Football Daily - World Cup: What's Next For England?

Episode Date: July 19, 2026

England's World Cup is over, but what comes next?Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith are joined by Guy Mowbray and Adam Crafton to reflect on England's third-place finish, ask whether more could have been done against Argentina in the semi-finals and discuss what the future looks like without players like Harry Kane, Jordan Pickford and John Stones.They also preview Spain v Argentina, discuss MetLife Stadium and New York's embrace of the World Cup, while Rick and Lloyd swap stories from Times Square, the cinema with Guillem Balague and a trip to M&M World with Paul Robinson.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The World Cup is back and because we have no off switch, football weekly is going daily. If you want a podcast with more footballing heritage than a Brazil number 10, more talent than a French starting 11 and more predictable than an England penalty shootouts, look no further. We'll have 33 daily episodes covering not just the goals and the glory, but the politics and the problems of this year's tournament. Can England end 60 years of her?

Join me, Max Rochton, our expert panel and Barry, every day of the tournament. Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch the full episodes on YouTube. All Daily Podcasts at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith. Hello, welcome to the Football Daily with Rick and Lloyd. We are in Buddy's Bar in Jersey City. And the weather today has been an absolute disgrace. Since I last saw you, what have you done? Well, when did I last see it after the podcast yesterday? Yeah, I basically went to Eminem World with Paul Robinson. Pretty good.

Yeah, what did you do? I went to the cinema with Guillembella. Fantastic. What a life we lead. It's quite... I was there watching Paul Robinson trying to put his face on some M&Ms. Get frustrated at the screen and then walk out. And did it work?

No, not at all. Is it like a normal size Eminem or a big Eminem? It's a head-sized Eminem. Oh, and then you get your faces. Yeah, he loves Eminem's. Quite fun. Yeah. I've known Paul for a long time. Never seen him do that before.

I've never seen him do that before. I didn't even realize he was into Eminem's until we were walking through Times Square and he was like, oh my God, Eminem World. I was like, that is a man from Yorkshire. Yeah, also, just go to Lester Square. There's one of the lesser square. Yeah. But I do look, Paul. So we spent a nice little date together with his family.

And what did you go and watch at the cinema with Giam? The Odyssey. Oh, I don't know what that means. And it was, well, basically, because I've got to stay up very late to do breakfast, so I needed to stay up late to get my body. on, Oh, body clocking. You body clocking.

So we went to the late showing of The Odyssey. Three hour film started at 11pm. You do the math. Yeah, so we brought out at 2 a.m. And it had, the dangerous thing was, the cinema had like full flatbed recline. Every single seat was full flatbed recline. We hadn't paid extra.

That was just every seat. And full, people were in there with like blankets. We shared. I mean, it was so. sweet. He bought me the tickets. I bought the snacks and the drinks. I love Guy. And the film's fantastic. For a three-hour film, I didn't check my watch. I love films but they're too long. And a three-hour film is too long. And I've

engrossed. Completely had me for the whole thing. Is it a good film? It's a really good film. Did you cry like I did with Hamnet? No, I didn't. It's not that, I felt a little bit emotional because it is basically about a man, trying to get home to see his wife and child. So I felt a bit like, not for the first time, Odysseus. Not for the first time. You are so deluded.

It's absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, and then today I got up. I interviewed Paul Robinson. He didn't mention Eminem World or you. He didn't mention me. No, no. Then John Murray didn't mention Eminem World or you. And then I went to go meet a lot of Spanish fans.

ate some Spanish food, tried to use some Spanish fans, castanets, but the man had left. And then we went to Times Square, and there was more Argentinians than, I've been to Argentina, there was more Argentinians than I've ever seen in my life. So the Bandarzzo,

they're like pre sort of party rally, starting at five. We got there at about 3.30, and I looked at, it was like, well, you can't, how is this, A, How is this not already started, because it looks like it started. How many people do you reckon they were?

I don't know. I don't know how... As many people as you could fit comfortably into time, uncomfortably into Times Square. It was that many. I mean, thousands. Thousands. And I'd gone to the Spanish thing and thought, oh, this is nice. There's like hundreds of Spaniards here.

And then you look at the Agenius. You go, okay, there's a lot of them have traveled. I went and watched the England game with a friend of mine, John. And he was like, oh, we're meeting this bar, like in central Manhattan. and the amount of Argentinians just everywhere, like in shops, decking themselves out with various outfits, flags. They've all got the flags on the back of their rocks, and stuff like that.

But what I will say is, though, this bar that we watched the England game in, absolutely full of England fans. It was brilliant. It was really, really nice. I had a lovely little time. That is nice for a game that is, of course, irrelevant. Do you want to guess what I did after the Times Square? fan interactions.

Got a pretzel from a little place in the corner? Did not go to pretzel from the smoke coming out through the grills? No, you won't get it. I went to a little French brasserie and sat outside and interviewed and this was just off Central Park. Yeah. Very different

feel and interviewed Gabby Logan whilst her husband Kenny was sat next to us. Lovely. It was really nice. It was really nice. Yeah. And he's got a very firm handcheck indeed. Very firm. Yeah, I mean like crushingly firm. So too has their son.

I mean, that guy, like, Kenny's a big man. Their son is like, I mean, immediately you think, who's bigger? Is it him or Gary Barlow's son? And we'll maybe we'll never know. It's not that size, but we were, I was at Oasis and he was there, came over. Gary Barlow's son? No, obviously not. Gabbyn, again, his son.

Ruben? Ruben, I think he is Rubin, yeah. He plays rugby, professional rugby, fantastic. Lovely, lovely lad. Lovely, lovely. Lovey. Big man. Hand was absolutely gone.

I know you said Casper Schmichael had a firm hand and shake. I was like, how was a kid? Half my age. Just made me wince. Yeah. But luckily I'd have to play him in rugby. Should we introduce our guests? So we're joined by commentator Guy Mowbray and Adam Crafton from the Athletic.

Hello, fellas. How are you? Very good. Thank you for having me. Very good. Very wet. So, yeah, I mean, we've come from L.A. And the weather in L.A. was fantastic.

and here, I actually haven't seen rain like it. So we're in Jersey City. And the rain this morning, like people were sort of ankle deep in it. So it was like waves in the water. It may be quite grumpy, I'll be honest. It's really weird. You know, when you think you're kind of seeing things, and then you go, oh, is that Wayne Rooney in a life jacket?

But that actually turns out it actually was. He was rowing. He was rowing. I saw Joe Hart coming back to the hotel. barefoot with a white t-shirt on absolutely soaked through a lovely body on the guy by the way and it was it was nuts and possibly with Joe quite deliberate yeah by this point there was no rain no yeah there was a game on this afternoon which I have to say I didn't watch England beat France 6-4 to finish third it's

England's best finish in a world come since 1966. It looked a bit like a soccer eight game to me. I could not, I could not bring myself to care less about this game. I didn't even, like, I sort of looked at my watch. It was like, oh, England to play. And I didn't watch a single second of it. Can anyone make me, I challenge any three of you to make me care about that game. Well, look, I'm not going to make your care.

You've made your own decision there, Rick, you know. Try and back yourself. Myself, as a massive England fan, was up at 5 a.m., getting ready for the game. I said to a few friends, I was like, imagine if we turn over the French, like 5-0. Yeah. It could be ridiculous. And they put, like, quite a strong team out. And I'd say we put, like, a relatively second-ish fiddled team out.

And we look fantastic. And it was really weird. And I don't believe it was a soccer rate you kind of, like, feel to it. Did you actually watch it? No. Okay, yeah. So I think you do need to watch it in order to, you know, be able to say. Did he bring KSI on in the end

or did he keep him on the bench? I'm just amazed you know who KSI is. Thank you. I'm surprised that's got through. For anyone else who was or used to be in the sidebed place. I'm surprised that has got through to your Blackberry. But yeah, look, it was a weird game. But ultimately, you know, England have had the best finish

since 1960, the best on foreign soil, as I saw on their Instagram. And look, you know, the French wants it. And Bappet wants to be leading goals scorer. Which we may have allowed him. Which may have allowed him. Absolutely a game of two halves. But look, it was fun to watch.

It was fun to watch. But I think it did show glimpses of how we could actually play. I think you have to view this completely detached as a one-off game. I don't think we can say, oh, that shows we could have done this. I just don't think you can. It doesn't show anything, does it? I was a bit ambivalent until it was 2-0. And then I said, oh, hang on a minute.

This could get very interesting. And then I really started to take notice of it. Tell you what it does do, it shows you that football's a much better game when you take coaches out of the equation and just let them play. Enjoy yourselves, lads. All head coaches. Just go and play, that's what it did. It looked like they were just being able to play and the, I mean, the cliché of that the shackles were off.

And there was no pressure, but they... And that's it. That's exactly what it was. It was, yeah. I mean, look, like it was great because we were scoring up. The defence was also, both sides, absolutely abysmal. Just people just running through. But it was nice to watch, and, you know, it's nice to say, oh, we beat France.

Look, it doesn't matter. People saying it's a dead rubber. It is still a game in the World Cup. We have finished third. See, I think it does matter. I think it does. Baccaiosaqa thinks it matters. Yeah.

You know, he's just scored a hat trick at a World Cup. Yeah, but whenever anyone ever says that, there's got to be such a big asterisk next to it. How can Baccao Saka go from not being able to play a minute? That's the thing. I don't know. Hopefully somebody will have asked him by now. Different game.

Different circumstances, different everything. I think this game, creates more questions because exactly that going, sorry, one second, you didn't put Saccoon at all against Argentina, yet he has a fantastic game. I honestly think you have to separate the lot. Oh, you do, honestly. You do, but I do think it poses a lot of questions.

I did quite like the fact that he brought on. I think every outfield player has now played, apart from Coby Maynou, who was injured. Trevor Chalibar came on for the final few minutes. And that's great, you know, to see him. I mean, he didn't have a great few minutes, but it was nice to see the whole squad be rotated, should we say. In that game, you actually could probably have bought Jordan Henderson on.

Fine. That's the matter. He has been on the bench the last three games. He's been named as a substitute for the last three games. Which is what makes it a little bit strange that Cobby Mayne, who wasn't listed on the bench. Presumably, maybe you can play with a cast on your arm, I guess. He can play with a cast on his hamstring.

I think that was the main reason. He couldn't actually run, whereas Jordan maybe could have got up and down a bit, although the referee may have taken issue with the fact he's got a cast up to his shoulder. Can we talk a bit about Thomas Tuchel's reaction to the exit against Argentina? So when he's sort of saying, well, it's never our plan to drop deeper

and maybe it's not in our DNA to control the game and ball. I personally didn't love that. I'm not sure. I want him saying, what is and isn't in our DNA. I also don't really know what it means if you want to read anything into this game

you see that other approaches are possible I don't know if it's just sort of madly I don't know maybe he does mean that stuff and he just wants to say what he thinks it doesn't feel very well advised to me I don't know well it makes you wonder what the point of a coach is

because if you have the view that there is something innate innate intrinsic to this group of players that you being paid very very handsomely as a coach cannot fix it kind of renders you a bit obsolete in your purpose. So I found that, there was two moments I found, like, unusually triggering this week.

One was when the Argentines came on with their banner. I sort of discovered a patriotism that I didn't know existed. And then also, when Tupol started talking about that, I found this kind of patriotism inside me. I was like, no, my DNA. My DNA, I can keep the ball after all. Can you? I can keep the ball. Can you play next week?

I was like, we can't keep, you know, we see these players pass the ball to each other every week in the Premier League. So I did find it very strange as a reason just because it makes you wonder what the point of a coach is. It does, it feels like we're reiterating towards no coaches is what we want to see. If we do no coaches and no pressure, we could be really good.

I think we could be lethal. I also think that's what we saw today. Did he day Sean has checked out? He's like, it's my last game. Thomas Tinkle's like, just do what you ever you want lads and they did it was great. I don't quite get it's like it's in the DNA but like

you had six defenders on like you gave the ingredients there were oh we've got six defenders here so how are you going to work with that like well he's saying isn't he that he was reacting to what the players were doing and you can like you know when you look back at the pictures you can see

him and the coaches sort of urging the players up the pitch and that isn't working but he seems to have just accepted oh okay they're never going to do it, so I might as well just walk a load more defenders are. I think we're going too deep into it. I think you used a very glib phrase of DNA. It's become a sort of thing, isn't it, talking about people's DNA.

And no regrets as well. No, he did. No regrets. Has anything about controlling a football? No, it's not. It's sort of quite a glimpse frame. And I think it's the pressure of after the game and saying things, you know, when the dust settles later on, I'm sure he'll have a different view on it.

Do you think he'll say he had some regrets later on? I think you probably will, yeah. I hope he does. I think you probably will. And we've got so close and never quite done it. And I think he probably was trying to fudge around that this is England, sort of this is what they always do. I kind of get it.

He made mistakes, yes, absolutely. But it's so raw. It's still quite raw now, even after today's game. But I don't get how he can say it's in our DNA to basically not take control and go forward when he had six defenders on the pitch. Like if you'd have put three or four attackers on there, then it's different. It's like, this is a weird analogy that I've just come up with.

Oh, God. Imagine going on to Ready, Steady Cook. Just cut this out. And giving Ainsley Harriet six eggs and some ham. We've just lost a very young audience. And they... We never had them, some of them. We've honestly...

If you'd have read some of the faxes we've got, you know it's not a young audience. Giving him six eggs and some ham and going, why have you not made steak, Tata? You've given us an omelet there. And you're going, well, you've had six defenders on the pitch. Ready, steady, Kobe Mayno. Thank you.

There we go. That'll be the headlight. Keep in, actually. Yeah. Going back to the coaches thing Do you remember Alex Ferguson's last game at Man United? 5-5 against West Brom. Yeah.

Day shop today. There's something in it. I'm checking out. Yeah. Do what you want, lads. Go on. Enjoy yourselves. I sort of quite enjoyed Donald Trump's mad

intervention. The sort of thing. I got patriotic at that, Adam. That was the moment I went. You believed America was great again. No, you know. we're about to ask him to take the hat off actually but in what world

does I mean it's actually it's a mugs game trying to work out in what world but he was right there was kind of two moments with this I watched the game with my American partner who does not watch very much soccer at all and we were about 68 minutes into the game

where he started saying to me why are they retreating Retreating's a bit strong Retreating? He doesn't watch football but it has a lot of rest. Yes. But by...

Because if you're watching the Patriots. I watched that the other day. The English are retreating. But by the next day, everyone was talking about the retreat. This retreat. So he was very much head of the game. And then when you see Trump diagnose it as well,

it made me think this couldn't have been that complicated. To be honest. It was very clear. Look, let's be honest. Trump has been briefed by someone who knows a little bit about football slash shock and going, hey, how about you say this?

You've played golf with him. Say this. And it's just a distraction. So we're not talking about the things that actually matter when it comes to Donald Trump. I don't know how much Trump takes briefing. The last person that says something in here, he'll go out and say it. So there's clearly a soccer fan in the way out of it's gone, hey, quickly say this about Hurricane now.

How we played really deep? He's like, okay. And he's just gone and done it. And it was like, God, I agree with Donald Trump. What's going on? But he delivered it. Retreat. He did.

delivered it very well though in the set it was like you've been here too long oh no you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't fault many things about the man you can't for his delivery you can't the guy's box office you really can you can't you can't follow the comic timing he was saying that harry cane is a great attacker and he then sort of deliver take but he turned him into defense right and that was his diagnosis he was like I'm not sure that was a good idea what do I know actually talking about this yeah yeah yeah but this is the thing it's the thing he kind of makes you talk about it.

Do you think Thomas Tuckel will be in charge of England at the Euros in 2028? Yeah, I do. I must say I saw some of the reaction today when his face was on the screen and he was booed, which I presume was England fans at the game. I think that's meaningful. Equally, I think the FAA will be hoping the dust settles, that there is some recognition over time of some of maybe the errors that were on the night.

Look, as we said, it's still a pretty good finish for the tournament. I think it is just this feeling of, you know, what could have been. And that will stay. I think one of the challenges he's going to have is perhaps actually the credibility with the players and how the players felt about that night and what the decisions that were made. That's the thing that worries me more is that so Sammy Mockbell, the BBC has spoken to a number of senior players who were effectively briefing that they didn't like the tactics

they didn't understand why they were being asked to do it and then Tuka was sort of not directly hit back but it's basically saying where the players weren't doing what I wanted them to do and I think when you get that kind of situation a slightly fractured relationship I don't know how we not I'm saying it's impossible to repair that but I don't think it's easy to repair this before his clubs he's been quite abrasive and he has had this

But then I look back at just a few days before, everybody, when that clip of John Stone's giving his shoulder pump in the dressing room, the universal thing was, what a great look at this, the manager's in, they all love him and all this. And I know it can turn very quickly, but I don't think you lose that on one game. I don't think you do. And what I would add to that is, if you think that's the Croatia game, I think he took rice off, he took baby Bellingham off.

Substitutions were bang on. Substitutes were bang on, but also he was taking off big players at big moments of games. And we were all there saying, we love that he's, prepared to take the big decisions that he's got this eye and will. I think every game until the semi-final, he got all the subs and calls right. Pretty much every one. But would you say that...

What was he hired for? Yeah, yeah, exactly. For these moments. I got a multi-stage approach to the two-called thing. I didn't want him appointed in the first place. I'm very, very old-school. International football, I think it should be like players. I think you should qualify unless you're an emerging nation and you need to come in.

Yeah, but that's gone. That's not happening. So what, our best be your best? Yeah, kind of. You know, there's maybe no coincidence that every single World Cup has been won by a natural coach. And also, if you look at the two finalists, they're not club coaches tomorrow. Different sort of technique. Yeah.

It's different techniques required. Yeah. You've also got then, okay, got it. And he was brought on to do the next step that Gara Southgate didn't quite do. Okay, he hasn't done that. I don't understand why they give him the contract for the Euros as well. But they have. Okay.

So they have. So they stuck with it now. So I would say now, right, well, you stick with it and you go with it. Because otherwise, what's the point starting again with somebody else and starting the whole process again? Stick with it on less, and there's one big unless here. Some England fans have put this to me over the last few days. If Pep Guadiole was available, you do it.

Yeah. I don't know if that's pie in the sky. The conversation is that Pep was seriously considering it in 20... Two years ago. Yeah, two years ago. And was kind of sitting on giving the FAA a decision for like three weeks and must have been considered quite carefully and then decided against. But it does sort of give you hope.

that maybe that's a timing thing and he felt like he had a bit more to give to city. The only thing I wonder coming out of this tournament, if you look at some of those big, big club coaches, Ancelotti with Brazil, Tucal with England, Pocetino, when it came to those real kind of clutch moments, they came up short. Yeah, yeah.

In international football. I would have Frank Lampard one day. I really would. I'd not met one top pro who doesn't look up to him still and thinks, my God, he's got it. And because he's gone through the setup, he knows everything. Coventry fans now are going, shut up.

I would say, though, I mean, I think the point you make about kind of homegrown coaches is important because when you watch this Argentina team, and I think the Spanish one is, there's two models, right? You either have the coach that comes through the Federation with a style of play. Lee Carsley. Yeah, Lee Carsley, quite right. That's one model. The other model is you develop this kind of band of brothers, which is what Argentina have. and this real feeling.

I mean, you saw when they sung the National Anthem. I've never seen anything. There's another thing that goes against us. Ours is too short. Ours is too short? So over before it's finished and then the other one goes on for five minutes and they're all pumped up.

That was the closest I've ever seen in football to the hacker in terms of how intimidating it was. I was watching on TV, scared. Yeah, can I just on the national anthem and this is like a bit of a special subject to mine. It's a real divisive anthem the English national anthem

because I think we've got one Muslim player that plays for, England now, we've got a lot of lads that are religious, but we've also got a lot of lads that aren't religious, and also we've got a lot of people that don't necessarily believe in the monarchy. So our national anthem is very different to many other national anthem. So I actually think that we are at a disadvantage with our national anthem because it is quite divisive at the start.

Is it time for you to write a new one? Rick, I can't show you my pitch docs that are in my Google Drive, but I've already been thinking of any of good life. I didn't really connolly once say they should be the theme tune from the archers. I mean, it would be perfect. very, it would also, a lot of, a lot of smiling. People would enjoy it. I do, again, obviously lost to the younger audience.

A different conversation for a different day, but I do think we need to change on national anthem at one point, and I think that Prince William is the person to do that. But just going back. Chumba Wamba. What do you call me? Going back to England manager, I still do hope that is Thomas too cool, because I think, as you say, Guy, I don't think we should chop and change. We saw the fans today.

which obviously is not ideal. I hope that the FA do stick with him so that we can then carry on going on because basically it's very much like politics. I mean people want fast news, they want a turnover, journalists, no offense, want things to write about, podcasters need revenue, so they'll just kind of push and push and push the envelope and we'll react to fans.

I agree with it. No, but it's not like politics because I don't want results every day everywhere. I want results every two. two years. No, absolutely. But it is like... So there's quite a lot of time to build up to it.

I don't care what you look like in the buildup. I don't care if you lose in the Nations League. I don't care if you lose friendlies. If you go and then win in a tournament, I'm absolutely delighted. But we're getting there. We're getting there. No, for sure. From 2018 onwards, semi-finals and finals,

it's beyond my wildest dreams. I'm not saying we've been spoiled, but look. And only one team can ever win. Yeah. We've come third in the World Cup, which is obviously... Second in the Euro. Yeah, second of the...

It's not bad, but I hope that they do... And again, there needs to be a post-mortem, as you say, and when the dust settled. The Arsenal approach, and second, second, finger. But, you know, going, right, why did this happen? And, you know, what happened here and there? I still hope that they stick with him and they don't react to fan pressure and...

I'm with you, Lord. I'm with you, Lord. What worries me a little bit, particularly for the next World Cup, not to luck too far, is I'm not sure in key positions, we actually have the quality of player that will be being replaced. One in particular. One in particular up front,

but I also think John Stones stepping out, Trevor Chalderallon, John Stone stepping out centre defence, and I think we may have a goalkeeper problem as well in four years' time. So they are three pretty key positions that I don't think you can win a World Cup without, so we need players to emerge.

I think there's four years for that to have it. I think that's the position, yeah. And I think there are ways around that in systems or whatever. But I think, well, one of the few nations play with an out-and-out-send-forward who's a goal-keeper in four? Who's a goalkeeper in four years? I think Dean Henderson will still be absolutely. Or Trafford?

He's only going to be 30. 35 is nothing for a keep. Nothing. Trafford if he keeps progressing, absolutely. As long as he does keep progressing, he's a bit. Also, if you imagine, like, a PEP-type coach, you can certainly see him not being fast about having a straight. I don't.

I don't know. I'm almost saying to, like Bellingham, players of Fawcine, you'd sort of see that working, potentially. It's centre forward. We haven't got many good strikers. Goldkeepers, that's my other little. I do think that Trafford will be good in four or maybe eight years. Tommy Sefton at Arsenal, I think.

I think there's a few. And centrebacks, we always fight centre. Don't worry about that. It's in our DNA. Pep, who we've anointed as our next coach. Did, of course, sign James Trafford and then signed someone else. Yeah, yeah. Circumstance.

That was circumstance. Circumstance. He just happened to be available. Daily Podcasts at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffin. Listen on BBC Sounds. 33 days, 33 episodes, no off switch. From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, if you want football analysis from a podcast that's been over-analyzing the game for more than 20 years, this is it.

Join me, Max Rushton and our expert team of football journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt? Probably not Or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcast

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So we've got Spain, Argentina later today First time the European champions have faced the Copper America holders in a World Cup final I do think it's a fascinating game and once you kind of strip away the disappointment I am really looking forward to it Guy you've done a bunch of World Cup finals now Do you still get a bit of a tingle, though?

Oh, God. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's the biggest game every four years anywhere. And, yeah, it started weeks ago, actually, no matter who would be in the final. There's so many reasons to be looking forward to this one. So many. The Clash of Stiles, even though both technically Latin countries,

totally different, totally different approaches. I think it'll have agro, which I always enjoy a bit of. Yes. It's going to have phenomenal footballers. We've got Messi chasing all kinds of records. It's got a bit of everything, is this? Really looking forward to it. I think what I love about it is you have these two entirely contrasting teams.

You've got this Spanish team that is rational, surgical, that has this clear, defined plan. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum this chaos, this quite emotional chaos and lack of control, really, within games. and then that one player who can just destroy any plan. And that just makes it completely compelling. And also, I think the fans are going to be another dimension to this because Spain don't travel. Spain don't really travel.

No. They don't travel to their own away games. No, club sides don't generally. Really? No. So this will be like an Argentina home game again, I suspect. I went and spent some time with Spanish fans who are all in a little sort of indoor market. Yeah, and it was nice. and then I went to Times Square

and saw the Argentineans and was like chased out. It is like it's crazy. It is great though. I mean for all the disappointment of the other day, etc. Every Argentine game I've covered at various World Cups I've just been the greatest occasions. The tears start three hours before kickoff.

They've absolutely bursted to floods of tears just arriving at the stadium. They're away, they're off. It's unbelievable. It'll be amazing to see if they can drag the Spanish into their game as well because it's sort of have to, don't they? I think they do.

Somebody will be winding Rodry up from the start. Take the motor out. Do you think he's wind up a ball? Oh, he can be. He can be. Yeah, he can be a little bit. I remember City against Forrest three years ago when somebody got stuck into him and that was

it, he lashed out. Not often, but he can be. It can be done. But they can give it back a bit as well. Oh yeah? Yes. Yes. I keep talking about Cocherea on that left-hand side. Well, there you go. There's one. I keep talking about it. podcast, it's a bit boring now, but I just cannot say how he's not going to get a card or potentially get sent it off. I think it's going to be a great game.

He's also been one of the standout fallbacks of the tournament. Yeah. Like he, if anyone, anyone could sort of do a job. He could go three years in a row. Euros, Club World Cup, World Cup. Mark Bucreya. Yeah. Which is...

Big trophy. Yeah. Big trophy. And it's all down to his wife's pajamas. Excuse me? he brought them with him because apparently in Germany at the Euros two years ago she stayed with him

during the tournament and so he wanted something of her with him at this tournament so he brought his wife's pyjamas I don't know if he's sleeping in them he must be I don't know them with you but it's working how do you know this he does his research he does his prep I may have gone too far with that bit of prep

there's research but there's the restraining order yeah how do you know that if he's wearing a very close well if he's wearing a pair of silky PJs underneath his

kit it's something to look out for what is the what's the MetLife going to be

like you must have been to the MetLife not to see too many times probably

have you been to a few games I've been to this season tournament this season this jet season yeah

no I've been a few times at Cop of America a few times at Club World Cup and then a few times in

the World Cup MetLife in the exterior is a very charmless an inspiring place. I think once you're inside it, I don't think it's as beautiful

or as gauche as some of those other kind of venues like SoFi and Atlanta Stadium and the Dallas, Dallas, and Seattle where you have the downtown views, which is fantastic. But I think it does start to look better on broadcast as the game goes on. It's my favourite.

It's your favourite of all the World Cup stadiums. You're a reaction. Why? Well, Americans don't like it. I'm surprised by it. But Ian Dennis said to say. I love it. The first game I did at this World Cup was here, Brazil Morocco.

I've done five games here, I think, now. And I've been all the others, I've been Atlanta and everything. With chess is fantastic. But they all feel a little bit false, a little bit. A bit too much. It's a bit razzle-dazzle. And I don't like indoors. The air-con plays have it with your throat, don't you know?

So I like being outdoors for a start. And it feels like a great big old coliseum of sport. It is made to be a sporting arena. It's one of the worst views you can have. like you see the tops of players' heads. It's so steep and we're so high up. But that aside, never mind that. I love the place.

I think it's a phenomenal place, but presumably your vantage point is quite important. And if you've got a bad vantage point. It's so high. I've never been so high. We're right at the back to my arms here. What about in SoFi? Because that's the place, that's why we've been.

We watched a few there. You can't see the near touch line. Oh, no, it's not as bad as that. Yeah. That's ridiculous. I've got my producer as binoculars who can tell me which subs come on on because you genuinely. And also if there's a nice

Shush over there. Numbers on shirts, pointless. Can we just have a little glimps behind the curtain here? Are you only ever watching the pitch or do you look at the screen? No, both, yeah. A little bit of both. I think treat yourself.

Yeah, I didn't see what happened there. Hello. There you go. Adam, you've... How long have you lived in New York now? About two and a half years. What has New York been like since the World Cup's been here?

Obviously, we've seen a lot of fans today. I mean, the Argentinian fans in one of the stores, which I won't mention, but they make the shirts, they were going absolutely crazy fish. They're like supermarket sweep

which I think that's actually the third time I've mentioned that on this podcast. Yeah, well you're a massive day, a winter fan. Do you know what? I just love 90s TV, don't I? Blind date. Argentinians absolutely taken over

over New York this weekend. But what's it been like in New York for the whole of the tournament? I think with New York it depends where you are because New York is a place that is so used to having mega events, used to having big concerts. So if you're in Times Square during the World Cup,

you can definitely feel it and you'll see the fans. You know, you go downtown somewhere like the East Village or the West Village, probably a lot less so, or the financial district, a lot lesser. But it's a bit like, I don't know, I mean, I think to a certain extent we hold some of these American cities to a slightly unfair bar. It's a bit like if the World Cup was in, was at Wembley,

and someone's like, let's go to Clapton and check, check what the World Cup buzz is like, you know? You know, there's been some piece where people are going to, like, very remote parts of America and say, where's the World Cup? Yeah, I agree. So I think what I would say is the downtown stadium cities, so Philadelphia, Seattle, Atlanta,

because you contain that buzz into a smaller area, that has felt a lot more compelling. And some of those other places, like Kansas or Dallas, that are maybe a little bit more grateful to have an event of this size as well. But New York, New York's New York, New York is very used to having things. FIFA kind of needs New York more than New York needs FIFA.

I don't know about you, Adam. I've seen it grow here. I've been out of here a lot throughout the tournament. The first week, it was all about New York Knicks winning the... NBA Finals. So that was... I don't follow it, but I was made to. It's rubbish.

Most New Yorkers said the same. It was absolutely rubbish. Boing, Boing, 2-0. Boing-2. Just play the last five minutes. Fine. Anyway... You could be talking about today's game, though, to be fair. That's very true. That was a bit like that.

Yeah. So that was all about that. And you didn't get a feel, particularly where we are here. We didn't really get that feel. And then, after a few days away coming back, oh, hang on a minute, this place has got it now. And then the next time I came back, that's all you heard about. World Cup. You're here for the World Cup.

Here for the World Cup. Get asked about it all the time. It's grown. What's great as well about particularly the Boston, New York, Philadelphia region is, the diversity in the diaspras. I know we probably heard the word diaspora too much by now during this World Cup. But that just brings such a vital. to it. And I think for a long time, kind of, there are people at FIFA who are obsessed with

converting the people who watch NFL on a Sunday into soccer fans. And actually, you have a, you had a huge audience already of these communities that have routes in Brazil or Argentina or Haiti. And they were already excited. So it's only really been supplementing and igniting that. And really the Argentines, you know, a huge Argentine community in Miami, for example, that I we've seen in prior games, but I think they've also travelled really well as well. You're going to miss it on Tuesday when everyone just leaves? No. Okay, brilliant.

I didn't expect that answer. I'm going to miss the World Cup. I'm going to miss the amount of people. All the world's journalists are here, colleagues. He's moved to get away from most of them. I'm in press boxes ducking and weaving. No, I'm joking. Love everyone.

You say you're joking. You can say you're joking. We are staying in the same hotel. as Guy and Balagay. I spoke to him yesterday about the final and he is so relaxed about it and says he is more confident than he's ever been in Spain winning.

Well that's because he has a great book on Messi so I presume it's win-win to a third. That's exactly what he said to me. Really? Yeah, he's like, obviously I want Spain to win but if Messi does well, another little rewrite. Add in chapter.

Exactly. I mean, literally that. And I can completely understand why he feels so confident. Spain unbeaten in 37 competitive games, but we're in a shootout. But then I think Argentina on like a 14 game winning streak, and they just seem to be able, they're serial winners, and they seem to be out, dig stuff out. And so although, sort of logically, I feel like, well, yes, Spain must win this. I actually don't know.

I don't know. It's 5149. I think it's so close. I really do. I wouldn't make them absolutely clear favourites. But I mean, because of Argentina, simply because of their DNA.

But it's been amazing because we've, I saw Argentina live against Switzerland and every time I've watched Argentina in this tournament, I've come away saying, they are so beatable. But nobody beats them. Yeah. So.

But that's exactly like you watch them. You go, it's weird. I don't think they're very good. Yeah. How are they doing this? Like the best worst, worst, best team, you've ever seen kind of thing. I think I've said that about every team at this tournament. I said it after Spain, Cape Verdi.

No, nil, straight away. Oh, they won't win it. They're not very good. Also, I think the amount of times that I've said, yeah, but wait until they come against some opposition that will really give them a challenge. No easy games. And then they go, actually, you know, they've been absolutely fine.

Absolutely fine. How do you see tomorrow going, Adam? Spain, I think, will win. Just. I don't think it'll be sort of comfortable. And I think Spain might... The only thing I worry about is Spain is whether they can put Argentina to bed, whether they've got enough firepower to get that second goal.

They've not scored tons of goals, actually, Spain. They just kind of... They don't concede, but... Yeah. But we're also still waiting for that kind of Yamau moment, aren't we, as well? I am... I mean, it would be great if it happens in the World Cup moment. We're waiting for that in the World Cup.

Yeah. As long as, you know, Delafueente doesn't put on... six defenders when they're won it up. I don't think any coach would be mad enough to do that. Who's ever done that? And if there is one, give him a couple more years. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. See what he gets on.

Thank you very much for joining us. So one last chance to get your messages in ahead of the World Cup final. Well, we'll read them out now. You can get some in afterwards. This is from Matt in Hertfordshire. He says, this is... I read this. This is funny.

Okay. I reckon Lloyd. Guttit to have just discovered your podcast right at the end of the World Cup. So, I've been listening in reverse, a strangely restorative exercise. Each episode, the expectation slightly lessens so that by the group stages

you feel more or less decompressed. I wanted to recommend this to any fans suffering from the World Cup bends after being hoiked out of the tournament before they were ready. It's brilliant. Who's that from Rick? No, that's from Matt in Harfordshire.

Matt in Harvard, that is absolutely ridiculous. It's a wonderful idea. If anyone else wants to listen to it in reverse and tell us how it feels, get in touch. Very weird inception, that. Yeah. Or memento.

Memento, actually, is what I meant. The number is 08,000, 289, 369. Send us a WhatsApp. Oh, don't sing this bit. Send us a WhatsApp message or voice note. Lydide to hear from me for one last time. We've only got one show left. One show left.

Dry your eyes. I'm going to be very sad. I'm going to be very, very sad. I need to go home. My wife is saying things like, I'm going to burn the house now. I can show you that text. Did she actually say that? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, thank you. Specifically, if she was like, at no point argue with me when you get home. Yeah, lovely. She said, remove the word no from your vocabulary. Lovely. If you so much as wince when I say something you don't like, I will burn the house down. Right. Well, Phoebe, I take back everything I said last week when I said you were being unreasonable.

Can I wait to get home? The BBC, by the way, has got you completely cover for the World Cup final. expect all the build-up with Kelly Kate's live inside the stadium from 7 o'clock on 5 Live and BBC Sounds. The live coverage starts on BBC 1 and I player also from 7 with Gabby Logan. Oh, you know her, don't you? I do know her actually, yes. Could you text her now? Is she in your phone?

No. And we'll be back with one last podcast after the final. I can text Kenny. I'm going to text Gabby Logan now. Oh, push notifications. The 2020. This is the story of the greatest rivalry. in the history of sport.

A rivalry that split football into two fates for a generation. There could be no, oh, Messi and Ronaldo are both great players. There had to be one that was better. They 100 million percent pushed each other to the next level. You know, we were the lucky ones who got to see it. I'm Steve Crossman. This is Sporting Giants, Messi v. Ronaldo. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

33 days, 33 episodes, no off switch. from the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup. If you want football analysis from a podcast that's been over-analyzing the game for more than 20 years, this is it. Join me, Max Rushton and our expert team of football journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt? Probably not. Or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably.

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