Football Daily - Women’s Euros: England & Wales prepare to clash

Episode Date: July 12, 2025

Katie Smith looks ahead to England vs Wales at UEFA Women’s EURO 2025.She’s joined by Steph Houghton, Nedum Onuoha, Vicki Sparks and Danny Gabbidon. Also hear from Grace Clinton, Ella Toone, Sarina Wiegman, Angharad James and Hannah Cain.Timecodes 03:05 All to play for for England & Wales 04:35 Excited for Spain-Switzerland QF 09:35 Wiegman gets tactical tweaks right 13:00 Which England is the real England? 17:35 Grace Clinton INTERVIEW 24:50 Shutting out the outside noise 33:25 Ella Toone INTERVIEW 34:35 Wales chat with Danny Gabbidon 39:50 Hannah Cain INTERVIEW 42:35 Will Sarina Wiegman make changes? 43:46 Angharad James INTERVIEW 44:54 Sarina Wiegman INTERVIEW

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily podcast with Katie Smith at UEFA Women's Euro 2025. Welcome along to the Football Daily, ahead of England against Wales in the final group game of Euro 2025. So to mark your cards, live commentary to come on 5 Live Sunday night, 8 o'clock kickoff. At the end of the pod, we're going to hear from England boss Serena Beegman and Wales captain Angharad James. But with me for today's episode we've got commentator Vicky Sparks alongside me in Zurich, former England skipper Steph Horton with us and former

Premier League defender Nadim Anoua. Hello everybody, how are we? Are we dealing with the heat? Their studio is nice and air conditioned to be honest. We're children here. Well I was going to ask either of you, did either of you make it to the Oasis gig last night in Manchester? Because you're both in Manchester aren't you? I saw Pep Guardiola was there. Yeah.

I don't know how we've not managed to get there to be honest. Well if I... Seems like an oversight. If I was to tell the truth I think I might be cancelled right now so do you want me to carry on or not? So it's you Katie. Please tell us everything. I had tickets. We were supposed to be going as a four and then in the last week I just didn't, I couldn't bring myself to do it so we ended up going going somewhere else

instead and dodging the heat and a hundred thousand people. Who did you give the tickets to? A good friend of mine even though... Am I not a good friend? Not step one! Oh my god I just bought you a coffee as well! No they helped me get the tickets so I helped them on the other side but yeah it's literally five minutes from my house as well but I bottled it. You did didn't you and I'm so disappointed in you that you didn't give me the tickets. It's quite an animation to start the hour with. I mean to be fair it looked absolutely chaotic, wonderful but chaotic. It looked amazing no? There was some questionable liquids being thrown around. Anyway let's talk football. Steph you were here with us in Zurich just a couple of days ago for that There were some questionable liquids being thrown around. Anyway, let's talk football.

Steph, you were here with us in Zurich just a couple of days ago for that massively important game for England against the Netherlands. Is it sort of weird coming home now and kind of being disconnected slightly from what's going to happen tomorrow? Yeah, you know what? I had the best time, you know, even better that the girls won. I think you go over there with so much expectation, but also being on the other side, obviously, from playing and being part of a tournament as a player, but then going and being part of the press conferences. Obviously, the media days was doing the football daily podcast.

Stuff like that was so different. But I think, yeah, I kind of didn't really want to come home, if I'm being honest. We'll try and bring you back out again. We'll make it happen. Nedim's fuming, because I'm not with him now. I've heard Switzerland's a great place, yeah, I kind of didn't really want to come home if I'm being honest. We'll try and bring you back out again. We'll make it happen. Nedham's fuming, because I'm not with him now. I've heard Switzerland's a great place for everybody, but yeah, Salford's far nicer. No one's been invited yet? No, I haven't. Never mind. No one's been talking about the gorgeous lakes, the lovely atmosphere, have they?

No, no, no. It's just pretty awful. The nice key over here in Salford. Vicky's sitting alongside me as well. So before we drill into Group D, Vicky, ahead of England and Wales tomorrow in St. Gallan, should we look at how things stand? Because what I think is massively interesting about Group D, and we've been calling it the tightest, toughest group of all, is it is the only one going into the final round where technically all four teams are still live.

Yeah, absolutely. I've been going through the permutations this morning, which is obviously something we love to do as commentators. But yes, England in a very good position after that fabulous win against the Netherlands. So they will be through to the quarterfinals if they win against Wales or if they draw and the Netherlands don't beat France or if they avoid defeat by four goals or more and the Netherlands lose. So that would be through to the quarterfinals. They'll finish top if they win and the Netherlands beat France brackets by a margin of fewer than seven goals. So essentially if the Netherlands

beat France and England win, then they'll go through top. Wales, it's so difficult for them, isn't it? They've got their first goal at their first major tournament. The only way they could reach the quarterfinal is if they win by four goals or more and the Netherlands lose to France. I mean, it's been such a wonderful occasion for Wales. And I know we're going to be speaking to Danny Gabadon, who's been following the team out here for us later. But they could still, of course, for themselves, first and foremost,

playing for Pride, looking to get perhaps their first point at a major tournament having got that first goal through the incredible Jess Fishlog but if they did get a point they could throw a spanner in the works for England as well which I'm sure they'd enjoy. Oh it sounds like they would absolutely relish it from everything Danny Gabbard on has been telling me so far this week. So we'll talk about that in a moment in terms of other quarterfinals and group permutations at the moment so we do have two quarterfinals set already. Live commentary of both of those coming up on Five Live. So Wednesday night, it's going to be Norway against Italy.

We've got Spain, the world champions against the host Switzerland on Friday night, Steph, which is, it sort of feels mouthwatering in the billing of it could be quite a tricky night for Switzerland, putting it mildly. Yeah, I mean, that's Spain-Switzerland won. I think Switzerland, especially in that first game against Norway, they deserve to win, to be honest.

I think what they brought in the first half, they brought a lot of energy. They created chances, but I think the way that Spain are playing and the players that we seem to be continuously speaking about was Patrice especially after she missed the last one with a knee injury I think her performance she's such a key player to Spain and the Spain Italy game was really good last night I think in terms of Italy give them some problems which I think we were quite surprised at even though we have called them dark horses. You have called them a dark horse then. I have and they played well last night, to be fair, they've qualified to the quarters,

so they've done all right, haven't they? Well done, yeah, it's a good take for now. Yeah, it is, yeah. So, no, I think Spain, I'm looking at all the teams and to be honest, it's quite open, this competition, when it gets to the quarterfinals. I think there's not one team that's massively stood out. I mean, Spain have been really good in attack,

but Italy caused them a lot of problems defensively. So that'll be definitely an interesting quarter final for Schürr. And they conceded those two goals against Belgium, Nadam, of course, scoring six in the process to come from behind. If we, well, this may be an ominous sign. Spain have scored 14 goals in their three group stage matches to progress through to quarterfinals. Joint most by a team in the group stages, of course, who are they matching, Nadam? England back in 2022. So I don't know if we can read anything into that, but are you suggesting there are some vulnerabilities, Steph, in terms of their back line? Yeah, definitely. I think because Spain

like to control the ball, they a very very high line and necessarily the centre half's not really blessed with pace but that's because they're probably not used to defending as well so I think Italy in terms of their plan last night was very good in the sense of the try to get in behind that Spanish back four but ultimately you have to have the ball and Spain are very very good at having the ball over these last two games and three games and attacking is their strength because they have so much quality in them forward very, very good at having the ball over these last two games, three games and attacking is their strength because they have so much quality in them forward areas, they're able

to rotate their team as much as they can but I do feel as though from a defensive point of view I think teams like England if we do meet them or Germany, Sweden, they can really hurt Spain if they really wanted to go for it. I think that's it, that it's not been the most difficult group. I mean I'm excited to see what Italy can do in the knockout stages and I agree with what's been said, I thought Italy were brilliant in the way they started against Spain and exposed some of those defensive vulnerabilities. But Spain haven't played a Germany, they haven't played a France, they haven't played an England.

Look, we know that they can obviously beat all of those teams but they will be tested much more in this tournament as they go deeper into it. So we'll head into group D, a group that includes both England and Wales. They play each other tomorrow night. We're bringing you commentary at eight o'clock here on Five Live. England need a win, any sort, and they will be through to the quarterfinals. France taking on the Netherlands. Nadim, if I read you out the opto stats of who they think has the best chance of making it through to the knockouts.

France at 97%, England at 91%, Netherlands at 12%, and Wales at 0.1%. I mean, it is strange what a difference a week makes, right? Yeah, absolutely it is, but in some ways, like Steph, would you say you're surprised that England beat the Netherlands? No, I was very confident going into that game

that they were gonna win. Yeah, same. Like the reactions to the first game, I think is a very true and apparent one because France, one of the teams who were being considered for a team that could go all the way. I don't think the Netherlands were as such, even though they won it, say, two times ago.

So England's reaction there and the way that they played, I thought England would play well. I didn't think the Netherlands would play as badly as they did, but maybe in fact they showed their true colours because the first game, with all due respect being against Wales, was probably a softer opener for them as opposed to England being straightened. But did you think England would play better against France? I did, yes. I didn't necessarily think they were definitely going to win, but I thought they would have played better. But in fairness, to give them credit, that reaction is one of the reasons why it's very easy to back them from this point forward. Because they had this low list drop and they were criticized, you know, they had to look at themselves.

And they stepped forward with a much better performance. And obviously, the game against Wales will be a different sort of test than itself again. But going into the knockouts, they all have that belief back, which maybe wasn't there as they're working off the pitch in that first game. So I'm a believer in them. The Netherlands themselves, like the 12% chance. I was hoping he was gonna say a bit higher, to be honest, when he said 97, 91 and whatever, but 12 is not great.

But you can see it based on the fact that you're expecting them to win. And for the style of play that like France have, I don't think Netherlands match up well to that. So as a consequence, I see why the odds are in that, in have, I don't think Netherlands match up well to that. So as a consequence, I see why the odds are in that sort of spot. But it's football. We never know. Yeah, we never know, do we? Yeah, we never know.

I think the biggest thing in terms of that England performance was the tactical changes working to a tee. So I think so many of us, even when the starting lineup was named against France, you look at that French midfield three and yes if Lauren James is available you want her to start but should she have started out wide, should Toon or even Clinton have started to give a little bit more physicality in that specific game against France because of how strong their midfield three are. It was clear that the full backs Carter in particular at left back was really struggling with the pace of Cascavino and bronze wasn't having her best game either. But the changes that Serena Vigman made in bringing Ella Toon into attacking midfield and putting James out to the right hand side and crucially

switching Jess Carter from left back to centre half and putting Alex Greenwood out at left back worked an absolute treat. Now I think the frustration from some England fans from that left back centre half switch would be, well, why didn't that happen at half time against France? Might that have helped? But credit to Serena Vigman. She looked at it. She knew that the change needed to be made and that worked a treat. And I think we've seen her do that before at major tournaments, haven't we? Yes, that it worked to a tee, the game plan, the starting 11 and the substitutes three years ago. But when it wasn't working at the World Cup two years ago, she switched to a back three and moved the team around.

And I think it's hugely encouraging to see that that has happened. And it also, not only just for that plan going forward, but if there are other tactical changes that need to be made, she's going to be able to make them, hopefully in time. Yeah, I think that's all fair. But where I would sort of throw water on this a little bit, and again, Steph being a former captain, England player, someone that can very much

speak to on this, I feel like if Alex Greenwood had played left-back against France, he would have had the same treatment against Casca Reno. Yeah, I think that's what we kind of try to delve into before the Netherlands game. I think there was a lot of talk around Jess Carter and her performance and Lucy Bronze but I actually think it was a tactical thing from the whole team. I don't think we pressed very well. I don't think the wingers really give our full backs that much protection but I think sometimes you just get players where they're so hard to handle. And I think Cascagrino, especially when she's on her day, that was her day against

England and I think we knew that with France in terms of their individual quality that they're able to and this has been the problem with France over the last few times I've always had these great individual plays but they've never performed in the bigger stages and I think that was a statement from them against England and I don't think England did the things that we presume England would always do yeah I don't think they won the battle first I don't think one v one I don't think we were very good in duels, but I agree with the reaction from the girls, it was unbelievable in the sense of there's a lot of pressure going into that game and we've been there before. I remember 2015 World Cup we got beat off France, which was funny, we got beat 1-0

and we had to go and win against Mexico and we went in the stadium and we were actually watching the previous game before and we see that the result is we still have to win and yet and to go under that pressure it's hard so to go under that pressure do what you need to do and win but also perform the way we did but I do agree with the kind of tactical changes I think Lauren James has to be in this team and I think we have to allow her to have that responsibility of just being able to go and create our goals score our goals without that thought of just being able to go and create our schools, score our schools without that thought of when you're in the middle of park,

having to do the kind of dirty work that Ella Toon came in and did really well. I do wonder, Nadam and Steph, if it does beg the question though here, which England is the real England? We've seen them twice now. We saw the France performance, we saw the Netherlands performance.

And the reason I say that is because we know what they're capable of. Of course we know the quality in the side but inconsistency is not a new problem for them and we have seen this pattern over and over again over the last what 18 months that they can put in something stellar you know say against the world champions at Wembley beating Spain and then struggle against a side like Portugal straight after? I agree, you know, I do agree with the inconsistency. I think this year especially, I think we've seen some performances where we're like, we know we can be better, we know we can do better,

we know individuals can perform better. And I think that inability to keep consistently doing that is hard as a player like Ned and Mille know the best players are always ones that are consistent. I think sometimes as well the opposition are getting better. We play in a certain way a lot of the time and say for example France they try to hurt us by pressing us really, really aggressively in our final in our defensive third and putting our back forward under pressure allowing them to press in the midfield. So I do think it's a bit of both. I think opposition are getting stronger. I think they're trying to be tactically better than what England are. But ultimately, I think if we're able to make them tactical changes, sometimes it gives us a better chance. And

we have the players to do that as well. For me, in some ways I would go the other way and say, when it comes down to some of these international breaks and so on, I think in the minds of some other players there are other things that are going on. You've got this game, you've got that game, then you're going back to your club side and you've got other things to work out. Whereas now, this is England playing tournament football and with obviously a mention to the first game against France, let's look back at the previous six or seven games that they

had where they went on to win the tournament itself. Yeah. I think there's something about them when it's knockout football, which draws them to a position where their performances will be stronger. I think obviously, as you look back to say the World Cup last time as well, they weren't perfect along that journey, but they had a chance to win a World Cup. And that's the thing though in tournament football is it's just about finding that way to win. Yeah. And I think they've got the ability to do that. Because they've got experience because they've been there, done it before. I know it's a bit of a new group in terms of that 2022 group. It's probably half are still there, half are not.

And there's new players coming through so they can draw on that experience. But I do 100% agree in terms of in tournament football, you've just got to do what you've got to do. It's not necessary about the performances. Yeah, I would agree. And I think for all the teams that will be left in this tournament after say Group D's done and so on, which is a team where you think yourself, England will definitely lose to them because I can't think of one. No, and I think I had a conversation with the producer just before going on air.

And I'm like, actually, this tournament is wide open. 100%. After these group next to group games in sense of, okay, Spain, yes, Spain have been spoken about because of the goals that they've scored but ultimately you're looking actually they're quite vulnerable at the back the same as Germany we probably didn't see them losing to Denmark 1-0 in the last game Sweden are probably a team where you're thinking they're quite strong but have they got the X factor to go and win in comparison to what England's attack is yeah so it's an exciting tournament in

the sense of I think England being able to bounce back against Netherlands who were poor on the night with the players that they have. They didn't ever really have that kind of combination between the back to the front line. But yeah, pretty much, we're in a bit of a good position, I think. I'm quite enjoying listening to this. It made me feel confident. Vicky, you want to come in? Yeah, because I think the point about momentum and experience in major tournaments that England have garnered is so key and also it's something that Serena Vigman does to a tee. She's looking to reach her fifth major tournament final in a row, two with the Netherlands, two with England, and I think it's interesting. I remember being in France for Five Live in 2019 covering the Lionesses and being around the Dutch

camp when she took them to the final and the Dutch media were incredibly critical of Netherlands performances until they reached the final. There was a lot of critiquing of the way that they were playing, the performances and they still reached the final and suddenly it seemed as though the Dutch media went, oh well no actually you have done quite well to reach the final but that's it. You don't even need to necessarily play that well but having that ability to pull out results in major tournaments is something that England have done certainly under Vigmen but Vigmen has done this for years and years and years. It sounds like a very familiar narrative that we had in our own media leading

into that World Cup final a couple of years ago. Let's hear from one of the players then. Grace Clinton, who wasn't part of that group in 2023, knew into major tournament life, the midfielder. I caught up with her yesterday and we were talking about getting back to winning ways. That performance is more like what we are capable of, so it's nice that we could sort of do our talking on the pitch and show the world, you know, this is what we actually can perform like. Was there a sense of relief at all after that? Yeah, obviously, you know, it was a big game. We needed to win and Neverland's an amazing team, but I think relief,

we were proud and we were also just like, wow, like what a performance. Like maybe a bit defiant as well, because there were people saying that wasn't good enough against France. Yeah, and I think I like to be in that position, when people judge her and you sort of like a bit of an underdog, people like, ah, maybe ruled us out a little bit after the France performance,

but then we go out there and we shut everyone up and just, yeah, like I said, do our talking on the pitch and show them, no, this is actually us. And it's not just any game coming up on Sunday, it's against a home nation, it's against Wales, it's against some of your current and former teammates as well, you know, a lot of those players in the side. So does that make it any trickier? Yeah, well, I know what they're capable of.

I know how good some of the Wales players are, played against them, played with them and obviously people speak about a rivalry but I think the main mood in our camp is we have a lot of respect for them, we know a lot of them, we know how good they can be and they can cause problems like they showed against France so yeah I think all of us are very focused and know what the task at hand is. We've been hearing a lot about leaders in the group and particularly Georgia Stanway the other day

talking about Lucy Bronze and what impact she's having on everyone in the team. And it looks like she's a pretty special character for you as well. Yeah, Lucy is massive for me. She's like a second mum, but one that tells you off. Oh no, really? No, she doesn't tell me off, but she like,

she doesn't say- Put you in your place? Yeah, she puts me in my place, but Lucy's just like, she's amazing, cause she like, Lucy's not over the top, she doesn't smother you, she like keeps herself to herself. I think she leads in how she carries herself, and she leads by example, I would say, but if you need anything, she's always there and she gives like such good advice

and she's just so experienced and she's an amazing footballer. So I think it's hard for anyone not to have so much respect for her. Cause we did hear you were trying to take filling out the wall chart duties off her and she wasn't having that. So I just wondered how's that going?

She allowed you near the pen yet. I seen her yesterday like on the chair, like filming it all out and I thought oh my god she's in an element but no I was trying to manifest so I was like right let's put us in the final there we go manifest them. Oh what you actually wrote England in the final? No I took our little badge and I was like right there we go let's sit there and she was like no put it back. Oh so that was like, no, put it back. Oh, so that was like Mother Lucy coming out. She was like, that's my job, but I was like, fine. My main takeaway, Steph, is you did not get between Lucy Frons and a wall chart, right?

No, you don't, and I can actually remember some of the tournaments, especially World Cup in France where you don't touch the wall chart. That was just a thing that everybody did. I know that me and Ellen used to room together and we always used to have the wall chart on whereas some people just didn't wanna know what games was going on,

but in that team room was the wall chart there. And sometimes as a player, it's nice to see that journey that you know you're probably gonna embark on and try and like what Grace said, manifest that you're gonna get into a final or get out of the groups and stuff. But yeah, I think with Lucy,

I think if that's her routine, you just don't go anywhere to try and break up the routine as much as possible. Did you find players often had their thing that they would do? Like, did you learn that about each other at major tournaments? Yeah, definitely.

I had different ways of preparing for games in and around the hotel. Whether it was watching Love Island at night time, there would always be a group of us that would always do that and obviously the girls have been watching at this tournament as well so I think that's when you're away in tournament you've got to let people do what they need to do you're away for so long in each other's company and I think you've got to respect what people do to either switch off or maybe people don't switch off and they want to do stuff constantly whereas I'd probably like to just chill

and watch whatever's on TV and just kind of let my body rest and that's just having that kind of ability to know what people want. And that's definitely key in a tournament football. I don't know if you saw their basketball trick shots. Oh yeah, I did actually. That they did on the rest of it. Unbelievable, the level of skill.

I did ask Grace Clinton how long. I want to know how many takes I took though. She said first time, I said absolutely no. Yeah, give over. Yeah, yeah. But Nadine, lovely what she had to say about Lucy Bronze there. And I think we cannot underestimate,

we saw it after the France loss, how big a character she is. And a leveler in this team it feels as well. She won't let those players get too high or get too low and she was the one coming out after the loss saying, that's fine, this has happened before, there's still time, we can do this, we can turn this around. Yeah, 100% and it's the value of experience. I think at times like with youth you've got the exuberance, you've got the excitement, you've got the ability, the quality and all that, but essentially they only know what they know. So that feeling of losing in a tournament for them might feel like the absolute end of days but somebody that's been there before done played in so many tournaments been in the situation where

people are looking at you funny whereby there's maybe people unhappy in the dressing room people happy so on and so forth it's a reminder that says we've been through this before we'll get through this again this is how we're gonna do it and this is the why and I think when somebody is that sort of leader within a dressing room they can be vocal about it. But also you can watch the way that they do things. That's something I love during my career, is I prefer the managers on the sidelines

who look quite calm, because then if something's going wrong, you know that they're trying to find a solution. Whereas the ones who look like they were on fire, it's like, ah, I don't know if this is gonna help if I look at them, let me look away, let me look away. And you're like, I'm trying my best. I'm trying my best here, but they still look like everything's just going wrong, but like, I'm trying my best. I'm trying my best here, but they still look like everything's like just going wrong. But

yeah, I think I like that. And we saw Serena Vigman, Nadim, losing it in as much as she probably does in the France game, particularly after that Alessia Russo challenge was reviewed by VAR and the lead up to the second France goal and it, you know, they weren't brought back for it. Goal stood. She went up to the fourth official. I think quite a few people were quite shocked by that visible emotion yes I would class myself as being a few people to be honest I was definitely one of them like oh she's quite worked up here yeah what does that tell us then I think she I think there's something within most human beings who will get like that when they think

there's a sense of injustice. And there was a little bit in that sense. So if you want to talk about tactics or general things within games which could get better and so on and so forth, people can act in a certain way, but the moment there's a hint of injustice, all of a sudden this side comes out. Like me myself, when I was a captain as well, it was during the era where it was only the captain could speak to the players, to speak to the referee rather. And I always used to start off really calm.

And then as soon as the injustice kicked in, I may have looked like I wasn't calm anymore. So I want to apologize to our referees for that, but it's just the nature of the game. I don't think I've ever seen you angry actually. Pardon? I don't think I've ever seen you angry. You wouldn't think so would you?

No, no. Football. I wanted to ask you Steph about the attitude that Grace Clinton showed there in terms of, she said, we quite like proving people wrong when we got the win over the Netherlands. Quoting her, shut everyone up. What I find quite interesting about that is Serena Vigman,

whenever she speaks to the media, makes a big point of saying, I don't read anything. I don't look at what you guys are saying. We don't feel the pressure. The players sort of reiterate that, yet whenever they have a bad loss and they come back they always seem to bring this same mantra. So I wonder if they really are reading stuff? Do you think they're just aware of it? I think there's some sort of element of you're aware of what's going on when you're in this

tournament bubble and I think now in terms of social media there's so many different platforms but also sometimes your family let things slip in the sense of like they might have read an article or they might have heard something on a radio show or on TV in terms of comments about previous games and sometimes it just can't be helped even though you're probably thinking I don't really want to delve into what X person's saying and sometimes it's hard to get away from so I think there's your purpose you try and not read as much as possible but sometimes it might just come up on your phone if you're on Instagram and and you see certain comments and look I think these girls know in terms of that

performance against France wasn't at the level that we're probably expecting so it doesn't change the fact that you want to go and win the next game, you want to perform better, you want to get another three points, you want to score as many goals as you possibly can. It doesn't change the actual outcome of what you're trying to do, but I think it does put that little bit more pressure on and you're always kind of, as a sports person,

you're always trying to kind of fight to be the best as much as you can against different people that have an opinion of you. Yeah, I would agree. And in regards to that as well, it's the fact that in this day and age, a player or somebody in the public eye and so on, they don't need to go and seek what people think about them. It will be delivered to them. And you've mentioned the social media side of things, which is a big part of it. But then also, say if you've got to go and do a

press conference after that game, they're all going to be telling you exactly what they think. In the questions that you ask? Exactly, yeah. You're not looking for it. The girls are not stupid. You understand there's a feeling from England that people are not happy. Exactly, yeah. And you can try and stay in your bubble as much as you want, but the outside world is

still very much there. And as you say, for all the players and so on, pretty much all of them love football. So even on their social media feeds, there'll be things to do with football there and it's very hard then to start and take yourself away from that especially you know in the nature of a tournament when you've got so much downtime as well. And also with the amount of coverage that now are covering the games and this is a huge tournament if you compare that to 2011 World Cup like it was hardly anything you would never be able to see anything because

there wasn't them platforms there wasn't as many reporters that are over there in Switzerland that you see on a daily when you're maybe going out you're going for a coffee, whatever that might be, so it is hard to get away from but I think the most impressive thing is the mentality. I think I love the fact that wanting to try and prove people wrong and they did that Wednesday but we knew that that was a performance that we could do anyway. I wanted to talk a little bit more about Lauren James, got that brace against the Netherlands was stunning and in so many areas of her game she was moved out wide, we've already talked about that,

that slight shift from the France game. Nedim do you think she's the kind of player that does get ruffled, I don't know by outside noise But also like you say that awareness she would have had that that France was not her best game I don't think how well to be honest. I don't really know her as such But I wouldn't say that outside noise is something that affects her I think for how good she is at times. She's basically playing her own game is how I see it So I think things on the field probably would affect them more so than somebody saying something about her But it's not to say that She doesn't hear everything because I think there were

things which were said at the last World Cup after she got sent off I believe yeah but in terms of her as a professional and as is the case of most other people if you if you walk off the field and feel like you've not played to your best you always want to react you want to get out in the pitch again you want to be training well you want to make sure you're preparing well for the next game and you want to put forward a better version of yourself. I think for her, if she looked back at that first game and felt that was the case, well, she definitely addressed it in the second game.

Yeah. And I don't know how Serena Vigman works as such, but after that first game, maybe she was concerned she might not get another chance to play again. But from what it was given, it's a great opportunity in there. She comes off as a star, doesn't she? Yeah, I mean, I think we were all surprised that Lauren James started and I think in terms of what people have said about performance I don't think it was necessarily her individual performance but more the team. I think that's why we got everything right on Wednesday was that we all I think Georgia

Stanway did the interview after the game and she said if we all do our jobs on an individual basis then we can allow the likes of Lauren James, Alessia Russo, Lauren Hemm to go and do their things and I think that was what was probably wrong on that France game. Did we out of them 11 players play up to the standard that we probably expect to allow them players to go and thrive and Lauren James is the X factor for England. I personally do believe that. I think if she can play in that position and influence the game that she did against the Netherlands we have a better chance of winning but we have to have that set up to be able to do that and Lauren James has grew up in this world. If you take Lucy Bronze for example, the media pressure that she had when she first

made her England debut, there was none because it was hardly on TV, there was hardly anything more about her, whereas for Lauren James now that is an expectation that she knows is going to be noise so actually you've got a better way of dealing it from an individual point of view. What does make her so hard to play against Steph? And I'll just read you this quote. This is from Karen Basley, who's part of our commentary team during the Netherlands game. She said, if I was facing her goalkeeper, I would have broken my ankles from being turned inside out constantly. Is that KB playing outfield or in goal? from being turned inside out constantly. Is that KB playing outfield or he can go like that?

Well that's a little bit about it. Regardless of his KB, yeah. I need to clarify that. You know what, we were saying this on air on Wednesday, and I think LJ in the sense of she's both footed so she can go inside and outside, especially in that wing position, but her ability to drive with the ball at pace,

I think as a defender, us being defenders, it's so hard to defend because you actually don't know which way you want to show up because she's running so quick and also you know she can go both sides, but also I think her first goal kind of sums her up like she's driving across the box. She doesn't need any back lift to hit with her weaker foot. So that catches the defenders by surprise,

but also the goalkeeper and she creates chances like that Yeah, I would agree and I think as I watch her again The dribbling thing is a really good thing because you can dribble at great speed, but the ball's always close to her foot Yeah There are some players who have a tendency to where they need to kick it into space and try and sprint onto it But she's moving at speed like that and when it's like that, she can always change the direction Yeah And as you've said the fact that she's two-footed means that you as a player then if you're going up against her

You can't she doesn't revert back to tendency. She just plays the moment. And I think that's something that's changed in football over the last like probably five, ten years. There are some people who you try and defend against who wait for you to make a move. Whereas historically you wait for them and then you play into it. But she's just class. And she plays like with some of the other players at this tournament who for me feel

just that little bit better than some of the others At times it's like they're playing a different sport because you think about well who could stop them and at that point you think well It's not many is like Patrice for Spain Yes, I feel so she is that player of this tournament this moment time like she's got three goals four siss like she's she's having an impact On games and it even though they are probably against less opposition, you still have to go out there and do that and prove that quality. And there's that indefinable nonchalance, Vicky.

I always think with Lauren James, I just cannot describe it. I cannot get my head around the way it looks like she's not in the game and then suddenly she's scored two. It's effortless ease, isn't it? I mean, the way that she moves with the ball and also the way that she celebrates. I mean, that first girl... Minimal.

Minimal, minimal. Just so, you know, oh, yes, I've just popped it into the top corner again. Welcome to the Toonie and Russo show on BBC Sounds. I am here with two of football's most famous friends, Alessia Russo and Ella Toon. I know where I'd take you for your hen do. Well, Benidorm. Benidorm. Oh, yes.

I would like that. It's Keely Hodgkinson. Welcome to the police. How long's your training sessions like? What do you do? Just run around? Do you think we're best friends for life? Erm... Oh, my God. The Tune in Russo Show with me, Vic Hunt.

Listen on BBC Sounds. So Wales standing in the way of England's potential place in the quarter-finals. So let's hear from Lioness Ella Toon. She's been speaking ahead of the match tomorrow. It's a big rivalry anyway, England and Wales, and they're obviously going to want to stop us from getting out of the group, but yeah, the performance that we put on against Holland, if we take that into the Wales game, I think it would be really hard to deal with. We've got to make sure that we work hard, give 100 per cent and fight for each other like we did the other night because, yeah, we put in a big performance there, but if we don't

follow up against Wales, then there's no point. But we're definitely looking forward to it, we're in a bit of a groove at the minute and we're feeling really confident. When you play home nations do things like rankings just go out of the window? Yeah definitely. I think for us we just want to beat anyone who comes in our way. I think we always say to be the best you've got to beat the best so we've had a really tough group but we've got to get out of it and we're really excited. I think we're training really hard, we're really together away from the pitch as well which really helps when we step onto it and we should be proud of ourselves for the way we handled the pressure the other night and yeah take it into the Wales game. Plenty more from Ella Toon on the Toonie and Russo show which you can download on BBC Sounds.

Delighted to say joining us for the rest of the conversation former Wales defender Danny Gabbard on. Afternoon Danny, how are we? Well actually, well I just heard all that talk about Lauren James there and I'm getting a bit nervous but they're pretty good. And obviously a big game tomorrow now up against the old enemy England. Can you quantify Danny why the performance was better versus France over there opener against Netherlands? What made the difference for you?

I just think the team looked a little bit more freed up. I think you look at the first game, obviously Wales' first major tournament, there was a lot of nerves, a lot of emotion surrounding that and the team maybe got caught up in that a little bit too much. They didn't perform to the levels they expected and I just think into the France game it was almost like that was done now, the first game's out of the way now, let's really concentrate on improving our performance. I think Rian Wilkinson was really kind of bold with her approach as well. She changed the system. I haven't seen Will play too often under her. She made personnel changes as well. So you know I have to say kind of looking at the team sheet and the change of shape going into the game I was a little bit kind of worried. I wasn't quite sure how the game was gonna go but it

worked really well. Steph, Ella Toon talking about rankings going out of the window when it comes to games like this and look we can't try and dress this up. England far higher ranked than Wales making their tournament debut but I wonder from your perspective going back to playing home nations does it feel different? It does you know I think we played Scotland 2017-2019 tournament's first game of the tournament I think already the nerves are kicking in because it's the first game but even more so that you don't want to be getting beat by Scotland so I think the pressure is always on against the home nations

and in this game will not be different I think it's probably similar to that of what you're feeling maybe in Manchester Derby in terms of you just need that little bit of bragging rights going towards the end of the game. But look, I think looking at Wales' point of view, I think their first tournament, being able to score their first goal through Jess Fishlock and improve performance against France, I think for me this is about the legacy that they will leave in the sense of being in this tournament, being against the best teams in the world and the best teams in Europe, sorry. I think they'd give themselves a performance to be proud of against France, even though it wasn't the result that they want.

But I think this is something that they can take into the future in terms of these players are now getting experience of what tournament football is about. But look, I think when it comes to England v Wales or England v Scotland, whatever that might be, I think it was always the sense of you have to win this one no matter what. Interesting though, legacy-wise, Nadum, for Wales this. Yes, there were so many positives as Steph has outlined at first goal, potentially still the opportunity to get first points, but some heavy losses as well. And I wonder where does the conversation start turning from, yes, this is great. Look at where we've got to, to how do we become a threat next time?

Do you know that's a good question and a good thing to think about because from the football in standpoint I think there've been two debutants at this tournament in Poland and in Wales and I think Poland football wise have put forward a better made a better account for themselves because I think the Welsh side of things they've had the moments and like some moments of excitement after the Jess the Jess Fischlok goal which is a massive goal in the history of Welsh women's football but at times it's felt non-competitive but I think after the tournament's done they'll probably look back at those games and see how they competed and almost have this drive to

be there at the next tournament you know what I mean and the next time they come to not just try and like score a goal but can you compete against these better sides and from the position that they're in at the moment, then you can see from like a 1 to 11 basis, they're not really as competitive as maybe they'll hope to be in the future. Sort of same question to you, Danny, and I wonder if Manchester United keeper Safia Middle-Pattel, who was given her first major tournament cap against France, might be a really good example of what is to come for Wales?

Yeah I think so you know you look at obviously the age of like Sir Jess Fishlock, Sophie Engel, there's players that have been fantastic for Wales over so many years now but they're not going to be able to go on for forever so I think off the back of this tournament it is about looking to the next generation who's going to kind of step up and replace those players and Sophia Middleton-Patel who yes did make a mistake in that game against France but on the whole performed really really well you know for Rian Wilkinson to you know throw into the biggest of stages and it just shows kind of the confidence that the manager kind of has in her and she will learn kind of so much from that as will the rest of the squad so um so yeah it's it's not so much

about results. Of course the players, you know, they want to progress in this tournament and results are important, but being here kind of for the first time and off the back of this, what it's going to do in so many kind of different ways, not just for the players, but for the country as a whole. And obviously, you know, participation and financially all these kinds of things, you know, moving forward, I think, you know, if we can continue to qualify consistently then for these tournaments, then you'll see a different kind of level of kind of expectation on the team. So, so yeah, it's going to be

interesting to see what they actually do going into the England game kind of tactically. Will Sophia maybe play again? Will they play a similar kind of system? Will they revert back to type? So it's going to be a really intriguing game. Let's hear from inside the camp then. Here's Wales forward Hannah Kane. People talk about how difficult this group is and things like that but if I'm completely honest I don't think any of us would have it any other way. It's our first major tournament we're playing against the last two winners, the last semi-finalists and we've got to the last game in the groups

and technically we're still not out so people can write us off as much as they want but I'm so unbelievably proud to be Welsh and to be a part of this team and the journey that we've been on. There's so many people watching this game now that would never have happened even when I was growing up and to see how far we've come and for things like that we talk about inspiring the next generation and things like that but I think we're actually making an older generation proud so it's not just like the young ones it's massive and it's the whole of Wales it's every generation and to see the impact that we're having across the whole of the country is is just unbelievable it's it's so surreal honestly.

You say you're proud to be Welsh. It's Wales England. There's always a bit of an eagle, Wales England. Yeah obviously it's a rivalry. Arguably our biggest rivalry and one we're so excited for. I've not played in one yet so I can't wait. Obviously I know a couple of the girls and we play against these week in, week out for club as well. So it's not something unknown. It's all to play for and we could really upset the group and prove a lot of people wrong.

And I think we know that we're capable of getting a result and that's what we'll go for. Danny, you were listening into that, that it sounds positive and confident as we've heard all the way through, but could it be a bit of a reality check for them tomorrow against England? Quite possibly, it could, but the team will be thinking that way, as I said, off the back of the France performance, there were so many positives in that, they'll be in a good place going into this game. You know, I've played in a few of these kind of home

nations games myself as a player and it does give you that kind of added fire in the belly, that added motivation to go out and play better and Wales will know obviously they can possibly spoil the English party with a good performance and a result. So, you know, there'll be huge motivation from the Welsh side of things and, you know, there'll be huge motivation from the Welsh side of things and, you know, important from England's side to be aware of that and to, you know, they're gonna have to grow and match the intensity and the determination of Wales.

And of course, then you expect the quality that England have to probably get them through. But yeah, we'll be trying to make it as difficult as possible for England, that's for sure. I can always hear the smile on his voice, Steph there, trying to spoil the party. I'm hoping, I'm hoping. Steph, before we let you go, I just wonder, this may be the key question from an England perspective, will we see any changes from Serena Wiegman, do you think?

We were talking about it before. I personally don't think they will. I think in terms of momentum that we're speaking about, I think it's important that the girls are kind of getting that rhythm ahead of potentially a quarterfinal against Sweden or Germany if they beat Wales tomorrow. So I think Nedim thinks different though. I do think differently and notoriously wrong. So I'll just err on both sides of things. Yeah, you're always right. In these conversations, you're always right. So there'll be no changes tomorrow going to Steph. Yeah, I was going to say I can be the deal breaker but yes I agree. Yeah I just think you look at what Vigmin did three years ago at the Euros if she's found this might see it later in the tournament but for tomorrow no. Many thanks then to Vicky Sparks, Steph Horton, Nadim Anoua and

Dani Gabadon. Let's finish then with the thoughts from both camps a day before the match gets underway starting with Wales captain Angharad James. This journey has been an incredible journey for us and the second game was massive improvement from the group and the third game England not much more needs to be said about it I think you know we're performing the way that we have against France and we'll prepare the exact same way and yeah it's just pure excitement from us. We wanna play against the best nations and to have, we've played two already.

We're improving game on game and hopefully we can bring our best performance. We are celebrating the small wins because being here at this tournament for the first time, putting Wales on the biggest stage is a win for us. And before we even kicked a football in this tournament we spoke as a group and we said we've already won regardless of what happens. We're inspiring the next generation and that's something that's really

passionate within our group. It's not going to be easy but we know that if we can get one goal the first goal who knows what will happen it's football. You've seen crazier things happen in football and Wales against England. What better game? You know you're going to get absolutely everything from all of us, from all the leaven that start, from the subs, from the bench, from the crowds. Tomorrow we'll have them singing the anthem with us and you know that's one nil, that's two nil and hopefully we can find a few more. So that's Angharad James, now let's get the England perspective with manager Serena Vigman. We have to win this game and then we get out of the group stage, so what else do you need

to be motivated I would say and we showed ourselves how good we can play and now again it's against another opponent, there's a lot of rivalry, they'll be probably more compact and maybe drop a little deeper but I also have seen that they play a little bit higher so we have to find a way to break that wall I would say and to create chances again and also be really really concentrated and focused on their attack and or maybe their counter-attack. And that red wall as well for them, they're fans, they're going to be so loud. Just wondering as well as a manager, you know when you go into a game where your side are the clear favourites on paper against a side

that are the clear underdogs, how do you mentally prepare for that and approach that? That's a mindset thing too, so what we talk about is what's our task, what's every player's task and you do your task with the most intensity as you can and then of course you want to play through your strengths and put players in their strengths and stick together. And then when you work really hard together, I think then we have so much quality that we can win this game. So both England and Wales think they can win. Remember, live commentary to come on Five Live and BBC Sounds on Sunday night. That is it though for this episode of the Football

Daily. On the next one, we'll have all the reaction to that home nations clash. experience winning with England. That Welsh passion, we never know when we're beaten. Hello, I'm Maisie Adam. And I am Suzie Ruffall. And together we host the women's football podcast, Big Kick Energy. The award winning. Oh yes, award winning. Yes, very much so. And join Lionesses, Ella Toon and Alessia Russo

in the Toonie and Russo podcast. I know where I'll take you for your hen do, Benidorm. Oh yes. I would like that. Take the Euros with you this summer. Search women's Euros on the BBC Sounds app.