Forbidden History - The Japanese Ghost Fleet of Chuuk Lagoon

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

This episode is an explorative retelling of Operation Hailstone, a great sinking of Japanese battle ships by US forces in WW2, in Chuuk Lagoon in the Federated States of Micronesia. We follow a local ...team as they dive a newly discovered wreck, and recount stories of the epic battle along the way, including those from the perspective of local indigenous people.  Cast List: Bill Jeffrey: Associate Professor at University of Guam Diane Strong: Former Journalism Professor at the University of Guam. Biographer of Kimiuo Aisek. Gradvin Aisek: Local Chuukese whose father, Kimiuo, was born under the Japanese mandate on Chuuk. Guy Walters: A British author, historian, and journalist who has written several books on WWII. As a journalist for The Times, he writes on historical topics for the national press. Michael Barnette: Marine biologist, diver, author and photographer. Bill Stinnett: Local diver and owner of Truk Stop Hotel & Dive Centre on the island of Chuuk. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This program is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It contains mature adult themes. Listener discretion is advised. A young man, 17 years old, stands on the beach of his tropical island homeland, his toes swaddled in perfectly soft sand. It's a pleasantly mild early morning, and the breeze is gentle. The boys' stares. transfixed into the distance.
Starting point is 00:00:35 He watches as a far-away mushroom cloud erupting from a battleship, billows miles into the sky. His ears are still ringing from the explosion. Over his temporary deafness, he can still hear the cacophony of almost a hundred fighter planes darting overhead. Dozens of pairs of dogfights whizz around the air
Starting point is 00:01:02 like circling butterflies. Hit aircraft fall out of the sky in blazes of fire. The ship in the distance continues to burn. He can hear deep, eerie, metallic creeks emerging from it as it begins to collapse in on itself. In only a minute, the over 10,000-ton vessel is engulfed by the water. It's solemnly singed.
Starting point is 00:01:32 deeper and deeper into the ocean, where it will remain indefinitely, and it won't be the last. In 1944, during the height of the Second World War, the might of America's armed forces was unleashed on a Japanese naval stronghold in the Pacific Ocean. The result of this devastating bombardment can still be seen to this day as laying hidden Beneath the waves are over 100 wrecks lining the ocean floor. The fascinating story of how these ships came to rest at the bottom of this lagoon is one of revenge, nuclear secrets, and immense human suffering. They just wanted to wipe it out.
Starting point is 00:02:22 This is a payback to Phil Harbour. If they didn't cooperate, they could be beheaded. If you dive today, you can still see three Mitsubishi Type 95, cargo tanks. They're right there. In this episode, we're talking to experts, local historians, and on-the-ground investigators to tell the story of these wrecks and how they came to be. You're listening to Forbidden History, the podcast series that explores the past's darkest corners, sheds light on the lives of intriguing individuals, and uncovers the truth buried deep
Starting point is 00:03:01 in history's most controversial legacy. This is the Japanese ghost fleet of Chuk Lagoon. Over 2,000 kilometers from the nearest continental landmass, in a remote area of the Pacific Ocean, stands the Federated States of Micronesia, a country comprised of four island states, Cozre, Ponpei, Yap, and Chuk. One of these states contains the atoll of Chuk.
Starting point is 00:03:36 The atoll is comprised of its island. series of islands surrounded by a naturally occurring ring. 40 miles in diameter, it's created by an ever-growing solid coral reef. On a boat in the middle of this atoll is Professor Bill Jeffrey of the University of Guam and his good friend and professional diver Jim Pinson. Despite being surrounded by stunning beaches and crystal clear waters, they're on a hunt for something unknown, hidden beneath the waves. You got a bet going on then. So I'm thinking it's a working boat, and you think it's a landing ground.
Starting point is 00:04:17 No, I said working boat first, but whatever it is. You're rewriting history. I mean, it's really nice to find out what it could be. Yeah, you really want to know what it really is. This is because the atoll of Chuk is home to one of the most incredible underwater graveyards in the world, and Bill has been exploring it for decades. Bill once took part in an expedition to research and record all of the known wrecks in this lagoon, but with surprising results.
Starting point is 00:04:50 So back in 2002, when I was based here, we were surveying and trying to locate the exact position and do some mapping of these sites. We just came across this feature, which was definitely not natural, and stood out from the bottom, and it's just not where we're expecting any other ship. Now, Bill has returned to uncover the truth behind this mystery wreck and what it can teach us about the underwater ghost fleet. But how, in this idyllic tropical part of the world, did all these ships end up the bottom of the ocean in the first place?
Starting point is 00:05:28 To understand that, we have to dive into the history of the Chukatol and how it became a pivotal player in the biggest war the world has ever seen. The state of Chuk is home to the indigenous Chukese, but has been claimed by various nations for the last 500 years, first by Spain in the 16th century, who then sold the state to Germany in 1890. However, crucial to our story, Japan annexed the islands of Micronesia from Germany during World War I. Ironically, on behalf of the allied powers, who would soon become their enemies.
Starting point is 00:06:14 Japan then assumed control of the islands and intended to run them in a peaceful manner. To tell us more is Gradfin ASEC, a local Chukese, who grew up on these islands listening to the tales of the local elders that lived through the Japanese occupation. The Japanese educate the people of Chuk, and they hired them to work for the Japanese. and the Japanese really help the local people. They feed them, they give them what they want, and they pay them. Professor Bill Jeffrey, having worked in this area for decades, also has a historical insight into this time.
Starting point is 00:06:56 Chuky's people that were there in those early days, they said it wasn't too bad. They had all sorts of facilities there, ice cream parlors, a cinema. So before the war started, Some people thought that life wasn't too bad, even though it was under quite stringent Japanese control. However, as World War II approached, the Japanese soon realized that Chuk, known then by its former name, Truk,
Starting point is 00:07:24 could be of vital, strategic military importance. To help illustrate is author and historian Guy Walters. Truck is the absolutely perfect location for a naval base. The Japanese saw it there, slap bang in the middle of the Pacific, and realized that's fantastic, strategically, but better still, because it's this natural coral atoll, it's the perfect anchorage point for a massive fleet. It's got natural protection. Gradvin's father, Kimio, was born under the Japanese rule and witnessed the change from peacetime occupation to the buildup of war. My father born during the Japanese occupation. He said he liked the Japanese because they treat them well.
Starting point is 00:08:10 Only when Japan think about going to war, the life foreign exchange. One event was about to change the course of the island's history forevermore. On the 7th of December, 1941, Japan launched a surprise attack on a U.S. naval base in Hawaii. People talk about turning points of the Second World War. Believe you me, Pearl Harbor was the turning point. The Japanese attack is absolutely seismic. What this means is that America is now going to join the war. Japan was now up against the might of the Allied military powers.
Starting point is 00:08:49 The harmonious existence on the atoll of Chuk would now be replaced by volatile preparations for all-out war. Life for the islanders changed. The Japanese became cruel occupiers. That's the time the life of the island, it's different. The Japanese bring the Korean and use them for labor, even the Jewish. That's the time it's very hard for the Turkish people. Because the Japanese, they treat them like slave. They force them to work without get paid.
Starting point is 00:09:23 They have very little food. And they start working when the sun rise up until, As a former professor of journalism at the University of Guam, and the official biographer of Gradvin's father, Kimio, Diane Strong has an in-depth knowledge of the Chukhi's experience around this awful time. If the Chukis didn't cooperate, they could be beheaded. And they were, and often right in front of the families. They were always indoctrinating the Chukis to hear,
Starting point is 00:09:58 oh no, we will never be beaten in those, those, And those Americans are dirty, stupid people. They could never defeat us. The truck atoll was to become the primary anchorage point for the enormous Japanese imperial fleet. In preparation, the Japanese put the Chukis to work, building bunkers, trenches, caves, airstrips, and seaplane bases, all bolstered by giant coastal defense guns.
Starting point is 00:10:27 It was so well-fortified, the Allied powers nickname truck, the Gibraltar of the Pacific. Most of these fortifications now lay in ruins around the islands, or as wrecks lining the seabed below. With so many wrecks so close together, it's a haven for avid divers. These mighty vessels are now blanketed in corals and barnacles, cast in eerie, muggy sunlight, hundreds of meters below the surface. Serene tropical fish cluster and disperse in the crevices of strikingly recognizable wartime artillery.
Starting point is 00:11:13 Tanks, jeeps, and giant guns, they sit atop the decks, frozen in time. Divers and historians, like Bill and Jim, aim to explore and catalog all these wrecks in the hopes of detailing the events of what happened on that fateful day. This mysterious new wreck, is no different. Yeah, looking forward to it.
Starting point is 00:11:40 Looking forward to what you'll see and discover. Yeah. Hopefully we see something good. However, if the strategy of attack by the U.S. had taken a different turn, there may have been no wrecks or ruins left behind to explore or anyone left alive. This is due to the threat that Truc posed to the allied powers
Starting point is 00:12:06 and what they were prepared to do to counter it. Truck was a crucial Japanese military base, and the atoll began to play a major part in some of the most significant conflicts within the Pacific Theater. Truck is not only this fantastic anchorage point for the Japanese fleet, but it's also a major place where you can ship supplies and goods in the fight against the Allies. This made it a real concern to the United States, and it wasn't until relatively recently that documents discovered in the U.S. National Archives, revealed the true devastation that could have been awaiting the atoll. During a meeting held on the 5th of May, 1943, members of the Military Policy Committee had convened to discuss a top-secret weapons program.
Starting point is 00:12:56 It was known as the Manhattan Project. And one of the priority topics of conversation was Truck Lagoon. Long before the first atom bombs had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, It was actually the atoll of Truck was considered the perfect place to test this new deadly weapon. And actually, if you have a look at this top secret memo here, you can see the Americans talking about how the best point of use would be on a Japanese fleet concentration in the harbor of truck. So what the Americans wanted to do was to see what effect the atom bomb would have on ships. Fortunately for the lagoon, the plan to drop an atomic bomb on truck. was never realized.
Starting point is 00:13:40 But the U.S. would later carry out a controlled test at another South Pacific Island group, Bikini Atoll, giving a glimpse into what could have been Trucks' fate. The U.S. may have changed tactics, but they weren't going to leave truck alone. Reconnaissance missions brought back images showing just how well-fortified the atoll had become. But they also showed something else.
Starting point is 00:14:09 It turned out that truck was harboring a top-secret weapon. Even before the war had started, as far back as 1937, Japan had embarked on an ultra-secret project to create a weapon designed to counter the superior numbers of the American fleet. On a flyover mission to truck, the U.S. pilots were shocked by what they saw. Two B-24s from the Airsaults Command came in on reconnaissance, and there were destroyers and and all kinds of military ships. They did see the Yamato, and they couldn't believe
Starting point is 00:14:46 they'd ever seen anything that big. It was astonishing. Developed and built in complete secrecy, the Yamato was the heaviest and most powerful armed battleship ever constructed. Commissioned to be built just one week after Pearl Harbor, it was capable of engaging multiple enemy battleships at the same time at full load.
Starting point is 00:15:08 She was over 72,000 times. and equipped with the largest guns ever mounted to a battleship. Yamoto was not just the heaviest and most powerful ship ever built. She also represents this huge symbol. She represents the Japanese Navy's might, her technological power, her ability to absolutely trounce any opposition. This is a really attractive target for the Americans. The threat that truck posed to U.S. operations in the Pacific
Starting point is 00:15:40 could no longer go unchallenged. Vice Admiral of the US Navy, Mark A. Mitcher, was ordered to assemble Task Force 58, the Navy's main striking force, in preparation for an attack on truck, named Operation Hailstone. You have this unit called Force 58 under the American Admiral Mitchell, and he is going to use this to attack Truck. This is a massive operation. But there was a problem. The reconnaissance planes sent by Mitcher to identify the tariff. targets on Truk caused the mission to be compromised. They were spotted and all of the military hardware ships were all moved. They all left the lagoon. Believing an attack by the U.S. was imminent, the Japanese evacuated their main fighting ships from Truk,
Starting point is 00:16:31 but they left behind numerous working ships, cargo vessels, and merchant freighters, all of which were about to face the full force of Operation Hailstone. February 1944, Task Force 58, comprising of 54 54 ships including numerous destroyers, aircraft carriers, and cruisers, as well as 10 submarines and over 500 warplanes, were now headed to their target. And on the 17th of February, 1944, with all their groups now in position just before daybreak, the order was given to commence the attack. They all would have had their mission about what to bomb.
Starting point is 00:17:14 You know, the 19 islands, and many of the islands have military facilities. They wanted to come here and bomb the truck, whether there's 100 Navy ships or 10 Navy ships. They just wanted to wipe it out. This is a payback to Pearl Harbor. Bullets rained from the sky. Japanese ships were both bombed from the air and torpedoed from under the water. The most damaging aspect of the attack for the Japanese, however, was the the loss of 270 fighter planes, the majority of which had never even left the ground.
Starting point is 00:17:48 Over 4,000 men lost their lives, including 120 Chukis. The attack continued for a further two days, by the end of which the ocean floor of Chukh Lagoon had become littered by almost 60 vessels. One of the first ships to be sunk during Operation Hailstone, the Hokie Maru, was only discovered in the 1980s. Surprisingly, neither the ship nor its cargo turned out to be Japanese. The Hokie Maru was originally called the Hauraki, and in fact she wasn't originally a Japanese ship. She was actually built by the British and then actually owned by a New Zealand shipping company. And the Japanese captured her when she was sailing from Fremantle to Colombo.
Starting point is 00:18:39 So these two raiders, the Aikoku-Maru and her sister ship, grabbed the Hokie, and of course all of the crewmen were from New Zealand. They were sent to Changi POW camp in Singapore. The vessel was taken to Yokohama, where it underwent modifications and was renamed the Hokie Maru. Half of the previous New Zealand crew members were made to work the engines of the ship by their captors, as it was taken to Japan. But ingeniously, during the trip, they threw overboard all of the ship's spare parts, limiting its use within the Japanese Navy. Just weeks before Operation Hailstone, the Hokie arrived at truck carrying a cargo of supplies. She was sunk on the first day of the attack after several bomb and torpedo strikes. The wreck now lies in 53 meters of water just east of what is now Dublon Island.
Starting point is 00:19:37 Surprisingly, still hidden within its holds, much of its cargo remains intact. It was used by the Japanese Empire for the Fourth Fleet to build roads and airport runways. So it's got all kinds of earth-moving equipment. But it is a beautiful wreck. It's upright. And sometimes when I dive it, my one thing that I don't want to think about is the one bulldozer that is hanging right above you. I said, please not today. Don't fall on me.
Starting point is 00:20:07 And astonishingly, this ship now lies less than a kilometer away from one of its original captors. And of course, it's right next to the Ikoomaru. So a little irony there. Since the first wrecks were discovered by renowned underwater explorer Jacques Cousteau in the 1960s, the continued interest in diving in the area prompted Gradvin's father, Kimio, to open up Chook's very first dive resort in 1973, called the Blue Lagoon. In the years following, numerous new wrecks have been found and identified.
Starting point is 00:20:50 But the sonar image captured by Bill on his last survey suggests that there may be something else waiting to be discovered. We had a good crew with the Blue Lagoon and Jim, so who's dived in that area for a very good, competent diver, so I think we'll have a good chance of finding it. But with the anomaly located, at 60 to 70 meters below the surface, Jim will be diving at what is considered
Starting point is 00:21:16 to be technical depths, which can lead to nitrogen poisoning and narcosis if he's not careful. I have a concern all the time. Anyone that goes diving, always worry a little bit. I mean, it's half an hour down the bottom, but another hour and a half coming up,
Starting point is 00:21:30 so two hours in the water, and you're wondering what's going on. You know, you can't communicate with him. Always, you have a little bit of concern for anything that goes on like that. A little bit more than the average diving. Jim will also have to be especially vigilant. Hunting out these wrecks is a job full of danger.
Starting point is 00:21:49 Many of the ships that were sunk in this area often went down carrying an explosive cargo. Speaking to our experts, they discuss one such ship, unrivaled in this regard, called the San Francisco Maru. The San Francisco Maru is known as the million dollar wreck. And there's a good reason for that, because if it's a good reason for that, because it was loaded with mines, ammunition, flatbed trucks, you name it, it's there. The San Francisco Maru had managed to survive the first day of the attack by the Americans. But on day two, she was hit by as many as six 500-pound bombs,
Starting point is 00:22:27 sending her to the bottom of the ocean, where her deadly cargo remains to this day. And actually, if you dive today onto the forward deck, you can still see three Mitsubishi type 95 hargo tanks. They're right there. To tell us more is marine biologist and diving explorer Michael Barnett. This is the marquee wreck in the lagoon. It's called a million dollar wreck because it has that or more worth of munitions and supplies on board, including bombs, bullets, beach mines, and all sorts of other highly explosive products on board.
Starting point is 00:23:02 It's a miracle this wasn't vaporized during the attack. And terrifyingly, some of this explosive cargo is still live, as explained by experienced local diver Bill Stinnett. Go to the deck, there's mines on the deck. The locals, when I first came here 42 years ago, they would take mines off that wreck and use it to dynamite fish. There's a tank on the deck as well. It's just, I mean, it's like going back in time. These wrecks host a multitude of deadly traps, and despite best efforts to keep divers safe, they have claimed an unfortunate view.
Starting point is 00:23:45 I've been involved in recovering three dead bodies, divers that died while diving. It's really dangerous to go into these underwater historic items, and you just have to pay attention. So we're about 200 meters or so now. 200 meters, that's pretty close. Honestly, I do remember that island over there from the last time we were here, so I think we're on the right track. On the way to the mystery wreck,
Starting point is 00:24:15 Bill and Jim pass over a stark reminder of the perils of the deep ocean. Laying under the waves is one of the main reasons why the U.S. publicized the assault on truck as an act of revenge and retribution. When America entered World War II and declared war on,
Starting point is 00:24:34 on Japan, it was due in part to the actions of the Japanese submarine I-169 who had participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor. It managed to penetrate the harbor confines, where it launched five mini-subs that went on to destroy two U.S. battleships. So she's got this enormously impressive military track record, and not only that, she also survives Operation Hailstone. So she's an incredibly lucky sub. But of course, that luck is going to change.
Starting point is 00:25:06 Following Operation Hailstone, the remaining Japanese vessels that were lucky enough to have survived the attack were on constant high alert. And on the 4th of April, 1944, I-169 received the message they had been fearing. B-24 bombers had been spotted in the sky, triggering an air raid. Wanting to avoid being struck, they performed an emergency dive. But in doing it, so, one of the ventilation valves had remained open, flooding the control room.
Starting point is 00:25:39 The 1,400-ton submarine, along with over 80 of her crew members, were now stuck at the bottom of the lagoon with limited air and little chance of rescue. But suddenly, there was a glimmer of hope. Rescue divers were sent down to the sunken submarine and signaled to the trap crew by banging on the hall. The crewmen inside, shocked but tentatively hopeful, used a hammer to knock from their side. Ultimately confirming that there were still survivors, a rescue mission was commenced to bring the trapped crew members to the surface.
Starting point is 00:26:14 So they get these barges out with big cables and these cables start winching this submarine up. But as the submarine broke the surface with the crew just moments away from salvation, disaster struck. But of course the problem is this submarine is far heavier than it normally is because it's half full of water.
Starting point is 00:26:35 The added weight of the flooded compartments, those cables snapped, and the submarine fell back to the bottom of the lagoon. Divers go back, bang on the side of the hull, and this time there is no reply. Arriving at mystery wreck, GPS knows where it is. Yeah, we're about 80 meters, 50 meters, straight up. Back on the surface, Bill and Jim are homing in on the GPS coordinates of the mystery wreck. Jim suits up and prepares for his two.
Starting point is 00:27:10 hour-long dive. Well, it's all up to you now. No pressure. No pressure. No pressure. Just a couple atmospheres. Jim then enters the water and descends in the hope of discovering an unknown wreck. All Bill can do is wait.
Starting point is 00:27:26 As the light starts to fade, so does Jim's chances of finding anything. 24 minutes. Wow. Is there okay? Oh, it's getting close to the dark, isn't it? Yeah, I think he would have signaled to us in some way that he'd found something. Finally, after 40 minutes, Jim signals to let the crew know all is okay by sending up an inflatable tube that rises to the surface, showing his position.
Starting point is 00:27:57 However, they'll have to wait for him to finish his decompression before they'll find out if he made any discoveries. As he just come up with his red float that he's used. to say that he's decompressing. It came up a long way off the wreck. So if it found something, I think he would have come up a lot closer. Sometimes you win him and sometimes you don't. An hour and a half passes, and Jim returns to the surface.
Starting point is 00:28:28 The boat crew are eagerly awaiting to hear his news. I mean, obviously you... You guys want to know, did I find it? Yeah. No, no, no. I didn't see anything in the first like 15, 18 minutes. Oh. after about 20 minutes in the dive when I started seeing things.
Starting point is 00:28:45 I found an anchor in at least three parts. I don't know how you break an anchor. Yeah. I mean, literally, this was broken. And I found what looked to be part of a hole plating or something that was probably two meters, both feet across, but blown through the middle, like an explosion, it ripped the metal open.
Starting point is 00:29:06 So something blew up around here, I think. The following morning, Jim and Bill, meet up to review the footage from yesterday's dive to figure out what it was Jim swam into. This was what got me the most excited. It looked like just some twisted metal, and that's actually what it is. This is heavy-duty metal, thick gauge, and it is just curled up all over. Looks like it was blown out this way from an explosion. What you found looks like more like debris. Yeah, it's evidence of something massive force, massive force. That metal's curled over. It's not just blown like this, a lot.
Starting point is 00:29:42 a little bit, it's curled over, and the anchor is broken. And I mean, I can't imagine what it takes a break in anchor. Where you came up seemed to be in the direction of where Okoku, the shipwreck was. The Aikoku Maru was an armed merchant cruiser of the Imperial Japanese Navy, sunk during Operation Hailstone. Since its discovery over 40 years ago, a question mark has remained over the mysterious whereabouts of its missing bow section. The answer may lie in eyewitness accounts.
Starting point is 00:30:18 Gradvin recounts the story his father used to tell him about where he was on the day of the brutal attack. You know, the attack came in in the morning before sunrise, and some of his relatives call him and wake them. The relative said, I think we are under attack, and everybody run into a cave. And then my father, as a young youth, wants to see what's going on, what's happened. And he sneaked out from the cave.
Starting point is 00:30:49 He stands under a big tree. Then he watched some of the airplane flying. And he said he saw a star on one of the, on the plane. He saw ships running with smoke. And he just stayed there on the shore watching. He just wasn't so much in shock, especially because, because he had worked on those ships. He said that he saw the Aikoku.
Starting point is 00:31:15 Kimiou watched as the Aikoku was struck by four aerial bombs. Crippled, but still afloat, she was attacked again in a second pass with a torpedo. She took a direct hit in cargo hold number one, which was laden with ammunition and explosives. That's when he saw it disappear in a mushroom cloud that lasted one minute and the ship was gone. And there is.
Starting point is 00:31:40 about 700 to 800 army on the boat, and they went down. Everyone went down with the ship. I remember my father told me that he has a very special friend. He said he's very sad because his friend went down with the ship when the attack came. The blast was so great that it even destroyed the US Avenger aircraft, which had launched the torpedo, killing all its crew members. The IKoku was probably the biggest explosion that they witnessed and talked about. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:32:24 You know, that sort of jagged middle. You saw a broken metal. I mean, I've seen that on shipwrecks still attached. I've never seen it just laying out. So that could have been the piece of the whole plating that was just blown apart. I think what they found, I think that's part of the Aikoku. because before Aikoku went down, there is a big splash on the service. And I'm sure, and I think that's the part of the Aikoku-Maru.
Starting point is 00:32:55 The clues suggest that what Jim and Bill have found is part of a ship destroyed by a massive explosive force. Very likely, the Aikoku-Maru, showing that even today, ongoing research and discoveries continue to shed new light on the events that took place here over 70 years ago. The Hokie Maru, the Ikoku Maru, the submarine I-169, and each and every wreck in Chuk Lagoon lays testament to the sacrifices made on both sides during the war,
Starting point is 00:33:31 including the suffering of the innocent local people who became caught up in the greatest conflict the world has ever seen. These jaw-dropping wrecks will continue to fascinate, and this gorgeous lagoon in the Pacific that once saw such destruction and devastation will continue to enlighten. What did happen to the innocent ship crew of the Hokie Maru? For a deep dive into their story as prisoners of war, listen to our extra episode, Forbidden Fruit,
Starting point is 00:34:15 available soon on all your favorite podcast platform. This is an audio production by Like a Shot Entertainment, presented by Bridget Lappin. Executive producers Danny O'Brien and Henry Scott. Story producer Maddie Bowers, assistant producer Alice Chudder. Thank you for listening.

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