Football Daily - World Cup Draw Reaction as England draw Croatia & Scotland face Brazil

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Kelly Cates and a range of guests react to the World Cup draw!Dion Dublin, Ian Dennis & Don Hutchinson reflect on England drawing Croatia, Ghana & Panama, before we hear from manager Thomas Tuchel from Washington.Pat Nevin joins the pod to discuss Scotland drawing Brazil, Morocco & Haiti, as does Scotland striker Lyndon Dykes! We then hear from Scotland boss Steve Clarke.Julien Laurens joins the pod to look at France's potential 'Group of Death', plus how the rest of Europe's top nations may fair. We hear from Cape Verde player Roberto Lopes as they head to the World Cup for the first time, and John Bennett provides insight into the rest of Africa's nations, plus Oceania too. Tim Vickery joins us as we delve deep into Brazil, Argentina and the rest of South America.And finally we hear from correspondent John Murray, having attended a delayed, but bonkers World Cup draw!Timecodes:06:26 England group reaction 13:10 Thomas Tuchel interview 16:55 Scotland group reaction 20:55 Lyndon Dykes joins the pod 28:33 Steve Clarke interview 31:20 The rest of Europe 43:30 Cape Verde's Lopes joins the pod 48:43 The rest of Africa & Oceania too 50:26 South America chat 55:40 John Murray rounds up the drawCommentaries this weekend:Saturday 6th December PREMIER LEAGUE: Bournemouth v Chelsea 1500 KO - 5 LIVE PREMIER LEAGUE: Spurs v Brentford 1500 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3 PREMIER LEAGUE: Leeds v Liverpool 1730 KO - 5 LIVE FA CUP: Chelmsford City v West-super-Mare 1500 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 2 FA CUP: Sutton United v Shrewsbury 1715 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3 FA CUP: Chesterfield v Doncaster Rovers 1930 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3 WSL: Arsenal v Liverpool 1200 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3Sunday 7th December PREMIER LEAGUE: Brighton v West Ham 1400 KO - SPORTS EXTRA PREMIER LEAGUE: Fulham v Crystal Palace 1630 KO - 5 LIVE FA CUP: Slough Town v Macclesfield 1230 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3 FA CUP: Gateshead v Walsall 1530 KO - SPORTS EXTRA 3 FA CUP: Blackpool v Carlisle United 1730 KO - SPORTS EXTRA

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Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. This is the Football Daily podcast with Kelly Cates. Hello and welcome to a special Football Daily podcast reacting to the World Cup draw. We'll be joined by a whole host of guests, including European football expert Julian Laurent, South American expert Tim Vickory, and Five Lives at Ian Dennis, who's been watching all the action coming out of Washington for Five Live.

And you'll join us shortly as we go through each group. We are now 188 days away from the 23rd edition of the FIFA World Cup, 96 years after the inaugural event held in Uruguay in 1930. So who do we think is most likely to be on the podium in New Jersey? On July the 19th, we are one step closer to finding out we know phase one of the World Cup. There are 104 matches ahead, 48 teams, 42 of the places have been confirmed. There are places for the next six, and 16 teams will be reduced to six for those remaining spots. I am delighted to kick things off in the company of former Scotland midfielder,

We're also joined by former England striker, Dionne Dublin, who's just watched Ian Dennis in action. Your head must be spinning, Dion. I don't know how he and you do it, honestly. All those permutations that he came out with, oh my word. I tip my hat to Denno, let me tell you. Yeah, I wasn't doing any of that. I was just listening to Denno.

Good evening, Ian Dennis. Hello, Lady Kelly. How are you? Very well, indeed, thank you. I mean, that was incredible practice for when you do the Eurovision Song Contest. Well, yeah, I don't think we'd have the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, though, taking selfies at the Eurovision Song Contest, would we? But you might have the village people, so, you know, swings aroundabouts in all of that.

It was the most extraordinary spectacle, though, wasn't it? I mean, they always do these things in a very strange way. They always draw them out. They always have the most random kind of appearances. And there were some great moments in all that, some really. really familiar faces, some huge names. And they had a reporter who's a guy, is it Danny Ramirez from the Marvel franchise

who people will recognize, who seem like a genuine fan. The rest of it, chaos, as usual. Absolute chaos. Even the people hosting it didn't seem to know how the draw worked. I know. Well, I mean, as you know, every drawer is normally a palava anyway and it always runs behind schedule.

But I was keeping a running, like a tab on the running order. We're about 20 minutes behind, We had Robbie Williams and Nicole Scherzinger, we had Lauren Hill, we had Andrea Bacheli, did a little performance as well. As you say, we've now got the village people finishing off. It was full of glamour. It was glitz and Rasmataz as only the Americans know how. Yeah, Heidi Kloom, Kevin Hart, Tom Brady, Shaquille O'Neill, Wayne Gretzky, the ice hockey legend. So, group headlines, listen, we've talked enough about the spectacle itself.

We've more than wasted enough time on that. Let's get into the group headlines. Deno, would you like to recap? Well, yeah. I mean, I think we'll do with England and Scotland first of all. So England are in Group 1L and they've got Croatia, and that'll be their opening game, England against Croatia. Just to say as well, that we know the order of the games,

but the venues and the times will be finalised on Saturday. But England, Croatia will be the opening game in either Toronto or Dallas on Wednesday the 17th of June. England will play Ghana on the. the 23rd of June in either Toronto or Boston, and then they will play Panama in their final group game on the 27th of June. The thing that strikes me about Group L is the short turnaround. It actually was the group with the smallest turnaround in terms of games. You've got a four-day turnaround going into that final group game against Panama. Thomas Toekle, I'm sure, will hope that they've already

qualified. But then you've only got a four-day turnaround going into the last 32 match in Atlanta against what will be a third-place side in the last 32. As Scotland are concerned, and as Don has already mentioned on you as well, Kelly, Brazil, who we know all about Brazil as well in Scotland with their World Cup history. It'll be the fifth time that they've met at a World Cup finals. They've never won in their 10 previous meetings. They've drawn two. They've lost eight. Don mentioned the David Neri goal in 82,

when they lost eventually by four goals to war. one, but they met in the opening game in 98, where they lost by two goals to one. They met in Italian 90, a 1-0 defeat, and then that goalless draw in 1974. For Scotland's opposition, they will play Haiti in their first game, which will be in either Boston or New York on Saturday the 13th of June. Scotland's second game will be against Morocco in either Boston or Philadelphia on the Friday the 19th of June, and then they will play Brazil in the final match. on the 24th of June in Atlanta or Miami.

But it's a really, really tough group. We know obviously about Brazil, but even Morocco. They were the first African side to reach the semi-finals in Qatar 2022. But there is, of course, still the hope of finishing as one of the best place finishes regarding a third-place finish, that eight of them will still qualify that way. And Haiti, I guess, would give Scotland the perfect opportunity to do that if they can get off to a good start. and we should mention the potential for Northern Ireland or Wales

only one of them of course will come through that UEFA playoff Italy against Northern Ireland in Bergamo Wales, Cardiff is the other semi-final against Bosnia and Herzegovina and then the winners would meet in Cardiff in the playoff final in March and they will be with Canada, Qatar and Switzerland in Group B All kinds of excitement ahead I just want to run you through of the teams who are confirmed to be there of England and Scotland just run you through those venues once

again. Dennis sort of outlined who's going to be where and when. We'll know much more, as Dennis says about that tomorrow. But the places that England could be playing or will be playing, Toronto, Dallas, Foxborough, back in Toronto, East Rutherford, New Jersey, and Philadelphia. For Scotland, it's going to be Foxborough, East Rutherford, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Foxborough again, Miami and Atlanta. But we're not really sure in what order that's going to happen. So we're going to start by focusing a bit more on England, making their... 17th World Cup appearance. Dionne, thoughts on England, Croatia, Panama and Ghana in Group L.

I always worry about Croatia. I just think they have so much experience. They've got the quality to go with it as well. Panama, I don't know a lot about, but I do know that Ghana, I've got to say Ghana can pull out some incredible performance as they are a strong African nation that will make incredibly difficult, especially, and I'm going technical now on set pieces, and anything physical in both boxes,

England will find it very, very difficult. Quality of player, we have the best, I think, in the whole of that group. But with Croatia and Ghana, Panama, with what we have, we should be okay with all due respect to them. But those two other nations, worried is the wrong word, concerned. Yeah, Panama only in their second ever World Cup and their first since appearing in 2018 in Russia. Ghana, an interesting opponent as well, Don,

because as Dion said, historically, they have been a physical team, but they've got Antoine Semenya, they've got Mohamed Kudas in there, the players that will be familiar to people who watch the Premier League. They're not going to be at Afcon. Do you think that might help them, or will they want to get their international eye in? What do you think? To be honest, I think it's a case of the unknown.

You can never quite sure whether if they went to the Afcon and won it and done really well, it would give them the confidence to go into the World Cup. At the same time, you'd try and drive. or the positive. If you're not in it, you can try and have a little bit more rest, but you're right in terms of the quality of players. I think the African sides are getting closer. I think

Senegal are the strongest. I agree. I agree, Don, yeah. Yeah, but when you look at Ghana, they've got individuals, like you said, kudos, fantastic player, Jordan Ayu. They've got players that we know from the Premier League. It's a difficult group. England will look at that and think, yes, we're obviously favourites. Deon's right to mention Croatia.

Seems to be England's bogey side over the air, so that's a hurdle. They've got to try and overcome, but they should be comfortable going through against Panama and Ghana. And Croatia, you know, as Dion was saying, they have such history at the World Cup, but they have that history with England as well, Dena. It feels like they've been some really crucial moments against them over the years. Yeah, it's the fourth time that they'll have met at a major finals.

And people will think back to the 2018 semi-final where Croatia came from behind to win in Moscow by two goals to one. But England have actually beaten Croatia at the Euros. The last meeting was in the Euros of 2020, where they won by a goal to nil. They also won in Portugal. in 2004 by four goals to two and that will be the opening game as well

and that'll be a game I would imagine that both England and Croatia will certainly not want to lose and then you go into the games against Ghana and then Panama where England beat Panama in Russia in 2018 in Nizhny Novgorod by six goals to one there's a danger of looking too far ahead

when you get the draw as well Kelly but I've mentioned the short turnaround in the games when we're approaching the knockout stages but there's also the potential for a last 16 meeting for England to meet one of the co-hosts Mexico in Mexico City, which would be an interesting experience. But again, you can sometimes look too far ahead in these scenarios.

Yeah, absolutely. And like we said, they've got that record against Croatia. Croatia, of course, excellent at penalty shootouts as well. Should it get to the knockout stages for them? Should they progress? Look, in terms of the overall balance of the group, Don, I mean, Deno was saying there, there's a danger of looking too far ahead.

But this is very much a group that England fans will look at and think that they should progress out of this. I mean, before, as Dennis said, they've got that late turnaround at the latter stages of the group stages. Yeah, I think it's a case of the unknown for England in terms of the conditions. I was at the Club World Cup in the summer. And some games were cancelled.

Some games were postponed. I was in Florida, so they're not playing there. So it's good for England and good for in terms of preparing for a game that you think there's not going to be any storm delays. if it's Toronto for the opening game Toronto's 22 degrees roughly at that time of year relatively sort of familiar circumstances but Dallas can be 34

and that's an average it can be higher than that and like you said the potential for disruption to the games because of storms because they're air conditioning and the ground so it should be all right for fans who are inside

it's just what the knock on effects of that are well that's it I mean but when you look at the you know the team that are playing in their group, you would fancy on paper England should go through comfortably, and they normally do. It's the consequences where they finish, and the route that they finish might be beneficial later on.

But I think you can get carried away when you're looking at the amount of teams in the World Cup trying to plan particular routes for any of the sides that you support. I think you've got to do your homework on Croatia, Panama and Ghana. You've got to give them absolute respect. You've got to make sure you do your homework when you're watching the sides. Dion's probably done it when he's played for England. I've definitely done it under Craig Brown.

playing with Scotland, the amount of work you do behind the scenes every single night watching tapes of the opposition and watching their strength and weaknesses. That's where Thomas Tuchel and the coaching staff have to prepare for the teams that they're playing against. A lot of it as well, sorry Kelly,

a lot of it as well, Don, it's the players making sure that they leave the dressing room with the respect for those teams that they are playing against because as you and I know, we might have been in the dressing room with the better side, the bigger football club

and you can't get a jab on the chin if you don't respect your opponents as you're saying, you know. In terms of the preparations as well, Kelly, I would imagine now they were waiting for the draw, but I think England will now press ahead with their final friendly games in March against Japan and Uruguay,

which will be played at the end of March, both at Wembley. But they've certainly had no discussions with the two nations. So the fact that they've avoided those two, I think that should be rubber-stamped in the coming days. Denner, can we just go over as well? Because Don mentioned it there, having been at the Club World Cup last summer,

I mean, I talked about some of the venues having closed roofs and air conditioning. What sort of things are they doing to try and stop the weather being a factor again? Well, it is going to be a factor. I think that the one thing I'd heard today, Kelly, was the fact that Thomas Tuchel is considering with his substitutes, keeping them inside and not allowing them to sit there with the heat and to be exhausted even before you've even kicked a ball. So that would be something that, I think,

they might look to consider. I think the pace of the games will be a lot slower. As for what the procedures are in place, I'll be honest with you. I haven't seen anything in depth as yet, but I had seen that Thomas Tuchel was considering that for the substitutes. And we can hear from Thomas Tuchel. He's with our correspondent, John Murray. Simple question, Thomas. What do you think? Difficult group, difficult opener, difficult group with Croatia and Ghana to regulars in World Cups and too proud and strong nations and Panama I don't know much about Panama at the moment but we will find out about it until the tournament starts of course for me I'm only

experienced group football in in Champions League formats and I the way to approach it was always to give it the biggest respect and to put all the focus into winning the group it always seems difficult like like our group now but We are confident and we will be well prepared when we arrive. Croatia are never to be underestimated, are they? No one should be underestimated. Of course, Croatia is the standout name, the highest ranked team from POT2 that we got into our group.

But this in Ghana is always full of talent and can always surprise and has a big history in World Cup football. and also Panama will try to make their most as in their underdog role. So no one can be underestimated. Everyone deserves the fullest respect and we will show that. What does it make you think in terms of your base? We know that Kansas is probably the preferred choice. Does that alter your thinking at all?

Or are you now thinking full steam ahead? I think full steam ahead and I need to ask my colleagues at the Federation of what this even means. I was now fully focused on the opponents. I don't even know where we play at the moment. I think this is finally decided tomorrow. And from this decision onwards, we will take decisions in the next month.

And there is the possibility, if you follow through the pathway, that you could actually end up playing in all three host nations. But again, I suppose you'll deal with that as it comes. You know more than me. You look more ahead than me. Like I said, I only know a group and tournament football

from club football, from the Champions League and I was never aware who could be our potential opponents in a quarterfinal who can be a potential opponent in the round of 16. You just focus on the group and why would we lose now any energy in thinking about where we play a potential quarterfinal? If you do this, you have a high chance

that you don't play a quarterfinal. So all the energy goes into match one against Croatia. Just a final overview. first time you've been involved in anything like this, President Trump on the stage, the glitz and the glamour and the Rasmataz. You like it? I do not like it, but we could have done it also without all of this.

I don't need it, but of course it's a huge stage and it's big entertainment. I was very well aware that it's not about the deep. inside of football today it was about the presentation it was about the entertainment and yeah of course we want to make our fans proud and we want to play a big part in this next World Cup which entertains and brings of course joy to so many people so yeah this was the first step and now you can get to work now we go to work straight away and and figure out the best solution to be well-prepared Right, let's move on to Scotland now,

who've ended a 28-year World Cup hiatus. They topped their qualifying group for the first time since 1982, a group that they were third favourites to progress from. They will face Brazil, Morocco and Haiti, and former Scotland winger. Pat Nevin joins us. Good evening, Pat. Good evening, Pat.

Good evening, everyone. Thoughts on the draw from Scotland's perspective. Well, if you can see, I smile on my face, That's because I'm forcing it massively. Do you know what? I think there's two camps, aren't there? There's the kind of Don Hutchison camp, which is just give us the big teams,

we're really excited about it, we want to go and we want to experience the World Cup to the full, and that might as well be Brazil. And then there's the Pat Nevin, I'd quite like to progress from the group, so I'd like to have teams that are beatable in front of us camp. Well, unfortunately, I'm not quite so back and white as that,

but yes, I see your point, and I will take that position. for the moment. The Brazil, you know you love it. Every Scotsman's second team is Brazil, right? So we've got that. So we've got Brazil and we love that and it's a joy to play against Brazil.

I mean, you get one, I hope we become one team that we should beat and we should be. Haiti, it's the other one. That's the problem. It's Morocco. Because I was there against Morocco 98 in France and we were

favourites, I think. Well, certainly Scottish people's minds, as we know. and it didn't happen and it was torture we've got such bad memories and it's left scars that game maybe more than any of the other games and also if you look at Morocco's

recent run it's a phenomenal run at the run just now then I had on top of that Qatar now as we all buzzed about all over Qatar which wasn't a big old journey most of the time I was sent to watch almost all the Morocco games

and I fell madly in love with them I thought they were absolutely wonderful a joy to watch a fine team go all the way at the semi-finals remember that right okay so maybe I'm not as a little enough with them just now this afternoon or the evening as I was then

but they're a very very good team and just listen to what you were chatting about before about the heat about that sort of stuff I have a bit of a suspicion that's going to suit the movie better than Scotland Pat Kelly's just nabbed me on video and I didn't know I didn't see it at the corner of my eye

about 10 minutes ago and I said You know what's going to happen, Kelly? She went, what? I said, well, beat Brazil, lose against Haiti. And she captured it live. And I was genuine, because that's what all Scots will be thinking, weren't they? That's the one.

The famous one back in 78, when we get beat by the teams like Iran, and we ended up beating the Dutch. It's 3-2. They actually gave me a goal, the kind of deGleast's thumb. And the Dutch were arguably the best two or three teams in the world at a time. Yes, that is exactly what can happen with Scotland.

But there's a different narrative around Stevie Clark. and this was Kelly was saying there. The 4-2 game against Denmark there. When the Danes got back and got to 2-2, and many people thought, that's us. Back to good old Scotland, near enough. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, all that sort of stuff.

And I thought, no. I thought, no, the Nara has changed by us now. I really do think that. There's been so many late performances where we've got the win when we might have lost them and been unfortunate before. we've had sob sob stories for a long time but we've three times now at the last four

we've got into these qualifications so I've changed my position from restart from what Kelly thought I now think bring it on but Scotland have to be in the best and we've got the MVP and we've got the MVP and Scott McTominy

we have indeed Napoli's finest bed by tomatoes now he's very impressed with a love the tomato now as we're talking about the resurgence of Scottish football about that change changing expectation around Scotland, largely based off the back of that great result, that great game against Denmark. It's a perfect time to bring in Scotland striker, Lyndon Dikes. Hello, Lyndon.

Hi, guys. What do you think? What do you think about the draw? Tough draw. Obviously, you've got massive teams in there. But I don't think it's something that we should shy away. It's the World Cup. You're going to get hard teams. We've proven ourselves before. So it should be going in full of confidence, I think. But going to a World Cup, and waiting 28 years to go to a World Cup.

Is there not something... And I appreciate that you've got a professional job to do and you've got to try and get out of the group. But is there not something magical about playing Brazil? Yeah, 100%. I think so many people and so many other boys and that would probably say before the draw came out, I hope we get Brazil,

because a lot of us growing up, you know, playing FIFA and whatnot, you've got that team, whoever picked Brazil, it was too unfair because of the players they had. And it's just been like that for generations. So it's going to be iconic. And it makes us even more determined to prove everyone wrong and maybe be our underdog. And I mean, what story that would be if we could beat them?

Lyndon, you've got to be on Cloud 9 still. Your confidence levels, the group, you know, you must be thinking, listen, yes, it's Brazil. yes, there are teams that we possibly aren't better than, but you think that you are because of the place that you are in at the moment as a nation and what you've just achieved and the way you achieved it? Yeah, I think that's one of our major strengths, is how close we are as a team and how much we believe in each other.

What we've done recently and for this nation, I think we've proven a lot of people wrong as a team and even the manager and now we've got everyone kind of on our backs helping us in games And it's like a family when we go away with the boys. We're so close. We do everything together. And the group chat at the moment is gone crazy. And for the whole week, before the playoffs there, we had a massive game of traders,

which Andy Robinson was leading every single player played for the whole week. And, you know, you were, it was just, it just shown how close we are because every time we went for breakfast and that, people were getting killed at night. And you didn't want to pass them certain things. because, you know, you were wondering if there was stuff going on. But I think from what we are as a team from off the pitch, I think it brings us closer. And then on the pitch, we show that as a team. And I think it's going to be a hard group.

But, you know, I believe in my team. I believe myself. And I think maybe we could do something special. There is something in the mentality. I don't know how much you heard of what we were saying before you joined us. But Pat was making that point that this is a different narrative around Scotland, that there is a toughness to Scotland and an ability to see it through

that maybe hasn't quite been there at other times in the past. Yeah, I think, and that's come with time. I think since I've been there for a number of years now, I think it's changed slowly and we've proven ourselves in big games. But I think us as players and the whole nation, we all work hard and we're all fighters,

and that's what we've shown on the pitch. I think when we use our strengths, and that's what gets the best out of us and we've done that we've made you back-to-back euros and for a long time and now we had to look at the World Cup and we've done that

so I think we can hold our heads high and be positive about it and I think still we do have an underdog kind of look on ourselves from other nations and stuff like that but I think definitely people will fear us a little bit because what we can bring sometimes not the nicest to watch, but it's sometimes effective.

How do you deal with the weather? Do you do anything special? Is there anything that needs to be? Me, myself and Don and Kelly and Denne, we're just chatting about how the subs deal with the weather. What do you do? Do you stay away from the heat? Do you stay under Sheltie?

Do you sit on the bench? How do you deal with it? Because, you know, you might have the secrets that a lot of us don't have. I think obviously it's a lot before the game. You have to just make sure you're so hydrated from, you know, players now there's so much nutrition and stuff behind the scenes that people don't see what you eat and et cetera, et cetera. So I think obviously you just have to make sure you're hydrated,

stay out at the sun when you don't want to need to be in it as much as you can. But at the end of the day, the weather's weather. When you grow up, you're playing when it's hailing, snow and sunny or wherever. So I think you just get on with it. And what's being said on the WhatsApp group? You mentioned it earlier on. Everybody's just talking about the draw. What's everybody saying about it?

I think everyone's just, you know, happy at the start. There was a lot of questions. No one knew what was going on because it was a little bit confusing going on at the start. Oh, yeah. But, no, I think everyone was just looking forward to it. You know, everyone's up, wherever they are, you know, different countries and that.

We're trying to look at the draw, what teams we got. And before we even draw, you know, boys are putting in, oh, I hope we're in this group, or don't want them to be in that group, stuff like that. So it was all kicking off. And, you know, it still is now. So for the next few days, it gives it another bit more excitement.

Funny enough, I spoke to Tom Brady. Yesterday, actually, I was telling him to make sure he put us in a good group. Yeah. And funny enough, to put it in the Brazil. And that's a nice name to drop Canada into the chat, isn't it? I've just picked it up for you, Tommy. I've just picked it up for you. But, no, it's funny.

So I did ask for him to put us in a good group. And quite enough, he puts it in Brazil, but no, it's fine. Lyndon, look, we're all really looking forward to it, so I can't imagine what you guys are feeling. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, guys. Good luck, mate. Good luck, good luck.

Thank you, Lyndon. Can you imagine being on a WhatsApp group? Yeah. Can you imagine? Just waiting, waiting to find out who you're going to get, and then get in Brazil. Ah, the boys must be flying. They must be flying.

Good luck to them. Oh, it is. And even Pat's talked to himself around now into getting excited about playing Brazil. But there's so much, there's so much kind of history between Scotland or Brazil. This is the fifth time, 98, 90, 82, 74 going backwards. And, you know, it's not all been, it's not all been, you know, extremely difficult. There have been some really lovely moments in there. Well, we all Scottish people remember the David Nairie goal, yes.

Yeah. No, it wasn't a towpoke. But in reality, yeah, you go about a little back. back a little bit further and there were some closer games in Scotland gave them a bit of a run for the money but we don't want runs for money we want points as much as anything else we must be able to have a fight and have be part of it and I suspect Stevie Clark as long as everyone's fit and that's the thing that we need to work on now and it's the thing you feel most of all if England get four or five injuries so what you've got plenty of other players we can't do that we've got too many If we get an injury to McDonough, or McGinn or whatever, it's disastrous for us.

And we've got a number of, a bit better depth than we've had for some time. But there's a number of players we really cannot afford to be anything other than 100% when we get there. Wrapping them up in cotton wool between now and next summer. Pat, lovely to talk to you. And you too. I'll give everyone else. Speak to you soon. Take care.

Thank you very much. Let's hear from the Scotland manager. Steve Clark now speaking to Jane Lewis. We'll save just your initial reaction to that draw. Yeah, it's good. It took a long time we get to the drawline. But, no, no, listen, the draw's fantastic. One of the big things in my head was no European teams.

So we're playing three top sites for three different continents of the world. And that's what the World Cup's all about. So I think a really good draw. Yeah, Brazil, obviously, they bring all that magic with them too. I mean, that's so exciting, isn't it, to be facing there? Yeah, and we're going to bring a little bit of magic as well, hopefully. So it's great to play them, obviously. If you go back to 1998, which is a long time ago, Brazil and Morocco, we're in the group,

so there's a little quirk of fate. Hayate as the POP4 team will be difficult. They won their qualifying section quite comfortably. But we managed to win others as well, so I'll bring it on. What was it like in the auditorium listening to it? I mean, it must have been a very proud moment for you. What were the emotions like when the draw was being made? No, I think it's great to be involved in the draw.

The biggest thing was the last time we went to a World Cup draw, we were in one of the pathways so you're there but you're not really there this time when you get drawn out the hat and the salt tires up there and you see the name Scotland was pretty special

and obviously the Brazilian manager Carlo Angiotta have you come out you'll have come across him in your career before have you kind of wily old fox he knows what he's doing a two doesn't he? Yeah I've came across

Carlo a couple of times we've not worked with him but ever but obviously we know each other and all one or two his background staff as well So it's a great draw. Anytime you draw Brazil, you get to play Brazil, especially in the World Cup, it's going to be a special occasion.

So the Brazilian fans are great, but the Tatalan army is pretty special as well. That was Scotland manager, Steve Clark. Coming up, we'll look across the rest of Europe, plus South America and Africa. And we'll speak to a player from a nation going to the World Cup for the very first time. Welcome to the team behind the team, a new podcast series in partnership with the Open University, where we'll be showcasing the people, the tools and the techniques that help

athletes and teams reach elite level. Like all elite sports, it's a pyramid and everybody's trying to get to the top. It's not just my vision. It's a shared vision amongst the team. What is this? This is not the way I see the game. The team behind the team with Katie Smith. In partnership with the Open University.

Listen on BBC Sound. You're listening to the Football Daily podcast with Kelly Kitts. We've discussed England and Scotland, but we're going to look across the rest of Europe now. Who better to join us than ESPN's football reporter Julianne LaRont. Good evening, Gillian. Hello, Kelly. Hello, everyone. Hey, Jules. Hey, Jules.

All right. Everybody's very polite. Let's start with friends and their group, Senegal, Norway, and then Bolivia. Iran or Suriname. Yeah, and I spoke to Deshaun, not long before this draw today. And obviously, I know it's very obvious, but like every other head coach, you didn't want to face nowhere from that pot three.

That was the team to avoid. And as the draw was going on, and France being quite low in the groups, and Norway hadn't come out here. And I was thinking, this is it. It's going to happen. We're going to have Mbapé against Holland in the group stage at the World Cup.

It's inevitable now. The two who were supposed to be, or are still, I guess, in course to be, the successes to Messia and Ronaldo in that incredible battle that two superstars can give to each other for Ballandoos and Champions League and World Cups and Euros, et cetera, et cetera. This is it really. So probably somewhere it was written that they would face each other.

Again, I would have rather avoided for the French and I would have like a smoother group, you know, and Senegal it won't be easy either. The fourth team, as you said, would be one of the playoff qualifiers. So it's a bit different, Iraq or Bolivia or Surinam. Personally, between Senegal, Norway and France, I think this is going to be a very, very good contest. It's going to be a really exciting contest. It's a difficult one.

Probably not quite a group of death. Probably not. It's probably not going to get that tabloid moniker. No, you're right. And I mean, especially that France and Norway play each other on the third game. So France, we start with Senegal. Bad memories for the ones who remember the 2002 World Cup. I'm sure Deno was there.

Papa Buba diop. Yeah, exactly. And us as the holders. going to Asia and be beaten by Senegal a very good, the large youth generation of Senegalese players.

The ties between the two countries obviously very strong, the former colony and there's a huge, huge community of Senegalese people either with dual nationality or Senegalese in France.

So it would be a very special game. But it's not a good game, it's not an easy game to start. Senegal are a very complete team. One of the most completes in Africa, probably with Morocco. It'd be interesting to see what they do in Afcon

coming up later this month and in January probably the last World Cup for the Sanyo Mani generation but there's a lot of younger players that we see in the Premier League every week Iliman Enjai or Ishmael Asar who are very good at the moment and this is going to be a tough game to start

and then you've got obviously no way to finish. Yeah, it's going to be tough but could you argue that I mean you mentioned Kiliun Abapé and we know about him but could you argue that France have the strongest starting 11 of the sides in that group and potentially

across the competition? Yeah, I think So it was interesting the other day, Ambapé saying that for him, this is maybe the best squad that he's ever worked with. So better than the one that won the World Cup in 2018, better than the one that reached the final three years ago in Qatar. He said not yet the best team,

but certainly in terms of individual for the 25 or 26 players, Deshaun will take with him to the US. This is probably the most talented. If you look in every position, the clubs they play for, how well they're doing for those clubs, even just, you know, the centre-back situation or the front-form, you know, some big names

are going to be on the bench. And I think he's right. It's still a long way between being the best squad and then becoming the best team. You need a lot of ingredients there. But I think in terms of pure talent, they have to be right up there. So, Jules, what's going to stop France

moving forward to where they think they should be, which is obviously straight to the final with the quality you have? What's going to be the problem? Is the manager going to pick the wrong formation? or is he going to be down to the players and their application? I mean, for once, Diem, maybe because he knows it's his last tournament because he will leave the job after the World Cup,

whatever happens in the summer. So maybe because of that, he's been a little bit more attacking lately, which everybody has been one surprise and two quite happy with. You know, forget the very defensive side, the 4-3-3 with three usually defensive-minded midfielder. This time, you've got potential front-four if everybody's fit of Embapit, Dembele, Duay and Olise. So again, you just look at them for and I'm not sure who can really compete with that.

That's not bad, you know, Jules. That's not bad. That's not bad, you know. So I guess in one way, the strength in Mbapé being in such a great form and that front four being potentially so good is that we are also very reliant on Mbapé. And if he's got a game,

especially in the knockout stages, where usually he's been outstanding the two World Cups that he played, I mean, he scored a hat trick in the last final, for example. But if he's enough there, If the defense of the opposition is good, if he's well marked, then I think we're not sure where to go, really. So let's hope that others can step up.

But suddenly, I don't see many weaknesses in this team. The other interesting thing, you know, looking at that going into that final group game against Norway on the 26th of June, is that both Norway and France will have only had a four-day turnaround going into that match from their second game. But also, Jules, what do you think about, we know about the way that they're going to keep the top four nations apart. You're in the half of the draw with Spain,

whilst England are in the other half of the draw with Argentina. Yeah, I'm not too keen on this protective seating like they, you know, I think you should be able to play, certainly from the quarterfinals onward, you should be able to play whatever the draw gives you really and whoever that is. So as we used to know before, I'm not sure that the change was needed. I'm not sure who really thought, hey, let's do something different because it's been working really well before. I mean, so I was not too keen on that. Everybody has to finish top of their group. And when you look at the draw, the ones really that might not finish. top of the group, probably be the French.

I think England will top their group. I think Spain will top their group. Not even Uruguay can beat them, I think. And then certainly for Argentina as well, they have got the easiest group of all. So if France finished top, then yeah, we can't face each other until semi-final or final. If France finished second, however, then everything is a bit redistributed. So it'd be very interesting. But the other thing that Deshaun was quite happy with, it seemed that all those games then it would be on the East Coast, which is where the French wanted to be.

and I don't think there will be too much travelling to do either. Just to look at a couple of other of the teams involved, Spain, you said, you think that they will probably top their group, not even Uruguay can beat them. That's going to be the last game in the group and probably will be to decide who wins it. Why do you think Spain have the edge? I think, as we've been saying,

I know they lost the National League Final to Portugal, but they've been really outstanding since Delafronti took over. The Euros was great. Even if England pushed them well in the final, I still think they were deserved winners, really. And when you look at this Uruguay team under Marcelo Bielsa, who we know well, obviously, the former leads manager. For him, it's a bit of an irony as well to play against Spain

after coaching Athletic Club the Bilbao for many years over there. He started well, but the intensity and maybe he's very demanding side of coaching, of managing, as tired those players a bit. They were humiliated by the US in the last international break. The last few months have been very difficult. He thought about resigning. which is never good six months before World Cup. So I don't think Uruguay will get into this tournament

in the best of shape, really. And that's why I think Spain, who should also be Saudi Arabia and Cap Verde, pretty easily in their first two games, should go and top their group quite easily. Normally, when we're talking about European Giants heading into a World Cup, we would have Germany right up near the top of the list.

But they're sort of crashing through the tournaments at the moment. Yes, it's been a quite interesting qualifiers group for them. Remember? before the last game against Slovakia, a loss and they would have to go through the playoffs as well. So you just don't know with them right now, what kind of Germany you will see. They are capable of being very good

and Jamal Musiala is still injured. It will come back in January, probably. And then we'll see what kind of fitness it will have for the World Cup. And if you think if Vets is on top form, if Muscella is on top form with Volta Maldi and Havers are on top form, there's something really interesting to do there, certainly attacking-wise. Defensively, I'm not so sure, really.

And again, Julian Nagorsman, at the Euros, we saw some positive things and they were maybe a little bit unlucky against Spain in that quarterfinal. But overall, they were not good enough really to be able to compete with the top teams. And I'm not sure if they will be in this tournament either. Group stage exits in 2018 and 2022, but potential opponents for France in the last 16. Talk to me about Belgium, Jules, because I feel like we've had conversations over the Euros, over the World Cup for quite a few years now, about Belgium's golden generation, that never quite delivered on their promise.

And now they're kind of old gold. Yeah, old gold. Or for the Hazard generation, that's obviously gone. For the DeBron generation, this is probably, and the Lukaku and the Courtaire generation, this is probably the last chance they have. I'm not as much as I like him because he's French. I'm not tweaking on Rudy Garcia as the head coach of the national team.

And we've seen in the qualifiers that, again, there's been some good moments, but they could not control games for too long. They were conceding goals. Wales gave them two really good games, for example. They struggled at times, even against smaller side, just to create and things. But if the Brun and Lukaku come back to full fitness, they're currently injured, if Jeremy Doku can arrive at the World Cup in top form and everything he can bring on

the left and side, Leandro Trosa as well, who started really well with Arsenal. They've got a good squad still. I'm just not too sure about Garcia in this kind of World Cup environment. For him, who's never coached an international level before, a bit like two-huller, a bit like, Nagorsmann in the last euros and also defensively. Apart from court, where the defence is not the most solid. Where, and I'd like to get everybody's thoughts on this, because I want to ask about Portugal and the inclusion of Cristiana Ronaldo,

who should have been suspended for this. However, it's a suspended suspension and he will be available to play. Thoughts on the maneuverings that have allowed him to be part of this World Cup, which is almost certain to be his last World Cup. Jules, do you want to get first? Yeah, happily, Kelz. I mean, you can just go on social media and check on the viral clip that Five Life put out of me going against Guillem Balagie

who thought, yeah, of course, he deserves not to be banned because he's Christiano and it's a tribute to his great career and I thought this was the most disgraceful case ever. I think this is a horrendous decision by FIFA to grant him that suspended suspension, really. He should not be playing at least the first game. because of what he did against Ireland, that red card is a straight red card.

It's not a one-gam ban. It's Cristiano or no, Cristiano, it doesn't matter. It's the same rule for everybody. And I know there's been circumstances before where bands were not as long as they should have been, but for the right reason. This was not for the right reason. So I don't really understand that from FIFA.

I think it's a really disgraceful decision. Does anybody want to take what we're going to describe as the Balagay position and defend Cristiano Ronaldo? Definitely not. They've made a mockery of them. disciplinary issues. You can't be bending the rules just because it's Ronaldo.

You can't bend the rules. Players and managers will want the same right across the board. I mean, I'm not sure where Giam's coming from in terms of just because he's one of the world's best or has been one of the world's best. You should allow him to play his last ever

World Cup. It's a poor stance in my opinion. Does it happen to anybody else that does that in the world? No. No. Dion and Deno, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. Deno especially.

Thank you so much for guiding us through that bun fight of a draw. It was very clarifying. Thank you very much. I'm off for a lie down. No, you're not.

You're with Dion. I know exactly where you two are off to. Thank you very much. Both of you. Lovely to talk to you. Don Hutchison and Julian Arana are staying with us. Eight African teams

qualified for next year's competition. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Senegal and South Africa. BBC World Services, John Bennett joins us now. We'll bring John in in just a moment

because one of the tournament debitants are Cape Verde. Shamrock Rovers and Cape Verde defender, Roberto Lopez, joins us. When you head out to the World Cup, I mean, first of all, can you believe that we're saying that sentence? Can you believe that we're saying when you head out to the World Cup? Yeah, look, it's amazing. I say when we reach qualification, it was such like a dream control in that moment.

And I think since that, we've looked really more forward to the draw, saying who we'd be facing. We wanted a big nation. We wanted a big draw. And we couldn't have asked so much bigger than Spine. So we're really looking forward to that. And Uruguay in the mix as well,

like a really strong football in nation. And just their fans, South American fans at World Cup are amazing. And Saudi Arabia, off the back of beating Argentina at a World Cup, they're doing some really interesting investment into that football. So we'd be interested to see

what they bring to the party as well. It's interesting because you mentioned Saudi Arabia with that win over Argentina in Qatar, in Argentina's opening game in Qatar. And I wonder if performances and results like that make you think you go out there as the underdogs.

But you realise when you look back at some of particularly the early results in the tournament, it's possible. It's possible to get more than people might expect from you. Of course we qualified in America. We didn't win a lucky job to be there.

So we have to believe we deserve to be there and we're there to compete. Will it be difficult? of course, I will. I think the level of international football is gone to so high over the last few years that there are no easy games for anybody. So we have respect every team in a group. Like it's going to be the hardest game we're going to play. But we're there to win games and trying to allow the group. That has to be our goals. No matter how difficult it might be. Yes, it's worth saying, Kelly, that this is no fluke. The fact that the Cat Verde are at this World Cup. They have been building for this for a long time. And you mentioned it there, Pico,

the fact that they qualified brilliantly knocking out Cameroon, who hold the record for qualifying for the World Cup more than any other African nation. And Pico, you've been to the last couple of Africa Cup of Nations as well, last 16 quarterfinals. How much confidence does that give you the fact that you qualified ahead of Cameroon and the fact that you've done well at Cup of Nations as well? Yeah, definitely. I think it's been something that's been building the last few years

since I've been involved in Cape Red. We saw it building towards Cammy Qualified for a World Cup. We had a really good qualification campaign in 2022, too, narrowly missed out topping our group in Nigeria. But I think off the back of that and playing in the Afcom, we start gaining a bit of confidence

to say that we can mix it with some of the best teams in Africa and off the back of our performance as well. I think more players of dual legibility started to take interest and take note. We got some really good players off the back of that, along with the Cape Raiders born there

who were talisman for us like. Just with that sort of experience, gel together, to start youth and enthusiasm, we just had this inner self-belief that you could qualify for our first ever woke up. And I think, yeah, you mentioned the last half-com making to the other quarter of finals

missing out on penalties to South Africa. It just made us want to go out one step further and now we're here. And Pico, tell us a bit more about that recruitment because your story is probably not a usual one in terms of international football. No, it's probably not how you imagine probably getting your forced call up,

but mine was true LinkedIn. I know a profile for college and different Cape Air manager or former Canadian at the time messaged me on it in Portuguese which I didn't speak at the time so I just thought it was a general sort of spam message or welcome message

so I ignored it but thankfully nine months later he came back and mess with me in English asking the thing about the proposal which was would have been interesting in clearing for Cape Verde that's looking to get some new players into the team so I did what I should have done the fourth place and Google translated it the fourth message

but that was that was all real it was all legit and I said look at this opportunity is still here I'd love to be a part of it and got to tell me

what seven years later if you're playing the fourth of a world cup I'd never want to believe it so it really is the stuff of dreams you say that you didn't speak Portuguese at the time

do you speak it now? Yeah I've been trying to learn bits and peace to say it's not fluent but it's a lot better to where it was the language in Cape Brad is Creole

which is just a spoken language so there's not many resources to learn it I've picked up a few awards with that as well. So the lads have been really good to me, help me out as well every time I go down there. Thanks very much, Pico. Good to speak to you.

There's some always brilliant stories around the World Cup. It's worth pointing out the teams, the African teams that didn't make it to the World Cup. You talked about Camero in Nigeria. Yeah, because there were some controversial comments from the Italy boss, Janaro Gattuso, where he complained about the amount of spots that African teams get,

and he was hinting that he felt it was quite easy to qualify from Africa but you're right you look at the teams that aren't there we talked about Cameroon knocked out by Cat Verde then Nigeria who were knocked out in the playoff by by Dior Congo you know these are teams that they're used to getting to World Cup so it's not easy at all despite the expanding World Cup to qualify from Africa so for the likes of Kat Verde to be there for South Africa as well to be there for the first time since 2010 first time they've qualified since 2002 because of course they were host in 2010 that is still a massive achievement

We are slightly squeezed for time because the ceremony itself overran quite significantly. So just to run you through Algeria, they're making their fifth World Cup appearance. But this is their first since 2014. So they're back in the World Cup. Tunisia, seven appearances at the World Cup. Only Scotland have made more without ever making it past the group stages. Egypt, of course, coming in from Africa as well. Most Salon never won a major trophy with Egypt.

They're off to Afcon very shortly, 15th of December. they all go over to Afcon. So they're looking to try and use that as a platform in order to build on for the World Cup. Garner won't be at Afcon and then they will be at the World Cup. Antoine Tomeini, of course, one of their star players along with Mohamed Kudus. Ivory Co's current Afcon champions. You've got Senegal who would be talking about in the buildup to the World Cup a lot more for obvious reasons. What about in terms of Oceana and Asia, John?

Yeah, two debuts to look out for from the Asian. Confederation. So Uzbekistan, who were known as Asia's chokers, because they kept getting close to reach the World Cup, but just missed out, particularly in 2006 and 2014. But they are here now, and Fabio Canavero, former Ballando winner, is their manager. He's only just taken over. He wasn't the manager when they qualified. Another debutant is Jordan, who reached the Asian Cup final in 2023. They'll be up against Argentina, so really exciting for them. And Saudi Arabia, I want to mention them because Herve Renaud is their manager and of course he was in charge at the last World Cup

massive upset when they beat Argentina will he fancy another upset against Spain because they're in the same group of Spain John, thank you very much as always lovely to talk to you six South American teams confirmed to compete Argentina, Brazil Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay

and Uruguay, South American football expert Tim Vickory joins us to run through them and Tim we're going to start with Argentina. They're in with Algeria, Austria and the debutante's Jordan and that looks straightforward. Yeah, although I think

in the entire history of the World Cup this is the draw where your group phase opponents matter least because in so many of the groups three will go through and what I think is more important we're going to find out tomorrow

it's the timing of the games because extreme heat is going to be a key factor here, but certainly Argentina, when they're trying to do what has never been done before, no one has ever retained the World Cup outside their home continent. Now, North America, it's a long, long way away. The distance between Argentina and Mexico City is further than that between London and Chennai or Kolkota. It's a different hemisphere, so they're not on home ground. It's a long, long way away. But things have gone extremely well for Argentina since winning the World Cup. They've won everything. They qualified first in qualification by a street, and they're not

as dependent on Leonel Messi as they once were. In fact, can I whisper this? Can I whisper it? I know what you're going to say. There have been times, my friends, when they've even been better without him. They beat Brazil for one in qualification. Yes, and he wasn't there. He wasn't there. In the Copra America final last year when they beat Columbia, they actually improved when he went off injured. My worry about them going through the World Cup is it's the same defensive unit that collapsed so many times no one knew has come through,

collapsed so many times in Qatar and you kind of feel that with an extra knockout round in this World Cup surely once this is going to prove fatal but they will be very, very happy with the draw that they have received today. Lionel Scoloni, the coach, came in the building with the World Cup

he will hope to leave the building in New Jersey with the World Cup in July but as I say if they do that history will have been made but obviously when we think of the World Cup we think of Brazil

now they will be quaking in their boots because they've got Scotland that aside that aside they are one of the teams that everybody looks out for at the World Cup

what can we expect from at this one well they're happy with their draw the games are mostly East Coast oh rude yeah sorry sorry

they're probably more worried by Haiti than now by anyway New Jersey Boston Philadelphia Miami 1 in Atlanta

but that's with air conditioning and Carlo Ancelotti thinks their games are likely to be in the evening

and I think they're very very happy about that it's all a bit of a rush because Ancelotti's

come in last minute he has vastly improved the side but what he wants to do what he's

trying to do is four up front two wingers Matheos Cunia as a kind of maybe Lucas Pacitar as the third in midfield but Mateos Cunia is a kind of off the centre forward and that just leaves

unless he revolutionises football and smuggles a 12th man on the field and a referee doesn't notice that the mathematics of that leave you with two in central midfield one of whom is Casamiro who will be 34 that's the first thing he did when he came back

Ancelotti I'm having Casimir he's coming in he was out in the cold he's coming in will he still be able to do it at the end of a hard season in conditions of extreme temperature. So, Brazil are happy with where their games are going to be played. But if Ancelotti can make that attacking talent fire, as he has hinted at doing in some of the friendlies,

no one is going to relish facing Brazil. Tim, we've got time for one more. Who would you choose? Probably Colombia. Okay. It's not a bad group. Portugal, Uzbekistan, and whoever, comes through from the Alcongo or almost certainly Jamaica.

They're a little bit over-reliant on Hamis Rodriguez and Luis Diaz. But they're tough, they're strong. And Ecuador are interesting as well. Ecuador, the last 11 rounds of qualification, they conceded one goal, one goal. They're 15 games unbeaten, and even so that the coach is under intense pressure because they don't score any. But no one's going to relish playing them. And them against Germany could be interesting.

Them against the Ivory Coast, there's some great battles first round between South America and Africa. Great battles. I mean, Brazil, Morocco, Ivory Coast, Ecuador, Argentina, Algeria, some fabulous battles. The appetite already, my friends, is well and truly wetted. Yeah, absolutely. Tim, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you. So, look, we've got lots to look forward to. This tournament's going to mark the first time that the World Cup is staged across three countries, though. There are logistical demands around that. Canada, Mexico and the United States are co-hosting.

It's only the second instance of a co-host as well. Japan and South Korea did it, as you remember, in 2002. John Murray is our man in Washington. There is a delay to Washington. So I'll be very clear in terms of my questions, John. Is this draw ceremony a sign of things to come? Is this going to be all about the show? Well, it won't be the first delay of the day.

It took a heck of a long time to get round to the bit that we were interested in. the marathon's over now and you know I think we can really I was listening to Tim Vickery there and you know absolutely some of the matches and and some of the possibilities you just can't wait for it to come round can you no they do look incredible what's the appetite in the room for this World Cup oh it immense it really feels like the biggest World Cup so far that's what I would say to you coming here to Washington, just the buzz around the place over the last couple of days. And, you know, I mean, it's a bit of a stereotype.

It's a bit of a cliche to say the world and his wife are here. But honestly, that's what it feels like. Already today, before the draw, I was collared by some colleagues from Paraguay. So I went live to Paraguay. Shortly after that, I was live to Mexico. And we also bumped into some colleagues from Honduras. on the way in and I suppose that is it. It's always been one of the great

magical things about going and covering World Cups because you mix with people from every corner of the world and that is going to be the same and then some for this World Cup. So I think that is something that anyone who's able to afford to come to this World Cup

and get tickets for it I think that will be one of the great experience as just that mix. John, I mean it is the pinnacle, isn't it, a football when you when you think of Champions League and domestic football all around the world. But the World Cup is the World Cup. And that was my takeaway.

The draw was, it is what it is. But you've been in the auditorium tonight. It gives you that sense of, yes, this is real. This is happening. Being in three countries is going to be pretty special. As you said, there's so many teams and so many good groups, it just wets the appetite, doesn't it? Yeah, and it feels like you're at the crossroads of the world

when you're in the area that I'm speaking to you now, which is like the interview area once all of the coaches come in. I mean, you turn one way and Carlo Ancelotty is walking by, you turn the other way Thomas Tuchel is walking towards you, and that's how it is, Didier Deshaal, all of those coaches who are vying to win this thing. And I always listened to Gareth Southgate when he talked in terms of the way that he transformed again,

the thinking about England. And it was that if you win with England, if you win the World Cup with England it doesn't matter what you've done in your career, how many Premier Leagues and how many Champions League, whatever trophies that you've won, ball and doors, if a team

of English footballers are able to win the World Cup, those players, this is what they'll be remembered for for the rest of their lives and that is the bottom line. John, we heard your interview with Thomas Tuchel just a little bit earlier. Did you find him excited? Did you find him a little bit

tense because really the World Cup starts today and he's got six months to get everybody ready to maybe sort the issues that he might have, pick his squad, a lot of things can happen between now and the start of the World Cup obviously in terms of players' form, injuries, etc., etc. But how did you find him even off record? Yeah, you know, he's always straight and, you know, he will, in saying that, I think he needed to go away and have a look at, as I'm sure. you've discussed the short gaps between some of the later games and the groups and potentially the first matches in the knockout rounds and as you heard it seems fairly certain

doesn't it that they will go for kansas now but i think the the schedule for his england squad players is going to be a big thing for him and it's just an unknown isn't it there are six english teams in the champions league so there is every chance that that six english teams could go deep into the champions league might not happen but it might happen and in that case, the weight of football that is on those players, and yes, being a later starter in the World Cup for England, there will be a little bit of a gap there, but he wants to play these two games in Florida, and then it swings and roundabouts, isn't it? They might have a little bit of a gap at that point, but then it's going to become intense very quickly

in the conditions that we're expecting here in the United States next summer, and so recovery time is going to be all important. So I think that's how it is with Thomas Tuchel, as you heard, there are a lot of unknowns. You mentioned the conditions. It's been very different today. You've been outside queuing in the snow, John. We seem to have talked for such a long time about

how the World Cup next summer it's going to be all about dealing with the heat and the sweltering temperatures and thunderstorms brought on by hot and humid conditions. Honestly, I couldn't believe it when I opened the curtains this morning and there was a blizzard outside the window

in the middle of Washington. And then, because of the unique way that big occasions like this work these days, particularly when the President of the United States is turning up, the security was watertight. And it was a little bit like Germany, if you remember last summer, when even though, as I mentioned, the world and his wife are turning up, they've put on maybe two or three scanners for everyone to get through. So, listen, I'm not looking for sympathy, but we were queuing outside in the snow for 90 minutes before we were eventually able to get through security and get into the venue here.

Happy Christmas, John. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. See, I've got this mental image now of John waking up in his bedroom, boxer shorts on, restanting in sunshine, and it's six feet of snow. Oh, John Murray, thank you very much. John Murray, joining us from Washington,

a freezing cold, blizzard-filled Washington at the moment. The big headlines from that one, England's group, Croatia, Panama, Ghana, Scotland, are Brazil, Morocco and Haiti. It is possible, of course, that Wales or Northern Ireland could be in a group with Canada, Switzerland and Qatar. That is depending on their playoff. France for Julien-Laurens benefits, Elvis, Senegal, Norway and another recipient of a playoff place. And that is all we have time for. Thank you so much to all our guests this evening. And thank you very much for listening.

This winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia do battle to compete for the ashes. That is extraordinary. Hear live ball by ball commentary on Fife Sports Extra. And get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the Test Match special podcast. The stops out of the ground. Test match special at the Ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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