Football Daily - The Welsh Way: Inside ‘Harvard for football coaches’

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Steve Crossman & BBC Sport Wales’ Dafydd Pritchard look at how the Welsh FA are fast becoming world leaders in producing elite coaches – with the likes of Mikel Arteta, Thierry Henry and Patrick Vieira being just some of many illustrious products of the FAW’s coaching system. In this episode the guys head to Newport, where they’re given access to the FAW's 2025 Pro License course in Newport, and speak to some of this years candidates who graduate this summer. You’ll hear from the likes of former Arsenal defender Gaël Clichy, who talks about spending time with the SAS as part of the course. Nuri Şahin opens up about his research project on the All Blacks and why he wanted to study culture after being sacked by Borussia Dortmund in January this year, and Wales Manager Craig Bellamy discusses his love of Japanese culture and why part of his approach to coaching is to try to 'save people' from the mistakes he made.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull Racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindy. And thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. And this week I'll be answering your questions and you can literally ask me anything. I just think Matt will probably regret that. 2023 Dutch Grand Prix, I think it was practice, he crashed and he left one hand on the steering

wheel and ended up breaking his wrist. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is the Football Daily Podcast with Steve Crossman. OK, we all remember Welsh football's hot bucket hat summer of 2016, right? When floppy headwear became cultural and historic headway was made. The start. Big summer ahead, because the boys aren't the only wave makers. I feel like I need to speak but I don't think I can. And pulling it all together, a golden thread, woven in a place that's seen the likes of Vieira, Arteta and Henri pull on Welsh tracksuits.

That course also puts you out of your comfort zone. It lets you fly in it. It's a talent factory that's attracting big names in the women's game too. Also on that bench is Brandi Chastain. This is where we're moving things through the FAW. that's attracting big names in the women's game too. And it's all linked. Legends of the game quietly learning to be top managers on Welsh soil, whales punching loudly above its weight. But it's not happening in Swansea, it's not happening in Cardiff.

No, this needle is moving in Newport. This is my town, special feelings for the place, it's unbelievable. For the first time, we've got access all areas to the FAW's UEFA Pro Licence candidates, the Class of 2025 superstar students. I know we are a group who will be connected the rest of our lives somehow. This is like Harvard for our coaches here. And their teachers all miked up. Anybody scores lads, then I'm going to go absolutely mad.

So how did Newport become one of the go-to destinations for the biggest names in world football? How does Wales benefit? And what's that got to do with the rise of their national teams? Let's find out. From BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sport Wales, this is the Welsh way. I'm Steve Crossman. And appropriately enough, we begin here next to a statue of a massive bucket hat. In fact, sheltering next to a statue of a massive bucket hat because here in Newport the weather is absolutely shocking. I'm gonna have Davith Pritchard with me from BBC Wales for all of this. I'm really sorry first of all to have dragged you out in this. Oh not at all Steve, I'm used to it believe it or not in these parts of

South Wales. Just in front of us there's a giant blue dragon with big yellow eyes. That sat atop Cardiff Castle when they had the Champions League final here in 2017. I'm saying all of this because the actual building in front of us might not be the prettiest but to this city so important. Massive yeah Dragon Park here it's one of the main centres for the Football Association of Wales but it's lived its life kind of behind the scenes so when we've heard all about Euro 2016 and the World Cup in 2022 all that on-pitch success there have been some pretty big names pass through here wearing Wales tracksuits because they've decided to come here to Wales to do their coaching badges and that's why we're here and for once the access

is absolutely amazing you know the higher you go the harder is to get access by and large but on this occasion we've pretty much got the keys to the castle so some of the names that we already know we're gonna hear from Clichy, Cabaye, Sahin, Dante, former Brazil international still captain of Nice still going strong in his 40s you've got some Cymru Premier which is the Welsh top flight and you've got some Cymru Premier, which is the Welsh top flight. And you've got some from the women's game as well. So one person who's already in a job and doing a very good job,

but getting her Pro license at the moment, is Rhian Wilkinson. She's the manager of Wales and they've just qualified for their first major tournament in their history. So everyone in Wales at the moment can't wait for the Euros to start. And Rhian Wilkinson will be leading Wales to Switzerland. We're also going to be able to speak to some of the coaches running sessions, like Russell Martin, former Southampton manager, took them to the Premier League. Rob Edwards took Luton to the Premier League, both over the course of the last few years.

Tony Pulis is going to be here doing a session on... Set pieces. Obviously. Tony Pulis is the don when it comes to set pieces, isn't he? And the don of Newport. He loves every opportunity he can to come back here. Right now we get to go out on the grass so we've got Russell Martin on playing out from the back obviously and Rhian Wilkinson's session so I'll do Russell you do Rhian. Sounds good to me. All right I'm taking shelter in one of the dugouts here. Russell Martin's right in the middle of the pitch. From here I can't hear a thing but if I put these special headphones on and then select the right

channel. Good boy, good pass. Here he is, here he is, finally. Yeah let's go, beautiful, well played. That's been, let's go. I can listen to this session but I need to get this into because this is a goalscoring chance and we've just made it difficult. If I change the channel. Good, patience, patience. You're in early, you're in early. New angle. Well done. Step in, step in. Well done.

That's Rhianne Wilkinson. And I can see down the touchline, Daph is waiting to speak to her. Well, Rhianne, first of all, can you tell us about the course? And as a manager in work, how is it balancing that dynamic of teaching and learning at the same time? That excitement around learning, that's why we do this, is you never finish learning and

this is always a good reminder that there's still a long way to go. You look along that dugout, some very familiar names, people who've played with all kinds of coaches from the NWSL in your case, to Gail Klishi working under Pep Guardiola. What's it like sharing those ideas with your peers? It's great. You know it's always interesting when we're talking about a topic and then someone will be like well Pep used to or Klopp used to and you're like wow that's cool. And is it nice that you're able to give something back as well as learning about the course because you're in a senior position already and it must have been such a buzz for those young girls you

were coaching earlier. Yeah the poor things were really thrown in there they were they were great and I think that that's what we learn here like you're you're putting on a session you've never met the team before how do you get them as comfortable as possible how do you try and tailor what you plan to deliver to the team that you actually get but in the end it's really just about showcasing the game and different styles of delivery and there's no right or wrong there's just how you do it.

When was it during your playing career that you knew, I want to be a coach, this is for me? During my playing career, I never wanted to be a coach. I absolutely, this was not the path. But what I do think I did, which I'm grateful for, is I said yes to opportunities. So the UEFA B license here in Wales happened to be at the same time where I had quite a nasty injury.

Once I was on my B, I was offered an opportunity to be an assistant coach for a youth team back in Canada. And then you realize that my great love is teaching and that is what coaching is in a very pure form, in a sport I love. So I definitely probably came to it a bit late or I never really knew. But I'm really glad that I said yes to opportunity and that's probably what I would suggest to women is like you don't have to know what you're doing straight away but if you are getting opportunities in the game why not say yes see where they lead be courageous in doing that. I'm glad you mentioned the teaching because elements of it are to do with

public speaking there are academic elements so a lot of these notable and famous former players are gonna be out of their comfort zone on this course, aren't they? Yeah, I mean the reality is the better a player is, the harder it is for them to coach. And you know, Thierry-Arriz beat on this course, Miquel Arteta, all these top top guys who are incredible. They are incredible. And so grateful that I was not a very great player and that I had to understand the game in a way like I do think it's an advantage to being like a journey woman kind of player because I also had to play across fullback, centre-back, winger, you know, midfielder and so I got an education in that where I think you see some of these top guys are really having to like break down how they teach, how do people learn because

they themselves knew it, they got it, they understood the spacing of it which I I never did. So how do you teach that? And I think that's a really cool part is how do we support each other in the learning part but also in how we want to teach it. And that's what I think the FAW does well. There's obviously on the pitch learning, but there's how do you frame a session, how do you debrief a session, how before a session do you have video clips but don't overwhelm but equally show exactly what they need. This is all part of teaching And we'll get back on the grass. A little bit later, we'll learn more about Dragon Park's role behind the scenes in the success of Wales' men's and women's teams.

But for all the stardust on show here, when you go behind the curtain, when you see these guys getting ready for some of their theory classes, you're just struck by the normality. Brazil International, current captain of Nice, Dante. He's struggling with the coffee machine. Premier League winner with Leicester City, Andy King is looking for a clicker for his powerpoint. John Walters, former Premier League striker, now sporting director at Stoke City, is sipping a big green smoothie through a red and white striped straw. We've got permission to go wherever we want. There's a lot of choice.

So we nip into a lecture on Jaby Alonso, obviously. Morning everyone, thanks for joining me. Part of our task we're going to do is do a study visit. I was very fortunate to visit by a leather cousin. Monzo, obviously. Isn't that just the best work experience placement of all time? Anyway, there's time for questions. Gale Clichy has a lot of them. Sorry, sorry, do you know why? He chips in maybe ten times during the presentation because he is all in. They call this weekend Last Contact because the pro-licence candidates graduate almost

immediately afterwards. We sit down over lunch. Right, Gail, firstly, tell us about this course, this environment, how much you've enjoyed being here. Yeah we we enjoy it but most most importantly we we are learning a lot you know you've had a career as a player but it's a new it's a new job a job that you think you know and understand but you actually starting from zero so it's very important to go step by step and learning from the mentors here who've been teaching this game to many many people is so valuable. So you know the course and the

federation, the group, very dynamic, very young and I think you know in 2025 this is we can start to see that you know football is opening doors for new managers and we are there from the first day up to today. The ambiance was good, the vibe was good, the learning was fantastic and it's a great way to say goodbye to the environment because we know we will be back and when you know you will be back somewhere, it's never really a goodbye. You obviously work really closely with Thierry Henry at the moment and you've had the Olympic Games and all that kind of thing and Thierry did the course here as well. There's a lovely quote from him where he said, that course also puts you out of your comfort zone within the rules

of what you need to be and learn to be a good manager obviously they let you fly in it if you know what I mean you have a certain freedom to express yourself. How do you kind of interpret that? Yeah it's nice it's nice and and this is what I liked and when I spoke to him, he told me to come here because there's a difference between teaching someone to be his own with ideas and teaching someone to be the way you want him to be. And I think it's a little bit with kids, you're trying to give them values and structure, but in the end it's their life and you want them to enjoy and to live their life. So this is what the FAW is giving you. They're giving you a structure without fixing you to something that they believe in.

You will have success and you will get sacked with your own ideas. And this is what they're trying to give you and for me, I could have not dreamed for a better way to learn to become a coach. for a better way to learn to become a coach. This is quite a big question. How different is Gael Klitsche now to Gael Klitsche starting this course? You learn so much and you learn about how to behave in front of a group.

You learn how to talk in front of a group, to communicate, you learn to understand what makes a great coach and what you have to deal with, you know? And it's something very basic, but when you have to tell a player that he's gonna be on a bench or he's not gonna be selected, this is where the whole meaning of coaching take.

In the end, depending where you are, which club, which national team, you are driven by results and you will be judged on this. But also as a coach, you need to understand and realize that you are going to be Someone that can actually impact somebody's life professionally in a private life as well So, you know, it's not just about how can you teach someone to play football is also how you can make people understand life because in the end, you know, you you're dealing with Someone and that someone got things happening at home and they still have to come here and to perform

for you so that's a big thing that they're telling us that you know we are alone and with being alone we need to be able to give to many others and that's something that you know when you're a player you never really quite understand you don't really think about you about how the coach is feeling, what he's feeling, and how he deals with results or selection. To be ready when you get into your first job is valuable. You know what I've realised about you just sitting in one of those little lectures is?

You get stuck in, don't you? You're throwing questions in, everything, like trying to drink every little last drop. Yeah, I mean, I was like this as a player. I arrived at Arsenal when I was 17 from third division in France. And I saw myself as a student being in a library where you have different books and you can just take and learn

and take this and put it in your bag, this information, that information. I want this and I want to become like this. I like that, I don't want to become like that, but I want to be inspired. This I see is working for him, but it's not something I want to do. This is definitely a wrong way of approaching a game

or training session, so I don't want to be like that guy. I'm trying to be as much present and as much on the front foot so I can live tomorrow with plenty in my bag. I was curious to ask, and I think just listening to you then, I might already know the answer about why do the course in Wales in English? Because presumably you could have done it at Clairefontaine.

Is it to do with the language of football? Oh, for me, for me it is the case. When I started to be interested in coaching, I realized that my football language in French was none so I actually got myself in a place where I couldn't really communicate the way I wanted and English because I spent so long you know in England was so natural so I just went like this but I just think overall when you in a club like you know Le Bacchuson or anywhere you you go now in top clubs you will have

people from different cultures speaking different languages. And obviously English is the main language that I would say everybody will kind of have a bit of English. So I don't see anything wrong with that until the people, the locals see it. Otherwise you have to respect the culture.

And I think it's a tremendous thing to do to be able to again to impact someone. Those little details that make a club, a coach or a player grow." Yeah, I dunno about you, but I think I'm about ready to run through brick walls for Gael Clichy at this point. But then everybody here speaks so well and so warmly about this environment. Here's a couple of examples. Johan Kabaai and Nuri Shaheen have exactly 100 caps between them for France and Turkey. Nuri's played for Real Madrid and Liverpool, but he is a Borussia Dortmund legend. He was manager there before being sacked at the start of this year. Johan is best known for his time in the Premier League with Newcastle and Crystal Palace.

He's now working at Paris Saint-Germain. There are some great cities within all of that, but they don't half love being in Newport. Johan, how are you finding all this? What will you take from Wales back to Paris? I'm a different person now. I know myself better in terms of management, leadership, vision of football and the way I want to work and develop myself. Definitely I will take home only good things from Wales. Nuri, lovely to talk to you. Have you been enjoying all of this? Yeah, a lot, a lot. After being almost 20 years in professional football, at the beginning of every season you feel if it's a special group or not. It was the same here.

With the course when we met last year for the first time it felt right, it felt special and we created a bond together and I know we are a group who will be connected for the rest of our lives somehow. I mean obviously you've been here for a year, but the last few months do you feel like you've learned things just then which will make you a better coach? Absolutely, absolutely not only a better coach really also a better person. I learned so much about me also in this course and I'm really glad and thankful to the FAW and yeah this will prepare me for the, not only for my coaching career, but for the rest of my life.

It's a big step and I had this when I was in Harvard. I learned so much and this is like Harvard for coaches here. What is it? I mean, I didn't even know you'd been to Harvard. That is amazing. So what would be something that you learned from there and something that you've learned about yourself from here? I surround yourself with good people. This is so important.

Connect with good people, connect with smart people. Yeah, this is the best learning I've had. Harvard for football coaches. How about that? I think it feels like a good time to meet and discuss the people who've made this environment that so many stars of the game are so keen to experience. For that, we go back to Dragon Park. Dave Adams is the FAW's technical director. He is the man who runs this course. He's the king and queen maker of Welsh football. He decides who leads the men's and women's

national teams. And he's in charge of what they call the Welsh way. You ready for a big broad question to kick things off Dave? Oh I'm ready mate, can't wait. What's the Welsh way? I would say it's our mantra to get the stronger. Chris Coleman obviously, Ian Gwynne-Hughes, our public affairs guy, sort of came up with the mantra, but it stuck with us and it's probably something which we always reference and refer to internally, whether that be in any department we want to work together, I think being small, being

agile, like being dynamic, but everyone feeling a part of something is really, really important. I think in high performance environments these days when you look at any high performance coaching environment, like that sense of togetherness is really important, whether you're the head coach or you're the master or you're the chef, you've all got a vital part to play and you've all got to buy into the vision of the head coach, but you've got to also feel part of that as well. So I think it's really important in Wales that we have that mantra and it kind of drives everything we do internally. Why should you dream small, dream big? We're a small country, but we've got incredible talent. And also when we, I guess, try and find a head coach, or we look at analysis, or we look at sports science, or we look at leadership, mostly we're doing things differently,

but you know, we're really interested in the small margins. And that's, for me, what gives us a competitive advantage at the highest level. What are the building blocks that have gone into making this course what it is today? Well, I'm sort of, I suppose, standing on the work of other people in some respects. Just going to pause Dave real quick there and we'll come right back to him. Daph, he's going to be a little bit modest. I'm sure though he would also want us to talk about some of the really important people along the way. And it's impossible to name all of them, but there's a massive quote on a wall above us here at Dragon Park that we should

really talk about. Absolutely yeah Chris Coleman the former manager, Wales's manager at Euro 2016 and it's there in black and white on the walls. Don't be afraid to have dreams. Because four years ago I was as far away from this as you can imagine and look what's happened if you work hard enough and you're not afraid to dream and you're not afraid to fail everybody fails I've had more failures than I've had success but I'm not afraid to fail and every now and again I can't say every now and again because this has never happened to me but I'm enjoying it it's sweet and I think we deserve it. And I remember where I was when he said it because it was just after Wales had beaten

Belgium 3-1 quarterfinals of the Euros in France and probably goes down as the greatest night in Welsh football history and Coleman all through it you know he had a tough start to his reign slowly they started building momentum with this golden generation Gareth Bale, Aaron Ramsey and the rest and all through it Coleman was this ultimate charismatic lead man and he just brought everyone with him along the ride and he had such a gift for words. He just kept producing as the journey through the Euros kept getting better and that was the peak.

In terms of this modern course there is one name that comes up time and time again. Yeah and that is the name of O'Shaun Roberts, a former technical director here at the Football Association of Wales, also a former assistant manager, so he was Chris Coleman's assistant during the Euros. But he was really the brains behind the operation here at Dragon Park and saw the coaching course here grow from something off the mainstream, not known by many, to this beast of a conference. So many of these huge names were brought here to Wales

to cut their teeth as coaches. And many of them turned to O'Shaun for a guiding hand when they started out as coaches. So Patrick Beara had him at Crystal Palace as an assistant, Gary Speed had him at Wales. So O'Shaun Roberts, maybe not a name your average football fan knows, but one who's been very influential here at Dragon Park.

I mean O'Shaun Roberts did a great job in creating a programme which was world class and I think what I tried to do with it when I arrived in 2019 was to go into the market and speak to people who were working as head coaches, top top coaches. Mikaela Tetra at the time obviously helped a lot with this program, Roberto Martin has helped a lot from a national team perspective. I think fundamentally what's been fantastic is our alumni have always supported us, but because they feel so connected to what we did

to help them in their career, they almost feel like they're giving something back to us by giving their time up, or that'd be a two hour session or an hour lecture or an online session. Mikael, you know, all those people who were obviously working in highly demanding positions, if I reach out to them, they straight away come back more than happy to help with anything, you know. With no cost, of course, not those sort of things,

but yeah, testament to what's been done here that people feel that connected to it as well. Got a real chicken and egg question for you, right? Go on. So, I was really interested in the presentations about non negotiables Okay, and I immediately thought I've heard Mikel I said I talk about that In fact, he's become the person synonymous with the phrase non negotiables Is that something that he did on the course or is it something that the course has picked up from him?

That's an interesting question. I think in like most leadership frameworks now, whether you're leading a business or leading a military situation, people talk a lot about this idea of having, I suppose, the leader having a vision and then getting people to buy into that vision and creating a set of boundaries.

And I think like these days rules, rules aren't really the right word because rules almost means you're policing it. And in some respects, the best leaders these days set boundaries. They set, I suppose, collaborative, non-negotiables with the athletes. And then they police it because they're the ones that have fundamentally agreed to those principles or those boundaries. And I think the best leaders, that's what they do really.

They do that exceptionally well. And then it becomes policed by the leadership group or by the dressing room or by the individual people within that team. I'm sure Mikhail would have taken concepts and elements of that because he was very, very bright and a studious guy. And he read a lot of books and he was very interested in the academic side of it.

I wonder where he specifically got it from. but I think him being interested in modern leadership, he would have seen the value of that and I think he's taken that and evolved it. Yeah, he's created a really solid environment at Arsenal." And here is how all of this links into the national teams and their recent successes. The women's side is kind of obvious. Rhianne Wilkinson, the head coach, graduated just a couple of weeks ago now. She's about to lead them at their first major tournament. But the men's manager is a graduate too. Craig Bellamy is the man that I watched give that presentation about non-negotiables. 400 people were in the room. I want my teams to resemble who I am. I want it to look like who I am. Because when you see a team that's like, that's who he is. in the room.

Russell Martin is in and out. He's always on the phone. A couple of days after I speak to him, he's announced as the new manager of Rangers. But he's soaking up as much of Craig Bellamy as he can, having just finished up his own session on playing out from the back. What did you enjoy about Craig's speech coach to coach? I just think it's really how open he was with the tactical ideas, how clear he is in his demands and what he calls his non-negotiables. I just think he's someone, and you've seen it with Tim to be fair, I really enjoyed watching Wales over the last few months and I came to pretty much all of the Wales home games

when I was here as Swansea manager as well. So to watch the team evolve in the way he's doing it is really interesting and just to get a bit of an insight into that, I think you can always learn, pick up things off people. But for me, Craig clarity and this conviction in himself and what he wants is his biggest strength and that comes through in abundance and the presentation. I really enjoyed it." Russell's right, and when I sit down at a bar with Craig Bellamy, I try and tell him exactly that, but… No, I don't know if that was, I figure, being very kind. But I'll definitely take the compliment. No, I am. This is literally, this is my life. Like, I have to be honest.

I honestly believe the most beautiful woman in the world. I have five incredible kids, I completely adore. But this is like my complete passion, you know. One of the things I found really powerful in your presentation was about, sounds like a little thing, leaving dressing rooms tidy. It's a mark of respect and that's we always have to show respect to the game and respect to the environment and people no matter who we go to. No one's there to look after us, we look after ourselves. we go to. No one's there to look after us. We look after ourselves. Maybe I'm quite big on Japanese culture, so maybe that is really installed into me and the respect value. Like

I lose my head when people arrive early to work and they park their car just outside. It's like why don't you park a pervert away, let someone who's late come and park their car, you know. And I feel they're all important elements that you can help with football that actually I think in society we should have. If the coaches that have been to this conference could take one message away? Habits and I've got to be honest, body language, and that includes myself as well. And I believe that's hugely important for everything you do. If you do it, do it without zest, and the players follow that. And body language can be in so many different ways, like never show a disappointment waving your hands.

If you're not starting, do not be shaking your head because that doesn't know anything, you know what I mean? And they're all bits I have done and all regretted massively. You could take that up my game, I'll take that up tomorrow. So I try and save players from making the same mistakes I made. And I feel that's been quite nice as well. Some players have been quite grateful as well for that. I wish someone would have helped me with that. This course has become particularly known recently because lots of high-profile people have done it.

But I wonder as well, how much did you get from speaking to Welsh Premier coaches, coaches at every single level? You always do. You know, like one of the best coaches I ever had was my father and he wasn't a coach. That's probably more of the passion I have for football that you don't have to have had the greatest experience to know the game.

Some people who might not even play anywhere near a level can actually say something at the right time, that makes more sense and that's the beauty of football, I always find. I just, I don't know, this game connects you with so many people. I look at everything like a puzzle and maybe I just try and steal as many ideas from other people to fit into a puzzle. So I've not seen the perfect one. I've seen one close to it, but I've not seen the perfect coach.

And it's very difficult to be in this game. So who's the coach who's near perfect? I think we all know who that is. We've seen him, yeah we've seen who that is, seriously. I'm guessing who? Oh of course, of course. I know what you mean about stealing ideas but it's about being inspired isn't it and you're obviously very modest about it but you'll be doing that for people here as well? Yeah no, can you speak with passion? Yes. Do you understand? I was lucky when I had a manager like Sir Bobby Robson who would give you that. Whether he was right or wrong, you'll follow because he says it was such enthusiasm. And you end up playing without enthusiasm.

There are all key elements of it. And I don't know, because I had a lot of experience of managers as well, good and bad. And I really tried to learn off all the good and bad. And trying always as well to put myself back into the player, what worked for me. And I was a complicated person. I try and look at people if you were coaching me again. I needed the why. Now some managers and coaches got scared with a why.

I embrace it. I need to be able to give that, like if I was coaching myself. I'm not picking holes. I literally need to know. Some found it very uncomfortable and I never want to be that coach that a player feels he wasn't given the right. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull Racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindy, and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. And this week, I'll be answering your questions and you can literally ask me anything. I think Matt will

probably regret that. 2023 Dutch Grand Prix, I think it was practice, he crashed and he left one hand on the steering wheel and ended up breaking his wrist. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to TurlEnders. I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. Hello. And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson. Hello. How did you feel on that first game back? Does it feel good to have the white ball in your hand? I've been really surprised at how well I've coped with being hit for sips. Four-way cricket and test matches, that was something that I really hated. Kigiso Rabada, welcome to TailEnders.

Thanks for having me on. We've got a thousand wickets plus on TailEnders right now. Jimmy's got about 90% of those. No. You're still young the Welsh way. We started with a pretty big why, didn't we? Why would these legends come to Newport? Well hopefully that's a question that's answering itself as we go along.

That bar that Craig and I were sitting in is part of the hotel that these blossoming coaches are staying in whilst they're in South Wales. And yeah, if anybody needed any more convincing, well the setting doesn't hurt. Right we've just hopped off the bus. We're at Celtic Manor. Dav, is this one of Wales' most iconic sporting venues? Well, by virtue of hosting the 2010 Ryder Cup, you'd have to say it is,

and you can see little nods to it everywhere you go. There's a flag commemorating the Ryder Cup. The golf course itself is still here, and you get quite a lot of golf tourists come here. You get Americans here spending the weekend to say that they played the same course as Tiger Woods kind of thing. And even if you're not a sports fan, it's a pretty distinctive building because if you look up the rooms with the red awnings and

the balconies, when you're driving through the M4, it's a kind of sign that you're not far from home. You've just come over the border from England and you know you're almost home. Beautiful. Let's go inside. That's where all of the pro-license candidates have just hopped off the bus next to us, and we've got some people to talk to. Of course. You know, that's a big moment to celebrate. When I look back on that...

They've all moved into a huge conference centre. It's the same room in which Craig Bellamy delivered his speech. But now there's another powerful presentation taking place. There is so much good happening here. There is also an acceptance not everything is perfect. USA World Cup winner Brandi Chastain is on the stage. In a room of 400 coaches, maybe 10 at most are now on their feet. Brandi is responsible for one of the most iconic images in the history of sport. That is not an exaggeration. She's just scored the winning penalty for the USA in the 1999 World Cup final. She takes her shirt off, she whirls it around her head and she

sinks to her knees. The cameras flash. That one moment has been celebrated ever since, and she wants the women here to stand up and celebrate themselves. We have a tendency not to celebrate when we do good things. We have a tendency to say, oh no, no, shy away. It is absolutely 100% critical that each and every one of you, that you recognize that good thing. Maybe your clubs and your federation have HR. We can't take our shirts off at work anymore. Whatever, okay, we don't do our shirts off at work anymore. Whatever.

Okay, we don't do that. But maybe we pump our fist. Maybe we let out a yes. We acknowledge the good things that we do. Because if we don't, other people cannot be inspired by those good things. They will not see you doing the good things. And we need you to represent the good things. This is not an ego drive.

This is not I'm better than someone else. This is acknowledging good things. You have to celebrate. And everybody else in this room has to celebrate them. Because for a long time now, they've been present and they have not been celebrated. And they are doing great things. And I want to thank you for standing up in this room

because there's many of the gentlemen and not very many of you. And you are doing things that matter. And you must celebrate. And if we celebrate, then other people can be inspired and we can all do great things. And the future of Welsh football has a chance. Thank you so very much." One of the many people she's influenced is the Wales women's head coach, Rhianne Wilkinson, who is herself pushing to get more women in rooms like this one. Also on that bench is Brandi Chastain. So as a female player and now coach,

I think this is where we're moving things with the FAW. This is clearly an environment where top men in the game want to come and learn and push themselves. But equally, this has to be something that we start looking more seriously at for the women. And I'm really proud that Brandi's here. She's sitting, she's mucked in. She's being on the pro license with me. And this is a great step as well for the women and I'm really proud that Brandi's here. She's sitting, she's mucked in, she's been on the pro license with me and this is a great step as well for

the women's game. I was going to ask, I'd noticed Brandi Chastain's name there as the keynote speakers. I think some people would have had a pleasant surprise to see her taking a place on the dugout as well. What a start. Well testament to her, I mean she jumped in, she got off the plane, took the I think a car from from Heathrow up to She got off the plane, took the, I think, a car from Heathrow up to Newport, and then she was in with the pro license. So, yeah, fantastic. And again, I think it's the visibility of women like her who come to, you know, I don't think we can lie.

This is a very male-dominated sport and career. It is what it is. It's part of my job is to make sure that I continue to try and forge a path or show examples of women that can have a career in the game. And I can only do that because of women like Brandy Chastain who did it before me. So yeah, I think this is an exciting time and I think we'll only see this conference grow as women start finding their place here. I think comparison would be a waste of time. It's two different games that are beautiful in their own way and different.

And I love watching the men's game and I love watching the women's game and I don't feel like people have to make that choice and that's what I think the men on my courses learn that I'm I know the game I want to talk about the game I might not be able to run as fast as them but my eyes move the same speed and that's just a matter of getting to know each other and learning and picking each other's brains and I think adding more specifically female dedicated parts to this conference, like a keynote with Brandy, it's just important that we continue to showcase that part of the game because it's here and it's not going anywhere." It's worth saying Rhian is one of only two women

doing their pro license with the FAW this year. Technical director Dave Adams recognises it's an issue, and he's hoping this summer can play a part in driving change. I think the women's game obviously, I think Brandy made a really good reference to it, I think where the US was probably 30 years ago and where it is now is completely transformed. Obviously we're probably a little bit behind that, just because the game hasn't had the probably investment into it. But in the last four years

since I've been in this role, we've really focused on making sure there's genuine equality in how we resource and fund our youth teams, how we resource and fund our women's national team in comparison to our men's national team. And it's paid off for us in the sense that our goal was to try and get this generation to qualify for a major tournament knowing

that in Euro 2016 that catalyst of getting us to a semi-finals or even to a major tournament at that time had a transformational effect on growth of the game in Wales. And I think it'll have a similar transformational effect on the number of girls playing football. I mean, we've gone from 10,000 registered girls when I started in this job, not that it's my specific role, but the growth team obviously would try

and move that number to 20,000 in this cycle and we're already at 20,000. And I think the effect of this tournament will have another, you know, a big drive and effect on growth, the natural, I suppose, major traction these events get. And I think the players obviously like,

there's some great personalities like Jess Fishlock and Sophie Ingle and players that have been in our national team for like over 20 years, who are genuinely incredible role models in terms of what they've given to the game, but also a dedication and their love for this country. I think it really promotes Wales and if

you're a young girl looking for a role model there's probably no better examples than three or four of those senior players in our current women's national team. Have a play around, go into different scenarios, change the camera views, we can help you if you've got any questions around it. Brandy sticks around for a couple of seminars. There's so much going on. There's a neuroscience company doing brain scans. We follow the candidates as they wander into a virtual reality seminar. Headsets on? Yeah, if you've never looked at Premier League, World Cup and Champions League winners all nearly bumping into each other in VR headsets, I can really recommend it.

Like 10 out of 10. No notes. John Walters is looking equal parts excited and confused. front of me you get the bit of the tactics straight away. It's called hat trick yet? No I'm only I'm only linking at the moment. I'm trying to go on to those ones. Oh I break the habit of a laptop. Brandy I'm on your left shoulder. All right how are you finding this? Number one my head is so small that I'm having a hard time with headset but this is hilarious. This is bringing me back to 1980s when I was playing video games.

Little bit more advanced. Slightly better than Pong. Pong is not part of this year's syllabus, but it isn't all new age. It's not all futuristic feeling tech. There is definitely room for something a little more old fashioned. Anybody scores lads, then I'm going to go absolutely mad. We're back on the grass with another couple of sessions. Newport's own Tony Pulis is having fun teaching Tranmere Rovers under 18s set pieces and... New Middlesbrough manager Rob Edwards is doing a very energetic session. Good, good. Look at that winger. Lovely. New Middlesbrough manager Rob Edwards

is doing a very energetic session. That's a great ball. Finished! I've got to highlight it, boys. I've got to highlight it. Sensational ball. Who played that ball? What's your name?

I'm writing that down. That's fantastic. What a ball. Do you feel yourself getting a little breathless during the session then? Oh yeah, I've made reference to it a couple of times I think. Then I got to work on that fitness again. But yeah, I know what I'm like when I'm coaching. I know I'm kind of non-stop and then I'll be just gesticulating. And then you're trying to come, trying to talk to the coaches as well

and get some points across and I'm conscious of my heavy breathing. Rob graduated from this course in the same class as Micheal Arteta and many more. I was really lucky to do my courses with some amazing global names, you know superstars, and they were brilliant and when they spoke it was like gold dust but I would get just as much from listening to a lot of the guys working in the Welsh leagues I suppose now you know and I can say I've worked in non-league and I've worked in league two as well like that you know it's that real football if you like where us mere mortals are mostly operating in so they get a great balance and blend of people I know the Patrick Vieras and Thierry Henrys and Sol

Campbells and David Jones the people that we were doing it with which was amazing would have taken a lot from the guys that they were working with on the course as well that wouldn't be those household names. So what would be a good example of something you would take from one of those kind of big names that you've mentioned and something you would take from the guys managing in the Welsh league? I think the preparation and the detail that Thierry Henry would have experienced for instance,

with working under Pep or all the amazing guys that he'd worked under Arsene for a long, long time, it was great. And the stories that he can tell under high pressure situations. But pressure is all relative and we're all feeling that. So I know when I was working at Telford, I was still feeling the same heat that I would have been when I was working in the Premier League as a manager myself, because it's our baby, it's down to us, we're responsible. So I think then the realism, and you could feel it from the guys that were working in the Welsh Leagues at the time, maybe, because people like that, Thierry, were operating on almost like in another sphere, you know,

and I could relate maybe to some of these more inadvertent, common, normal guys, a little bit easier. Football is so much more than X's and O's. So much more. It's all dealing with people. And so that's why I think football can always get related to other walks of life, businesses or whatever,

because there's something that we can all take. It's relationships and trying to eke out the most in people, trying to find what people are motivated by, what's going to get them going and get the juices flowing, not just the players, the staff as well. If you're someone who wants to learn and you're open-minded, then you get yourself to things like this because you're going to take something away." We will hear from Tony Pulis, by the way, before we wrap up. One really interesting point to pick up from what Rob Edwards said there,

anybody can impact you. Craig Bellamy said something similar. One of the best coaches I ever had was my father and he wasn't a coach. This is not just about Welsh coaches getting better because they spend time with these massive names on a great course. They themselves are having a big impact on the superstars too. Whilst Pulis is finishing up his session, I'm on a balcony with two of the pro license candidates. Dante, Brazilian Champions League winner with Bayern Munich still playing, he's just captain Nice back into the Champions League. And Richard Davis,

manager of Carnarvon Town. I've seen them spending a lot of time together. Yeah it's quite a way, one of them where we're coming to the end of the course now and we've only got tomorrow morning left and yeah it's one of them sad things that you know we won't be seeing each other for probably another year but most definitely you know the bond we've created with everybody, with females like a family so we'll definitely be keeping in touch moving forward here. Yeah we have a very good connection, it's unbelievable every time that we are together we work well together and we speak a lot, we share a lot of information, experience, and yeah, we learn together.

We do everything together. So that makes me very, very happy. When he speaks about football, I see in his eyes. And he's passionate, I know, because he speaks also about the history from his team. So, right? And it was amazing. I say, wow, him have a lot of emotions and

every coach had to have these emotions inside. Yeah, for me it's just the knowledge that Dante has of the game, you know, he's still playing at the highest level and what he's done in the game, what he's achieved is unbelievable, so for myself to be able to just have these conversations and tap into his mindset and just the way he thinks and he sees the game, you know, it's so valuable for myself and we're talking here about somebody that's managing in the Welsh Prem speaking to somebody who's been in the Jembers League and played in World Cups and stuff, it's unbelievable. And without this course I would probably never come across the pathways

of people like Dante and other people that have played the game to such a high level. So for me, it's been so valuable in that networking and building relationships in a way. That's a great point about you still being a player and a captain. How have you managed to like, and you're in the qualifier for the Champions League again,

congratulations by the way, with Nice. How do you balance all that, being a player and doing all the coaching, the studying? Yeah, yeah. Good question. Sometimes it's tough. Manage the time with being concentrated as a player, to be managed and also with my family. My life is for football, sometimes tough, but I enjoy it a lot because next year will be my last one and I will enjoy it as much as possible as a player and after I think I will be ready to be a manager. So I go out of my comfort zone, that's my way, my life. I think, just to add to that, and I think when you're around Dante, he's so

infectious and he's like, when he talks and he goes through things, it's so infectious, it makes you want to run through brick walls for him, so you know, one day when he decides that he wants to become that manager, there is no doubt that he will be successful, because it's just his passion, his drive, and the way he delivers things. It's powerful. So when you go back to Caernarvon, is there any little bit of you that will have to be like, how much do I say to the players,

I was chatting to Dante, I was chatting to Nuri Syne, I was chatting to girl Clichy before they start rolling their eyes? No, if I start to say that, the lads would hammer me. It's not just football coaches influencing football coaches, either. Remember what Thierry Henri said about being out of your comfort zone? Well as part of his FAW Pro license, former Borussia Dortmund player and manager Nuri Sahin ended up studying the All Blacks. For me it was important to not have someone in football or some team in football. I just want to, after what I experienced also in my last job It was more about the culture creating a culture and living the culture and they are the best example for this And I have absolutely no clue about rugby if you ask me how many? Players are on the field. I can't tell you I can't tell you any 15 15

Yeah, I can't tell you any rule really not any any rule. But what I learned is the culture, the culture. Protecting the country, protecting the jersey, values, creating values, being good people. They have, for example, there's no dick in the team, you know, like it was really amazing. Yeah, the no... what do I call it in radio? The no bad eggs rule. Sometimes you say, yeah, one bad egg, two bad eggs is okay. Sometimes you need also a toxic player in the group because he fights and he fights the referee, he fights the opponent, but I don't want to win on this terms. I want to win with good people and if it cost me not to win then

it's just like... And the studies aren't even just restricted to sport. No, no, if you want to become a manager in Newport, you've got to be able to deal with the SAS. Basically how can you perform in a stressing environment? Here's Gail Clichy again. That time, those three days where depriving us from sleep, for example. So this will affect your energy, the way you think, the way you see things. And as a coach, you will be thinking, OK, I can't go to bed at four o'clock because I'm going to analyse the game.

But what will be then the next day when you wake up, you have three hours of sleep. So, hang on, sleep deprivation. Oh, yeah. What else were you actually doing physically? So it was sleep deprivation, a lot of walking, weave, tasks to complete, eating small amount of food, not when you wanted because you had to carry a bag with, you know, maybe 10 kilos. So the more bottle of water you take,

you know, the slower you would get, the more tired you would get, the slower you would get into the mission. So that was funny. We were under stress because of the sleep and the food, but we were not in the situation where we were at risk. All of this has just bonded these guys together, but actually it started on day one, last March, when they all met for the first time. Adi Harvey is part of the class of 2025. He's also head coach of the Wales boys under 16s team.

Around the first couple of days we did an exercise. We had to bring a presentation around the four Hs. Your history, your heartache, your heroes and your hopes. Every one of us had to kind of deliver that to the group. Quite daunting really with the level of expertise and people within the group. It just flattened any type of hierarchy or ego amongst a group and it really connected us listening to people's stories and things they've gone through and we've all gone through some type of tragedy or heartache. So that really connected all of us.

It almost felt like everyone was around a campfire really and just talking about their experiences. I got quite emotional speaking about it and what these people mean to me. And I think that's kind of reciprocated with everyone. You know, it is a really, really special group and it's listening to previous candidates that have previously been on pro licenses across all different organizations. They felt like they didn't have that connection that we have, and they seemed quite envious of us really.

One of the guys lost his job two or three months ago, high profile person. He had 21 messages from all the candidates at some point within kind of like 72 hours of losing his job. So whether we don't bump into each other for one year, two years or 15 years, we'll have this experience and it'll just, it'll feel really natural just to sit in a room and whether it's having a beer or a coffee or whatever it is, yeah, some really, really special and unique kind of connections that we've made. What's next for you then, Eddie? We have a really special tournament coming up in August,

the Gary Speed Tournament, which will be held in North Wales. It will be the inaugural one. That will be a really emotional and pivotal time, certainly for this group of players, but also the staff and us as a country as a whole, rightfully celebrating Gary Speed and all he did for us as a nation and as a football nation.

Gary's remembered for the standards and the processes and bringing the country together, how he started this process off. And we should celebrate the success that we've had since 2016. And that is largely down to Gary and what he stood for and what he introduced to us as a country. I speak to our players about it regularly when I went on camp and say like this isn't what it's always been like you know we

went 60 odd years without qualifying for a major tournament so the legacy of that is down to Gary so he's yeah it going to be an absolute honour and a privilege to be part of that inaugural tournament. Alright Daph, final thoughts as we walk the corridors of Dragon Park. There's all the messages the men's team, on the right the women's team, on the left family, respect in English and Welsh. Keep hearing this message, small country, got to do things different. This is different. Yeah, and different is the word because you can't compete with the likes of Germany, England, France,

just by sheer size of nations, resources, wealth. So you've got to try and be pioneers where you can. Maybe it's 1%, it could be 10%, we don't know. But that's what they kind of think by doing it differently. And it really attracts the top talents. And they're attracted here because, well, in Nuri Sahin's words, this is like the Harvard of football coaching.

And he couldn't really pay a higher compliment. So yeah, doing things differently because Wales want to compete as a football nation in men's and women's football. They don't want to be little old Wales. They want to hold their own. But the only way you're going to do learned in the last hour has been big picture stuff. A picture that started to be drawn when Gary Speed took Wales to Dragon Park for the first time, when he did the first press conferences

as Wales' men's manager from Celtic Manor. But we're going to finish small, because yes, superstar players are benefiting, the whole country is benefiting, but so does this city, Tony Pulis's city of Newport. Yeah, this is my town. Special feelings for the place, you know, just driving around today, you know, memories of, you you know when Pasal is where he'd park and you know when I was a little kid playing there down the YM you know it never leaves you. Yeah it's always nice to come home and to be involved in football as well and talk to people who are just starting out their careers, talking to them and listening to what they've got to say and you've got people of very very high quality from

Europe, from Asia. They'll go back with a lot of positives about the course, the place that they've stayed, Newport hopefully. You can't have enough good publicity and that's what we need." The Welsh Way was written and presented by me, Steve Crossman, with huge thanks to Dafydd Pritchard, BBC Sport Wales and the Football Association of Wales for allowing us behind the scenes. Amazing sports stories from the BBC World Service presents Bill Walton's The Grateful Team.

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