Forbidden History - Finding Mary Magdalene

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

According to all four gospels, Jesus chose one person as the first witness of his resurrection. One person, who was entrusted with spreading this momentous news; a follower whose life is still shrouded by conspiracy, the mysterious Mary Magdalene.   2000 years on, Mary continues to be one of the churches most disputed subjects. Some believe she was a prostitute; many claim she was Jesus’s most devoted disciple and was at the heart of the Christian faith. However, some suggest she was much more.    In Southern France two treasure hunters are pursuing a new lead in their search for her remains, arguably the remains of the most significant woman in history.    Pat Jokl and his friend Ronnie are history enthusiasts who have spent 20 years trying to uncover the whereabouts of Mary Magdalene’s Tomb. After the resurrection, the Bible sheds little light on what happened to her next with many believing she was deliberately written out of history. In this episode we follow Pat Jokl and his team on their biblical treasure hunt, tracing what many believe to be the journey Mary Magdalene took after the resurrection to spread the true word of the Christian faith.   With an unearthed set of 13th century documents from the French archive suggesting a medieval aristocrat stole the Saint’s remains, Pat believes he’s one step closer to finding Mary Magdalene’s burial site in Southern France. Armed with new equipment and this vital lead could this be moment he solves one of the bible’s greatest mysteries? Could this be the moment he finally finds Mary Magdalene?  Cast List:   Pat Jokl  A treasure hunter who has been searching for Mary Magdalene’s remains for over 20 years.    Tony McMahon  A former BBC news producer, award short-listed author, print journalist and historian.   Dr Karen Bellinger   An anthropologist, archaeologist and historian whose work focuses on early modern European culture and society and its colonial expansion throughout the Atlantic world.   Lynn Picknett  A historian and researcher specialising in exposing historical conspiracies, she is co-author to several notable works including “Turin Shroud: How Leonardo da Vinci Fooled History” and “War of the Windsors”  Father Florian Racine  The rector of the Basilica of St. Mary Magdalene church in Saint-Maximin. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In southern France, two treasure hunters are pursuing a new lead in their search for the remains of arguably the most significant woman in history, Mary Magdalene. During our quest, we had lots, of course, lots of dead ends, but this time we are absolutely sure this is the place to be. Pat Jockel and his friend Ronnie are history enthusiasts who've spent 20 years trying to uncover the way. whereabouts of Mary Magdalene's tomb. We think now we pinpointed exactly the lost resting place of Mary Magdalene. Pat's research has unearthed a set of 13th century documents from the French archive, suggesting a medieval aristocrat stole the saint's remains. With this new evidence, Pat believes he's one step closer to finding Mary Magdalene's burial place in southern French.

France and solving one of the Bible's greatest mysteries. It could be the moment to find Mary Magdalene. It means we have got the equipment, we have got the right place. If we find Mary Magdalene, we will rewrite history. If we were able to prove that the remains of a human body were those of Mary Magdalene, that would be an awesome event. I mean, it would prove the veracity of the Bible. The skull found in San Francisco.

maximum is clearly something of great importance. But as to whether it could be Mary Magdalene, I'm pretty skeptical. She's feisty, she's articulate, she's, dare I say controlling? Controlling Jesus. In the era of Me Too, it's time to put Mary Magdalene where she should always have been, front and center of the Bible story. You're listening to Forbidden History, the podcast series that explores the past darkest corners.

sheds light on the lives of intriguing individuals and uncovers the truth buried deep in history's most controversial legacies. I'm Janine Haroni, and this is Finding Mary Magdalene. In this series, we'll delve into the history archives, dig up stories old and new, such as examining the strange life of Peter the Great, revealing the secrets of Nikola Tesla, and uncovering how amazing.

man nearly succeeded in pulling off one of history's greatest hoaxes, the Hitler Diaries. But in this episode, we're looking for one of the most mysterious figures in Christianity, Mary Magdalene. According to all four Gospels, Jesus chose Mary Magdalene as the first witness to the resurrection after his crucifixion. She was entrusted with spreading this momentous news. But after the resurrection, the Bible sheds little light on what happened to her next, with many believing she was deliberately written out of history. Two thousand years on, Mary continues to be one of the church's most disputed subjects. Some believe she was a prostitute. Many claim she was Jesus' most devoted disciple and was at the heart of the Christian faith.

However, some suggest she was much more. For Pat and Ronnie, they have dedicated their lives to finding her remains and revealing the truth. But what is the truth? Who was the real Mary Magdalene? And does her body lay hidden in the south of France waiting to be found? But in order to trace her steps, we must first start at the beginning. The Sea of Galilee Israel, if the Bible is to be believed, is where Mary first met Jesus. When Jesus began his mission, he went from village to village, doing kind of big dramatic stuff first, like casting out demons.

And one of the people that allegedly cast demons out of was the woman that became known as Mary called Magdalene. Historian and author Lynn Picknet has written two best-selling books. books on Mary Magdalene. She's been researching the truth about her for over 30 years and believes if Mary Magdalene had been a man, it would have been a different story. In the early days of the Catholic Church when they were organizing the religion and deciding what was dogma and what wasn't, it became very obvious from all the texts that they had that Mary Magdalene had been a prime mover in the religion from the very beginning. And they couldn't have that.

They didn't want women to find her as a role model. So they had to demean her. They had to basically turn her into the worst thing they could imagine, which was a prostitute. The prostitute moniker, which has become synonymous with Mary Magdalene, began in 591 AD when Pope Gregory the Great gave a sermon which confused Mary Magdalene. Magdalene with two other women in the Bible.

He pronounced that Mary of Bethany and the unnamed sinner in Luke's Gospel were all the same person, Mary Magdalene. Despite the Vatican publicly correcting this error in 1969, her mistaken identity endured throughout popular culture. But following the success of two best-selling books, the 1980s The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, and more recently the Da Vinci Code, there are many who are now willing to shout about her central place in the Bible. So what evidence is there to support Mary Magdalene's significant role in Christianity? Arguably, Mary Magdalene was just as important to the church

as Jesus himself. In the story in the New Testament, Mary Magdalene goes with some of the women to basically tend Jesus' body after the crucifixion, but she turns up on her own in the garden and discovers his body gone and a man she doesn't recognize who turns out to be the resurrected Jesus. But why is Magdalene being the first person to witness Jesus in his resurrected state so important?

The historian, author, and journalist, Tony McMahon, explains. The resurrection is what defines Christianity, its belief in the resurrection, and who is sent to witness that momentous event Mary Magdalene. There is no doubt that she is the most important follower of Jesus. For historians like Tony, the idea that treasure hunters are following new leads in the quest to find her remains is very exciting. If we were able to prove that a human body, the remains of a human body, were those of Mary

Magdalene, that would be an awesome event. I mean, it would prove the veracity of the Bible. But for our treasure hunters, Pat and Ronnie, to begin their search, they must first ascertain what happened to her after the resurrection. However, records of Mary's life after the ascension are shrouded in mystery. Some believe she lived out her days in Ephesus, Turkey. Others claimed she remained in the Holy Land, but many, including some popes,

believe Mary Magdalene fled on a boat crossing the Mediterranean Sea to arrive at the south of France in a town now called Saint-Marie de la Mare. Tony McMahon again. Now, curiously, this boat has no oars, no sails, but somehow manages to go practically in terms. entire length of the Mediterranean. It washes up on the southern coast of France, where Mary Magdalene

makes it to shore and begins her Christian mission among the French. At the time, it is believed France had a large Jewish population, which may explain why Mary and her crew chose to flee there. Dr. Karen Bellinger is an archaeologist and historian. If Mary Magdalene did arrive on the shores of what became known as Saint-Marie de la Merre. Well, that would have been a pretty important catalyst for the spread of Christianity in Europe, because she was, according to all records that we do have of her in the Bible, one of the most energetic proponents of spreading the good news. For some, this theory is a stretch too far, but for treasure hunter Pat Jockel, who after a long drive can finally see the south coast of France, it is conclusive.

We are 100% sure that in this historical area she is buried. Pat is starting his journey in the same place Mary Magdalene allegedly began hers 2,000 years ago. And after 20 years of dedicated research, Pat hopes he will find her and finally solve one of the Bible's greatest enigmas. What happened to Mary Magdalene after the death of Christ? We are now in Saint-Marie de la Merre, according to legend. That was the place Mary Magdalene set foot on land here. This is the starting point of all our research we're doing for so long.

According to all the stuff we've found so far, it's just more than a legend. more than a legend. This is the place where the Christianization of Europe began. Today, Mary Magdalene traveling to the southeast of France is widely considered fact. She is very much revered in the area and still exerts a strong cultural influence with several churches and holy sites in her name, drawing hundreds of pilgrims to worship there every year. Yet for some, the crux of the story is who traveled with her. It is widely believed two other women made the journey on the boat, both called Mary. But in some stories, there's a third woman called Sarah,

and her identity is at the center of the church's biggest conspiracy theory, Tony McMahon. So according to this story of the three Marys and the boat, going across the Mediterranean, they're accompanied in some versions by an Egyptian servant called Sarah, who helps them get to shore. But it is rumored as well that this Sarah may not have been a servant, she may actually have been the daughter of Mary Magdalene and Jesus Christ. In recent years, many more people believe Jesus and Mary Magdalene had children, kicking off a sacred bloodline that mysteriously continues to this day. But was Mary Magdalene, Jesus' wife?

There's some evidence for them actually being in a relationship, but hard evidence for them actually being married? No. Evidence of an alleged relationship was discovered in 1896, when a German scholar happened to come across a curious papyrus. Bound in leather, and written in Coptic, he discovered Gospels that were rejected from the New Testament around the 4th century AD. These are known as the Gnostic Gospels.

They include the Gospels of Philip, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene. In the Gospel according to Philip, he claims Jesus and Mary Magdalene kiss, that they were companions and that he loved her more than any other disciple. This is one of many eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus left out of the Bible. It provides unparalleled insight into their relationship, and many believe this record reveals who the real Mary Magdalene was, Jesus' partner, his equal, and perhaps even a leader. Lynn Picknett again. In these alternative Gospels, the one thing that comes over is that is that we're going to that she is the star.

Obviously, Jesus nominally is the star, but Mary Magdalene takes center stage. She's feisty, she's articulate, she's, dare I say controlling? She seems to be controlling Jesus. According to Lynn's research, Mary is said to have gone to the south of France after the resurrection,

on a mission to continue her work and spread the good news. The extraordinary thing about all the stories about Mary Maitland in the South of France is that they don't notice. It says she baptized, she preached, she officiated at the mass. And so there was Mary on her own, well pretty much on her own, in the South of France, doing what they'd agreed. She was setting up the real Christian church. And if anybody should know what it was, she should.

But did they have a daughter called Sarah, who'd traveled to France with Mary? It is impossible to verify with the current evidence. But this is one of many questions for Pat to investigate if he finds her remains. The first step is finding the hard evidence that Mary Magdalene arrived on the North Mediterranean coast. Having tracked down where she landed, he's tracing her movements inland. Many people believe one of the main hotspot of the resting place of Mary Magdalene is Ren Le Chateau. Since the turn of the 20th century, stories from the mysterious French village, René Le Chateau,

have become entwined with Mary Magdalene and a Roman Catholic priest called Berengen-Sanier. Sonsier is a key figure in the recent consideration. conspiracy theories surrounding the saint. It is widely recognized that his apparent discovery made a mark on history which has fascinated writers, historians, and treasure hunters ever since. In the late 19th century in a tiny hilltop village, Renlishteau, there was a priest called Berger Sohnier who was renovating and it just said that he was he was a priest. found a document in a pillar in the church and indeed a tomb.

A Berengé Sonier became inexplicably rich very quickly. We can't completely rule out that Sonier found the remains of Mary Magdalene and maybe sold it to the church or sold it to some wealthy person who wanted the body of that biblical figure. But we have no evidence, of course. And certainly it's true that there is a genuine mystery connected with Renra Chateau, connected with the 19th century priest, and he was certainly utterly devoted to Mary Magdalene. Over the last 100 years,

the village has become a magnet for treasure hunters like Pat, hoping to find what secret the priest found, and if he hid it somewhere nearby. But is this a place Mary Magdalene is buried? In the past, we were looking for Mary Magdalene in Rennes Chateau, But now, according to our new clues we are in possession right now, we think we were looking in the wrong place. Pat's new evidence suggests Mary Magdalene never traveled west to René La Chateau.

Instead, he now believes she headed east, which is where she apparently lays, hidden in a secret crypt. Pat's uncovered new evidence about the saint's final resting place, which has led him to Saint-Maximon, home of the Basilica de Santa Maria Magdalene. So this is the Basilica of San Maximine. Some say it contains the skull of Mary Magdalene. Pat has discovered a letter written to the Pope, dating from 1279. It declares that the body of Mary Magdalene,

was found here in a secret crypt. Father Florian Racine is the rector of the basilica. He invites Pat to join him in the church's crypt, where a shrine to Mary Magdalene displays a skull encased in a golden reliquary of flowing locks of hair. We have the head, the skull of St. Mary Magdalene. We know that it's a little strange to expose like that, the part of a dead person, like here a school, but still when people pray here,

they have some kind of access, a special access to Mary Magdalene. According to local folklore, after arriving in France, Mary Magdalene traveled 100 miles east to the area today known as Saint-Maxon, where she lived out her days, preaching in a cave for 30 years. But how can we be sure this is the real skull of Mary Magdalene? Tony McMahon again. Nearby, St. Maximum is a grotto that's still revered as a place where Mary Magdalene prayed and maybe even lived, and it's still a focus point for the prayerful, for the pious, to go and share their love for Mary Magdalene. We knew Mary Magdalene lived, the dependence and contemplation of Jesus in the grotto, but we didn't know where she was buried.

Over a thousand years after her death, Charles II, Count of Provence and King of Naples, was convinced Saint Maximon was the last resting place of the saint, so he commissioned a team to dig. In the year 1279, there were excavations conducted in the crypt of Saint Maximon by orders of Charles II and Count of Provin. And they found a marble sarcophagus dating back to the first century AD. And when they opened the sarcophagus, the sweet smell came out of it. And what was that sweet smell?

It was the oil, of course, that Mary Magdalene poured onto the feet of Jesus. What more proof did you need that Mary Magdalene was buried there? The church claims that when the skull was discovered in the Middle Ages, a piece of skin on the forehead had miraculously survived intact. They believe that this is where Jesus had placed his hand on Mary after his crucifixion. Father Racine again. This piece of skin was touched by the reasoned Lord, so it's a sign. It's a sign of the resurrection.

I truly believe that we have here the relics of Mary Magdalene. And I cannot prove it historically because we don't have anything written from that time. But I can experience in this place there is a special blessing, grace, presence of Mary Magdalene. While people of the cloth dare not question the veracity of the skull, some scholars have their doubts and call into question why the church has refused for the skull to undergo carbon testing. Archaeologist Karen Bellinger again. The skull found in St. Maximum is clearly something of, great importance to those who venerate religious relics.

But as to whether it could be tied to any individual, much less Mary Magdalene, I'm pretty skeptical. Call me an old cynic, but I don't think that is Mary Magdalene. But in a way, it doesn't matter. It's what people believe, and it's a focus for their great love of her. They see her as somebody worth revering. not just a pathologically sobbing prostitute.

Some even suggest an ulterior motive behind the supposed discovery of the saint, Tony McMahon. What you have to remember is that pilgrims were the tourists over the Middle Ages. And if you're an abbey, if you're a monastery, and you just happen to chance upon the relics of an apostle or a saint, that is big business. And goodness me, if you've got Mary Magdalene, well, you know, Kaching, you're in the big time. For treasure hunter Pat, the medieval story of the skull holds some truth. He has evidence that Mary Magdalene was dug up in Saint Maximon, but the body was stolen.

If correct, the skull in the golden sarcophagus at Saint-Maximon is an imposter. But could the real skull of Mary Magdalene, found by Charles II, have been taken and hidden in an unconstitutional? hidden in an undiscovered tomb. For me, there's no question that they found the body of Meramegdalen on this place, but if it's still there, or if it was moved to another place, this is still the question. Armed with new evidence, Pat is hoping he can finally unlock the 2,000-year riddle, and find the elusive saints remains. The new evidence is a medieval letter to the Pope.

This is the copy, and you can see Beata Maria Magdaleneum Habemus in Ecclesiam et Prioryatum Sancti Maximini. So that would be translated. We are in possession of Mary Magdalene in the Church of the Priory of Saint Maximine. For Pat, this document proves Mary Magdalene was found by Charles II in Saint-Maximon. But it also mentions a second name, someone capable of pulling off theft

on a biblical scale. According to the documents we found, Charles II, he ordered on the 21st of May, 1293, his Seneschal de Provence, to protect the excavation side of Mary Magdalene and keep away the unbelievers and not to steal anything from the excavation site.

Ucte Vosan was Charles II's number two, a wealthy landowner and military man. He would have known the power of the relics of Mary Magdalene. For Pat, the French nobleman did far more than just protect the body of the saint. We think Ucte Vonsan took the body to reinforce his power in this region and his this area. So that's why we think he brought the whole body to his hometown and hid it in a

small church, which is dedicated to Mary Magdalene today. Archaeologist Karen Bellinger again. Pat Jockel has a theory that French nobleman, Hughes de Frossin in the 13th century removed these remains from St. Maximum and reinterred them. Now, this is actually not at all far-fetched, as strange as it might sound. I mean, there is a really well-established tradition in the medieval period of moving remains if they were particularly valued. For example, the remains of a saint.

If Pat's idea is right, Danuk de Vazon moved Mary Magdalene's relics over 200 miles to a small church in a village called Paison. The Chapel of Paisan states to about the 10th century, but archaeological digs nearby show a possibility of over 2,000 years of religious activity in this site. Pat's research has uncovered that Pezon, in medieval times, was originally known as Vasson, indicating that the village was ruled by the potential relic thief. And surprisingly, in the crypt of Saint Maximon, he discovers some writing which says Vazons. To Pat, this is a huge clue.

But this isn't the only sign he spotted in Saint-Maximon. Pat has been following an ancient symbol known as the arched cross. And according to Pat, Ube de Vazons used the arched cross to mark the movements of Mary Magdalene's body. We don't think this is just ancient graffiti. We think this is a map. So we think those arched crosses will lead to the final resting place of Mary Magdalene. Treasure hunters who are out there looking for Mary Magdalene could well be on to something.

In the south of France there are lots of clues about her. Confident that the arched crosses are a secret medieval code marking the tomb of Jesus' most devoted follower. Pat and his fellow treasure hunter Ronnie traveled to Peasant, armed with modern technology hoping to hit the biblical jackpot. If we find Merrimackdalen, we will rewrite history. When amateur archaeologists Pat and Ronnie arrive at their destination, it's difficult not to acknowledge how small and unassuming the chapel is, almost insignificant.

It's located on the side of a road where hundreds of people drive by every single day, blissfully unaware of the precious treasure it is hoped to conceal, the bones of Mary Magdalene. This chapel is called Chapel Romain de la Madeline, or Chapel of the Magdalene. Could that be a smoking gun? No, not at all.

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of chapels named exactly the same thing throughout this area of southern France. But for Pat and Ronnie, Standing outside the chapel in Paisonne, X marks the spot. Wow, this is... Look, this is... This is the arched... Cross.

Wow. The symbol of the arched cross they've been tracking since Saint-Maximon is all over the chapel. And that's not all. There. Ah! Ronnie. The coat of arms... of the family de Vosin.

See? This church belonged to Huyk de Vosin. No doubt about that. See? We were right. Heavenly, yeah. The chapel appears to be smothered in secret symbology.

Tony McMahon again. So what he was doing, Yuz de Voisin, with these crude symbols, etched into the walls, was essentially leaving clues to future generations so they could find her body. If Pat's hunch is correct, beneath the chapel's floor is a secret burial chamber.

Armed with modern survey equipment, Pat and Ronnie set out to run a non-invasive survey using a magnetometer. Archaeologist Karen Bellinger A magnetometer is one of the most useful devices that archaeologists use to basically look underground without digging and see what's there. So what this machine is doing is to measure the density of the soil. It can see if the soil was once disturbed or if someone buried something or if there is a void underneath. After 20 years of research, armed with their tech, today Pat and Ronnie have gained special permission to carry out the survey inside the ancient chapel. Wow, Ronnie, look at that.

A very old church. Yeah. Look at the arches. Great. She might be buried here. Let's scan. Okay. This is the moment of truth. Ronnie carefully walks up and down in lines across the chapel's floor, holding the magnetometer, which detects how the ground below reacts to a magnetic field.

I mean, can you imagine the excitement that there is in that chapel as they are scanning, the floor of this medieval building to finally find out if the body of Mary Magdalene is deep down below. This is nerve-wracking. Ronnie is doing the scanning today because he has got a very steady hand. We can't afford to make any mistakes. After just minutes, the scan is complete. Once processed, it will create an image of what's underneath.

Back at their hotel, They anxiously stare at a laptop awaiting the results. We just transferred the data from the device to the computer, and this turns the data into visible results. If Pat's right, the results will show a secret crypt below the chapel, where perhaps Mary Magdalene has laid hidden for centuries. Look. We've done it.

We've done it. For Pat, the results are conclusive. And after a celebratory hug, he's excited to share the results show that there is a void underneath the chapel. Yeah, after 20 years of research, this reading shows we are right. There is something underneath. Clearly you can see on this image the color blue.

And blue, a blue reading always shows a low, density of the ground so that shows clearly that there is a void exactly where it should be so in front of the altar it's very very likely that in this church in this void whatever it is the remains of Merrimackdalen are buried yes could Pat really have found the grave of Jesus's most devoted follower I I don't believe that the magnetometer scan shows a grave. However, I think it's quite likely that at least one individual is buried in this chapel, if not actually under that altar.

But whether it's Mary Magdalene, anyone's guess. But impossible to know without excavating to see what's actually there. To prove his theory, further work is needed before the treasure hunter can finally claim to hold the remains of Mary Magdalene. Next step would be we need to dig and we need to confirm what the machine picked up. Of course it could be a natural cave, but it could be also the crypt. But for now, this is the best result we could get. But after 20 years, has this result been worth it?

Yeah, I feel great. I will go with pet even takes another 20 years. As long as I'm alive, I will never give up. looking for Mary Magdalene's remains. If the Bible is correct, some 2,000 years ago, Mary Magdalene walked the earth with Christ, prostitute, wife, or just devout follower. She's left behind a legacy that many would argue is second to none.

In the era of Me Too, it's time to put Mary Magdalene where she should always have been, have been front and center of the Bible story. However, skeptics doubt if we will ever know for sure if we've found the Saints remains. Honestly, it's entirely possible that somebody somewhere, someday, will find the remains of the woman who was Mary Magdalene. Will we be able to identify her as such? Almost certainly not. time on Forbidden History.

There are spies running around the world, bumping each other off, literally, bumping other off, just as we see, you know, in Len Dayton books, Ian Fleming books. We pull back the Iron Curtain to reveal the secret world of the Cold War spy, Boris Voladarski. Every secret service of every Soviet satellite country were under complete control of the Russian KGB. And reveal how recently uncovered documents have linked bulldozeries. Bulgaria's service seven to the most famous unsolved murder of the Cold War, Georgie Markov. Someone walked up to him with a poisoned umbrella into his leg.

Four days later, he was dead. In The Murder Bureau. Forbidden History was a Like a Shot entertainment production. Produced by Kara O'Brien, Executive Producers Henry Scott, Steve Gillum, and Doug. Gillam and Danny O'Brien. Edit and sound design by James McGee and Liam Clayton for Arafon Limited.