Football Daily - World Cup: England Out & Tuchel Under Fire

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

England's World Cup dream is over.Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith react after England's heartbreaking semi-final defeat to Argentina, reflecting on the emotions after the final whistle, the key moments that decided the game and why they're left frustrated by Thomas Tuchel's decisions.ESPN's Mark Ogden joins to assess the substitutions, the criticism facing Tuchel and what comes next for England after falling short of the World Cup final.Plus, CBS' Nico Cantor gives the Argentinian perspective on the victory, as he and Lloyd debate football culture, the so-called 'dark arts' and why Argentina believe doing whatever it takes to win is simply part of the game.And after five unforgettable weeks in Los Angeles, Rick and Lloyd say goodbye to LA before heading to New York for the final stages of the tournament.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the global story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe. We have this ability to export our story, and a lot of people have bought it. I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well. From the BBC, it's the United States,

2.50. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Football Daily at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith live from LA. Hello, this is The Football Daily with Rick and Lloyd and there's no point dancing around it. I'm absolutely, well, not only am I gutted, I'm also quite cross. You gotted, you cross, sad, disappointed.

Disappointed. Yeah. Yeah. You know where people say I'm not angry, I'm disappointed. Yeah. I'm angry and disappointed. We should probably just let the listeners know that if they don't know what we're talking about. Yeah, I feel like if they're listening to the football day, they probably know what happens?

Oh, right. So you're saying that my... Yeah, go on. I was about saying my mum, but my mom was... Yeah, I know your mom was. I've seen the photos of over their friends. My mom was texting me some fantastic stuff. Some fruity language in there, actually.

Very fruity language, which we'll go through maybe in a minute. England lost two-one to Argentina in the FA Cup. Have you lost your mind? I wish it was the FA Cup. I have absolutely lost my mind. England lost two ones, Argentina, and the FA Cup today. If anyone was running the World Cup semi-final. Oh, my goodness.

I mean, that just sums up. This is last day of a stag do feel. Yeah. Well, it's one of those where it's inexplicably a three-day stag-do. So you've had a great time on the first two. And then on the third day, if I was like, why aren't we home? No, do you know what? I wish I was home.

Also, as well, because we're here and we're here to the very end, this basically has the vibe of, it's a way. week-long stag do, but the stag got really badly injured on day two. Had to be airlifted back to the UK. We're still here. We're still here. And the best man went with him, so you just got four or five strays. And we don't necessarily even know each other.

No, we're going, should we still go paintball in? Are we going to go paintball in New York? It's what he would have wanted. He's not dead. Well, we don't know that. Anyway. Yeah. So we went and watched it in the Irish pub that we've watched a few other games.

Yeah. and it all right you shut up trying to move for that um a little

an oink cheers me out thank you mate you know I like that and and it was really it was really tense because Argentina came out

and they were aiming to ruffle England's feathers they did and it was it was quite dirty the ref I thought was abysmal

like I don't know what he was what he was playing at. And it was obviously part of Argentina's game plan. And it, well, it sort of worked. Yeah. But then, you know, after 55 minutes, Anthony Gordon scored.

It's a great goal. We went absolutely ballistic. And it was a fantastic feeling. And I honestly thought, we've kind of, we've got through it. We've done the hard work here. We've done the hard bit. Now you protect it. Now, what I wasn't expecting is Thomas Tuchel to,

to try and protect it in the way that he did, which just bring on every defender he had at his disposal. And so he just sit in a line at the back. Genuinely, did every... I'm so cross. Did every defender come on? I'm just going to have a little look at the... Well, Conzer came on for Gordon.

Yeah, okay. Dan Byrne came on. Poor old Trevor Chalabber. Oh, Trevor Chalabber. Trevor Chalab was like, oh, my God. Yeah, I've got chance. Get cane off. Get cane off.

He's blowing. Just going to Thomas. Hey, look at Kane. Look at Kane. I'm checking... Look, we'll just go. We go four in the middle and then a couple of fallbacks as well. I'm checking for scores. It's live. They're giving him 5.6 Thomas. Let's get him off. Get me up top with Dan Byrne.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it was reduced to at the end. And then sort of bringing on Ivan, Ivan Tony and Rashford with sort of three minutes left. You know, that's pointless, mate. You were wearing your Grimsby shirt. It's been lucky up to this point. Not anymore. So we're going to have to burn it. Well, do you know what? There was a little bit of thought. Grimsby shirt that came out the other week is a replica of that old one and I got sent the new one. There was a bit of me this morning going, should I wear the new one? I thought, I can't wear the new one. Imagine if I wear the new one. Even though it's pretty much identical. But yeah, so that will have to throw that into the sea. So if you want, it's worth about 200 quid to be fair. Is it? What? The reaction in the pub when Enzo Fernando scored the equalizer.

Yeah. Honestly, was one of resignation because you just saw, you just saw, you just saw how it was going. Like, we, England a bit, were lucky not to, well, Pickford had made the one fantastic save. No, a couple of good saves.

One that was, one that was super, one that was, and there was a few where they were just like straight at him and if they'd been a couple of feet,

I'd decide, probably goals. But there was the long range one that he chipped out of the fire as well. Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was Enzo Flanders with one of his warm up shots,

I think, shots. But he had a few of those and did England for like closing them down? Oh, thank you. and and then when it you know when we got to 90 minutes

and we saw the nine minutes of extra time we're sort of saying well initially well producer jonathan said something about what I'd have probably waited for extra time to bring on a few more these players and you said and I said I don't think we're getting to extra time and I just looked at you and I don't think so either

because just like we there was no there was no sense that we could resist the tide there was no game player well there was terrible Sorry. Yeah. You can see what the game plan was.

There was no game plan for us to score. There was no game plan to advance to go to the World Cup final. But I also thought we were probably going to concede because they were making chances. You invited it. And what is so... Massey had so much space and he doesn't need space. But this is the thing. Like if you are playing against, and like Argentina are not a one-man team,

but they do happen to have the best footballer in the world in their team. Dot dot-dot-dot-ever. Yeah. and so if you are just lumping the ball up and they are then just processing again, recycling it again, and you're giving it to messy because we had no one in the middle

to be a playmaker to go, oh, let's get it out to so and so. I don't know why. When we scored, we didn't just keep going. To be fair, just before Rogers put that fantastic ball in. And again, the goal. We should talk about the goal. The goal was a brilliant...

It's a brilliant ball and it's a brilliant finish. Bit of press, you know what I mean? wrestling rice, I guess it's Rogers, Rogers puts in a fantastic ball. That finished by Gordon, I mean, look, we're going to be talking about Thomas Tuchold and the 76 defenders that we've had on, but that was a fantastic finish. About two minutes before that, I was like, look, I think we bring Sacker on for, we think we bring Saker on for Rogers, because Rogers has been a little bit kind of, well, absent really.

You just thought a bit of pace on the Flanks, and Gordon, you know, was getting tired, although he got in for the goal. And he just thought, well, we must be bringing Sacker or Rashford on or even Madwake, just a bit more. And that just didn't happen. It didn't happen. They tried to shut the shop, but they forgot the keys to the shutters. Yeah, but they left all the windows.

Oh, yeah, that's be fair. They left all the windows open. So maybe they shut the door, but all of the windows were open and the back door. And there was a sign outside saying, shops open. Shop's open. Help yourself. And then arrows pointing to the windows and the door saying, really, Argentinian players, please come on in.

Help yourself. Yeah. It's absolutely horrible. I was horrible. I will say that Argentina took advantage of that and played, I think, really well, better than I think I've seen them play in this tournament. From the hour goal onwards. Yeah, 100%. I think so.

I thought they were excellent. And I didn't, like, at the end of that game, no part of me thought England deserved to win that. And that's a real, that's a real shame. That's where the disappointment is sadness comes from, I think. Had we managed to get a second goal after that first and then shut up, shop, or try to shut up, shop, or slowly start closing the shutters? We didn't look like, we didn't look like scoring any goals. I mean, neither. I mean, it was very, it was so cagey.

I think there was one shot in the first half? I don't think England had one shot in the first half. Yeah, so he didn't feel like it. No. So, yeah, we looked pretty impotent. And to be fair, up until the changes, so did Argentina. Actually got a stat here, Rick, sorry, from Opta, England versus Argentina. In the first World Cup match on record since 1966.

I don't know what happened that year. Not a single shot in the first 30 minutes. The previous record for the longest wait for a shot was England's last game against Norway. 29 minutes. Yeah, we're an exciting team to watch, aren't we? Cricky. It is just so frustrated. and you know we saw bellingham come out afterwards

and just say he's so frustrated because you want you know that whole mentality is they want to put that second start on the badge that's been their aim that they've said look what is what do we want you know it's all right saying that we want and when do we want it well ideally it would have been now

before the 60th minute yeah but they it's sad because we've got I think the best England team we've had for years and years and years and Harry Kane will probably have another World Cup, will he be where he is? Do you not think?

I don't know about that. Euros, yes. I can't, it'll be 30. I mean, look, Messies saying anything's possible. Yeah, but Kane will be 36 and Messi is somewhat of a freak in that regard. Look, let's see, but I think you've got certain players that won't be around. Okay, here we go.

That's right. Ah. Not now. Not now. I'm still not. I'm still not ready for it. Join in. Oh, we've got go-cutting tomorrow.

We've got go-cutting and that all-inclusive brunch. I'm just sad because this was, you know, a fantastic generation of players that we, that should have gone all the way. And I think they have been let down by managerial decisions. That's, yeah, that's the last thing I'd say is I personally don't feel like I could put any blame on players at all. Not at all.

I don't think I did anything wrong. I actually, this is in my drafts, because I didn't, I didn't put it on social media because I thought, no, just, just calm yourself down. Let's hear what could have got Rick Edwards cancelled. Yes, I wouldn't have been cancelled, but it's a bit, it's a bit petty. I said, there's a show starting in the US tonight called Nation's Dumbest.

Thomas Tuchel's Tactics, a shoe-in for season two. Oh, that's good. It's all right. It's all right. And then I just thought it's too. That was very heat at the moment. It was a bit. It needs a bit of work.

It's fine. I'd send that to Reese James. Yeah. Not the footballer. Punch it up. Not the footballer. I've got the wrong one. He'll have other things on his mind.

Man, if you've got both of those people in your phone book, Reese James is a comedian. He'll come up with that. Really good joke. Yeah. You can do that on. Not the week. Yeah.

Well, let's bring in ESPN's Mark Ogden. I mean, Mark, I feel like England were in not complete control, but control at one. and then the game just turned. Yeah, I mean, watching it from the stadium, you were thinking at some point Thomas Tupre's probably going to put on maybe Marcus Rashford switching up a little bit because Argentina were pressing so much that England needed some sort of counter-attacking threat,

but this kept getting deeper and deeper and deeper, and it was just like this can't sustain itself because you can't defend deep at 30 minutes against Argentina. It was just crazy. Why do you think he made those early substantiated? that were so defensive. Was there any thinking by, do you think? Well, obviously it worked here to Mexico.

It worked in Mexico City, and I guess if it's worked before you try it again. But Mexico and Argentina are completely different animals. Argentina have got much greater forwards that they've also got Lean on Messi. And the one thing that I think you see with Argentina, people have asked me, how do they keep winning games later on? Well, what happens is teams are so frightened of Messi that they don't want to counterattacks. They don't want to press too much in lead gaps at the back.

So what they do is they defend even deeper and deeper and deeper, which just invites him on. So that was a problem that they basically played right into Argentina's hands. Is there a degree of naivety then from Tuchel, bringing on those defensive substitutions and thinking they might be able to protect a lead for half an hour? When you kind of knew there was no outball for England. If England did win possession momentarily,

they couldn't hold onto it. And if they clear it upfield, then Argentina just recycled it. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the possession stats from when Anthony Gordon scored in the 55th minute to the end. England had 12% possession. Argentina had 88. And it felt like that. And that, to me, that's embarrassing. Well, you mentioned naibity there at the outset.

It shouldn't be naibety because Thomas Trukel's hired because he was the guy that had won a Champions League. He was a top-level coach. He was the guy that, whereas Garrow Southgate kind of fell by the wayside and didn't make the big decisions, Tuka was going to do it. And he did exactly what Garra Southgate was blamed for doing by being too cautious, too slow to make changes. And I have no idea why he did what he did put on defenders. And, you know, Linos Scalona, the Argentina coach, he worked for more attacking changes.

And that made the difference. You know, England put on Dan Byrne to defend the lead. Argentina put on Lattero Martinez to win it. And, you know, fortune favours the brave. But he talked about the outball. Harry Kane was poor today he was really poor he didn't offer anything in the sense of bearing in mind it was playing

against at the end of the game a 38 year old said to half in Nicholas Ottomende Kane just looked like he couldn't run so why was Ivan Tony not put on earlier why was Rashford not put on just to just to give Argentina something to worry about some pace on the counter attack so the other thing that I found

frustrating and a deeply frustrating game overall was our seeming inability to learn certain patterns so the corners that Argentina were taking, every single time is the same thing, and it seemed to fox us. And I just, that was driving me, that was driving me mad. And then the thing where they just play it out to the edge of the box, and they've got someone, normally Enzo Fernandez, with tons of room ready to shoot.

And he's a guy, you know, from Chelsea, who can score from range. And before he scored the goal, that's a good goal. I mean, there's no one on him. He's had a sighter about, like, two minutes before. and you think, why is that not being addressed? Well, there's a theory in the modern game that players are now so over-coached that they only know what they're supposed to do.

And if it comes to a point where they do something they're not supposed to do it, they don't want to take that chance, they don't want to break out of the rigid coaching structure. So they've been brought up in academies and with coaches that say, all you do is this, focus on that. So anything kind of outside of that, they're at a loss, but the difference with Argentina is all these players, you can tell they come through a different system.

They can think on their feet. They can play off the cuff. And that's what they did tonight. And just as an aside, I thought it took England maybe half an hour to realize that they were in a street fight, a game that they'd never really quite encountered, that it was a dirty game,

it was an edgy game, and Argentina were really pushing the limits. And England were kind of shot by it, because they're so used to play in this sterile Premier League and Champions League environment, Argentina really dragged it back to a street game, and a lot of the players, the England players were like,

how do we deal with this? It seemed like that. The first, I think it was like a tailor two halves, really, the first half, very kind of, as you say, like a little courtyard in South America and then in the second half a game of football where the referee didn't really need to get involved.

It was sort of attack the defence, isn't it? Yeah. Like a training exercise that attack was much better at. Atone was set for the game because of the way the referee referee, I think the Argentina players knew they could push the limits and again, what I'm saying, that the England players is they didn't have that game intelligence. I can't think of a better word for it really

without being offensive, but the Argentina players had. They were able to play. play the margins much better than England players. And I think the Argentine players refereed the game and they controlled the game as the way they wanted it to be played. I know what you mean. And in the first of half an hour, the

feeling I had was, oh no, this is going to be one of those games where we get dragged into, it being incredibly niggly. And the referee, as you say, I think had lost control, or was refereeing very badly. Why he didn't bring his cards out before he did, I have no idea. And I thought, oh,

maybe we'd lose this narrowly. and we're fuming at the refereeing and the way that the Argentinians have played and actually by the end of the game I just thought well England have deserved to lose this game of no real complaints I think they've just been completely outplayed

and outclassed by Argentina in that last sort of 35 minutes well they were definitely outsmarted yeah outplayed nobody can say that England deserved to win that game today not in any part of the game did they did they dominate the play or set the toll they would always be reacting to what Argentine are doing

So, you know, Bellingham wasn't great tonight. Like I said, Kane wasn't great tonight. Tuchel certainly wasn't great. England had the opportunity when they won to kill the game and got the World Cup fighting. But they didn't take it. They panicked. They're froled. We are all, everyone, online, all's, people in the street in the pub.

They're all just talking about the substitutions. Like, I think they're at the turning point and the reason why we're not in the tournament anymore. When he made that first substitution, what was going through your mind? and then subsequently when he, you know, made the Declan Rice and Rees-James substitutions, Ray brought on two more defenders. What were you thinking? Well, I was thinking when he's going to put a forward on?

Simple as that. I mean, obviously you can make changes if you've got injuries and we know that Declan Rice has been carrying an injury or lack of fitness. It was just basically defensive. It was almost like you're inviting Aritintheon to just camp in your half. I just thought that on those occasions when the opposition is camped in your half, you have to have a threat on the counterattack,

and they didn't have one. Anthony Gordon had run himself into the ground. So my thought was when is Rashford coming on? And it never happened until, you know, too late after I didn't see him to score the second goal. Wayne Rooney said after the match that he felt that we'd crumbled, he said it started from the manager and the decisions he made. I find it hard to blame the players personally. I just think they're being told to do a certain thing and it hasn't worked.

For me, all of the blame lies with Thomas Tuchel. I can't argue against that. I do think the players, you know, as I said before, Guards and senior players seem to have a bit more of the ability to do something off the cuff and change a game for themselves rather than be told how to do it by the coach. And England have got big players, you know, Real Madrid, Arsenal, buying Munich players who should know how to do this. But nobody really took a grip of the game.

You know, when Rune was talking like that, I think if Rune had been on the pitch, you know that he would have done something to affect the game. The players out there were just looking around thinking, you know, who's going to take a grip of this? It wasn't Bellinger, it wasn't gained. And that's the disappointment because they've been so given this tournament. but when it really mattered in a game where they really had to deliver, they didn't.

What happens now to Thomas Tugel? I mean, we were talking that it maybe was 15 minutes away from losing his job after the D.R. Congo game. But this one, I mean, again, you speak to pretty much anyone and they're all just pinning the blame on him and saying,

what has he done differently to a Garrette's Southgate team, this tournament, specifically, this game. So what do you think will happen? to him? Will the FA do anything? Will he step down? Well the situation with Tuchel is that we know he signed a new contract in in February March time but in that contract there is a performance related

clause by the FA can reassess it now listen they got to the semi-finals and World Cup so from a performance related basis that is probably if not par that's overachieving but he was hired to be the guy that made the difference in these games it's not the guy that you want to get to win a read a 32 game is a guy that's going to win a semi-final or a final and he hasn't done that so I think he'll be okay. I just think the FA probably won't have the appetite to change it, but Pep Guardillo's available.

And if Petegroredeolo has any indication that he would fancy the England job, then the FA would be crazy not to go after him. So I think Tseql's got to be careful. Imagine that. I am imagining that. That's the first thing to cheer me up in about 15 hours. There was a little incident. I don't know if you've seen this, where it was,

Feisty is probably the kindest way of putting it in that first half. And at some point, I don't know exactly where it was. I've just seen some people talking about it on social media. Drew Bellingham has had a kind of an exchange with Messi. And I think he said some things. I read somewhere as like, he ended it by saying, and you know, you were never as good as Ronaldo. And it's interesting because it probably doesn't make a difference.

But I have heard from other players in the past that the last thing you want to do is Ryle Messy. see up. Yeah. I've seen that clip and I've seen Messi's face and it's almost like there's a moment where he says right, you've done it now and I think it was an element of inexperience on Bellingham's part. Bellingham's a great player, but he does some stupid things at times.

You know, some of the comments he makes, I think he just needs to wind it in a little bit sometimes and I don't buy all this whereby you take that away, you take away the player. I don't buy that. I think sometimes you just got to be a bit more sensible and you don't go like Leel O'Messie until you can go to in the tunnel after the game, but

don't do it while the game's still live. That's crazy. And I guess, you know, at some level, like that, the cross that Messi puts in for the winner, it's just perfect. It drops between our two defenders, and it is absolutely perfect, and it's an easy, and he can do that, but then he also has a lot too much time and space in order to pick that. Well, you say it was a perfect cross, it was, but Latara Martens was left on marked in a six-yard box.

I mean, you can debate, whether he's a top class striker who's done really well for Intermilan but an Intermilan striker who scores a lot of goals in Italy is left unmarked in the six hour box to head the ball and so that is on the defenders you can't leave a guy like that on mart

I think we're going to have to let you go Mark because I know that you're in an airport lounge and you're getting kicked out and your flight is also delayed to really to add insult to injury really you probably don't need that so yeah we'll let you go and we'll continue raking over the coals here

bless you Mark cheers Mark Cheers, guys. The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the Global Story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe. We have this ability to export our story,

and a lot of people have bought it. I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well. From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen on BBC.com or web. wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Steve Bratnell. Host of Games Gone, the Steve Bratnell podcast. What's my favourite World Cup moment as a fan?

I have to say Michael Owen, skinning the whole of the Argentina defence, and cracking it in top corner. For the very short space of time, I believe. My favourite World Cup player in history, it won't be popular, but I'm going to say Diego Maradonna. All right, he humbled it.

But the guy was a complete genius. The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds. The football date at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith. Live from L.A. Nico Cantor from CBS joins us now. Nico, are you in a bus? Where are you?

What's going on? I am in a moving vehicle with CBS Sports Galazzo. We've been on an RV for the entire month of the World Cup more at this point. We started out in L.A. and currently we're headed from Atlanta, Georgia, overnight to New Jersey for the final. Just rub it in, mate. Just rub it in. Yeah, yeah. Good novelty, but five weeks in, you must be sick of that RV, you know? I mean, it's all right. It's what you think it might be like being on an RV for five weeks.

You know, you get your rest days. I've actually been able to reset, you know, be at my parents' place in Miami. Home for me right now is New York. So we passed by New York already. So I got to see my wife, got to see my family, my sister, so it was really nice. Okay, well, I'm glad you're staying sane on that RV. Let's talk about Argentina then. When, you know, 60 minutes into the game, England 1-0 up, England up to that point, comfortableish in a not very comfortable game because of the way that it was kind of being played, but you never really got the sense that Argentina were panicked or felt that they weren't

going to find a way back in. And we've seen that with Argentina time and time again, haven't we? Yeah, we definitely have, Rick, and especially if you consider the way that England kind of invited Argentina in order to play their game. At the point where Argentina should have been most frightened or most on edge, Tuchel's tactics kind of just opened the door for Argentina to commit this assault onto the English half of the pitch,

especially when you consider that Tuchel set up the team. Yes, they defend, but then didn't really give them. the team outlets. So Argentina really just started to play their game. They started to move the ball and eventually Enso Fernandez scored the most Enso Fernandez goal. How many times have we seen that week and week out in the Premier League? Exactly, Nico. It's not a surprise that he scored that goal. Right. And then he gets the first and I said, they're going to win it. There's enough time to win it. England had really no solution, no plan B after going after the equalizer. And Argentina showed their champion spirit that, you know, despite them not having shown their best

football throughout the entire tournament, they have this thing where they can dig deep. And if you don't dig as deep as Argentina inside of you, you won't be able to win them. The good thing for Argentina is that today, after conceding the first goal, and I would really say just the entire match, was their best match in the entire World Cup. Nico, let's just go back to before the game. How did you see it planning out? That's a good question. I mean, I had back and forth, right?

I knew that Argentina had this in them. That was without a question. I was more concerned about the football. There's a lot of Argentines that were happy that Argentina got to the semifinal, that it was going to be against England and whatnot. But one thing is the emotional side of things, of course, considering the history between Argentina and England,

but you have to look at it from an analytical perspective, right? The football that Argentina has been showing hasn't been great up until today. And a lot of blame with you. being put on Leonel Scaloni, the manager, crazy to think that Argentina had arrived having won every single game up until the semifinal, right? So yes, there were questions, but Argentina was winning, and there were a couple of patterns that Echcaloni was getting caught up into, right?

Repeating the same 11, making late subs. The subs weren't really affecting the game, and today was everything, but he changed the starting 11 and it worked. He changed the subs and it worked. He gave Argentina a different layer that they didn't have. And it served for Argentina to turn this game around when the pressure was most on. Yeah, I completely agree. And I'd been saying to people, I genuinely, from everything I'd seen in this tournament,

I felt that England were, not that England had played their best, but I thought England were a better team than Argentina. I thought Argentina had really labored to a lot of those victories, relied on magic from from Messi and I just didn't honestly just didn't really rate them and then in that you know last half an hour they were brilliant and I know that England invited them on but they were superb and you can't you know they just they were able to elevate whilst England were completely unable to yeah Rick I think you also need to give credit to the to the opening half of Argentina I know that not much happened but it was a very

Argentine performance I know that yes it was Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I see it was. But that tires out an opponent. You need to be mentally, physically, in the match for 90 minutes to be able to put up with an Argentina, right? I saw some English outlet saying the 31 dirty tricks that Argentina played the dark arts, but that's football as well. And Argentina from the very get-go, from the very get-go, said, we're going to set the tone. And they got away with a couple of out.

And so Fernandez should have been booked much earlier. That elbow. First the elbow and then the foul on Jude Bellingham. But when you get into this game with Argentina that England didn't get into, where I think here are the differences about playing with Argentina. Remember the foul. Jude Bellingham is headed towards goal. He passes by one, two.

Enso Fernandez brings him down. Not a single England player swarmed the referee. They just kind of accepted it. And then moments later, Messi gets brought down by Elliot Anderson. And there are a pack of wolves around the referee. Those are the details. Like, Argentina works the referees. They force decisions to go into their favor because they play so tough, so rough, so difficult.

They elevate that threshold. And you as well need to elevate that threshold. Those small details, you can't let them slip by. And to a certain degree, I felt like the game that Argentina wanted to be played to chip away at England because they knew if they let them get into a flow, the game was over. because I think England overall had better quality. And eventually England got their goal, but Argentina just kept at it. Argentina had four fouls, or committed four fouls,

joint most by a side in the opening 10 minutes of a game at this World Cup. Honestly, it felt like more. I do, I get all of that stuff. I wonder if the referee unwittingly played a part just by not being strong enough. I really struggled to understand. understand why there weren't cards out. It just seemed bizarre to me. Yeah, Rick, I do agree with you.

And that's the thing with Argentina, that they test the patience of referees. That first yellow card is very key for a referee in a match like this, because it sets the tone to how you have to ref the whole game. And given the fact that this World Cup has kind of been a World Cup of allowing teams to play to get physical.

And Ismail Elfath, the American referee, seemed like he wanted to let that happen. Argentina tested his patience from the get, and it put him in a couple tricky situations where perhaps maybe that tackle against Elliot Anderson, he should have given a yellow. Maybe that tackle against Jude Bellingham, again from Enza Fernandez, he should have given a yellow,

to kind of bring down the temperature. Who knows if the result would have been the same, who knows of the result would have been different. At the end, Argentina pushes, you as an opponent, as the referee, they push themselves to the limit. And that's kind of become the onus of this team that they're modus operandi. And it's very Argentine. And that's why fans, Argentina fans love it because they feel represented by the football that this team plays when they're playing good football. Nicco, I don't want to be facetious here. And I get what you're

saying and the fans will like that. But are you happy that that happens? that they are using dark arts and not, I'd say, playing football in order to try and win a game. Like, football is about football and, you know, the ball on the ground, and you've got Messi who's like one of the best footballers that the world has ever seen, and you should be just producing this incredible football. Are you happy as a fan that actually you use quite, I'd say, underhand tactics to try and win? Because that first 10 minutes was a little bit of like, what are you doing? Like, this is...

It was horrible. This is less of a football match and more of a... I say MMA fight. I love people in the comments be like, you've never seen an MMA fight, Mike. But as in, it just didn't seem like they were playing football. And are you happy with that?

Lloyd, Argentina is in the final of the World Cup. That's, I'm great. And I'm not, you know, I'm not jealous at any way, shape, or form. But are you happy? Are you happy that that's the way that they had to play in order to get to the final? Lloyd, it's a compliment that you saw Argentina's game and that they played like that.

tell that to South American. And I think here's the cultural divide between England and South America. You play that game a hundred times Argentina's going to come out of the gates a hundred times like that. It's a cultural element. These kids that had to come up from the slums, from social institutions that never respected them, you learn to get by with anything you can get. And especially in a match with the backdrop, with everything that's happened. And you're in history between Argentina and England, football-wise and beyond. In Spanish, you say, you want to set the pitch. And Argentina set the stage for everything that was to come.

I know that perhaps Lloyd will never agree. But in Argentina, just like Paraguay against France, Paraguay made France play Copa Libertadores football. That's not easy to do. Paraguay are clearly the inferior team. And when you say they play dirty, Paraguines are going to be like, yeah, we play dirty. That is us.

It's a badge of honor. And sometimes that's football. I know people don't like Athletico Madrid and Cholo Simeone it to a certain degree. It's all valid as long as the referee is there to impart justice. And perhaps our question is about the referee today. But there was one team that got through playing their game. And in a very Argentine style with both dark arts, but with incredible football in the second half. Well, that's the other element, isn't it?

that Linole Messi, having been relatively quiet, I think, for the first hour, just dominated and found so much space and was gliding past people and picking passes and no one knows what to say about him anymore. Like he's a 39-year-old who is bossing a World Cup semi-final against the best players in England and one of the best England teams we've produced in sort of recent times. It's staggering. Yeah, it really is. And talk about about the physicality of the match, right? 39 years old. So many people had said that Messi wouldn't be ready for the Premier League because it's too physical and he was out there clashing shoulder to shoulder receiving fouls, dribbling past opponents, setting up plays.

And for the Argentine people, just because of what this match represented, you go back to 86, Maradona scored two goals against England. Today, Messi produced two assists. When the pressure was most on, he demanded the ball. He helped Argentina. He gave Argentina rhythm, flow, and he ended up being a massive difference maker. The last goal is an assist with his right foot. It's a perfect cross to Lautero Martinez. And as if Messi's legacy needed one more badge of honor to grow even greater, at least for the Argentine people,

he just defeated England than a semi-final of the World Cup to get Argentina to back-to-back World Cup finals and his third. Thanks for the reminder, Nico. Yeah. And lying in weight for that Argentina team are Spain. And Spain, I think, pose an entirely different problem to England. Insofar as, in everything we've just said, Argentina play with emotion and they harness emotion

and they work on the emotions of their opponent. And Spain, I think, are much more, they play with their head. And they're really, like, they're such a slick, operations such a slick football team and I wonder how effective the Argentina approach of trying to drag them into that kind of Copa Libertadores style of match will be like can they do that to this Spain team yeah on the surface it is head versus heart right meeting up in a world cup final the thing is that Argentina for a really long time had head and heart right just that we haven't seen it at full display the head side of

things like Argentina played extraordinarily in the 2022 Qatar World Cup and they won a couple of Copa Americas also playing very good football. This has been the one where Argentina has been furthest from their ideal version, right? Spain loves to keep the ball. I think that'll be a massive problem for Argentina, that dispute to keep possession. I think Spain keep with more intent. Perhaps they're more persistent because they do have the ball a little bit more. So I wonder if Argentina can still play to that heart, but also keep on growing their game, because today from a collective standpoint, was a massive game forward. And I have no doubt that Argentina, to try to break Spain's rhythm, are going to want to make the match chippy just like they did today, because I think

toe-for-toe collectively, Spain are a better team. But if you can keep on breaking the rhythm, perhaps you have a chance. And Lloyd, I see you laughing. At the end of the day, you know, it's cultural and it's different. But if Argentina does the game that they play, playing like this, they might be back-to-back world champions. The reason why I was laughing, because it's interesting you saying they'll basically implement the same tools they did against Spain. And me just thinking that Lana Messi today basically just spent the whole time on that right-hand side. And the battle, if they do start him and keep him on that right-hand side, him and Koukeru, Oh, they could have a good time.

Because if they get chippy with him, he loves a yellow that bloke. He's a fiery, hot-headed man. So I was just laughing going, crikey, I'm just thinking about who he's going to team up with. Like, Messi versus Kukurea. Because Kukorea is the one player on the Spain team who really enjoys that kind of needle and like they're getting stuck in. He loves it. Yeah, like I think he'll be. If someone will be at the ref, it'll be Kukorea.

Okay, so I think they'll meet their match. We get another Couti Romero against Cucurea, right? And Cucurea just has that hair that it's like a hook on a fishing rod, that anybody's just there ready to pull it. So I'll see how Spain manages his own emotions. Well, the referee will probably let it go. The referee will probably let it go. Let's be honest.

Probably. Nico, we're going to let you go. Nice speaking to you, mate. Safe travels to New York. Yes. You're not driving as you're talking to us, are you? Should have checked out at the start. Okay, good, that's good.

I'm a good mostly asker, but not that good. Yeah. Isn't it away, man, mate? It's driverless, all the way to New York. Cheers, Nico. Take care. Cheers, mate. Thanks, gentlemen.

So this is actually our last day here at the King's Head. Last day in Los Angeles. We're off to New York. Oh, I've got that third place playoff. That's in Atlanta. Yeah, but we've got to go. No. We'll have to talk about it.

I think it's in Miami. It's in Miami. It's literally the same thing. Literally who gives a . I don't even think the players do. In fact, I know that they don't. Yeah, so maybe I'd be a bit of fun to see how many goals in Bapé scores. But it is strange to be leaving and particularly strange to be leaving sort of under a bit of a cloud, not us personally.

Although, you know. And it has been really good. good. It's going to be weird not living together. I've asked for conjoining rooms. And I'll make sure that I've got the little key so I can just... Hey! Hello, there's Rick in his towel again. Oh, Rick's clipping his toenails again.

Oh, Rick's not unloading the dishwasher again. Oh, Rick's left the peanut butter out with the lid off. No, I've never done that. And I have unloaded the dishwasher once. Look at producer Lizzie. Oh, sorry, also. Can we just mention what producer Lizzie did when we got back from the game? Oh, God. How have we not mentioned this before?

Yeah, this was actually... This is unexcusable, and this has to stay in the podcast. This is, I think, clinically insane. I get home. Yeah. Producer Lizzie says she's done her washing. The only thing that she appears to have washed is her Argentina shirt, and it's just hanging proudly in the middle of our little back courtyard.

With Messi on the back. But also, the M.E. has gone off. So it just says, like a snake. I was like, why would you have just sticking? It's madness. Absolute madness. You're saying it was a last chance to do it. Can I just say, just following on from the Wayne Rooney interview that we did yesterday.

He hasn't been in touch and said he wants to go to a musical with you, has he? No, I said, oh, actually, you know, there might not be that many footballers that will go to musical. So, you know, if you want to come to watch a, you know, a musical, I'll go with you. I got this from a mate, Pat Turpin, lovely, lovely, lad. I'm going to pay this here now. Uncle. Hello, mate. I hope you well.

A bit of a random one from me, although it's not actually that random because it was what you were talking about on your podcast. But when I was 18 years old, I went to visit my cousin, who was at Manchester University Uni, and we went to see Jerry Springer the Opera together

and sat behind us in the theatre where Rio Ferdinand, Johnny Evans and John O'Shea. Just wanted to share that in case in case you needed to call them to go and watch a show. Cheers. Loving the work. You said,

Bernardin's not going to a musical. I couldn't have been more wrong. It turns out. He loves Jerry Springer the musical. Well, we don't know that. We just know that he went. He went, yeah. But we get a message to him and ask him what he thought.

That's lovely stuff from Pat to. Perpin. Well, thank you, Pat. We have actually had some lovely messages through, and I thought, I'll just read. Everyone pipe down, trying to do a podcast. Yeah, a few...

The wheels have come off here. I might have a fight. I'm going to have a fight in the street with someone. But the wheels have come off. What do you say to me? The wheels have come off the hog. Don't call me the hog. Right, these messages are actually quite nice.

Becky and Sheffield says, Woodrick and Lloyd agree to continue in this podcast when the World Cup is over. They don't even need to talk about football. I've enjoyed the track. travel stories more than the sports and I don't know what I'll do when the tournament stops. I think we need a little bit of time apart and then we'll consider our options. Absolutely.

And then M in Lincolnshire, Hello Rick and Lloyd. Being half English and half Norwegian, it's been quite a World Cup to watch for me, I'll bet. I will, however, need your take on Erling Harlan stuffed raccoon that he was spotted getting out of the plane with. My take is brilliant. Yeah. Just what a great guy. Yeah.

You can't dislike him. I think he's become maybe the most, one of the most popular. footballers on social media now everyone's falling in love with him. He's most likable, isn't it? He's great. I just love the way he calls out pundits. He has a little bit of fun. He's buying a stuffed raccoon from like some random

and he got a big bottle of vodka as well was the other thing he had. I just think this guy is basic legend. He's loving life. He is. And then Kiki says, hey Rick and Lloyd just want to say a massive, huge thank you for your joyful, funny

and actually insightful, Brackets who knew. You're welcome. Well, we did. I don't think that's Dorritz, World Cup coverage. We've had quite a lot of guests. My four kids and I have really needed it.

Our darling family dog Billy, who loved the World Cup. Oh, I hadn't read this before. Got very ill, very suddenly 10 days ago, and we had to let him go. Oh, God. Kiki, I'm so sorry. Oh, no.

This might send us over the edge today, Kiki. This is lastly I need to hear about Billy. But then, she goes on to say, but your pods have provided such cheer and fun for all of us, and that includes two grunting teams. so that's quite an achievement. Thanks both so much.

Love to you all. Don't go breaking any hogs. The LAPD don't like about. Oh, Kiki. I'm sorry about Billy. Love to you. But I'm glad that we've helped in some way. Yeah.

There will be, unfortunately, no podcast for us tomorrow because we are traveling. Oh, we're paintballing. To go-karting, yeah. Yeah, that's what I meant by traveling. Traveling in go-karts around a circuit. We're arriving in New York. First thing on, well, I've got three things on my list. Go on.

Find table tennis. Because I don't know what we're going to do with that table tennis. Find Julian and actually Chris Sutton. Yeah, he'll be nice. We just spot the cowboy hat. Yeah.

Well, have you met those guys in the flesh? I think I've met Jules once. I haven't met Chris Sutton. And I can that way. You were in for a round. How about you take? A treat. How about you take me, Jules, and Chris Sutton

to one of your awful comedy night? Or a musical. Oh, yeah. If Rooney's around. Are you about? Wayne, yes. And tell, um, tell Ria you're picking him up in the car.

Hey, Rio, off to Jerry Spring in tomorrow. Do you need picking up? And make sure you're subscribed to the Football Daily Feed. We'll be back with you on Saturday morning and some nonsense about push. Oh my God, we're out of the World Cup.

There's this noise that you make. You don't decide to make it. It just comes out. I don't know what that's good either. But everyone makes it the same time. It makes you feel. I don't know how to say it. We know that feeling.

The FIFA World Cup 2026. 1 5 live in BBC Sounds. The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the global story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American. an influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe. We have this ability to export our story and a lot of people have bought it. I feel like the American dream is alive but not well.

From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.