Freeway Phantom - Payne Interviews Kerri Rawson, BTK's Daughter (Part 1) [bonus]

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Part 1 of Payne Lindsey's extended conversation with Kerri Rawson, the daughter of Dennis Rader.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey guys, it's Payne. If you like true crime or you like comedy podcasts, then I have the perfect show for you. It's called Wisecrack, a new podcast series from Tinderfoot. That's truly a first of its kind. Wisecrack blends stand-up comedy with a very real investigative true crime. Wisecrack follows the comedian Ed Hedges.

Ed experienced the scariest and most traumatic night. of his entire life. Two people were brutally murdered, and then the killer shows up to Ed's house. This night was extremely traumatic, and as a way to process it, he turned the entire story into a stand-up comedy set. And when a TV crime producer stumbles upon his quirky yet creepy performance, it did more than just get a few laughs. It sparked a years-long investigation, forcing him to deal with the truth behind the tragedy. Wisecrack is out now, and I promise you you don't want to miss it. Part comedy special, part true crime documentary. Search wisecrack on your podcast app to follow the show. On this podcast in cells, we unpack an emerging mindset.

I am a loser. If I also women, I want to tame me either. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have My revenge. This is InCells. Listen to Season 1 of InCells on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tide, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Milgar.

I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered, and her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life. what that meant.

For IHeart Podcasts in Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to The Turning River Road on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. Early in the process of making the show, executive producer Payne Lindsay got a call from Carrie

Rawson, daughter of Dennis Rader, the BTK Killer. They sat down together for an interview. What came out of that was a five-hour conversation in Atlanta, where they covered everything from her early childhood to learning about her dad's true identity when she was an adult. You've heard some of it throughout the podcast. But we left a ton on the cutting room floor. So now, I'm pleased to share with you an abbreviated version of Payne's conversation with Carrie Rosson. I hope you enjoy it.

Keeping it simple. Introduce yourself. I'm Carrie Rosson. I'm the daughter of Dennis Raider, who's better known as the BTK killer from Wichita, Kansas. How does it feel saying that? It's been a long process. It's been 16 years. since his arrest in 2005.

It's been a very long process to be able to even say BTK out loud and then to acknowledge that he is my dad and I'm his daughter. Most headlines that involve me are still BTK's daughter. But like I'm a best-selling author now of a memoir about my life, you know, growing up with my father and his arrest and everything. But I'm still not known as Carrie Ross and I'm known probably for eternity as BTK's daughter. But you're not. You're also, you're Carrie.

That was a lot of like my process of healing. I mean, I was Carrie and he was dad and then he was arrested and all of a sudden he was BTK and I lost Carrie. You know, a lot of my book is about that losing me and finding myself again. My husband Darien said in 2012, once I forgave my dad, I came back to Carrie. I was gone for seven years. You know, a lot of who I am and what makes me me, like the person sitting across from you was gone. So when I let go with some of that stuff, that's when I started coming back to me.

But I really didn't really start healing, I don't think, until I started speaking up in the media in 2014. A lot of my later journey was about coming to terms not only with who my dad was, how I knew him, who he actually was, this other side I had to learn. and then coming back to terms with who I am in context of my dad, and then what was I going to do with it? So, I mean, it's just been a massive process for me many years. Where did you grow up? So I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. I was born in June of 1978.

We lived in Park City. It's a small northern suburb of Wichita, so about 5,000 people. Wichita is like a big spread-out metro area, probably about 500,000 now. So I lived nine houses down from my mom's parents, Eileen and Palmer Dietz. So my mom literally moved nine houses down when she married my dad in May of 71. And they bought this three-bedroom ranch that has the exact layout as my grandparents' house. But it has a much bigger yard because, like, my dad loved the garden. So he planted trees and he built this massive garden in the back.

And then he said when I was about two, he had to install. metal fence because before then he didn't have a fence. But he said I was like wandering over to like the neighbors to pet their huge dog, like this wolf like dog. And he was like freaked out. So he had to start like fencing me in by the time I was like to. Were you just curious or what? Oh yeah. I've always just been a go getter like total tomboy adventure just go do anything and everything with my dad. But he would like take me out gardening. You know, I was three or four. He was teaching me about all the plants, the vegetables, growing seasons, soil.

Anything dad was doing I wanted to do. Like, he loved the outdoors, so he was cool and let me get muddy. And my mom hates the outdoors. Like, literally my mom is, like, outside to go, like, home to car to, like, church. Literally, she hates the outdoors. What kind of garden was this? Just, you know, I have, like, a family. garden that he had plotted out. He even turned my bedroom into a greenhouse, like I was three

or four, and he set up solar lights, I mean like the big four lesson lights, and had trays of seedlings. And literally, I couldn't sleep in my room. So I was sleeping like in the bottom buck of my brother's bunk bed. My brother brides three years older than me. And like in my book, I talk about remembering like my dad taking these trays of seeds and then putting them under this light in this attached shed that was right connected to our house. So I literally remember watching my dad take care of these seeds and water on them. Like he was obsessed with gardening when I was little. Like he would throw himself into these things, which, you know, later on we learned he was

literally throwing himself into stuff to distract him from murder, literally. But he was gardening. And then later on it was the dog track that was north of Park City, like late 80s or 90s. He literally was laid off from work, from ADT, was doing work with the census off and on. We didn't have much money. And he was gambling at the dog track. And he was obsessed about it. Like he was like pulling it out of the Wichita Eagle, like all the stats and like trying to like figure out the system. And then later it was stamps. So like 90s up into when he was arrested, he was collecting stamps. And he was doing first-day covers. Like, you sign an envelope

with your name. So he's basically autographing this envelope and then paying extra to have it stamp with this first-day cover and then sent back to him in, like, sealed plastic. Now, did he think that those were going to have values someday? Like, that's like the, those unknown questions, like the ego and the narcissists getting in there having all of, like his autograph on all these envelopes. It sounds like there was always some sort of obsession. Let's go back to just Wichita, like put yourself back there as a kid. What did it look like? I mean, Wichita is like your classic Midwestern town. Unless you count Kansas City, it's the biggest city in Wichita. So it's like known for like avionics. So my grandma Eileen out of high school, she worked at Boeing driving a

Cushman cart for the World War II effort. She literally was a Rosie. the Riveter. Both my grandpa served in World War II. Father was born in Pittsburgh, Kansas, but then lived his first years in Columbus, Kansas with my grandma's family. They moved to Wichita when he was like around five. So they were living on Seneca, like north, central Wichita, about three miles from where I grew up. So your parents met at the church? My dad, he was in the Air Force from I think around 66 to 7. So this is during Vietnam, he graduated from high school, Wichita Heights, in 63, and then he tried community college for a while. He's not a very good student. And my grandpa, who had been a Marine in World War II, told him, you're going to get drafted. So he's like, I don't want you to get drafted. I want you to enlist. Because if you get drafted, you're going to be stuck in the army, and you're going to be stuck, like, in the bush. So my dad enlisted in the Air Force, and he ended up, he never stepped foot in Vietnam. Like, he He traveled to Greece, Turkey, Japan, South Korea.

He brought home all these trinkets and, like, this kimano robe from Japan and, like, influenced by these cultures. And he had these photos of, like, the places he had traveled in Greece and Turkey when I was a kid. He had this big box of mementos. And, like, literally, that's how disconnected he is. Like, this is Vietnam, right? So, like, his two younger brothers, Paul and Bill, both served in Vietnam. Paul was in the Navy on a swift boat, and Bill was a Marine stuck walking the bush. So, like, my uncles came home with PCSD, never talked about the war.

And my dad is, like, talking, like, about that he was vacationing. So when my dad was in the Air Force, he did, like, telephone pole work and wiring. So that's kind of stuff he would incorporate later into his crimes. But he did a lot of stuff with wires and climbing telephone. and polls and communications and things like that. So he was super handy. So he comes back in the summer 70 and my mom grew up at Christ Lutheran. That's our church. So she's grown up at Christ Lutheran. It was crossed from my parents' high school, Wichita Heights. So like my mom and her two sisters and my dad and his brothers, they all went to the same high school. But my mom was a freshman

there when my dad was a senior. So she said she never met him. Your dad went to church every Sunday? So my dad grew up Lutheran, and then when my dad was oversees with the Air Force, when his parents switched to the Lutheran church, my mom had been in since she was little. It was something they both had been brought up, and it was not something you ever questioned. Like, they both always served. He always was either doing communion later on, assistant minister. It was something you did.

Out of your mom, dad, and brother, who are you closest to? out of my family growing up I was definitely probably closest to my dad I was close to my brother we did a lot of stuff but I think looking back you know I probably was closest to my dad why is that just because like dad had fun and wanted to do things and be outside and like things that I ended up enjoying like I said like I could get dirty and be a tomboy and we would walk the dog and we would talk you know I could be free and comfortable with him you know he took me fishing camping that was huge for us. Did he enjoy sharing these things with you?

It's hard when you're over on this side of only knowing my dad as who he is in the context of BTK, you know, or what you know about serial killers to think of this guy being a father and normal and enjoying things. But he needed to be outside. He could get like uptight and angry and difficult and controlling inside. I mean, you would see it in any sort of building like church. family homes anywhere like he just so okay for example it's July of 2003 two weeks before I'm getting married he was doing something in the house like he you know he did a lot of home repairs

he was always fixing something or doing something he left this open toolbox around the corner next to our stove in the kitchen I'm just rounding the corner I'm probably walking too fast like I don't know for like two decades he's barking at me to slow down and not walk so fast And I literally step with my right foot into this open toolbox. Now, he left the toolbox there. He shouldn't have left it there. It's right in the small, narrow walking place. I step into it.

I tear a ligament in my foot. And it's somehow my fault. He like flips and he's yelling at you in that moment because you're hurt because of something he did. Thinking back on it now, is it because things are out of order? I mean, some of it is that control, like obscene amount of need to control. things and to have order and be like nothing disrupting his day. Like at Yellowstone, my mom trips, like we're walking on this path. We're visiting the teetons. We're just because my mom's with us. We're just literally just walking. We're not hiking or anything. My mom didn't do any of that.

Like we're literally just walking on like a normal path. She accidentally trips, falls down a little bit of like a culvert or something. And she's bleeding from her knee. And she's like sprained her ankle. He just erupts, like verbally. abusive, almost physically abusive, mad at her because she's messed up his day. Honestly, she spent so much of that vacation in a hotel. And I thought it was because of her ankle, I thought it's because she was injured. And then it wasn't until 2015 that I asked her on the phone. I said, do you remember Jackson Hole? So we talked about it, about how she felt. And she says, your dad ran my vacation. And what did she mean by that? Just being an asshole, like being a jerk.

Do you think he really feel bad? I mean, I totally think he did because, like, I don't buy the whole, like, this guy just doesn't have feelings and doesn't shut down. Like, if you talk to people that have grown up in, like, verbal and emotional abuse situations, now I wasn't physically or sexually abused, but if you talk to abuse survivors, we all have that ability when we were little to start managing things, you know, manage our parents. You know, you'll talk to kids of, like, alcoholics. you're managing things the best that you can. So why I was aware that like mom was hurt, dad felt bad, I also just went along with dad to go have fun. So I never really thought anything more other than mom doesn't really like this stuff and she's hurt.

So here it is 20 years later, you know, dad's been arrested for 10 years and there's just that hurt and tightness and tenseness in my mom's voice saying, your dad ruined my vacation. Now it's really hard with my mom to process everything that's happening. and asked, so I have to be really careful. So when I was researching, you know, my dad and my life and trying to figure out what to write and deal with all this, I actually literally was in trauma therapy back in 2015 again trying to process all this. So I think my mom probably does hold some answers, but we don't really go there. What do you mean hold some answers? Like somebody like my father is rare, but there's other guys out there.

and we need to catch them, and we need to catch them quicker. One of the reasons I've been so invested in learning about my dad and his crimes is to get more knowledge on these guys to actually show what they really are like, to, like, extend the profiles, so we can catch them quicker. From the studio who brought you the Pikedin Massacre and Murder 101, this is Incells. I am a loser. If I also a woman, I wouldn't date me either. From the dark corners of the web,

an emerging mindset. If I can't have you, girls, I will destroy you. A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes. I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. At a deadly tipping point. Incells will be added to the terrorism guide.

Police say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd killing 10 people. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge. This is InCels. Listen to season one of InCels on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Let's go back a little bit. And do you have any memories of the BTK killings happening in Wichita, before anyone knew that it was your dad or anyone really knew what was going on, do you remember there being a killer somewhere? As far as I know, I do not remember ever hearing the acronym BTK involved in any murders. Before 2004, it was a summer of 2004 when I found out he had come back and communicated. Now, you have to remember there were seven murders in the 70, the Otero family in January of 74.

then two months later was Catherine Bright and he attempted to murder her brother Kevin Bright and then he shut down for a few years and then 77 was Shirley Viann and then in December of 77 was Nancy Fox when my mom was pregnant with me for three years. I never knew any of this going on in the 70s. So when I'm 6th then,

I find out the neighbor lady had gone missing and they thought something bad had happened to her. How did you find that out? I know my parents were talking about it. I'm sure it was probably on the news, because in the 80s, like the news was just on, it's not like it is now with kids where you can just get it on your phone. I know I would have heard my parents talking about Mrs. Hedge missing, and they had a conversation saying that they thought it was the boyfriend.

Was that scary as a kid having a neighbor go missing? Yeah, it altered me pretty bad. Mrs. Hedge was like an acquaintance to us. Marine Hedge, like we would walk by and say hi to her when we were walking down to my grandparents, like with my mom, or we would stop and chat. Don't have a clear memory exactly of my father talking to her, but I do remember stopping and talking to her with my mom. But more of it just acquaintance, hello, how are you?

How are you doing? You know, talk, you know, maybe about gardening or something if she was out in her yard, just like quick. You know, I had never been in her house or anything. How did it make you feel processing that somebody that you knew of in the neighborhood was brutally murdered. See, I mean, that's the thing. Like, when I was six, not only did I know she was missing, like a police officer came by, canvassing the neighborhood, and I was out playing, I was jumping on my red pogo stick. My mom was there in our driveway, and he interviewed my mom

quickly, canvassing, you know, have you seen anything? Do you know anything? You know, I remember, vaguely remember this officer talking to my mom. And then they found her body, and somehow I knew that her body had been found out in the country, and I knew she had been strangled. Why does a six-year-old know that her neighbor lady's been strangled? Where do you think the urge to murder an innocent person comes from?

It's just, they're just a means to an end, unfortunately. I mean, that's what he would say. What do you mean by the? Like, I'm saying when he's calling him a project, he's dehumanizing him. Sure, so he doesn't even look at them as people. He doesn't. He sees them as tools,

something to help him express himself and feel better. What do you think that it is that he's feeling that needs to be fixed so badly? I think it's brokenness. I mean, really, he's taking out something with his murders. He's taking something out, like replacing something inadequate in him to feel better about himself. I don't even know if he knows he's doing it, like to make himself feel bad. better. There's a quote, like, hurt people hurt, right? Like, pain is like grief passed on, like trauma passed on. Like generational by generational. Like, something was wrong with my dad for whatever reasons. And now he's passing it on to these families.

You know, here's this family in Wichita living their life, trying to make ends meet, you know, and four of them were gone like that. Because something's wrong with my dad. what is that that's wrong and then what do we do about it and how do we stop it does that add up though is that who your dad was i would say internally that's probably who he is at the core for those who don't know and only i know so much about this what exactly is a night tear for you so they're pretty common with children it's worse than a nightmare like there's a physical reaction you know like a nightmare you're just kind of having in your had on you might remember in the morning. But like a night terror, I can scream bloody murder.

I'm sitting up terrified. I see things. I fight. So back when you're six years old, describe to me what those night terrors were when they first started. It's always like there's somebody bad in my room there to kill me. It's not necessarily a face or a person. It's more of that feeling that somebody's going to murder you. That something is in the room, though? it's something very bad is in the room to kill you always. And so as a little girl, I didn't, I wasn't able to describe it to that level that I am now. But I was like sitting up in bed screaming and it was always my mom, always my mom that would come sit by my bed. And so she's trying to rationalize with somebody that's like freaked out and you're shaking. Like sometimes

I'll be shaking. My heart will be beating really fast. I mean, like I even used to wet the bed when I was little sometimes. You know, she would say it's okay, Carrie, you're safe. No one's here. There's no one bad in the house. You're safe. Like, safe is sort of like that key word to anchor me. Like, you're safe. You're okay.

Like, even if you weren't, your dad was aware that you were being affected by Hedges' death. Like, he's quoted in 2016 as saying he was sure it was from there. And I don't think I even really, like, connected my night terror starting, like, to that. Now, as it more complicated than that, maybe. But he was aware. and he found it empowering, but he didn't get me any help. Thinking back to your six-year-old self, having suppressed certain details before, your six-year-old self laying in your bed at night, fearful of something being in your room,

do you ever think that could have actually been your dad in there? I mean, our best guests from experts I've talked to is that very well could have been my dad practicing something, coming back from something, and I've been really scared me, Orrin. I mean, he could even have been in there getting off. We don't know. I mean, we know I was not sexually abused, but my dad, like, masturbated again, like next to Josie Otero after he strangled her, right? So, and he did that, at least with Nancy Fox. So who is to say my dad wasn't in my room getting off? We don't know. I mean, literally when I talk to detectives, they're like, it's very possible. Do you think that you were ever really in danger?

My dad is quoted in Ramsland's book saying, I don't know. I loved my family. I loved Paula. He was very, very protective. And like if anybody had messed with us, he would got in their way. I mean, he's quoted as saying he loved us very much. You know, he was worried about us. In the 70s, this whole community is erupting in the sphere after the Oteros. And then in October of 74, he sent his first communication.

There's this fear in this community of the serial killer as he's communicating with the police. in the 70s, murdering more people. My mother even is quoted as saying, like, she was scared and she talked to my dad about it and he said, you're fine, don't worry, you're safe. Because he knew she was safe because he's not going to murder her. You know, she worked at the VA and she would be out late sometimes with dinner with girlfriends, you know, and he was working at ADT during the day and then he was doing, going to WSU for criminal justice at night. He was gone a lot, plus doing all his BTK stocking and whatever. So she was home alone, you know, trying to raise my brother and me.

She was scared. But he reassured her and told her she was fine. But even he said that he was worried. Almost just subconsciously from himself. But he also is fully aware that if he's capable of doing this, then somewhere else out in the world, maybe someone else is too. Exactly. And I think he had that keen ability to read bad people and know, like to stay clear.

Do you feel like he tricked you your whole life? No, I don't think he was like, oh, I'm going to trick everybody. Well, I mean, do you feel like he in any way cons you? You know, it's deeper than lying. I mean, of course, he's lying to my mom when he's saying he's on a campout. Sure. But it's betrayal. It's deeper than that. You know, it's like somebody going and having an affair or something, but it's deeper than that.

It's like everyday betrayal. Like I'm saying he is so disconnected in his brain. He accepts himself. and he's like, well, you all were fine with me. Well, we didn't know. Like, hello. How do you think someone's going to react? We're all reacting like normal, same people.

We're not going to be the same with you, ever. Do you ever think that to get to that point to where he's actually going to commit these crimes, that he's willing to risk everything, even you guys, the family? I just, I don't think he has that connect all the way there. he's not thinking about the consequences to our family. It's also about the fear. What do you mean?

Like he said he felt empowered by my fear. So like I shared I shared monster movies with my dad like Frankstein, Dracula, Jocelyn Hyde, he's really big on Jekyll and Hyde. Like he literally is Jekyll and Hyde. You know, Jack the Ripper, all that stuff. I grew up with that with my dad.

So like in the 90s, like we went and we saw seven together when we were walking out to the car. My dad wanted to know, how did it make me feel? It wasn't so much what do you think in the movie was a movie good or bad. It was how does it make you feel? Because he wanted to know, like, experience what I was feeling scared in there watching that movie. Having seen Seven, it is a pretty morbid movie. Did you feel scared watching that?

Yeah, I mean, just like a scary movie will scare me. Seen it once. It bothered me enough. I never wanted to see it again. And then after I found out with my dad that I'd seen it with him, I mean, I literally watched 8mm with my dad at home. Or I'm like watching Pulp Fiction with like the scenes in the basement, like that's seared in my mind watching that with my dad.

You had a reaction that I won't see it again unless I have to, but, you know, I get it. How do you think your dad felt? When we're talking about somebody like, my dad, they have to really push that envelope to fill. It's not that they can't fill. They just got to push it in a way that's like going to cause ma'am and death to fill. Like he said it was hard for him to have. have a normal sexual relationship because he has to push that so far

to get that release. So my guess is when he's asking me, how does it feel when he wants to know how does regular affair fill? How does it feel to be a regular person and be a woman and be vulnerable? Do you feel like a part of why he would ask you how you felt about that movie

is to see if any of his tendencies were in you? I don't think he was ever. scared we would grow up to be. He made sure we towed the line and didn't even have a speeding ticket like we had a cussing jar in the kitchen. His three brothers turned out fine. So if you're going to do nurture nature debate, I mean, all the same genetics and the same home life and they're fine. So what makes one person turn into this and a monster and other people not be? He always tried to tow the line even though he wasn't. For his parents, he didn't want to be in trouble. He wanted to be a good kid. Like I think he wanted to be a white hat and he wanted

he wanted us to turn out better. He gifted me strength. I mean, some of it was just innately born and some of its mom, but I'm independent and I'm strong and I'm fearless because my dad raised me like that. I was like the little girl going after the wolf dog when I was two, right? Like I was fearless, built that up in me and I think he did it because he knew I needed to be strong and independent because of something like this happened. I mean, part of it is just his nature to be that way and then he just took me along and he never questioned weakness and he never As much as he seems to hate women and take out this anger on them, he was so protective of me and built me up to be strong.

Now, he could, like, cut into me verbally and hurt me. But most of the time, he was just about you're going to carry your weight and you're going to, I'm going to do this, and your brother's going to do it, and you're going to do it. Like, I was jealous. I couldn't go to the Boy Scouts with him. So that's who I was, even though I was struggling with some mental illness. That's who I was.

Like, there was only a few times I saw my dad. cry. I saw him cry when my cousin Shelley died. When he came home after my grandpa died, like the most, almost most despair I saw, we were in the Grand Canyon, we were on the Tonto Trail. It was day five. It was very hot.

He was miserable because he couldn't literally go to the bathroom. He's off forever. I'm dying in the heat, and he comes back and he says, just leave me here to die. And he's just so shut down and so dysfunctional at that moment, just miserable.

I had been that way on day one. It was like we had flipped in those five days, and I was the one that became strong at that point. It's so hard as a girl or as a kid to see, even though I was an adult, to see your dad broke down in that way, to not be physically strong and to be weak. I never knew my dad weak ever, ever, ever, ever. And so to see him, like, broke down and almost crying,

like, just leave me here to die. And I'm like, I'm not leaving you here to darn. I'm hot. Let's go find some shade. you know that's when like that power changed like that's where I became strong what he was showing you was sincere though or did it just feel that sincere I mean the hard ass detectives will tell you he was BTK he didn't give a crap well of course yeah and you got to get over that but they didn't experience what you experienced no they

did not and they never experienced him like Dennis I think he has the full capacity to love, care, protect, take care of his own, and the full capacity to murder people. And that's what's really terrifying, I think. That's where people do not want to go and explore because they want to isolate and they want to put these guys in a box and call him a monster and say, you're just this. And all of this was pretend and a cover and a roost, that's a dad word, like, and that they're just this thing really. And now that we've identified you, we've labeled you, we've filed you, way we're on to the next.

But honestly, it's because he was all these other things that he was able to get away with this for so long. Exactly. He never had a police record. At the most, he had a ticket. I was with him when he got a speeding ticket very much like, yes, sir, no, sir, sorry, sir, won't happen again, sir. Almost like there was just something like evil inside him that was more powerful than everything else because he wasn't able to suppress. it enough to not do it, at least not all the time. No, not all the time, but like that's one of the things about him is that he did have that control, that he could control it most of the time. Like he wasn't a spree killer, he wasn't out of control. That's an intense amount of control to be able to control that amount of energy, loss,

desire, whatever you want to call it, and not always do what he did. Do you ever think that we're maybe giving it too much credit and, overcomplicating it ourselves and just at some point he made a decision to do a bad thing and he made the decision over and over but it's like I said it's an accumulation of things and I think you know if you're going to talk to a psychologist are going to talk about conduct disorders and you know or you're going to talk to profilers and things I mean there's places where these guys overlap with their tendencies because no one made him do this no absolutely not no he wanted to he wanted to but what is that in somebody that wants to do that

Most of us, the majority of us, have that moral line we won't cross. Even if we're like a lower level criminal or we're doing something in the spur of a moment, there's a huge difference there. Like what is it in these guys that has to do this to get that release? And then what is it about murder that turns them on? Were you ever around your dad when the BTK was mentioned or on the news or the newspaper or in past? Was it ever mentioned out loud or in the same room as you? Not me, but my mom and my brother, at least my brother, has memories of being in the house in 2004 when the 30th anniversary special ran for the Oteros, like it being on and my dad watching it. But other than that, there isn't, I think that's about it.

You and your dad had a lot of fun things in common, like reading the true crime books and Stephen King and. and the gardening and just different pastimes. So in a lot of ways, you guys had some similarities. But I would be curious just for you, how are you different than your dad? What is the main difference here? What is, how is he different? I'm goodness. I'm my mom.

You know, I mean, my dad had some of that in him, but he's the pessimist. My mom was the optimist. I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm my mom. I'm the person that loves this person, even at their worst. that just wants to be next to somebody and, you know, enjoy their time with them. You know, I'm all love. I'm all feeling. I'm all processing and emotion. That's what I am. And somehow I was raised by this monster.

This is part one of a conversation between Carrie Rawson and Payne Lindsay. tune for part two, which comes out next week. On this podcast in cells, we unpack an emerging mindset. I am a loser. If I also women, I want to tame me either. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge. This is, Incells. Listen to season one of InCells

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tide, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Milgar. I was just completely in shock.

Liz's father murdered. and her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Brian Coburger who killed the four University of Idaho students.

Nearly 30 months of silence Until Bombshell development, Brian Coburger has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony. The defense are on the sinking ship. This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sacred Scandal is back. True Crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story. When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen.

I was 19 years old when Marcia and Masel, the leader of the Legionaries, look me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding, escaping took courage, risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to sacred scandal, the many secrets of Marcial Masiel on the IHeart Radio app, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.