Freeway Phantom - Payne Interviews Kerri Rawson, BTK's daughter (Part 2) [bonus]

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Part 2 of Payne Lindsey's extended conversation with Kerri Rawson, the daughter of Dennis Rader.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I am a loser. If I also women, I want to tame me either. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have My revenge. This is InCells. Listen to Season 1 of InCells on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tide, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Milgar.

I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered, and her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Brian Coburger who killed a four.

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This is part two of a conversation between Payne Lindsay and Carrie Rosson, the daughter of BTK, aka Dennis Rader. So who is your dad? Is he all these different things? Is he whoever he's mirroring in the moment and then he's something else at this point in time? Is he all these things? Is he anybody? or is he no one?

People would say Dennis Raider, it's 90% Dennis Raider and 10% BTK. The detective says he thinks he's 90% BTK and 10% Dennis Raider. And I want to push back and say, no, he's 90% my dad and just a little bit BTK. I finally kind of come to this point

where he's both all the time. When I was growing up and we would be out fishing, say the game warden's coming along, you know, just to check, make sure you're got your permit and you're not over a limit. it, he would change. Like he always, my dad was really big on uniforms and jobs with uniforms, like with the military

ADT compliance officer, but he almost had a uniform deficient. Like, he would change his hat to walk the dog or change his shoes to go take out the garbage. It was like, I don't know how intentional he was, but he had a tendency to take it to the max so that he looked exactly like he would expect somebody to look. And then the game warden comes along and he changes, his posture changes, he strains up, He changes this voice. He's very, like, respectful. And yes, sir, no, sir.

He talks cop. But he doesn't quite talk cop because it's a warden. So he talks warden. I'm telling you he's mirroring. So, like, if he was sitting here with you, he would sit like you because he's trying to make you feel more comfortable. I don't think he feels comfortable anywhere he is, so he's trying to blend in.

Is it because he's not feeling comfortable or is it because he wants everyone to just accept him face value. This guy is fishing. This guy's being very respectful. You know, I'm not aware that he has bondage stuff in his car that he's going to do stuff with after the kids go to bed in the tent. Like, it's very careful. But you see it like the arrest video, there's a clip of him

where they're pushing him and he's, like, they're trying to get him to say he's BTK. He changes. Like, I know him well enough. Like, the voice changes just, like, the way he looks. People have said, like, his eyes change. What in the world is the... It's those layers and those masks of, like, removing.

that every everyday guy, Midwest Mr. Dennis Raider mask, and letting you see BTK. I mean, the only person that survived BTK is Kevin Bright. And so really, like, here my dad had had this secret for 31 years. No one knew who he was. The cops were pushing him for hours on that Friday. He was arrested. They know, I mean, they know it's him. And you finally just let's it go and lets him know.

Like, they're like, say it, you know. They had to push him so hard They were like telling him We're going to tear up your house Like don't do this to Paula Don't do it to the kids They're like we know you have souvenirs somewhere You've got to have at least

Wear release driver's license Like where is that stuff And it was under the floorboards in our hallway He had a false bottom Built underneath a storage drawer in our hallway Do you think he feels bad Of how he traumatized your family So they literally did use us to wedge

That's how you know that dad did care about us and that we mattered to him because that was what they used to wedge him. And if he didn't care about us, he wouldn't have cared about that house being torn up. And he did care because he knew what it would have done to my mom. But you can see where he changes. There's video of him at the trial. Now, he's very uncomfortable. He's in his church suit.

My uncle's cared enough. They went and got his suits out of our house and shoes so that he wouldn't just be in prison gear. He's in court. He's uncomfortable because he, you know, he's being seen. in being known. You know, here's this big narcissist that wants to be known, and now people know and he doesn't, he's not comfortable with it. Well, he's not in power anymore either. He's not. He's completely out of power. So he's trying to maintain power by being in like that power suit.

And he's standing there in court and he knows he's going to plead guilty. And he's expecting the judge to just have him say, I'm guilty. Maybe one time or on the 10 counts. Now, all those family are there, all the detectives are there. He hates the detectives. They know what he is. And just trying to understand how somebody could do these things. This is kind of a personal question. If you're uncomfortable, it's fine. But do you know much about the sex life between your mother and father? My dad's talked about like his sex life with my mom.

I mean, Douglas goes over at Ramsland's book. And now when he was arrested, one of the very first concerns was had we been sexually abused. You know, and I know the pastor asked. right away to check to make sure we weren't in some, like, horrific abuse situation that we were covering up. What, I mean, my dad has even said it was just like a normal sexual relationship. Like, he says in Rampson's book, he would never hurt my mom or somebody like her that he loved her and that he could have a normal, giving normal relationship with somebody like my mom. But these sort of bondage fantasies and stuff like that fetishes that never made its way into the bedroom?

As far as I know, no. Now, there's some debate. My dad claims in Ramsland's book that my mom caught him twice playing his bondage stuff in the house. He didn't think she was going to come home when she came home because he said he liked the mayor, the full mayor in our bathroom and in our hallway. Now, my dad is saying this on record, at least a Ramsland probably before. Okay. So it's so well known that it's even recreated in mind. Hunter. Now I haven't seen the scene. So I'm finding out in 16 that supposedly my mom saw him

twice and almost divorced him or threatened a divorce. It's what my dad claims. So I'm finding out in 16 so I call my mom and she says, no, no, no, no, no, that never happened. Do you believe that? I mean, my mom's the truth teller. But like dad says that there was a book. My mom got like self-help book, trying to figure out what was wrong with my dad and help him. And he says that other people back that up too, that, like, that she had talked to some friends or something. About what? About trying to figure out why does this guy have this weird fetish and, like, why is he in women's clothing and how can I help him? I know the book. It was like on the top of my bookshelf when I was a kid and I got in trouble for finding it. What was it?

Just something I would have to find the title is in Ransland's book. I know that that book exists. So does the rest of the store exist? Who knows? And my dad's a pathological liar. So like, what is true? But he's so honest about other things. Is anybody going to push my mom to find out? And does it really matter? I mean, are you still going to jump from this man in women's clothing to BTK? And the thing is, in hindsight, it's really easy to sit over here and say, well, he had all these tendencies or he spelled this way. But like, a lot of the stuff the police knew they never released until after he was arrested. You know, there was this puzzle. He sent this weird word search puzzle thing in one of his communications in 2004. Far as I know, that was not released

publicly until after he was arrested. And I, after he was arrested, I went and I printed it off. And I swear I found my address in it and some initials. Now, am I finding things in there that he didn't even intend to be in there in hindsight, possibly? As far as I know, that was not released, or I had never seen it. I don't think it was released before. After he murdered Nancy Fox, he used a pay phone. He was actually in his ADT truck parked there, and there's a very quick audio recording of him calling in,

and he called in a homicide, which is kind of a weird word for a non-cop to use, but he's trying to talk cop, right? Because he's reporting it. Now that recording was played over and over. As far as I know, I did not hear it until the night of his arrest, I was trying to alibi him.

I went digging into crimes I found crimes that weren't even his everything got me really messed up and I found the recording I listened to it and I said that's dad but I wasn't home in 04 so there's like this lingering question

if I had been home in 04 and like because I was into like detective stuff and growing up and all of that with that like would I have been trying to solve this crime at home there's that question of like what would I have known

and then what would have happened in my home if we had, like, found out, would we be alive? I can't answer that. What's this with these frog figurines? So after my dad pled guilty in June of 2005, somehow Larry Hatterberg, who was a local Wichita cake TV journalist, was able to call him in the president interviewing. Now, this was very rare.

There hasn't been much access to my dad. Somehow, Larry was able to make this phone call to my dad. He's telling Larry that there was a little bit of, a demon frog in his brain named Bader, B-A-T-T-E-R, that was making him commit these murders. How do you feel about that? In 05, I knew it was bullshit. Now it's 2019. I'm finally home in Wichita.

I'm sitting down with Larry for the first time in my life in Susan Peters. They're working for PBS, K-P-T-S. They had covered all the B-T-Ks. They had covered the trial. They were great people to work with. And Larry's bringing up that he interviewed my dad and he brought up the frog. So I'm sitting there on camera, and I said the frog is bullshit, Larry. You know, maybe I said crap because I'm trying not to cuss on camera.

And then, you know, we go on with the interview. My dad has a TV. He saw that interview. He saw my other interviews. He heard me on the radio. So he hears me calling him out on the frog. He's hearing that in February of 19. And a few weeks later, in the mail, I get an 8 by 10 photo I can show you of a demon frog.

And at the bottom, he writes Bader. This is from your dad to you. Yeah, because, one, he knows the frog's BS. He knows that I know the frog's BS. So, one, he's kind of proud of me for knowing that it's BS. And two, he's just reminding me to remember him. Why is he making all this stuff up? Because he likes to yank people's chains.

That's why he's not helpful. Like, literally, Douglas talks about they went to Son of Sam to find out about BTK. And Son of Sam was not bored. he wasn't interested, and they said, look, BTK's mentioning you, and they got Son of Sam to talk for hours, right? And to try to help them develop these profiles. My dad is not helpful. They don't go to my dad, as far as I know, because he likes to yank everybody's chains. Like, I've talked to a detective, and he said, after Ramsland's book came out, they had to go clear a few more cases that were close enough to my dad and brought up in the book, unsolved cases.

And he's like, we had to go out there and talk to your dad. Of course, it makes my dad feel empowered and remembered and important and they hate it. You know, they don't want, nobody wants to deal with my dad. He's such a jerk. Like, he's not helpful. I mean, that's why I had to start cutting him out of my life. It was like I was getting stronger. Like, as I got to know who he was in this other side and I started speaking up and I was becoming stronger as a person and surviving this, not just surviving him, but starting to really start getting my life back.

I was getting strong enough to push back against him. and call out is bullshit. And so I'm on a podcast. You know, we're talking about serious things, but also that dark humor and just releasing and like, damn, look what I've survived. So I'm probably calling him names than just being flippin, being myself.

When one of his minions, one of his fan club saw it, they called my father at the prison, they said she's in Orlando now, she's moved. I hadn't told him I had moved. And she's over her saying these things about you. And so he literally is trying, my dad's trying to get a hold of me. Now, is he trying to get a hold of me because he's worried about me? Or is it because he's a narcissistic stalker?

So he has these minions, then reach out to me through email and social media, like a handful over the last two or three years. They'll write me and say, well, we talk to your dad. He's a really nice guy. We don't know what your deal is. Like, they literally just invade, like, my Instagram. That is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous because he uses them.

They're serial killer like minions, like fan club women that get attached to my dad. He's using them. He's very well known for like the murder black market now with memorabilia. I mean, it's like a back alley thing. These serial killers and well-known criminals, they like do art or they'll sell like, on Instagram, there's like these murder museum stores and you can pay. hundreds of dollars for these drawings from these guys. So there's a son of Sam law that people like my father cannot profit off of his murders, right? And it's there to protect the victims and protect

families like mine. But then like you talk to these art dealers and stuff and they're like, well, we're just trying to make a living. I'm like, you're literally selling like a sheet of paper that's got somebody's pubes on it. Like, why is this a thing? So my father, like in 15 was like, well, if you want to make some money, he's like, you can help me with this. So, like, literally he's skirted the son of Sam laws for six years. Is he actually skirting the law or is he just breaking the law? Sounds like he's just breaking the law. I mean, he's legit breaking the law, but nobody's really stopped it.

He sent sweatpants in the last few years that were staffed raider for the prison. He sent gold fillings. Now, why does he even have his gold fillings? Or is he the one actually sending him? Like, is there a black market at the prison? So, I mean, it's been in the news. You know, I've talked about it. The Eagles looked into it.

This has been getting worse and worse. So I started talking to some detectives about it. And I started cutting, on my last letter to my dad was in the fall of 17 because my dad was trying to insert himself into my media and trying to insert myself. He wanted to do like an art book with me and he wanted to be part of my book. And I couldn't trust him anymore. I couldn't trust anything I wrote him because journalists were contacting him or contacting me to try to get to him. So I didn't mean for that to be my last letter. It just was. Now, it's like spring of 20. I just

got out of the hotball. I had COVID pneumonia in March of 20. It's like April of 2020. I'm like in bed rest recovering from COVID. Of course, he doesn't know this. And I'm finding out on Instagram, somebody contacted me that somebody sent my dad the front page of my book. Now my dad's not allowed in my book. So if somebody tried to send my dad my book, the mail room at the prison would stop it. But somebody tore out the front page of my book that I had autographed. There aren't that many out there. And he had done a BTK autograph. He's not legally allowed to be doing that. So he's known for this BTK autograph that he sent to the media in the 70s. They used it to authenticate his work in the 2004. He's well known for this autograph. Does that make you angry? Oh, I was so just

torn up and mad and just disappointed. Just disappointed. And the man I knew, and my father that we had done all this work. We were communicating. It was just dad and me again. And then to find out he's autographing my book with his upside-down B that are like boobs with a T and they're like a penis on my book. So like I contacted detective and I was like, I'm done.

Now, I didn't sign anything. I didn't do anything official, but he took care of it. He's had a long time sitting in prison to do some introspection, I would imagine. But doing things like signing pictures of girls' dead bodies doesn't give me the impression that he cares more about why or how he did this, just that he did it at all. Yeah, I mean, that's a sign of no remorse and horrible behavior on his part if he ever wanted any sort of even letter relationship with me. Like, that's not showing any sort of growth, any sort of change, any sort of, I'm sorry. That's just him being a dickhead.

That's him being BTK. From the studio who brought you the Pikeson Massacre and Murder 101, this is Incells. I am a loser. If also a woman, I wouldn't date me either. From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset. If I can't have you, girls, I will destroy you. A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resists.

resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seat of loneliness explodes. I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. At a deadly tipping point. Incells will be added to the terrorism guide. Police say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd killing 10 people.

Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge. This is insults. Listen to Season 1 of Incells on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Law & Order fans, I'm Anasiga Nikolaazi, host of Law and Order Criminal Justice System. I'm here to let you know that we're launching our second season, this time focusing on the evolution of terrorism in the United States, both domestic and international. We're going back to the beginning, looking at how and why terrorism became so prevalent. and how law enforcement pivoted to help combat it.

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It's a limited offer, so make sure you grab it before it's too late. Once you're all signed up, you'll get access to some of IHeart's other chart-topping true crime shows, like betrayal, The Godmother, Burden of Guilt, American Homicide, and loads more. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you a brand new season of Betrayal Weekly. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and 4, and every single episode of Betrayal Weekly ad free with an IHard True Crime Plus subscription,

available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, they'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Weekly one week, ahead of everyone else available only to iHeart true crime plus subscribers so don't wait head to abel podcast search for iHeart true crime plus and subscribe today i almost feel like once he became outed as the btk killer it almost took over or something once the secret was exposed maybe since he no longer had to suppress it his entire being is more overcome by it. It at least appears that way based on the way he's communicating about it. Yeah, but he's still protective

like he won't talk crime with me. He won't talk BTK. He doesn't like the acronym with me. Doesn't want to. It seems like he's ashamed of it around you. Well, he's protective of me, right? But then he wants me to remember him, like on my birthday or Mother's Day. He's thinking about me or he's he wanting me to remember him. So he's making me a card or he's sending me a creepy photo. I'm not a photo, but a drawing of like these these sea creatures with these gaping teeth. He calls himself the Kansas Pisces,

his zodiac is Pisces, and he got into all these, like, zodiac stuff now, astrology, and he calls himself the Kansas Pisces, and he calls it like the canvas with a sea canvas cave, his BTK cave. So, like, after Ram's book came out, she let him make book plates. So again, I literally have a photo of it.

He drew a Bondi track. Like, it's literally an upside-down Bondi drag. because he said in 2004, his last murder, he thought about hanging her upside down. So he draws this bonding track in black and white. Somebody photocopies several of these for him. Who is this person? I don't know.

He's coloring them. He's numbering him and autographing them, and they're going out to people that bought Ram's book. So, like, finally, somebody came to me from the media and said, can you vouch and vet this for your dad? Because sometimes people come to me with something and say, is this your dad? And usually, if I know, I know.

They just want that, like, someone that knows, knows. But instead of spending that same amount of time and effort and energy into making amends with you guys, he's relishing in all the evil things that he did to a degree. Who didn't notice it's a bonnie track? That's insane to me. Like, did the criminologist, you know? Somebody's letting stuff slip through here. I mean.

Right. And so I've been pressing on that. Why is, like, the girl that has no criminology training finding the bondage rack? Like, it's not really awesome that I know my dad in that way now. Did a part of you want to go back to just the good times you had with your dad? Oh, absolutely. Is that what you were trying to do by communicating with him? I mean, early on after his arrest, I started riding him within, like, the first week.

We knew my dad was guilty early on, and so we basically started a riding campaign letting him know, like, that we knew he was guilty, literally, like, there's letters that I've shared where I'm saying, like, you know you're guilty, please take this guilty plea for, like, the community, the victim's families, our family, stop putting us through all this hell, you know, man up and take the plea. So from March of 05 until when he pled in June of 05, we were all on this writing campaign. My brother, my mom, me, you know, old friends, people in church, lots of families. and then after he pled guilty, my mom never wrote him again. Why? She was done. Did a part of you feel like you wanted to make it better somehow?

I wanted to help him. That back and forth has got to be just so draining and frustrating. Yeah, you just want to die. It's almost like you can't let go of that feeling that you are my dad. I do love you. I do want you to be okay. I want to understand how you got this way. But at the same time, I'm so mad, and so what is the two major feelings you have, like going back and forth between?

You just have to find that balance and try not to sit here too long, but you have to find that balance. And so day to day, you know, I live my life and I'm a mom, I'm a writer, an advocate. I try to find something good. I had to get to a point of, like, coming to terms with what dad was, coming to terms with who I am in context of my dad. and then after therapy in 2015 figuring out what the hell is like going to do this and then seeing that it was doing some good me talking and knowing that there was some good that could come out of this and that I could almost I can't reset what my dad did I can't give people their lives back

when you've told people who you are and who your father is have you seen them change the way they act towards you or just even their facial expressions yeah I mean usually get that like oh my god like what am I going to do with this now? I mean, I literally was just on an interview with BBC radio and she didn't know my interviewer

didn't know my background story and so she's just sitting there saying like like almost oh my gods, why you're on the interview. You know, now you're not impersonal with that but you're kind of like, you came to interview me so you should be able to deal. There's just like this, you have to decide who to tell and when.

So literally like as I'm traveling for work I'm traveling to discuss my father, discuss my journey, to advocate for people like me to heal to advanced knowledge, right? I should be proud of how far I've come. I should be proud of who I am. I should be proud that I have this book. But do I really want to tell, like, you're sitting next to somebody in an airplane? They're like, what do you do for work?

Do you tell them that you're writing? So, like, literally, I met the salon last week. You're chatting. What do you do for work? I'm a writer. What did you write? do you answer that? What would your answer be?

It just really depends on the situation. Like if I can get away with not saying, you know, I wrote a book called a serial killer's daughter. I try not to. Like literally the lady that did my nose, we chatted for two hours about everything else. And then she wanted to connect with me on Instagram. And I said, just Google me. You know, that's like my go-to answer sometimes with people still is just Google me.

you'll find me in 30 seconds because it's easier than trying to explain who I am and who my dad is and what I do. Is it strange at all that this is your work now? It's not the life I would have chose at all. You know, a lot of coming back to life and finding myself and what's trying to figure out, what am I going to do with this? Like, this isn't, obviously I didn't choose this life. I didn't choose my father to be this.

I would do anything for him not to be BTK. I would do anything to just have my dad, like to wipe everything. out he did and just have my dad and just be normal and nobody knew who I was. This is reality. A lot of my trauma therapy, a lot of dealing with things was coming to terms with it. Like, I didn't even know I was a writer. I mean, I had done like AP English in high school. I went to the same high school as my parents graduated in 96. Then I was pre-vets. So I was a science track. I ended up with a life science degree, elementary education degree. I had no idea I was a writer. And then these people came along and they said, we think you naturally have some gift for writing and then you can hone it.

Writing ended up being the thing that could reach those broken, shattered places in me that nothing else could, that therapy couldn't. So in 2015, unfortunately, because I was trying to get everything so right and accurate for that interview, I basically unleashed all the stuff I had not dealt with with my dad, like crime scene photos, details of these people, these victim's faces of my father. And I had like unleashed all of it. And I was falling apart. My night terrors were horrible. I couldn't sleep. I was getting the images of these dead women in my head. What would you see? Literally like I had looked at the crime scene photos and now like it was like seared like trauma in my brain of like the woman strangled. Like possibly with like the ties still are there

blood. Like, I literally had, like, Nancy Fox's face stuck in my head. And so I had to go back to trauma therapy. I had seen the trauma therapist in 07, and I went back in 15, literally almost like crawling into her office. And when I went in in 07, I barely could say BTK. I was like whispering BTK to her. Why? I was fearful of my dad for two years. I was scared to death of him. realistically. I mean, I know he's in solitary. I know he's a maximum security. I know he's an old man even when he was 60. I know he wasn't ever going to hurt me. But you've got to realize like when you've been in a situation with somebody like my dad and you're a survivor of like verbal and emotional abuse, you can go back and be that four-year-old with a scary dad. But now

like you find out so much more. So you're like, I mean literally like, I'm sure. showing you the cover of my book. Like, that photo sets me off. How do you feel when you see that? Well, it's his arrest photo, so he's really mad and sullen because he's been interviewed for like 30 hours. And he's in his prison orange, and he's pissed as hell because he's been caught and he hasn't had any sleep.

And they interviewed him for 30 hours after he was arrested. And then they told him they were done with him. They had everything they needed. He had confessed. And they took a photo at me. When you see that picture, do you see your dad? No, this is my dad. That's my college graduation. And how do you feel when you see that picture?

Just happy, like happy memory. I mean, it hurts now. It hurts to seem like that. But I mean, literally, I'm decorating the Christmas tree with him. I'm putting an angel on the tree when I was little. He had to have me lifted up. It was like we took turns every year. I got to one year and my brother the next. Both pictures of your dad, but you feel differently about both of them.

Realistically, this is my dad. But literally, I was just in trauma. therapy like a month ago in in Orlando now where I live and she's reading my book to help me and she sent me off with this photo and we ended up talking for an hour we ran down like BTK holes because literally and then I realized that photo had triggered me so now watch what am I going to do I'm going to flip it this is my book and I don't like it's sitting there on my bookshelf with dad I didn't have any choice they put him on the cover so I'm literally flipping it right now. So I don't have to look at it. But it's better than being torn up inside and questioning

everything, questioning yourself and questioning reality and dying. So it's either dying inside or this. So it's this. And what is this? Helping, hopefully. I mean, it's hard to sit here and talk and you're probably like, why is she doing this to herself? I mean, it helps me to talk about it, it gets some of that out. Like, I'm literally, you know, if I go back into trauma therapy, And I'm going to be like, well, I cried at this moment. And she's like, okay, well, there's something in there we've got to dig at. But I've been told by so many people I'm helping. I want to help.

I've always wanted to help. I wanted to help my dad, right? I'm like, the little girl wanting to help my dad not be angry. Like, I'm the opposite of him. Well, I think it's what you're doing now. So I, it helps me and it helps other people. You said earlier that you think that your dad was 90% Dennis Raider. 10% BTK, do you feel like once the news broke and there became fan clubs and different weird stuff like that,

that it may be further empowered the BTK in Dennis Raider to where he almost became more proud of it? Yeah, I mean, when I talk to detectives, they're like, the worst thing you can do to somebody like my dad is not talk about it, not talk to him, not give him any power. not ask him anything, not come to him with anything, but just completely not talk about him like he doesn't exist. That's the worst thing you can do to my father and probably the best thing you can do. And so like when we're talking about the word monster or something, these guys become bigger than life

because of all the lore and the legend around him and the massive amount of impact they've had in the decades of people that have studied them and made careers around them and trying to solve these things and figure out what's wrong with these guys and how can we stop them quicker. Like, they become these big, huge, bigger-than-life things.

But are we still applying that same sort of rigid psychopathy profile to the guys we're trying to catch now? Or are we looking for the D'Angelo's and the Raiders? Are we? I don't know. Maybe somebody else can answer that. Do they still exist? Are they still active? And are we looking for the right? Or are we looking for that narrow list of what a psychopath is?

Thanks again to Carrie Rosson for reaching out and being such a pivotal part of this show. You can find her books, including a serial killer's daughter, and Breaking Free, at Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get your books. And remember to listen to the main series of Monster BTK and even more bonus content early and completely add-free on IHeart True Crime Plus. Thanks for listening. On this podcast Incells, we unpack an emerging mindset. I am a loser. If I also women, I wouldn't date me out there. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge. This is Incells. Listen to Season 1 of Incells on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tide, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Milgar.

I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered, and her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sacred Scandal is back, the hit True Crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ.

This season, she's telling her story. When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia de Macelle, the leader of the legionaries, look me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding. Escaping took courage, risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to sacred scandal, the many secrets of Marciol Macelle on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It was an unimaginable crime. It's four consecutive live terms for Brian Coburger who killed the four University of Idaho students. nearly 30 months of silence until. Bombshell development, Brian Coburger, has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony. The defense are on the sinking ship. This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice. Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.