Football Daily - The psychology evolution in football – how elite managers cope with pressure

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Rick Edwards heads to Brentford’s training ground to speak to head coach Thomas Frank and the club’s psychologist Michael Caulfield.They sit down in the manager’s office to discuss the evolution of psychology in football, dealing with the extreme highs and lows and unique pressures.Thomas Frank was appointed Bees boss back in October 2018 making him the second longest serving manager in the Premier League behind Pep Guardiola. As well as Brentford Michael Caulfield has worked with a number of other football clubs and managers including Gareth Southgate and a wide range of other sports from horseracing to darts.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Rick Edwards. Hello, welcome to a special Football Daily Podcast with me Rick Edwards. I'm here at Brentford's Training Ground in West London, just waiting for the club's manager Thomas Frank and their resident sports psychologist Michael Caulfield. I'm planning to chat to them about how elite football managers cope with pressure, being a leader, manage relationships, work within a limited budget, say goodbye to players. I've actually got quite a long list and they are coming in now. Thomas, Michael, first thing to say is thank you very much for inviting us in.

We've had a lovely day. It's like a night, I never had access like this to a football club, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but everyone seems nice and happy and I don't think that's a coincidence. That's nice, thank you. Very happy that you have had a good day so far. I guess, hopefully, that's part of who we are,

and we are in a good place, and I'm pretty sure that you would have felt exactly the same last year, where we were not as good, and we were pretty sure that you would have felt exactly the same last year where we were not as good and we were struggling a little bit more with results and injuries because you know the real test or the real true character you see when you are under pressure not not when everything is fantastic and nice so but very pleased with that thank you. Also pretty much everyone that we've spoken to has talked about football,

but then without really getting prompted, talked about sort of life outside of football and how that is an important element here. And I guess that's kind of where you come in, Michael. I hope so, because as we sit by the tactics board here, I always say players are not magnets on a tactics board Are they? They're real, they're really real people and normally really good people and this morning again before training We have now a little ceremony once a week where the players are asked to send in a photo of themselves between the age of

6 and 12 and they speak about their early beginnings. I saw this on the honeycomb. Yeah, on the honeycomb. And then the grid is really nice. And this morning was the boys from Brazil, Thiago and Nunes, who hadn't had the best of seasons because of injury. And the emotion that generates just in two minutes,

firstly a player standing in front of the group, which isn't easy. Yeah. And then talking about themselves. And there's more, there's so many layers of people behind the person you see on the pitch or which isn't easy. And then talking about themselves. And there's more, there's so many layers of people behind the person you see on the picture on the touchline. And that's important, particularly to me. I saw Tiago in the gym, he's recovering from injury. He's a big lad.

He's a very big lad. Good guy, good footballer, but he fits into the group in terms of his character. He's really, you know, just a bright energy, positive, smiling, so he gives lots of the group which is important. When you're looking at not just player recruitment but people who are around the building, people who are working within Brentford, I know you have your rule that you've borrowed from the All Blacks, which I won't say for decency, but it's essentially no idiots. And how do you work that out? And how important is that to you? I think it's crucial. If we want to, you know, there is, we can speak back and forth on the tactics. That's, of course, part of winning a football match, but it is the person, it's the character

behind it. And it need to be character first every single time. Because if you have good people around you that want to walk in the same direction, it helps massively. That's where it's possible to overcome better teams, bigger clubs, and that's what we have done for quite a while now. So we are very, very big on that. And then in general, I believe that every person is a good person. If not, then you're probably psychopaths or something like that. No psychopaths,s. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, most maybe they don't know exactly how to behave, or, but then they come into a good environment and they say, oh, we do maybe do it a little bit different here,

so I don't need to do something in a bad way. So I think the environment we have, the culture helps massively to guide the guys that maybe is not, how can I say, naturally good leaders or naturally top characters. How do you see your role here, Michael, you and your benches? It's nearly the most impossible question to answer. And I saw you talking to Ben Mee earlier, one of the better men you'll meet in any walk of life.

Lovely guy. And two years ago, we went to Washington pre-season. This is a story which will embarrass me, but I'll tell it because the team went for 15 days, I went for three because there wouldn't be enough for me to do it for 15 days. And on the last day of three, we're waiting to go and play Aston Villa

in that huge stadium in Washington. And I had arrived in the last day of three, we're waiting to go and play Aston Villa in that huge stadium in Washington. And I'd arrived in the last three days, and they were a good three days, a lovely trip to museums and restaurants and vineyards and one light training session, a lunch on the river. And as we were waiting to leave for the stadium, Ben Mee, who I know quite well now, he looked at me in front of the whole group, staff, players, managers, coaches, and went, Michael, said, yes Ben, why exactly are you here? And that was the reaction, 60 sets of laughter, and I've now actually, I said to Ben one day, one day I'm gonna write all of this down, but not yet, and it's going to be called, why exactly were you here? And I think what I've tried to do is steal all the ideas from

the paisley, shankly, brine kid era of sport through to the current day. Not, not, it doesn't say I haven't, I haven't evolved, I have. But for me to say good morning to Josie in the morning or say goodbye to Maria and go and see the ground staff who this winter have been out there every morning in the worst conditions preparing Augusta as I call it. I think that the role is to connect with people because Thomas said to me something 16 months ago which shook me, stopped me and that lunch we were having when he said, Michael I'm very jealous of you, which

came as a surprise to me and I smiled back at Thomas and said why are you jealous of me? I should be jealous of you and he went because you'll have the one thing or you have the one thing I'll never have again in this job in this club or as a head coach or manager and I said what's that? He goes you've got time and the club here has allowed me time. People think I often wander around doing nothing which is often the correct assumption. Free of technology, I don't normally have a laptop or a phone or anything with me and they've created time for me to give time to other people and that I've worked out from that day on that's what

I've got. I've got time Rick and if I can't use that time wisely I'm a fool. It's a very valuable and rare commodity. It's a rare and no one's got time anymore in any walk of life. So I'm virtually phone, laptop, computer free, but I've got time. And the club have allowed me that precious quantity, which is time. Yes, I think I'm also jealous of you. So is Michael kind of the connective tissue within the Brentford setup, like the glue? Yeah, I would say that's a good way to describe it. I think Michael is also that little bit of,

I can say, grey hair, a little bit of experience, tried all different kinds of sports, been in all kinds of environments, tried everything in life basically, but also then have the privilege to speak to all departments and actually, yeah, have the time to get across, let's say medical, sports science, coaches, groundsmen, whatever, media. I think that's very important to have people that do that. From talking to people here, it feels like you're quite like that as well.

You seem to have time for everyone and everything. That's a big praise. I don't feel I got that. Our strength is normally also our weaknesses. I think I'm pretty good to get across to everything and probably also wants to be involved in too many things. But then I get across a lot and sometimes should lean back and not to dictate anything, just to get a sense of what's happening. So I'm more on top of things in terms of

maybe helping or feeling where there's some problems. Did you imagine you'd be at Brentford for this long? Nope. If you want more. No, that's good. Yeah. Because it is, I mean, particularly nowadays, managers do not get very long in the job,

if you look around. Which I think everyone sort of agrees is a shame. But it's just the football environment that we're now living in, right? Yeah, it is. I think the reason why I said no straight away is that I had to move to another country, to move the family.

So when we came over here, it was not like we planned to be here in five years or even three years, you don't know. It was not that we were thinking we would come back. Worked with Dean Smith when you first came. Yeah, first. So I was assistant coach for a little less than two years and then yeah, I took over.

I remember I walked with my wife after, you know, in the street in the house we were living in after a year, just had that feeling. I think we could stay here for five years. And I was still assistant coach and clearly wanted to be head coach. Not that I at that stage think I would be the next day or anything like that or the next year.

But just had a good vibe about the club, the ownership, leadership, the way everything was done. But I probably haven't thought that I would be here for, can't even calculate anymore, eight years. Nine years maybe? Close to nine years. Close to 310 games. That's a lot. Have you been happy with how you've shaped things? We say you like the vibe within a year but I imagine that things have evolved certainly from the outside it appears that the club has evolved under you. Yeah I think it's been

an incredible journey together with fantastic people. The culture, the bits we created is is on foundation on a lot of a lot of good people that yeah want to do the same work hard do together go in the same direction so that's been a big privilege I never imagined that we would be here if I looked six seven years down the road we had dreams and belief but there's been more than than I, if I'm honest. Does your ambition for Brentford have a ceiling? No.

I'm realistic, but I'm also a dreamer. I think I'm very positive, optimistic, and I think it's one of my strengths to constantly believe and think we can do better. And we are good and believe that we can beat any team. And of course we lose quite a few games as well. But every game we go into, we believe we can win. We believe that we can end very high. I'm more, probably a little bit more pessimistic than...

Realistic. Realistic. I'm British, you know little bit more pessimistic than... Realistic. Realistic. I'm British, you know. Yeah, true, yeah. So we've got a good Danish- They drummed into me all my life. Danish-English connection there. So I'm just hopeful and a dreamer, but also know we need to work hard.

I also know who we are and also very aware. I'm on the flip side and people are saying to me, Thomas now you are established in the Prem League. Yeah but next year there's another season against 19 other clubs where 18 of them or 17 of them got a better budget than us. We need to fight against the wind. What do you get from this man personally? Personally, on a personal level, I would say I got first a good colleague, then a little bit later down the road a good friend, confidentiality. And then I get, because Mike also needs to have that confidentiality with his, with your staff members or players. I don't get anything that I shouldn't know, but I get a feeling about things, how it's going

and where I need to be aware if there's something I need to step into or help. And then, you know, we've been on some good walks in terms of it's a, I think I'm in a way, I'm a football, football, football person. It's my life, it's in my a, I think I'm in a way, I'm a football, football, football person. It's my life, it's in my head, I think about all the time. But on the flip side, I also think I'm a little

different football person. Maybe it's because I haven't played, I don't know. Maybe it's because I got a different mindset. But Michael give me some good reminders about how sport and football works, because sometimes things are different. I can't really nail how to describe it, but I just get a little bit more knowledgeable about some things to be aware of, just in terms of how I speak and how I approach things. The Football Daily Podcast on BBC Sound.

It's the scandal that rocked Rugby Union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals.

So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dean Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes, Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds. I suppose also, what comes across just listening to you in other interviews is that football is obviously very important. Football is your life, but it's also only football. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, but you're bang on. I think that's probably part of it. You can join in a second here, Mike. But that's, yeah, I think for me, it is everything and nothing. Right. It is, I'm devastated after we lose to Villa on Saturday. I'm irritated.

And every single fiber in my body hurts after the game because I'm irritated in different ways. But on the flip side, they're coming in on a Monday and there's hope again and working with good people and I believe and I dream again and then we go one more time. But on the flip side I know... And you beat Bournemouth at the weekend. Yeah, hopefully that'll be the plan. So then we need to do interview next week as well.

Then there's a lot of it of course. But on the flip side I also know what's the most important thing for me, family, friends. And from your perspective, how do you kind of make sure that you're working best for Thomas Michael? because it sounds like you're kind of his ear to the ground in a way I don't but just that's the longest I've kept quiet for ever in my life I think I'm really this listen well because I was I was taken aback by the answers I think his description which is his second language Thomas were there was colleague and then one day friend I think is perfect because when you're in this it it's not, it's not friendships at the minute because we're too, we're too busy, we're too committed and we are generally committed to what

we're trying to do. Um, I think a lot of trust has been developed. I, and it's, it's, it's not being forced because I'd never met him in my life before he arrived. I arrived just only a month or so before you, I think. And so you've got this Spanish person and this British person who you've never met before. And then eight years later, something has happened. And I want to be, I don't want to overthink it either because it just happens. Like any good relationship, it just happens. It's a kind of nice alchemy, isn't it? I hope so.

And certainly from the, because it's a big building now with players and staff The one thing Thomas has never ever ever ever asked me to do never will be to break a confidence I wouldn't do it anyway, so you wouldn't bother asking me, but I think we've developed a way with a number of members of staff and players We've been together quite a long time now some of of us in the building a lot, and we know each other, we trust each other, and like any good relationship, even sometimes a look can tell you everything, and it will nod, and it will, honestly it tells you so much. So I think I know when to talk to Thomas or vice versa, and when to leave him alone, which is, I don't often go near him too much in the mornings because that's the busy part of day or the busy time of day. So we've all worked out a way

of handling each other because football is so totally irrational and completely emotional and it's the only sport in the world if I can say this and you're a Liverpool fan and we're recording this on a Tuesday before Liverpool played PSG. That's right. We watched a gripping game of football last week between PSG and Liverpool in Paris and before Harvey Elliott shot, which no doubt if you were awake that time of night you would have jumped on the sofa, Liverpool's XG in the 87th minute, this is Liverpool, they were quite good at football, their XG on 87 minutes was 0.00 and they win the game. And it felt like naught. And it felt like naught.

And if that had been a game of rugby or a boxing contest or any other sport in the world, the team with the domination would win. Well, the towel would have been in. It would have been in. So this sport is so emotional and I get emotional too. I get as happy or as sad as anyone in this building and we're speaking after the Villa defeat. that really stung on Saturday for some reason.

That really stung us because we felt we were nearly over the line, or could get over the line. So to answer your question, which I doubt I could long time over, there's a lot of trust, there's a lot of empathy, there's a lot of understanding, and I'd like to think that one skill I do have, believe it or not, is knowing when to shut up

and leave a room. I was always taught I was a good lever, and sometimes people need to be left alone. Which is actually a great compliment. I hope so. When you first hear it, you're like, oh no, that is a nice thing to say. I hope so. I hope so. In terms of this season, I was talking to Nitti earlier and he was really interesting

about how he sort of measures the success of the club. So we're saying, season before last, finished ninth, fantastic, last season, 16th. From the outside, you'd say, well, that's not as good. You'll be disappointed. He was like, but we're looking at sort of underlying performance and we accept that there is quite a lot of luck in this game. And sometimes you'll have seasons where you're lucky

and you finish higher than maybe you deserve to. Sometimes you'll have seasons where you're lucky and you finish higher than maybe you deserve to. Sometimes you'll have seasons where you're unlucky and you finish a bit lower than you deserve to and some seasons you'll finish exactly where you should have done and that is quite a sort of it's quite mentally tough thing to get your head around because you're pouring everything into this but luck is a really big factor and you have no control over it, famously. So how do you deal with that? Very badly.

I think that was part of the Villa game. Not that we were, not if you look on a lot of things, it was not like we were unlucky to lose the game, but I don't think we had those margins that you needed to win a game. And that's, you know, there's a few things that really irritates me. If you don't treat people in the right way, you know, that can be in some, if you don't, if you don't behave well towards Michael, that really irritates me, for example, all the way around. And then if I feel I'm unfair, treat it.

And that's not so good when you play football and you don't get the luck with you. So that just makes me more irritated, because if you got beaten big, you know, in a way it's easier to handle. So we play a game against a good Villaside, very well coached by Unai Emery, as I really admire him and the team. And there's these fine moments. So they score on a deflected shot. We probably should have had one penalty. And then we had 12 nearly moments where it's one pass, one cross is this much higher. One ball is dropping to this side instead of this side.

And that can change the game. That's sometimes the tricky thing to cope with but it's part of it. If I can't deal with that I shouldn't be in the game. What's your relationship like with other Premier League managers? Personally, I think it would be good fun to have a beer with in a bar. Probably to ask them. I think it depends a lot. I think I respect all of them.

I admire all of them. I admire because I know exactly how it is to be them. And I'm one of 20 or one of 19 that know the others that know how it is, but must to be in that situation when you're struggling, not winning or all that. And no one of 19 that know the others that know how it is but must be in that situation when you're struggling, not winning or all that. No one else knows that. No one. Michael got an idea.

You have an idea, but no one knows. No one knows what's happening inside your head when you is... It's horrendous. It's crazy how the minds is... Can't swear. So the F word around with you, okay? Anyway, so some of them I relatively good to see outside football, we're always going to have a drink after the game, others not as much, but I feel a mutual respect. It feels like it affects you viscerally and physically. How are you able then to leave it behind? Because that's one of your things you've

spoken about a lot. You can kind of wallow in a defeat, but only for a brief period of time, and then you just have to switch that off. Yeah, good question. Last couple of years, I learned myself a rule, taught myself a rule, the 24-hour rule. You can celebrate for 24 hours or you can be miserable for 24 hours. And I think that's a good reminder to myself. And I really try to, again, Saturday's game just stuck in the system longer. Some games does, you just feel it in the body physically. Others is you're quicker to get over it but I think that's, I think it's so important that you can get

others to move on. Your job presumably is harder after a defeat Michael. It is because going back to that point of it's so emotional. We all feel it because we've been we've been here a long time. I think when I said to Thomas at lunch last week actually, which a member of senior member of staff then repeated me by chance the next day that when Thomas walks through the doors in the morning, the whole building is behind him.

So we're all trying to do the same thing together, which is remarkable. And sometimes the mood can dip. The greatest test I've had in football in my 20 years in football which I love was last season because last season was hard when we finished 16th because there were so many setbacks throughout the season with players we just personally like you know there's a really strong relationship with the players here. I have a I'd like to think I've got a really strong relationship with the players and some of the injuries and the setbacks

and they're going to be long-term injuries too. For us to all stay pretty calm last season, I think was our biggest challenge to date. So I always try and read the room, read the building, which sometimes means leaving the building because people like to have a bit of space. You're a bit of space. I'm a good lever and this is a terrible word to use but It's the wrong word But I use it anyway because I hope it explains it is sometimes you can actually sort of almost Grieve after a result because you're so disappointed and as you know as a fan and I think it's been almost officially announced in recent months There's been some research on this in the history of humankind The most popular activity in the world is football.

Football. Do you believe that? It's football because everyone talks about it. I was lucky to be in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago for 24 hours, 48 hours, and the first thing that people wanted to speak to me about on landing was football. That's what they wanted to speak about, is football. It's extraordinary. So the emotions are high, and I think if you get so ridiculously high that hurts you it also the other way around and Again, the Fleck Young Thomas's work here Confident but humble which came from Stuart Warden at the Brit school who we guessed That was great Stuart one giving the plug to the Brit school here

He came out one day and gave a lovely presentation to us all he's the most charmed brilliant man He runs this amazing school in South London. He wants all of his pupils, which include Adele through to the Rizzle Kicks, through to, I'm showing how trendy I am here. Yeah, I mean, the Rizzle Kicks is ages you've quite got, Michael. I was quite pleased though, I wanted to be, and Adele, everyone's laughing now. Be Adele. But he said he wants all of his pupils to leave Britain confident but humble. And Thomas picked up on that and we've used it ever since. And that 24-hour rule, I think,

really has gone through the building a lot now. And the day after, I often come in on a Sunday, I don't need to, but I just like to feel the mood after a good win. It's a beautiful, honestly, it's a ridiculously beautiful thing, but the mood after a day like Saturday is more difficult and sometimes people need space. You mentioned Thomas, there's probably 17 or 18 clubs that have bigger budgets than Brentford and you've got to compete

with them and you've got to try and beat a bunch of them and I wonder how tiring that is in a way when you see other people with more resources. I mean, famously your recruitment policy has been very, very successful, but you obviously have to work harder at it. Yeah, I think, of course, sometimes I think we're only humans that you can get a little bit irritated that we can't maybe do the same as other clubs, spend a little bit more money. But on the flip side, that's the challenge. That's what I signed up for. I knew that throughout.

And we are in a, there's so many, so many pluses by being here. There's, you know, it's a fantastic club in many ways. The recruitment is spot on. I think we, Trotswood, haven't not yet assigned a player that couldn't fit in one way or another. I'm not saying everyone is going to be through the roof and being sold to Arsenal like David Raya, or, you know, when we sold them in the past to other Premier Clubs. I'm not saying everyone is going to be through the roof and being sold to Arsenal like David Raya or when we sold them in the past to other Premier Clubs or producer England International, Ivan Tony,

but a lot of our players are performing one way or another. I think that's a big part of it. I see it more there's good opportunities and to say no matter where you are, it's a privilege and a fantastic job and sometimes also a little bit hard job to be a football coach. Is it difficult saying goodbye to some of those players, players that you've developed that then have gone on to other clubs? Depends a little bit I think it depends on the on the timing of it I think for Ivan and

David let's take the two latest ones that left the building, you know, going to other clubs. I think it was the right time. It was, it was, it was, it was the timing was there. When the timing is there, I think it's good for the player and for the club. Because in football, it's rarely, it's rare that players are staying for not even 10 years, 8 years, 6 years. We actually got a few players who stayed here for 6 years. That's a lot. And especially in a club that is like in the middle can't, not that we can't win,

but it's not that likely we're going to win something, so you're constantly in that role. So yeah, I'm more pleased when they are going to, to better positions. Were you surprised at where Ivan ended up? Yes and no, it's, um, it's, uh, how can you say it's a competitor, uh, out there in the market, so it was his choice. Yeah. And, and are you comfortable with the fact that you will, you know, there are

players at this club right now who are doing really well for you that other clubs will be sniffing around in the summer? They're most likely will be a player leaving us in the summer, most likely, but who knows. As a head coach you want to keep all of them and no doubt about that but as I said earlier we are selling club. I think there's maybe six clubs in the world that are not selling players. So if the right offer is there, then it's part of the plan.

Guys, thanks again for having us in. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.