Getting Naked: The Podcast - The Mid-Life Unraveling

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Valerie chats with her former therapist Melissa Brohner-Schneider, about how she assisted Val in having a better understanding of life, acceptance and managing relationships.

Hi, I'm Valerie Bertnelli, and welcome to Getting Naked the podcast. Today, my guest is a special woman. I've known her for a very long time. She's my former therapist and life coach, Melissa Broner-Snyder. She has helped me through so much, and I hope that she can help you through a lot. We're going to talk about life, my life, topics that I think will probably relate to your life. And that's the point. I get your questions.

I have my own, so let's get to it. This podcast is a little mission for me to basically help people. I've learned a lot through these years, and I don't want to hoard all this information, because I think when you learn something that heals you, I think it's much safer and giving to share it. And so I'm trying to share all of that. I want you guys to feel less alone. I want you to feel your lives wholly and fully and be able to check in with yourselves and be able to get curious with your emotions and your feelings, what are they trying to tell you.

And these are all things that I've learned that have given me hope that this life is really, it means something. And it doesn't have to always be so hard. So I'm hoping that I can give you some tools for this podcast, and I want you to know that we're here for each other. This is a connection that I want to have with all of you, and you're a part of this as well, that we make ourselves available so that you can call in and that you can ask questions. And I have somebody here today that I'm going to get to in a minute because first I want to start off with a really inspirational quote. But this is a very special person to me that's here with us today. From a poet Andrea Gibson, that gorgeous, lovely, amazing woman, God rest her soul.

It's called Wellness Check. And it says, in any moment, on any given day, I can measure. my wellness by this question. Is my attention on loving or is my attention on who isn't loving me? Woo-hoo! That's a good one because I think a lot of us go through that and I'm now going to introduce you to someone that's very special to me, Melissa Broner Schneider. Can I say that you started off as my therapist? Yes. Okay. I went to Melissa a long time ago because I was having challenges in my life and I've been to see you singularly. I've been to see you with couples. I've been to see you as a family. Wolfie and Ed and I went to see you and your husband, who is also a therapist at the same time, which is really great to get the male and the female perspective. But you started off as my therapist. And now it's kind of become through 12, 13, 14 years, however long we've known each other, that I'll just come once in and go, you know what? I think I need an appointment. I need to check in and I need to just see if I'm on the path that I can continue. to make positive changes in my life. Well, first of all, let me just say hello to Melissa. Hi.

Hi, Val. So you could say hi to her too. I'm so honored to be here. You had a podcast that I loved. I did. Yes. I did. Way back. It was called the other F word, conversations about failure. And it was an incredible journey of many different conversations, reframing failure, not to be something to be feared or not such a negative stigma, but more necessary, a necessary part of life and growth. Failure is how we grow in life. Absolutely. And yet it's the other F word because it's the thing that, you know, is a bad word.

Yeah. Right. Right. And so many people we spoke to were, had beautiful, rich stories about how they push through it. because we all need to learn how to get through this thing we call life. Yeah. And if it all goes perfectly, we're not going to learn anything. And that never happens, actually.

There's no perfect, perfectly imperfect. Yes, yes. Oh, speaking of which, yes. Oh, yes. Look at that. It's perfectly imperfect. It is. You are throughout this book because I talk about my therapy sessions.

I also had therapy sessions with a specialist in EMDR, but you have a, have been a touchstone for me through a lot of things, and I'm just going to get right into it that I had a traumatic experience when I was 11 years old that I didn't want to face. I thought, ah, I'm fine. I am over it. I'm just moving on with my life. And you saw that it was all of the other things that I came to you with that I wanted to change about my life really couldn't be changed dramatically unless I first acknowledged something. I'm taking this now, saying this. I did not realize it then. And you would gently nudge me, not even push me, but as I would be able to say, when I was 11, I was sexually abused, just saying it the first time was really hard for me.

Really hard. And I remember saying it and going, okay, now I'm going to heal, right? Now that I said it out loud, I can just heal from this. Ten years later, here I am writing a book. And finally, like, letting out that secret that held so much shame for me for so long. So long. So long. And there's something about readiness. You know, you have to be ready in order to go deep and go into the pain.

And you were hesitant, and then you got ready, and then it got really scary. And I knew that. And I would never. I would never. I was not for a long time. You were like, okay, I said it. Bye. Bye.

And I was like, wait, wait, wait, come back, come back. But I knew that you had to be ready to do that deeper work. It was a big deal for you just to share that with me. And I didn't push. I just, as you say, I nudged. We worked to it. I knew you would be back because you're so committed to your own growth. And you're not afraid to go deeper.

It is terrifying, right? But there's... I feel like I'm so afraid and I do it anyway. It's like that big field of fear and do it anyway. That's right. One of my favorite quotes from a guest on my podcast, Tony Hale, the actor, Tony Hale, he said, do it afraid. Yeah. Right?

And I love that because if we wait to do the thing until we're not afraid, well, we're not. It's... No, it's never going to happen. Right. I mean, procrastination is my middle name, and it's like I know how to procrastinate. And there comes a certain point where you just can't procrastinate any longer because that shame can hold you hostage. Right. And I felt like I got to a point where then not only was I holding myself hostage, but then it was also, you know, it could be used as a tool to hurt me in anger.

Anybody that I was ever vulnerable with and was able to, you know, let them know my deepest, darkest fears, they could then use that. against me unless and until I was able to actually work through those deepest darkest fears and go, oh, they can be my friends too because they kept me safe. Right. That's right. So you don't have to be afraid of, if you take anything from this podcast today, I would hope that you can take that the more boldly and courageously that we look into our fears and our shames and our self-loathing, the more we can look at that, the more we give ourselves a gift of compassion. And the curiosity is what will save us. Really. I mean, as children are always to stop asking so many questions. But now it's like, ask those questions.

Ask the questions. Yeah. Right. And then you realize it's not so scary when you take that little peak, right? Or you do it courageously and you get through it. It takes, you know, you have to just give yourself the self-compassion. Yes. You've tried. You've tried. You've me on to, you've always, because I know I'm so hard on myself. You have said it a million times. My son tells me all the time. And I really think I'm finally at a point where the being hard on myself has been not destructive. And now it's an adventure to see how I can improve. And I would encourage anybody out there to take the self-destruction out of it and replace it with curiosity and compassion. Right, right. And you're so compassionate.

You were one of the most compassionate people I've ever met for everyone else, for the world, right? It was so hard for you to turn it inward, probably because of the shame. Yeah. Right? And the self-doubt and all the stuff that you learned along the way that kept you safe in a way. Yeah. And it did. And I think that's the thing that I know that I've forgotten and that when people are doing their best to be their best selves just as they are, that they forget.

that those, I mean, there's plenty of terms for it, your shadow work, your, your, you know, shame self, your self-loat, all the things that we think are icky parts about ourselves, those are the parts that protected us when we couldn't be protected by people that were in charge of protecting us, or people that, you know, should have treated us better, or people that, um, we're the ones, we're, we're the proprietors of this, and we're the ones that protect us. And through that, we're the ones that then have choices about who we hang out with as well. I think another important piece for you and for so many of us is when you're little and you have a trauma that's more of a complex trauma. It's enduring. It's repetitive. It's, you know,

relational. And you don't have any adults around you to talk you through it, right? Because And you don't feel safe with any adults to actually bring it up. That's right. So you keep it inside because you don't want anyone to be upset. Right? So you do it to protect your family or to protect others and maybe to protect yourself. Right. But then you don't learn what's going on internally, right?

All these complex feelings. They keep squashing down because they don't feel good. They don't feel good. Uncomfortable. No. So we learn to numb out. We learn to distract. We love food.

Drug. Alcohol. Shopping. sex, whatever it may be. All the good things that in the moment feel like this is working until it's really not. And that's, I think, something you came to because you tried everything. Sure did. Food, drugs, alcohol, sex.

Shopping. Oh, my God. Yes, I've tried it all. And different therapies and different spiritual advisors and experiences and relationships until you realize I have to get to the core. I was just really avoiding the main thing that I really needed to get to just go, okay, yeah, this happened. It sucked. How did it shape me? That's the important question. And how can I reshape myself now? Or, not even reshape myself, but just learn to live with the shape that it took so that I can be comfortable in that shape and know that that's not bad.

And then you can get naked and really see that shape, right? That's what you've been doing. that's that metaphor and actually also really what was going on, you know, learning to love yourself in your shape. Yes. So in, and in the book, I write, and I'm going to give you a copy because I can't believe I'm giving you a copy yet. Thank you. So I'm promising you a copy. I got a little sneak. Yeah. Okay. That fear that we feel, I write a little bit about it. Now, does it, does it lessen the older we get? Does it, I mean, for me, I feel like it's kind of alchemized to something else. Like, it's actually like, oh, I'm afraid of this. Am I?

Really? Let's see, let's find out what this is about. Or I'm also like, oh, God, I just don't want to deal with this fear right now. So how do you think it changes as we age, or is it just, how does it change within our own personalities? Oh, so many good questions. I mean, I think it's, there's something that happens in midlife, right? Brené Brown talks about the midlife unraveling. It's not a crisis because it lasts longer.

Yeah. And the unraveling is getting rid of the parts of yourself that were the people pleasing or the fear, fear of upsetting people, fear of, you know, vulnerability, fear of failure. And in midlife, there's unraveling and then you have a choice. You can stay small and, you know, use all those coping mechanisms, or you can unravel it and get the sense of courage and work through the fear, right? So that is a choice. Two uncomfortable things.

You're faced with uncomfortable choices because unraveling it's going to be uncomfortable, but continuing to sit in it for the rest of your life just feels like an uncomfortableness that we already know. And it's like, okay, I know that one. That's right. That one. It sucks. Well, it does.

It's uncomfortable a different way. Right. To possibly ease it, and it does ease. Well, and you can't grow without discomfort. True. You cannot. We just have to learn to sit in the discomfort. We are used to just like quickly, quickly move through it.

I don't want to feel this, right? Right. I spent a lot of my life with blinders on paying attention because I don't want to pay attention. I don't want to see. I don't want to know. Yeah. And fear can, you know, be so overpowering. And it's hard to believe that you can.

get through it. I think something you're doing so beautifully is creating community. And I think we need community. We are wired for connection. Yes. Right. So we need community in order to get through, in order to push through fear, in order to hear other people's stories and realize you're not alone. Right. We're so isolated, especially since COVID. Right. And so knowing you have a community who can guide you through fear or, you know, who knows how to do it and you can, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Right. Right.

And it's just talking about things enough so that it makes it common. So that you don't, like being able to talk about being abused. Now, it doesn't hold the same fear, this old shame, the old shame any longer. Because it's like, it's an experience that happened that sucked. And I talked about it. And then it reshapes you and then you just figure out how to, you know. So by having community and by sharing stories, yeah, you just don't feel as alone. And I think it does take away the fear of having to live this life.

It's scary being a human being. Terrifying. It's really scary. But to remember that we're all connected and we're all here to have a community. And part of being human is being messy, being uncertain, being afraid. Right? And asking for help can be really hard. I think personally as a therapist, COVID took away the stigma of getting help because everyone was going, it was a universal crisis. Right. And so it became really, you know, normal to get help. And we were able to do it virtually. And so it changed that kind of isolation and shame about reaching out and getting help. Why did that ever happen? Like it's shameful to talk about.

our mental health. It's shameful to talk about needing help and needing, like, you know, an extra, you know, something to lean on, someone, a good shoulder to cry on. I mean, why is that shameful? That's a, that's a big one. I mean, I think there's a lot of pressure to be perfect, right? So there's shame about that. I think there's a lot of what we call multi-generational transmission of trauma. Oh, wow. So trauma that happens in generations of families that is never healed gets handed down, right? And so... They say that. And it like, it, it confuses me, although I can only go by, you know, my parents who modeled love for me. It was messed up. So even though I love my parents, love them dearly, God rest their souls.

But they messed up in giving me a model of what intimate love is. Right, because they didn't model communication. They didn't model problem solving. They didn't model sitting in the discomfort rupture and repair. No. They didn't model that. But if we think about multigenerational transmission of trauma, I know you write about in your book, your mom lost her mom at a young age, right? And then your mom lost a baby.

Mm-hmm. And then you were born in while she was grieving, right? And she didn't have trauma support. No, she didn't know what to do with her grief. She didn't. So she swallowed it. Yeah. And she wanted to be okay.

And don't worry about mama, right? Everything's okay. But so, so there's shame that just gets learned. Like just don't ask for anything. Don't be needy. Right, right. You can do it all on your own. You don't need help.

But you know what? we all do need help, and there's nothing wrong with needing help. No. And I think the more help we get, it's, again, information makes us smarter, makes us more caring, makes us understand. Knowledge is power. It's true. It is true.

Yeah. All right, let's take some questions from our audience, because I'm excited for you to, because these are questions, some of these questions, I don't know how to answer. So I definitely need your help. Okay, let's hear it. We start with Stephen. My question is simple. Why are we all so hung up on being naked?

Most of us are modest due to our upbringing. I agree, Stephen. As I have gotten older, I don't think about it much anymore, being alone by myself. We all can be comfortable in our own skin. Hollywood perfect body image is also a big contributing factor. Yeah. Hope this doesn't embarrass the screener too much. No, I'm the screener.

Hi. Withdrawing, avoiding, or unable to make connections. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Body image, you deal with younger patients as well, right? Teenagers and young adults.

I know that I didn't have any body image. I didn't even care what my body was until I was around 12, 11, 12, 13 years old when I started to get comments that would have gone, that's weird, you know. So you, what is this thing with body image that can stifle us from being a full, like, well-rounded, human being. Like, why does body image bring us shame? I mean, I think we're surrounded by images of what is supposed to be a perfect looking human. And if you're not, then you're flawed. Right. And young women are constantly striving to look a certain way, even if they can't naturally ever look like that. And we all try to model, you know, love yourself and your body's beautiful and beauty on the inside. And you're strong right there's a newer idea for women and and and men which is men have had this

understanding but for women is strong is the the new skinny right to value strength right inner strength right physical strength i know that that's what i'm striving for now i want to know how how far i can walk how like i'm literally now starting some upper body um strength work working out because I want to be able to lift my suitcase to the open-head bin. It's nothing about wanting my arms to be thinner or whatever. I'm there's still going to be, you know, I mean, I'm 65 years old. It's flabby skin, but I want them to be stronger so I can lift my suitcase overhead. So anything that I want to do now, it's because I want my hearts and my lungs and my knees to get me up the stairs and I want I want to be able to walk longer distances when I

travel because I love to travel. So, and I want to be able to lift my suitcase up because I love to travel. You want to function. I want your body to work in this body, right. So why, how do we give that gift to the younger generation that you just want your body to function well? And the way it looks is the way it's supposed to look on you. I mean, I think it starts with modeling and I think it starts with conversations. And we can't deny that there's a lot of pressure out there to look a certain way. So if we just shut it down and say, oh, you're beautiful the way you are. I love your body.

That's dismissing an experience, right, that someone's having, which is, but I am not happy with how I look, right? So we have to be really empathic. Yeah, because one of the worst things you can do is deny somebody's emotional experience. That's right. That's right. It really sucks to have your,

I mean, I've had it done to me all the time. It's like denying my actual lived emotional experience. So it's when you just go, oh, but you're beautiful, that's negating somebody's emotional experience, as opposed to digging into it. That's right. And being curious, right? Well, what does it feel like in your body?

You know, where are you not comfortable? Where is it uncomfortable? Right. Yeah. Why do you think that's going on for you? Who told you what, when? Yeah. You know, where did you learn that?

Because you couldn't have told it yourself. Did you learn it through a magazine because you wanted to look something like this person? Right. Yeah. And when you start to get curious about these things, you start to realize like, oh, that's where it came from. But my body works really well. I mean, I can jog down to the mailbox, pick up my mail, or I can take my dog out for a one-mile walk and it's great. So.

Right, right. Giving ourselves the. And teaching that wisdom to the younger generations, right? We are learning that now. But wouldn't that have been great to know that when we were teenagers. Yep. Right. And you were a teenager in the world of looking a certain way and acting a certain way.

Oh, my goodness. That's so unique. It's just, yeah, very bizarre to, I mean, my very, very first job was because I fit the clothes for a J.C. Penny's commercial. Right. And it's crazy to me because then it started to become like my least favorite thing to do is do wardrobe fittings. Now I love doing them because I get, you know, new clothes that I get to wear. Yeah. Hi, welcome to Valerie's Place. Come on in.

I like to think that while this is my house, Valerie's Place is our home. It's a destination hub. We can share lifestyle, cooking, fashion. What I really want to do is share stories. I want to build this place together with all of you. You can sign up today, go to Valerie's Place.com. Find out which tier you want. They start at $2.

The first week is free, and then come on in. It is a metaphor. Getting naked is a great metaphor for getting naked with our emotional life as well. Right. With our emotional and getting naked. But what is the hang up with, like, actual physical bodies? They're funny-looking.

They are funny-looking. And, you know, if there are rolls or cellulite or sex, Ragginess or wrinkles, right? It feels like we're flawed. Right. And, but this is like, that's like not a flaw. It's just, it's like, it's years of gravity. Right. It's supposed to happen. It's supposed to happen. Right. And if we can laugh about it, you know, and try to realize we are imperfect. We are messy. And start embracing that. Like, what, what is it about you that you think makes you imperfect, which actually makes you special? Mm-hmm. That's right. Because. we're looking for, we are all so similar, but we are all very different too because we all have very different life experiences. Even if we've had life experiences that are similar, because I know I'm not the only little girl at 11 that was sexually assaulted, but I do know that it shaped a life experience that I have. Do you know, because I know that you saw in me something that

read to you that I had had a traumatic experience like that. Are there specific things that you see in people that come into your office that you can think, I wonder if they've been sexually assaulted? Like, are there certain things, I know there's people pleasing and, you know, trying to make things, trying to make people happy. Are there other facets that someone out there might be going, oh, I do that too? And I wonder if I could maybe change that. I mean, I think it's a great question, because everyone's different, right? So there are no universal signs that would make my job easier. Sometimes there are holes in the stories of your childhood and an avoidance of going back and trying

to uncover that and maybe a real discomfort. Like, it doesn't matter. I don't want to talk about that. Right? Oh, I did that a lot. Right? And just, you know, as a therapist knowing trauma work, you have to go slow. So just paying attention to that. Sometimes if, you know, people have been sexually abused, they learn to disconnect from their body, right? So not living in their body or shielding, not wanting their body to look sexual. So that's where, you know, gaining weight or dressing, you know, differently, not wanting to be provocative.

And you can also go the opposite direction as well. Absolutely. It's interesting as everyone experiences it differently. That's right. You can then kind of try to deal with your trauma by being more empowered sexually and, you know, taking back the control in that way. Right. And so any kind of behavior that can be over-sexualized or numbing out, right? So any time there's drug use.

alcohol use, the numbing behaviors, right? That's definitely trauma. When I see somebody, and I know we've talked about this, and I know that I could be much more compassionate with what Ed was going through, his drug abuse and alcohol abuse

and the trauma that he had so much that I just, I wonder if he was still alive I could be much more compassionate and much more, I don't know, as helpful as the right word, but I wouldn't be so judgy, McJudger anymore. Yeah. Because I get it now. I think that's really important, right? Because everybody's trauma is different, right?

It's not always sexual. It's, right? So if someone's using, has a problem with drugs, we don't know what their trauma was, but to be curious about it, to make space to listen and be compassionate and be compassionate, right? just create that safety in a relationship to say, tell me what that was like and no judgment. Right. Right. And to... And then there's also the other thing where you also have to keep yourself and yourself safe, depending on what the alcohol, I mean, we're getting into really scary territory. You know, what that... I know that, you know, some people are in scary situations. So the first,

the first thing to do is create your boundaries and get help. Absolutely. Absolutely. That is the most important safety. Right? And again, knowing you're not alone. Right. Right. How to get to safety, who to call. That's the most, that's the biggest step. Yeah. Karen Johnston, she would like to talk about this topic. Married 40 plus years, but as you have aged with your spouse, who still, you still love, you're very different due to how aging has changed you and your interests and abilities are not the same. how do you have a 40-plus year marriage and like if you're growing apart, are you growing apart, and Karen doesn't really talk about this, are you growing apart emotionally or are you just

growing apart because you're growing apart because you're interested? If your interests are different, that's easy. You go do what interests you, you know, find something that interests you. If you love to travel, go on solo trips or go with your girlfriend if he doesn't want to travel and vice versa. I know a couple that he goes off. off on solo trips all the time, solo hiking all the time. And he loves it. His wife doesn't want to do it. She loves him. He loves her. And they're fine doing it that way. I think that's super healthy.

If you have different interests, it's okay to do them alone. You don't have to do them with each other all the time. Yeah. It's called healthy separation. Yeah. But you have to talk about it. I think communication is key, whether you're together 40 years or one. I think people along the way stop communicating or don't know how to communicate when you start changing and you were so compatible when you were young and now you're not? Yeah, you can't just book a trip and not tell them you're going to book a trip. You've got to have to say, I was thinking of going to Nepal for three weeks and, you know, what are you doing?

Are you okay with me doing that? Yeah, that's communication. Right. And it's healthy to have other, you know, travel partners, right, friendships. Well, it's safer too. Yes. I mean, right, we're not all in college going backpacking through Europe anymore. That would be fun. Although that would be fun. It would be super fun. Yeah. What happens if they are more complicated for health reasons? Well, of course I'm a little biased,

but I would say couples therapy, right? And again, it's super helpful. It's super helpful. Right. You know. Yeah, because you have a safe place to talk about things that may be uncomfortable to talk about without a, not a barrier, but just like someone who's not invested in either or. They haven't picked sides. Right. Neutral. Neutral. Yeah.

Thank you. A safe place that's neutral. Also, in couples therapy, you get to witness your partner in a different way because you might see them more vulnerable because the therapist might ask some different questions. So you have a chance to get to know your partner in a new way. and at the same time it can be really scary because you know when you start therapy you're you're uncovering and you're going deeper and you might decide you've changed you don't love each other in the same way you know 40 years is a is a wonderful long marriage do you want to keep going you know or do you part ways and try to be as loving as possible it's it's again there's a lot of shame about divorce oh shit lot of shame about not making it, right? Failing at marriage. Oh my God, yeah. And yet it is hard to grow together for 40 years or however many. I would be love. I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm a two-time

failure. But not a failure. No? No. No. See, that's what I think we have to start to reframe. Okay. Right. It feels like a failure because why, you got divorced. I've disappointed. Of course. Yeah. I just like, yeah, I disappointed myself. I disappointed them. It didn't work. We definitely grew to different.

I mean, both of my marriages were very, very long. So I gave it a good shot. And I was going to say, and you really tried. Yes. Right. And so, of course, when we fall in love and get married, we want it to be forever. We make these vows forever. Right.

Our children want it to be forever. Absolutely. Right. And if you don't like change, then you really want it to be forever. and yet if it isn't, how can we look at it as a success because you loved and then you tried and then you knew that it wasn't working anymore? Right. And it's okay if you grow apart.

It's part of what we're talking about. It does because if you don't grow, right, then you're not really alive. No, no. So that's our whole point of being here. Right. Grow and learn and love. Right. Right.

So sometimes marriages don't last forever often, but can that not be a failure? Of course it feels like one. It does, yeah. And we have to grieve. We have to make a lot of room for grief. I don't think people understand how much grief goes into a marriage that ends. That's right, because it's like a death except they're still alive. So you have to treat it almost as a death and give it the time to grieve and know the stages of grief.

and, you know, honor that. Yeah. You know, and sit in the feelings. Yeah. And know that at some point, and I feel this with both my marriages, there was love there. Like, I loved both of them because there was some really good moments there. And it hurts, you know, that they didn't, you know, last, you know, till the day I died. But it's okay.

It's okay. Like, we move on and we get over it. and hopefully we're still good human beings. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it is. It needs to be an ongoing conversation. It does. And you're right.

I think taking as I was talking to you and as I was talking to you about the two marriages and, you know, there was love there, I kept trying to come up with words that weren't failure as I was finishing it, you know, because I think when we are, when we specifically try to pull a word from our language so that it doesn't, you know, define it, that you can search for other words.

So I was searching for other words as I was trying to explain two marriages that didn't, you know, last until the day I died. You know, which I would have said before were failures. But no, they weren't because there was a lot of years and moments that were full of love and full of joy and full of laughter. And, you know, there were really shitty moments too. Yeah. But that doesn't negate the really good moments. That's right. Yeah.

That's right. So hold on to those. That's right. How do we hold on to all of that? Yeah. So here is someone calling in to ask a question. Let's see if we can help them. Hey, Val.

Dawn from Canada. Hi, Don. This is a question for you. Why is it that women have to reach their late 50s, early 60s, to really not give a shit about what people say or think about them? it's such a liberating feeling. And I think that if we could have had that feeling earlier on in our lives, we would have been happier. What do you think?

I think you're right on, Dawn. Don, you are speaking the truth. Yeah. But how do it? Because I know that I have definitely, I think a lot of it has to do with the work that I've done with you the past at least 10 years to where I really don't give a shit what people think anymore. Does that mean I don't care about my treatment of them? No. I still want to

people to have a good experience with me because I want to have a good experience with them. But it's not in my business what you think of me. And I think that a lot of that has come with age and some of it has come because of all the work that we were able to do. How can we give that to people at an earlier age? I love that question. I mean, I'll speak personally. I have a daughter who's 19. And I always say she is the unfiltered version of me. As a child, if I didn't have all of the shoulds or wanting to be the perfect, nice little girl, she's got a heart of gold, but she is feisty, and she's authentic, and she is angry, and then she recovers, and she's, you know, strong, and kind of seems like she doesn't give a crap, but she does. It's just she's expressing herself.

And I had to learn as a parent to really make room for that, right? Because it's not, I love it because it's what I wish I could have done. Right? So I think making room for all of those not so nice behaviors that aren't mean. And it's not hurting. It's not hurting. She's not hurting anyone. As long as she's not, she's working through feelings. She's working through feelings and it's organic. It's not censored. She doesn't, again, she'll think about what she says and not want to hurt anyone. But in her expression of herself, it's very organic.

It doesn't have all those shoulds. And I think also we should. It's a mind fuck. It's a mind fuck. It is. I should do this. I shouldn't have done that, you know. You did it.

Right. Okay. So what are you going to do about it? Right. Yeah. And some acceptance or curiosity. Why? Why did you do that? I did it that way. Yeah. Also, I think, as we talked about the midlife unraveling, why does it have to wait that long, right? Yes.

Why do, you know, we're taught these, you know, expectations of how to be. And one of them is don't express anger. Yes. Right? Don't show you anger. It's not especially for women. No, then you're bitchy or you're, you know, holier than now or like, what do you have to be angry about? Yeah, judging. Yeah. And it's uncomfortable. It's not pretty. No.

But it sure feels good to express it, right? So I think learning along the way earlier than we did that anger is just a feeling. Yep. Right? It's just how to express it. And anger is a feeling that I know is a more comfortable feeling to feel than fear or grief. Because fear and grief are scary, but anger is just like, release. So if we can go back to why that, what is it about that anger? Am I afraid of something?

Am I grieving something? Is something make me sad? And I can usually then start, and that's about getting curious about our feelings. But anger's okay. It's just don't hurt anybody with it. And don't say words that are mean and don't attack people in anger. You can be angry. I mean, I've hit my pillows plenty of time. And I try to. do it in my car because I also don't want to scream too loud because it'll scare my animals. So I don't want to scare my animals. Right. So because, you know, loud noises scare animals. So sometimes I'll just scream in my car. Right. Right. I know it's safe. I'm not going to hurt anybody, but I can get it out. Right. And sometimes we hurt people. We don't mean to, but sometimes

we hurt people in anger or we hurt people in our behavior. And that's that rupture and repair where we have to learn to take accountability and come back and say, I'm really sorry I did that. Yep. Or I'm really sorry I said that. Oh, God, I've done that, yeah, plenty of times. And you know what? It's really uncomfortable to apologize and say, you know what, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't.

I really wish I hadn't done that. And I really wish I hadn't hurt you. And I want to make it better. And how can we do that? Will you hear me? Can I hear you? Can I hear how I caused you pain? I've done that with people.

And it's so, you see the look on their face when the relief of like, oh, it's an acknowledgement of the pain that they went through. It's so helpful. And it makes you closer. Completely. It's so courageous. It's so vulnerable. And vulnerability connects people. And I think it starts with them being able to say, that hurt me.

You hurt me. Because if I don't know, but it was very vulnerable for that. person to come to me and say, that really hurt me. That's true. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, let's talk about it. That's right. I think that's a great point. Inviting people to be brave and say, you hurt me. Because, again, if we are all taught to be good girls and so nice and don't rock the boat and don't upset anybody, we don't even go back and say, hey, you hurt my feelings. Right. Because I don't want to, I don't want to disturb anything. Yeah, I don't want to rock the boat.

I don't want to, you know, we're getting a long fine now, so I can, I can hold it myself. Right. Just let it go. I've done that a million times in my life, and I don't, I'm not doing it anymore. Yeah. It's not healthy. No, it's not. So our conversation is not done yet. After this quick break, we're going to jump to the full reveal. Our segment of the podcast, especially made with the help of members of Valerie's Place.

As a reserve or VIP member of Valerie's Place, not only can you exclusively hear this particular portion of the show, but you can also leave me a voicemail with a question or a comment that we will then feature in a future episode. Thanks for listening to Getting Naked the podcast. If you want to listen to this episode's full reveal, head over to Valerie's Place.com and sign up. For just $2 a month, you'll get to hear the full reveal and get early access to every episode of the entire podcast.