Getting Naked: The Podcast - Know Your Narcissist

Episode Date: April 22, 2026

Valerie and renowned psychologist, professor, and author of the NY Times bestseller “It’s Not You,”  Dr. Ramani Durvasula engage in a hard and informative conversation about narcissism and narcissistic relationships, including the harm, the warning signs, and the “radical acceptance” necessary to begin to come out the other end.

Hi, everyone. Thanks for stopping by. This is Getting Naked, the podcast. I had the most amazing conversation with Dr. Romney. She is the author of It's Not You, which was a book that helped me immensely. She has written three books on narcissism and narcissistic people. And this is about identifying and healing. So we talk a lot about healing. I hope you enjoy today's podcast because I certainly did, and I'm going to have her back. Valerie's Place, your digital home for everything, me, whether it's the full library of Valerie's home cooking, my new cooking show, now Val's Cooking, or in my book club, and now we're reading. Valerie's Place has something for everyone. Subscriptions start at $2 a month. Add to that, you get early access to this podcast with each episode's full reveal. Join today at valry's place.com. Hi, thanks for stopping by. This is Getting Naked the podcast. And usually what I'd like to open the podcast with is kind of like what I've been doing recently, filling you in on what's been happening. But I don't want to talk about me right now. I have a guest that I have been

dying to talk to in person. She, watching her TikToks, her Instagram and reading her book saved me in many, many ways when I felt I was drowning and gave me clarity in what, felt like I was drowning in confusion. And let me just introduce her. But before we get in today's episode, I just want to make a quick reminder to stay tuned for the full reveal. That's a special segment just for Valerie's Place members. If you want to be able to access the full reveal and get early access to this podcast,

just head over to Valerie's Place.com and sign up. Okay, let's get going. Dr. Romani dervassula. Did I say that? Dervassala. Stick with the Romini. Dr. Romney, Dervati. But I want to say your name correctly because I do mispronounce things all the time.

Dervasala. It's beautiful. You are a PhD, a professor, clinical psychologist, lecturer, your host of your own YouTube channel with more than 2 million subscribers, and one of the world's leading experts on narcissistic relationships. You have authored three books about narcissism, including the recent New York Times bestseller, It's Not You, Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People.

Let me just read the opening flap because it's, it's not always easy to tell when you're dealing with a narcissistic person. It's not. One day they draw you in with their charm and charisma. The next they gaslight you, wreck your self-esteem and leave you wondering, what should I have done differently? As Dr. Romney explains, and it's not you, the answer is absolutely nothing. Just as a tiger can't change it stripes. This makes me sad.

A narcissist will not stop manipulating. and invalidating you no matter how much you try to appease them. The first step toward healing from their toxic influence and to protect yourself from future harm is to accept that you are not to blame for their behavior. Dr. Romani, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, Valerie. I mean, I'm so happy to hear it. Be here.

You are, you're so clear and so concise and so unabashedly like this is the way it is. Like you don't make excuses for anybody, and I'm so used to making excuses for people. I make excuses for myself. I want to believe the best in people, which has probably kept me in situations much longer than I should have stayed. But I didn't know there was a term for it until just five, six years ago. That's about right. So why are we talking about narcissism so much now? I mean, I know what started it for me was the political atmosphere that was out there starting 10 years ago.

I'm like, how is this person just saying these things? And then to be able to like identify it in your personal life. Like, why do you think so many people are talking about narcissism? And you can write three books and probably more about it. I am working on another one, right? Oh, my God, yeah. Yep, got another two in the hopper. Wow.

Why are we talking about it more? It's funny. It's always been around. It's never not been around. In human history, there's always been narcissistic people. It's not a lot of people say it's in social media. Yeah, it's not. Well, don't we all have narcissism?

No, I'm going to push back on that. We do not. I feel like I can be pretty narcissistic. I care about the way I look. I care about the way people feel about me. Okay. I care about how I come off. I care about...

Those are not narcissistic. Caring about how you look, doesn't that make someone narcissistic? You said you've been through this. If that was the only thing you were encountering in your relationship is that this person cared how they looked, would we even be having this conversation? No.

No. No. So those things, I think a lot of people say, I'm selfish. I turn my phone off at night. I can be jealous. I can be petty. But this doesn't make you narcissistic. I think that I always use this example, Valerie. If I showed up at your house and said, hey, Valerie, here's a dozen eggs. You'd say, thanks for the eggs. You wouldn't say thanks for the cake. No. But those eggs with flour and sugar and baking soda and all the stuff that goes into a cake, sure, makes a cake. But one ingredient doesn't make a cake. When somebody gives us a bag of flour, we don't say thanks for the cake. We say thanks for the ingredient. The same thing with narcissism. It's not as simple as I can be a little selfish at times. I care how I look. I care what other people think about me, right? That is not narcissism. And I think this idea that there's this healthy version of narcissism is something I push back on a lot. The word is an unhealthy, it's an unhealthy set of traits. Is there healthy ego? Absolutely. Is there healthy

assertiveness? You need to have a healthy ego. You have to have ego. Ego is like our psychological skeleton. If we didn't have it, we'd just collapse. We would completely give in to everybody in our lives, which is slowly what happens in these relationships, by the way, to try to keep the peace. Like the eggshells start, you know, I'm walking on eggshells. I got to make sure I don't say anything that sets them off. Okay. But then, Valerie, you also get in trouble for not saying enough. Well, Valerie, why aren't you talking to me? Like, why do you just not talk about anything? Like, well, what are you? Too afraid to say anything. But if you said that, what is your you're afraid of being? Oh, my. We just had the whole conversation.

Okay. So, oh, God. I know I've read enough and I've seen enough to, I'm trying, I don't want to throw anybody that's been in my life under a bus. I just want to talk about experiences that have been challenging and made me question my self-worth, which right there I'll say made me question my self-worth and I get pushed back by, well, self-esteem is yourself. So I can't make you feel anything differently than you already feel, which it kind of is true. Because if I don't believe good things about myself, I'll believe the bad things that they say to me. I'm even going to count for you on that. We are completely going to unpack Valerie right now. Please. Self-esteem is kind of a, it's not really. I actually, from a psychologically precise point of view, we should be talking about self-appraisal, right?

Self-esteem is walking around saying, I'm good and I'm important. Are you? Maybe. But self-esteem. That's like some of my mantras in the morning. I'm good. I'm beautiful. I'm a good person.

Self appraisal is, I know what I'm good at. Like I, you know, it'd be like knowing like, you know what? I don't like going to dinner parties. I don't like making small talk. I'm really good at this. I'm really bad at that. I can't really tolerate this. My history's made this hard for me.

Self appraisal is also knowing that like, yeah, I know I shut down in these kinds of conversations. It's knowing ourselves clearly, right? Knowing ourselves is the key. It's not about valuing ourselves. When we know ourselves, I think that's almost built into that, right? That there is a value. Like, I know who I am. So when you're coming at me like this, when we know who we are Valerie and someone's

coming at us, like the way narcissistic people do, we can be a lot more steadfast. The only way a narcissistic relationship works is if we abandon ourselves. Yes. That's it. That I do know is true because in the ones that I have been involved in, I totally abandoned myself to a point where my family is like, where are you? We need you. please come back to us.

So I understand that. Not while you're going through it. You don't feel like you're abandoning yourself. You feel truly like you're just going to make this person happy. You know you can do it. I know I can make them happy. I know if I work hard enough. I can make them happy.

I know that I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to hurt them. So if they're telling me that I'm doing these things, I can make myself better. I can do it. I can do it. There's also something more sinister happening there to, Valerie, because when you're in it, listen, it's a human desire to attach to another person. We want to be in intimate relationships. We want to have close families. We want to have close friends. Well, I did. I'm not so much want that right now.

Girl, but that's a healthy want. That's a healthy thing. Yes, to connect to another human being. When we love somebody, even the complicated swamp of love with someone narcissistic, we also don't want to see the bad stuff. And the bad stuff is banging on the door, trying to be let in. And we're like with our, it's like a horror movie. Well, my intuition is going, Val, Val, Val, Val. come on, come on, come on, come on. And I'm like, no, no, no, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. Right. But by, I know that good person's coming back. But by appeasing them, you also get to maintain the fantasy and the illusion that they're a good person. You're knocking yourself out to make sure that they never get angry. I think every human being, in every human being is their true human self, right? We're all born good. Good is a tricky word. Okay, good is a tricky word. You're good and my good and everyone else is good. It's a little bit different, too. And I think it puts too much of like a value on it.

That's good. That's bad. Versus in every human being, I'd prefer to think of it is their true selves. And that true self can get buried by a lot of stuff, by trauma, by insecurity, even by mental illness. That can't be fully expressed. But when a person, if everyone was living in their true selves, we would not be in the mess of the world we are in right now. Right. But everyone seems to be like right now we're in a world where it seems like everyone's actively beating back on their demons. And this is what a world like that looks like when people don't work that stuff out. And that's really what a lot of the core of narcissism is this this insecurity, this fragility. They seem like they're not insecure. They're so like it's magnetizing to see someone that's sure of themselves. All right. So and what it is is narcissistic.

people are good at what we call expressed self-confidence, right? So they talk about, they communicate, I know that, I got that. I know myself so well. That's why they tend to get promoted on pretty fast tracks in many jobs, most narcissists, not all, because they can express, like, I got that, even when they don't got that. That's how they end up also in leadership. They want to be the leaders and they're able to communicate, no problem, no worries. And so they, blah, blah, blah, blah, they might climb up. Then they're the leader and they destroy the company, but that's a different story. We're watching it happen. Yeah. So, but the fact is they can come in.

I know that. That's no problem. No one, I'm the smartest guy in the room. Oh my God. It's a lot. And the rest of us, healthy people, self-appraisal say, I know this. And I don't know that. Right.

And in the Instagram, quick, quick world we're in, we don't like people that are holistic. We don't like people who say, I know this. I don't know that. We like people to say, I know everything. All right. I want that guy. Did you know that I'm back in the kitchen with a new cooking show? If you head to Valerysplace.com, not only will you be able to watch my podcast with the full reveal,

you'll also be able to watch my new cooking shows and Valerie's home cooking, and you're going to have a place to hang out and connect with the rest of this amazing community. Share stories, recipes, and more. So just go ahead, head to Valerie'splace.com to learn all about it. Oh, and use the promo code podcast at checkout for 10% off your first month. So I think since both of us have dealt with a narcissist, And even that kind of like makes me feel weird because I don't like to label people. I just know how some people make me feel and how some people like really creep me out.

But so what can we, let's explain exactly what from you who knows what the day you're damn well talking about. What exactly is a narcissist and what is an NPD? Okay. So even, and I, listen, I do agree the label narcissist feels dismissive. Because we're telling everybody you're a narcissist if they are, We should be focused on their behavior. Okay. Suppose under the right conditions we could, maybe, probably not, but shake some of that out.

But at the end of the day, a narcissist, if you will, is a person who has a narcissistic personality. That's why I attended, and you saw it in the book throughout narcissistic person, mother with a narcissistic personality. That's how I would shape it out, right? So a narcissistic person is a person with this personality. And this personality is comprised of traits and patterns that include low and variable empathy. Not a lack of empathy. We'll talk about in that a moment. It's low and variable empathy. Arrogance, entitlement, grandiosity, pathological selfishness. They can only center themselves. They're status-seeking. So whatever is going to make them look powerful to the world.

They are not able to tolerate things like frustration, disappointment. stress or anything that doesn't sort of prop up that grandiose sort of fantasy of them. There's a, there's a, they're driven very much by power, domination, control. They need to be the ones on top. How does that show up? Because this is where it matters. Those are the traits. But what affects this is how it shows up.

And how it shows up is manipulation, invalidation, dismissiveness, gaslighting, rage, silent treatment, competitiveness, making us small so they can feel big, betrayal, promising things that they never follow through on. It's how it shows up. Listen, nobody wants to be in a relationship with a selfish person, but it's how that selfishness shows up. If a person says, come hell or high water, I'm playing my golf game every single Saturday, not budging.

Some people say that's not for me, but if it wasn't happening with manipulation, gaslighting, all this other stuff, you'd be like, yeah, they play their golf. game every Saturday. I got the kids covered, but they'll show up on Sunday. They'll show up on Wednesday. They're not doubting my reality. One could say that no matter what, I'm not budging off the golf game, a little bit selfish. That's not the stuff that breaks relationships. That's not narcissistic. That's a little selfish, but it's okay. I mean, they've also. Right. But rarely does that happen, but you see what I'm saying? That's what narcissism is. You got me at how it shows up. Because when you're explaining what narcissists, what it is, I'm like, okay, I wouldn't say that this, I can only talk about my experience and being very careful not to.

I would never, ever think that that person had any of those traits. But the way that they showed up was, oh, boy, all of the things you said secondary to that. Because I want to do this podcast in a way that can help people not. fall in to this trap because I'm, I have a little joke that it's just like, okay, somebody's got to tell me every single different kind of narcissist there is out there because I need to know what to not fall into again. I even talk to my therapist. I said, please tell me what red flags are exactly so I can keep an eye up for them because

and plus I don't want to be a red flag. I want to be understanding. I actually was at a point where I was being told so much that I was narcissistic, I was selfish. I was all of these things. I'm like, and that I was hurting them. And I was like, well, I don't want to be hurting people. I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to do all these things. Please, God, tell me. And I'm like, at a certain point, I said, you have, I don't understand why you're with me. Like, I can't do anything right. Please. I mean, I did, and then I heard myself saying that. I'm like, that's what narcissists say. Okay. Let me.

So I'm like, oh, I'm a narcissist. I have to fix it. Let me push back on you. When you ask that question because this is an interesting conundrum for people who are in relationships with narcissists, especially the kind you're talking with some more vulnerable narcissism. When you say to someone, I don't, with all your complaints about me, I don't understand why you're in this relationship with me. What do they respond? If I could just, if I would stop doing that. So if you stop, so. If I stopped being selfish, if I stopped choosing my son over, if I stopped choosing certain things and paid more attention if I if I but what they're basically saying is I'm staying with you Valerie because I there's some good stuff in there but you're not doing the right

stuff. Correct. That's what you were told. Okay so right again you see what a manipulation that is you will be lovable if you do the things I'm telling you to do. That's the twist. So what some narcissistic people will do when you really say like you're miserable. You have now listed. I'm making so One happens. Yes. You hate about being in this relationship, right? And even in your heart, you know, not all of them are going to be changed. It's interesting.

You even said choosing a son. We see this all the time in narcissistic relationships. You would think that a, having a child, like that would be, again, the low empathy, right? The not understanding that that's a different kind of a relationship. Narcissistic people, especially when we're in like, for example, when people later in life. They behave like they, and we'll come back. Let's put a pin in that empathy piece because it's really important. So what some narcissistic people will say to sort of play it being saint is, I just love you.

I love you. I love you. I love you, you love you, you feel how great I am. Okay. Look how great I am that I can love someone as damaged and as messed up as you. Okay. So now, because we're in, until you know what this is, right, now you can, it's almost like being a boxer. You're like, as far as I'm concerned, they're right. I am damaged and I am selfish and I am doing. So everything they're telling me. know that? How does he know, or how did they? She, I don't know who the hell it is. How does a person know this? Because all this time you thought you were building up intimacy by opening up to them. That was an incredibly vulnerable. You were basically filling an armory with weapons that they were going to use against you. That's the painful part of this is that we look back and say, I gave, I gave them, I gave them all the weapons. Yeah. But you weren't giving them weapons. You were doing what I thought I was developing a relationship. She is closeness and sharing.

As a relationship goes on, you get to about this much you can share. What a nice day. The sky is more blue than yesterday. There is a cat in the street. The roses are red. That's all you got, but then they get mad because you ain't given them anything to work with. So they're going to bait and they're going to poke and they're going to push until you give them even a tiny seat of something for them to use to bash you over the head. That's the anatomy of a narcissistic relationship.

So how do you prevent that? And now I'm at a point where if there's any sign of, and I hate this word because it's been overused, love bombing, because there is a point where like getting love notes or being spoken beautifully to and telling, like there's a point of letting someone know how you feel about them and then there's the love bombing and the like it moving fast. Like how do you differentiate so that you can feel. feel good by developing a relationship with someone, but then keep your cat senses up to make sure that

you're not being love bombed. It's really tricky, Valerie, because it's interesting. In the United Kingdom, now even the tactic of love bombing is being absorbed into some of their legislation in terms of how we talk about the arc of these relationships. So as much as the word feels trivial, it's actually being understood. Like it has meaning to people, like this too muchness, now domestic violence, everyone's understanding that this is the beginning of an arc. Now, what's tricky is, when does it stop being idealization and seduction? And when does it start becoming the front end of an abusive dynamic, right? And that's hard to know. Or when does it become the front end of an actual relationship that will go somewhere? Okay, so let me start here. Like how do I... Idealization is not a

place for a relationship to start. And to all you romantics out there, suck it. Because I'm going to tell you right now, it is just not... You don't want to be idealized. You don't. Well, you don't, you don't I truly don't because no one's perfect. I want you to see all of me because now I know you're seeing all of me. And the fact is when you put someone on a pedestal, it's just a higher place to fall down from. Okay, so we don't, but this is the nonsense we've been told since we were little kids in fairy tales. It's the nonsense to get. All the romance novels I read.

Romance novels in rom-coms, even in how sort of famous people's love stories are shared. Like, on our third date, we went to Africa. What are you talking about? You should be going to Starbucks. Not Africa, unless you live in Africa, on your third date. Right. You know, so it's these larger-than-life stories that get normalized. Like, oh, they showed up with a car full of 500 dozen roses.

That's nuts. That's a waste of money. What are you trying to hide? You know, that's what we should be. I hate to say it. I know it sounds unromantic. But what's happening is... No, but there's a line there, and I'm just trying to figure what that line is.

Love bombing is a... It starts fueling a dynamic, which is really important to understanding narcissistic relationships called cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is the tension we feel in our body when things aren't adding up. And we want them to add up. We want them to add up. We want the love notes to be real. We want the good morning, babe, good morning, my princess, how is my queen? And all that nonsense that people get sent, like you said, not the girl you want to spend Valentine's Day with. Okay. So all that stuff is coming at you. Listen, and many of us is still this, so many people didn't have healthy childhoods.

No, and I wasn't modeled what love is by my parents. So not wanting that sort of what a lot of people have said to me, and I've talked to thousands of people who've been through these relationships. They'll say, they wouldn't even call their childhood traumatic, but they'll say it was that. I didn't get a good model of it. It wasn't just sort of the most loving, warm, early environment. and they said, I always doubted if someone liked me. So when someone came along and loved bombed, it takes away the doubt and there's nothing more seductive. It feels so good. It's nothing more seductive than having the doubt lifted.

This person's texting me all the time. I'm not waiting four days for a callback. We're already planning the next day. We're having a 36-hour first date. Not supposed to have a 36-hour first day. Already boundaries and limits are getting eroded. And so all these things are happening. And when you twist them to the unhealthy side, it's hard to think of it. that way, but that cognitive dissonance means icky things are starting to happen. Weird stuff with the cell phone. Showing up, maybe not in showing up late, making a little dig at you that doesn't even feel like a dig, but really they're trying to say you're incompetent, but you don't put it that way. And they turn it like, oh, come on, you know, I'm just kidding. Like, you're the best.

Why did you have to say that other thing? Then why did you, yeah. Why did you have to poison the well? Why? Because it's a, it's a slow step up into indoctrinations. How cult leaders work. slowly taking steps forward to see how far they can push. Right? And when you don't walk away from that dig, and if you did Valerie, you know what your friends will say? Valerie, come on. They just made a passing comment.

Like, girl, you want a date? Why are you walking away? So even the world colludes. So to your question on how do we prevent this, I'm not certain we can. Because I can say all of this. And somebody who's maybe not been through this. I must say, sadly, the only way I've found to teach this is for people to go through it. Yes.

And there's the anointed and the unenointed and sometimes multiple times. I really thought, I got this. Until you saw the different kinds. Until you saw a different kind of narcissism. And the different kinds matter because there are two big things people forget. Can you go through the different kinds? Number one, narcissism is on a continuum. From mild to severe.

Why does this matter? Because a person in a mild narcissistic relationship is dealing with an overgrown adolescent douche who complains about emptying the dishwasher and wears cargo shorts in the dead of winter and plays video games when you're running around after four kids. That's your mild narcissist. But you know what? They're not heavily manipulative. They're not even gaslighting you.

It's like, what do you want? You sound lazy. But there's a lack of awareness. There's a lack of empathy. There is a, you know, you're running. And you ask him to empty the trash. Like, God, you know, it's such a big deal. It's such a, and so people in those relationships will feel like, is this abusive? Is this not?

And they'll say, I don't want to bring it up because we're going to have another argument. If you're holding back on bringing stuff up, something's wrong. So that's what we see at the milder end. We see a tremendous selfishness. It's the personal call, keep you on the phone for three hours. But when you call them, they will not take your calls. That's what happens at the mild end. And at the severe end, now we're talking about stuff that's downright scary.

We're talking about isolation, exploitation, maybe even a ramp up to violence, financial abuse. Isolation is insidious. It starts, it's not, don't see your family. It's when you are with your family, they'll be constantly texting and constantly, and starting an argument through texts and calling. And I'm like, I can't talk right now. So now I'm at a point where I better not go see them because this makes that. Or you're with your family, Valerie, and you're no longer present with your family because you're completely upset and distracted by this. The other thing is like, Valerie, these friends of yours are like, I don't know, like,

it just feels like she's dissing you all the time. Do you think she's competitive with you? Poisoning the well. Yes. They don't seem very, your family doesn't seem very happy for you. Right, right. Your family doesn't seem happy for you. You're like, your family doesn't really respect me.

Your friends don't respect me. Your friends aren't interested in me. Those are all, so they're not coming out, and they're not locking you in a room. No. They're at the severe end that can happen. What is, what they're doing is, and this is where we get to the moderate end, these little things that feel like your friends were, your friends all were talking amongst themselves,

and nobody asked me about my stuff, right? Well, maybe you shouldn't have been at a girl's night, you know, weirdo. Like, why did you even come? And they're not interested in you. Or I haven't seen this friend at 15 years. And now all of a sudden you think they're going to want to like sort of hear a, no, they'll do a little of it. But so it's, but now you're in the defense mode.

And that's where the narcissist wants you. Because when you're in defense mode, it's better for them. They're built for a fight. Now going to the different types, right? They're built for a fight. Yeah, what can come back to that. This is the problem. We're going to put a pin on.

We have a lot of pants on the table. Okay. So different types. The classical narcissist, Valerie, is the grandiose narcissist. This is the arrogant, preening, attractive, superficial, extroverted, life of the party, charming, charismatic. I want them to be interested in me, right? I think immaturity can sometimes play a role in us being attracted to the grandiose

narcissist, but even as people get older, so they're the life of the party. They're picking up the check for everyone. They can be incredibly generous, especially in early days. Now, that can turn, and they'll use that generosity against you. You're a gold digger. You just wanted me for my money, all that nonsense. But they come in with a really strong game, and so a lot of people say, oh, that's just kind of that whole swagger thing. I could see that a mile away. That takes us to what you were talking about, which is vulnerable narcissism. Vulnerable narcissism is an entirely different presentation. It's victimized, sullen, aggrieved, disenfranchised in some ways, angry at the world, angry at everything, blame shifting. Why doesn't anyone see how great I am?

Why don't you spend more time? You're taking advantage of me. It's a lot of everything's a threat. They're very thin-skinned. Things tend not to go their way. They're not successful, like the grandiose narcissists. The vulnerable narcissists often seem like they're down on their luck. And we buy into that story. Like, you're so smart. Like, things should have gone your way. When things don't go someone's way 20 times, I don't know. Maybe that's been not having game or just not, maybe more than anything, it's not getting

along with other people. Vulnerable, narcissistic people, because they don't have the charm and the swagger, because that's how grandiose narcissistic people can kind of warm their way out or sell a story better than what they really are. What if they're charming and vulnerable? That's not unusual. And in fact, a lot of the research and theory on narcissism holds that under every grandiose narcissist is a vulnerable one. And under every vulnerable one is a grandiose one.

Remember those toys called Weebles. People's wobble, but they can't fall down. I always say that either you're like, the grandiose has like the vulnerable Weble bottom or the vulnerable has the... Okay. Because I'm like, I've got to keep my eye out. So for people that want to keep their eye out, there's just like it can all weave into each. It's not, I've used so many memes on narcissism and stuff like, oh, okay, so I'll look out for this person. And if this person's not that person, but then, oh, wow, but they, we just need to.

So that's the problem. You're looking, it's the, and here's where you made a point earlier, do we, how do we start paying attention to how we feel here, right? Once you've been to this. That's the most important thing. That's the most important thing. How do you feel around them? And the bottom line is, and I know this is going to seem like a heavy word. After the love bombing starts.

So the lot. And after the love bombing stops, and remember, sometimes Valerie, the love bombing doesn't completely stop. When the narcissistic person senses that they're losing ground, all of a sudden flowers show up. All of a sudden, a weekend is planned. All of a sudden, it's breakfast in bed. You see, so they interspers it, that cognitive dissonance. They can see when they're losing you. They can see when they're losing you.

And they don't like that. And it depends on the relationship. There's a variety of reasons. Ultimately, it's a loss of control. It's a loss of power. But they don't like it. And either you might see a ramp up of anger because they're, losing control, but then they'll turn around and also start putting on that charm offensive.

So, oh, God, I could talk to you forever because it's like, I just feel, I feel like I'm healing right here with you while I'm talking to you. But you do have a video on your YouTube channel that happens to make narcissists absolutely furious. And what makes them furious is when we slip out of their control. Correct. And I experienced this. And I went through literally a year of bombarding, like, defecating on my character, if you will, publicly.

And I thought, but I didn't, I kept my boundaries up. I kept the no contact because I wasn't going to fall into it. But I, boy, it takes a long time for them to like decide not to attack you any long. A year's a long time to be attacked. And a year is about right. And I tell people to at least plan on a year three to five isn't unusual. Are you kidding? Don't they ever get tired?

The only reason... And by the way, do they ever feel love for you? Love's a tricky word. Love's a very tricky word, right? Because when you break love down, you know, what is love? Love is... It's an compassion, it's closeness, it's behavior, its intimacy. But above all else, it's safety.

When somebody loves us, we can fully show up as ourselves. Mistakes and all, problems in all, and we don't feel judged. We don't feel like it's being weaponized. We don't feel like, oh boy, that's going to come back and bite me. Not the way you consider love. They think they did, and this is the mistake people make. They keep getting into the argument with the narcissist. You never loved me.

The narcissist person is going to say, till they die, I loved you. You know, you're such a cold heart of what-you-watt that you couldn't see that I love. And you know what? now you're arguing about... I've been told that I will never be loved the way they loved me. Oh, wait. That is, again, we're actually doing a workshop in a few days. Exactly.

Where are you doing this workshop? It's a virtual workshop. Oh, I don't know. You should go to the workshop yourself. It's a virtual and you can go anonymously. But it's a... I have literally a whole set of phrases that narcissistic people say, like, no one's ever going to love you the way I do.

This is a once-in-a-lifetime love story. it's never going to feel like this again. I mean, it's a play. But if somebody says those things, do you run? Run, run, run. Oh, I wish. Yes. Well, eventually I did.

But it would have been hard to hear that when you were going through it. This is what I want you to show yourself. My son, my brothers, my girlfriends were like, what are you doing? The cocktail. I don't understand. But the cocktail of dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin. I literally once said, yes, that cocktail. It's not.

That cocktail is a bad one. This feels like, this feels like a trauma bond. Are we trauma bonding? Yeah, you are. And I was like, I think I'm growing because I can actually say that to someone. And it wasn't like less than 24 hours that they told me they were trauma bonded to me. So I guess I gave them that idea. You know what?

We need to go to the full reveal. But I'm not going to let this brilliant woman go. She knows her shit. And if you would like to join the full reveal, go to Valorysplace.com and become a member. And you can hear what we're about to talk about. We're going to talk about healing. Thank you for listening to Getting Naked the podcast. If you want to hear the full reveal from today's episode,

head over to Valerie's Place.com and sign up. For $2 per month, you'll get the full reveal and early access to every episode of the podcast. Use the promo code podcast at checkout for 10% off your first month. I'll see you next week.