Football Daily - What did we learn from Thomas Tuchel’s first England match?

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

After Thomas Tuchel’s first England match, what will he have learned? Mark Chapman is joined by Nedum Onuoha, Glenn Murray and Senior Football Reporter Ian Dennis to discuss England’s win against Albania at Wembley on Friday evening. How much can be read into Tuchel’s first match as England manager and how much has changed since he took over? Hear from the new manager who gives his assessment of England’s performance, as well as England’s two debutants, Arsenal’s Myles Lewis-Skelly and Newcastle’s Dan Burn. The panel discuss the impressive debuts for the pair and they also look ahead to Monday’s match against Latvia. Plus, after Friday’s under-21 match between England and France became the most valuable under-21 international match ever, Julien Laurens pops by to discuss some of the future stars.BBC Sounds / 5 Live Premier League commentaries this week:Sat 22 Mar - 19:15 - Wales v Kazakhstan in the UEFA World Cup qualifiers on 5 Sports Extra Sun 23 Mar - 14:30 - Manchester City v Chelsea in the Women's Super League on 5 Live Mon 24 Mar - 19:45 - England v Latvia in the World Cup qualifiers on 5 Live Tue 25 Mar - 19:00 - North Macedonia v Wales in the World Cup qualifiers on 5 Sports Extra Wed 26 Mar - 20:00 - Arsenal v Real Madrid in the Women's Champions League on 5 Live Thu 27 Mar - 20:00 - Chelsea v Manchester City in the Women's Champions League on 5 Live

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. Hello, welcome to the Football Daily pod. We're going to reflect on Thomas Tuchel's first England match against Albania. Nader Maneuwa, Glenn Murray and Ian Dennis are with us. Ian part of the commentary team at Wembley last night before we get their thoughts on England's 2-0 win over Albania, Nader Maneuwa, Glenn Murray and Ian Dennis are with us. Ian Parts of the Coventry team up Wembley last night before we get their thoughts on England's 2-0 win over Albania. Let's hear from Thomas Suckel, first match in charge and whether he thought the performance

was OK. OK-ish, difficult opponent. I knew it before that it can be tough to create chances, it can be tough to score against them. I think we got them in the shape of the Euros. Of course they come here, they play in front of 80,000 plus in Wembley on a Friday evening. Of course they play in the role of an underdog. So they did everything to make life hard for us.

We struggled to implement high rhythm, we struggled to implement also runs into our games, runs into the opponent's box. Whenever we did it we had goals or big chances and in the second half I felt that we lose the confidence in our structure and everyone tries a little bit on its own and then becomes slower, our match becomes slower and it's more difficult to have counter pressing and to control the counter attacks. But okay, that's it. Glenn Murray what did you learn? Well I don't think there's a lull to

learn and we've been so close for so long of lifting something we've been getting to major finals so I think more than changes it needs tweaks. What I did like was not at all times in the game but during moments there was a little bit more intensity I thought England were really good in the transition. I felt as though they pressed higher up the field, were a little bit braver in that, yet they still showed patience of what was effectively 10 men sitting behind the ball. That we're going to come across loads and and I suppose if there's two games you want to step into these are the perfect games, but I can't see this group

really being tested until the later stages of the World Cup. When you talk about stepping into a game, do you mean from a player's point of view? Would that be any position? Because I would imagine it's easier to step into a game like that if you're a defender than if you are a creative attacking force? No, I meant it as the manager Thomas. Oh right, for Thomas. What do you mean by that, Chappers? What do you mean by that?

I mean, if the opposition sit deep as they'd, sorry, low block as they did. Modern language. Have the low block like they did last night and barely cause a threat going forward Then it may be easier to step into as a defender whereby all the attention And all this sort of analysis tends to be on those attacking players today and whether they did an lens Glenn's poison Concentration there you go Thank you very much I think sometimes like that is

say for someone like Dan Bowen, for example, or Lewis Kelly coming into this game, there are things going forward which we can see from them, but there's an element of concentration and being prepared and understanding of anything within the game that will limit the opposition. It's not a case of you just stand on the halfway line and nothing happens because towards the end of the game, you're seeing Breslau coming on and making a difference. I think for England, it was only one nil to a certain point. If Albania would have gone and scored, all of a sudden it's like a bit of a crisis. But I thought that those guys that came in, in attack, it's not easier because obviously you'll be judged

based on did you create something, did you score. But at the back, you could be great for 89 minutes. You have one bad minute and it affects the game in that matter. So Chapters, don't you dare start this anti-def the narrative. You're better than that. Maybe I am. All I'm saying is quite a lot of the attention, there's praise for Lewis Skelly for the goal and just how he performed in general. But in the main, I suppose the queries are, well, what did the wide men do? Yes, they stayed out wide and they tried to create space. So where would the runs from the midfield? My point is a lot of the questions from last night as centered around England as an attacking team Right the analysis hasn't been

Yeah, the back four concentrated well. Yeah, and I realized that's a but that's a massive part of football. Oh, is it? Yeah, of course. It is. Thank you. Thank you, but but it's not the it's not the sexiest analysis Let's talk about the position in transition. Yes, it is boring. I think that's a fair point. But interestingly, listening to Thomas Tuchel talk there, I watched the game and I had my feelings towards it, but the way he's describing it there is actually it feels fair. I think for the way that they were in the first half, I believe it was better and more structured than it was in the second half. And it's not to say they had a bad performance in the second half, but the way in which they were doing things in the first half felt more cohesive.

And I suppose for those players coming on onto the pitch or just being there in general in that second half, when you're frustrated playing against a team that sometimes will be in a low block, you wanna be the individual. But again, what I like, which is what Glenn said, like I was really impressed, I hate saying impressed twice.

I liked the pressing. I liked the fact that before the game the talk was he's going to try and instil a sort of Premier League level type performance from an England side and I thought that was quite ambiguous until I saw them try and do it. And for me, when a team is on the front foot and tries to make the opposition uncomfortable, the opposition will end up with 20 something percent possession like we saw with Albania yesterday, not really be able to create much and not feel like they've got a sense of how the game's going. And where I think I prefer that to previous times was I think with Gareth, for as good as he was,

I think at times he allowed the players to do what they felt was right on the pitch. I think Thomas Dukal said, this is how we're going to do it. And if you're not going to do it, you won't be playing. Which leads us down a really, really good path in a moment. But if you want to look at the control, Ian, and you were there doing the commentary last night, England have 437 passes in the first half. They have never registered more in the first half. So if Tuchel is looking at control and patterns of play and so on and so forth,

just that one stat would imply that they've carried out his instructions in the first half to the letter. Yes, but he still wasn't happy, was he? Because he just said it was okay and at times they did, there was a rather slow tempo to their play. But as I said last night, you know, you look at the next fixtures that they've got coming up, Latvia on Monday, Andorra away in June, Senegal and the friendly in June, Andorra at home, their next test probably will be Serbia away on the 9th of September. And as I said last night, it's like a phony war because England are expected to qualify. In many ways, Thomas Tuchel is on a hiding to nothing because you know qualification should be part

and parcel for this group of players. But they're going to come up against teams like Albania and they'll do the same with Serbia and Latvia when they come to Wembley because if you flip it England will top group K but those other teams their objective is to finish second and therefore they want to be one of the runners-up to try and navigate a route to the World Cup so they're going to come there to try and frustrate England and it was only when Albania started to show a little bit more ambition in the second half were England then able to take advantage on the counter-attack because up until then they were coming up against a team who were just determined to sit deep but this is an

England team just looking at my notes, they've lost one of 66 major qualifiers, and that was against the Czech Republic in 2019. So England are always gonna be the team that will dominate. They'll always be the team with the opposition that they're gonna face who are gonna have more of the ball and control the game.

That's very hard to see what he's gonna learn ahead of the World Cup for next year. That's cross World Cup and Euro qualifications. That's that. You what, sorry? That's cross World Cup and Euro qualifications. Yes, for major qualifiers, yeah. Let me go back to the point that you just talked about there, Nadim. He doesn't want people to go off plan.

Roy Keane said something on ITV last night about a team are sitting there in the low block, you're at the attack, go and try something. Go and try something. And I wonder whether this is kind of one of the big debates in football at the moment. Individual brilliance or try something against whatever you do, don't divert from the plan. Glenn, do you want to say that so I can jump in after you? There was a big breath from Glenn. Yeah.

But this is where we're at with a lot of modern football, aren't we? Well, I look at the, for instance, Wright Chappers, I look at the first goal and as far as I'm concerned, they were in their structure. Louis Skelly was high where he wants him to be. It was one of the first times he got that high. And I look at the, at Jude Bellingham and I feel as though he did something individual by taking a man on, which is very, it's becoming more and more uncommon because possession's king and you don't want to put that ball at risk, but he'd done a little pirouette, got away from his man. So within

that structure, he showed something and made something happen. Yeah, I, that's the thing. That's for me, like I understand what you think about the Tappers and what other people think about that, but Roy Keane's idea, for example, if Dan Byrne walks out and he's 30 yards from going, he just has a shot. You think Roy Keane would say, I was good, he tried something. What'd he be saying? Stick to the plan against a low block? Well, do you know what?

I can't answer for Roy and therefore I'm not 100% sure. But then again, it goes back to the last tournament we had in Germany when Thomas Frank was with us and that was part of it. And the first couple of weeks of those Euros, we saw several goals whacked in from 25, 30 yards. From centre backs? No, maybe from a full, maybe from a, did Romania score from a full, did a full back? No I don't think so. Okay, but not a centre back, definitely not a centre back.

So you shouldn't try something like that. Okay, but Thomas's point, and he would say this now if he was here, was I don't like my players shooting from 25 yards. I don't want them shooting from 25 yards. And my argument was, well, occasionally that happened. But his argument is 95% of the time it doesn't. Yeah, it's true. And I don't think it's a case of like, you're on the pitch and you're told that you cannot do it, you will not do it, or you will be dragged off. But it's a case, I believe, of just reading the game in itself. Because as Glenn was just saying there, that first goal, the structure's in place, which means that Bellingham's got space

in that middle section. If for example, Foden and Rashford decided they just wanted to come more central, all of a sudden it's really clogged. And for the players who are further back, they don't have the same options anymore. So somebody going off platform to do their own thing can affect way more people than we realise, and they do have the ability to go and do something. But the structure's put in place to give people sort of flexibility in different sorts of ways like for example you know you look at the season that Mo Salah is having he's not got freedom to do whatever he wants he still plays within the structure

of the way Liverpool play you know and it allows other people around him to be able to read and understand what he's going to do whether it's an underlap overlap somebody coming short somebody coming long so I don't think it's a case of just go and do something I think in time especially against a block, you have to be patient. But Ned, I was saying in commentary last night that in that situation, and you're the perfect person to ask, are you not expecting then the central defender to carry the ball into the midfield to push a Declan Rice further? Or is that then congesting that space that you're talking about?

I think it works alongside Declan Rice because Declan Rice himself could move to the side to allow you and having you to go forward because for the moment you as a centre back step into that space, somebody has to be covering for you because it's all well and good saying that you're going to go in there but then a lot of times because again we're talking about like... But why do they have, and that hand, maybe this is it, why do they have to be covering for you if your opponents are 10 behind the ball? No but they're not, That's not always the case.

Concentration and balance. Thank you, Glenn. You see, you've got an attacking defender shaking hands. What a big moment. No, no, no. I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm genuinely trying to find it. Let's put it this way, yeah. So... Because as fans, you go, hang on a minute, they've got 10 people behind the ball. Give it a go. Yeah, with the 10... But then as fans, when you get a counter-attack all against you, you all sigh and say, oh,

you're over-committed. Yeah, literally. There's no winning. Essentially, these players, they understand that one of the things about attacking is you need to be ready to defend straight away. You need to be able to defend and not leave yourself too open. Because as we were saying before, the game was 1-0. This game isn't done and dusted yet.

It doesn't matter how well you've played. Like to talk about a game that happened, I think the day before, USA lost to Panama. They've destroyed Panama for the whole game and they've been caught out in the 94th minute, lost one-nil and now everything is like, is a disgrace and so on. So as a defender, if I'm stepping into the space

and nobody's covering behind me, I'm immediately anxious that what happens if we lose this ball. And I think, again, the point I was trying to make was that these teams that they're playing against they're good enough teams to be setting traps so when a defender comes out with the ball maybe now that's playing more into their hands because they know how they're gonna try and get into that space like some of the best

that you're myself Glenn and us everyone has watched the game has seen before somebody that a defender steps out an attacker might just drift into that space then there's a transition ball goes in. How's this guy free all of a sudden? I think we don't give the opposition enough credit sometimes. So let's take an example from last week's Carabao Cup final then, Glenn, where Newcastle are 2-0 up and Dan Byrne goes on an 80-yard run from one penalty area to the other on an overlap, the ball never actually reaches him and he's then sprinting back. Is that too risky? Well, I think that's a terrible example, to be honest, because Dan Byrne for the last

seven to 10 days can do what everyone's trying to do. Yeah, it's also that feeling in the moment, but obviously he... So when... Just trying to understand risk and reward really. Yeah, so it's got different contexts because ultimately last night it was Konzer and Dan Burn, Lewis Skelly being pushed high, Walker being pushed high, and you're asking Dan to step in, or Konzer for that matter matter and push Declan Rice on. But like if that is a bad ball or the play breaks down, then essentially you've got one central defender

against a team that have been waiting for that moment all game and are breaking their necks and running forward as fast as they can. And that is where you come unstuck and that is where we see so many teams over commit looking to try and break that deadlock. Whereas one of the words I use right at the top of the show, how did it go, I thought they showed really good patience in build up. So just one final thing on this kind of subject is we've talked about a defender step in.

What about the wide players who did keep chalk on their boots the whole time? They stayed out wide to try and maximise the space for midfield runners inside. Again, the risk and reward here. Are you looking at Foden, and although Rashford did do it a few times and go, go on, go and have a run at your man and take your man on. Because then this comes back to a Jack Grealish point at Manchester City as well, doesn't it? And that balance between just trying to take someone on as opposed to structure stats, what else is wanted?

Well, I think that depends on your manager, doesn't it? And I think those two guys that you mentioned there, Rashford and Ford, are the ones that probably least performed in the England shirt last night. I felt as though Rashford showed moments of really bursting forward with power and pace and going to take people on which was a breath of fresh air, it looked like the old Marcus Rashford.

Personally for me when I get a look at this England team, when you've got Harry Kane and Bellingham does break through from the 10 and Kane does drop into the 10 kind of thing. I believe that we need two wide plays that naturally go beyond. I think Rashford can do it. I'm not sure Foden can. I think that's fair. And like you said there in terms of Kane and Bellingham, I think those are two players that benefit from having players out wide who are also going to stay

out wide. I think if you decide to put people in there who want to come inside, I think that caused an issue. And obviously Foden hasn't had the best of seasons. I think given how good he was last year to where he is at this moment in time, I think he'll admit that himself. But him being out high and wide provided space for those other people as you've said, and it must be frustrating for him and for the people who probably have to do that role.

But that's kind of sticking to the plan because it allows other people the chance to do other things and I get you, like go take someone on, go take someone on. But Phil Foden isn't someone that really goes and takes someone on. And especially at times yesterday, because for playing as a team that's in a low block, you kind of want them to go out wide because now you're going to double up. There's going to be a full back plus a midfielder coming over. So it's a 2v1 Phil Foden versus two guys. You know, it's a 2v1 Phil Foden versus two guys. You know it's coming back inside. Would England look different than with Saka and Gordon out wide?

Does all of a sudden that change the dynamic of that England team? I think Saka, if you had a Rashford and a Saka, I think it changes the whole dynamics massively. I think Foden did a job for the team last night. He was pretty pretty selfless he stayed wide I'm sure he would have liked the drift into that tent. It's just really unfortunate for Phil Fordham that you've got a generational talent in Bellingham almost in that ten who seems to have nailed that position down but yeah he's coming in for a little bit of critique from last night but he actually did what his manager wanted and he stayed out there and he occupied that space and he created therefore he created that space

for Bellingham inside. I think that's perfectly fair and yes if Saka was on that side which is his natural position a position which we've seen him play throughout most of his career then he'll probably play in a different manner but it would be interesting to see if when all these players are available if Tuko still prefers him to be there or does he prefer somebody else because he's got he's got some point's gonna have so many players available that he can sort of tweak it to look however he wants and best of all you know we're talking about England in relation to this Albania game. I think Tuco will have

other plans for different teams and different games because the way that say they played yesterday, will it be the same if they go and play in Albania and maybe the pitch isn't as good as it needs to be when it's a little bit more hostile and so on? But as I say with the cards he has to him, I thought overall it's a good start for him. He's actually said that as Thomas Tuchel as well, that he's not going to have just a clear philosophy. He's going to look at the opposition and he'll adapt so he won't have a set formation and a set way of playing. He'll look at the opposition and change it accordingly. I'm Alistair Bruce Ball. I'm John Murray.

Hello, me and Dennis. And Fridays on the Football Daily means one thing. It's time for the Commentators View episode. I was aiming to get there, I think, at 5.30 for what I thought was an 8 o'clock kickoff. My memory is coming over a bridge or coming down a road where you could actually see inside the stadium and I could see the players on the pitch getting ready for a 545 kickoff and I was nowhere near the commentators view only on the football daily listen on BBC sounds the football daily podcast with Mark Chapman Let's hear from Dan Byrne then shall we as Glenn says he can't really do no wrong at the moment.

Feels like he can do whatever he wants given the run that he's on. Also, I don't know what you think Nathan, but his concentration last night was fantastic. It's been a memorable fortnight for him. Definitely, yeah. It's stuff I dreamt of when I was a kid, sort of going out with the England barge on my chest and getting to play at Wembley. Yeah, I couldn't ask for a lot more. I said I was gutted that I didn't score but I've... Can't have everything. No, exactly. I think I've been a bit greedy to be honest. But I was close. I was close

so hopefully I'll get one at some point. But listen, I've had a very, very good week. I've definitely had worse weeks. I just want to sort of keep going really. Don't want it to stop. When did you get an inkling that you might be in the team? Yeah, I thought maybe I stood a chance yesterday. I feel like I trained pretty well all week which I knew if I came in and got that chance to train I always bat myself, I've got very high standards and I felt that if I settled into the group quickly and I didn't feel out of place when I trained which I was worried about to be honest.

So yeah I thought I stood a chance and as I said the manager gave us that opportunity and pretty happy with the performance, I've got second half, a few sloppy passes and I felt sort of looked tired but listen I've had a... Which is understandable. I know yeah but listen as I said I've got high standards and I'm probably my own worst critic but yeah all around I'm pretty happy. Give us an insight Dan into how Thomas Tuchel's been this week you know in terms of communication you know how much has he been speaking to you to the others more than you thought less than you thought? Yeah yeah more than I thought I think I've had sort of German

managers before not stereotype but it's normally very sort of strict and structured and stuff but he's a very funny guy He's a for example for example I got into the lift after the first day and I'd been on recovery and the lads had trained and I saw training was He said yeah, it was good. You just need hope you don't bring the standard down too much tomorrow, which I thought was quite funny So I thought that quite well, but listen he's been great around the group I said he's always said he's one to want to create this brotherhood It's been a great group of lads to come into I've settled in really quickly and this week's probably been everything I dreamt of

I'd know that I've had international lads come back before and say that yeah nationals all right not particularly England just everyone Yeah, like I'm not at first and I was absolutely buzzing off it like I'd love to come here again Yeah Well, I said you're at the start of the week. At the start of last week, whether you would have believed that you might stake a claim to be in the World Cup squad, now what do you think? Now it's Friday night. Yeah, listen, I'm desperate now. I think it's sort of lit that fire in us.

I think that being in that first start, 11 at the first camp is very important, but I know that the six, seven camps to go, a lot can change then. The football career has been very up and down, so I'm not stupid enough to sit here and think that's going to be playing sailing from here but as I said to let that fire in is I'm desperate to go to the World Cup, desperate to be in that next next England squad so as I said I'm going to have to keep performing at a high level if I want to do that. Finally I mean it must be an incredible life being a professional footballer but you know what's happened to you, I mean you are the man of the moment right now, I mean you are the man of the moment right now. That's how it is. Yeah, if you say so I'll say that. But no listen, I'm not going to lie, it has been

an amazing week, stuff that I could only dream of and it's not really sunk in. I still feel a little bit numb about everything that's going on. I'm just trying to be present because if I think about it too much, yeah, I wouldn't really believe it so I'm just trying to be as present as I can. He's right, when John Murray says you are the man of the moment, you are the man of the moment. His stats last night, 135 passes out of 137 completed, 7 clearances, he made more clearances, won more tackles and won more aerial duels than anyone else on the pitch, Naidum. That's not too bad a start, is it? No.

Not too bad at all. And he nearly scored as well. Yeah, he did. It's such a nice story. And I think the fact that he's in his 30s, it makes it sweeter because he's talking there as if he's like a really young player. So there is at times, football, the more you play it, the more sort of numb you become to things, but he's appreciative of being in that position.

And his story from being released at Newcastle from so young to winning the first cup Newcastle have had in 70 years to get an England debut but I also like the fact he's got that hunger now he wants to be going to a World Cup which obviously most people would want to do anyway but now it feels like it's realistic. Will his versatility count in his favour Glenn? Yes without any doubt I had that written down in front of me actually I felt as though it allowed Louis Skelly to push forward and they balanced off in like a natural three, Conton in the middle, Dan on the left and Walker on the right and obviously being left-footed he brings that nice balance rather than have a right foot playing left centre back. He's unique, isn't he?

I mean, he affects both boxes in a positive manner. I think there was, did you say seven clearances there? Chapbers, and I think he made three of those in the inside about 25 seconds in one part, bit of play, there was two headers and a clearance, but he's just one of those defenders that seems attracted to the ball whenever it's in the penalty area, whether it's for or against.

The biggest thing I took out of his interview there was what was he in recovery from? That 80-yard run that I was telling you about that he'd done, that's why he was having to recover. Or the late night, aren't they? Or the late night. By the way, that's also... He hasn't celebrated yet. No, he hasn't, no. You've also got the late night. By the way, that's also... He hasn't celebrated yet.

No, he hasn't, no. You've also got to know your players as a manager, haven't you? Because if you say to your player, I hope you don't bring the standard training down. There are lots of pundits, I could think of, that I've worked with who are... Name names. I'm not going to, but who are more sensitive. And that would set them off worrying for 24 hours. Oh, 100%.

But I tell you what, I bet he was a bit nervous, you know. 100% he was nervous. The manager says that to you. After all these years he gets a chance to train with England and the manager says, oh, don't drop the standard. All right, cool. Let me just focus on everything. Don't forget when Thomas Tuchel FaceTimed him on the Thursday night at 10 o'clock in the evening, the first thing Thomas Tuchel said to Dan Byrne was, what are you doing answering the phone? You're a professional. Still to be awake at this time. But you know, very briefly being around the England camp this week at St. George's Park and then the Tottenham training ground and then at Wembley, the one thing that you can judge by the impact that

he's made off the pitch is his presence and his leadership qualities because Harry Kane has already referenced him as being part of a leadership group but he's still not properly formed but he did the media and he did the media very very well on on Tuesday at St. George's Park at training he was immediately behind Harry Kane I was down in the tunnel yesterday as soon as they got off the bus Harry Kane Dan Byrne then onto the pitch Harry Kane Dan Byrne so I think his his leadership qualities something that he's talked about himself, will have really made a noticeable difference within the England

camp this week. And that's a factor because they said that they missed leadership qualities at the last Euros. Let's hear from the other debutant then who got the goal as well. Here's Miles Lewis Skelly again with John. Miles Lewis Skelly 18 years old, England debutant, England goal scorer, standing in front of me how does all that sound? Well that sounds incredible I still it still sounds crazy to me even when you say it now so yeah I'm just lost for words honestly. Life comes at you very quickly doesn't it when you're your age? Yes it's gone so quickly like just past six months it's gone so quickly, like this past six months has felt it's gone so quick, but obviously I stay in the present and I just take every moment as it comes.

As they say in all the old interviews, talk us through your goal. Well, all I remember is staying wide, rotating with Marcus. And I know that Jude, he loves to stay on a half turn dribble. And then when he makes eye contact with me and takes that touch, I know I need to threat. And yeah, it was a great pass from here man just the timing was was very good and then the finish just for the keepers coming at me and just try to put between his legs. You've only scored two senior goals you knew how you were going to celebrate when you scored

your goal against Manchester City had you thought about what you might do if you scored tonight? To be honest, I didn't even think I was going to score today, but I just knew that if the opportunity presented, I was going to let my emotions go and just take in a moment. When did you find out that you were going to be starting the match? I found out in the morning in a meeting when I saw my name on the team sheet, my heart started to pound.

So, yeah, maybe you could say there was a bit of butterflies there but yeah I was so excited to start. You've just done something tonight you will never ever ever forget haven't you? Honestly it's incredible you know you don't, this is the day I'll never forget and I should have taken this moment as long as I can before I onto the next game you know. I said it last night once John said goodbye because John mentioned something about his smile and how he was grinning and you can hear the smile through the interview Glenn. Yeah you can, it was a beautiful interview actually.

He's just on top of the world isn't he and I thought his performance was superb last night. I think there was some raised eyebrows when he got in and I I think more so when he started, but I thought he was exceptional. I mean, he's, he linked up really well with Rashford. Like he said, they swapped positions for the goal. I felt as though he had a good awareness of when to play higher up the pitch, when to go into like an inverted fullback role. And I also think with the makeup of the squad,

with Dan being on that left-hand side, he had a little bit more confidence to go forward, but all in all, a fantastic debut. What are the challenges for him and for us all in regards to him going forward? Challenges? I think at this stage, he sounds like he's quite humble and he's appreciating every single moment. But for the way that football goes, who knows? Maybe he's not going to be a starter for Arsenal when everyone's available, say next season. And that means all of a sudden he's not playing with the first team anymore for England. Maybe he's with the 21s, maybe he's with the 19s, he's that young. How does that affect his mentality? Because for now you can see that he's playing essentially week in, week out.

He's got everybody behind him. He's representing his football club. He's representing his football club. He's scoring goals for England. Like he's literally, in terms of like youth football, he is at the peak of it. In England, he's at the peak. You cannot get higher than this right now for him. So it's just a case of continuing to have the right mindset.

And in fairness, I think he's at the right place with Michael Arthet and some of those seniors around him to keep him humble, to keep him understanding of what his role is going to be. But it is great. And as Glenn said, I thought he played really well yesterday. And there were times when I'm watching the game, but I'm watching him within the game when he's off the ball.

He's trying to dictate the tempo. He's shouting to Jordan Pickford, slow it down, speed up, Dan Byrne, go over here. I'm thinking as an 18 year old back in early 2000s, I don't know about you Glenn, but my voice was very quiet. I wasn't necessarily telling people what you should and shouldn't be doing. But he's saying it and in fairness to him, the way he was saying it, it suited the moment, which shows that from a football IQ standpoint, he's understanding of the game as well. Speaking to the coaches, they say that the fear was with not just Louis Skelly, but also

Wanieri, who is an exciting prospect as well for England, is the danger to expose them to the senior set up too early, because you've got to remember that they're you know they're only still so young but I remember Fabio Capello saying about the shirt was heavy on individuals who've made their debut. I think when you ask Glenn Mark at the very start of the program what did Thomas Tuchel learn last night one of the things he has clearly learned is that Louis Skelly can handle international football the way that he played

Yeah, I agree. I mean we've we've shown a light on Louis Skelly rightfully so on Dan Burn But I must say I thought consul is absolutely exceptional in that back for yeah I think consul is for me one of the best centre backs in the league that just doesn't really get mentioned You know, he's so consistent in terms of how he defends what he's like on the ball As I say putting his body on the line, reading the game. I think he's brilliant. And also, to talk about Lewis Scaly, talk about Dan Byrne. Playing at Wembley against a team who aren't as safe forward thinking as others is one

stage of that international development, it feels like to me. But playing them away the second time, understanding all the different tasks. Because as we've already been saying, the first proper test test in quote mark, in quotations, whatever, for England might not be for a long time, but each individual game is a different type of test. And I think Tuchel himself, when he goes to the Euros, I think he'll want to know that everybody that's there can handle many different types of game. But for these two in a game where they can be on the front foot, I thought they were brilliant.

But what would it be like, as I say, when the conditions are a little bit tougher? So the temptation when you both talk about concert is then to go, so what's England's best central defensive pairing or what's England's best back three, depending on the formation that he wants to use. But do you sense that Tuchel might be a little bit beyond that in that for him, there's no such thing as this will be my first choice starting 11 because it depends on form it depends on opponent and therefore going back to your point if Lewis Skelly maybe doesn't feature for Arsenal for a month and that's ahead of an international break and he doesn't

get picked we don't all go into uproar immediately. It feels to me like Thomas Tuca will have options going forward and I think get picked, we don't all go into uproar immediately. It feels to me like Thomas Tuca will have options going forward and I think that is a good thing. But then also when he says he doesn't know where Sleight and Lame is going to be, I reckon Harry Kane will play, I reckon Jude Bellingham will play, I reckon Declan Rice will play. So it just depends how many of that core the number ends up being. Is it going to be five or six or is it just going to be three or four?

Because then maybe for example, Konz is the one that we'll be playing every time they have a meetup and the variation might be, well, is it Dan Byrne on the left? Is it Levi Colwell? Is it hopefully like a John Stones if it's Dave? Is it Mark Gahey? You know, to have those options is great. And for those guys, like Dan Byrne said himself, it's good that he played the first game because the manager's seen it and there's gonna be something in the back of his mind that knows

that he can trust him in that moment. So yeah, I think, as I say, the manager will have options and that's going to be something in the back of his mind that knows that he can trust him in that in that moment so yeah I think as I say the manager will have options and that's a good thing but I don't think he's naturally going to be wanting to change things just for the sake of it regardless of the task. Has he given any indication on how these squads will be put together Ian? Because Gareth Southgate as we've talked about before did make a big thing of players who had never let England down even if they weren't Featuring for their clubs, maybe

Yeah, no, he's not I think he'll I mean the thing is is any England squad is Is down to the availability of players. So I mean at the minute you've got you've got no Madaweke You've got no coal palmer. You've got no sucker. They would be three players who would become available There's no Lewis Hall who'd started the previous game against Ireland but he's not given us any firm indication about that he's just said you know he's here to do the job his remit is to win the World Cup I mean looking ahead to Latvia on Monday Gordon has got a hip injury so he'll be out Gibbs White who was left out of the squad of 23, would then come into contention. But regarding your point, I think it's just those.

He's just going to pick the squad on form. I don't think he's necessarily going to have his favourites, which was often the accusation from previous management. I hope he picks it on form because I think it brings a level of frustration, not only to the fans and the nation, but also to players as well. And I felt for all of that towards the end of my career. I got the opportunity, well I was playing well enough to be picked, to be rumoured to be picked and Garry Southgate just taking over and he went with someone that he knew. So for me on a personal level

it's frustrating, but I also think when you've got, for one of the better examples, Harry Maguire, who isn't kicking a ball from Manchester United, but yet is playing week in, week out for England, I can see the frustration of people that are doing well in and around the Premier League. Does that kind of... Well, Dan Verna would be the perfect example of that because Dan Verna said he's been overlooked when he'd been talked about as an England caller for the previous seasons. He's been overlooked because of maybe a Harry Maguire.

Does it spread through the game then, Glenn? You're disenchanted, I'm guessing, because you're in great form and aren't getting picked. Does there then become a group of players who are thinking, well, whatever I do here is pointless. I'm not gonna get called up. Well, I don't think I ever, I never got to that stage, but I'm sure there are some people, I suppose James Madison's one, that you could kind of highlight,

where he was exceptional for periods of Southgate tenure and he wasn't a regular. Yeah, he's picking someone regular that doesn't play week in, week out for his team. So I could understand that, but listen, I hope Tuchel goes for form, but ultimately there are going to be a nucleus of the squad that will be there every single time they get together. He's got some under-21s to pick from as well, albeit they lost last night, but what a game it sounded like. England went a goal

up inside two minutes France were 2-1 up inside seven minutes it eventually finished 5-3 to the French under 21 Julien Laurent what you watched it? I did, hello everyone! I'm glad we booked you then! I wish I'd watched it as well by the sounds of it it was amazing it was really great I mean if you're the two head coaches in I wish I'd watched it as well by the sounds of it. It was amazing. It was really great. I mean, if you're the two head coaches in Gerard Batiste and Lee Carsey, obviously maybe a little bit too open.

I think there was 39 shots, 17 on targets for both teams. England hit the woodwork three times. They also missed a penalty, R.V. Elliott. But yeah, it was really end to end and very attacking games, which is not a bad thing at all. Coaches are in control obviously and not giving away too much to the opposition. But in terms of entertaining for us watching and I guess also for the players, especially the attacking players like Eki Tike or Cherokee or Elia,

McAtee was very good, Lian De Lab I thought was very good too for England. So it was great. I thought it was a really, really good game. Hat-trick for Atikete? Yeah, Hat-trick. I mean, he's been great for Frankfurt in a team again in the Bundesliga that play very, very attacking football. So it's obviously easier when you're a striker like him with all the attributes because he's not at the level of Alexander Isak, for example, but he's quite similar in the sense that he can do a lot of things on the pitch. He's not at the level of Alexander Isak, for example, but he's quite similar in the sense that he can do a lot of things on the pitch. He's a good finisher, he's tall, he can hold the ball up.

He's very smart in the way he plays. He's good technically. He's got a long way to get before he can get to the level of Isak. But it's that kind of similar profile a little bit. He's young and he went to PhD maybe too early. Didn't really work out for him. And now in the Bundesliga, in a very attacking league and team, things are much better for him. So we will see against Perth, for example,

in the Europa League quarter-finals because that would be a good test for him. But he showed yesterday against a decent England defence really. He was a very good England team, especially in the three forward position and in midfield, maybe not so much defensively, but he showed how all the credentials that he has. Jules, he'll never score an easier hat-rick in his life will he? Oh no that's true, I guess you as a striker know that you have to be the right position at the right time right and that's certainly what he was. Glenn, you've got to be concentrating to make sure you're in the right position to take these chances, come on. Yeah come on Glenn, there's a couple Glenns. Are you using my bullets now?

Yeah. I'm telling you now no one was anywhere needing to lay a glove on him, it's the easiest hat Ricky will ever score in his international career, I promise you. The big boys are sniffing around him though aren't they? Yeah, yeah they are, they've looked at him for a long time, even when he went to Paris there were a few English clubs that were after him because he's got all these abilities. And Glenn is right, yesterday it was not the most difficult goals that he had to score but his understanding with Cherokee who played behind him was outstanding and that's another

one that could come to England very soon. What a player. We talked about him before but for me a player that takes corners with his right foot for an in-swinger and his left foot on the other side for the other in-swinger at this level is pretty amazing. So Cherokee, now that he's got that consistency, the maturity in his game, will be really a hot topic I think in the summons. And same for Hugo because the KTK has, again, a lot of potential, just need to be unlocked somewhere. Not you Jules, because you'll know this and maybe one of the other three will know this.

But according to Transfer Marked, do you know what the combined value of the squads, would you like to hazard a guess? No, but England and France under 21. England and France under 21, what's the combined value of the squads last night? I'm gonna say 550 million. Okay, 550 million. Ian?

I could be a show off here because Jack the producer told me. What a nerf. And I've forgotten it, but I know it's in excess of 900, isn't it? Glenn? Well, I was gonna just go like one or two bigger than Ned just to block him out of the game. Well, first of all, we love the fact that the producer tries to brief in and then he forgets everything. So that's a strong start. 977 million pounds. The record for an under

21 match, Jules. Yeah. Yeah. And to be fair, Chappers, you watched the game and you can see there was so much talent and yeah, it was very open and yeah, defensively, either team, not just England, but either teams could have probably done better, but especially in the three midfield positions for each. I mean, we mentioned Cherokee, Kittikee and the front three of England with Elliott, McAtee and De Lab. But even Wharton and Scott, for example, in

the England midfield and plus Cherokee, we mentioned Akliush, the Monaco youngster, really outstanding and you saw the talent. What was funny as well on the two benches, I mentioned the two head coaches, but you also had the first assistant in Gael Clichy on the French side and Ashley Cole on the other side. Sometimes when the camera panned onto the bench, you would see Cole and Clichy obviously former teammates at Arsenal. Next to each other almost in the technical areas, which was great, but so much talent on the pitch really. I don't know how many of them will really make it to the A's regularly, but I don't think we'll be far from the truth if we said that quite

many of them in both teams soon will be with the A's. Julien, thank you very much. Don't forget you can hear England against Latvia on 5 Live from 7.45 on Monday.