Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: Wasp in the mouth & Conor’s printer

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Conor McNamara joins Ian Dennis and Alistair Bruce-Ball to reveal the stories behind the 5 Live commentaries. From Conor taking a printer to games, to using the facilities on the Anfield roof! They tell the tales you don’t normally get to hear. And ‘Clash of the Commentators’ is back!02:05 Upsetting football fans 06:00 Conor’s portable printer 09:20 Using Championship Manager to help prep 11:20 Getting the overnight sleeper train 15:00 What do commentators do at half-time? 18:05 The Anfield commode 22:30 Best derby to commentate on? 28:20 Commentating at late notice/without notes! 31:40 Most difficult pronunciations 35:45 Clash of the Commentators 41:50 Great Dictionary of Football CommentaryBBC Sounds / 5 Live Premier League / Women’s Super League commentaries this weekend: Sat 14 Dec, 15:00 – Liverpool v Fulham – 5 Live Sat 14 Dec, 17:30 – Nottingham Forest v Aston Villa – 5 Live Sun 15 Dec, 14:00 – Brighton v Crystal Palace – 5 Live Sun 15 Dec, 14:30 – Liverpool Women v Arsenal Women – 5 Sports Extra Sun 15 Dec, 16:30 – Man City v Man Utd – 5 Live

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcast. The Commentator's View with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis on the Football Daily. Hello, I'm Ian Dennis and welcome to The Commentator's View, episode four as we try and give you a glimpse of life behind the microphone as a five live football commentator alongside Alistair Bruce Ball and John Murray. However, those who listened at the end of last week will be aware we have a special guest, Ali. We do. Are we doing a sort of build-up, giving clues, surprise reveal, big sort of dry ice, open the curtain and here he is? I mean, Ian, we were talking right at the start of this series,

the very first episode we did, in terms of trying to work out the amount of games that we've commentated on for the BBC, and there's plenty plenty of them the chap who's coming on today will have commentated on easily as many if not more and not just for the BBC either good friend great commentator and his little giggle in the background almost gave it away a warm welcome to Connor McNamara it's great to be here long time listener first time. I've listened to all three shows. Can I just say, before we go any further, that there's obviously no John Murray this week.

Jeff on X on social media will be happy. Great and interesting pod. Having alienated South London by slagging off Selhurst. I'm not sure he did that. But you now claim that Stevie Wonder is a one-trick pony. Well, that was John. That was John Jeff. Who is in charge of the BBC Charm School?

And talking of being a charmer, were you aware, Connor, that the big man last week cast aspersions suggesting that you were going to be late? And here we are for the first time on time. Bang on time. So I did listen to that. And this was even before I knew I was coming on this show. I was only told a couple of days ago.

But obviously last week, John clearly felt that I was going to be coming on. So he said, we'll see. Does it start on time? So therefore, I've been here one hour, 15 minutes early just to absolutely guarantee that he will have nothing to scoff at because he would scoff. Just on Jeff's message, Ian, about upsetting football fans and who we might upset this week, I mean, that is one of the perils of our job as a football commentator because it is such a tribal sport. Even though we do our job totally impartially, you are always going to offend someone.

I always remember getting onto social media in the very early days, and I've been on Twitter as it was then for about I think probably six to nine months and I was sitting in a in a commentary box over in India covering cricket sitting alongside Simon Mann and we got chatting about social media because it was relatively new to us in those days and I said the weird thing is Simon you know commentating on football I thought I would get a lot more abuse on on social media for things i'd said and you know things you get wrong in commentaries whatever i said i've not seen a single thing he said have you seen them have you seen notifications on twitter i'd never

seen them honestly and i wish i'd never pushed the button because i pushed the button and there was about 4 000 messages lined up there all of which having a pop about something something i'd said when you turn on your phone after a game and you see that the fans of both teams think you're massively biased against them that's probably when you know you've you've hit it about right you know that you haven't sort of sugar-coated one way or the other it's it's always kind of reassuring to see oh good they weren't happy either but the thing is connor is that not only are you you know this cameo appearance that that might well mean that there are further appearances down the line, but you've gone to great lengths to be here. Of course, of course.

So I was at Arsenal last night, Arsenal-Monaco, which is a good game. And I'm doing Rangers-Tottenham tonight, obviously opposite ends of the country. But I took the advice of my esteemed colleague, Mr. Bruce Ball, and I took the Caledonian sleeper train from London. So I left the Emirates. As you know, you come out of the Emirates, Holloway Road,

they close the tube station. It's hard to get on there straight after a game. So I got one of those e-bikes that you see littered around the place all the time, hopped on one of them, whizzed down to Euston

where I saw hundreds of people in fancy dress. There was obviously some Christmas fancy dress and for a moment I thought because I haven't done the Caledonian Seaver before

and I thought of Trading Places and Dan Aykroyd and I thought the guy dressed up in the gorilla suit and it's going to be one of those kind of trains

and here we go and Jamie Lee Curtis in her Heidi outfit but sadly they were just going to a party elsewhere and I just got on the train and did all my prep for my games of the weekend.

So I'm fully versed, and here I am on time for John Murray. It's one of the things that amazes me about the way Connor operates. So, you know, often, Ian, we will run into each other at different games, because as I say, Connor works for different organizations. So recently, I would have been doing a game for Five Live. Connor would have been doing it for match of the day but but that idea of getting all his prep done on an overnight train probably not just for the rangers tottenham game but for for a week so i i got stuck at leipzig airport yesterday i had a four hour delay at the airport and normally i mean

for connor that would be you get two games prepped in that time. I don't have those skills. I cannot use that time to prep. And part of the reason for that is I need to get rulers out and different colored pens and laptops and phones and notebooks and, you know, the old geometry set. Whereas Connor is such a great operator, just literally flips the laptop open and away he goes. It's a great skill. But I find and I love that this is such a niche podcast. I mean, who else is going to talk about this stuff? But I mean, for me, I love doing work on things like trains,

hanging around lounges, you know, waiting places. Because what that means is when I go home, then I don't have to do any work. You know, I could just be daddy at home and I could play with the kids and the work is done. So when I'm out and about, that's when, you know, head is down and quite nerdishly tap it away. But then when I get home, then I'm not at work.

But I carry a red book around with me with all the Premier League appearances, which I update weekly. And everyone's been taking the mickey out of me that I've still got a floppy disk. But I remember with you, Conor, when you first joined, if you're travelling around up and down the country and across Europe, you used to carry with you a printer. Still do. Still do. Don't leave home without it. So you still turn up to the games,

and then you print off your notes at the stadium? Yeah, or if I'm in a hotel before I go, I've tried to have a discipline not to leave it. For a while there, I was doing it a little bit too much last minute. Just before the teams come out, I'd still be printing out the notes. i was doing a little bit too much last minute it'd be you know just before the teams come out i'd still be printed out the day and that was just a little bit frantic so now you know in a perfect world it should even be printed the night before now or the morning of but it gives me that flexibility if if if you just feel you need to answer and like you guys know it's never done you know the work is that you always think i could always have

one or two little extra bits that i could sort of brush up on here but yeah we talk about floppy disc i mean the very first commentary I ever did was 1997. And I was living in Student Hall of Residence. And we had some caper on the go. And I genuinely can't remember exactly. I think it was we were trying to be in a band and we were trying to send out CDs. But for some reason, we had bought a pack of labels to put on envelopes to send out these whatever student thing that we were creating.

So this this label thing was in the student flat. And I found out I was doing this commentary, and I'd never done a commentary before, and I didn't know what to do. And certainly one of the things I remember, I wrote out sort of two foolscap pages of intro, which I would never do nowadays. You would never do that,

because you can't just be looking down that. But anyway, I decided, I don't know the players, I don't know which players are going to be in which formation, and I won't know until the day. So I don't want to write all that in now. I wrote on the labels thinking I can stick them in positions. This was 1997 and what I'm very proud of is if you go to football grounds

now you see a lot of people using labels. Now it could be that someone else thought of it as well before me or whatever but I certainly didn't see it so I definitely take it as the imitation is the highest form of flattery in terms of the system for putting the players in their positions. Well, I doff my cap to you because I used to actually write out every team, every week, every game.

And so say, for instance, I'd do Liverpool on a Saturday, the Liverpool on a Wednesday. I'd write out the Liverpool players again until I saw you doing it. So, you know, plagiarism is alive and well as far as I'm concerned, because I use the labels and I copied you in that respect. So thank you. Question from the back of the classroom. I know the answer to it, but our listeners won't. I mean, people will be envisaging, Conor.

They've got printers at home. I've got my printer sitting on my right-hand side here. It is an enormous, big, boxy, heavy kind of thing. So what are we – how are you carrying that? Or, you know, have you got some super-duper – there he goes. He's unzipping the bag. This is going to be some actual radio commentary for you. I don't leave home without it.

It's here in my hand right now. So this is the printer that he... And what's actually remarkable is the same... I mean, I've had maybe three different versions of the same one, but the same one for like 20 years. It's weird how the technology hasn't improved. There isn't a better one that I know of. So that is quite sleek, thin,

black. Is that A4 size, that? Yeah, it's roughly A4 size, but obviously thicker. It's sort of two inches and roughly A4. It's like a big iPad. Like a pad of A4. I think this being the medium of audio to explain to you, why do you talk about labels?

So, you know if you were to draw out the formation of a team, so you put the goalkeeper at the top, then you draw out the back four in a line, then in front of them, the midfield, you know, the way you'd have at the start of a game on the TV graphics. So I want to have that in front of me. And a lot of this was when we were starting out first. You wouldn't have known the players so well. And you're going, who is the left back? And psychologically, and actually, Dedo, I know that you used to play the championship manager football game didn't you the computer game and i it was definitely part of it because i used to play that too much when i was young and it was definitely part of that in my head i could instantly go to yeah the left winger the right winger you know because i was

so used to looking at that game and the way you would you would pick the formation of your team so that was definitely part of it so i knew that during a game if the left fullback scores a goal or sends it across i I could instantly look down on my page and I would know exactly where that, you know, I'm not spooling down a list looking for number 17. I know positionally where he is on my notes. So I stick the players into their positions

on the board in front of me and then if a substitute comes on, I can just peel off the sticker of the substitute and stick him over the player he's replacing. So that's the sort of mechanics of it. Well, it was Mark Chatman who got me into championship manager slash football manager when i lived with him in the late 90s i remember doing a game with with norman hunter when i was at radio leeds and uh it was tottenham leeds united at white hart lane and tottenham i think needed to try and get a goal late on and they brought on gary doherty who we would think a big

central defender ginger ginger hair. Yeah, Irish. But he also had the ability to play up front as well. And so Norman was saying, well, I don't understand this, but because of I've been playing championship manager, I could say, well, actually, because at that point he was a utility player. He could play both

at the back and at front. I said, well, actually, I know he's going to go up front here. That's your scouting network. But you know what? This is why I had to give up playing that game, though. I stopped playing the computer game championship manager when I started working as a commentator. Because in the game, Gary Daugherty could sign for Sunderland and be a really prominent player. And in your head, you'd think, well, he played for Sunderland. He scored loads of goals for Sunderland. And it was like that distorted reality.

I had to shut that out of my life and concentrate on the actual real world. If you'd quoted Championship Manager to Norman Hunter, what would he have made of that, do you think? It would have probably said, really, pal? And then just moved on or something like that. Just before we move on, Connor, you look fresh this morning. Again, just to describe to our listeners, I mean, I got off that overnight sleeper train i did it the other way so i did scotland croatia a few weeks ago and had to get back to london as quick as i could and the best way to do that

other than driving and completely exhausted myself was getting the overnight sleeper but i remember getting off that train in euston at 6 45 in the morning and looking absolutely terrible and feeling terrible. You look good. Well, you're being very kind, ABB, as you always are, but let's just say you should be grateful that we are remotely in different locations that you can see and don't have to get quite the scent of the Irishman who's been sitting

on the train for seven hours. Can I just say that I'm not one to cause trouble or to throw anybody under the bus. Really? Yeah, I i mean it's like it's like i wouldn't have mentioned that gary flint's off last week you know traveled home in his boxer shorts after getting wet at saint james's park but there there is a disparity with the two experiences of the of the sleeper train because abb you actually had a bed connor did you have a bed no no i deceit i deceit, you know, I'm not quite the broadcasting royalty that ABB is now.

I'm not going to get those sort of privileges. Well, hang on, hang on. We're not talking a luxurious, expansive room with a big double bed just for me. We are talking an extremely narrow room with bunk beds in. There's got to be an article in the Daily Mail about this, I'll tell you. And sharing the room with our producer, George. Now, was george's brilliant idea to get the overnight sleeper he sorted out all the bookings and whatever and it would have been lovely to have our own rooms we couldn't afford that it what i have to say it was a really pleasurable experience certainly the first

part of it so we got on the train quite a few other people as well who'd been to the game to the scotland croatia game were doing the same thing we all sat down in the dining car had a plate of haggis neeps and tatties and a couple of drinks and this is all at about half past midnight and then george and i sort of shuffled back to our compartment and there was a lot of you know john was using the phrase uh after you claude there was quite a lot of sort of slightly awkward trying to maneuver around in this little in this little cabin who's sleeping top bunk who's sleeping bottom bunk do you get into your pajamas do you just stay in your clothes you know i think george was trying to stay up to watch the uh what was the big fight on that was on that night

oh there was a fight on tyson and jake paul or something like that yeah that one that's right but i decided to get my head down and actually i didn't hear george snoring george has never complained about my snoring the only snoring I heard was the compartment next door. And there was someone next door who was properly, properly going at it. But I enjoyed it. I'd do it again. Well, don't tell that to the BBC hierarchy. They'll have us all travelling on the night sleet.

I think as well. You'll be sharing with John Murray. I think, oh, what a great, why is this so exciting? It's because usually when we go to games we're into our own cars and we're driving off separately so to have that little bit of a social is a real treat

for domestic gaming. That's usually the good thing about being on a trip. Now we have big news. Big news on the pod and no false alarms this week

because our email address is up and running. It is fully functional and the floodgates have opened so I feel as if we should have some fanfare music. TCV at bbc.co.uk. TCV at bbc.co.uk. And Sam in Berkshire says, hi gents, really enjoying the podcast so far i have a couple of questions i'd like to ask if that's okay no it's not sam we're going to move on

sorry uh what do you do at half time in a match and when do you ever have time off it must be difficult with midweek games and international tournaments in the summer thanks so much sam in berkshire so what do you do at half time? I'm pretty sure, Della, you like to hang around and sort of stay stationary, don't you? I, for some reason, have this urge, I need to move around and walk around and sort of decompress for a second, so I'll go to the loo, even if I don't have to go to the loo, sort of where I'll go and get

a cup of tea, or I'll go and have a biscuit, or have a chat with someone, and then I like to come back to the desk and sort of be refreshed for the second half, but I know that some people, you know, very much feel I'm here now, and I'm staying till till the full-time whistle the advantage of staying and sitting in the seat sometimes ian i think particularly probably in your role more than any other in in the saturday three o'clock commentary is if you keep the headphones on you can still hear everything else that's going on in the program so you've got 20 minutes of radio still in your ears

that you can then refer to and be aware of other events that are going on. Equally, I think with Connor, sometimes, and I think particularly if you get into a run of, if you've got one of those weeks where you're doing a game, you know, I don't know, Monday. You've got three games in a week or whatever, and your head is so full of stuff. Sometimes it does really benefit you, I think, sometimes just to take the headphones off and just go and take two minutes and sort of reset before the second half my my for me it always depends on what ground i'm at if i get to the toilets or the press room you know there and back in 15 minutes comfortably without any stress i i always have that sort of horrible nightmare that you're going to get stuck somewhere not get back and then the second half starts you're not even there it's like some ground i mean obviously anfield's example if you did want

to go into the press room, realistically, you'd have to take a lift, which then puts a bit of jeopardy into that. I do remember years ago doing a game at the Parc de France in Paris, a stadium I wouldn't have known very well. And at halftime, I went wandering, looking for a cup of tea

and whatever kind of concourse, it's an old stadium I went out and then they sort of all looked the same when I came back and I didn't know which one was in and I was on the right. And it was literally, the teams were coming back out and I didn't know which one was in and I was on the right and it was literally the teams were coming back out and I don't know where the commentary position is I remember that was a bit of a panic the thing is Sam as well for a three o'clock game is that we'd have to be in position

for around 20 past half past one because we get the team news around then as well so you've essentially got four hours of sitting in one position. But talking of toilet breaks, Conor, your first trip to Anfield, when we used to be on the other side, what is now the Sir Kenny Dalgleish stand. But back in the day... Centenary stand, they called it, was it? We'd have to get...

Yeah, we would. We'd have to get... Remember that rickety ladder? We'd have to climb the wooden ladder. And what was it, 90 minutes before kick-off, they would pull the ladder up? That's right, yeah. I remember I once did a game with Tony Pulis,

and it was a Merseyside derby, and Tony said, take me to the point. Because we were in the press room on the other side, so it was a really long walk, so I said, it's just up there, Tony. Take me a bit further. So I took him to the corner of the old Kemling Road stand, you say, the Centurion Road stand.

We're just up there. Take me, I want to see it at the top. Took him all the way to the top, up the stairs. I said, it're just up there take me i want to see at the top took him all the way to the top up the stairs i said it's just up that ladder i want to go up we climbed up the rickety ladder and we got up there and he said i'm not going down now i'm staying here so i had to then go all the way back down to the press room but you're right an hour and a half before they would draw up the ladder wouldn't they yeah it wasn't even attached to anything so so we used to go up this ladder so it was the reason they put up the ladder wouldn't they yeah it wasn't even attached to anything so so we used to go up this ladder so it was the reason they put up the ladder because the ladder went down

onto what are normal seats you know spectator seats so they couldn't have that down during the game but when we went when we went up that ladder we sort of ended up on the roof of the stadium great views of liverpool and the mersey and all that and then you'd come back down a little hatch onto the sort of suspended gantry that hands down but obviously as you referred to you and you could you know realistically you're going to be up there for four hours they had to factor in toilet breaks and they had this little commode do you remember it was like a little thing you'd have at a caravan or a you know a mobile home they had this like really small in case of emergencies thing on the roof of anfield which uh which people had to

relieve themselves in. Didn't you, though, ask Conor and the guy, and he said it was like the luxury, you were looking for it, you couldn't find it originally. Have I made that bit up? No, no, you're right. Actually, yeah, the first, yes, you're dead right. The first time I was there,

so I walked down, did the scary walk that Ali said, and I'm sitting there, this is all fine. The ladder's up now, you can't go down. And I thought, what happens if you need to go to the loo? And he said, oh yeah, don't worry, there's the VIP loo is up there, you know. And in my head, I'm thinking,, this is all fine. The ladder is up now, you can't go down. And I thought, what happens if you need to go to the loo? And he said, oh yeah, Dory, there's the VIP loo is up there. And in my head, I'm thinking, here we go. It's going to be Donald Trump's toilet. It'll be like gold taps and all that.

And then it was just this little shed on the roof with a little commode in it. Hilarious. It was one of those commentary positions, though, if genuinely, if you had vertigo, if you had a problem with heights, that walk, once you got up that ladder, I mean, climbing ladders is one thing, but you had vertigo, if you had a problem with height, that walk, once you got up that ladder, I mean, climbing ladders is one thing, but you had a walk, and it was perfectly, it was safe,

but it was one of those sort of narrow little gangways. You could see through everything, right? You could see through everything, couldn't you? So if you looked down and you didn't like that, then you could really have the wobbles. But the view of the football, once you got to the position, right above it was, I mean, it was proper bird's eye view, wasn't it, right on top of it. Two things about working with Tony Pulis, which you'll know very well,

but just in case any of our listeners ever end up producing him at a football match, you'll need stashes of chocolate and green tea. Green tea is crucial if you're working with Tony Pulis. And Sam, in relation to your other question, do you ever have time off recording this podcast? It feels that we don't the email by the way is tcv at bbc.co.uk uh so and also ali and this will probably come up in

future weeks we don't have time now we've had many requests for the aubergine lamb curry recipe beep soul says the nation demands it yeah so this is a recipe that i gave to john a while back so in fact john came to stay he must have been doing some football down on the south coast uh and and and sort of dropped in and we hosted him and lucy cooked in this delicious curry that we eat quite a lot i mean it's not our recipe it's a jamie oliver recipe it wouldn't be that hard to find but when we have more time i will i will talk i will talk you through it many many many many years ago uh me and abb were briefly flatmates. Do you remember that? Yeah.

I remember you cooked. It's still spoken about with me and my wife. You cooked this Italian sausage pasta thing. Oh, yeah. So we need to get the ABB recipe page for the... Spin-off series. The Football Daily Podcast. On BBC Sounds. Weekend mornings on Five Live.

Saturdays from 9am. Patrick Kielty. Ah, good morning, folks. There you are. And at 11, Fighting Talk. With Rick Edwards. It's the debates you have with your mates in the pub or the group chat, thrashed out furiously on national radio. Sundays from 10.

Colleen Murray. Conversation, connection and community. That's what this show's all about. Weekend mornings on BBC Radio 5 Live. The commentator's view on the Football Daily podcast. BBC Radio 5 Live. 5 Live commentaries this weekend. Liverpool-Fulham is the 3 o'clock game.

Myself and Chris Sutton, the usual goal service. Nottingham Forest-Aston Villa is at 5.30. That's Chris Wise and Mark Albrighton. And then on Sunday, ABB is with Mark Schwarzer. Brighton against Crystal Palace. That's a 2 o'clock kick-off. And then John Murray is back. He is working, incidentally.

He's not on a day off. It's the Manchester derby at the Etihad City United at 4.30. Leon Osman is alongside him. And also, don't forget, talking of commentaries, it would be remiss not to mention this on this podcast, that the BBC is looking for its next generation of sports commentators. The deadline is the 20th of December, and if you want more details,

just go on the website and look for New Voices and you'll find more details there. Talking of derbies, what's the best derby that you've ever done? For me, I used to really enjoy the old firm derbies, but I think they've spoiled them in recent years

because they don't allow the large allocation of away fans and it's really taken away from it and I think you know they should look at this again and try to to realize you know what harnesses that global interest in the Scottish top flight and you know I remember going to those games and you would literally have hairs the back of your neck standing up and it was yes you know and I appreciate there was probably huge policing costs and there was a lot of, you know, negative ends to it as well.

But as a spectacle, it really elevated that game, which I think it is maybe in recent years a struggle to get to. I remember doing Tyne Weir derbies with Jude Denno back in the day when they both would have been in the Premier League and they were always really good fun. I think particularly the ones at Sunderland for some reason, that they'd have the sort of home advantage, Stadium of Light was kind of new in those days and that

was always really fun, really good fun. And then the other one I mentioned that kind of surprised me, and I think growing up in Ireland as a kid, I never realised this until I did it, was quite how vicious Blackburn Burnley is. They absolutely hate each other. And I remember there was a story, I remember doing it, they both would have, would they both have been in the Premier League or was it a cup game, I don't know, but I remember doing the game years and years ago, and there was a story where there was a Burnley fan

who lived right next door to Ewood Park, but because they segregated the fans so much, he had to leave, he had to travel all the way to Burnley to come back on a bus because otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed into the away end. That's how strict they were at keeping the home and away fans apart.

I remember doing, it's just popped into my head just now actually because I've scribbled a few of the derbies down, Southampton Portsmouth, where Steve Claridge was our summariser. And I think we'd said to Steve, look, I know obviously being, you know, former Portsmouth, I mean, Steve played for everyone, didn't he?

But you're going to have to be a bit careful sort of getting to the ground and, you know, would you like someone to walk with you or we'll get you a car and drop you to the ground? Yeah, no, I'll be absolutely fine, no worries. I remember standing in the commentary position there and Steve arriving, like puffing and panting, pouring with sweat. He'd basically been chased. He'd been chased by a load of Southampton fans getting to the ground.

So that's another one which people I don't think necessarily think of and doesn't get played all that often, certainly not at the moment because they're not in the same divisions. But that one's got a real edge to it. I mean, Ian, I'm at, and I'm not counting this, this is not a derby and I'm not even starting this conversation. I'm at Brighton Crystal crystal palace which is a rivalry and it's a very sort of niche yeah special rivalry sort of rooted back in the late 70s

so there's real feeling to that one but i'm not counting that as a derby so we will not hear you refer to is it the m23 derby you will not you will not hear me say that you will not hear me say that on sunday no no i've got a feeling that the producers now be listening out, just waiting, and all of a sudden next week you're going to say, I know, Ali, you said this, but then all of a sudden there goes the clip. And then, like you said, the time we had Derby as well. I mean, my first experience was at Roker Park and the old main stand. And there was a paddock area either side of the tunnel at Roker Park,

and we were quite low down in the press box. And you'd have Sunderland fans putting their hands on the ledge and hoisting, pulling themselves up to give abuse at the Newcastle summarisers, such as Mick Martin or John Anderson, who were there for the local radio. I mean, it was vitriolic. I've just remembered as well, one of my favourite games I've ever done was Bristol City-Bristol Rovers at Ashton Gate, because I used to work for BBC Radio Bristol,

and those were special games. So you'd have Bristol Rovers under Ian Holloway in my time there, Bristol City under Danny Wilson. I think that night, I think it was a December night, midweek night, and I think Bristol City won the game, and they were sort of on top at the time. But those were great derbies as well. And the other thing, Ian, just before, I did a little bit of research ahead of today's podcast

because John last week was talking about how commentators will number the derbies but not do that for other games. So I did actually look up the numbers. So the Merseyside derby that didn't happen at the weekend would have been the 245th uh the old firm derby has been played 442 times and the manchester derby that john is at and he's going to have to put this in the commentary now is going to be the 195th edition

of the manchester derby but you know when john says we never mention anything else apart from derbies i was in gerona during the week and as you know the the liverpool historian jed ray is superb with his facts and figures and he told me that it was gerona because they'd never been in european competition before the first english side they've ever faced and then in fact arsenal go there next month as well. But Jed had told me that Girona were Liverpool's 138th different European opposition. And they were the 13th different Spanish side that Liverpool have faced in their illustrious European history. So I trotted those stats out. And then I was actually thinking, so we do do it on other occasions apart from derbies. But talking of the Merseyside derby

with it being postponed have you ever got to a ground a stadium to find it called off yeah I did a game uh years ago it was Chelsea Stamford Bridge against Aston Villa I'm pretty sure and it was called off because of bad weather um I also remember the when Princess Diana died I was supposed to do the game Liverpool were against Newcastle was it Newcast Diana died, I was supposed to do the game. Liverpool were against... Newcastle. Was it? Newcastle, yeah. So I was in Liverpool for that day. I didn't go to the stadium.

We sort of word got through before. And then, of course, it happened the whole time during COVID. It was so frustrating. For us guys, you do the prep and you're all ready to go. And then within hours notice, the game was called off.

But those were kind of weird times. And as a commentator, you could be on the beneficiary of it as well. I remember very early days of Five Live, the first time I ever got to commentate on a Champions League game for Five Live was because John and maybe Alan Green were over in Barcelona. Barcelona were playing

Newcastle, and the game was called off because of really bad rain. And I was supposed to update at the old Highbury, Arsenal against, I can't remember where they were playing, Valencia maybe. And because the other game was called off, suddenly my game became the commentary game, whichbury, Arsenal against, I can't remember where they were playing, Valencia maybe. And because the other game was called off, suddenly my game became the commentary game, which then, you know,

all three of us remember in those days, that's a big deal. We're suddenly, oh, wow, I'm getting to do a game. Obviously with no prep, no co-commentator, Henry Winter did the first half with me and then he'd go off and write his, yeah, he did. And then he'd go write his article in the second half. So I was breathing through my ears ears as they say in the in the industry so that's

a challenge in itself isn't it because i don't know about you two if i'm doing a reporting game my levels of prep are nowhere near as they are for a commentary game so if you're just turning up to do arsenal against i don't know dynamo kiev in in in a europe competition, you'll have gone with the bare minimum, I would imagine. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's worlds apart. I mean, it's multiple of 20 or 30 times the work that you would do.

But then, you know, in those one-off moments, the adrenaline gets you through, doesn't it? You just, you know, it's the classic less is sometimes more, right? Yeah, I think it puts you on your mettle sometimes, Ian. So, you know, it's never a good idea to go into a commentary under prep, but it can be dropped on you in that instance i

remember a few seasons ago uh west brom opening game of the season uh lovely sunny day sitting in the commentary position there all my notes in front of me gust of wind takes the notes off the gantry down into the fans below and all the notes i've done all week for the game have completely gone and so then you're just doing the commentary without any notes at all but actually it sharpens you up in a way and you've really got to switch on and you've not got that crutch to lean on and i think sometimes for younger commentators it's actually quite a good test and experience and you know if you if you do have a sort of safe space to do it in try and do a commentary without your notes and just rely totally on what

you're seeing would it yeah absolutely did you hear that happened to john acres last week i was at the the man united forest game which he was doing for five live and when he it was the very stormy so when he got out of the car in the car park apparently his notes fell from his hand and in that classic um what's the you know the what's the thing but uh what was it that always lands down oh yeah if you've got, like, buttered toast, it's always the buttered side. Yeah, the toast, yeah. So whatever way he'd been doing his notes in the car,

when he got out of the car, the wind blew, and then it turned onto the inked side, the side that he's written on. That lands face down, totally smudged. He showed it to me. You couldn't, indecipherable, you couldn't read the notes. My notes at West Brom, actually, I've just remembered, it wasn't a gust of wind. It was a wasp flew into my mouth while i was talking and i panicked

and i swished my hand at the note so i actually flipped my i flipped my notes and honestly just watching them fly in the air and just disappear i can't remember who the summarizer was sitting alongside me we both just looked at each other like this is five live sports the football daily podcast quick one before we get our quiz heads on we've been past this question from the euro leagues gang you can listen to that podcast also on the football daily feed plenty of reaction to the atalanta real madrid game in particular but they ask this who is the most difficult european player to pronounce i will let con have a little think about that because i knew that question was coming i've got a couple for you one is a story from a little while ago which

actually takes place at goodison park and i've got kevin gallica sitting alongside me a summarizer ahead of everton against aek athens everton had signed that summer the russian winger dinya billy let enough which actually i've just said it there it just isn't isn't that difficult had signed that summer the Russian winger, Dinyar Bilyaletdinov, which actually, I've just said it there, it just isn't that difficult compared to some of the ones we do. He was going to make his first start for the club, and we kind of got word that it was happening. And I was sitting next to Kevin, ready to go for the 6.30 desk on Five Lives. So before we get on air at 7 o'clock, we tend to write a sort of 30-second preview piece.

And I knew I was going to have to mention his name in the piece. And because it's slightly long or whatever i was just practicing so i sit next to kevin and i was going billy electing off billy electing off billy electing off billy electing off anyway sure enough get to the piece he's sitting right alongside the 630 desk comes i must have tripped over it four times in the bulletin i couldn't say it honestly and he was his shoulders were shaking sitting next to me it's just like you've done all that practice and it just gets in your head don't you if you think i'm gonna have a problem with that you're gonna have a problem even if you're reading a script and you know that name is coming up you'll you'll make a mistake earlier in the script i always remember when when cesar aspila

quetta joined chelsea uh his first game i was with robbie savage for the commentary and robbie just couldn't no matter what way we wrote it out no matter all the hyphens all the splitting it up it just wasn't happening it's just like i remember when i did the uh the cricket back in the day um and my old sports set the sri lankans were touring and they had a bowler called would you gonna adina and i for the life of me i could not say this pace bowler's name would you go to edina and that was in the time when they had like tilica ratney and whoever else anyway he'd go hey young id young how do you it would mock me in the office because i couldn't say it and i thought i'm going to show you so i took home the sri lankan touring party and i memorized them so the next morning he

went hey young id i bet you can't say when's you gonna with dina and i. I rolled it off the top of my tongue like that, and that quietened him down. The other ones that I think are really tricky are the Georgians, partly because they're so long. So if you're trying to get a passing move together and it's moving quickly, I wrote some of them down today. Well, obviously there's Kvaretskalia, you know, which lots of Ks and Vs and whatever. Kvekvaskiri is in that team. Gokalajvili. But if you're trying to do those, bang, bang, bang, bang.

It's hard to rattle them off. Oh, I find them tricky. But at least what I find with those, if you break them up into four syllables, at least they scan what they are. Bounce along. Obviously, we don't get to it in football much, but I've done the Fijians in rugby.

And that, you have to have heard it. The way it sounds bears no resemblance to the letters and other. The Portuguese players are a great example where you will listen to Bruno Fernandes say his name and you go, hang on, who's that? What? Bruno Fernandes. Oh, that's the Bruno Fernandes that Blazer Man United?

Or, you know, Nuno Mendes. So to be right, it goes back to the whole oligarch solchair or in holland it was dennis burke comp sometimes if you say it too correctly yeah it comes across as pompous or or you know you could be you could be wrong but you could be right one of my favorite things listening to five live commentary and and john murray as you know i think he relishes words doesn't he just saying words he relishes the use of the english language i mean if you listen to him this week his scene set of the juventus manchester city game about oh the alps the fresh alpine breezes

the snow top mountains and all of that but if you listen to him with the portuguese players the joe wows hey i mean he really rolls a rolls a João. Next time you hear a Five Live commentary with a João in it, John's João is quite special. There's no muscle in his face that doesn't get used in the pronunciation of João. Well, because there's no John this week, Connor, you are taking on the Quizmaster duties. Right, let's give it a crack. So we have Ali versus Ian.

Will it be third time lucky for Ian? My understanding is the score so far is that John is one from one, Ali's one from one, and Ian is zero from two. Does that sound right to you guys? Yes, it's like the Champions League table, this, isn't it?

Everyone's going to have to play the same amount of games against each other, but by the end of the season, it is going to be like that giant table. And if it's the Champions League, you can rapidly go from top to bottom in one go. So John beat Ian at the Nations League Stadia quiz. Ali beat Ian on Leicester's title triumph. And we're going to do it slightly different this week.

We're going to swap the penalty shootout, the Sutton-Dett structure. We're going for a 30-second stop clock. So it's going to be one at a time. Ali, you're going to go first, and I've been told that Ian is to be sent out of the room. Take off your headphones. Disconnect your audio, Ian. There's going to be the same questions asked to you both

and see who gets the best score. He won't come back. Now, he's taking off the headphones. You see, we work in radio, Ian, and we know you can still hear the headphones when they're on the desk. You've got to, like, disconnect. I want you to pull out the...

Look at his face. I want to see the jack of the headphones. Pull it all out. There he goes. Okay, he's done. Right, Ali, Manchester Derby this weekend. I want you to name as many players as you can that have scored in a Manchester Derby

since the year 2000. Okay. So wrong answer's not a problem. As in I can just rattle off names and it's just how many are going to be right. You've got 30 seconds. Exactly. Okay. And I hope someone else is counting these because I'm never going to be able to keep

track of this. Okay. Okay. So let's officially. Three, two, one, go. Okay. Weirdly, I'm going to say Michael Owen, Mario Balotelli, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez, Sergio Aguero.

Who am I not thinking of? Nani, why am I going for that Manchester United team? Marcus Rashford must have done it. Anthony Martial, David Silva for Manchester City, Kevin De Bruyne. Who else plays for them? I think I've already said Carlos Tevez. Michael Carrick didn't score many goals. Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham.

Who's that Mr. Roy? Hardly a hesitation. Hardly a hesitation. That's incredible. And I think most of them were right as well. Alistair Bruce Ball, you got 15 correct answers in 30 seconds. That's pretty much non-stop. So no pressure, Denno.

So, Ali, you don't need to take off your headphones now because you've obviously already partaken. So you can enjoy this. Are you ready, Ian? Yeah, I am. Manchester Derby this weekend. I want you to name as many players as you can who have scored in a Manchester derby since the year 2000.

Your 30 seconds starts now. Fernando Silva Rooney Fernandez Vidic Ferdinand Shaw Gnacho Tell you what Tell you what there

The music The music Really does I find it so off-putting it does i can't believe i didn't say harland i didn't say harland did i i didn't say harland that's amazing well i started off with a theme as soon as you said 2000 i thought right go back sean go to paul dick off and then all of a sudden the music then and you go down a line and. And then all of a sudden, the music then, and you go down a line and then you, and all of a sudden you're thinking, oh, I've already said him

and you get out of a rhythm. That was harder than I thought. I went first name and surname. Then I was just rattling off surnames, which is obviously the sensible thing to do. That's what you do as a commentator, but that's going to be close.

While they count those answers up, Ian, can I just do a little plug? So straight after we've recorded this, I am prepping for the You're Better Than That Christmas special, which we're recording tomorrow. So if people are aware of this show, we've done it for the last couple of years. It's the quiz, the sort of football sporting quiz that we started in lockdown, and we've kept it going as a sort of annual festive thing.

So this year we've got chris sutton and karen pickering taking on izzy christiansen and julianne laurent i'm the quiz master we're recording tomorrow and it will go out a couple of times i think on the network on five live over the festive period but it will also be available as a podcast so there's plenty of quizzing and silliness coming on the way with that oh looking forward to that i wouldn't have got 15 there. That's a third defeat. Foden scored a hat-trick, didn't he, against... Foden.

Didn't say Foden. Was it last season? Yeah. No, I didn't say Foden. We've got the scores coming through. Okay, this is interesting. That's going to be tight. This is interesting.

So, Alistair Bruce Ball has 15 correct answers. Ian Dennis gave 15 answers. Yeah, but, well, I didn't think I'd even name 15, but... You gave 15, so if all 15 are right, it's a tie. There's a couple of problems. Number one, you named Wayne Rooney twice. And Paul Dickoff never scored in a Manchester derby since 2000. So our winner this week is Mr. Alistair Bruce.

Congratulations, Ali. Do you think that John Murray would have beaten the pair of us at that? Or do you think he speaks too slowly to actually do well in a game like that? You've hit the nail on the head John is a wonderful guy, I look up to him and admire him in so many ways, not least because he's way taller than me, but he does not do things quickly, so that would

have been a Danny Welbeck Darius Bessel Joao Cancelo Well when he's back, you can be next up against him ali and we'll uh winner stays on and we'll see how he gets on uh important points to address when it comes to our great dictionary of football commentary steve a tune fan from newcastle has been in touch it strikes me

that you're actually compiling a great glossary of commentary so i refer you to var due to the clear and obvious error in your chosen terminology all the best keep up the great work steve is absolutely spot on there ian and i prefer that because that actually rolls off the tongue a bit better great glossary has the alliteration the great glossary of football commentary. Glossary, having looked that up as well, a collection of words pertaining to a specific topic. Our specific topic being football commentary. Steve is bang on. It's a glossary.

It's a glossary. So hands up, Steve. You're right. I don't think John will mind if we rename his feature when he's not here. I'm sure he'll ever say. I'm sure he will. We can look at some of Steve's suggestions then. To clatter.

Verb. To smash into other players or to strike the ball forcefully against the goal's posts. Rooted at the bottom of the table, stroke Football League. Used recently to describe Carlisle United as propping up the entire Football League. Compare that to languish. And the noun woodwork, to describe the metal stanchions that make up the goals. Not sure when goals were last made of wood, but this is a popular phrase used widely in commentating.

Clattered against the woodwork. I think it's right. If you're looking for your shoes in the bottom of your pile of clothes or whatever, you don't say it's rooted at the bottom. You would only use that for a team at the bottom of the table, isn't it? It's rooted at the bottom, is only used in that sense. Look, frankly, I use woodwork and people complain about it and I don't

care. Everyone, you know, for me, the whole beauty of language around football is you're trying to convey very complicated things in succinct ways. You know, so if I said the winger sends a cross into the centre and the centre forward spins on a sixpence or swivels on the sixpins and scores,

you all know what happened there. He's in a really tight space. He's had to swim, you know, 106 degrees without me having to say all that in a big sentence. And I think woodwork comes into that for me. It's like everyone knows what it means. And I don't like the pedantic nature of, oh, well, it's actually made of perspex these days.

No, I mean, people know what it means. But I may well be in a minority with that. I think I usework i also use the word clatter i'm quite fond of using the word clatter to clatter yeah great great commentary tip actually and in terms of this this glossary that we're putting together one of the first lessons i ever learned was from tony adamson our former golf correspondent and one of the very first open championships i ever went to i was sitting with him in the in the little sort of caravan where we got packed up and ready to go and got your waterproofs on and your notes and your bottles of water and whatever to go out on the golf course and i looked at his sheet of notes and he had written down maybe 20 different words

that you could use to describe a ball rolling towards a hole on the green because the most of what we do in golf commentary is commentating on putts and you know so words like speeding bobbling tracking chasing running whatever but it was just a great lesson in you know so clatters another one there's different ways you can go into tackles and clatters an absolute classic in football commentary but i just thought that was such a good thing and i wouldn't do it i wouldn't put it on my football commentary notes but i just think you know having a think sometimes about different words that you can use i mean i always remember back in the days connor was talking about when he and i shared a flat together for six months or so when i lived in manchester i remember you saying to me connor

that you i did you try and learn a new word every day or you you or you would you know whatever you were reading at the time you would pull out words and note them down? No, it was idioms. I got a book about idioms and I found it really useful. And I guess like that's what a cliche is, if you know what I mean. It's like an expression that has come that everyone instantly knows what you mean when you say it. I guess in the modern terms, kids would say memes or whatever. But I remember that I had this thing where every day I tried to learn a new idiom.

And I do definitely think it helped. The word that I always think that you use in commentary that you don't use anywhere else, or actually this is what it annoys when I use it, but I can't think of any better way to do it, is campaign. So we will say, right, in terms of goal involvements this season, Mo Salah has been involved in 21

goals. It's the most of any Premier League player, this campaign. And the reason you have to say campaign is because you don't want to repeat season. But none of us ever do a commentary where we don't say campaign 35 times. How has nobody found a better way of doing this? But there's so many sentences that you need to say the word season in twice, so you have to replace it with campaign instead. And I just don't like it.

It's very commentator talk. It's not how a normal person would speak. What you were saying there about Tony Adamson though, Ali, sometimes when I listen back to my commentary, I don't listen back as often as I used to do because I once heard Pat Nevin talking about me on Five Live and he says it's the first sign of madness because you're listening for a mistake.

And I would. I'd listen to a commentary and then I'd listen to the mistake but I still listen back a lot but what I do is that if I say I like he drives the ball across field I will and if I use it too many times I will make a note on the top of my sheet for the next week do not say drive yeah just because you're looking for that that variation all the time so thank you for your suggestions Steve and we've certainly

taken on board the glossary oh no we've got to decide I'm being told we've got to decide oh we've got to decide got to decide okay so one of

let's let Connor decide to clatter rooted at the bottom of the table or the woodwork I'm going to go I'm going to go rooted at the bottom

because woodwork and clatter can be used in other in other parts of life and culture but rooted at the bottom because woodworking clatter can be used in other parts of life and culture but rooted at the bottom only gets used in football so let's go with that. Okay, rooted at the bottom has been added and don't forget questions you can send them in to

tcv at bbc. Really rolling off the tongue. Well, I'm still astonished that it's working. tcv at bbc.co.uk A reminder well I'm still astonished that it's working TCV at BBC dot co dot UK

a reminder of our five live commentaries then at the weekend Liverpool Fulham

Saturday three o'clock Forest Aston Villa follows at five thirty and on Sunday

Alistair Bruce Ball Brighton Crystal Palace at two and the Manchester Derby

John Murray and Leon Osman from four thirty thanks for listening the next episode

of the Football Daily will be in focus with Chris Wilder and I hope he doesn't actually mention that I damaged his driveway when I once stayed at his house. The lawyers will be listening with interest. So that's something to look forward to.

On Sunday it's the Premier League review. I think Clinton Morrison is going to be on the panel for that. So here's something to look forward to. On Sunday, it's the Premier League review. I think Clinton Morrison is going to be on the panel for that. So here's one to throw ahead to Clinton. Favourite striker in the Premier League and why? Let's see if he picks up on that on the Premier League review on Sunday. And we'll be back, the commentators, next week. And our thanks to Conor McNamara for his guest appearance. Thanks, guys. Great fun.

It's not a one-off, Conor. I hope that we get a chance to speak to you again. I won't do the sleeper train next time. I'll be more awake. Anyway, we'll be back next week. See you then. In the shadows of Glasgow, two crime families rose to power. You're either with the Daniel family or you're with the Lyons family. There's no in-between. A brutal war for control of Glasgow's lucrative drug trade

that still rages today. Police think it's the work of a criminal gang. Join me, Livvy Haydock, as I investigate the battle that shattered the old-school rules of crime. They're just terrorising people, whatever they're meant. Gangster, the story of the Daniels and the Lyons. Listen on BBC

Sounds. Danny Welbeck. Darius Bessel. Joao Cancelo. That's just to remind you of another story. That'd be a good one to tell on this. So I was doing a game

with Tony Pulis and we were talking about great comebacks or whatever. And I said, you know, I mean, even if you're not a fan of the team, I mean, things like that, that famous Paul Dickoff game at Wembley when he scores the goal. I mean, it doesn't matter. You know, I mean, that was just a great story. And, you know, your heart would have to go out there. And he was, look, give me the evils. And I didn't, it didn't click with me.

It didn't click. That Tony Pulis was the opposition manager manager he'd lost that playoff final because that is also like i just didn't chap is telling the story against himself the other night we're sitting alongside moise the other night when he chap has slagged off the europa conference league and moise is sitting there it was lovely it was very funny