Goes Without Saying - AI exploitation & tiktok misogyny: alexa, end the patriarchy

Episode Date: July 30, 2023

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The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying, you're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Sefi. And I'm Wing. And we have just had a very infuriating and amazing and kind of,

I can just feel the energy of the chat like still lingering about to be honest it starts about deep fake porn which is so bleak and when we move through into just all the ways that kind of women are exploited really and a collective anger that we feel and how that potentially is useful but also oh it gives me a bad vibe so if you are feeling like you want to get some like feminist anger and kind of shittiness of that masculinity has done to this world then enjoy okay this one feels a bit different already it's gonna get heated it is but it's the end of the day we're knackered and we've got some fury this is our fourth ep of the day which has been by the way a divine day

it really has actually what a pleasure congratulations what an honor what an honor and now this is the fourth one and you you gave two options you were like i've got one that could be really nice for us to like a nice fun episode and i've got one that could be really horrible and we have picked the horrible obviously we like to torture ourselves yeah and i can't wait oh i kind of can like so basically what happened was this morning i literally woke up and the first thing i did was went into the rabbit hole of people talking about ai deep fake porn and like misogyny and just like sexism and just all those really fun things that are the best thing to look at like when you've just woken up yeah so that it kind of set the tone for the rest of the day um i've kind of carried this with me throughout

the day just a little bit of like a little bit of disgust yeah a little bit of like how can i go to the supermarket when there are men these are the people i'm interacting with exactly it's it's just a little much for me to handle much yeah it's a little much god we used to say that every now and then but we don't anymore um a little is a little bit much but i just think you haven't let it impact i'm gonna let it get to me you haven't let it get to you no i haven't let it knock me down no you haven't let it impact. I haven't let it get to me. You haven't let it get to you. No. I haven't let it knock me down. No, you haven't. You haven't let it get you down. I've persevered.

Yeah. Because we spoke about it a bit before we dove into the four episodes. We spoke a little bit about, we've both, you can hear it in the first episode, go back a month, no, actually two weeks. The episode that we recorded first thing this this morning i believe it's going out well for us this tomorrow next thursday yeah right now basically yeah and we were talking a little bit about h3 yes a little bit about ethan i love yeah yeah um and that's where you saw this wasn't it so i'd seen it all before when it first happened which is like a few months ago like this specific

instance but then i was watching h3 covering it and it kind of it brought up some emotions for me so basically the the actual incident specifically is just kind of um like just one case of this whole conversation around like women's bodies being exploited through technology in a way that they have never really been exploited before yeah um and like the ramifications of that as young women and like what that means for humanity yeah the incident in particular was of a male twitch streamer yeah like this gamer guy and he and i don't know if i'm gonna tell this perfectly but you know give me a break at least i'm not making deep fake born of people literally can't make some slack he was streaming on twitch and he was live streaming

and he was sharing his screen or whatever and on his screen he showed for a brief moment the tabs like of what school boy it's like you're literally a streamer on twitch like you should know better you really just in like a kind of um you know watching your own back it's like gee the audacity you have to just move through the world with like so little care anyway he's live streaming on twitch he cuts to like a shot of his tabs open and one of them is deep fake porn of two women who are also streamers that he has paid for to be made like paid for access to and these two women are not only twitch streamers but they're also like in his social circle they're friends with his wife like they're all friendly like one of them's the girlfriend of one of his best friends this is what i'm hearing through the grapevine

this is literally months ago this is like such old news yeah but it just got me thinking about men really and just the state of the world anyway cut to like a couple of hours later literally a couple of hours later by the way quite crazy he comes on twitch and live streams himself with his wife next to him both that's the crazy bit that's the crazy it's so wild to me that he drags his wife into it she's live on camera to like thousands of probably young men like thousands of boys crying she's crying sitting next to her husband who she's just discovered along with the rest of the world has paid for deep fake porn to be made of like what i think is her mates and if not just his colleagues and even just other women yeah i am still shocked yeah and it kind of i just almost was thinking like am i weak no i can already

put that out there no like am i not like am i snowflake but almost like i was watching the man and wife i was watching this guy say he basically was like oh you know i didn't even it was an accident like it was like 2 a.m and i was on porn hub like a normal website and i just saw this advert and i clicked it and like you know it was like and then i just like put in my credit card details and i just like yeah then i just went to it all my two friends like i just like accidentally pulled down my pants i just paid for porn oh so bad so bizarre so i was kind of watching it thinking i was thinking so many things yeah but i was watching the wife sat next to him they're both crying the shame that he's like put her

through whatever like there's so much why does she need to be present in his apology like it's like what is going on so dramatic yeah like it's it's like not only have you humiliated me on your public stage yeah you're dragging me into it you're good you're gonna have me here parading my tears for all your followers to see so that we for whatever reason like i guess we look like a united front in your apology and like your career well it's probably so she can accept his apology meaning that it might make it more likely that the rest of the world accepts it because they're like well see she she accepted it but i was thinking i kind of had a thought when i was watching it which maybe is a weird thought for me to have but i was kind of watching them and i was like are you gonna have

sex with him again how how are you gonna have sex with this man like yeah and am i weak like no i would find it to be frank completely impossible to not be reminded of this situation every time this man touched me like yeah my relationship with them this is wife like my relationship with them would have to be over for so many reasons like you've humiliated me you've made me feel so inferior sexually i just i don't feel like romantic towards you you've also like put other women above me like but you've also humiliated those women you exactly and i that i think that's the crux is that you are somebody who doesn't value women as human beings not at all but you think you do so part of his like quote-unquote apology was him being like um i love that we're discussing this as if it's like

current literally like months ago wake up like all right internet explore in the last episode we're talking about the printing press so at least this is so true revolutions happening yeah right in his quote-unquote apology he's like he was like you know we don't do that on here like i never make jokes about women like i try and be so proactive for my like meanwhile close your tabs mate they're letting they're letting it slip it's just and again like echoes the idea of like being a nice guy or like you know i'm not one of them like the separation like the mental gymnastics that we do to separate ourselves and like expand the proximity that we have between us and what we see to be like this problem group of people i say he's not like all men but it's just oh jesus it's very so it put me in a stinky mood this

morning i have to say to be honest i do feel like i don't blame you for that getting you into a stinky mood it puts me into a stinky mood straight away but i feel like the whole conversation around i don't even want to take us here because it's a whole can of wiggling worms okay go on no take us i'm kind of in the mood okay i'm kind of in the mood yeah let's get in with wiggling you've warmed me up yeah yeah it's a can of worms to open okay the whole conversation around porn in general i do find really simplistic and yes almost like there's a binary that it has shifted from like it is first of all not empowering to women and now all of a sudden it is empowering to women and that is um what we've decided on

as a society is it can be empowering to women um and that's the end of the conversation almost yeah but there is yes yes before they are on to us yeah it's almost like wait wait wait wait anymore like there is such a spectrum in there and also i do find it interesting whenever i talk to women about porn and whenever i talk to men about porn there is obviously such a um there's so many conflicting opinions of like what they believe this thing to be like or the purpose of it or like how ingrained it is in just like oh an everyday behavior or like that's just a fact of life like I was talking to my friend the other day about how they would feel about their boyfriend watching porn and it was just one of those really interesting conversations where it's like

oh it's just so nuanced and i feel like whenever you try and have that conversation with a guy about porn is often met with such defensiveness because it is a thing that i mean it's been normalized it's completely part of the culture it's completely part of the culture that it's expected of men in fact it seems almost odd if men don't like consume this to be honest yeah horrific thing like it is i don't know it's absolutely fascinating and we've spoken about it on the podcast before the time when me and you sat down for like four hours and watched porn all day until the sun went down we made our breakfast sat down and watched some porn and before we know we looked around it was fucking quarter to five everyone's starting

to make dinner and we it's like have we been watching porn all day sick to our stomach all day i think we were because also we we spoke about this before but it was on a supposedly like empowering we really surfed the world wide web we like, let's try and find some porn that we would consider ethical, empowering, sexy even. Yeah, let's get hot and heavy. Let's find something sexy in this world. Let's see if we can find some sexy porn. Or porn that even just looked even slightly appealing to be in the situation. We went on all the websites that were like like porn made by women for women blah blah blah

tell me why every single woman is like getting beaten up like what am i watching i remember pitching to you i was like well there's quite a gap in the market here maybe it could be like you know kind of sephian wing porn nothing but like sephian wing like porn company like maybe we should make some ethical porn however that in itself i do think is a big question but kind of going back to what you're saying is reminding me this the guy who in his apology when he said like you know i was just on like nice normal website like everybody else so normal so nice and normal sadly i know i've said this before no it's it's so it's so it's like disgustingly normal normalized i remember oh no i don't know if i should give this away for free

give it away no no genuinely i don't know if i should give it away because it's like a credible idea um as in like for a pr campaign i think it was my boyfriend's idea like god no don't give that away i know that's really good i know it is good there was a reason why he couldn't do it but basically it was like for educating men around like um sexual harassment and things like that he wanted to like buy out loads of advertising slots on porn hub and like porn websites he's a genius he's an absolute genius anyway um it reminded me of something i've said like literally a hundred times i say it all the time in my real personal life and i say it all the time on here for some reason the idea that like on porn hub and i guess porn in general a category being teen i knew you're going here

you know i say it all the time but it's like a category teen so it's like okay do you mean 19 do you mean 18 do you mean do you mean pedophile fucking 15 do you mean you mean you're a fucking nonce man you're disgusting you're a disgusting little freak it's like don't pretend that's a time yourself in you're a fucking nonce that's child porn that is child it's child pornography they look you want them to look as young as possible you're clicking on the category for them to look as young as possible they're in school uniforms it's absolutely repellent no but it's just like right go on then go down to tesco and get served by ma'am why don't you i know i'm jumping i know i'm reaching but this is how it makes me feel it makes me feel really like unsafe in the world a hundred percent because also i feel like if you asked i feel like if you asked any man or to be

honest look porn isn't my thing i'm not a fan of it so maybe i'm lucky to not find it sexy i'm concerned for anyone right i'm concerned for um people who can sustain a hard-on the quality of it i'm concerned for the quality of it considering it's such a booming industry i'm hearing god you think they'd put some money into it jesus christ it's like why does like me as a peasant why does my instagram story look better like why is the quality like the production value of the outfit that i wear for a walk it's two pound fifty they put into this it's insane it is literally like did you not maybe they they basically they've gone into like

a sort of house that is absolutely empty of furniture they've turned the brightness on and they've just said right have sex turn the lights on zoom in where's the rug where's the lamp where's the plant and where's the plush and to be honest yeah like almost like the plush he needs some fucking like um lip balm on like he needs to like have a shower and he's like clean his fingernails like oh she needs oh i don't know there's a lot that needs to happen before that even borders on being like attractive to me so maybe i'm coming from a position where i just don't find it sexy but also i think that comes from there's a huge political yeah it's not sexy because it's not made for you no it's not but i do also think that there is something in

being exposed to it at a really young age which thank god thank god i wasn't i remember actually once at my friend's house who's actually the same friend that featured in the last episode i just heard a little thing about her but she me i was at her house we went on her family computer and we just like we were so young and we just typed in porn which i'm sure so many people do because we're like what is this porn that everyone's talking about p-o-r-n.com typed in porn and it came up flashing up like big like pair of boobs or like a big penis and we literally screeched and turned it off and we're like what did we just see and i'm so glad that i have basically i managed to get through my adolescence without yeah um finding this um huge thing on the internet or like being compelled to see it because i feel like once when you're beginning to understand

your sexuality if that's the thing that you're using as an aid to like understanding your sexuality all of this stuff or like finding men hot like the first sort of sex scenes you've seen are like literally horrific sex acts being performed in these like highly lit kitchens and swimming pools then no wonder you're confused like no wonder then there's a whole thing of to be honest i find it that it's hugely nuanced but like the idea of women enjoying being choked in bed it's like there is a hugely political layer to that that often gets put under the guise of like it's empowering whatever your kink is there's a huge nuance to that but i'm personally really glad i wasn't understanding my sexuality through the lens of like men filming women having sex or like however they want it yeah like being violated

for men to wank over because it is really traumatic then because that's how you see yourself in those situations i do feel like the conversation around sex and porn and now i actually think in a way hopefully through the conversation of like deep deep fake porn and like the conversations that it's creating and also like the horror and like the actual pure terror that it's creating but like with yeah literally like with the wave of this new technology hopefully it will draw in some new conversations that are like long overdue even just if it gets people thinking a little bit more about quote-unquote normal porn on Pornhub just the idea of like how do we view women it was actually something that Ethan said on that podcast sorry

i'm in such an ethan phase today i know it's painful um he was talking about it was when they were covering the incident of the streamer oh slab and l sorry it's like the last bit of water in my cup it was really loud it was like um it was like as if zach had come slurp kind of um milkshakes like my last bit of my milk like here's the tea yeah no it looks divine it's literally and ela was there his wife so if you don't know basically it's like a male podcaster ethan and like his wife and they run h3 whatever like basically just there's a man and wife once again and ela the wife was like it's so horrifying like i would be really uncomfortable if i knew someone had done that to me and ethan i don't

think it was quite yeah i'm just taking a percent yeah i thought it was quite weird ethan replied like well like there definitely is and he was like he was like i think any woman it's so horrific it's like that's your wife it's so ethan it's so ethan he's just himself he's just honestly just so much pure unadulted ethan love the guy he was like i think any woman out there you know has probably got one or two deep fake porn situations of them flying around and that i think was this the thing that like took me a little bit because it was kind of like okay we're watching i'm watching a room full of men i'm having the time of my life and they're discussing like this really horrific situation it's really serious but like you know whatever yeah and just the contrast in like the lived experience of what it means to be a woman

navigating this real world where you're just impacted in a very specific way and actually like earlier when we were talking about the types of media like it's like yeah you're just you're supposed to just go to tesco knowing that like everyone's on porn hub watching teenagers get choked out for example but then they're not just watching it then they go home no they're living it then they get their hand around their girlfriend's throat and say you're loving it and they've got a boner whilst their hand is around someone's throat it's disgusting that what i was gonna say is it the things that are expected of us like almost just um the status quo as young women and when we were talking about like what's represented in the media kind of um just like

loads of oh it just it goes across like gender and race and religion and there are lots of different like marginalized communities or groups of people who are made to feel a certain way via the way that they're represented in the media as young women i know sometimes when we get in these moods i find it hard to go to tesco i know i keep saying that but like i think it can be hard to deal with interact interact with men hard to interact with men and almost just like hard to live here no totally i completely agree kind of off the back of um what i was saying in the last episode about like being um exposed to different kinds of people like for example at uni like speaking to a certain type of person i was telling sephi like a few weeks ago or whenever it was i was

saying like my nan used to like eat her fingernails because she was starving like she was literally a starving peasant child i've been thinking about that a lot actually have you yeah i've been thinking about that just when i was with my grandma the other day i was really just thinking about that your grandma was your grandma yeah yeah yeah and as a nail biter i um think yes you're actually eating them yeah she was like begging for bread and stuff she's literally the most amazing woman i've ever known but i don't know just like things like that are very much in our lived experience and it just it just hurts a little bit and like i don't know like i'm not done like hurting over it but i also feel like i'm moving into a slightly let's call it a new era i'm i'm in my tired era like i'm i'm definitely getting a little bit sleepy i feel like when the podcast started we were young sprightly spring chickens and i was

very angry we had a lot of energy and i think we had a lot of confidence due to no audience we felt like very unapologetic and like free to speak i don't know if i necessarily feel free to speak anymore and i think as i've gotten older i've actually i think i've lost like free to speak i don't know if i necessarily feel free to speak anymore and i think as i've gotten older i've actually i think i've lost the will to speak well i definitely have lost the will to argue like i definitely i really really struggle to have these conversations with people that disagree i find it so upsetting and so um horrific and invalidating and awful and just like almost like wrong like when i am trying to i also feel like in just in terms of men and a lot of these things play out in for example for example the conversation about porn is like a sexual dynamic when i am like dating or in a

romantic or like dating or sexual situation with someone i find it so oh god i don't even know what the word is like that you couldn't yeah go on i just find it like when i'm trying when i'm in these conversations with someone that i'm potentially like romantically engaged with and they have a differing opinion to me or they have never thought about like how porn impacts them or something like that it's like i actually don't know if i can be fucking bothered to explain to you because if you if you don't have women in your it means you don't have women in your life in your life because they would have told you about this or they or you don't have you've never been challenged on this and you think oh i'm being a crazy feminist for bringing up how um the porn industry

impacts women or how obviously most of those women aren't consenting it's just so fucking obvious or like i hate to say his name the devil himself andrew tate no don't say it these conversations fear of a name only i don't want to summon him. Do you know what I mean? Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet.

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Acast.com. You know, having these conversations with men, I just find it exhausting. Like, and also the, you said this ages ago on the the podcast but i think it's such a fucking good point not i can't remember it word for word but you were saying about how sometimes you're talking to a man that you trust in your life and is like someone that you have good conversations with and you know views you as a human being on this planet that is equal and then they'll just say something that shows you that they don't, that fundamentally you are a woman to them. And they really show that there's a huge distinction between a man and a woman's experience. And it's just so jarring. And I've been having, obviously, loads of experiences like that just in my life. Just how you have them every day, really.

And it is so fucking jarring and exhausting and i agree with you i don't have the energy for it anymore but i do have the energy like i can feel the fire the like anger that i have for this topic or like any of these topics but i only have that energy when i'm not being fought back at if when you're going to be hyped up for as soon as someone starts when you've got me on the other end of the line going yes yeah well i know this is going to women that agree the thought of having to like argue this point when i feel it so deeply and i've lived it and everyone i all the women i know have lived it and it massively impacts everything the thought of having someone be like just playing devil's advocate but it's like no i actually will be sick i'll be sick in your face please don't say that to me like yeah i don't have

any energy to like um convince someone anymore no but i think i used to for sure you get worn down don't you in life yeah and also you kind of i always say you have to know where to push I also think I find it easier um or like more natural to um feel the fury like and have it ready to go and like have the discussion when the topic doesn't necessarily directly impact me but just almost like it's something I'm invested in but I don't feel like i'm having to fight the fight for me if that makes sense like almost the energy is a lot easier to get like for example if i'm talking about like oh my grandparents came as immigrants and they couldn't speak english and everyone was racist to them and blah blah blah it's like oh i'm ready to go like and defend any

given moment yeah and i'll defend them to my dying day but almost like the energy to justify myself which to be honest like i'm not often called to do in life like i definitely i don't have these kinds of conversations i'm not met with resistance by like really anybody actually in my life and like god not really on social media and stuff well there's no like none of my friends like none of my family it's always just fucking like speak to my family but oh it's just the like it's just like the men in the pub do you know what i mean like it would just be the odd yeah the odd person that disagrees with just the smallest thing it's like you just showed you just showed so much in that small interaction i had with you you just showed why should she keep your mouth shut that how little

you know anyway christ well anyway no i do think as well it's like the exhaustion that we feel it's like there's we also have so much privilege that means there are so many things that we don't have to be exhausted by on a daily basis and there are lots of things that we can take as a given like i guess at least the conversation around for example deep fake porn is that it's wrong and like most people i think generally seem to be kind of of the view yeah we seem to have the consensus going that like it's fucked up and it's not right which i do hope it brings in a further conversation about like you know we can expand that across not just deep fake porn but like you know we understand revenge porn like we're slowly starting i think to understand

how we're getting the whispers of like caring about women a little bit we are but even the word revenge porn i mean it's like revenge she did something wrong did she oh it's like what huh like is that all right chloe kardashian revenge body yeah it's like revenge what so he did that to get revenge oh i am knackered you know what i'm gonna do later like once we've done this and i might even do it while i'm editing the one that's going up tomorrow get a mcdonald's oh stunning what are you ordering i'm really in my mcdonald's era i get the same thing every single time i get well sometimes i add a few extra sides on but the bulk of my main order is a so i get a cheeseburger yeah double cheeseburger with extra onions and extra pickles

wow okay yeah just put that to the side yeah then i get a large chicken nugget meal so i get so that's chicken nuggets chips and a drink large chips large drink so i've got kind of i've got chicken nuggets i've got my coke zero i've got my fries i've got my cheeseburger yeah and then i'll normally get an apple pie. Yeah. And then I'll also maybe get, if it's hot outside, I'll get the Biscoff McFlurry or the Malteser McFlurry. God, stunning. Do you know what I'm considering trying? I don't love McDonald's. I'm actually just going to put that out there.

I don't love it. Yeah, I hear that. My favourite thing on the menu, which will get get disputed is the veggie dippers i love them yeah which there we go disputed disputed disputed you're not not disputed i love it for you i love it for you i love your hippie camping life i love it too but the thing that i've been taught basically why i would always get those is because the mcplant oh yeah i'm not a huge fan of it too meaty well i don't mind it because it'd be on meat which i love but it's just so thin and like oh but now there's a double mcplant option

so i might do that but i've heard that is the thing to do just for the vegans out there that's good yeah if you find your mcplant a bit uh what was that double it up well that was what would happen to me i would have to eat so i mean i still eat like i get more than just an order but like if i just got like a meal at mcdonald's it would be like nothing it's not anything it's like god give me something more well this is my problem because yeah so i'm getting the mcplant the chips i only drink water so a water just don't bother and then i want the veggie insult to ronald at this point yeah no it's it's really quite embarrassing but no i'm joking what i'm here for is you know what i'm here for is just the vibe of a mcdonald's it's like it's comforting everyone behind the counter is a misogynist no joke only the men i like the

vibe as well i actually love the vibe of i mean it's so part of their thing but like the late night sort of drive-through vibe exactly i love that so much maybe even raining oh it has to be it has to be late night you're on your way back in the car like it's a long journey and then you just think oh my god shall we go you go please please can we go i'm always thinking you've popped out for it like i don't want to be too you know when you've been on a long drive and it's like you're a bit nothing almost your bums aching sick yeah i almost kind of want to be like i've just done something maybe you've just cried or something like that yeah you just cried you've just had a big cry and then it's like you've just cried and now you're feeling like pure wide open and open ready to be filled with with shit and chemicals yeah perfect that sounds quite nice nothing i love more are you eating it

in the car or are you bringing it home in the car i a bit of both but there's something special about eating food in the car food in car in the car kevin malone food in car food in car food in car is my vibe for sure agreed really warm raining outside oh my god almost like when you roll the window down and you're getting like the breeze comes in yeah there's a little bit of rain coming in it's like what did you want oh god it's good it's good it sounds so good that's what i want for us but unfortunately i'm getting fucking deep fake deep fake porn mornings well maybe we should do that i know we don't have a car um no well i was thinking i'm gonna get a car i 100 when i get some money you know what i did like i used to drive around my boyfriend i used to love really i loved my car but then i don't know if i've told you guys really about my car but it used to come up with the engine light on all the time i used to drive for like four hours like i used to get on the motorway

just on my own and like this tiny little nissan micro and then the engine light would come on and it was just a disaster nightmare um and it had to get scrapped eventually which is so sad but i used to love driving my boyfriend's car he had a nice car and i would drive it around town and i does he still have his car no he gave it to his sister and then his sister got rid of it she got a new one i actually had because when we came here we were like there's no point having the car in brighton no there's no point are we the queen of england literally it was actually quite sad when i went to my well it was nice but i went to my grandma's house the other day and she has our old car which was actually her old car but she got in a car crash a couple months ago had to give her back her old car happy to do so the classic honda jazz the iconic iconic honda jazz so iconic queen of my life

honda jazz um but i saw it on the driveway and it's like oh my god the honda jazz i miss you still insured on it you could drive yeah i'm still insured but we were going in a different honda my mom runs in the family yeah two mile game but yeah but i saw the honda jazz and i just thought oh my god so close but so far we've been talking about a few things that have been on my mind i was thinking about driving because driving used to be one of my hobbies honestly it's such a good you know how people like just going for a run is just such a reset like just doing this it's like going for a drive lovely drive reset divine although cost of living i don't know no yeah yeah saying these days petrol is crazy i know it's crazy right well look we just, I hope you don't mind the petrol chat, but we just had to,

you know, clean off our tongues a little bit. Let's just clean the palate. And that was petrol is crazy. Just restore us back to normal. Yeah. Yeah. Petrol is crazy. Patriarchy is crazy.

Is crazy. Porn is crazy. God, boy, is it. If you don't hear from us, assume the worst.