Football Daily - Women’s Euros: England v Spain Final Preview

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

Ellen White, Jen Beattie and Nedum Onuoha join Ben Haines to look ahead to the final of Euro 2025 as England take on Spain in Basel - can the Lionesses retain their title and avenge their World Cup Final defeat from two years ago? Also hear from England's Beth Mead, Keira Walsh and Ella Toone as well as manager Sarina Wiegman.01:28 - England's journey to the final 13:22 - Beth Mead interview 20:16 - The Spanish perspective with ex-international Vicki Losada 30:52 - Who should start for England? 44:44 - Sarina Wiegman focus with Dutch football journalist, Rivkah Op Hetveld 54:58 - The panel give their predictionsBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Sun 1700 Euro 2025 Final - England v Spain

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BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Ben Haines at UEFA Women's Euro 2025. Under 48 hours to go until another European final for the Lionesses. The Women's Euro 2025 final between England and Spain. England the current European champion, Spain the reigning champions of the world. We're going to look ahead to what will no doubt be another dramatic evening in Switzerland. A repeat of the World Cup final in 2023, where Spain came out on top. But let's not forget, the Lionesses beat Spain on the way to winning their Euros in 2022.

And joining us this evening, England's all-time record goal scorer, Ellen White, former Scotland international, Jen Beattie, and former QPR captain, Nader Benua. And I want to start by doing a little bit of geolocation, if that's all right. So Jen, where do we currently find you? Zurich. So you're pitched up in Switzerland. Ellen White, what are you doing at like 6am tomorrow morning? I'm flying to Basel. Woo, woo, woo. Superb stuff. Lioness is on tour. And Nadim, what are we going to have to do to convince you to get hold of an extortionately priced plane ticket?

Just enjoy the chatter. You know, strange things have happened Ben. Strange things have happened. I'd love to start by just talking a little bit about this journey, much in the same way that it was two years ago in 2023 when England suffered heartbreak in the World Cup final, it has been an unbelievably stressful watch, but England hoping to put that to bed as they face Spain again and could become the first English side to win back-to-back European championships. And, Ellen, I guess to start with, even though we know how much of an incredible opponent Spain are, is this the final that we were all hoping for?

I think so. I think if you would have said at the start of the tournament, what's the final going to be? And I know a lot of people were looking at the different routes, and obviously England had a ridiculously hard group. I think this is the final that everyone wanted. And also as an England fan, a bit of redemption for 2023. Spain obviously world champions, England Euro champions still. We're still saying that. So yeah it's a phenomenal rivalry and yeah two absolutely stacked teams with unbelievably talented players and both have had very different routes haven't they to the final But again, it's a one-off game

Anything can happen and I feel quite calm. Actually, I feel excited. I feel I feel England already I feel like they're gonna go out and do it. I Don't understand that at all. No Ben don't get something. It's because it's Friday No, Ben, don't get sucked in. It's because it's Friday. Ask her again tomorrow, ask her again on Sunday. I've never seen this before. Nader, were you feeling calm? Well, yeah, I'm feeling calm just because it's not for a couple of days now. You know, you're still waiting for breaking news about injuries,

what people are going to be saying about the game and so on. And then when the moment actually arrives, and you start to see the crowd, see the players walking out there before the games look around to take it all in, that's when I think some of the nerves will really kick in. I think for Ellen, who's going to be over there as well, watching her peers be out there again trying to retain a title as a national team, which as you said has never been done before from an England perspective, the nerves will 100% be kicking in. But today, as she's in her house, somewhere really nice, I imagine, she's having a whale of a time.

Jen, has it started to feel like we're in the closing stages out in Switzerland? Because you traveled out there a little bit earlier on this week. Oh yeah, for sure. And I was just about to joke that, you know, I've obviously been incredibly calm as a Scot, watching the league games.

So I'm nice, sorry, I don't envy you guys at all. But no, it's so fun actually. I think the group games, you know, you're just head down and you're working and you're trying to be across everything. So it's so amazing to actually finally be in Switzerland, being in the mix of it, seeing how amazing they've done as a host country and experiencing a bit of Zurich in that sense. And now, now yeah the hype is finally around the final and it's class to see England in it. Obviously it's half your mates, half of the girls you played with and I feel really positive actually just to kind of second what the guys have just said. I feel really good about it. I think the pressure is actually off England a little bit because Spain maybe a lot their route to the to the final has been different and the teams they've had to

beat to get there. So I think the pressure is on Spain and I think England will perform. It's not on them. Jen, of all the teams you've seen so far in the tournament, would you say that these are the best two as you've seen it? Yeah, I would. I think, well, I think you're always because you've seen it? Yeah I would. I think you're always, because you've played with players and you know what they're capable of, my whole thing is England haven't got out of third gear yet. They've shown signs of it but they've still got the capacity to go and do more and I think that's why I'm so hopeful

coming into it. And then of course Spain, yeah I'd say there's been a lot of hype around Germany and France but ultimately they've fallen again at hurdles that we kind of expected them to. I think they've been inexperienced, both very young squads and I think everyone's spoken about this style of football that Spain plays now and how much of a joy it is to watch and how you're now seeing a product of players that have been together for so many years and and now we're executing a style of play that a lot of people try and do but a lot can't so no I I completely agree. This is the final everyone wanted I think it's two teams two of the best in Europe a replay of the World Cup final a chance for for England to

You know wing back-to-back euros, which would just be an absolute phenomenal Thing to do that, you know, and everyone wants to see it. And I genuinely, genuinely think they can do it. I think as well with Spain, if you look at them, and this is no disrespect to their group, they faced the likes of obviously Portugal and comfortably beat them. Belgium comfortably beat them as well.

Obviously had a bit of a, not dodgy half, but Italy played very well that first half. And then obviously they turned it on in the second half against Switzerland. Again, they performed and executed a great game plan. I feel like their biggest test was against Germany. And I feel like they needed that going into this final, that physicality, that intense pressure,

something a little bit different. And then their kind of star quality kind of shone through. And obviously England have faced so many different nations, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Wales and obviously they've had such a roller coaster of a ride really and would you when you're looking at a group I feel like it was inevitable that a team was going to lose at least a game in that group and if you look at the side of the draw that we went through, it was actually better for us.

Absolutely horrible on my heart. Like, I aged about 100 years, but I feel like the roots are very different, but I feel like Spain needed that game against Germany to almost put them, like, test themselves against a top, top nation, no disrespect to the other nations they faced. For England, it has been anything other than straightforward. And if you are just joining the tournament, because I'm really aware there will be lots of

people over the course of the tournament that have seen this momentum building and have jumped on board of it and got incredibly excited by what the Lionesses are doing, it began with a loss to France and it wasn't a convincing performance against France for the Lionesses, followed by a really dominant performance against the Netherlands and then Wales. And then we got into the knockouts and it's taken last gasp drama all the way, penalties against Sweden in the quarter finals and then late, late drama again on Tuesday against Italy. And I wondered, Naidum, what in your mind is the most impressive part of that journey? Good question, very good question. I think it's their ability to, well for me anyway,

I love the fact that Serena Righman's prepared to make changes in terms of style, in terms of personnel, things to sort of disrupt the game itself when it's needed and I don't think as a consequence, we've seen them play really badly for 90 minutes at any point in this tournament. So they've always found a way to do something. If I had people coming off the bench you want to have an impact. And like changes in style like Esme Morgan for example could be playing in the final on Saturday but you didn't think she was going to be playing in any of the first group games. You know you're seeing Chloe Kelly's role be determined now. You're seeing Michelle Ajumang, you're seeing you know Haky B for Jones. I thought

at one point she was just going to be the sole replacement for Russoau, but then other times it's Ajamang, it's this, it's that. So I think essentially they've found a way to give themselves the chance to retain their European title and that is the main thing for me when it comes down to tournament football. So credit is deserved and I think if they do lift the trophy on Sunday, I don't think we'll be talking about the sort of nuance of that first quarterfinal game when they didn't necessarily start as well as they wanted to. I was going to say do performances matter? Ellen? Absolutely not. No one looks at the performances if you've won the trophy. No one cares, you've won it. It's so hard to win a major

tournament. Tournament football is so difficult. The first obviously thing is to get out of the group and England had such a tough group and Losing to France wasn't ideal, but I feel like England started knockout football in that Netherlands game. That mentality, proving everyone wrong. They obviously got a lot of criticism from that game against France. But you saw their fight back in that last 10-15 minutes and I feel like they used that as momentum and confidence then going into the Netherlands where they just destroyed the Netherlands They and then they probably took the their foot off the pedal probably against Wales and obviously conceded that goal Which was a little bit frustrating as well, but then you've got to look at Sweden for instance They were they had a great group. They've flew in their group

They performed really well scored a lot of goals and they wanted to go further than they've ever done before really well, scored a lot of goals and they wanted to go further than they've ever done before. It's all over, they had previously won it years ago as well but with this group and with this manager obviously leaving, a lot of older players, I feel like they had a point to prove as well but like Nadine said, that fight and that desire, that mentality, the timing of those substitution was just absolutely phenomenal. So when you reach that final and if they were to win it, who cares how you got there, who cares what happened that we lost to France or you know anything about the knockout games. It's all about now winning that final and that will be the sole focus of that team. But Nadim, isn't there another side to

this where you're looking and thinking we can't do that again, we surely can't get away with that again? Not necessarily because you say you can't get away with it again, but it's a different opposition. It's a different sort of game in itself. It's a different sort of pressure, different decision making. It's not the context. You say after that first game, well,

we need to win this next one. And maybe we can do this because it's other teams, this and that. There are two teams left in the competition. You just have to win. However you manage to do that, I think, is going to be the key part of itself. And I think for England,

talking about their perspective for now, like anybody that's played against Spain before or watched Spain before and understand that in that game, they will have to go through long periods of being able to suffer, like to not have the ball, to basically feel like, do you need boots? Maybe you just need trainers

because this is cardio for five, 10 minutes at a time, as opposed to being able to get, to attack in the way that you want to. So I think it's not a case of, can you get away with it again? It's just, can, what do we need to do this time to make sure that we're lifting a trophy at the end of this game? And that can look like anything, to be honest. Will there need to be an increase in the level of quality,

Ellen, to get past Spain? Yes, I think so. If, if, if we want to win this game, it's about trying to retain the ball as much as possible, but doing it in clear moments, creating rhythm, but then being able to create opportunities and create scoring opportunities and then England being clinical.

We know what Spain wants to do. They want to retain the ball. They want to move want to do. They want to retain the ball. They want to move up the pitch. They want to obviously create opportunities as well. They want to get into their rhythm and momentum. But for England, you know, we need to build into a game a little bit quicker. We haven't come out the blocks as fast

as we would have liked to in a number of games now. And oppositions have really taken advantage of that. If you look at Sweden, scored two goals in the first half. Italy scored that first goal as well. And then we're already on the back foot. So for England, they need to start quite quickly. They need to get on the ball. They need to feel the rhythm of the ball.

And we've got some unbelievable technicians in our team. Alex Greenwood, we need Keira Walsh on the ball. But to allow that to happen, you need to set, are we pressing the ball? Are we going to be in a mid-block? Do we need to stretch them first and then create space for our amazing talented players to get on the ball and create those scoring opportunities? And also, we can't leave Russo isolated. We have to have bodies around her to bring her into play. Do we make runs in behind? There's so many different options, but I

totally agree that quality on the ball has to be up to scratch because the way Spain press the ball and want to get on top of you and want to nick the ball off you and then attack, it's quite overwhelming. It's about suffering and being comfortable with being uncomfortable in this game. And I feel like England have got it in them 100%. It's then when they retain it, can they retain it with quality? Lots for Serena Vigman to think about then and it sounds like it will take a clinical performance on the pitch as well as lots of nous and experience as well. Something that Beth Mead knows all too well from Euro 2022 and she's been speaking to Katie Smith today about how the lionesses have done things the hard way. Oh no, easy peasy. We're trying to say you've been taking the scenic route and by that we mean, you know,

the journey's a little bit longer but the view so much better when you get there, right? Well, so true. I think we're just giving everyone their money's worth, you know, a bit of extra time. No, it's not been the smoothest ride to say the least but that's football, it's how it works out sometimes and I think that's why everyone loves the game, that it is you know late minute last minute winners or equalizers or keep you in the game and yeah I guess that's why we all love football but no it's not straightforward at all but we've got there and we've made it to the final. And you've been talking so much about this never say die

attitude and what I wanted to ask you was, has that developed more so in this tournament on its own? And why do you think that is? I mean, I think it has developed throughout the tournament. Obviously, we've put ourselves in situations where we've very much had to never say die attitude and really to the last minute push. But I think our next level as a team now is how can we do for that from minute one and till minute 90 and try and prepare into the game the best that we can. I think we've done that really well throughout the tournament but obviously sometimes it doesn't go your way and sometimes I think we've been frustrated with ourselves and not starting with that little bit of bite earlier on in the game so I think now it's getting

that balance of doing it from minute one in the game to hopefully the end. You've talked as well about seeing fan reactions back at home in England, you know, the Box Park scenes which are always so great to watch but specifically you said there was a little boy in the scenes that was crying with joy when you made it through to the final. I just wondered why that made you so emotional. I don't, I actually don't know what set me off. I actually got quite... Did you cry?

Yeah, I started getting a little bit upset. Are you on your own? I was in my room on my own at the time, thank goodness. I don't know, I think we even had a picture that was circulating in our group of all the, you know, the staff in the stands and our families behind the dugout, you know, Serena, the bench, everybody's reaction of when we obviously scored. I actually don't know if it was the equalizer or 2-1 but we were ecstatic either way. But I'm like, you're in the moment, you're focused, you try to do your job and you obviously celebrate but

it's more to it than that and I think that's why I don't know know I think there's a young boy and you've got so much obviously throughout this tournament of people still women's football this, women's football that and you've got a young boy there getting emotional over seeing an England team do well and him not caring if it's a men or women's team and I think that just got to me a little bit in a really nice way but to be like do you know what he's watching England play they've got to a a little bit in a really nice way, but to be like, do you know what? He's watching England play, they've got to a final and it's made him so, so happy that he's showing emotion. And I think that was really special for me. I think that's why it made me a little bit emotional

seeing that as well. Well, let's talk about that final then. Spain awaiting a rematch of the World Cup final. So many people have been talking about that, but for you, Beth, you weren't involved in that game because of your injuries and you're out for Australia. So, firstly, how excited are you? Yeah, I'm excited.

I think what a final it's going to be, you know, in England versus Spain. You know, the games have been very much up and down the last few times we played each other. We've won one, they've won one, vice versa. And, yeah, I'm just excited for hopefully a good game of football and obviously to end up on top. Does it help at all that having not been involved in that game that you don't perhaps carry any scar tissue from the loss? I mean, I was supporting from afar, I was a lioness from afar. I think me and Leah really got emotional during that game, obviously wanting to be a part

of it, trying to obviously help the team. And you could see how hard the girls had worked through the tournament as we have this tournament. during that game obviously wanting to be a part of it trying to obviously help the team and you could see how hard the girls had worked through the tournament as we have this tournament so to be able to get that far and not quite make it is yeah devastating I think we felt that as well so hopefully you know me and Leah are here on the good side of it now and hopefully we can help the team be in good stead to win this one. Do you feel like underdogs at all going into this? I actually don't think we look at it either way. I think we know we need to go into this game

and have the performance of our life against a very, very good Spain team, and ultimately that's top and bottom of it. We, I think, thrive under pressure as a team, but also it takes pressure off you as an underdog. So either way, I think we'll prepare the exact same way we always do. And hopefully we can put in the performance that deserves the win. Katie Smith with the questions there to Beth Mead, who sounds, Jen,

remarkably chilled. Yeah, but that's Beth. I don't think she ever, you know, over thinks anything or, but I think that's the voice of the camp, right? And I think they should be. I think, look, you've got to the final point of the tournament and I think that's always the plan and step two is getting that far further and winning it. But I think, you know what I think, I think every English England player would have been watching Germany-Spain and thinking, we

can do this. I think that's tactically similar how the game might play out. And I think watching that game, I was thinking, if England try and implement certain things that Germany are doing, I think they've got all the quality and the firepower going forward to go and score. I think you asked Ellen earlier about does England quality need to be better going against Spain in this final? And absolutely, because I think that's the one thing that Germany lacked. I thought defensively they were so solid, but when they did have their chances going forward they couldn't convert, whereas I think that's that'll be the difference with England. I think you've got the

likes of whoever's in the front line, right, whoever's on the pitch, they've got the quality to get Spain on the counter-attack and go and win. So no, I think, I'm not surprised she sounds relaxed and I think credit to them for getting this far and I think they're relaxed for a reason because they believe that they can go on and beat Spain and they've done it twice this year already. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender. With seating up to eight, ample cargo space, and legendary off-road capability,

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Including cricket, Super League, Women's Euros 2025, Wimbledon, Formula One and much more. It's all light to the lights. Adding foot to the floor. Drop shot. Winner. On five Sports Extra, Sports Extra 2 and Sports Extra 3. Listen. Next, we're going to take a look at England's opponent Spain and do a bit of a deep dive here to help us with that former Spain midfielder Vicky Lasada. Evening Vicky.

Hi, how are you guys? Yeah, really good. Thank you. I would love to know first, are Spain fans thinking we're going into this as favourites on Sunday? I think maybe, yeah, probably because of everything they've won lately. I guess they're going to demand the team to win after winning the World Cup.

How have you assessed their performances over the course of the tournament? We've just been discussing the Germany game as one of the first times it's really felt like they've been heavily challenged? Yeah, I mean, I don't think they've been their best. And even here on Spanish TV, I think the group, the games in the group were easy. The team wasn't challenged. I don't think the rhythm of the game has been like, like maybe in the, in the games in the World Cup and now you have in front of England that they know them very well because it's the same final. So Vicky, as somebody that knows both the English team

very well and the Spain team really well, for Spain to win this game on Sunday, which players do you think need to be at their absolute best for Spain against this test that is England? Well, I think because Spain has most of the possession in one game, it makes them play really high. Our backline is really quick. Our centre backs, they are quick, but I think England has space. I think they're probably going to try to exploit that in transition. They have to be very fluent on their possession and not losing the ball, I think, especially

on Ona's badger side with Loren Hemm. This is really interesting because this is one of the things that, I think, especially on on honor budget side with Lorynham. So this is really interesting because it's one of the things that made him you'd brought up before the show that you said you were keen to talk about is just how important transition will be for England on the night. Why do you perceive it to be such an important part of this final? Just because I think when you play against teams like Spain, who will have more possession

than you, like at some point you'll end up retreating to like a quite compact shape and as a consequence like you won't see the ball for long periods and that's not because that's your game plan, it's because that's the way that Spain almost force you to play at times because one thing that I think really goes on under the radar in terms of how good the Spanish side is and other teams similar is that they're prepared to take the ball under pressure and at times they want to take under pressure because they can manipulate the game to suit their needs at that time and when teams are like that they're also very good at counter pressing but if you can beat that counter press then there's the transition all of a sudden Spain aren't going to be compact anymore and some of the

players who were once spread out are now having to go full speed to try and get back into a reasonable shape. So I think when you know you're not going to have a ton of possession in the way that perhaps you want as a team playing against them, then you have to be ready and understand how you're going to try and break at them as quickly as possible. Because if you allow them to get back into their shape, then defensively they're really good. But no team in my opinion is really good when everybody's spread around the field and all of a sudden everyone has to run full speed to try and put out that fire. Ellen where would you say that Spain have potentially showed these little signs of weakness? I think we saw it in the, well I feel like in Italy in the first half where they were really exposed in the wide areas and

that space when both full backs are really attacking. Similar with Switzerland with that physicality and again in those wide areas so a benet really stretching the pitch and then probably more so against Germany when they're looking at the likes of Hoffman as a focal point and then you've got Buhl and Brandt running down those channels and really kind of enjoying that kind of battle against the back four and that space. So I feel like that was becoming quite an issue for Spain and something that potentially England might be looking at to go a little bit more direct, almost forcing Spain to go back and retreat back and then hopefully more space will obviously appear in the middle and then the wide areas but yeah I feel like that is something that maybe England will look to do in the final. Well let's talk a little bit more generally about Spain's journey to this point, not just

this tournament but going back a couple of years as well. In 2023 their World Cup win was overshadowed by former Football Federation boss Luis Rubiales' sexual assault of striker Jenny Hermoso during the trophy presentation and we've seen so many players talk about their experience of winning that trophy alongside how the memory has been shaped in such a negative way. And England and former Barcelona midfielder Keira Wall spoke yesterday about her hopes for the experience that this current Spain squad will have in 2025.

I think there's a lot of respect between both the teams and I think the most important thing for them is, you know, as a footballer is that they can enjoy this final, you know, there's not the controversy surrounding it and the girls deserve to be there, they play incredible football. So yeah, first and foremost for them as human beings is that they can actually just go out and enjoy this game. Have you been in contact with anyone at all from the Spanish camp? Yeah, I speak to Jana Fernandez quite a lot, we're good friends. And, yeah, obviously I've got a few friends from Barcelona as well.

But, yeah, she was just texting me saying about our last two games. And, you know, she said that she's happy for us that we're in the final. Obviously, as I said, there's a lot of respect between the two teams and yeah I think obviously I've got friends but it's a final and we want to win and yeah after the game we'll go back to being friends but yeah right now we're rivals. Kiera Walsh there and Ellen I think it is really really important and it's crucial to get across that for Spain we're all so desperate for them to have a pure experience in this final in a footballing sense. Absolutely. And I think Kira spoke so beautifully then as well, not only about teammates, but

the controversy obviously that was so horribly felt for the whole team after the World Cup final that they weren't able to celebrate and have that monumental moment. And this final brings them the chance to create absolute history, enjoy it, have nothing else to think about, and if they were to win, to just bask in that absolute joy of winning a major tournament together as a group of individuals and as and hopefully the whole of Spain celebrating their team of what they've done, inspiring young people and showcasing their beautiful football at the same time. And they deserve this. They've worked so hard and it would be an absolutely amazing moment for the whole team. Vicky, does this feel like an even bigger moment on Sunday because the World Cup was overshadowed for all the wrong reasons? I think so. And you know, just the fact that

them players on that team, they're winners. So a lot of them, the only major tournament they're racing is actually the Euros. So they know they have one opportunity and knowing them, they'd be thinking straight after that game against Germany about the game and doing anything they can to be ready for that game. And they have 24 hours less to recover, but in the end, the mental strength of them girls because of the experience, because all they've won, I think it's massive. Does it feel like a rivalry in Spain, Vicky?

Do people talk about Spain versus England as a bit of a rivalry now? I guess because we won the World Cup not much. What a flex. No, it's because it was England, but they good. I have to say that that game at Wembley where England beat us, it is the best final possible, definitely. How does it play out, Vicky? How do you see it going on Sunday night?

You know what? This year also we have, you know, for Spain there's so many Barca players and we have the clear example of the final of the Champions League and we had the English team that in the WSL Arsenal used to have possession, but with that mental strength, the resilience that this team has shown. And I see Spain, I have to say, I don't see them 100% in this tournament, but you know the quality of these players can change the game so quick. But I think it's going to be an interesting one for Spain mentally because

it's been so easy for them in the group stage and it was really difficult against Germany. And I think England is going with a bit of a feeling or a massive feeling of revenge. Well, Vicky, like even though you don't think it's a rivalry, if it's all right, we'll still pretend that it is. Thank you so much, Vicky. Enjoy Sunday. Thank you guys. You too. Bye bye. It's really interesting that Vicky there speaks about the Barcelona players and the experience that they had, Jen, because equally the Lionesses have a lot of Arsenal players and they have a lot of players that have got experience of, as Nadam said a little bit earlier on, going through

that in-game suffering. How much could that be a factor on Sunday night? Massive. And I genuinely, that's kind of how I've been thinking about this final, is the Arsenal Barcelona Champions League final, because everyone went into that game thinking Barcelona would win. And I do think it's similar. I think everyone knows the quality that Spain can bring, but they know there's a chance that England can win it and if they play the perfect game defensively they're more than capable of going scoring up the other end so I do think there's there's a big case of that and I hope that you know in in the

dressing room the Arsenal players and everyone in England that would have watched that game would have had hope that you know coming up against another Spanish side domestically or internationally you know they're beatable in some capacity. I'm for sure look it's 90 minutes it's a one-off game of course it might go to extra time but anything can happen and I think that Chammys League final. No extra time, I'm saying no extra time pens, thank you. We're just trying to understand. Honestly, I'm so there with you, Ellen. I'm not sure the collective sort of heart rate in England can manage another extra time and penalties. But I feel like this isn't the

perfect time to bring this in and we have to crack this open now as well. Serena always preps for the team, not the occasion. She preps for the opponent that she is facing and works out a way to get past them. So, Ellen, does she make any changes going into this one? I think potentially Beth Mead coming in. I think Esme Morgan probably would keep her place at the back. I thought she'd done pretty well and she's got some good pace technically gifted on the ball as well. Yeah, potentially Beth Meade coming in, just in terms of just her ability with the press helping Russo and Hemp as well and then also her experience I think of playing in finals, major tournaments and that

calmness as well I feel like just having that extra leader on the pitch and obviously for her her peer quality on the ball as well Is unmatched we did mention earlier on though about the game changes the players that have come in and shone when the game has got a bit spread and and Perhaps got to a point where you just need a bit of explosive power. You just need a little bit of now sort of fox in the box. The thing is though, Nadim, is that if you potentially bring one of those game changes into the starting lineup, do you lose that plan B that England have relied on so much?

So that's a good question. And I think I would probably frame it this way, like those game changes have been needed because of the situation England have put themselves in. I think Beth Mead was alluding to that fact because if we'd seen a better version of England throughout this tournament, we wouldn't not probably be talking about those people as game changes as such and instead it will be championing how well the collective had done within the games themselves. But I think the fact that they have people that can fall back on when the result isn't necessarily going their way is a positive and going into the final, like those players also have a ton of confidence, not just because the manager selected them, but because they

can show the work that they did to get to that point. But in terms of like changing the starting eleven, I think like Serena Vigman, you know, think how experienced she is, think how successful she's been in the last, well, 10 years or however long it's been. Like she knows the best starting 11 for a game of football. She does. And I think she trusts them to be able to do the job as well. And I think there was a discussion around the last game, like why bring on Ajay Mane and Beaver Jones and stuff so late. Well, when she spoke after the game she said because she could feel that the game was going in England's favor. And at that point, you've got enough quality on the pitch

to maybe score a goal anyway. So I don't think she makes changes. And I think it's probably valid because what we've seen from those players so far, and Jen, I need you to back me up on this. I'm going to get a little bit toxic on attackers here. What I would say is the fact that like an attacker coming onto a game where their team is chasing

and another team is on the back foot is like a dream come true situation. And it's not really normal for how football is. Whereas for the starters, you kind of have to feel out and go through more of the like systems and processes and so on. So in terms of like making those changes, I think what Serena's seen from those people

coming off the bench is great. But some of those traits that we've seen aren't necessarily things you'd get the opportunity to do if you started the game from the outset in my opinion. Nadiem, just quickly, is that because it's not the game? The attackers are coming on to totally disrupt. They're not playing the game that everyone else has been playing. It kind of, it's like it's the scenario, you know what I mean?

Sometimes you just play in football and other times like it's a specific scenario, right? It's 15 minutes left, the ball's been in there half for a long time and now we need to do something different like that's when Serena went to like three at the back you know that's when she's had to go with two tens and like somebody being able to roam but those aren't things that you'd start a game with it's stuff that ends up being needed to deal with a problem out there on the pitch whether and that's the same as for example you know if England are winning 1-0 or 2-0 whatever with like

five minutes ago and have been under pressure, she might just go to three at the back for that scenario. It's not for the game itself because there are other things which she'd want in general play. So yeah, like it's not, I'm not saying it's easy to be a sub because it's obviously not, but I think there are people who as attackers, as we've seen with Chloe Kelly, who are itching to get on because they can see the game state and know that it can have a huge impact with it, with the quality that they have.

And that's what we've seen over the last three, four weeks. Jen, have you enjoyed watching the way that Chloe Kelly has just impacted this tournament from the bench? Oh yeah. I think, I think that's what's so special about players that can come into those moments and, and Nedim, you just touched on it there, that the true experience, I think, comes from... Because a young player can come on and just, breath of fresh air, just go and just watch a game and think, right, I'm going to come into it and do my best. But an experienced player will look at the game

and exactly what Nadam said, figure out what to do differently. And I think that's what Chloe Kelly's coming into it. She's impacted every single time coming off the bench. And of course, every single player will want to start. They're never going to be happy on the bench and being an impact player, but I think that's what's the special part of Serena Vigman. She understands how to articulate that to players and how to get the best out of them, whether they do have that role or not. And I think it's just, it's her composure to be honest that just comes across unbelievably the celebration after the penalty I don't think I've ever seen that a major tournament just to have it saved and then

tap it in and just you know that level of calm I've never it was it was incredible to watch and I think that's that's a player who's confident that she knows that she can come in and impact it and that's you know I think credit to England and the depth they have coming off the bench. It's an unbelievable bit of internal marketing, isn't it? To sell into your group that this is a good thing that you're on the bench because actually you're a finisher, you're a game changer, you're someone that comes on is going to make an impact. Like, if you think about the last 30, 40 years of football, Ellen, when has it ever been seen as a cool thing to be part of as it's being called in the camp, the click,

the group of people that come on and change the game? 2022. Very good. Well, look, you're the perfect person to speak about this because Keira Walsh was saying about you that Alessio is doing a similar role to what you did, having to run yourself into the ground, go through all of the shuttles for the team to make sure that your tiring defence is and then the finishers come on and almost get that nice bit at the end to get over the line but tell us what it was like for you doing that first bit. was like for you doing that first bit? Being number nine is a joy, it is a lot of pride, but it's hard work. And I can totally understand where Russo is coming from in the sense that

it's a selfless role. You are working so hard for the team, you're pressing, and she probably would have liked to have scored more goals but her contribution to the the team is is Absolutely astounding and I feel like every single person understands what she is doing for that team You are running the socks off that back line. You are tiring them out. You are going back and forth You're dragging them everywhere. But then if you also see the way that she's able to hold up the ball, create fouls, bring the team up the pitch, making those runs into the channels. I would prefer it to be a little bit closer to goal. But she's just so selfless, her physicality, the way that she can manipulate the ball, her assists. She had three assists in the Netherlands game. It's quite phenomenal really, but then yeah,

she does all that hard work almost to tire everyone out, so then the freedom of those subs can come on and just cause chaos and mayhem. Obviously in that 90 minutes or 60 minutes, whatever, you would like England to be ahead and not have to have those players have to come on. But things happen in a game. But what she does is so good for the team and it is hard work. I did it in 2022 for 50, 60 minutes. But then for those players to come on and to just shine, it's amazing to watch. I feel a lot of pride. I feel goosebumps. I felt a lot of pride watching Rousseau and Thuney do it. I feel so much pride watching Michelle Adjiman do it. It's amazing that they have that freedom and that's the culture that Serena's created,

the belief and the love in every single one of her players. Yeah, for sure. And to put it into perspective, the role of the number nine in say most modern day systems is one where you're the only player on the pitch that's up against two people because you've got the two center halves there. So some of that work you have to do is selfless.

And if you do occupy those two, then before you know it, there are other people who can thrive within that. And instead, sometimes we get caught in this narrative, well, how many touches has this person had? What they've done with this, what have they done with that? But if they weren't doing the job that was required of them,

which is, you know, keeping defenders on, it's like, I don't know if you'd agree with this, Jen, but I'd love it when strikers just kept coming short. They say, off you go, go do what you need to do. Then instead when they're like on your shoulder, they're constantly pushing you back, you know, they're contesting everything. Then you know, you're just always in a game. And I think the value of say, Ellen and the value of say, Rousseau as well, like I think

Rousseau's front play is so important that I think she could be a big deal for England on Sunday because I think she probably has half a step on the two certain halves for Spain as long if it's a little andrea and if it's parades maybe even more So can she time her runs can she use the strength can she be relentless to make them uncomfortable? I don't think if you make those two uncomfortable then before you know it That's the that's the base and the foundation for Spain completely out of whack which will then affect things further at the pitch So the selfless number nine, it's a beautiful thing. So let's not just live and die by how many touches I've had in the game of football, I say.

Jen? No, I was thinking when both of them and Ellen were speaking, I kind of had the experience towards the end at Arsenal with Jonas Eideveld, but from a centre-backs position, when we'd go one goal up or two and it would be a tight game, we'd go to a back five. And I had that role of coming in and going from a back four to a back five. But just purely in a sense of having that role of coming off the bench at a certain point no matter what the game was, made me fulfilled in a way that not starting ever

could. So it's that understanding that as long as a manager translates it to you that you understand where you are within a squad, you can be at peace with it. And I think again, we'll talk about Vigmin, but that's what she does so well with her player. Every single player knows their role within a squad. And I knew mine coming off the bench for Arsenal under Jonas Eideveld was, okay, if the game's tight and we need to defend this out, you're coming into a back five. But no, I completely agree with Nedim as well. Any centre back, you want them to drop off and to go into the midfield. The last thing you want as a centre back is strikers

that are running around. Exactly what Ellen White did. And it was so much harder to defend because you think you're getting dragged everywhere. But no, it's credit to the players and understanding their role and just that's what's needed to win major tournaments. One thing we haven't discussed, and it's something that the Lionesses have been incredibly fortunate with up until this point, is the possibility of players being out injured. And it looked after the quarterfinal that England might be potentially carrying one or two knocks. We've now reached this stage where we go into the final on Sunday and there is

a big question Mark, Helen, over Lauren James. I remember we spoke about this maybe three or four months ago and we spoke about the idea of a 50% fit Lauren James. Whether you just play her because she is that level or whether it requires a little bit of careful thought given the magnitude of this game. Yeah, I think there's quite a few, wasn't there, injury doubts after obviously the Sweden game and it was almost up and down. Leah Williamson, Alex Greenwood obviously with a shoulder, Lucy Bronze with the tape round her thigh and then Lauren James with that ankle injury

and yeah obviously she's a phenomenal talent and you know it's risk v reward. You obviously don't want to get her further injured for the new season but it's a chance obviously for her to just showcase her talent and you know how special she is and obviously she can, we call it cheat code don don't we really, for Lauren James? Because she is just an absolute amazing, talented, technical player. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether Serena would risk her in the final or would she come on and potentially have that impact for 30 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever.

But if she is readily available, I'm sure Serena's got something up her sleeve. She's always got something, she's always got a process, she's thought about everything, if this player, this player, this player, everything. So she's so meticulous in the way that she prepares the players, the game plan, everything.

So she'll have something up her sleeve 100%. But obviously we wanna see a fit Lauren James and hopefully she is fit and healthy. I've got to say in regards to that, like to take us into that realm of football again, I think because it's the final, I don't think there's a 50% fit Lauren James because I think there's an element

where you could take somebody for a scan and see how bad something is. But if somebody comes up to you and says, are you going to be okay for the weekend? The answer is just yes. You know, like how's it feeling training? It feels fine. You know, that sort of desire to be out there for one of the biggest games,

which could never guarantee you'll be having again. And she knows that the impact you're going to have is there. And like, there are so many players who across the years have probably made themselves available for things where, say, if it was like halfway through a football season, they probably wouldn't. But these games are literally like the pinnacle. Here's your chance to play in this final for a chance for England to repeat.

Is there a guarantee you will ever be in this position again? I mean, who is 100% fit when you get to that final, right? Everyone's kind of carrying Knox and Niggles left, right and center. So it's not just going to be Lauren James that has pains. It's going to be multiple players going into that final and guarantee you everyone's going to be Lauren James that has pains. It's going to be multiple players going into that final and guarantee you everyone's going to be saying

they're absolutely fine. Some big, big decisions ahead. And let's focus a little more on Lioness's manager, Serena Vigman. Inglis Zellertoon has been speaking about her manager to the press earlier today. I mean, I think we've nearly killed her twice this tournament.

She said we've definitely aged her. But no, I think that's five consecutive tournaments for Serena being in the final and that's just unbelievable. We know we're in good hands. We know she's a manager who can take teams right to the final. She's done a few good speeches to be fair. This camp, I'll give it to her. We've been talking about it. But yeah, she's a a few good speeches to be fair, this camp I'll give it to her, we've been talking about it. But yeah, she's a great manager, she's someone who we all have a lot of belief in and yeah, we know we're in good hands

and you know, when we go out onto the pitch, we fight for each other, but we fight for her and the staff too and all the fans watching as well. But yeah, I mean, unbelievable achievement for Serena and for the team too. I think every single England fan knows exactly how Serena feels. And Dutch football journalist Rivka of Hetfield joins us now. Hello Rivka, how are you?

Hi, I'm very well. Talking to you from a hotel lobby in Zurich, so happy to be here. Oh amazing, you're out in Zurich as well. Are you enjoying it out there? I mean, Switzerland have been phenomenal hosts, haven't they? I mean, I wish I could live here but no one can afford it, can they? And I was at the press conference with Ella Thun, so I enjoyed that as well. So, lovely. Yeah, Ella Thun speaks so highly of Serena there, but with that wonderful sort of matter-of-fact

accent as well, the way that she's like, yeah, she's done some good speeches, to be fair. Rivka, I'm really intrigued to know how Serena is currently perceived in the Netherlands. When we had the press conference the other week where England were playing against the Netherlands, the Dutch media were very, very direct with her. And I wondered whether that was just the norm. Yes, it is the norm. I think you can see where Serena gets it from. That's just how it goes in the Netherlands. No, no, people look up to her greatly. I think it was already amazing what she did in the Netherlands with the Euros, with the final of the World Cup. And for her to do it all over again, I think it says a lot that when the Netherlands are out of a tournament, there is no questions asked that I will stay in the tournament to follow the English squad because that's how big Serena Wichmann is.

We just want to know everything about her during a tournament. And no surprise there for you, Ellen. I imagine hearing that the media were as direct with Serena as she was with you guys as players. I don't know. Absolutely. But I think that's what we loved and we thrived off, that directness, that honesty. And I feel like as female footballers, that's what you want. You want to know where you stand. And we want to know what our role is, our responsibility, what's our philosophy,

what's our game plan. But on the same, yes, she is honest, but she's also an amazing human being at the same time. You know, she's not just that one person just, you know, speaking so direct all the time. She speaks to you on a human level. She's a good person and she's phenomenal what she does. She made my dreams come true and I'll be forever kind of thankful to her. We've looked back over the last hour or so and spoken so much, Rivka, about how unified this Lionesses group seems. And over the years, people have often spoke about Netherlands teams at tournaments sometimes being a bit divided. Did she manage to bring that Netherlands side together?

I feel like she did. I think it's really interesting because I've been to all the major tournaments since 2017 and in 2017 I saw the Dutch squad and there was just something about them, something about the togetherness and their attitude and just the atmosphere around them that made you feel like they were going to become the European champions and the only other time that I had that was three years ago with the English squad in 2022. So there's something about the way she brings a team together that just there's kind of something magical about it, isn't it? It definitely has that feel. And I think, Jen, the other thing is that when you listen to the players talk, they sound so totally invested in what she's doing as well. Yeah, I think as soon as you hear players and even listening to Ellen speak, like making our dreams come true, and they're like powerful words.

Players are clever, they're not going to say things that they don't mean. I know there's this whole media training thing, but I think what you're listening to is very honest, very transparent, and that's kind of exactly how Serena Vigman, I think, would want her players to be speaking. But no, I think it's, they come across as so authentic is the word I'm looking for. They really feel like they're speaking their true self and really believe in what they're saying and I think it's a credit to Vigman and what she's built and the culture she's built because English culture or British culture is much more subtle. It's not very direct where she's built because English culture or British culture is much more subtle. It's not very direct where she's come in and given exactly what players want.

I think a lot of us have played under managers that you know aren't direct and kind of make up different reasons and excuses and you know you're always kind of leaving a conversation thinking I've not really any idea what they've we've just spoken about or not really had answers from them whereas I think a lot of players get answers from Vigmin it is very clear and I think that's all a player ever wants. So I think the words that they choose when they're describing are spot-on and I think it's when you're listening to it as a retired player you're kind of like, you always think I wonder what that would have been like to

have worked with them because it sounds incredible and I think that always comes across. From a professional standpoint and then a personal one as well. She always seems like she understands the importance of football but understands the human being behind the footballer even more so. It is really fascinating hearing how bought in the players are both in terms of what Serena's doing behind the scenes but also Rivka in terms of the style of football. One of the things, I don't know if you've seen this, but one of the things that it feels like journalists and the players have been speaking about a lot is this proper English football. And I wondered, has Serena's style changed and how do people perceive it in the Netherlands? I mean, I think it also depends on the tournament, doesn't it? I think 2017 and 2022 were different kinds of play in the

sense that maybe it went a bit easier. Right now, the English squad needs this. They need the English style to be this kind of toughness where they have this never say die attitude. Maybe they needed more than a couple years ago. And I think actually that her style of play didn't necessarily change so much. I can still see some of the things that she implemented into the Dutch squad. I can see now in the last couple of years and in this tournament. For me, it's more about how she puts herself out there that really changed for me. I think if you look at 2017 and how she presented herself to the media, I did some of the first interviews with her as a national team coach. And if I look at the journey she made and how she can carry herself, she's such an impressive personality, even in press conferences and

interviews at speeches, apparently. But also the fact that she can be more herself, I can see she's a really funny person. Ellen will know this see she's a really funny person. Ellen will know this. She's a really funny person, but in the last couple of years, you can actually see that. And she is not scared to show herself more in the press also. Rivka, take us into that a little more. What would you say is the biggest change you've seen in terms of the way that she presents herself? I think in the first couple of years in the Netherlands, if you talk to her, she would, I mean, she's obviously a perfectionist. She wants everything to be done well, but she

also could never take a breather. She was always serious. She was always talking about football. If you would try to make a joke in an interview, she would always bring it back to a certain style of play or four through three. And right now I think she carries herself and she's a big personality and she shows it. Yeah, there was a brilliant moment in the, I think it was the England Netherlands press conference at the time, where one of the journalists asked her which player she thought would do the best in Love Island. And she instantly just went, nope, just didn't even entertain it at all. Let's hear from the woman herself now ahead of Sunday's final. She's been reflecting

on what her England team have achieved since she took over in 2021. I think already going into the finals is incredible and what you see 22, 23 now this year rose, these three major tournaments, different situations, different teams the injuries before the World Cup, the challenges we have now in the tournament which the game is improving so much and I think that the game says enough that the intensity of the games, the quality of the games has improved again and then staying on top, that's incredible and that costs hard work

but yeah, it's just, yeah, I'm really enjoying it and it's very exciting. When you think back two years ago to that World Cup final, of course against Spain, I'm sure that defeat lives on in your head somewhere, how much are you using that as motivation for the players come Sunday? Not, I'm not using that motivation. I think we know each other so well, we respect each other a lot. You can feel that respect from each other. We've played each other in the World Cup, in the Euros, in the Nations League. So we know each other really well. What we're trying to do now is get the best possible game plan and get everyone fit and ready for Sunday so we can make the best

decision and play at our best. And then hopefully that will bring us the win. Joe Curry with the questions there to England manager Serena Vigmen. And Rifford, just before we let you go, something you mentioned a little bit earlier on, and I was intrigued by this. Do you think largely people from the Netherlands will be supporting England on Sunday? Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously a lot of football fans like the Spanish side of play, they have a lot of big names, but I think the English squad is, yeah, they have a couple million extra fans from the Netherlands on Sunday. Lovely stuff. Rivka, thank you so much. Enjoy Sunday. Thank you. I feel a little bit more chill about the final than I did.

Nadim, how do you see it playing out? Do you know what? I can't call it. I think a better game, in my opinion, probably comes if Spain score first because then I think we'll see a version of England in terms of them flying forward. Whereas I think if it goes the other way, then it's that rear guard incredibly nervous tension that will exist amongst the England fans like checking there's nothing worse I don't know if if Jen and I would agree here there's nothing worse than when you check the time and you see it's only been like two minutes since the last time you checked you know you could turn into one of those games

yeah you don't you don't want one of them you do not want one of them so I think a game where England are almost forced to come out on the front foot because of say scenarios and so on you You know, that's something that's a bit more exciting for me. But in terms of how the game goes, it's too tough to call. And I wouldn't be surprised if it takes two hours with the football and some kicks towards goal from 12 yards to make a difference, to be honest. Ellen. Don't say that, Nadia. My heart can't take that.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. England win. Simple as? Simple as. Take me into, what is the version of that England win that you're after? And I assume it's just any victory will do, but in order to have that smooth experience, what do England need to do? I assume it's start better than they have been.

I do like the idea of what Nadim says though, like conceding first and then just that dramatic ending then we just score two at the death and then you know but in 90 minutes and you know actually you see chaos. I don't necessarily think it's gonna be a beautiful game of football, I think it's just getting the job done at the end of the day and what how amazing would it be Michelle Agyeman to come on again and score? That would just be beautiful What a story what a fairy tale? It would be very fitting Jen going you're almost neutral here. Tell us how you see it going

I'm really not I can honestly see England doing it. I think Spain will still score, but I'm thinking a 2-1 England. I think classic counterattacks. I think that's the way the game's gonna play. I can still see Spain scoring though. They just have so much quality and I think they'll have watched back their Germany game and known where they can do better and really analyze that down to a T,

but I've got the faith in England, all good. I think I'm still saying 2-1. Love that confidence. Absolutely love you, stuff. And that is where we'll leave it for tonight. We've got commentary of the final of Euro 2025. England against Spain on five live sport from five o'clock on Sunday,

with plenty more buildup across the weekend. There was terror that it could tear the house down. weekend. English football has been dreading. Bloodgate. I'm not sure we've had anything like it before or since in terms of what it actually meant for the sport. Sport's strangest crimes. Listen on BBC Sounds.