Football Daily - The Debrief: Merseyside mayhem & Kane goal beats Celtic

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Steve Crossman has reaction as the final Merseyside derby at Goodison Park ends in a dramatic draw. He’s joined by Gary Cahill, Pat Nevin, correspondent John Murray and senior reporter Ian Dennis. Also hear from last-gasp goalscorer James Tarkowski, Virgil van Dijk and David Moyes. And catch up with Brendan Rodgers after Celtic were beaten by Bayern Munich in their UEFA Champions League play-off first leg.00:25 Everton rescue dramatic draw 04:30 James Tarkowski INTERVIEW 10:30 Virgil van Dijk INTERVIEW 16:40 David Moyes INTERVIEW 20:35 Celtic beaten by Bayern Munich 26:20 Brendan Rodgers INTERVIEWBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this weekend: Sat 15 Feb 1500 Man City v Newcastle, Sat 15 Feb 1730 Crystal Palace v Everton, Sun 16 Feb 1400 Liverpool v Wolves, Sun 16 Feb 1630 Tottenham v Man Utd.

BBC Sounds music radio podcast. The football daily podcast. The debrief with Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Quite the night on five live sports. Celtic won Bayern Munich 2 in the Champions League playoff first leg. So we'll be there shortly, but we're going to start with Everton 2 Liverpool 2. Four goals, four red cards in the final Merseyside Derby at Goodison Park. Jon

Murray. The final Goodison Park Merseyside Derby certainly had a sting in the tail just as Liverpool looked to be coasting to victory after Mo Salah's ruthless finish in the 73rd minute. The last attack of the match Mikhilenko's bouncing cross all the wayrd minute. The last attack of the match, Mikhulenko's bouncing cross all the way across the box was lashed into the roof of the net by the Everton captain James Tarkovsky from 10 yards at the Gladys Street end to rescue the Blues a point with virtually the last derby kick at this stadium. Fans joined in the celebrations, then someone plucked out the corner flag and waved it.

When the final whistle did go it all kicked off as Ducure and Jones manhandled each other. Referee Michael Oliver showed them both two yellow cards and reds and also straight reds to Arna slot and his assistant Sipka Holshoff after something they said to the referee and all after Beto's early goal and McAllister's equaliser in the early exchanges. It was quite a derby finale at the Grand Old Stadium. Four goals and four red cards. Everton 2 Liverpool 2. Premier League and Champions League winner Gary Cahill is with us evening Gary. How are we doing okay? Oh good if that was you, you would have just been keeping a distance, very calm, very chilled out, not getting involved in all that, right?

That's a proper derby. A proper derby game today, I felt. Yeah, rolling back the years, I thought it was, do you know what? On the hole, it was played in a great way. You know, very passionate fight in the game. I know it spilled over towards the end of the game, but like I said, on a hole, I thought the game

was very competitive, tackles flying in, yeah, proper derby. What a goal as well in what is almost the last kick of a Merseyside derby at Goodison Park, Gary. What an end and what a finish, like you said, it was fitting, wasn't it, to say, you know, the last derby at Goodison, think of it and come off that field feeling like they've won the game and the finish from Tarkovsky right at the death there was phenomenal. It's a finish like a striker who's rocketed in and I think it's added to it didn't it? It added to the atmosphere when they had to wait you know you had the VAR looking at the offside, a little bit of a foul maybe before and then give the Everton fans another chance to celebrate when it got given so yeah phenomenal

end to the game. John the noise when that went in the back of the net must have been absolutely unbelievable. Honestly, Steve, my ears are ringing here and that's been the case right since I first got to Goodison Park this evening. People were on the streets, we saw the scenes as we did. Remember when Everton were battling against relegation and they lined the streets for the buses to arrive? That's what happened tonight and smoke bombs going off you know there was blue smoke in the air it was thick the air outside the ground singing the songs once they got inside the stadium you know I mean you could barely hear the

Z cars theme as the players came out it was that loud until Salah scored then the mood completely changed Everton barely laid a glove on them for those last sort of 15 minutes of the match until that incredible finish. Let's bring Pat Neven into the conversation as well. You have been at Celtic Park, Pat, but I guarantee by now you've seen that goal. Yes, it was so exciting. Had it on pause, watched it three or four times, enjoyed it. It's just, it isn't a brow, the real hope here was that we'd get it here as well, you know, last minute. And we didn't quite get it here, but you know, for Everton to get the point, you know, it was also making the point, which, don't want to be a doom monger, but

then Jai went off injured, didn't he? And de Kooi's, he's going to have to miss a game or so, so, because he gets sent off as well. And we could do without that, the difficulties I've had. But since David Moyes has taken over and you look at this, the form in the league has been brilliant. Not just the form, the passion that they've shown. And I mean, quite clearly, they never say die attitude, which was clear at the end of the game, wasn't it? All of that went into the emotion behind the reaction to that goal from James Tarkovsky. Who we can hear from now speaking to match of the day, Simon Brotherton.

James, have you ever experienced a moment like that on a football field before? We've had a couple of special nights here in my time at this club, but I think personally for me that will be the best for me and probably will be for every now really. Don't score many and just to let one go into the top corner at the last minute feels amazing. It was a thunderbolt. Is it seared into your brain, the image of the ball landing high in the net? I've just watched it about 15 times and then I've seen a few replays. I won't lose the image of me volleying that ball into the brief of the net against Liverpool

for sure. It was a special night, a big occasion obviously because I was leaving this special stadium so it's a nice memory that everyone can keep into the future. It was a long wait to find out whether it was going to stand. Yes, the celebrations lasted a while first of all then obviously when you see the VAR check I thought it would have been typical for it to be disallowed but thankfully they're just onside and yes, what a moment. Until that moment, it looked as if you were going to be left frustrated despite a lot of good work. You had taken the lead early in the game, pegged back quite quickly and

it did look as if Liverpool were going to disappear with the three points. Yeah, there wasn't anything, not much in the game at all. For a team that's flying high at the top of the league, I thought they competed really well. A very good performance on a squad that's missing a few important players at the minute. We can be proud of the performance, stuck right at it. I get a go at the end, but to be honest, the team throughout played excellent today because they're a real tough side to play against. A special night at Goodison, as you've mentioned, have you experienced anything like this before? I mean, it was it for something else, wasn't it?

Yeah, I mean, Duke scored a goal against Bournemouth on the last day of the season to keep us up a few years ago, which for me has been a standout moment. And then also we won the derby last year, which was another. And then I think tonight goes right above them two for myself. So yeah, there's my top three. That's James Tarkovsky. If only I knew someone who scored an absolutely sensational goal in a massive derby. Gary Cahill, bringing back any memories? Yes, it does. Yeah, it does. A long time ago. What was that, 20 years ago now? I think. No, only 19.

Is it? Fair enough. People will remember though, acrobatic volley for Villa versus Birmingham. So you will know, I think you'll know exactly how he feels. That's it. Get it on YouTube. Have a look at that one. I don't know if I could get up there now, but yeah, no, that was definitely one of my favorite goals in my career. And in a Derby, it's just that extra extra bit special. And it was just as talk. I was just saying that I'm sure we get that canvas and stuck in his house somewhere. He's already watched it. He said extra extra bit special. It was just just a talk. I was giving you just saying that I'm sure we get that canvas and stuck in his house somewhere. He's already watched it.

He said 1014 times. So fair play as a cracking finish. But yeah, a little cheeky overhead volley from me. So which is rare. Yeah, James Tarkovsky only got about 999,994 watches to go to match the number of times you've seen that goal. I reckon. Yeah, but what a moment, you know, what a moment for him. What a moment for him. Like we just said, then the passion of the Everton fans and to score against Liverpool, you know, last minute,

like they come away from that game feeling like they've won it, didn't they? And, you know, a special moment for him. It's also John Murray, I mean, it's difficult to take the emotion out of it. And why would you want to? It's a really significant goal at both ends of the Premier League table. Yes, it is. You know, it inches Everton a little closer to their target this season. So that's that's now ten points above the relegation zone.

And for David Moyes, you know, to point against the league leaders, four league matches unbeaten. And at the other end of the table, you know, when the dust has settled now and we look at the table, Liverpool seven points clear of Arsenal. And now Liverpool and Arsenal have both played 24 matches in the Premier League.

So that is a seven point lead with 14 matches to play. Those are the basics of it. So here's the thing, Pat, for as long as Liverpool have had that game in hand people have said, ah but don't forget it's the derby and this is why? Yeah, if you look at the last 12 or 13 games between Everton and Liverpool at Goudersen Park the draw was most likely a result, oddly enough. Much much better forever and I was suggesting that's Liverpool because they

would have felt if they played the game earlier they would have got all three points but it just seems so is that little seed of doubt. There's been a one or two, I don't think there's been a slip from Liverpool, I don't think they've had a dip as it were but there's been a number of games where you know they've had draws, they've not been quite themselves, they've always got something out of it but tonight you know a point they'll take it but everybody else will think right they'll still have a chance. Had they won tonight nine points we'd kind of all be writing them off wouldn't they and the title off had been finished but Evan have kept it a little bit interesting. It didn't look like it was a draw was the most likely outcome in 90 plus 7. No, I did not. I've just watched it again for the

10th time now. One of the great things about that goal, when you score a goal and it's a winner and maybe it's a scrambled one at the end, yeah that's brilliant, but when it's that vicious, that lash into the top corner, it's absolutely brilliant. And the reaction of the Everton fans and everybody after it, you know, they'll get any trouble except people over in the field and all the rest of it. But the passion that was involved in that game, we heard it from John coming all the way through it.

It's no real surprise it's build over, is it? I did agree with Tarkovsky's analysis to be fair at the end of the game. I did feel that at 2-1's analysis to be fair at the end of the game. I did feel that at 2-1 it was quite harsh on Everton. There was not much in that game whatsoever. I thought Everton worked very hard, had a clear game plan, made it physical, was direct at times and I thought they nullified some of, or a lot of Liverpool's major threats. They didn't make it easy for them. So yeah So I thought they deserved the point today. Virgil van Dijk has been busy with the match today.

Virgil, what a tough one to take so late in the day, no time to do anything about it. No, very tough. To concede the equaliser that late is always disappointing. To score an equaliser or even the winner is a very, very nice feeling. We obviously saw the celebrations they had in the end so we know how much it meant for them but for us obviously very disappointed. But the fact is that we take the point and we move on to Wolves now and that's the reality. It was very lively after the final whistle. What did you make of it? What can you say about it? What can you say about it?

I think it was a very big provocation from one certain player. I think we all seen it and we reacted to it as a team. What we are very able to do I think in that sense because you don't see us making provocations to any other fans to be honest. And then obviously you know what happens nowadays, it's become one big tussle and then it's like, yeah, then it's not me who has to deal with it but then it's the referee and I think today I'm not sure you had it fully under control. Obviously it's a frustrating outcome for you with those couple of points disappearing right at the end of the game but important to remember the bigger picture, seven points is a pretty handy lead to have

at this stage of the season. Yes, listen, we put ourselves in a solid position. We all know that we have so many difficult games coming up. So we need everyone at their best. We need everyone fresh mentally and physically. And obviously everyone should be disappointed after the last part of this game, but from tomorrow on the focus will be on recovery and making sure you are at your best again against Wolves. It will make it very difficult for us at Anfield as well. The main thing for us is to completely focus on ourselves as fans as well. Don't look at what others are doing, writing, whatever. Just focus on us, keep supporting us as players, keep working our

socks off each and every game because every game will be tough from now until the end of the season. That's a fact. Then we'll see on the end of the road if that's enough. But we put ourselves in a good position and we have to keep fighting. Something that's just occurred to me John Murray is that with the number of members of the Liverpool coaching staff getting sent off, someone has to do the manager's interview. Imagine if it's former Everton defender Johnny Heisinger, who is the trusted lieutenant of Arna Slaught. I'm not sure that getting the red cards stops them from doing the

interviews. Now, does it? Oh, does it not? Oh, that would be disappointing. I might be right. I just got a feeling that you might be right. Actually, that's not the way and I wouldn't know whether Virgil van Dyck may hear again about what he said about

Michael Oliver. They're not having control of this. This was an exceptionally difficult match to referee, I can tell you. When he mentioned that a certain individual, I think we all know he's talking about Abdoulaye Dekore and actually of all the players and coaches and everybody that's been sent off, his red card feels like potentially the most impactful. Yeah, you've come to me exactly the right thing. I've just seen it for the first time there what he did. And I don't know if you've've seen it he seems to run over to and I don't know if it's Liverpool supporters or Everton

supporters but then as Jones runs in right behind him and shoves them and you're thinking well what is de Koury doing so I'm not sure what he's doing but he may well have been going Liverpool supporters. That was over in front of the Liverpool fans' park where it happened in you know that corner of the Bullens Road stand. Exactly so and you know that's you shouldn't really do that and it's back where it happened in that corner of the Bullens Road stand. Exactly, so you shouldn't really do that, it's going to annoy people. It's been building up recently and the Premier League hasn't. Players winding up other players, it's happening a wee bit down at Arsenal now and again. Well they're looking at bringing in some sort of sanction for the celebrations, aren't they? We shall see.

I know, but you don't want to be the fun police do you? I really don't want us to be the fun police, that's the last thing that I want. More importantly Gary they're gonna miss De Cori aren't they and Illeman and Jye went off injured. Yeah they are yeah it was actually a sad moment when Jye went off he was very emotional oney so I think he probably feared that he picked up a bad injury there so hopefully he recovers and gets back to full fitness. But yeah, De Corre is going to be a big miss. He just needs to keep his head there.

Don't need him in that situation. I think it's easy to say when I'm sat here watching it and your emotions are not high like his, but you've just got to keep your head because it's a big blow for everyone. Likewise it is for Curtis Jones to be missed for Liverpool, Although you look at Liverpool's bench and, you know, there's more than enough to come in and replace. So, yeah, slightly, like I said, boiled over, spoilt it towards the end a little bit, passion's, you know, too high.

Could have been avoided, I thought. It will be, Pat, one of the most memorable Merseyside derbies at Goodison, so it's fitting that it's the last one there. But I just wonder, from your point of view before we move on to Celtic and buy in. What is it for you? What will be the most memorable moment or moments of this Derby at Goodison Park? There are plenty to choose from.

Unfortunately for me, a lot of the time I was five. I played in. We got three draws and two defeats. It was always, always tight, but there was always brilliant, brilliant players and there was always great skills. And it was, you know, they were

great games. And I think that's what we're going to see. And that's what we're going to see in the next season. And I think that's what we're going to see in the next season. And I think that's what we're going to see in the next season. And I think

that's what we're going to see in the next season. And I think that's what we're going to see in the next season. And I think that's what we're going to see Five I played in, we got three draws and two defeats. It was always, always tight, but there was always brilliant, brilliant players and there was always great skills and there were great games with great players. And that has generally stayed through the years of that game. But the big thing that stays with me is, you know, there are a lot of stadiums just now that look a bit homogeneous, you know, they kind of look a wee bit the same only slightly different colour. The history of football in England has been all these old stadiums that you know exactly where you are, you can see them a mile away, you just need to see one corner and Everton

in Goodison Park was one of them. And it's fulfilled its purpose and it's given us some brilliant, brilliant, brilliant memories. And you know what, doesn't matter which one it is, everyone that's yours is the important one. Still no word as to who is going to be doing interviews from a Liverpool managerial perspective, but we can now hear from David Moyes talking about that goal from James Tarkovsky.

It was an incredible volley. He didn't have the best game last week, James, on Saturday, so he's made up for it today with his goal in the last minute. It was a great goal, but then it was a wait for VAR. We weren't sure if we were going to get the decision or not. I think it seemed to be a really tight call, but fortunately for us it went our way. Four matches and a beat now in a row. That's good progress, isn't it? Yes, if you'd given me that before I'd have come in, I'd have taken it all day. We've got a long way to go, there's

so much we can do. We have to improve greatly and try and get back to the levels. I believe that we can get back to hopefully the light shining on us, that we can get through this season and the new owners come in and help us build a new team if possible and a new, better level of performances from Everton. Had a bit of everything, didn't it? It was quite a throwback game in some respects? I thought it definitely was. I thought it was a bit of old-fashioned. I have to say I thought the referee refereed the game well. He didn't get involved with every challenge. He'd done well. But I think it was a bit of an old-fashioned game.

It was the derby that kept on giving, in fact, even after the final whistle. What did you see of that? What did you make of that? What did the players say to you? Do Corre look quite central to some of it? Yeah, well I didn't see it from where I was. He was walking on and shaking hands with different people at the time, so I didn't see the whole action. But I have had a chance to see it and I'm disappointed because Duke's played really well tonight and I'm going to now lose him because he's got a second yellow card which turned into a red obviously. But the emotions were running high here all night, the stadium was at fever pitch. Did you even feel that coming in on the way in?

Absolutely, I felt it coming in and I actually that, you know, at the end of the game you could see what it meant to the supporters here and the ground was rocking, it really was. It was actually one of the big nights and there's been big nights here under the lights here at Goodison before but tonight was another one. David Moyes, so Liverpool seven clear at the top, Everton 10 clear of the bottom three and I think it's worth saying, John Murray, that was the last derby at the old stadium. For a long while it's felt like the first one at the new stadium might not be next season but thanks to David Moyes it's looking very much like it will. Well I thought that's interesting you know the two sides there, David Moyes saying

that he thought Michael Oliver refereed it well, Virgil van Dijk saying that they thought that he didn't have control but more widely I would say tonight one of the great British football grounds delivered a rousing British Derby match proper passion and spirit and when they do get into the plush new surroundings at Bramley Moor Dock on the big screens that they'll doubtless have there they will always show that James Tarkovsky goal almost the perfect reminder for all of those future generations of what Merseyside Derbies used to be like at Goodison Park. The Football Daily Podcast on BBC Sounds. Vincent Company is a Premier League legend.

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Listen on BBC Sounds. Let's turn our attention to Celtic Park, Celtic won Bayern Munich too. Sorry Ian, Dennis, I feel like we've been neglecting you. Don't worry, it's been fine. No, don't worry. I'm just still catching my breath after what has been a such a raucous evening here in the East End of Glasgow where Celtic were beaten by Bayern Munich by two goals to one it was a spirited finish from Celtic but you have to say a thoroughly deserved win for Bayern. It could have been different for

Celtic they had a goal disallowed after just 30 seconds through VAR they also had a penalty dismissed after the referee was instructed to look again by VAR when upper Meccano caught Engels in the 57th minute. But by that time, Bayern were already 2-0 up, a quality strike from Elise on the stroke of half-time and a Kane volley four minutes into the second half. And whilst Maida reduced the arrears with 11 minutes left and Neuer then saved from Johnston, it only offers Celtic a glimmer of hope for next week's return leg in Bavaria. Gary, I know you were sort of mostly focused on the Merseyside derby but doing your best to be across everything. My abiding thought watching this game was that it didn't matter what Kaspersh

Michael did, Harry Kane was going to score. Yeah, you look across the two games, Melsaala pops up with a goal and Harry Kane is the same old faces in it. Yeah, like you said, I was obviously invested in the Merseyside derby but no surprise to see Harry Kane pop he's the same old faces in it. Like you said, I was obviously invested in the Merseyside derby, but no surprise to see Harry Kane pop up on the score sheet. Schmeichel did have a really good game, I thought, Pat, in the round as well, because he did have a few big saves to make. Absolutely. By the way, Harry Kane probably should have had a hat-trick. Certainly two headers in the first half of the league, he would normally just put them away without thinking about it, but in the fact that he's going to keep on getting into

the right areas, in the fact that lots of chances were being created, the fact that for 75 minutes they spent the entirety of the game in the final third attacking Celtic's goal, it was eventually, you felt, going to happen. But you know, Sméagol, when he had to be there, he was there, he had a couple of good saves, couple of kind of sensible saves but I have to say, it wasn't worked constantly, I didn't feel that. You know, the sensible things, the normal things,

they accepted things, by the way, that's the Bayern fans been told they're allowed to go now. They're quite happy with that, aren't they? You're impressed that I can actually translate that from the German, aren't you? the should say the buying fans played their part to? Yeah, nearly 3000 of them. They definitely contributed. I mean, there was times in the first half where that's all you could hear. I've got to say, and I've been to Celtic Park many times, but there was occasions where I could hardly hear Pat. And he was next to me just to my right.

But that rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone, where they just cut the music and let the supporters sing it, that was spine tingling stuff. And then you had that guttural roar ahead of ahead of kickoff. And then when they got that late goal, they were urged on the Celtic supporters played their part, but ultimately I've always felt

that they needed to win this game to stand any chance of seeing off by it. And yes, it was a spirited finish, but little in the case of too little too late. I think you could tell part couldn't you when because we always talk about the 12th

man and the impact and all that kind of thing. But for Celtic, it was those first few minutes when... Because we always talk about the 12th man and the impact and all that kind of thing. But for Celtic, it was those first few minutes when they had a goal disallowed, and especially the last few minutes. That, you made the point in commentary. It got so loud and so raucous that even the defender normally is composed as... as Uppermiccano, basically seemed to lose his head. Yeah, he lost his head. And also, he was spooked a little bit by Maeda,

when they moved him up to centre forward, he'd been playing left attack, moved him into centre forward and he basically chases everything and he's lightning quick and he never stops. And it really did worry them and they started just lumping it anywhere and heading it out. Whereas in the first half, or for the first as I say three quarters of the game, they weren't under no pressure at all, they were calmly passing it out, they had a million options and they could go wherever they wanted to go. So maybe Brendan, you know, I'm not trying to sell the next game, you know, because we're going to be there. But you know, Brendan will look at it and think, OK, where are the weaknesses?

Well, the weaknesses as they are and everything being relative, it's probably that central defensive area. If you can get the ball low, if you can get in around them if you can make them turn all that sort of stuff and we have from Christian and who knows a lot more about Bayern than us beforehand and he was saying yeah they do worry about the defense they do worry about the central defense so that there is a hope there is a possibility there is a chance it's massively outside chance but you know But you know the Champions League over the years, you get some weird ones and I'm not completely giving up hope for Celtic yet. And just to finish Ian, a word on Michael Alisi, I mean we talk about players coming

to the Premier League from other leagues and you know they'll need time to settle, he has not needed any time to settle. No he hasn't, that was his 11th goals in his 32nd appearance since he arrived for £60 million in the summer from Crystal Palace. He was superb. It was a terrific left footed goal that gave the Celtic goalkeeper, Schmeichel, very little chance

at all. Just when you thought that Celtic would get to half time, it was a quality strike. But also, I have to say say Kimmich was absolutely outstanding. Started it right back, played it midfield, he was popping up here, there and everywhere. He's just turned 30 but he was absolutely sensational for me. By the way, with the best will in the world, right, love Chris Alpals, love what he done, love him and Ezzy together when they were there together.

You see when you go away by a minute and you're a winger, you've got a hell of a lot more of the ball in the right areas. And he's using it fantastically well. He looks as if he's improved, but he's probably getting three times as much ball in the right areas. He is very, very special. He would grace any team. Let's hear from the Celtic manager. Here is Brendan Rodgers. To get the goal and push like we did in that last 20, 25 minutes was pleasing. We've got one more shot now next week to try and claw it back. Was there a frustration in the timing of the first goal and maybe the nature of the second goal?

Yes, I think we looked like we got off to a great start. Unfortunately it was disallowed. We didn't give away too much. I wasn't overly happy with how passive we were at times. We had our triggers in the game to go and press in the right moments and we didn't quite execute that. Still, we never gave away so much. They had obviously possession of the ball but I would expect that. So to then lose just the goal right on half-time, a bit of luck went against us. Greg ricochets to young Michael and he scores a very good goal. The corner, yeah, disappointed. I think that certainly one of the world's best strikers shouldn't be left free in the box, that's for sure. So we're disappointed with that. But then you have to react.

If we make the changes, we're much better in our pressure at the top end of the pitch. We can take the ball better, and then we started to move like we normally do, and then we get the goal, and everything changes then, and by the end, Bayern are happy for the final whistle. So yeah, I think for a lot of our players, it's first time at this level. This season

has been about getting the confidence and like I say, that last 25 minutes they'll feel much better about themselves going into next week. What was your take on the non-penalty award? Yeah, listen, if you're Bayern Munich you're thinking it's not a pill and if you're Celtic you're thinking it's taken so long and there was contact there. And when it comes over, we normally see those are given as a penalty. So, yeah, so if we get that, then of course,

it can change the dynamic then. Right, that's it for this episode of the Football Daily. Two coming your way on Thursday, so 72 Plus, our EFL podcast and the Euroleagues with John Bennett. So look out for them, and as always, thank you so much for listening. A brutal war for control of Glasgow's lucrative drug trade that still rages today. Police think it's the work of a criminal gang. Join me, Livy Haydock, as I investigate the battle that shattered the old school rules of crime. They're just terrorizing people whatever they meant.

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