Forbidden History - The Deadly Montana Prison Siege | Where Did Everyone Go?

Episode Date: April 27, 2025

Enter Montana’s infamous penitentiary and hear the explosive story of a tense siege, the firing of bazookas and a maverick warden.  -- Bringing you a bonus episode from a brand new podcast from the Like A Shot network. Join historian Sascha Auerbach, and comedian Tom Ward, as they reveal the incredible stories behind eerie ghost towns, ruined mansions, forgotten factories, crumbling castles, wartime relics, haunted prisons, and much more. 'Where Did Everyone Go? Histories of the Abandoned' is an entertaining journey into the world’s most remarkable abandoned places. If you enjoyed this episode, search for ‘Where Did Everyone Go?’ on your favourite podcast platform and be sure to follow for more episodes. Or click here to follow.  — Hosts: Sascha Auerbach, Tom Ward Producer: Lewis Rumbol Assistant Producer: Alice Chuter Editor: Chris Scott “Where Did Everyone Go? Histories of the Abandoned” is a recorded ‘as live’ podcast presented by comedian Tom Ward and historian Sascha Auerbach. Together they discuss abandoned things and places. Please be aware this is an unscripted discussion and whilst we try to ensure historic and factual accuracy, this isn’t always possible and as such ‘facts’ discussed may be the views and opinions of the presenters and should not be relied upon for historical accuracy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi listeners, today we wanted to bring you an episode from a brand new podcast from the Like a Shot Network. Where did everyone go? Histories of the Abandoned. Here from historian Sasha Alaback and comedian Tom Ward as they reveal the incredible stories behind fascinating abandoned places around the world. We hope you enjoy this episode. Okay, today we have a prison and what happened here is truly wild. we have a daring attempt from the inmates to murder the warden and a 36-hour siege which ends with the National Guard

firing bazookas at the structure in an attempt to free hostages. Well, sometimes bazookas is all what you got? You know, I used to have those little green army men when I was a kid and the one with the bazooka was my favorite. I couldn't tell you why. There was just something about his pose. Yeah, the two. He just looked like he meant business.

Yeah, you don't mess with that guy. This is Where'd Everyone go with me, Sasha Auerbach. And me, Tom Ward, a journey into the weird history of abandoned places. So this being the National Guard, I'm guessing this is America? Yes, we're in a small town called Deer Lodge in the great state of Montana. Okay. So the first thing I noticed from the video is how much the prison dominates a small town. It really sticks out at the end of a main street. Yeah, from some angles, it looks like a cow.

hassle or a fort, but from others, it could be a train depot or a train station. It's not your classic looking prison, that's for sure. Yeah. And behind the walls, there's a building with a, well, lovely facade and stone columns. Again, not your usual prison type arrangement. But you do have the typical prison stuff too, like the basketball court, the guard towers, the corners. And inside, you can see the rows of cells, a canteen, a chapel, and a TV room. Okay, then Sasha, this is obviously an old prison. Where did everyone go?

Where did everyone go? Well, let's start at the beginning. 1871. This structure was originally built to tame the Wild West and rid Montana of the bandits and vigilantes and other scum who were leaving a path of death and destruction. Now, originally it was a 28-cell territorial prison because Montana was a territory at that point, not a state,

But by 1889, it had expanded to house 198 men and it became the Montana State Prison. Okay. And this is when a warden called Frank Conley begins his reign. He's one of those large-than-life characters who really became a legend in this town. He arrives in Deer Lodge in 1886 as a 22-year-old deputy sheriff from eastern Montana. He soon enrolls as a guard at the prison and then in less than four years he rises all the to the top to become the prison warden. So do you think you'd make a good prison warden, Tom?

Hang on, 26 by the time he's Chief Warden, that seems to be quite young for that game. You'd imagine it was a kind of old, gnarly bloke kind of game. It's the 19th century, you know. People have to grow up fast. Oh, okay. Especially in the Wild West. Oh, so 26 is basically 40 in old money. Something like that, yeah.

Right, yeah, yeah. Okay. Would I make a good warden? Probably not. I'm too relaxed. also I can't stand the sound of basketball yeah that would be a that would be a disadvantage yeah there's some kids who play basketball opposite my house

I want to I want them dead and prisons are very drafty places you seem like you'd be made uncomfortable by strong by a draft yeah I grew up in quite a cold environment so really emotionally emotionally yeah so I'm used to all that that's the only element I would like actually well maybe maybe you could do it just you know make your heart a stone yeah

Would you be a good prison warden? Yeah, no, no, because I don't like those metal trays that they serve the food on. Right. I find them distressing. Is it because they're reflective? You have to say yourself from underneath. I don't want to see myself after I ate my mashed potatoes. There's something about the separation of the foods.

Like it's the opposite of OCD. I get very upset by the fact that the different stuff over there. Like, I mean, what order do you eat it in? Like, does it matter? Do you have to go clockwise, counterclockwise? Well, you're the warden. Surely you can get a plate. You can ask for a plate, no?

Oh, that's a good point. You'd have privileges. Ranked a half his privileges. Plate privileges. So, let's go back to Frank Conley, who was known for his unorthodox practices. And one of them was inviting prisoners to his office for meetings where they could air their grievances to him in person. Very civilized. Very civilized.

Very civilized. Ruling by consensus. For years, this policy worked in Conley's favor, right? Because the prisoners had an outlet for their unhappiness. but one day it backfired. Four men attacked him in his office, the leader wielding a knife. Now, Connolly quickly drew his colt revolver, which he always kept in his desk drawer, and fired multiple shots of his assailants. But he hit them in the body and they managed to fatally slit the throat of his deputy and slash Connolly himself across his neck and chest before they were subdued.

Subdued. I mean you try and treat people on a level and then they do this it seems to be you know come on yeah he's treating you with respect guys what you know but in all fairness you know it's America probably like everybody has a pistol in their desk drawer yeah you know person behind the shop counter your kindergarten teacher you know it's just sure it's kind of a canned up place yeah you're a fool not to now but back in the I mean he was trying to do the right thing he was trying to treat you know be democratic and listen to them and then this

Yeah, you know, what can you do? Give them an inch, they take a mile. Now, Connolly was lucky to be alive. One of the slashes came within an eighth of an inch of his jugular vein, and he required 103 stitches. Wow. One eighth of an inch? That's the margin between surviving and not surviving. That's, I mean, that's not actually any space between. No, no, no. So it's just right next to the... Just right next to him. Very lucky guy.

Yeah. As were the inmates who got shot, well, at least initially, they were lucky. They survived. Conley waited for them to heal up and then sentence them to death. He personally oversaw the hangings in the courtyard. No basketball that day. No basketball that day. I think the basketball court comes later, you know.

Yeah, definitely. Oh, this is pretty basketball. Yeah, basketball isn't invented. until the end of the 19th century. Oh, okay. Yeah. Springfield, Massachusetts. What were they playing in the courtyard?

Rock. Playing rock? It's just a game, just rock. Just throw a rock. So what else throws a rock? It's a simpler time. Throw a rock, you're bound to hit someone guilty? Is that where the lyric came from?

Oh, probably, yeah. However, Conley, despite his 103 stitches and 8th of an inch from his jugular vein, was not deterred by this ordeal. He instigated a massive prison expansion and modernization project. So he bounced back quick. Because he was a firm believer that idleness bred insurrection, very common kind of 19th century view, idle hands make the devil's workshop, playground, something like that.

Because he believed that idleness bred insurrection, most of the prison was built by the inmates themselves, including a large red brick building you see today, as the 1912 cell block. Okay. Apparently they completed it in just 11 months. And you can see today that the quality was top notch. Well, fair play to the warden for sticking to his guns.

But a bunch. Well, you know, just letting them carry on is like, you know, they tried to murder me. But, you know, everyone deserves a second chance. Yeah. But it begs this question too, which is that what is the purpose of prison and what's crueler to have too much idle time or to be basically forced labor, you know, because this is something they still use in the States. They still use the equivalent of chain gangs. They still use prison labor to manufacture all kinds of things, clothing, license plates. And the prisoners get paid very, very

little. So, you know, prisons these days, like they've turned them into capitalist enterprises. Right. Can they unionize? No, they're prisoners. Right. They can, you know, the warden stuff have almost absolute power over them. Anyway, they were good at what they were doing, because you can see this prison has stood the test of time. So they built the prison. They build the theater too, and it's the first time in U.S. history

that such a building had been added to a prison. Plays and movies were put on here, and a ring was set up for boxing matches. Now, Conley used the theater as a sort of disciplinary tool. If you behave badly, you denied access to the entertainment. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. No TV for you, you bad boy.

No, no, you lose your theater privileges. And this is much like my private school. Like you lose privileges when you misbehave. Yeah. You know, like no free time. You can't play sports, stuff like that. I mean, I guess prisons and prep schools have a lot in common that comes down to it. Yes.

And then you wonder why they come out, psychopaths, and try and destroy everything. Yeah, absolutely. And my headmaster definitely had a pistol in his drawer, but it was a squirt pistol, which is much less impressive. Right. That sounds quite creepy. Well, yeah, he's a strange guy. So, Conley had prisoners making their own prison uniforms, mattresses, growing their own food.

He had them doing so much the prison actually became profitable. It was making money. By 1917, he had 60% of the inmates working outside the prison wall. So he was farming these guys out as cheap labor. He loaned them to construction sites across the state where they built hospitals and roads. he also had them build him a hunting lodge on the shore of his private lake. Wow. A racetrack for his thoroughbred horses and had them working as cooks and servants at his private events.

Yeah, he's really making this work for him. I mean, you'd argue at this stage that the prisoners are not really prisoners. They just kind of sleep at the prison. Yeah, they're just, they're really just laborers doing all this stuff and then staying in the world's crap as dormitory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the prison food and everything. And their only, I mean, their only distractions is the theater and, you know, playing rock.

Yeah. And hitting each other in the boxing ring. Hmm. And, I mean, they didn't run away. No. They don't really see quite like their jobs. No, no. They, well, I mean, again, you got to, I mean, I've never been in prison and I never intend to be.

But what I've heard is one of the worst parts about it is just, it's boring. Yeah. There's nothing, there's nothing to do. So, you know, again, you could have this debate, like, is it, is it exploitation? It is. It's definitely exploitation. but at the same time. Debate over.

Debate over. But a chance to get out of the prison. That's how the debate works. We could have a debate. Is it exploitation? Yes, it is. That's finished. That's finished.

That's done. Can I just get my point across? I think if you commit a crime, you lose all your rights. Okay. Bless you. She's allergic to the truth. I think people should be put in prison for sneezing. I think sneezing should be a crime.

speaking of someone who has allergies. But Conley's strategy of using a prison workforce ultimately became his downfall. The unions, understandably, were not happy. Conley's prisoners were taking away good union jobs. Eager to please the unions, the state governor jumped all over the corruption allegations against Conley of using inmates for personal gain and stripped Conley of his title as warden. Power corrupts. Power corrupts.

Power crops. He just pushed it a little too far. Well, he pushed it way too far. I mean, they built him a hunting lodge, for God's sakes. And you've got to imagine that he was pocketing a lot of the money. I mean, where did he get the money for these private events, hunting lodges, thoroughbreds? It's not like he's pumping all that money back into the prison again. When I ran a charity shop, I actually got a little power crazy myself.

There's thrift stores in the U.S. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how did that manifest itself? Well, I had the volunteer. I got a little, I didn't really like the walk home. I found it a bit, kind of boring. And also, I don't really like engaging with the public after a long day. So I had my volunteers dig me a catacombs.

A catacombs? A catacombs? A secret tunnel. So that I could walk home underground. Oh, that's, that is, that does sound like coarse labor. I thought you were going to say you had them build you like a kind of palanquin, you know, like a sedan chair from the various donated objects and they carried around on their shoulders.

I had the drawings. You had the schematic drawn up. Hmm. But yeah, but then they protested and then I was out basically. But that's just political correctness, isn't it? That's just... Yeah. I can see there's so many parallels between you and Conley.

Yeah. It's quite remarkable. And that generation, they don't want to work. So, you know, I was... They work right. They all have four jobs. So, one of the longest reigns of any prison warden in U.S. history ends with Connolly getting thrown out on his year by the governor.

So at the start, you said something about a siege. Yes. Did that happen after Connolly left? Yes. So did it go downhill from there? Well, after he left. So siege happens in the 1930s. By then, the prison has over 500 inmates and standards have really slipped.

A state investigation in 1931 found one of the cell blocks to be, quote, a disgrace to civilization. So life inside was unofficially run by a select few inmates. and the staff were too poorly trained and under-equipped to intervene effectively. This is the situation into the 1950s, which is when the man who will lead the uprising and trigger the siege, comes into the story, Jerry Miles. The amazing thing is that he began his plan before he was in the prison. Miles is what you would call a career criminal.

He spent most of his life bouncing around various institutions and his stints in the outside world quickly ended in arrest. But when he got wind of this prison in Montana, where the inmates ran the show and the rules were lax, he bought a ticket to Butte about 40 miles from here, quickly got arrested for burglary and was duly sentenced to five years at the Montana State Prison. I mean, he had a plan, and he executed that plan.

You got to give him credit for that. I'm seeing a very slack burglary here, the most camp burglary ever. just noisy making sure that the people were in he was using binoculars for days before just to check when they were in but just like from the front lawn yeah yeah just there and they asked him like what are you doing I'm casing the joint yeah and he smashed the window even though the door was open yeah walked in

are you gonna be home Tuesday night well yes we are okay I guess I'll I'll see a Tuesday night tries to unplug their TV while they're watching it I think this guy yeah this was the the worst This actually happened to my mother in Texas. Really? Yeah, she heard some noise from the living room, and she walked out, and like a guy there was just holding her television. And the thing is that she was between him and the door. And so it was the sort of standoff between the two.

And he was scared and she was scared. And she goes, I'll give you $50 if you put my television down. And he looked and goes, okay. That was it. It was all resolved in this incredibly civilized fashion. until he came back the next night No, no, he didn't He was holding of ours

How much? How much you give for me, lady? It's like auction house situation Yeah Okay, so he's back in the cell He's come to this new prison He's come to this new prison And where the warden really screwed up

Was putting this guy in with the gen pop Right He puts together a following inside Including a right-hand man called Smart And they take over the prison Was Smart very stupid That's usually what... Yeah, like tiny being this giant guy.

Like, that's a good question. And would you want... I mean, would... Now this is a question. If you had a right-hand man for a prison takeover, would you want someone who's smarter than you? Or would you want someone who's kind of dumb and obedient? Yeah, dumb and obedient.

Yeah, but also I wouldn't want smart to be my nickname. It's a lot of pressure. It is a lot of pressure. It's like, oh yeah, you're so smart. You did the cross-the-puzzle. Exactly. Everything you'd say would have to be, you know, carefully chosen, long words.

Yeah, I'd have to wear glasses. You'd have to wear glasses. Yeah, they add 20 points. These are my glasses. To the estimate of your IQ, apparently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least 20. With you, it's like probably 30 or 40, I think.

Thank you. Because they're very big glasses. Because the starting point is so low. The starting point's really low. Okay, so. I'm the every man in this arrangement, all right? You're the guy that did all the reading. Yeah, yep, absolutely.

I'm the voice of the guy on the street. You, yes, you are Joe Normal. So there was a siege? Tell us about that. Did you say bazooker? Where's the baller? I want the bazooker. Where are the guys doing that?

So here's Ray, a local who does tours the prison to tell us a little more. Okay. The plan as I now know it is they took some flammable liquids and threw on a guard who was looking away from them and they had a lit torch of some sort and they threatened to burn the guard unless they give him the rifle. Rather than be burned up and give them the rifle, they then use that rifle to disarm the other other guards in the 1912 cell house and anybody didn't have a chance to get away was in taking captive. I mean, it's a strong method.

Yeah. I'd probably do. That'd probably be my method if I was going to try and overtake a prison. Have you thought about this a lot? Well, since... Are you taking notes? Well, this is a learning curve, you know. Yeah.

You never know, right? You've got to be ready. Got to be ready. Yeah. I mean, you could just, you know, not commit crimes. considered that option. Yeah, yeah. You don't commit crimes.

Your chance of getting thrown in a prisoner pretty small. I've had a baby, you know, I've got a mortgage now. I need a little something, a little thrill. So I've just... So you're going to become the world's crappest burglar? I just sometimes put avocados through his onions at the supermarket. Self-checkout, you know, that kind of stuff. You, savage!

Yeah, yeah, yeah. God, I've thought about doing that so many times. But if I went to prison for that, I think, you know, I probably wouldn't have it in me to start an insurrection. Yeah, I think Sainsbury's has its own private detention center. specifically for vegetable substitutions. Out the back. Just loads of middle class people out there.

They've just arranged this, you know, with those wheelie carts that they put the produce up, they just arranged it in a square. Just put a lid on them. Yeah, exactly. I'm dreadfully, sorry. I won't do it again, I promise. It's like, we know you're thinking of substituting

croissant for pretzels. So, Miles and his 21 strong inmate mob then rounded up as many prison staff as they could and locked them in the cells. convenient, right? Because the cells are already there. They soak the mattresses in flamble liquid so they could threaten to burn them

if they weren't freed from the prison. Yeah, it's a good one. It's a good deterrent. Because no one really wants to be burned alive, do they? No, no. Even Buddhist monks who hate war, don't really want to do it. Yeah, I mean, that poor man must have drawn the short straw on something. Yeah.

Oh, whenever I think about that. But if you just breathe deeply in with nice feelings, out with burning alive. So, with control of the prison and armed Miles headed over to the deputy warden's office and the deputy warden was oblivious to the inmate takeover. How? Compartmentalization. Was it like an 80s movie where he was wearing a Walkman?

I guess they were just really quiet about it. Just working on some files. No, they were just like, okay, if you get in the cell, give me a rifle. This mattress is covered in flammable. Don't make a sound. Yeah. The zip-o lighter that you've made? Well, it's a pretty, I think it's just a pretty big structure.

So all this was happening in one cell block, and then this guy is stationed someplace else. Okay. So Miles bursts in on the deputy warden's office, wielding a cleaver. The deputy manages to deflect the first few blows, but could do nothing about Miles' right-hand man smart, entering the fray and firing a rifle into his chest.

Yeah, that'll do that. Yeah, that did it for him. The rioters allow the deputy's body to be removed from the prison, and they also allow the prison's secretary to leave. Here is her daughter, Marlene, to tell us more. The inmates, they really did to kind of take care of her. I mean, one inmate, and I knew this later, had told Mom, he said, if any one of us come up to you and tell you to your wanted across the street. They said, and don't ask questions. Just get your purse and leave.

do not ask questions, go straight through Tower 7. Well, the inmates, there were five of them, that literally escorted her across the street. And then they turned around and went right back in the prison. Gentlemen. Yeah, and, you know, I think if I was getting escorted out of a prison ride, I wouldn't ask questions either. Yeah, I'd probably leave my purse behind.

Yeah, I think, I think. I mean, just as a gesture, just take whatever's in there, lads. Thank you. So the warden was outside of the prison at this time, and the wives and families of guards who are hostages were starting to demand an end to all this madness. And he decides that the only way to end this is to enter the prison himself.

One man. Into the belly of the beast. So, just like you used a secret tunnel to escape from your thrift store, the warden enters via a secret tunnel, which comes up in the prison chapel. And at the end of this tunnel, there's a small hatch to seal it. This is where the negotiations actually happen. But while those talks are going on,

the National Guard are gathering at a gymnasium just four blocks away. For a workout? Yeah, for volleyball practice. That's just there. That's the side story. Is this a subploc? Did you hear about the prison right?

Yeah. don't care, like just spike the ball, Bob. We got... No bouncing, though. No bouncing. Call that a serve. So, word had got out about the riot. So the city switchboards were being overrun with calls.

Some of them were as far away as London, England, and reporters descend on the town to cover this hot story. Montana, this is London. We hear there's been a kerfuffle over there. What say you, we send over one of our scribes to write it up? Something like that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that was, I'm sure, taken from the telegraph message sent.

Yeah, we have the transcript. Actually, no, we don't know. Prison riot, Montana, stop. Prisoners have stopped playing rock. Stop. Citizens concerned. Stop. Bazookas glimpsed.

Zookas deployed. Stop. So, Miles and Smart were holed up in the southwest corner of the 1912 cell block. And at about 4.45 a.m. on the 18th of April, 36. hours after the riot began, the National Guard sprang into action. Here's Ray to tell us what happened. Part of the plan to retake the prison was to use a bazook around to go through that window on the 1912 cellhouse, kind of use it like today's flash bang to once at 1 a.m. Being all metal and

stone, it would make a loud, deafening sound inside. Plus the flash would temporary. blind everybody in there and then the entry team would hear that happen and everybody was inside the 121912 self instinctively would look to where the blast was and why their backs was looking that way then the entry team was able to come in safely and be able to retake the hostages back and keep them from being harmed and bazookas have pretty good spread as well so you wouldn't actually have to be that accurate kind of just like a You know, I have to say that this is where, from all my sense of knowledge of bazookas from playing with my army men, that I start to question the plan. You know, because like a flashbag is literally that.

Like it doesn't have a lot of explosive power. It's supposed to make a big flash and a loud bang. Right. You know, a bazooka is designed to destroy or disable a tank or an armored vehicle. It is not going to do what they say it's going to do. It is going to create a massive, very destructive explosion. Right. But, you know, I guess bazook is what they had, so bazook is what they're going to use.

That was the plan. Marlene was actually there on the day it happened, and here's what she remembers. The National Guard, when they came in, this young man was up on one of the towers back in. And he had a bazooka, and he had a bazooka, and he shot. a bazooka at one of the towers, and I'm surprised he didn't kill somebody. I got, boom. Yeah, I mean, if the prison hasn't already destroyed property prices, I would think the deployment of anti-tank weapons probably sends them spiraling downwards.

Did it work, though? Did it take back the prison? Well, the first round they shot actually missed. I mean, I don't know what it hit, how you miss a building. I'm curious just the details of that but he readjusted his aim and he hit the tower right by the window you can actually still see the damage today

the explosion apparently had the desired effect and the guardsmen stormed the tower only to find Miles and Smart already dead the result of a murder suicide a what? Murder suicide Is that where you kill each other? Well it's very hard to kill each other simultaneously one person three one person kills you

Oh you went on three I was going to go after three. Yeah, I'm not going to go to the details of it. It sounds pretty gruesome. What is a murder of suicide? A murder suicide is when you make an agreement with someone that you are going to kill them. Someone's going to kill someone else and then the surviving person is going to kill themselves. Oh.

God, that's a terrible afternoon. Yeah. Yeah, isn't it though? Yeah. So, I imagine you want to hear what happened are the hostages. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Did they survive?

They were all rescued, unharmed. but no doubt psychologically scarred by their experiences. Yeah. I actually have a quote from a National Guardsman at the time. I feel that the only thing that saved the hostages was the element of surprise. The shock of the bazooka that we threw into this tower area where these men were holed up. Now, in all fairness, if I was a National Guard involved, that's exactly what I would say. Like, our plan worked.

Yeah. We saved him. Like, to hell with negotiation. Yeah. Right. So it killed all the men that did it. All the... Well, no.

The story that I have is that they were already dead before the bazook around hit the tower. Right. So the National Guard didn't try and take the credit for that in their... No, no, no. Or they avoided taking the blame for it. Okay. I mean, they were the first people to discover the bodies, so...

Yeah. Okay. So what happened to the prison after this? Well, unsurprisingly, a lot of people stopped working at the prison after the 59 riot. 60s and 70s passed with relatively little commotion. there was one notable event in 1967, the prison's first and only ever funeral was held on its grounds. It was for a lifelong inmate called Turkey Pete.

Okay, I like the sound of this guy. Why is he called Turkey Pete? Well, it's because he tended the prison's flock of turkeys, but what endeared him to everyone was his insanity. He believed that he owned the prison and everyone that went along, and everyone kind of went along with it. They just sort of humored him. Okay. Yeah, yeah. He slept in a couch outside the deputy warden's office.

He read the warden's newspaper in the morning. Apparently one day a warden told Pete to stop sleeping on the couch and to quit reading his newspaper. And so Pete folds the paper back up and then he bangs on the desk shouting, I hired you and I can damn well fire you. I feel like if Turkey Pete was now, he'd probably have a diagnosis and he'd be medicated. And we would never have had turkey pit. He'd be called boring, Pete, or turn it, Pete. I didn't want to tell you this, but Lewis doesn't actually work here.

Ah, yeah. He just keeps him happy and calm. Right, right, right. He's a volunteer. Yeah, a volunteer. I have some work I could give you, actually, Lewis. Yes, the other two that are actually doing everything important. Okay, what, the girl that sneezes and coughs?

Yeah. Okay. What about the kid with the football hooligan jumper? Still investigating that one. Okay. I don't want to ask because he looks like he could be on one side of the other. Yeah, he looks like a tough one. Lewis, honey, can we get you anything to make your stay comfortable?

Don't make eye contact. Don't make eye contact. Do you like digging, Lewis? Back to Turkey Pete. Okay. Lewis, you're doing a great job. Back to Turkey Pete. He was also the mascot for the prison band and managed the prison's boxing team.

Wow. And after his death, his cell number one was retired. just like he was a member of like a sports team that you retire's jersey yeah just empty yeah I guess they just leave it alone oh wow in 1979 all the inmates are transferred to a new far more modern facility three miles outside of deer lodge and the old montana state prison is now open for tours by people like gray how lovely all's well that ends in tourism yes yes well you know it's a historic site with a really interesting history and I think we can learn a lot about how prisons were run, the experiences of prisoners, you know, that how terrible it was.

And clearly there's like a lot of corruption and exploitation. I mean, look what lake house, thoroughbred track, hiring these guys out to do construction jobs. And you know, this is a real issue in the sort of what they call the prison industrial complex in America today. Like these prisons are often privately owned facilities or private public partnerships that are run for a profit. There's a story of a judge up in New York that kept sentencing minor criminals to prison. And they looked into it. And it's because he was a shareholder in this for-profit prison. Oh, come on.

And because they get a certain amount of money from the state for each prisoner that they have, he was feeding into it. And then, you know, he was making money off of it. That's so ridiculous. Well, this is one hell of a story. Yeah. It's a story of, why, there's so many elements to it. I like Connolly, the warden, who was trying to treat men, you know, treat them with respect and try and, you know, rather than, you know, talk down to them and exploit them.

But that backfired, but then his own greed backfired. Yep. Because if you give people too much power. Yep. It's like us on set here. We've already. So much power. You know, we're like the cast of friends now.

We negotiate our pay, you know, aggressively. Can I be Monica? You're sitting on that heated cushion, which you've insisted on, that plug-in cushion. I'm not wearing any trousers. Sorry, pants. I'm not wearing any pants. This is being aired in America. It hasn't made it to England yet.

Don't pan down. Don't pan down. I'm wearing no trousers. Pants. And I'm wearing shoes and socks, which I think is a great look for a guy. I think male nudity. from the waist down is the worst thing that anyone could see. I don't endorse this practice.

Well, luckily you don't have to see it, but I'm nice and cool over here. I'm glad this is a very large table. It needs to be. No, no, that's not. See, that's something you should go to prison for. Actually, no, that would be really rough. Go to prison for not wearing pants in public or trousers or whatever we want to call them. Yeah.

Hey, podcast, kid. Where your trousers at? Wear your trousers. You did your little podcast, did you? Your little history pod? You know, this is a true story. I went to an archive once in Malaysia, and I was wearing shorts,

and they gave me trousers. Really? Yeah, they had special archive, archive trousers. Archive trousers. You have to put these on. They were very clean. They were very comfortable. And so I had the little archive.

Was it sort of seen as pornographic to have your knees out? It was just this more formal country, and it's improper to be. in a place of state business in short, short pants. Yeah, that's interesting. When I was 19, I tried to get into a nightclub. Not wearing any trousers? But I was wearing jeans.

And they told me, you could only wear trousers, slacks. Yeah. So I went to Burger King and asked him if I could borrow any of the staff's spare pair. And I did. You did not. You got Burger King trousers. I got Burger King trousers. And they were all covered in beef drippings and juice and oil and fat.

And I just, you know, in the darkness of the club. they were skin tight as well skin tight yeah they were really really tight greasy Burger King trousers got you into the club yeah yeah oh dear Lord

you know the system is not set up for you know I don't know what I'm saying and God no more beef trousers greasy beef trousers you don't even work here man tie it up somehow

I think this prison, which still stands because the prisoners who were forced to build it did a good job. I think when we look at the story of this mixture of corruption and exploitation and the violence, I'm reminded of this very famous Latin phrase, which is who watches the watchman. You know, when you have a warden, and the wardens often have such incredible power in these circumstances. Where are the guardrails? And I think if we've learned anything from recent events, it's the more power you give someone, And the more guardrails, there have to be on how they wield that power. The more hunting lodges, they will try to build.

They will try to build. And they will force everyone to build them for them. And another thing. I would also like a rocket sled to take me between my various properties. No, and it's curious to see the development of that prison system and how some of these problems were obviously apparent, you know, 100 years ago. And yet they still persist today. You know, anyone who's seen an American prisoner, let alone been inside one, not even as a prisoner, you know, for all the talk of, you know, this is rehabilitative, this is humane, like these are terrible places.

And, you know, if a country was impoverished and its prisons were in a terrible state, you're like, well, you know, nobody has much of anything. But America's such a wealthy country. And crimes of some of these people are in there for, you know, some of them have been for terrible crimes, but some of the render of relatively minor crimes. It used to be, for example, you had these mandatory drug sentencing laws that things that are completely legalized in many states now like marijuana. Like, get thrown in jail for your third arrest. For years. For years. Yeah.

At one point, the mandatory minimum sentence for marijuana possession was higher than the mandatory minimum sentence for a rape conviction. So I think when you're looking at these prison systems and the justice system, you have to be constantly vigilant. And yeah, you want an appropriate amount of punishment, but you want the punishment for the crime. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the watchman thing is very true. This is why I never want to become successful because I know that I would be monstrous.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. Thank you. And the one there. Search for where did everyone go on your favorite podcast platform and be sure to follow for more episodes. You can also feel follow the link in the episode description. Thanks for listening.