Forbidden History - Hidden Tomb: Tracing a Saint

Episode Date: January 9, 2025

In this episode of the Forbidden History podcast, we look into the life of Mary Magdalene, the Saint who played a pivotal role in early Christianity and witnessed the execution and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We speak with experts to investigate the truth behind her mysterious disappearance and embark on a quest to locate her undiscovered remains. Cast List:  Lynn Picknett: Historian and researcher specialising in exposing historical conspiracies. She is also the co-author of several notable works Dr. Peggy Brunache: Historian, archaeologist and lecturer at University of Glasgow Dominic Selwood: Historian, barrister, bestselling author, novelist and frequent contributor to national newspapers including The Independent, The Spectator and The Daily Telegraph Bena Mantel: Archaeologist  Tony McMahon: Former BBC news producer, author, print journalist and historian  Dr Andrew Boakye: Lecturer in Religions & Theology at the University of Manchester  Dr. Karen Bellinger: Anthropologist, archaeologist, and historian  Patrick Jokl: History Enthusiast & Researcher Peter Stanford: Journalist & Author Father Florian Racine: Priest & Rector   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Forbidden History Podcast. This program is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It contains mature adult themes. Listener discretion is advised. According to stories in the Bible, Mary Magdalene is at the heart of the Christian faith. She was perhaps Jesus' most devoted disciple. After Jesus, Mary Magdalene is arguably the most important person in the New Testament. Why?

Because she is the wish. witness to the resurrection. Yet her role in the religion has been debated for centuries. She's feisty, she's articulate, she's, dare I say, controlling? Controlling Jesus. But what happened to Mary Magdalene after Christ's death is still one of the world's biggest enigmas, with a number of theories and conspiracies still very much alive today.

What is the truth? Does Mary Magdalene's body still lay hidden somewhere, waiting to be found? The Bible claims Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus's most devoted followers, but some suggest she was much more. Mary Magdalene is one of the most fascinating, kind of mysterious figures in the whole of Western civilization. And that's true whether you are a Christian or not. Yet in the 2000 years since her death, Mary's story has always has always been an unsolved mystery. Scholars and amateurs alike

are still trying to crack the code of who she really was and the whereabouts of her tomb, the Sea of Galilee. If the biblical story is accurate, this is where Mary first met Jesus. We don't know too much about Mary's initial meeting with Jesus. What we do know is that she was possessed by, we're told seven demons,

People who were demon-possessed lived on the very margins of society. The Bible claims Jesus cast out the seven demons from within Mary. From that day, most agree she became a fanatical follower of Christ. But perhaps Mary's most defining moment occurs after the crucifixion. Benham-Mantel is exploring the garden tomb in Jerusalem, investigating why Mary Magdalene's remains are so highly coveted. The garden tomb is sort of ground zero for the Christians of the world in terms of the most important events in the life of Mary Magdalene. According to legend, Jesus was placed here after his crucifixion.

Three days later, Mary Magdalene and a group of disciples visit the crypt and discover the stone door rolled open with the tomb empty. They start to wander what happened to the body. And when people leave, Mary is still there wondering what's happening next. And then she sees a person. And in fact, she realizes and discovers that this is Jesus. And she is the first one to see Jesus after the crucifixion. The fact that Jesus first revealed himself in his resurrected state to Mary Magdalene is hugely significant.

he chose a woman to reveal this absolutely thunderous fact too. There would be no Christian movement but for the witnesses. And the first of those witnesses, according to all four of the Gospels, is Mary Magdalene. Yet despite playing such a pivotal role, the story of Mary Magdalene has become muddied over the millennia. Mary's name has been tarnished by religious leaders. going back as far as the sixth century. In fact, it was Pope Gregory the Great, who was the first to claim that Mary was a prostitute. I think Mary Magdalene's position has been marginalised, yet if you read the Bible, it's

perfectly obvious, she is a central figure. After centuries of slander, attempting to determine fact from fiction is difficult. Yet Mary's relationship with Jesus might be the key to finding her final resting place. Through the ages, Jesus' relationship with Mary Magdalene has fascinated people. There is the Gospel of Philip, which records how Jesus loved Mary more than any other of the disciples and used to kiss her on the mouth. The Gospel of Philip is one of many eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus left out of the Bible. For those hunting for Mary's tomb, these less conventional gospels provide an unparalleled

insight into who the saint really was. In these alternative gospels, the one thing that comes over is that she is the star. She's feisty, she's articulate, she's, dare I say controlling? She seems to be controlling Jesus. Intriguingly, the idea of Mary Magdalene controlling Jesus could suggest a very unique relationship, providing clues on why her remains have disappeared. We see a very special relationship that Jesus has with Mary Magdalene, something that could in fact even lead us to think

that Mary Magdalene was in a relationship with Jesus, perhaps his wife. There's a small army of biblical scholars and theologians that will snort at the idea that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus. They'll tell you there's no evidence whatsoever, but it is a rumor, a story and angle that refuses to go away. Whether she was a devout follower or lover, to find Mary Magdalene's remains, scholars must unravel what happened to her after Christ's death. But records of her life after the ascension are shrouded in mystery. Mary Magdalene effectively disappears from the gospel record after

the resurrection and the ascension, and all sorts of legends build up. The real question of what happens to Mary after the crucifixion, it's really anyone's guess. And there are a lot of people who throughout the ages actually said that Mary somehow found her way to France. We even have certain popes who actually say that Mary actually ended up in France. Many historians believe that after the crucifixion, Mary, like all of Christ's followers, were persecuted by their pagan Roman overlords. Fearing for their lives, many fled the Holy Land.

So in the aftermath of crucifixion, followers of Jesus were being rounded up by the Romans. So Mary Magdalene and two or three other women flee on a boat. Known as the tale of the three Marys, believers claim Mary Magdalene. boarded a boat in Israel with two other women, also named Mary. They traveled the entire length of the Mediterranean Sea, landing at Saint-Marie de la Merre in the south of France. If Mary Magdalene did arrive on the shores of what became known as Saint-Marie de la Merre, well, that would have been a pretty important catalyst for the spread of Christianity in Europe,

because she was one of the most energetic proponents. of spreading the good news. If Mary Magdalene did land on the beaches, what it signifies is the extension of what is to become Christianity, but led by a woman. Though the story of Mary Magdalene traveling to France has little grounding in historical texts, scholars point to how the saint is still revered in the country as evidence.

Mary Magdalene has always been a very popular figure in France. There are a very significant number of ecclesiastical buildings, churches, abbeys named after her, a huge number of villages and towns. Even after the decline of Catholicism in France, she remains a very popular figure. Mary Magdalene is revered in some parts of the south of France and still exerts a very strong cultural influence. And many, particularly from the Catholic tradition, still very much treat those sites where it's believed she went to as how much. holy sites and as places of pilgrimage and veneration. Today, many in the church considerate fact that Mary Magdalene traveled to France.

Yet for some, the crux of the story is who traveled with her. In the account of the journey across the Mediterranean, we're told that the women were accompanied by another woman called Sarah. Now, this woman, according to some people, was a servant, but according to others, She was the daughter of Mary Magdalene and Jesus Christ. In recent years, thanks to two best-selling books, one in the 1980s, Holy Ghost, Holy Grill, and one more recently, the Da Vinci Code,

many, many more people think Jesus and Mary Magdalene had children and basically kicked off this sacred bloodline that mysteriously continues to this day. But perhaps Mary Magdalene had children, Perhaps Mary and her supposed daughter weren't the only people in the boat. Some believe Christ himself was smuggled out of the Holy Land too. It's amazing. Can you imagine how it feels to be in exact the same spot 2,000 years ago the Holy Family landed.

So maybe we would find one day this particular spot where Jesus is buried as well. There's a whole series of narratives about Mary and Jesus are looping to France with a baby. It raises all sorts of fascinating ideas, which is kind of enticing and it fuels legends. It fuels dramas. It fuels films. Since the turn of the 20th century, one seemingly inconsequential French village has become entwined with the legend of Mary Magdalene and a mysterious modern-day priest. You can't really talk about the whole story of Mary Magdalene in the south of France without touching on Renla Chateau.

In the late 19th century in a tiny hilltop village, Renla Chateau, there was a priest called Berges Sorenier who was renovating the church. And he just said that he found a document in a pillar in the church, connected with Mary Magdalene. For some people, he discovered proof that Jesus and Mary had been married, and they had a bloodline. According to legend, the priest blackmailed the Vatican with the secret he had found, then almost overnight he became inexplicably rich. We can't completely rule out that Soniae found the remains of Mary Magdalene

and maybe sold it to the church or sold it to some wealthy person who wanted the body of that biblical figure. But we have no evidence, of course. And certainly it's true that there is a genuine mystery connected with Renra Chateau, connected with the 19th century priest, and he was certainly utterly devoted to Mary Magdalene. Over the last 100 years, the village has become a magnet for treasure hunters and tourists alike.

Yet to this day, no trace of the priest's treasure or the source of his wealth have been found. In southern France, Pat Yackel is on the hunt for the tomb of Mary Magdalene. He's uncovered new evidence about the same. final resting place, which has led him to San Maximon, home of the Basilica of St. Mary Magdalene. Pat has discovered a letter written to a medieval pope in a church archive. Dating from 1295, it claims that the body of Mary Magdalene was found here in a secret crypt. Father Florian Racine is the rector of the basilica.

the skull of Mary Magdalene. The church believes this skull is from the body described in Pat's letter. We know that it's a little strange to expose like that the part of a dead person, but when people pray here, they have some kind of special access to Mary Magdalene. According to local folklore,

after arriving in France, Mary Magdalene traveled 100 miles east. There is a story that when Mary Magdalene did land in southeastern France, she went further inland and ended up in what is known as St. Maximum. She continued with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the last of her years were spent in a grotto. Nearby to St. Maximum is a grotto that's still revered as a place where Mary Magdalene prayed and maybe even lived.

And it's still a focus point for the prayerful, for the pious to go and share their love for Mary Magdalene. We knew Mary Magdalene lived the penance and contemplation of Jesus in the grotto, but we didn't know where she was buried. At the time Pat's letter was written, legend has it that Charles II was visited by the saint in a dream, where she instructed him to hunt for her. her remains. After the ghostly vision, Charles instructed his men to search the area for a secret

crypt. So finally, after a few years of searching, they were digging like that, and boom, they dig, you know, they fell the sarcophagus. In the year 1279, there were excavations conducted in Saint Maximum by orders of Charles II in Count of Provence. They found a marble sarcophagus dating back to the first century AD. And when they opened the sarcophagus, the sweet smell came out of it. And what was that sweet smell? It was the oil, of course, that Mary Magdalene poured onto the feet of Jesus. What more proof did you need that Mary Magdalene was buried there? The church is adamant that this is the skull of Mary Magdalene. They claim when the skull was found in the Middle Ages, a piece of skin was still attached to it.

miraculously preserved from the moment Jesus touched Mary's forehead. Today, the Basilica of Saint Maximon has been built on the spot where Mary Magdalene was apparently found. Many claim it was funded by the sale of some of her body parts as relics. In Europe, most big cathedral of the big cities, they have different relics of Mary Magdalene. Probably, I said probably, given by the monks here, for some money to build this beautiful basilica. While the church doesn't question the veracity of the skull, some scholars have their doubts.

Call me an old cynic, but I don't think that is Mary MacDillan. But in a way it doesn't matter. It's what people believe and it's a focus for their great love of her. They see her as somebody world earth revering. The skull found in St. Maximum is clearly something of great importance to those who venerate religious relics.

But as to whether it could be tied to any individual, much less Mary Magdalene, I'm pretty skeptical. Could the skull of Mary Magdalene really be in this crypt? Or does other evidence point to her final resting place being elsewhere? suggests an ulterior motive behind the supposed discovery of the saint. We mustn't forget that the time that Charles II of France allegedly found Mary Magdalene's relics, that was a huge time for the relic industry in general. And Mary Magdalene being big in the south of France anyway, she was the ultimate Christian saint to find a relic of.

What you have to remember is that if you're an abbey, if you're a monastery, and you just happen to chance upon the relics of an apostle or a saint. That is big business. You know, you're going to attract pilgrims from all over Europe and the world. Goodness me, if you've got Mary Magdalene, well, you know, ka-ching, you're in the big time. If you look at St. Maximum today, it is relatively small place, dominated by its basilica and dominated by the legend of Mary Magdalene.

And, you know, you don't have to be cynical to think, there was this big pilgrimage trade which generated money. It was all a kind of generating industry. Pat believes the letter he has backs up the legend that Mary's body was found in this town. However, he thinks the skull in the golden sarcophagus is a fake and her real remains lie hidden elsewhere. For me, there's no question that they found the body of Merrimackdalen

on this place. but it could be that this skull was replaced by someone to took it to another secret location. According to Pat, the 13th century document he discovered refers to someone who had access to the treasured relics and could have moved them without raising any suspicion. On this Latin document you see Hugoni Devincini, which is the Latin name of Ute Vonsin.

I think he took the body to his hometown. With this new evidence, Pat is hoping he can finally unlock the 2,000-year-old mystery and find Mary Magdalene's remains. If you find Mary Magdalene, we will rewrite history. It's always possible that we're just looking in the wrong place for the remains of Mary Magdalene. We don't really know what happened to her after the resurrection of Jesus. Believing she traveled to France, Pat Yackel and fellow amateur archaeologist Ronnie Endler are following leads others may have missed. They have found a medieval letter to the Pope in an archive, which they believe shed some

new light on what happened to Mary Magdalene's body. For Pat, this document proves Mary Magdalene was found by the Count of this province, Charles II, in Sam Maximum. But it also mentions a second name, someone who had access to the body and could have moved it. So according to the documents, Charles II, he ordered his Seneschal de Provence, Ucter de Vosin, to protect the excavation site of Merrimackdalene and keep away the unbelievers and not to steal anything from the excavation site.

As Charles II's enforcer, Uge de Voisin was a wealthy landowner and knight. He would have understood the power the relics of Mary Magdalene commanded. Uge de Voisin was such a tiny character in history. There's no pictures of him, there's very little writing about him or about his life. But what we do know could suggest that he played a pivotal role in one of the greatest Christian mysteries. For Pat, the French nobleman did far more than just protect the body of Mary Magdalene. Pat believes that fearing either theft or destruction of the holy relics, Ugg de Voisin hid the body.

So we think Ute d'Vosin took the body because once someone came in possession of a holy relic, he would have more power in this region. I think he brought bits and pieces, if not the whole body, to his hometown and hid it in a small church, which is dedicated to Mary Magdalene today. If Pat's correct, Ube de Voisin moved Mary Magdalens' relics over 200 miles to a small church in a village today known as Peissonne. The Chapel of Pezanne dates to about the 10th century, but archaeological digs nearby show the possibility of over 2,000 years of religious activity in this site.

According to Pat's research, back in medieval times this town was called Voisin, after its patriarch, Ugg de Voisin. But the real smoking gun is the name etched into the wall of the crypt at Sam Maxima, where Mary Magdalene was supposedly found. We found, surprisingly, in the crypt of San Maximin, a writing which says Vosan. To Pat, this graffiti tells him both who took the relics and the village where they're hidden. But that's not all. Connected by a line is another secret symbol, which he thinks is a medieval trail of breadcrumbs,

leading to the saint's secret tomb. We are tracking down an arched cross. The Christians always used it to pinpoint. Look, here is buried a holy person. Pat believes this graffiti is a secret code left by Ube de Voisin, telling future generations where he hid Mary Magdalene's remains. And to our surprise, we went to Passan and we found exactly this arched cross. Exactly. It's like a copy of the one in the crypt.

We don't think this is just ancient graffiti. We think this is a map. We think those are the map. Those arched crosses will lead to the final resting place of Mary Magdalene. The theory that French nobleman, Hughes de Frossin in the 13th century, removed these remains from St. Maximum and re-interred them in a chapel at Paisant. Now, this is actually not at all far-fetched, as strange as it might sound. I mean, there is a really well-established tradition in the medieval period of moving. remains if they were particularly valued.

For example, the remains of a saint. Treasure hunters who are out there looking for Mary Magdalene could well be onto something. In the south of France there are lots of clues about the real Mary Magdalene. We are now at Peson, and this is the chapel Marie Madeline, and we think Marie Madeline is buried inside here. Today they will try to verify their theory

that medieval aristocrat Uge de Voisin moved the saints' remains from where they were originally discovered and secretly hid them under this chapel. To have that opportunity to finally put boots on the ground and do some survey on a site that you've spent years researching is so exciting. Ah, the coat of arms of the family de Vosain. This church belonged to Uge de Vonson. Pat and Ronnie have been tracking a symbol known as the arched cross. Look, Ronnie, this is exactly the same sign.

This is the arched cross, exactly like in the Maximine. The chapel appears to be covered in the secret symbols. So what Yusufuazam was doing with these crude symbols etched into the walls was essentially leaving clues to future generations so they could find her body. If Pat's hunch is correct, Beneath the chapel's floor is a secret burial chamber. When you see this very small chapel today, hundreds of people drive by it every single day.

It's almost insignificant. But imagine if it actually holds the bones of Mary Magdalene. This chapel is called Chapel of the Magdalene. Could that be a clue? To prove his theory, Pat is planning a non-invasive survey using a magnetometer. So what this machine is doing is to measure the density of the soil. So it can see if the soil was once disturbed

or if someone buried something or if there is a void underneath. Archaeological tools such as this are non-destructive geophysical methods to understand what's underground, to locate voids that are. may have been used for burial sites. After 20 years of research, armed with his technology, today Pat has gained special access from the local authorities

to carry out a survey of the chapel's floor. The machine detects how the ground below reacts to a magnetic field. Once processed, it will create an image of what's underneath. After all, those years of research, we're finally here. This is the moment of truth. Pat, we have finished the scan. Great. Okay. We just transferred the data from the device to the computer.

Pat's hoping the results show a secret crypt below the chapel. We've done it. We've done it. For Pat, the results are conclusive. After 20 years of research, this reading shows we are right. There is something underneath. It's very, very likely that... In this church, in this void, whatever it is, the remains of Merrimackdalen are buried, yes.

Could Pat really have found the grave of Jesus' most devoted follower? The results to me look like the detection of spaces in between rock or solid ground. So that could have been either a space intentionally carved out or a natural, cave. It definitely means that there's a void underneath the chapel. Yet some believe the results are far from certain. These results indicate some sort of magnetic anomaly in this chapel, but it does not, to my eye, suggest the presence of a grave of any kind. While some agree the results support Pat's theory, further work is needed before he can finally uncover the remains of Mary Magdalene.

Pat would need to obtain permits to dig beneath the church, which could take years. Yeah, next step would be we need to dig and we need to confirm what the machine picked up. It could be natural, of course it could be a natural cave, but it could be also the crypt. But for now, this is the best result we could get. If the biblical story is correct, some 2,000 years ago, Mary Magdalene was walk the earth with Christ. She's left behind a legacy that many would argue is second to none. Mary Magdalene is certainly the most important woman in the New Testament.

She's also arguably one of the most important women in history, largely because of the way she was reacted against, and that informed the way certainly the Catholic Church behaved towards women for two millennia. If we were able to prove that remains of a human body, were those of Mary Magdalene, that would prove the veracity of the Bible. If Mary Magdalene's remains were found and verified, this would be a momentous occasion. I do find an interest in people who are still searching for the remains of Mary Magdalene.

I think for many of them, it will be a concrete fact of what has been based in faith. for so long. Skeptics doubt if we will ever know for sure if we've found the Saints remains. Honestly, it's entirely possible that somebody somewhere, someday will find the remains of the woman who was Mary Magdalene. Will we be able to identify her as such? Almost certainly not. Regardless, intrigue lingers to this day. It's fascinating that in the 20th century, when we have conspiracy theories that cover everything, from microchips in vaccines to vapor trails, probably the most widely known conspiracy theory in the world centers on Mary Magdalene. If you want to know my opinion as to where exactly Mary Magdalene is buried, I think the most

likely answer would be she's probably buried in the Holy Land. So to all those treasure hunters, let's just first make sure that we're not missing something directly below our noses here in the Holy Land. But for some, the search continues. It's great. It's amazing. But we need to take another step now, dig. This will be a hard piece of work. But, yeah, it came so far.

I feel great. I will go with pets even takes another 20 years. As long as I'm alive, I will never give up looking for merrimactinous remains.