Football Daily - Women's Football Weekly: Managerial mayhem and no more WSL relegation?

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Ellen White, Jen Beattie and Ben Haines examine whether the WSL could remove relegation as a way of expanding the division. They're joined by BBC Sport's Emma Sanders to explain the proposals that are under consideration. They also look at two days of managerial departures in the WSL, with Liverpool and Crystal Palace both changing their head coaches.TIMECODES00:14 Ellen White and her legacy cap 04:10 A dramatic return for the WSL 11:25 What next for Liverpool after Matt Beard's departure 18:28 Crystal Palace replace Laura Kaminski 23:15 Relegation and expansion in the WSL

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. On the Football Daily, the Women's Football Weekly with Ben Haynes, Ellen White and Jen Beattie. Hello everyone. Now the Women's Football Weekly has been going for just over a year, not quite long enough for testimonials or probably not long enough for us to kick off with the whole legacy caps thing. Although maybe we should start giving them out for guests as they come on. But if you are the lioness's record goalscorer, Ellen White, you do get your own legacy cap at Wembley at pitch side in a repeat of the

World Cup final going on behind you. How was that experience? Yeah, I just waited for the best, biggest game possible at Wembley. Did you put pause in it? Yeah, I might as well. That'll do. World Cup final repeat. That one sounds good. Was it good fun? Yeah it was good. It was good. It was nice to be there and see some old football friends. So yeah it was cool and obviously Lioness's win. So decent. Yeah beautiful stuff and a big welcome to former Arsenal Scotland International who did okay on the

catch front as well. A smooth 1-4-4 for Jen Beatty for Scotland. Jen, am I right in saying that you've been put on the sort of Hall of Fame for Scotland? The equivalent of? Oh, mate. I read something this morning. I read something to that effect this morning. Maybe they haven't told you. Yeah, maybe. No, I think it's something really cool that the Lionesses do and I think it's relatively new as well, though, as well. It's like, right,

like bringing former players back to Wembley and I'm not saying that's what's going on. I'm not fishing for that's what Scotland should do. Just an idea. It's a really, really nice gesture and like to go back to Wembley and get that in front of our home crowd is really sweet. But yeah, no, there's no such thing as that with Scotland. Maybe petition to start it Ben. Yeah, I'll start it so that you don't have to be the kind of like front face of it so you can be really humble about it and then we'll be banging the drum for you.

What was the last sort of game like? We spoke about the first game in the international break for both sides and then we'll be banging the drum for you. What was the last sort of game like? Because we spoke about the first game in the international break for both sides and then how did England get on against Spain in your view? Yeah, I think a much improved performance, obviously no disrespect to Portugal, but it's another step up in terms of opposition, obviously reigning world champions. And yeah, I think England definitely watched back that Portugal game. I think they they've done really well in this in the sense of being comfortable with being uncomfortable and yeah I thought it was a

really kind of quite a gritty like team performance. I don't get too ahead of myself obviously it's a great win and I think it gives the team a lot of confidence and I think it gives Serena some excitement as well because obviously we still got hopefully quite a few players to come back so yeah I think a good three points and hopefully puts them in a good position come the beginning of April when they face Belgium. Jen on the Scotland front considering there was that defeat against Austria which wasn't ideal, defeatfeat again against the Netherlands, but a really brilliant moment for Emma Lawton.

Yeah, and only her second start to get a goal against a really top side. I think it kind of, it's a good narrative for the camp, right? Giving youth a chance to go on and start and get minutes and experience. And that's obviously what I think the narrative was for that whole camp. But I thought it was a great finish and to open the scoring against Netherlands is a really, really big moment. So it's credit to Emma for taking her chance and getting on the, not just the team sheet, but the score sheet as well. A really hard thing to do in international football.

So it wasn't the best result again, but I think it was a camp of really, really big learnings for Scotland and giving young players experience that they need so I think they definitely move forward in the Netherlands game for sure. And it does mean international duty parked for both sides now for exactly a month, the 4th of April until we see England and Scotland in action again, England with a double header against Belgium and then Scotland with a double header against Germany, how massive are those games going to be for both sides? But fresh off the back of that international break we've got some amazing WSL narratives. Arsenal coming from 3-1 down to beat West Ham 4-3.

Chelsea dropping points again and I say again it's only the second time this season. Another win for Man United to close the gap then at the top of the table to just five points. Jen, I would love to get your take on whether Meadow Park played any part in that comeback for Arsenal. It sounded amazing. Oh, I feel like, yeah, the opening, I mean, fans would have been a little bit worried, I think, at the start, but I actually loved Lee Williamson's comments after being like, I never thought we were gonna lose, we were always gonna win it, no matter the score line. I feel like I love that mentality.

But no, to see it go 3-1 just after half time, I thought Chloe Kelly did really well to get her first goal or an under second stint right before the break. And that was when I was like, okay, perfect timing, get a goal back in it. But it was the one to make it 3-1. And I honestly thought Martinez was unbelievable by the way. What a goal that was to kind of receive it, chop and great

finish. I thought she was brilliant the whole game. But no, meadow park atmosphere would have been 100% rallied around the team and to see three goals in such quick succession as well is absolutely nuts. I would have loved to have been there, but it was just exciting watching it. But what a turnaround. You haven't seen as quick a turnaround in that in football in a long, long time. It was a crazy game, but one that they would have been absolutely buzzing

to get back to 4-3. It almost feels like it's blasphemous to say this, Ellen, but having the crowd that much closer and creating that intimate environment where you can literally hear every single shout I wonder on a day like Sunday afternoon whether that was exactly what was needed at 3-1 down 100% you know I feel like, well we've spoken about it so many times they've created such an amazing kind of community and fan base. You can hear them rocking at Emirates but to hear it at Meadow Park, it is such an exciting fan base and that atmosphere and that definitely would have gave another 10-20 percent. And as soon as kind of

the goals started going in, it was like three goals in six minutes wasn't it? It was just mental. So I actually, I feel gutted for West Ham, for being honest, because they actually did nothing wrong really, obviously, yes, they conceded four goals ultimately. But I do really feel for them because they put in a huge performance and I think they'll be absolutely gutted to have gone away with nothing as well. Like even a draw for them would have been pretty impressive, but fair play to Arsenal. On the Chelsea front, I mean, they had, they'd gone into that gear, hadn't they, Jen? They sort of got to that point where it was starting to click for them and

they were just turning the screw a little bit. It almost felt a bit inevitable. Yeah. Well, I was watching it thinking, you know, the opening 15, 20 minutes Brighton look great. I thought they were, they're the ones threatening it thinking, you know, the opening 15, 20 minutes, Brighton look great. I thought they were, they're the ones threatening the goal, playing great given goals in the wide areas, Frank Kirby being a big part of that. But then it was like, as I was watching it and you see that Baltimore volley and you're

thinking, this is a typical top tier team that against the run of play, they've got that bit of quality that can just get them in the game and settle and get that, you know, get ahead in the game, get the goal against the run of play. And that's the quality that they have. And I thought, right, this is going to be another day at the office. They're going to settle into scoring more goals, you know, be the team that we've been watching all season. But it was a little bit sticky. Like what Ellen is saying, coming off the back of international, I genuinely think that's a team that if you're Brighton and you're playing against a team that has had everyone away in international,

but you go for it. And that's exactly what Brighton did. And I thought they were honestly really unlucky. Thought Frank Kirby was through on goal and I thought she was gonna get it. Obviously Millie Bright made it all the way back. But even Lasada's finished, lovely given goal from Rachel McLaughlin in the

wide area, I thought they'd played some really good stuff and I thought they were unlucky but look of course if you're playing against Chelsea they're gonna throw absolutely everything at you until the final whistle blows and I do think though if you're Chelsea okay you've dropped two points you've not lost you're still 15 games unbeaten. You know, you're still gaining momentum. It's not a loss. It's not the work. Brighton, we've talked a lot about them all season,

about, okay, it might have been off a bad run, but they have been impressive, and I thought they were at the weekend. And Chelsea threw everything at them. Lauren James had a brilliant opportunity in the final few moments to get the win, and I thought she was gonna get it genuinely. I thought when she's on the ball in the box, you're thinking that's in the back of the net, but couldn't quite get it. But I don't think it's, it's two points

dropped but I don't think it's the end of the world for Chelsea. Although big couple of weeks coming up. So we know that there's a huge amount of games to come for Chelsea of significance. They've got to play Man City in the League Cup final. They've got to play Man City in the League Cup final. They've got to play two legs against Man City in the Champions League and then they'll also face Man City in the WSL. On top of that, Man United got another win at the weekend and bridged the gap to just five points. They'll also face Chelsea on matchday 20 of 22. So right towards the back end of the season, Man United will have an opportunity there. Do you think, Jen, maybe they've gone a little bit under the radar just to one defeat this season?

Massively. I don't think we've spoken about them enough. To have one defeat all season, that's an unbelievable place to be in and to be pushing Chelsea at this point. And I honestly think they won't be seeing it in the media, but they will be looking at that game to close the gap. You're always going to look at, right, keep climbing, keep climbing, but your top table clashes, they're the ones you're going to be like, right, if we're going to get them it's going to be on those games because you can't presume that Chelsea are going to drop points anywhere else. Okay, they did it against Brighton but could it be a one-off? You never know. 100% they'll have one eye on that game thinking this is maybe an opportunity to close

the gap and really push if we're going to do it. But Man United for sure have been underrated all season and we probably haven't spoken about it enough that they're, you know, tell us Joyce how big a role she's played and the amount of clean sheets they've had. And you know, she's really stepped into those shoes having Mary Earp's leave it to PSG. And for sure, they're at where they're at for a reason and it's credit to them for doing that. They've had the results and they've got the points

and they're in a position where we're potentially not talking about Arsenal closing a gap or Man City, we're talking about Manchester United and I think that speak volumes. I think one thing I will say about Man United, for them to be, sustain themselves in that top four consistently, they have to get results against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City. I think history with them, they just haven't picked up enough points against the top four, so for them to continue

being second or even push the title champions league spots. I think this game coming up against Chelsea is huge for them to pick up points and really kind of cement their position in that big top four. And what are their last three games of the season? Chelsea City Arsenal season defining for Man United right at the crescendo of the season. If we just scale back a little bit, we'll go before the weekend because before the WSL had even got back into action we saw a pretty incredible 36 hours. Liverpool sacking Matt Beard on Thursday, Amber Whiteley's taking temporary charge there and then Laura Kaminski leaving

Bottom Club Crystal Palace the next day. She's been replaced by Norwegian Leif Gunnar Smerud who is a really interesting appointment and we should also mention Championship side Southampton sect Remy Allen after less than a year in charge on Friday too. So three managers gone within the top two tiers in the space of 36 hours and we can start with Matt Beard because this was a really interesting one. I found this fascinating, Jen, in terms of the way that it played out. Because sometimes when you see a manager get sacked, you see that results haven't gone well, and it feels like the club has reached the end of a line and a club will come out and say, we'd like to play some record.

Thank you very much. Blah, blah, blah. And you don't really hear much from the manager. This one felt like from the outside that maybe it was almost a mutual thing, looking at it with the way that Matt Beard came out and also had a response and a statement too. Potentially. But then I think you never really, this is a weird thing about the media. You never really know the ins and outs of why someone is either sacked or leave. And I think that, you know, we spoke about this when Jonas Eideveld left Arsenal. It's like the language used in media announcements I think is quite telling whether they use the word sacked or the parts mutually with the club. There's so many different ins and outs of why a manager would leave. But

I think maybe you are right. Maybe it was more mutual than we think. But I think what the hardest thing for Liverpool, I think was finishing fourth last season. You know, they did so well last season. I think defensively, they've come into this year thinking, right, we can go one step further, try to play a bit more and it's kind of backfired. And they've really had some really poor results.

And I think that's what's maybe given the club a bit of alarm bells moving forward that, you know, we had this really good season last year finished fourth. How do we push on? And that's not what they're wanting. And maybe Matt Beard doesn't feel like he's the person to do that. So it has been a little bit more mutual than we think. But I think the language used in statements is always really telling.

And I think, you know, maybe it is a little more mutual than we think but ultimately results have been really poor. The way that they've tried to play this season, they've had some really good spells of doing that but ultimately haven't picked up the performances or the results on the whole to get them higher up in the table. People will probably talk about his title wins with Liverpool before which come more than 10 years ago now. I wonder Ellen, whether that is almost an unfair comparison given how much the games changed? Yeah, it's a tough one because, you know, he, he achieved a lot with Liverpool. And

I think, you know, I'm sure they are really kind of thankful and grateful for what he did achieve obviously, and the championship as well. But I think it's such a difficult one, the WSL. And I feel I agree with what Jen's saying in the sense that it was worse for them finishing fourth for them this season and you've got to look at, you know, are they getting the investment behind them? Obviously they brought in Olivia Smith. Has he got the players that he wants? I don't know. I always feel like with Matt Beard, I don't know in interviews, I feel like he always seemed like, not sad, but I don't know, he just, he always felt

not negative, but yeah, it just always, obviously his results didn't really help either, to be honest, but it just seemed like a challenging kind of year for him in the sense of the club and the results they were getting. And I don't know, for me I don't think it was a huge shock just with the position and just obviously four wins isn't great for them as a club. They've said before they want to be up there challenging for the Champions League and even Cups and they just haven't achieved that and I think it is disappointing obviously for the club and for Matt Beard as well with what he has done in the game. So it is a shame and hopefully they can put in some big performances come the end of the season.

Have they got a squad to do that? Have they got a squad to challenge for the Champions League places, Jen? Champions League places, no. That's going back to Ellen's point where you're talking about investment and I think that's probably a frustration where Matt Beard is. That's going back to Ellen's point where you're talking about investment and I think that's probably a frustration where Matt Beard is, that's another reason why he has maybe thought the exact same thing Ellen's saying. He doesn't necessarily have the squad to compete for Champions League spots. I think mid-table is you have to be realistic with the players you're bringing in and what you're trying to achieve. Look, they have made signings but do I think they're Champions League level signings? No. To answer your question really bluntly, no.

And it feels as though when you look at that next group in in the table when you look at that that next bracket it does feel like it's a big ask at the moment from fourth down to fifth so Man City in fourth to Brighton in fifth, you're looking at 12 points. It feels like a bit of a chasm right now, but I wonder, Ellen, whether a change in manager is what Liverpool needs to make that jump. Potentially something to freshen up. They're in the quarter-final of the FA Cup as well, remember, you know, this weekend

coming up against Arsenal. So that's a big game for them to potentially get through to a semi-final, which would be incredible for the team and for the fans and for the club as well. It is a huge gap. I'm not sure if they're gonna be able to kind of make that leap now. I think more than anything, it might just be freshening it up. But she was Matt Beard's assistant. So maybe it'll have the same effect as Renny Slagers did when Jonas left, I don't know. Maybe a slightly different voice, maybe she's

wanting to implement something slightly different and she's able to. She said she wants to put her name in the hat as well so you know it might just be something to freshen it up and maybe just to regroup at the end of the season but I think they've got to put everything into the game this weekend to try and get into the semi-final and give them some momentum and confidence and then maybe they regroup at the end of the season but yeah it seems like they've been it's quite a challenging one for them because I feel like we all had quite big expectations based on last season. the the

the the the the the the the the into the latest from the Football League and beyond. We're punching well above our weight already. We're a part-time team and a full-time league. Hopefully we can stay in the league and that ASDA.

We're in a great position at the moment and long may that continue. That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Women's Football Weekly with Ben Haynes, Ellen White and Jen Beatty. We roll on, roll on another day, look at another manager that's lost their job before the weekend, Laura Kaminsky with Crystal Palace and I think similar kind of narrative there, Jen, in that we had spoken quite a bit early on about how strategically Crystal Palace had looked really, really good in the face of a tough challenge coming up and having to try and even bridge that gap to establish WSL sides that are in the bottom third of the table, for example.

Yeah, and I think going back to even the start of the season with Crystal Palace, I think, you know, we gave them so much credit because it felt like they were really trying to come into this league and play and that was their style of football, on the ball, building up from the back. But I'll never forget watching one of the opening games against Chelsea and I'm thinking, you can't do that for 90 minutes against Chelsea and not expect to give the ball away and create chances against yourselves. And I thought that that was a big lesson moving forward, but I think they have tried to adapt in certain stages, but it just goes to show that the way you play in second tier football moving up to top has to change,

has to adapt in order to pick up points. You're playing against much better teams week in, week out. And I think that's where Kaminsky just maybe didn't adapt early enough in order to get results and get points. But we gave them credit at the start of the season for playing that style of football. And as a centre back watching a team build out, I love it. But if you're trying to funnel chances against yourselves and not picking up points, you have to change and you have to adapt, especially against Chelsea and any top team. But I think ultimately it was, it kind of felt it was always on the radar for Crystal Palace, you know, coming off when someone's replaced so quickly

as well. I feel like that was a plan that was kind of behind the scenes happening for a while now and coming off the back of an international break, you're obviously, big decisions are being made behind the scenes. So to see Samir come in pretty quickly, I think that hopefully is going to be a quick transition because not many games left, can you stay up? It's a pretty quickly, I think that hopefully is going to be a quick transition because not many games left, can you stay up? It's a big role but I think he's got so much experience and obviously we'll talk about him a little bit more but I thought it was a really good appointment from Crystal Palace to really move the club further forward because it's clear that they want to stay in the league and they want to obviously not get relegated.

A bit of a roll of the dice here, Ellen? I don't know if it's a roll of the dice. I feel for Laura Kaminsky, I really do, because I feel like she's done a lot for that club. She's brought them into the WSL and maybe she's taken them as far as they could go at the moment, obviously. I think it speaks a lot with Steve Parris coming out and saying, you know, giving his statement and obviously they are fully being supported by Crystal Palace, obviously. it speaks a lot with Steve Parris coming out and saying, you know, given his statement and obviously they are fully being supported by Crystal Palace obviously so I think that's important but I think it is an exciting

appointment. I don't know yet, I don't know 100%, you know, we'll see for this game coming up but I think it seems like he's had a lot of experience both in men's and women's football which is important and I think that seems like he's had a lot of experience both in men's and women's football, which is important. And I think that, you know, something different, something fresh, maybe he can put his ideas across very quickly for the team. They've got huge games coming up and I'm excited for them in the sense that if they were to get a few wins, they could be out this relegation. It could be right in the mix and a huge game coming up for them at the weekend as they

take on Aston Village. I want to bring in M. Sanders now who is our Senior Women's Football News Reporter. Just give us your take on this one. Why do you think Palace have chosen now to part ways with Laura Kaminsky? Well I think first of all, hi everyone, nice to speak to you all. I think given it was the international break, it is always a good time, I think, when you're looking to make a change. As Jen said before, clearly they want to stay in the league and they feel like they've got just about enough time now. Obviously Aston Villa's different form, maybe they're looking at the table and thinking we're actually not too far away. I think it's only four points off of safety. So it's absolutely doable. So

international break is always a good time to kind of get your ducks in order and make those changes, have those tough conversations. Obviously a lot of the players are kind of out the building as well. So you've got a little bit more space, I suppose, to get to work in the background. So you've got a little bit more space, I suppose, to get to work in the background. So, yeah, I just think the timing seemed to fit for them. I personally was really shocked by the decision. I did feel like it was quite premature, but only hindsight will tell us at the end of the season whether or not the risk has paid off. But I mean, you'd like to think that they've been bold and they've gone early

because they believe that the person that they're bringing in will keep them in the league. So yeah, I think that's why they've done it now. And I said, I was surprised, but fingers crossed it pays off for them. Yeah. And fascinating timing in that we're talking about Crystal Palace trying to stave off relegation when there's lots of talk at the moment around whether clubs will even need to be worrying about relegation in the near future. There's a proposal to remove relegation in the WSL as part of a plan to expand the division to 16 teams. And it's provoked a lot of discussion around the game. Here's Spurs boss Robert Villaham last week when the reports first emerged.

If I start by actually bringing more teams to this league, I'm a big fan of that. I think 12 teams is too few. Obviously it need to be fixed with also that the clubs do the investment to make sure they can compete and so that the league doesn't become too bad. But I'm a very big fan to add more teams to the league as long as the clubs actually invest in those teams and actually make sure that they show

that they wanna invest in women's football. Removing the relegation, which I thought it was on that article is is I definitely want to have a relegation bottle because I think you need the competition up in the table and down in the table. If it's for one year or two years to make sure we can have a big investment in those teams, show me the case and what they think about it and we can listen. But I'm a big fan of the relegation bottle as well. I think the fans want to see these games where you compete up and down in the leagues. I'm a big fan for more teams

and I'm a big fan of having a competition for the relegation. Robert Villaham there, and I imagine over the next couple of weeks, we'll hear from more and more coaches on their take on this one. But Em, can you just run us through at the moment what we know about what's being proposed? Yeah, so essentially, you know,

relegation being scrapped is one of the proposals that the company that oversee the WSL have essentially told shareholders in their most recent meetings. So this took place last Friday and it happens every sort of three to four months of the year. So the next one will be at the end of the season, probably likely to be the end of May, maybe the start of June. So in these meetings, they've obviously made these proposals, and this is one of them, is to get rid of the relegation for a short period of time to essentially expand the WSL as well as the Women's Championship eventually. So the details on how that structure would look, we still don't know. So that includes timeframes, the number of years. That would

only come into play if clubs then vote to obviously put this proposal through in that next meeting that, like I said, will come at the end of the season. If they vote for that to happen, then they will move on to the next stage, which would be to essentially define how that would look. When would they bring it in, how long would it be for, and that sort of thing. So still lots to be decided, but it's definitely a proposal that a lot of people are taking seriously. And I've spoken to sources at numerous clubs across the last 24 hours, and it sounds like there's still a bit of a split. However, there are a lot of clubs that are starting to be in favour of it. So I'm really interested to see what happens.

Oh, that's really interesting, Em. Take us further into that. Because probably foolishly, my assumption would have been that there would have been a lot of, we would have heard a lot of head coaches come out with a similar type of narrative, but it's not the case so far from what you're hearing. Yeah, well, I've actually been told that several clubs in the bottom half of the WSL are in favor of the idea. Now, this obviously isn't just because of sporting merits. Naturally, if you're in the bottom half and there's a risk of relegation, then people

will put two and two together. But a lot of what they say is around providing that stability. If clubs know that they're going to be in the WSL for the next four years, then clubs and owners, it perhaps gives them more incentive to invest in the W cell for the next four years, then clubs and owners, it perhaps gives them more incentive to invest in long-term projects, so things like girls' academies, elite facilities, raising minimum player salaries, offering longer-term contracts, which in itself obviously provides that longevity and stability for players. There's also more opportunities, they think, to get commercial partnerships,

because if you're a brand looking to sponsor a club and you know that they're going to be in the W cell, you know they're going to be in those broadcast slots and they're obviously going to be attracting higher media coverage, then naturally you will be more inclined to invest. So that's the argument for, and there's even clubs higher up the table, you know, the likes of Brighton and Liverpool, for example, who if they get knocked out of the cup competitions early, they can quite easily go four weeks without a game. I think Brighton have got four weeks between, I think it's the 30th of March and around about the 22nd of April this season where they don't have a game.

So for those types of clubs, they see obviously the idea of expanding, whether that includes the relegation scrapping. I don't think they're that bothered, but just expanding the league full stop means they will get more matches and therefore, you know, there's a bit more competition. So there's a lot of arguments for and obviously one of the biggest ones against is that it is essentially just against the fundamentals of English football. We've always known relegation and promotion is such a big part of English football. So there's a worry that it's becoming more Americanized. Are we opening the door to things like a draft system to, you know,

potentially close leads in the future, salary caps, all those sorts of things. And I think that's what concerns a lot of people. What do you reckon, Jen? I think if it's a short termterm thing, I totally get it. I personally would be absolutely gutted if relegation wasn't a thing. I think it's such a, exactly what Emma's saying, it allows competition at the bottom end of the table.

It's an exciting, towards the end of crunch time in football, you've got teams chasing the season and teams trying to fight to stay up. And I think it, over in NWSL, I've seen the contrary where, you know, there is no relegation and of course, investors is buying into the league. That's what owners do. And they have that commitment towards clubs

and it's that longevity and Emma's spot on. It allows commercialization to be a little bit easier. You can get longer contracts, stability for players, completely get the business idea of that from where the WSL wants to go. I agree with it in a sense as long as there's an agreement that it's maybe two, three years max. I think that's where it has to come back in to allow that competition at both ends. Over in the NWSL I think it creates that sort of competitiveness for sure. Every team genuinely goes into a game thinking they can win it because there's no repercussion if they lose there's no

relegation which I think causes competitiveness but also a little bit of chaoticness because there's no repercussion whereas in the WSL it's much more tactical in that sense you've got teams at bottom end of the table having to be more tactical when they play a top team in order to stay up but I do think English football fans will be gutted to see relegation zone because I think it brings so much excitement to the league come the end of the season. I'm interested to know how it all works in the sense of the championship and how you're bringing teams up. How many are coming up into the WSL?

How many are then coming up from below the championship into the championship? What's the incentive? They say they want to expand it to 16 teams over, I don't know, three or four years. So we only bring it up one team then. I just feel like there's no incentive for then investment to be able to then get into the WSL and championship. I think there needs to be more chance, so whether you have two come up in a playoff system, you know what they do in the Bundesliga in Germany where you have maybe the third bottom play the third place say in the championship, or you have kind of a playoff system in the championship where

you have from two to six, they're potentially fighting off to potentially get into the WSL. I think there needs to be more incentive in that sense as well. And it allows them more teams to gain investment and to gain a bit more stability and for investors to be like, oh, they have a huge chance to be able to be in one of the biggest leagues in the country as well. I'm not a hundred percent sure about the whole relegation thing. Obviously no one wants to ever see a team get relegated, people potentially losing their jobs,

wages being scrapped and more money being taken away from teams. That's not what anyone wants to see, but essentially it gives more jeopardy. And I do get the sense of sponsorship, investment, wanting to be able to have a stable league, more competitiveness potentially over a number of years.

Is there so many questions? I just, I can't get my head around everything. There's just so many questions that I just love to know really. Has there been any sense, Emma, of where teams within the championship are on this? Well, I think certainly lower down the pyramid, I get the feeling from what people have said that there would be a lot of frustration because as Ellen rightly says, you know, you look at the likes of sort of Burnley and Wolves, for example, in that National League, they've been pumping money in with a, you know,

a sort of a five year project as such to get into the WSL. And now they're not going to be able to do that because they're essentially just allowing one championship team to come in. So it's really difficult for those clubs then to move from two leagues to get into that WSL. It makes it really difficult. I think a lot of people were hoping that the expansion would be, as Ellen alluded to, you know, alluded to is to essentially have two championship teams come up and maybe one relegation spot in the WSL. So you're still getting expansion, but you're allowing clubs lower down the pyramid to

get into the WSL because there's more opportunities, there's more competition in that championship league for obviously two promotion spots as opposed to just one. Like what we have seen in recent seasons is the likes of Liverpool, Leicester, for example, Aston Villa, who were Premier League-owned clubs at the time, had the backing of their men's teams, could pump a bit of money in and then earn that promotion to the WSL. We've not seen many teams, particularly ones that are sort of independently owned, that have come up from the championship recently. Obviously, London City Lionesses are the ones that everyone are looking at at the moment

that are backed by the US investor, Michelle Kang. They've obviously been throwing money in to try and get into the WSL, but they would be one of the first really that isn't a kind of, you know, essentially a men's funded team breaking through from that second tier. So I think in summary, people were hoping that there would be more promotion spots available. So definitely lower down the pyramid. I think there is some frustration at the idea. And thanks so much for joining us. BBC Sport Women's football news reporter, M. Sanders there and I just want to pick up on a point that she just made, which I think kind of jumps

into another conversation, Jen, that we were having a couple of weeks ago. If you were to remove the idea of that jeopardy around relegation, at the moment in the league, we've got sides from fifth place down to tenth that are separated by seven points. I wonder how many of those clubs would be keen to speculate financially on trying to bridge the gap to the top three or top four if that jeopardy was removed. I do think if teams have safety, I would hope that it would make it more competitive in a sense of who's investing the most, who's going to put their hands in the pocket because they can move forward. And that hesitancy is always going to be from owners that why would I throw a bunch of money in when we could get relegated next year and it's a huge loss.

With that safety, think, no I think you're right, I think we would see teams move forward in that sense and I think Emma made a great point that the market value would jump up. You have safety, you have player safety with contract, you can invest in that way, be able to get commercial deals, knowing you're going to be in the top flight football for longer term, that's gonna bring in more money in that sense. Reinvest back into the club. There's so many more opportunities. So from a business perspective, I do totally get it. And I would love to see teams move in that direction rather than that coasting that I think a few people have spoken about where

they just kind of sit tight, play it safe, knowing they're going to be in a visibility standpoint in the top flight in WSL football but not quite reinvesting. I think that's quite, I actually don't think we'll see that personally, that's my opinion. I think we would see teams move forward and investing more given the safety because that's ultimately what clubs want. If we are expanding both the championship and WSL it then promotes hopefully more ability for champion for English players or Academy players to gain experience playing Women's football and playing in both the championship or even lower down it gives them more opportunity There's more teams available for them to to gain more development more minutes

Rather than, you know, I don't know if they're still talking about it, where they're going to set up like B teams, whereas I feel like expanding both the WSL and the championship, it just gives more opportunity for English players to be able to play football and hopefully we're able to retain more players then. And I think, you know, there's so many loan systems going on, isn't there? But I feel like they'll be able to get more minutes and more time on the pitch, which will be great, obviously, for our international stage as well. It's going to be a fascinating one to see over the course of the next few months, which side clubs fall down on, which way the voting goes and how the leagues or the leagues move forward.

Just before we finish up, I do just want to touch on a goal that will be no doubt all over everyone's timeline who's listening to this on Tuesday or Wednesday. Lisbeth O'Vall with an early contender for the Push Gas Award this year. I don't even know how to describe this, Ellen. Can you try and sort of put it into words? Firstly, Jenny Hemosa does a beautiful assist from the right-hand side into the box, and it's like a flying scorpion back heel kick in the air.

You need to watch it, because it's unreal. And then it goes loops up and over the goalie into the back of the net it's it's outrageous it's it's unbelievable I don't know how she's done it yeah Club Tigger is a feminine player just I don't even know how to describe the movement from Lizbeth O'Vallgen how would you how would you list that one? Well you made a good point off air I don't know if I can say it was similar to the Giroud move, right? Yeah.

Where it's completely, almost acrobatic. I need to see a close-up of it. Both legs in the air on this one, though. It's unbelievable. That is one of the best goals I've ever seen in women's football. Stunning stuff. Thank you so much, Jen. Thanks so much, Ellen. The next football daily sees Kelly Cates bring a new reaction to the men's Champions League, both Aston Villa and Arsenal in action, so make sure you join her for that. My self, Ellen and Jen, will be back next week. We'll catch you then.

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