Football Daily - World Cup: What Next For England?

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Steve Crossman is joined by ESPN’s Julien Laurens, Guillem Balague & Nedum Onuoha as they dissect England's semi-final defeat against Argentina. They discuss Tuchel’s tactics and substitutions in the second half, his future as England head coach, and how this could be Harry Kane’s last World Cup in an England shirt.TIMECODES 4’23 - Should Thomas Tuchel remain England Manager? 8’00 - Jules on Tuchel not delivering his promises 14’14 - Should the responsibility be shared between the manager & the players? 15’43 - Should England have sat back when they did? 20’33 - Were the players being told to go for a second goal at 1-0 up? 24’40- Does Tuchel know the players well enough now to succeed? 32’47 - How England were playing like they were down to 10 players 35’50 - Will Tuchel be manager at the Euros? 38’25 - Have we just witnessed Harry Kane’s last World Cup? 44’20 - Can England gain anything from third place play off?

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2.50. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. At the People World Cup 2026, the Football Daily Podcasts with Steve Crosman. Hello there, welcome to the Football Daily podcast in this episode. We'll be speaking to ESPN's Julienne Laurent, Guillain Balagay and Nader Manua, and we'll be dissecting England's World Cup semi-final defeat to Argentina. We'll try and bring you some new stuff because I know we've been talking about it a lot already. we will definitely be getting into Thomas Tuchel's future.

The discussion seems to be very much moving on to that, doesn't it? So we'll talk about that. We'll also talk about Harry Kane and whether or not this is his last World Cup in an England shirt certainly feels like it. Nadom, because the other two care less than us, let's be honest about England going out of a World Cup. How are you doing? How are you feeling?

We've had a bit of time. You're more reflective yet? Are you angry? Where are you at? No, to be honest, I'm very calm with these things anyway. I like to be more reflective because, you know, some of the ups and downs of football, like when you've got the ups, it feels great, but the downs are so, so deep that sometimes it's worth just watching a game, especially if allegedly you're going to be paid to think of it from a more neutral perspective.

So I think by the end of the game, all the emotions, like the first half, I thought England were really competitive and is a really competitive game, and it felt good. It felt like an England-Argentina game where England were a bit more streetwise than we've seen in all the years gone by. and as a consequence, I thought, okay, this could be it. And then England scored and I was like, this is going to be it. But then what happened next? I'm obviously, this isn't a special thought or anything,

but the better team comfortably went through in the end, which is a crazy thing to say. Because that drop off from there being, where they scored, England scored and they were in control. I'm not in control, England scored and they were leading and you could see how they were playing. And now on the sideline, they've got all the subs, it's the 20-something man squad,

They've quit everything you need. Whatever spice you need for this game, they're all available on the sideline, managers there, his experience, he's the difference. Everything should have been great. And then by the end, you're thinking, well, what else did they expect? Because as well as England losing 2-1,

McCarster's hit the post twice. Pickford's making saves. You know, it was very much just a case of watching England just suffer for the end. And, yeah, there's a disappointment, but it feels like the right team went through, unfortunately, for England side. I think that's so true, Guillem,

because normally in a situation like this, we might sort of need you and Jules especially because we would sort of throw out the odd like, oh, can you believe that red card decision, et cetera, et cetera? But there is a bottom line there, isn't there? And Nadim just gave us it. Yes, there's also the impression as Nathan had and all of you, that you're very, very close.

You're very, very close. And this is not just bad luck, really, what took it, Argentina away. But certainly to get to that point where you could have beat Argentina and the semifinals of a World Cup. On the back of all the semifinals and all the finals, I would say, if you put all in context,

it's a competitive, successful era, if you like. I'm sure we're going to drill into what's missing, not to get there, but there are positives. And nobody wants to hear them now. And a lot of it has to do with, as Nathan was saying, as England were not scared of the kind of approach that you were to speculate, from Argentina, pushing the limit of the legality of the things that were doing, unsettling players.

I saw Bellingham doing that with Messi, wrong person to do it with. But it is part of the game. And there was a street-wideness, using again Natham's word, that it was pleasing to see. So that's partly why nothing happened in the first half, because they were looking at eye-to-eye, like two lions just about to jump, but nobody did. And then there were a lot of decisions that have been taken and I'll jump to the end and as a consequence

England seems to have found one corporate, one to blame, the person to blame. And it's like we've been here before in a lot of what has happened. It all sounds so familiar. Right. Let's start with Thomas Tuchel. We'll have this discussion in any order, looking at what he did or didn't do

and talking about his future, Adam, which has been the big topic of conversation and whether or not he should still be England manager going forward. Yeah. So there's somebody on this panel that has a strong view on this. It's not necessarily me. But if you are patient, that person that's laughing will tell you more. But I think the context that we need to understand here is like who is Thomas Tuchel and

who is Thomas Tuchel to English football. He's somebody that was brought in to try and take the team to the next level. Nobody was hiding that. And I think it's probably the first time in most of our lifetimes that that's ever been spoken about in that manner. They said Garasafke is really good at building this energy, this rapport, these relationships, making the players feel good, but they fall in at the last hurdle. We need someone with more edge.

Somebody that's not scared to make these bigger decisions and so on and so forth. So then when they go out and I listen to him, say, oh, you know, there was this problem, that problem, so on and so forth. And then John's like, well, could you've done anything different way? I'm not sure. You know, we were tired. You know, it was this. It was that.

for me personally it's incredibly disappointing because he's supposed to help the nation and those players to sort of maximize their potential and in my opinion they have not done that essentially for the last few tournaments because you could argue that England have been the favourite for basically every game Thomas Tucholas had except for this last one

and even, no, I tell you lie, he was a favourite in this game as well, he was a favourite in this game and when you look at the moments that are out there I think the consensus from the general public is that he went too defensive. He talks about how Argentina were gaining control, gaining momentum. They're putting great balls into the box.

And what makes me feel like really sick is when he said, and there was nothing we could do about that. Like, you are the coach of this team, and this workup is so unique because essentially you have timeouts. Just before the hydration break or whatever in the 68th minute, Jordan Pirkeford has made a save and he looks to the referee, says, we need a drink, we need a drink,

can we have a drink? because he knows the importance of that moment. You've got three or four minutes, which is never the case. Like, this is the stuff, sorry, I'm on a bit of a rant here. Do it. But this is a type of stuff that, like, when a goalkeeper would go down during the game and people are furious with it in, like, the domestic league, no, this isn't right.

They're trying to find a way to get out of this situation. Lo and behold, that team comes out and there's a change in terms of how they're going to play for the better. So for me, Thomas 2, equal to see all the stuff that was essentially going wrong in this game, because we can talk about the wider context and so on, but see what's going wrong in the way. this game. And to almost be defeatist to say, well, yeah, they're getting good crosses in.

They're getting good momentum. So let's just sit back and absorb it and see what can happen. I think for me, a stronger manager and stronger leaders, in my opinion. I want to say leader, I mean, people who do lead from the very front find ways to impact the game to try and help the momentum swing back in England's favour. And I don't think it could be a case of going back 100%. But what is the message when the manager says we're going to a back five? What is the message when that back five

Also has Harry Kane five yards in front of them What's the message when the team is like Well we're just gonna kick it long What is the message when It's accepted by the manager on the sideline Who was brought in and paid to be the difference I think Jules will tell you this start I think from after Gordon scored the goal

So it went to one It was 12% possession Yep That is goal kicks free kicks throwings That's what that is Since when has that ever been acceptable not just from, say, Tukin at this moment, but from any manager in the last four of a World Cup.

If this was Paraguay, I would say it's too little. So what we're going to say about on England side that features some of the best players that this nation has ever seen? But you don't have a strong opinion. No, I don't know. That was brilliant. That was absolutely brilliant.

Go on then, Jones. I don't know what's more BS, if it's the interview with John or actually what we saw on the page. But this is Thomas Tuchel for you. It's never his fault. It's never on me. It's never me.

I would never say I could have done better I could have done this it's like I'm not sure you know but then the players while the players invited the pressure the players could not stop the momentum the players this and the players are

and the players were tired which by the way Kelly Summers asked Harry Ken if maybe they were tired and he said no I don't think so and yet Hurricane also said where there's a piece missing and we thought that piece was going to beat Thomas Tuhul because he's a great tactician

because you won the championship with Chelsea because it's this because it's that and to be fair I was lied to. I was lied to because I heard, oh, we're going to play with intensity, we're going to do this. Now that I'm in charge of England,

it's going to be great, and it's going to be permutations and movement and this and that. And I've seen nothing in this war cup, nothing at all of what Thomas Tuchel said when he took over. And for me, I would not even keep him. I said that, and that's what Adam was referring to. Why, so yesterday it was scandalous. I'm sorry, the last half hour of that game was scandalous.

point of view, when you also have that break that Nathan mentioned, and you could have changed things. How many times in this World Cup have we seen those hydration breaks change the momentum of a game completely, whether it's in the first half or in the second half, because it breaks the game up to start with. And then those managers have three to four minutes to actually say, hey, why are you doing? Why are you so deep? Because right now, Thomas Toholy is making us believe that he didn't ask the players to be so deep. It's that they do it themselves. Okay, fair enough. but you've had 13 minutes already after the golden goal until the break where you saw what was happening and you could have changed everything and you didn't

and for me that's probably the most damning thing because we've seen managers before before those breaks you can shout on the touchline it's a big stadium players don't hear you or they don't want to hear you and you probably feel that there was not much you could have done not with a break half or through that second half this is not true he could have said okay i'm not happy about what i've just seen we have to go back to that medium blog I'm going to bring Watkinson and Rashford and Saka or whoever to regain that momentum, regain the control. Or certainly, if he could not do that, at least not invite the pressure like they did.

And for me, everything he did during that game was an embarrassment. Still, that tackle from Jed Spence was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Better than what Elliot Anderson did on the end of goal. Guillaume, I suspect you might be more slightly more nuanced in your take. I'm just reading your face. He's older, he's wiser. You know, that's why we have him on the show too.

This is the usual narrative. This is the, we heard all this for the last 30 years. It's a complex entity, a football team and a football match. But we tend to, especially the 24 hours after the game, to just find one person to blame. That's what's happened. Sometimes it's two, depending who misses penalties. but for me is a much more complex situation.

And I don't have all the answers, but I'm going to paint to you a different picture. I think Tujo was actually biting his tongue a little bit, even though quite clearly he was criticizing the players. He could have thrown them under the bus. Because what happened after the game is after the goal, the England goal, this is a good exercise to actually go back and watch the last half an hour. Is that the manager asked the players,

to keep pushing up. And you know what? They did it. They pushed up. In two occasions, when they were trying to put pressure, especially in Spence side, they didn't do it properly

and they found the opportunity to either put crosses or put a shootout and both blocked, but still, you start thinking 25 minutes before the end of the semi-finals World Cup. And what I saw was a team dropping deep.

Everybody just makes, making sure that there were no mistakes, that as he had happened against Mexico, and the team was praised for it, that nothing would happen, that they could have dealt with the crosses. Now, the manager at that point, of course, he's got two options during the hydration break and the substitutions to send a message. But I've got the impression that the manager realized that what the team was asking him to do, and sometimes managers have to react to that, to the dynamic of the team and the dynamic of the moment and of the game.

The team was asking them to be protected even more. It's easy on hindsight for players to say, oh, but you should have put Rashford on. If you put Rashford on, on the left-hand side for Gordon, is he going to be ready to also defend Messi? Is he? He may be. He may not be.

Well, if he's going to be mostly with an Argentina that have taken over the ball, and as you had seen in other games like this, we're going to put everything on the table to turn things around. If he's going to be defending all the time the last 20, 25 minutes, shouldn't you put a defender? What would you be defending for the whole 25 minutes? Well, if you listen to what I'm saying,

maybe the team was asking for that. Maybe the centre forward was defending on the edge of the box instead of being on the halfway line to receive balls to actually release that pressure. There was not that opportunity. Maybe the mistake was not to have that opportunity, to have Olly Watkins there, for instance. So what I'm saying is I know, and I'm hearing

and I'm seeing that, you know, we can sort this out by blaming somebody and take it from there and then you can talk about his future. But how about if the players have got certain responsibilities to what happens on the pitch. Why doesn't he know why they were so passive? Why doesn't he know?

Because he was not on the pitch, because he was not the guy that actually had to put pressure and wasn't doing it. Because he was told to do it, but he wasn't doing it. So I just wonder if we have to share responsibility and then go deeper

and say, why has he happened? The same thing, whatever manager, is it to do, perhaps, with players feeling at that point 20 minutes to go? go to the end of, you know, Minard 85 and you're winning, whatever it is. Other players thinking, I'm not going to be caught on a mistake here.

I'm not going to be the one in the front cover. Would it be a little bit of that? Or if it's not that, would it be that they haven't got this idea of being brave in the heads? It's not in the DNA. It hasn't been long enough for Tugel to put that into the heads and it needs longer to actually do that. And I do believe, we'll see, but I do believe that it's the end of an era for many of these players, because in the euros is going to be a lot of changes. And I think the profile, I think Chuhler has been surprised by the players, in the highest

of one, the stakeholders are the highest. He's been surprised by them. And perhaps he will make decisions that have to do with what, as Jules is saying, more what he wanted to do because quite clearly he cannot do it in a World Cup anyway, but he can come closer to it if he actually chooses his players a little bit braver. So, Guillem, the point that you make, like when I think about this situation, like this is a privilege for me to say, there's like a micro point and a micro point here. And I think the point you're making about the wider context of England, I think is a valid one. But the micro is about this particular game.

Now, I don't know if anybody here is listening to Mark Gehue speak after the game. This is one of the defenders that played in the game. And when he's been interviewed, one of the first things he said is we should have carried on. You said for some reason, when we should have carried on pushing, when we took the lead, for some reason, people thought we just wanted to defend. And that's coming from a defender And the reason I mentioned this is contextually defending itself at its best starts from front to back,

not back to front. If your attackers are on the front foot, it means the midfielders are on the front foot, it means the defenders are on the front foot. To give your country credit, the day before when Spain played, Mbapé was offside maybe five or six times. That's because there was more pressure coming from the forwards,

the midfielers and the back line. So whereas a lot of people have this sort of like Inseqe's pay, So it makes them drop off. Instead, because the whole team is forward, everybody goes forward for England. And Mark Gehys saying this as a defender. So if he was the one that was decided, I just want to drop, I just want to drop, he would not have used those words.

But very quickly as a defender to put like real life experience into this, the amount of times I've been playing in the game and I'll see a striker say, guys, come up, come up, why you're so deep, come up? Was because they're not putting pressure on the ball, but make it worse now from an England perspective. where was Harry Kane in that second half? Where was he playing? Like he's choosing to defend,

but where is he defending from? The moment everybody retracts into this position that very much sets the tone. I think there is something to be said about defending. But for me, especially at this level where we're talking about the best four teams in the world and I understand it's easy for me to say watching from the TV screen,

Spain in their first game and even Argentina after they took the lead, they did not let any defenders for France, nor England breathe when they had possession because they were defending so on as a consequence. But neither because... Everyone thinks the same. Everybody is a leader.

Everybody is responsible for what they have to do on the pitch. Everybody is solitary to whatever else is struggling with and they can help with everybody. And they've been chosen because of that. But mostly, they all have the same idea. And that is a 30-year job. So you've got that advantage. That's fair.

That's completely fair. But that kind of leans into my point just a little bit because for as much as Spain have the advantage with their system that they had and De La Fuente coming through the youth system and so on. And like the Spanish culture as such within say youth football, men's women's,

whatever you want to have it. For me, Thomas Tuchel on the sideline, if he sees his team start to do something and he doesn't like change it, some people wanted to praise him for making changes at the half-time in the game against Norway, even though I think those changes were like poor. then you reverse them.

Well, sense that something is going wrong here, my opinion again, just my opinion, if your number nine is playing the same depth as your number six in your midfield in a game where you need to at some point maintain possession at least to take a little bit of thing out of the game, then change the nine for somebody else because somebody can go into that midfield

who is a midfielder. That's my take on that. Looking up the field for the defenders, they'll get the ball, they'll look up, and it's really basic, like super basic football, but they want an outball, but you can't really have it because the nine

another attack is the right next to you like the players can demand that those players go higher but the manager can make the call about what the right decision is.

For me, again, this is just for me as soon as England starts sagging all the way back with Kane going to where he was going that's one of the reasons why the possession was so low

and the moment that possession gets so low you get a chance to see the best of any side and now you've got a chance to see the best of Messienzo Fernandez Alexis McAllister all these guys

and I would say if Kane wasn't called Harry Kane and the performance was gone the way it was going from your number nine who's not on there to be a defender, I think the change would have been made but instead they persisted and I think that played into Argentina's hands and the signaling was, let's just defend

and it's okay that Harry can stay in the 18-yard box because you can head it and kick it really far and I'm not into that. The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the global story podcast from the BBC we're telling surprising tales of a American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe. We have this ability to export our story and a lot of people have bought it.

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Jules, let me bring you in on it then. What I find really interesting is the difference between what we're being told from the dressing room was the message and the actual decisions, specifically the substitutions that Thomas Tuchel made. And whether there was maybe a bit of a difference between those two things. We can tell from what everybody has said that the plan was at 1-0, keep going, try and get another goal. But for the players on the pitch, was that necessarily being communicated to them by way of the decisions that the manager was making? Or was he saying one thing and doing something slightly different with his decisions? I mean, I think Adam said it really well, the message that to Horsen with the substitutions.

But even, again, even in that break that we mentioned, we'd already seen after the golden goal for 12, 13, 14 minutes before. the dream breaks, that England where I decided to just retract completely and gave up the ball and refused to play and just invited the pressure. So Tuchol saw all of that. And yet, I think the Gordon

Konza substitution has to be one of the worst ever, probably on the same page as the rise for burn substitutions, again, because you'll send the wrong message. And Tuchel can say anything he wants, more and more players now, and there's more and more reports because players are talking, agents talking,

family members are talking. And players were surprised. Player was surprised by Tohull, by his message, by what he said in that break, by what he was doing, by his body language on touchline. And I was super disappointed because I love Thomas Tuchol. We go back a long way. He was obviously the PhD coach. I told this story many times, but I was his lucky charm at Chelsea.

Every time I was there, he never lost. He kept saying to me, please come to the next home game. Please come to the next game. So we have a great relationship, but I was super disappointed by the fact that he just almost just gave up on this team. It felt to me that he just dissociated himself from that team on the pitch. And every time the camera was on him, on the touchline,

he was looking at his shoes, walking up and down, and I never saw him shouting anything. And Scaloni is obviously a very different personality, or others even. But it didn't look like Thomas Tuchel was saying anything to his players, where you could see that they just needed more guidance,

and that never came. And I think maybe, and Giam is probably right, I think there's a psychology problem in this team. And I go back to that, I thought great quote from Hurricane to Kelly Summers on BBC TV after the game saying like there's a piece missing. And I don't do jigsos. I don't know if it's a big piece, a small piece, a corner.

I don't know what it is. But there's clearly something missing. And the different managers now with different generations, whether it's a leadership, whether it's mentally, I don't know what it is, but there's clearly something missing. Nedom, let me throw this to you then. So is it possible that part of, because obviously a big part of the conversation is the reason Tuchel was brought in is to succeed in these moments and he failed in this moment. And that's obviously a completely legitimate argument to make.

What I'm wondering is whether or not there is something in the idea that because this is really the first time he has seen his players. in this position, maybe it's unfair just to kind of say, oh, well, he hasn't managed to do the thing he said he could do. And what we've seen a lot is the resurface of that quote that he said about Garra Southgate's England team just after he'd got the job, Thomas Tuchel had got the job, and he said something along the lines of, you know, there was more kind of fear of losing than enjoyment at the prospect of winning. Maybe that is to do with the team and he just wasn't able to change it as opposed to the idea

that here's this guy who should have been able to do it and oh look he couldn't therefore he's got to go. The got to go part I don't really know about that in general but I think you've been very very charitable there I think you've been super super charitable

because ultimately he's been in that job for two years now and he knows those players as well as you can know those players in such a short period of time but also when it comes down to this tournament this is something he has spent two years essentially preparing for. And the amount of money that say the England national team will invest into absolutely

everything, the access that's available and so on. And for it to go out in the way that it did, like, as I say, how do you simulate this though? How in any of that threat can you simulate that situation? That's the thing. How does anyone? How does anyone? I think for me, like he's obviously been a very, very successful, like, club manager

and there's certain traits which he has in there, which he could have brought into this tournament because he could, for example, be like a terrible man manager, yeah, like the worst in all of the world, but tactically could be a genius. And that is what he felt like they needed yesterday. You know, he could be a manager. There's some managers who were super nice. Like, some people were being very critical of Southgate saying he was scared to make the right decision in the right moment. And I thought personally, yesterday, like, Tuchel needed to be brave enough to make stronger decisions the moment he could see things going the other way. And that is essentially, as I say, what he's been

brought in here for? Because in two years time, I'll be. honest with you for the next year olds in England they're playing or whatever like there's a good chance Italy might be better the Netherlands might be better France might be better Spain could continue improving Germany might be better so this was actually a really sweet

position to be in for England relatively speaking because even as we say through all the years that we've watched England England were favourites for every game they've played into this World Cup so far and that meant that if they would have managed to continue their role as favourites they'd be in a World Cup final and instead like I say hearing them after the game

He was talking about the issues of Declan Rice. Okay, cool. Were any midfielders on the bench that could have maybe had some sort of a kick about, maybe, maybe, or perhaps he was there as a mascot, you know? There were other solutions that were available, which he didn't want to bring. And I thought, I thought he was going to be the manager who was going to be brave than the other. Because, again, through all of us watching football, we've seen coaches who will make changes after 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 50 minutes,

bring someone on, take somebody off, do whatever you need to do to put the game in a more positive light for the side. And I thought that's who he was going to be. But instead, he almost seems accepting of it. And he talks about the problems. But then there's not really brought the solutions. And just because he doesn't know all those players,

like us ourselves as sort of like relative fans of football in England, how is it that everybody has seen the same thing in the same game? Think how rare that is, Crossie. Yeah, I know you mean. Yeah. Everyone's like, he's gone to a back five. It cannot. Like sometimes it's the nuance of something.

you know what I mean the role of the false night the inverted fallback and instead everyone's like hmm it appears to be a back five and a couple of things that are so highlighted to me I know games aren't really having this but there's a point where Jude Bellingham's running down the left wing against three Argentinians

and everyone's hoping that he can win a throw in England are in the pits of hell when that's happening and then worse still all right it's added time can they get a goal Ezri Konzer who nobody knew had a long throw is now slinging balls into the box with Dan Byrne and Ivan Tony like this there's no way I thought England's

story arc in this tournament, we'd finish with them being so desperate that all they're going to try and do is kick it long, win a flicker and hope that something magic happens. I think they're better than that. And I think personally, two calls and deserve them in this tournament. Okay.

Giam, I think about, oh, no, go on, Jules. Sorry. No, just quickly, very quickly before Giam speak. Think about those two years under two hole. What would stand up for you? I mean, I'll answer it for you, crossing.

Cheers. Yesterday's embarrassment. No, no, but then you can tell me if I'm right. Really, two years. Qualifiers don't count because Guillaem, Nadem, you and I could have coached England and they would have won every single game in those qualifiers. It's the fight with Bellingham, calling Bellingham repulsive, the omission of players like Trent, Palmer, Foden.

I'm not saying that if they've been there, things would have been different. I'm just saying that the headlines in those two years of Thomas Tuchhol, the biggest headlines, because again, qualifiers don't count. England are, you know, the England are England. And so what you would remember of those last two years, the two years of Thomas Tuchhol in this job that he was appointed for winning the worker was, look at the players that he didn't bring in and the controversy that created. The whole Bellingham, I don't even know what to call it, saga, incidents, everything,

from the repulsiveness to even after the, you know, the nowhere. With that when we don't give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of choice of words, maybe. I know we don't want to kind of go back. You're so charitable. You're so charitible. Well, I'm sort of partially playing devil's advocate as well, I think. I take your point, Jules. What I would say is beating Mexico and the Azteca was massive.

So I think that is a headline. That is a headline of his... And the fourth semi-final of a World Cup ever is massive. Yeah. Yeah. And actually... You'll be Mexico and Norway. Obviously, obviously a minute 85 is won in lap. And the end, it all collapses.

We're trying to find out what it collapses. but they were not that far. And if it had been to penalties or whatever, it may have been a different story and a lot of what we're hearing, we wouldn't be hearing. I think this is a consequence. But that's football, isn't it, PM?

Yeah, it is. You judged on your results, aren't you? No, no, no, absolutely. So I understand it, but I also, this is a different type of conversation in which you will expect to go a little bit deeper and not knee jerk, I think. But in any case,

this story about players coming out saying, oh we were surprised that's a classic that happens in every tournament now we're just going to hear that now that it's been identified who the manager who the culprit is

is going to be a fire and it's going to be burned out secondly I think we have seen in this tournament that there is a lack of alienation or miscommunication or disassociation

between the players or some of the players and the manager. That's quite clear. How you sort that out, I don't know, because Tujel wants to get to winning through football, through doing things, but he cannot do as many things as he wanted, but he still wants,

because he's that kind of coach, wants a process and wants to get to victory that way. It's not saying no to individual moments, of course not. And he's not saying not to attitude and personality and character. Of course not. He absolutely needs that. But he needs the whole lot, because that's what he believes in.

And it feels like in the way Bellinga was talking and perhaps some other conversations that are taking place after the Argentina game that the players are saying, just let us be who we are. Let us just win it by our moment, by our individual highlight. And that has to be found,

like they have to find so common ground that has not been found. So what I'm saying is they are in a process that should be respected, they are in the middle of it. And I insist on this idea. A lot of what happened from the minor 85 has to do with Tuchel, to put five at the back and not stop the gaps

where Julian Alvarez and Messi act on. When you got so many players there, what Anderson actually should be just looking after any answer shot because that's what it does and instead it was too deep. Who'd you blame that to?

Would it be... They send sending the wrong message with the substitutions as has become clear as we're saying. Or would also be the players should have acted better at a time of tension. Maybe these are not the players that have got the leadership, the courage or the right decision making at the tension time. So I would just spread responsibility around. Yeah, I agree. Like it is a full spread because like I said, I've mentioned some players. I've mentioned the manager.

and it's very tough to sort of find change sometimes if it's not being led by, say essentially the most influential people because everybody has a role to play within that. But the biggest disappointment from my standpoint was just before that hydration break till the end of the game, England were playing in a manner as if they were down to 10 players and that absolutely was not the case.

You know, I just looked to double check now and again, this is obviously different context. South Africa played the very first game of this World Cup and they went down to 10 players and they still had more possession than England had whilst playing with 11 against another side. And some of that, in my opinion, comes down to possibly mentality but character.

If, for example, your number nine is going to come in, then you create an overload in midfield. You try to play more. And it's not to say you have to have 50% possession. We need to find ways to take the sting out of the game to slow the momentum. Like Spain, like I say, are brilliant at going to applying pressure all around the field.

Everybody from front to back is working super hard. Other teams might say drop into a defensive block, but then still have the sort of threat behind. As we see in domestic football, there's nothing scary than a team that plays a low block, but it's got like speedy wingers and we'll put you on the back foot almost immediately. But very rarely do we see what we saw from England yesterday

in 11 versus 11, which is essentially we are just going to defend for half an hour, and that's fine. And in the end, I think, and I'm sure many people would agree, they got what they deserved. Okay, last question on Thomas Tuckel. there is an argument to say, you know, one of the really good things of this tournament has been the fact that we've seen the best version of Harry Kane and the best version of Jude Bellingham and doesn't Thomas Tuchel deserve some credit for that, etc, etc.

But if what we're being told is true about an issue between the dressing room and Thomas Tuchel and what we know is true, which is that a lot of England fans are really, really unhappy, if both of those things are true, doesn't that make it incredibly different? for a managers to continue, regardless of what backing he might have had in a statement. Let him finish the cycle. Let him finish the cycle. By the way, what's the words that can happen that you fail in the euros? Okay, let's start over then if you want. That'd be a terrible time to take over as England manager after the Euros. Be an awful time. It'd be the first tournament without Harry Kane, probably. That'd be a nightmare time to take over his England manager. Really? Yeah. Or you start over with Pep Guardiola, for instance. Wow. Okay. That's different matter, isn't it?

So now you can get anybody because you can pay for anybody. But let him realize his mistakes, for instance, I don't think, I don't believe that it's not for the kind of football that Natham is asking at that point of pressure. I don't believe that there is not good enough midfielders to actually control the game a little bit better. And if there isn't, can you not just get one or two and build a confidence young players and then just made them those players that can take England away from that pressure because that is a massive gap.

Indulge me then from all three of you with a one word if possible. Right now, do you think Thomas Tuchel will be England manager at the Euros? Jules. Yeah. Not if I was the head of the FA, but I'm not, as you know, I'm with you on Five Live, so he will be. Guillaume? Yeah, he will be there Okay, let him

Can you just indulge me for 30 seconds Crossy please? I'm going to read something out to you Because it's you We didn't, that's not fair Just because it's you There's one roof on some And another roof on us

I'm like the Thomas Tuchel of the show What am I doing? Yeah, crosser you are my you are gang So anyway We couldn't stop the runners From the second line The midfielders through our gaps And the deliveries were on the highest level

You need to get back on the ball Otherwise you cannot break the pressure And you cannot get the momentum back I think ball position plays a possession plays a crucial role. It's maybe not in our DNA like it is our Spanish DNA or in our Argentinian DNA

to take the ball and control the game with the ball, okay? That's coming from Thomas Tuchel talking about his England team. He's talking about England being unable to take the ball because it's not in their DNA. If that is to be the case

and he's expressed now as important how important is to take the ball, why is he coaching this England side? Here is the solution to all the problems. The DNA did not have it. So what is the purpose of him taking control? How about if he got that knowledge as the thing has gone on, he realized,

number one, he can do as much as he wants in a tournament. Number two, the character of the players and the leadership. Number three, the needs. And now he can apply to the Euros. I've so lost the dressing room here. He would have to coach because he didn't coach in that second half against Argentina. There was no coaching. He didn't coach.

And he always could have been on that touchline and he would have been exactly the same. He did not, no coaching whatsoever. And he's your coach. Neddum. Are you going to answer the question? My head's gone. Like, he's, for me, for me, it's out.

For him to present the solution, which he wasn't talking about yesterday. Yeah. And say that the solution does not, like England do not have the DNA for the solution. He's basically saying, well, this is it. It's doomed anyway. So what's the point? I'm not on board with that. And I hope a lot is made of that because that just dropped now.

And I think that's the scandal of what he said there. Maybe, maybe he's asking for that to be the focus. of the future of the Federation and the focus. I'm going to get an answer to the question out of Nadine before we move on as to whether or not he thinks Thomas Tuchel will be, you don't? No, no, not at all. Right, for any of you who heard Harry Kane's interview with Kelly Summers,

he was talking, as has been mentioned, about the idea of the missing piece of the jigsaw. Well, he's a massive piece of the England jigsaw, and he will be 37 just after the end. of the next World Cup. Anything's possible. Kind of have to assume, we've just witnessed his last World Cup, though, don't you? And that's a big problem.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think he will be there. The Euros is the best way for him to to bow at then as an England captain on home soil with a big chance for England to do well in that euros, whether Thomas Tourier is on the bench or not.

So after that, I don't see him, I don't see him being there in front. four years time. And I don't know how you replace him because it's not like if you had a 21 or 22 year old number nine somewhere in the Premier League, English, you know, that could that look like the perfect kind of air to Hurricane. So they would have to find another way, another player, to try to lead this team. And when you think about all the goals that Hurricane has scored in this incredible

international career that it's hard. and I know he hasn't lifted any trophy yet. He was really close, but still, you do wonder where England would be without him anyway. So soon he won't be there anymore. And I think I have to say I'd be worried for England. I got a stat that is quite interesting around English strikers. So there are only three English strikers

who will be below the age of 30 at the Euros, but have also had at least one appearance in a top five league this season. and the list is Liam Dallap, Eddie and Katia and Dane Scarler, and that's it. And there's nothing on them. It's no criticism of them, but it is an indication of the hole that Harry Keen is going to leave sooner or later. Okay, so you've dragged me out here. I'm going to step away from this argument, yeah, in a different sort of way, okay? Just because, for me personally, like his goal scoring very much speaks for itself,

but we're talking about an England generation who we would like to see contesting at the sort of, not just this level, but the next level and beyond. And I think when you look at the two semifinals that they've had, you look at the two European Championship finals that they had. Of those four occasions, how often have you said that they were unlucky to not win? I think the closest they came was a penalty shootout against their Italy in 21. But realistically, for a lot of the other games, they've been outclassed, either for shortish periods or essentially the game itself.

And Harry Kane is a big part of the success. He's had to score the goals and so on and so forth. but for example, this is again to give credit to Spain. How many people from England would love to have a striker like Oya Thabal playing up front for them? And the answer would probably be not many. Here is a guy who's playing for Real Sosierdad. Like, you know, he does very, very well for them. He's got a great goal scoring record for Spain.

But we'd almost like turn our noses up when discussing England in terms of who could fill Harry Kane's boots next. But I think Oyathabal's strength, as well as his finishing and so on, is the way he works as part of the collective. There's no team built around any particular individual. And for as much as Kane will step aside at some point, what's the difference between, say, when Rooney stepped aside or Michael Owen stepped aside and so on? For me, it's just about creating this cohesive, like, unit,

this culture, this shared mentality to where there's no, like, England number nine worship, which I've seen throughout my entire life. And what have England gotten for it across that time? Loads of near misses, like so many near misses. So I, at some point at stage, like he's obviously been an excellent for England, he scored so many goals, been involved in so many big moments.

But then in the biggest moments, like himself and others, he hasn't been able to be the difference, which is very hard to be. But if it's not about any individual, which should be about the collective, and the teams that make it to these finals, especially in Europe, it is built around the collective.

So, yes, there will be a massive gap that's filled, but it's a chance to redesign and restructure it because certain traits that Harry has in terms of dropping off and so on, going into midfield, the defensive side of being a nine. I think if you could have somebody that is more defensive from further up the field, that might not be as prolific as he is, but still help everybody else in the collective change the way that he plays.

Maybe that's the start in the change of mentality that maybe will give them more of a winning mentality. And maybe in the future in our lifetimes, we can look at Guillem like, the Spanish, you guys are cute once upon a time. But instead, every two years, Guillem comes out. Bring it on. Look at us. We did it again. Bring it on.

I'm convinced that Tujel is going to add Amitfelda to his system, somebody that can control games, whoever that is, Wharton, whoever that is. And then Saka, Gordon, Bellingham of front. That's your nine. That's your nine the same way in a way

that Laotado plays, for instance, as well, or Julian Alvarez for Argentina. Not somebody that's fixed there, but somebody that moves around. Now, the thing to do next is, to convince you Bellingham, you don't have to do everything. In fact, you don't have to drop the biggest thing is, and that has been the conversation between Tugel and Bellingham,

which has worked for most of the time together. You are a forward that gets into the box at a time that nobody sees, and you can score five or six calls in a World Cup in that position. And it's not down to the work that a non-fix number nine does with centrebacks. No, no, it's you the way you get into the box. You don't have to be there, and you can be our call the scorer. So I agree with Nathan. We're going to have to see a different structure,

different way of thinking about number nine, different way of thinking about the role of Bellingham, different way of thinking about the midfield, if to help takes the lessons that is learned in this one and applies it to the new euros. Jules, can we just finish with a couple of minutes on the people's final, the real final, the important final, the bronze final,

the third place player. Because we've got loads of time to talk about the World Cup final, and obviously we've got full commentary on Sunday night and obviously it's going to be loads and loads of build up but we're not doing that now we've just been talking England

just thought we'd finish on this Deshaun's last game in charge Thomas Tuchel lots of criticism is that anything that Tuchel and England can gain from that game and how important

is it to France? Tuchel said yesterday no English player wants to play this game and he also said I'm sure no French players I mean maybe he's got people in the French camp

telling him that maybe he's right maybe it's wrong, I don't know. But from a team point of view, it's two defeats in a row then for the losers on Saturday. And I know it's only a third, fourth place game. There's nothing really as to whether you finish third or fourth. In a World Cup, you still got it that you were so close to a final

and potentially winning it. It doesn't really matter. And I agree with that. However, you will end this season, and Deshaun would end his 14 years, tenure, that was overall really good. even if something that you should have on more than just the one World Cup over the 14 years, he still did really well.

But that would be two defeats in a row, which hasn't happened to him a lot in those 14 years. If it's too hard losing and England losing, that's two defeat in a row for two whole. If the defeat is bad on Saturday for Thomas Tooholl, on the back of what we saw yesterday, and everything that we just talked about, again, it's more negativity, it's more scrutiny, it's more pressure.

And that's really the last thing that Thomas Tuchel. But if you get spanked by the best French team that Deschon might put on, because it's his last game and he wants to win it and he wants to end on a win, which, you know, it's fair. Yeah. And because Embaping, I want to win the golden boot and he's on, you know, eight goals and so he's messy, all of all those kind of things. And then France win three nil, I think this is really bad for Thomas Stupon. So, yes, there's a bit of something there on top of the rivalry between France and England, obviously in every sport, historically, blah, blah, blah, all of that politically. but I think more more there for Thomas too than for anybody else.

Yeah, although the flip side of that is if he starts Cobby Mayneau and then he has an absolutely brilliant game in England win and then he'll get he's going to get stick anyway. Guys, that was really good, really enjoyed that. Neda Minua, Julien Leone, Guillain-Laure. Thank you very much, fellas.

Speak to you all very, very soon, no doubt. Thank you. Yes, indeed. Right. That's it for this episode of the Football Daily. I think everyone's got something off their chest. Up next, Rick and Lloyd from New York. World Cup final, Sunday, Spain and Argentina, of course. You can listen to it on 5 live at 8pm.

You can also listen to England, France, the people's final, on Saturday at 10 o'clock in the third place. As always, thank you so much for listening. The 2023 Ballandor, France footballer, is Lionel Messi. The winner is Chrisena Ryb. This is the story of the greatest rivalry in the history of sport, a rivalry that split football into two fates for a generation. There could be no, oh, Messi and Ronaldo are both great players.

There had to be one that was better. They 100 million percent pushed each other to the next level. You know, we were the lucky ones who got to see it. I'm Steve Crossman. This is Sporting Giants, Messi v. Ronaldo. Listen first on BBC Sounds. The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the Global Story podcast from the...

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