Forbidden History - The Oracles of the Dead

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

In this episode of the Forbidden History podcast, Jamie Theakston joins Andrew Gough as they explore an underground complex near Naples, Italy, looking for the truth behind Oracles - people who were famed in the ancient world for being able to communicate with the gods, foretell the future and give advice to those seeking divine aid. Cast List: Jamie Theakston: Investigative reporter Andrew Gough: Writer, presenter and editor of The Heretic Magazine  Lynn Picknett: Historian and researcher specialising in exposing historical conspiracies. She is also the co-author of several notable works Graziano Ferrari: Local Caver & Archaeologist Alan Butler: Author ‘Before the Pyramids’ Rev. Lionel Fanthorpe: Author ‘Mysteries & Secrets of Time’ Eric Meyers: Narrator Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Forbidden History Podcast. This program is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It contains mature adult themes. Listener discretion is advised. Who were the oracles? The young women of the underworld who were consulted by ancient Greek society and whose visions help shape the course of history. What was the truth behind their trances and apparent psychic powers?

Oracles harnessed natural energy to access the realm of the gods and produce the truth about the future. Oracles were absolutely believed. This gave them great power. Oracles ultimately had a great part to play in the tapestry of history. Nobody would make a decision without covering their bum first and consulting the Oracle. You were paying for your pilgrimage. You were paying to be in the presence of something holy. But it's difficult to know whether it was entirely honest or not.

If you consulted the gods, nobody would question the result. You're absolved from responsibility because the gods told you it was okay. For centuries, rulers, philosophers, and writers, like Homer and Virgil, would come to Baya on the southern coast of Italy and descend into a network of underground tunnels to visit the oracle of the dead. It was a sacred labyrinth, which led the initiate down to the mythical river Styx. Once they crossed this, they'd entered the underworld, in which they met the Sybil or High Priestess, who was often a young virgin sitting in a small torch-lit chamber.

Through her, they were able to communicate with their dead relatives, as well as the gods themselves. themselves. In essence, it was an ancient, elaborate, and very unsettling version of a modern psychic, crossed with a scary Halloween experience, and it was a hugely important part of the ancient world. Journalist Jamie Thiexton is on a quest to find out what really went on in these underground caverns, why people went, and whether they really did offer some sort of supernatural experience.

People in the ancient world were certainly very superstitious. I don't think humanity is particularly changed in that respect. But they were much more into their gods and their goddesses. They really thought that these deities were ruling the world, that everything was prescribed, if you like, and that if you went to the right places and spoke to the right people, that they would be able to tell you what was likely to happen in the future. So just as there are some honourses,

mediums today, who will tell you what they have, what they genuinely believe they've seen and heard from the spirit world. So there are some confidence tricksters who will pretend to be seers and mediums and who for an exorbitant fee will tell you what the non-existent spirits have said to them. Of course, the idea crosses one's mind that it was all a big con. I mean, it might have started off as a good idea. And certainly, the people believed they were getting something for their money. But, of course, it's open as a system.

It's desperately open to abuse, especially as the priestess herself would characteristically utter gibberish. And that had to be interpreted by somebody else who was given a little backhand, a little donation. So it was self-fulfilling. It was self-generating. The underground labyrinth in Baya dates back. to the earliest Greek settlement in southwest Italy, around 750 BC. It was then rediscovered by Dr. Robert Padgett, an amateur archaeologist in 1962. And today the archaeological park has become a popular destination for tourists on the Italian coast. Historian Andrew Goff has long been fascinated with the ancient oracles and agreed to take

Jamie on a tour of the site. Oracles harnessed natural energy to create an environment by which the priestess, the Sybil, could access the realm of the gods and produce the truth about the future. The fact is, these oracle centers were also profit centers. They were in business to make money. They required a lot of people and a lot of effort, and they were paid handsomely by their patrons. Like most services offered by priests and priestesses over the centuries in whatever religion,

there was a little donation required. And offering to the gods, obviously, so that's the same sort of thing. But basically you were paying for your pilgrimage. You were paying to be in the presence of something holy. In the ancient world, the Oracle of the Dead at Baya was a major attraction for the rich and powerful. It was part Roman baths and health spa, part underground labyrinth and part luxury seaside resort.

It quickly gained a reputation for hedonism and debauchery. But after the fall of the Roman Empire and several earthquakes, it fell into ruin and was slowly lost under centuries of rubble, farming, and development. Andrew Goff had arranged special access to the site. The oracles of the ancient world were absolutely critical to all matters of government and state. If you had to make a decision about going to war

or who's going to be the candidate for the Senate, you would consult your peers, but they all have their own agenda. You would go and consult the gods, because if you were on record as having consulted the gods, nobody would question the result, good or bad. You're absolved from responsibility because the gods told you it was okay. So it was absolutely fine.

fundamental to any ruler, to any powerful businessman to consult the oracles first before doing anything. Now, of course, the site is restricted access, as you might imagine. He says with the keys to the kingdom, here we go. I mean, it's amazing. Everyone comes to Naples. What do they do? They go to Pompeii. I mean, it's a hidden gem. So this is, what, 2,000 years old? Exactly. Basically 100 BC onward. And so what was it? Was it a temple complex?

You know, not at all. It was a spa. I mean, people would come here to do all sorts of things, swimming, sports, to get pampered. It sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, something's never changed. Well, this is fantastic. This is perhaps the best preserved Roman thermal bath in the world. It's the Temple of Mercury. Okay, so what would have gone in there? That was just for swimming? Well, you can only speculate because in addition to being a spa, I mean, imagine what the elite of Italy would do when they were here. I mean, imagine how decadent it possibly could have been.

What we can see today is the result of years of excavation and restoration after the site's rediscovery in the 1960s, including the magnificent baths of Mercury, one of the best preserved in the world. So what kind of people would have visited here? Well, it was a rich and famous, powerful in the elite. I mean, Caesar and his family had a villa here. The Emperor Octavian Nero, they all came here.

Right. So this really was a playground of the rich and famous, right? Well, so much so. They called it that little Rome. And some even say that it became the Monte Carlo of the south of Italy. The real secret of Baya was called the Great Antrim of Initiation, where the rich and famous would descend into an underground labyrinth to meet the oracle and commune with the dead.

It's been sealed off to the public for decades, so Andrew Goff had arranged for a special permission to enter it. A local caving expert and archaeologist, Graziano Ferrari and his colleague Rafaela, had agreed to take Andrew and Jamie down there once they had been given a full safety briefing. Since we are going underground, that's a dangerous place. It's quite narrow and low. First of all, you need to wear a helmet. The second point is that we are going into a volcanic area, so maybe we can meet some dangerous gas. So we bring a gas analyzer.

The entrance to the Great Antrum could only be reached via a ladder, as it lay about 20 feet down a very narrow passage in the rocks. If this was the way in, what lay in store for them underground? The plan was for the team to descend as far as they could and try to reach the actual river sticks, which, according to mythology, was the boundary between this world and the afterlife. According to the story, a boatman would ferry you across the water into the underworld

where you could then meet the Oracle. Are you ready? So Andy, it seems really narrow in here. I can't believe that people would have actually come down here. Well, you know, it's designed for single file, right? So, I mean, one person can barely, barely fit. But imagine the effect that creates, especially as we're starting to really descend quickly.

The floor is, you know, angling down faster and faster every step we take. Today, the spirit realm is universally agreed to be up there. But that wasn't always the case. In the ancient world, the nether world, where you went after you died, that was down in the earth. So they sought with these sacred sites and temples and oracles of the dead to recreate that experience so that you could have the experience of talking directly to your ancestors

by physically going to Hades. And that was quite powerful. It is so tight and narrow down here and that you really get the sense that you're dropping down into hell. This whole area is volcanic. Imagine the mist, the noise, the visuals were really atmospheric, and today they are as well. You're going way down into the earth,

and it's physically uncomfortable, and you're just a little bit spooked out about what you are seeing and what you're thinking you're seeing. And it's very hot. The further you go and the more you descend, it is bloody hot, and you just feel disorientated. And here it is. This is the river sticks.

This is where the boatman would take the visitor across to the other side. Having found what could have been the mythical and symbolic river sticks, the team still needed to find the next part of the initiatory journey, the sanctuary, where the Oracle would have sat. The problem they faced was that most of the access tunnels had collapsed, and the ones that were left were now full of earth. On top of that, they were in an otherworldly environment, deep underground, and the ones that that was hot, humid, and full of mosquitoes.

I gotta tell you, the whole atmosphere of the descent changes once you get beyond the river sticks, the temperature, it doubles. It's so hot. And I can't help but think if that is by design. If so, it's very effective, because you're just boiling. Your expectations of what's going to happen when you're here coincide with a natural increase in the temperature, which creates quite a, I think, an unsettling effect.

But if you really believed in hell, what would it be like coming down here? Well, I think if you believed in hell, you would be damn sure you have just entered. You had just made the descent to the one and only Hades. You'd have no doubt in your mind. We are in volcanic eruption dated 9,000 years. No more, no less.

So is this where the oracle might have been? Yes, this is what Paget calls the sanctuary. So the domain of the Sybil, you can pretty much summarize three types of places. One being a really dark cave, usually deep in the earth. The second being over a cleft in the ground where natural gases are being emitted. And the third would be in sort of a pit where there's flamething. flames all around here and the effect would be identical

in each. She is off her head. She is communing with the gods. She's writhering and moaning and anybody would recognize that behavior as being that of somebody who's no longer conscious and who is actually possessed by the gods. They were positioned over a fissure in a rock up through which came volcanic

fumes, ethylene which, you know, must have changed her mentality for however briefly and enabled her to utter this impressive gibberish. But having said that, don't want to be too sceptical, because in the modern day there are shamans all over the world who take drugs and they believe that actually what happens is the drugs do obviously affect the brain. And they also open the mind as a kind of portal

so they can communicate with spirits or with gods. So you pays your money and you takes your choice there, but it certainly seems that it is possible that they were acting shamanically. It's not unlikely that the oracles themselves were taking drugs of one sort or another. This was quite common in ancient religion because it was thought that it would get you into a state

where you could approach your god or your goddess more directly. in tribal societies in the world, it's still used today. So it's possible that you were talking to the Oracle, but that the Oracle believed herself to be possessed by something else. Well, I've just been to Helen back, and I don't think I wanted to be again, not with the heat and the humidity and the bats and the claustophobia. I'm quite happy to be out. The descent in Tobias' labyrinth was quite an experience for the team.

But was this really the Oracle of the Dead that Homer wrote about? The local archaeologists say that it's most likely to be a steam vent, rising from the thermal springs below the baths. And it certainly seems a little too tight and awkward for a stream of important initiates to use on a regular basis. The idea of visiting or wise women is still very much alive in the area. The difference between today's version of a Sibyl, a fortune teller, and the actual Sibyl, is profound. First of all, there's no show.

They don't convulse and speak to the gods. And second of all, a Sibyl's prophecy is never, ever doubted or questioned for a second. And today, when we go to a fortune teller, we'll usually go, thanks for that. I think that was pretty, that was rubbish, really. There's no doubt that oracles were big business for the people who were running them. And that would therefore suggest that what you're really looking at is a carefully choreographed show, especially as many of the answers as we said were obscure to say the least. But I've lived long enough in this world to know that strange things happen.

I did a lot of research my book on the occult in which I sat in. with mediums and psychics and modern day oracles, if you like. And I think that there's an element to this that is interesting and it is an element that needs further investigation. People do seem to have interesting abilities, I'll say. However, the vast majority of this is it's psychology. You've got great psychological games being played, where people are being manipulated on a subconscious and a conscious level to do certain things.

to believe or to be part of certain things. And yeah, this is a wonderful game that's been played throughout history. The next morning, Andrew took Jamie to another Oracle site in the area, on the edge of Lake Averno, about a 30-minute drive from Naples. It's known as the Grotto of the Sybil.

Unlike the rich and famous who would go down into the labyrinth in Bayer, the clients here were ordinary people who would come to see the Oracle to ask her about everything and anything to do with their lives. Love, marriage, and of course, money. The ancient writers knew the Oracle of the Dead

had to be in the area around Naples. They knew that because there was one lake, Lake of Verne, that was mentioned time and time again. And on the shores of Lake Averno is the Oracle of the Dead. Well, Baya is a mile away, but right 35 meters off the edge of the lake, and I've been there, is the grotto of the Sibble. We know the ancient writers said the Oracle of the Dead, which was governed by a Sybil,

was close to the lake that's 100 meters behind us. It may have been used by those of more modest means, but the process here was exactly the same as at the other more exclusive Oracle site in Baya. Here the operation was much bigger and busier, with more clients, more revenue, and an Oracle who was in constant demand. According to Virgil and Homer, this was where the river sticks. Would it be? Exactly, exactly.

And you would be descending gradually with a piece of mistletoe, which you had to give the ferryman to cross the river sticks. And you only could go through, over, past the river sticks to get to where the Sibble, to where the oracle is. This is a proper river sticks. You can imagine a ferryman in a real physical boat, people standing up. A ferryman would probably look scary as hell, right? would greet you here and you'd have to put your mistletoe forth and he would say yes come on board

and he would go across and i remember when i was younger and i learned about the river sticks i'd imagine the boatman with a kind of cloak a hood over his head and a bony finger yeah beckoning you across absolutely Andrew believes that two thousand years ago there would have been an oracle in this chamber most likely a young virgin surrounded by flames who would go into a trance to communicate with the realm of the dead and the gods. The initiate, once he'd paid the priest his fee, would walk down the long tunnel, cross the symbolic river sticks, and then enter the sanctuary of the oracle. The actual procedure of consulting the oracle, when you'd gone through all the rigmarole

and you got to see the young woman, really depended upon where the oracle was and what the stimulus was to the oracle herself. A lot of what they came out with would seem like gibberish, couched in allegory, and very difficult to understand. But it's not unlikely that a lot of the people giving these answers were under the influence of one thing or another. If the Oracle could get into a trans-like condition, then it would be so much easier. it would facilitate the God to take possession of the oracle's body and give the message.

If they were dishonest and simply wanted the fee and had no more oracular ability than anyone else, then they would put on a pretense of being in a trance or a pretense of being in an abnormal state. She is consuming hallucinogenics by design. Now we'd like to think that it's because she's going to be the conduit of the gods and that's how she's going to communicate. But it might just be that this is how she puts on a better show. She's going to lose her head. She is going to go places.

Her body is going to contort. And the initiates going to know or at least believe that she is now in communion with the gods and anything she tells me, I must believe. So were the oracles of ancient Greece and Rome really talking to the gods of the underworld? Did the oracles really look into the future and make real prophecies? Or were the trances and convulsions down in those underground chambers, all part of a choreographed show? The oracles of the ancient world were an important part of the lives of the rich and famous at the time.

People really believe that these high priestesses deep in their underground labyrinths, were communicating with the gods and could offer truthful prophecies. But was it all a carefully constructed show, designed to unnerve and disorient the visitor and initiate, and ultimately relieve them of their money? Or was there more to it? Certainly the journey down through the dark, humid and cramped sights lent an otherworldly feel to the whole ritualistic experience, as Jamie and the team found out for themselves. The whole atmosphere of the descent changes once you get beyond the river's ticks.

If you believed in hell, you would be damn sure you have just entered. You had just made the descent to the one and only Hades. You'd have no doubt in your mind. The question is, was it all a big show designed to relieve people of their money? Or was there some real spiritual connection being made? It's fair to say with certainty that the rulers and citizens of ancient Rome believe in it with all their hearts. In the ancient world, the oracles were absolutely fundamental to the ruling elite

and their ability to make decisions about their nations. Nobody would make a decision without covering their bum first and consulting the oracle. It's not enough to talk to the Senate because they all have their own agendas. You need to say, you need to tick the box that you consulted the oracle, you consulted the gods before you went to war. What you didn't consult the Oracle, You're out of here. You're assassinated. So it was a checklist that they had to do and plus it absolved them of any blame should go wrong. I consult to the gods. They told me to invade

There's absolutely no doubt that the people, particularly the important people who went to see oracles didn't just think they were talking to some drugged young woman in a cave somewhere. They genuinely did believe that the oracle herself was actually in communication with a god or in some cases perhaps even at some level became the god or the goddess. Another trick was used in oracular consultations was to make it ambiguous, famous one where the Persian leader goes in and asks, if I attack X, Y, said, what will happen? And the answer was, a great empire will fall.

And the great empire that fell was his, but he couldn't say he hadn't been told. So were people really making some sort of divine contact through the oracles? Or was it just a big show? Personally, I do not believe that there was divine contact with the spirit realm that allowed these sibyls to give prophecies of any accuracy whatsoever. I believe it was more of a consultative effort, typically from the priest, occasionally from the Sybil herself, but in all instances, it's pretty much them telling the Quester, the Initiate, what they think they need to hear.

The desire to know what our futures hold, whether it's for love or money, for work or even death, has fascinated humanity for centuries. The moment people set themselves up as prophets, we came flocking cash in hand, and the business of fortune-telling began. So is there something to it, or is it simply a clever way of relieving people of their cash? Perhaps it's a bit of both.