Goes Without Saying - bdsm and rape fantasies: that's it. that's the episode.

Episode Date: April 20, 2020

written and directed by quentin tarantino's foot fetish. do men abuse power dynamics during sex? can we break away from heteronormativity? why do women settle for mediocre men? are you having feminist sex? in this chaotic episode of Goes Without Saying we (sephy & wing) answer your questions, covering all the bases from sex and racism to scooby-doo. speak your mind on our instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Hire Priestess. My name is Erin. And my name is Persephone. Awful. Awful. Hi, I'm Erin. It will never get more natural, that intro. No, it's so gross. Maybe we should change it up. Kind of, um, hey cool cats and kittens. Like a rap. I'm going like, hello everybody and welcome to the show.

That's so timestamped now that if this is in like six months time when everyone's forgotten about hiking that's not a thing anymore yeah I love that that everyone's just over it um your questions were so good last time that we thought it was only right to get into some more yeah because they were pretty juicy they were so good I was so happy with our long long long discussions and I came away wanting so much more i was so happy with our answers to be honest not gonna lie i was what did we discuss last time we were talking about dating and we were talking about loneliness we were talking about are you born you it's quite heavy quarantine any um honorable quarantine mentions this week oh god no nothing has gone on I've just been dreaming a lot I've just had so many dreams well here we go oh well here we go yeah Erin messaged me earlier being like that wasn't even a purposeful segue I was I was gonna

say nicely done I was thinking I had a dream where um what's the name the woman that plays Cersei Lena Headey yeah was running an Airbnb that I stayed in and I was thinking about that just a dream I had that's a nice dream yeah it was cool but go on what was your dream Erin messaged me saying she had a crazy dream and I want to know everything I really did have a crazy dream it was just awful so basically I'm vegan shout out to the animals shout out to the environment so yeah i'm vegan and um have been vegan for a while and have never had dreams like this however in the space of about a week and a half i've had two of these dreams and after research on the internet i have found out that they are called meat mares as in a nightmare you're

joking but it's a meat mare oh my god so last night i don't know if you guys have seen this thing called hot ones have you seen it no what's hot ones hot wheels the cars that's exactly what i'm talking about you know Hot Wheels Hot Ones is this thing it's like uh you would love it Ricky Gervais has done it you would love that where they eat hot wings they eat hot wings I've seen it yeah yeah yeah when you said Ricky Gervais has done it I knew instantly yeah it's a really cool thing with this guy Sean Evans is for Complex it's really cool anyway so I really enjoy them Jack likes them last night we watched a couple called it a date whatever and I've already said called it a date that's a date honestly call it a date that's the reality like my dream date is what hot wheels in bed it really is but whenever I see hot ones I just think

that looks delicious like they look so good so when ricky did it they do vegan wings oh i love it so they do they do like accommodate people yeah but most of the time yeah they're not vegan but anyway they just look so like crispy and like juicy and like good love it because it's so spicy and i don't really love spicy food but oh it's just like god i want to do it like you can really see them reacting to us like get me on that fucking show it's just anyway career goals anyway we can recreate it we can do a mukbang this is what i keep saying to jack i'm thinking it's quite a good gift yeah the ones because they kind of rotate a set few like it's like 10 hot sauces or whatever and i'm thinking like it quite a good idea to get the main ones.

There's one called, if you've seen it, you'll know what I'm about to say. There's one called Da Bomb Beyond Insanity. So I don't know why that makes me want to eat it. But anyway, I'm obsessed. So anyway, I go on and on about how good they look. Obviously, I'm not fucking eating them because I'm vegan. And because I don't own Da Bomb. Beyond Insanity. Beyond Insanity. I'm vegan. And because I don't own Da Bomb. Beyond insanity.

Beyond insanity. Go to sleep. What am I eating in my fucking dream? I'm guessing it's Da Bomb. Beyond insanity. It would even, it would be better if it was Da Bomb, but it was just honestly generic chicken wings. And I, so what happened was I walked up to the plate.

I saw them and Jack had some and they were chicken and I had some and they were vegan and I couldn't find my vegan ones so I was like listen I'm gonna and I this was my internal monologue I was like I'm gonna have to eat the chicken ones yeah and I ate them I ate like four of them and there was still like eight in the bowl and then people started coming into the room so I was like shit, shit. And I fucking, I like hid them. I was like, Jack, like those aren't mine. Like those were your ones. Like yours are here.

Like I was like dying of guilt and embarrassment. Like I was so mortified. And I was like, why have I done that? That they'd got you special ones. And I kind of had sauce all over me. Caught red-handed. Honestly blinded by the bomb beyond insanity that is beyond insanity so i just don't understand because i've been vegan for a while and i don't know why i've never had a dream like that or anything like it and then in the space of like two weeks i've had like

a couple of dreams about that god because people were saying on the internet like oh i was vegan for like three years and at first i would have meat mares all the time but like i haven't had them since it's like no like i'm i don't want to eat meat like the other dream i had i was eating eggs oh god even worse god scrambled eggs i also think that's really interesting because i've never heard that term i've been veggie since i was five or six and I've been vegan now for like five years and I've never never had a meat mare not in my like recollection isn't it weird because it's like where is that coming from god that's really horrific it's really traumatizing because a lot of people were saying maybe it's from your guilt that like you used to

eat meat oh that was what they were saying to one another and then someone else was like it's just because you know that it's disgusting it's something that you shouldn't do so it comes out in your dream because you're scared of it it's like i don't really i can't really i don't really have much many feelings towards meat because also i ate it for a long time i ate meat like i was a big meat eater and you're not like disgusted by it are you i kind of am like in my mind but seeing someone eat like i watch hot ones and like think it looks delicious but also i watch hot ones and think like oh look at like the flesh and like bones interesting and i was and i ate meat for like 20 years and then just went vegan like hard

yeah so i don't like i just wonder at what or if it just means nothing or if it's coming from a place of something that I don't understand yet I did a story about dreams and things like that and like um dream and and what's it called dream analysis and analysis why can't I say analysis you said it dream dream and a dream analysis yeah I did a story about dream analysis and dreams and all my favorite things like that and I people were sending in stuff like my face got eaten by dogs a lot of people having mad dreams and it's like I do just think I know what Freud said but I do think dreams are just nonsense I don't know how you think it's nothing well I think there's obviously things that play in but I definitely don't think it's like someone said oh yeah I had dreams about snakes and it's like

okay well obviously you can say oh it's so phallic it's so why why are you so interested if you think they're kind of nonsense like why why do you think you like them so much I don't think they're nonsense I think people go into them too much so for example I have a dream dictionary and I was looking through and it's like well for example I can just show you one thing now and you can see the nonsense yeah the problem is with a dream dictionary you can't use a dictionary for subjective thought exactly as in a snake will mean something very different to me who has little to no feelings towards snakes exactly yeah versus somebody else who has a pet snake has a phobia of snakes calls people snakes etc like people have very different ideas of like general is a

slytherin yeah exactly well i can't find my dream dictionary i'm like i've got one really should i get one for fun yeah yeah get it and just go for just the first one because it is just ridiculous some of them are so interesting but some of them are just like oh come on if everything is a penis every single thing is a penis oh mine's right here mine's right here oh mine's right here we go on then you do yours maybe we'll pick the same word oh yeah should we pick the same word go on what word that's quite an interesting one padlock have you ever seen a padlock in a dream um i don't know i don't think so not in my i don't think i have but it says an ability to keep a specific aspect aspect fuck me an ability to keep a specific aspect of my character feeling secure,

even though it may become an obstacle to greater fulfillment. Oh, I am fascinated though. I also think it's interesting to see what is in your subconscious and you're not going to find the answer in a dictionary. Exactly. God, guys, ridiculous. That's why I have one. Who would have one of those? Yeah, literally literally that's why i look at it every day also someone said one that was so scary that was

like um that they had a dream that there was a man who would like get closer to her every night like a recurring dream a recurring dream but it's like that's scary because there's that thing of like you never see a dream and you're facing a dream that doesn't exist in real life that you haven't seen and it's like that's yeah but that's not true i think that is true no you can't create features but just because you see a face in your dream doesn't mean that that face exists on somebody else how how does that make sense you think every face that you've seen from when you were like four has seeped into your subconscious and they're going to play out in dreams it's just like features as in you know what an eye looks like so you can create it but that's a question of like perception and like reality i think you can um i think you probably did see that person someone on tv or

something not like from when you were five but someone they probably like walked past you that day or yeah maybe that's true that can happen but that viral thing that like viral notion of like yeah you can only dream of something that you've seen before is that that's obviously fake fake news yeah totally but I do think it's like um well yeah exactly because you can create objects in your dream for sure yeah you can it's your perception you can manipulate it I mean I'd love to do a whole episode on dreams because I find them fascinating let's get into some cues so one of the questions that we loved I mean I don't really have it on my phone right now can you oh I'm like over to you you're like no um it says we got a couple like this but it's an

interesting topic thoughts on dating down why do we do it problematic or okay inside secret we had a whole episode on this topic essentially and just had to i think scrap it i don't know if it's permanently scrapped but i'm thinking it is pretty much permanently scrapped i don't know i think potentially i've still got it saved it's not edited or anything but it was the first ever episode we recorded for a seat for season two i.e this season yeah the first season past our pilot season and we.e this season yeah the first season past our pilot season and we were like this is the topic we want to discuss why women settle for less than they deserve in relationships we want to talk about that but the way we articulated it and we used a specific piece of terminology that we're just not happy with and we use that

throughout we're just not happy with it yeah i think it's something that we have you have to be careful like as well another inside thing with the podcast it's like we often are just talking shit as in we could have a million and one thoughts and if you want me to give you an answer in like five minutes you're not going to get like the cohesion of the full million and one thoughts because i'm going to have to be yeah concise and like have brevity in a way that i never would if I was being super eloquent in like a lovely essay because that's kind of the natural exploration of a topic exactly and also all of my thoughts contradict each other all of them I don't 100% believe in

anything I kind of see it I try anyway to see it from all angles and come up with why all of them are good we've had this before with someone saying what about what are your thoughts on a six out of ten dating a four out of ten was that in that episode yeah i don't know i think that was a different app and we were saying that i don't believe in ratings which i don't believe and there is no objective dating down dating up everything is subjecting yeah one man's trash is another man another man's treasure i was thinking what is it another man's okay so should we tackle problematic or okay because i wonder what you mean by problematic i think it's problematic for society yes that as you said earlier men can lean into mediocrity much more easily and like slip into just being kind of carefree and like they don't have to worry so much about who they are

and how successful in quote marks that they are and how beautiful they are and all just ever just there are so many more facets that every element of society as a woman has to be enhanced you'd be an absolute fool to say that men were criticized on the same level as women like that yeah it's totally different you are i'm sorry but you're wrong incorrect you've got a red cross next to that so i think it's problematic yeah for society i think it's like a a problem with the way that we have structured society and like the ongoing blast of the patriarchy yeah problematic for like you as an individual why would someone choose if someone was consciously choosing to

date down why would they do so could they benefit from that in any way could they really benefit from that in any way i think more likely than benefiting i think it would be an issue of self-esteem yeah as in you you date down because you don't realize what you could have and you kind of go for the the piece of shit like it's really tricky yeah because even then i'm like okay that's not true benefit do you know i mean like are there any true benefits and also why is it the woman's fault for choosing to date down rather than the man's fault for being mediocre like why is it like why did you date down it's like why would she have to have a reason rather than he just do better is there any way like what i'm trying to get out is that is there any like quite

like slumflower kind of way that dating down could be manipulated or like appropriated in quote marks to be beneficial for a woman but i i kind of think in the sense of dating down you immediately imply that they have little or nothing to offer so immediately yeah yeah i don't think there is anything to do with it because otherwise i think it's just another symptom of the patriarchy that's like women are just encouraged to just like know your place and your place is right at the bottom so you should be lucky to be picked by any any old loser yeah honestly scraps yeah the scraps we've seen people settle for quite depressing well the scraps we've settled like i've settled for scraps like not even settled but i've thought like when you're insecure the scraps suddenly isn't so much of a scrap they're suddenly a whole meal no when you're starving hungry scraps look delicious

when you're in like sick form the scraps are the cool guys yeah you don't realize that it's just so crazy i also think what we had an issue with in the last ep where we discussed this as in the scraps episode the vetoed episode honestly like the um like defamation of character like cannot be found joking it's not that bad but it's like that wouldn't someone hacked my laptop and they just find a file called scraps I was like oh honestly like do, like, do not open. Confidential. If you're listening to this, it's too late. I actually think it's not that bad. No, it's not that bad. But almost, we guys, we have quite high standards

for like how we, like what we present to you. I don't ever want to like. Yeah. We don't want to give you guys something that isn't good. Yeah. But I think what we were trying to get at as well, the last time we discussed this. We say as last, in the last episode,

we're literally like Final Destination three um everything has to be the highest standard so anyway game of thrones and i'm like there is someone walking behind you um the thing that i think we were struggling to get across is how frustrating it can be on a personal level to watch other women almost be um blissfully ignorant and it's like at what point do you have the right to interrupt their bliss and educate for example like at what point can you step in and help or are you just being an arsehole because i find it really difficult to watch my friends settle for scraps. And if they're with a scrap, it pisses me off. A scrappy dappy do.

Yeah, honestly, it's annoying. But like not even cute, not even funny. Oh, no, scrappy do in Scooby-Doo Monster... Monsters Unleashed. No, not Monsters Unleashed, Spooky Island. When he's the bad guy, Emil Monteverius. Yes. Oh, it's their cousin,'t it scrappy do is scooby's cousin and he plays the guy that's rowan atkinson mr beam and he has like a really big head and

they're in like that cave thing yeah the damon writers god i watched a bit of that recently yeah and i was like i can't really charles was like I don't want to watch this I was like please please like he wanted to he wanted to play fortnite and I was like the tv is mine to watch spooky island I'm sorry but does it frustrate you yes so much yeah completely because it's like I think you are so great why on earth are you going out with someone or choosing so basically the first person that showed any interest the first person that picked you because it's like you it's not about that person yeah i know you're so great i'm your friend of course i would but beyond that i'm so frustrated with society that it's done this to you yeah and you're not gonna look around and like you're not gonna kind of wipe your like clear your kind of windscreen yeah you don't care to you don't care to yeah want a bit more but what

who am i to decide that and why does my notion of more doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily equal your notion of more yeah but also i think that as much as it's like subjective who is good like who is valuable and who's not it kind of we can all see when someone's treating someone like shit yeah it kind of isn't that subjective. It is kind of objective. Like some people do offer more and some people... I mean, have you ever seen someone that's just waited around to be picked and then the second they're picked, they're like,

yay, like done. And it's a scrappy do. Honestly, yes. Too many times that I would like to tell. Well, we've spoken about this before and this was the first time we told this story in the Scrappy-Doo episode, well, forever known as.

But how I thought I was dating a Jon Snow, but then later to be found out was a Robin Aron. The round of applause, guys. Honestly, it just sums it up. Yeah, because it's like, okay, so you thought it wasn't, you thought it was a whole meal, but actually it was a whole meal but actually

it was a scrap sorry oops that even wasn't coming from an insecure person i think it is and also i don't they weren't a scrappy do but it also it's also it's just it's quite interesting it's interesting to watch the like um adoration and respect we so quickly don't unto others that we would never dream of giving to ourselves. Or having put onto us even. Like people don't give, like, I just think it's so easy for a man to be seen as amazing because all a man has to do to be amazing is exist. I told you this story before. This probably was in this episode, but we never, it never went out. My friend was on Tinder. So she just got out of a relationship and she just

straight away went on tinder cool love that for her so i was with her and he was messaging her and they were gonna meet up and she was like trust me he's so great he's never even said anything creepy and i said back to you the bar is so low that's the standard and then at that minute he messaged her being like we could go get a hotel wink wink and it's like he even failed at that he even failed at the bare bare minimum but still but but now but because he was the first person that picked her she's now with him yeah it's like okay so you literally were just like the ultimate scrappy do of a guy but you just thought yeah i'll go for that sure i honestly think it's so frustrating because

there's such a perception around women being hysterical and desperate but at the same time here we are being hysterical and being desperate it's so gutting yeah it really is it is to be honest quite depping and it's really hard to break that like cycle break the wheel yeah because the only way to um to break it is just to realize oh shit I don't need to do that but then it's like yeah so I was facetiming my friends last night and they were like to me so are you with anyone you with anyone it's like well why is that the first question like why is that always always the first question because I've got some funny stories I can tell you sure that's what you want to hear but that's not what you want to hear. You want to hear, so are you settling down?

Are you getting a house? And it's like, I'm 23. No, no. Yeah, no. I can't tell you how in bold writing I'm writing no. Yeah, how far that is, as you said, from your itinerary. It's like not even on, it's not even. It's not on the agenda.

It's not on the agenda. And also it's like your perception on it's not even it's not on the agenda it's not on the agenda and also it's like your perception of how my life should go if i even told you how radically different my perception of how my life is going to go i want it to go is from your image i think your mind would explode like i find it really fascinating because sometimes when it's really hard to say this without sound like an absolute cunt but you know when you kind of look around you think like god you would think that i'm like a super like hippie crazy liberal just like really like radical like oh my god like so like political

you would think i'm a super crazy person but i am just learning to respect myself and you don't like it yeah because it makes you question the way that you see yourself yeah well we were talking can we talk a bit about jobs yeah well we've had kind of a similar thing this is in the sense of people's world view not being accepting to like new ways of thinking and new ways of like i.e making money or living well people find it really difficult to adjust yeah to a new way of thinking as in you and i both do both do jobs that very much subvert a traditional like way of living and it's not typically like domestic and even people who are in our own like close circles find that hard to understand, even though they know us. Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment.

And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet so i don't know why they would be shocked it's almost it's really tough because i think a lot of people look at anything especially on social media like i mean it's just only about judgment like i don't know if social media functions for much else other than just a place to judge and be judged oh my god i love it so people find it really hard i think they would still be like oh i would never do that and it's like but i know you want to yeah so if you can't be honest about what you want

why do you think someone's gonna hand it to you please truly no because they don't they they want it but they're just happy to accept it's like okay i want it but kind of like it's a bit like embarrassing though so i think there's kind of a weird thing where I have I've been in a lot of conversations recently with some people and they because I just go about my life talking to random people conversing honestly conversation lifestyle um it really is though um and they've been like you just need to just get like a like or they were like, do you just not want like a stable, like nice job, like your forever job? And it's like, I don't want a forever anything.

I don't want a forever anything. And the least of all, I want a forever job. Job. No, I have a forever purpose, not a forever fucking job, bitch. Like, but then it's a huge privilege because it's like okay well thank god i don't have to sell my life thank god i don't have to but a lot of people

won't because they're too scared and it's that same thing that we saw months ago i can't even remember where that was like the people who got what you wanted got it because they weren't scared when you were yeah you were too scared so someone else got it sorry like that's how the world works that you either get used to that and fight against that or you just sit back and be miserable people love to be miserable i think that's the thing and i live passively so much and it takes so much like fight against just letting life wash over you yeah it really does i think there's a whole thing that i've always tried to live by i think my dad told me this when i was really young but he was like smart people get paid for what they would

do for free and it's like that is mind change that is life changing like yeah we are coming from like massive privilege like to even have an education is a huge privilege and the fact that we've been to uni is insane like yeah it's not the norm to know that you can like we're born in england like there are we're white there are so many privileges that from being born are just thrown at us and we to most degree in your youth can just pick and choose between whatever might sound a little bit but also both of us have i mean we've all done some fucking shit jobs i've scraped some fucking scraps in my time you won't believe the scraps i've scraped you wouldn't believe guys i've got up at 2 a.m to go to work but it's just so just so happens that right now we're in the position where we're not having to scrape those scraps yeah but it doesn't just so

happen we fucking like had to fight against it it doesn't just so happen it's the fact that we went through that and we were like fuck no never again let's be real it did not just happen it has not just happened yeah no and I think that's part of the problem is because people think anything like new or these like neo careers is not hard working yeah well that's the thing that gets me because I've almost not lost friendships over this but I've kind of had major disagreements with my friends about this and people in my life about this the idea that it's not hard working but it's just kind of like I don't understand where your concept of hard work is because to me when I have worked hard in my life I've been the least

happy when I've worked hard for a purpose that I don't align with i.e for somebody else's company I've been so unhappy but now that I'm working for working really hard for something that is really fucking rewarding, I'm happy. It's just like, why is the measure of hard work suffering? Yeah, 100%. And I think it's also like,

I completely get it because I would find it really intimidating and it's uncomfortable to watch people kind of reach heights beyond not just what you thought they would, but like what you would want for yourself. I'm not saying we're like the poster people for like um the fucking like side hustles and money making

and careers or any any of that by far i'm anti hustling and money yeah i'm anti the idea of hustle for sure but i but we are pro like we're anti-capitalist 100 like through and through and it's it's almost like i'm a full-on communist communist but it's got to the point it's like yeah it's like glaringly i can't ignore it no i can't hide it that because it's fully disrupting my ability to do what everyone else wants me to do well it's that thing of i saw a thing that was like are you a good employee do you hate one do you hate your work yes two are you a good employee yes then what the fuck are you doing why are you a good why are you a pleasant um servant no but it's so tough to break out of because it's so i need the money yeah and it's yeah you you need to survive yeah so the only way you've been taught to survive is to be a servant

literally it's just interesting i think there's two sides of it on one side we're insanely privileged to not only be able to make this decision to do it but be to know that there is this decision to make because i think fourth class consciousness like most of us have no we're just happy to be where we are and would not even see ahead of us and think that it's an option to go there and then on the other side we've this isn't it's not necessarily an easy decision to make to reject everything you've ever been told I think it's been to be honest it's been one of the hardest decisions I've made because I think I always I don't know speaking myself kind of assumed throughout the whole of my childhood and all through school it's like okay well I'm just the person that will just fall naturally into just

like a really I'm just the kind of person that will just get a really high paying amazing job like that is exactly what I'll do I'll just I'm the person throughout school and everything that showed me I'm the person that will just get like a really good job but it's actually like coming out of uni it's like I don't actually want that and it kind of shifts your entire worldview it's like I actually don't want that. What I do want is my own. I want to do something that means something. Sorry. Oh, I was just here to take up space.

Okay. Like, sorry, I'm not happy with that. Well, we spoke about it the other day. It's like, I would be more than happy if it's just the title of professional feminist. Yeah, that's my dream. I'm going to push for that to be a like recognised profession by my dying day genuinely so the next question is a really good one is sex still rooted in the patriarchy bdsm as a normal kink in quotes

i have many many thoughts discuss 12 marks honestly 12 marks i loved a 12 marker um it's tough my first thing that my my mind goes to is choking as like a normal thing that exists and we went to see a talk that was about feminist sex i'm not going to say the exact name yeah i was gonna say i was just about to say it and then i thought oh yeah quite close to the name it was great it was really good i actually took a lot from it i actually really liked a lot of the people on the panel yeah the majority of the people on the panel we liked we liked all the people on the panel but in life not everyone says everything that you agree with exactly so there were some things that were said where someone said um there was like a q a from the audience and one of the audience well we we were quite shocked because this didn't come up at all

yeah so the the talk was advertised as like feminist sex like feminist sex blah blah blah like what it is how to what to etc and that was in no way brought up i was like i want answers what about choking like go on tell me about this like this is so interesting i would love to hear your thoughts then q a it never came up throughout the whole thing yeah we should have put our hand up really but the anxious reckon me didn't someone else did it for us yeah so someone put their hand up and said what about bdsm like i find that really empowering like what about that is that feminist and someone said on the panel said I think whatever you do in sex if you like it and it's it's empowering whatever you do get into it and me and Erin were talking

afterwards and I was saying I don't agree with that because what if me and my white boyfriend did blackface and like dressed up and it was like a crazy sort of thing that is not correct that is horrendously offensive and horrendously wrong so not everything you can do in sex if it's not harming either party is feminist is is progressive i don't agree with that yeah surely at some point we draw the line i could i was gobsmacked when you said that because it's the perfect example i remember thinking yeah and it's a horrific message to push it's like what so i can i can do anything right no boundaries i can do anything that's what you're saying as long as it's consensual it's fine it's like that isn't true that is not true also something we spoke about in the only fans episode was what can you really consent if you don't know what you're

consenting to or if you have little to no knowledge that's the thing that what you're participating in so like there's a difference between two educated like experienced adults consenting to something and potentially which i think is quite common a girl consenting to something that they don't that they think is normal so i.e choking or like being a bit like slapped around it's kind of violent yeah but literally violence because that is very normal in porn but that you're consenting to something that you believe is normal even if you don't enjoy it because you think that you should enjoy it if you're uneducated and you're particularly young and inexperienced so i think consent is really

interesting because it's like you can consent to something you can verbally consent to something without that like sitting right with you. Yeah, you can say yes to something and not mean it. Yeah. Easy. Exactly. Yeah, but it's an interesting thing. So in the feminist sex talk,

I think there were a lot of things that were said that I just completely, completely disagree with. And I think that BDSM in itself is not unfeminist it's not patriarchal but there are certain elements of it that are rooted in violence obviously that is it is rooted in violence so there are certain elements that can be picked out and I think should be examined yeah I think there are a lot of things that aren't inherently anti-feminist but many of them may have as you say elements that can be used by either the wrong person or for the wrong reasons so whilst bdsm can be great it isn't inherently bad but it could be bad and i think that also we

really loved the past yeah it was great like really amazing like we came away but i think some of the messaging in that talk and some of the messaging just in general discourse lacks the nuance as we discussed in the only fans because we almost want to we're so preoccupied with seeming sex positive and like being encouraging and being really enthusiastic and being super empowered, in quotation marks, that we avoid acknowledging the real risks. Yeah. And potentially your empowerment is performative because it's like you might say, oh, my God. Yeah, like I did like, I don't know, like, what would be like a... You've like never had sex before. I'm trying to think like, what's a BDSM thing, like handcuffs.

I think choking is a good one to say. It's like, oh my God, I love being choked. I love being choked. But it's like, okay, so do you love being choked because you like that sensation? Why do you love that? So do you love that because you think that your partner finds it hot? Do you like that sensation. Why do you love that? So do you love that because you think that your partner finds it hot? Do you like it because you've seen it in porn? And it's almost like we're so deep within the patriarchy and we've already seen so much porn where that happens and romance is coded as violent,

especially with now things like, even in the mainstream with like 50 Shades of Grey and stuff, it is so normal to be submissive, especially in sex and especially in like romance now that it's kind of like how do you know what is really your kink and what has been put onto you and isn't it convenient that is what's seen as a common female kink is or a desirable female yeah is being a little bit hurt and essentially beaten up it's like that's not really yeah it's very convenient considering the society we're in or it's like oh you thought that you could live and

function in a society that has completely thrown like kind of goo of the patriarchy all over you it's a big mess and you think you're gonna come out of it clean and tidy you're gonna have the messy is still in you yeah and it's nothing to do with the fact I'm oppressed in life. I just love, love, love when a man just like beats me up. I just love it. It's like, why do you think you love that? It's not your fault that you love that. It's great that you do love that. But it's very convenient that you love it.

I think some people do. I think it will occur often that a woman could enjoy all of these things and it could be like beside the patriarchy i completely agree well it's like um rape fantasies it's like rape i wrote quite a lot of this on uni it's like rape fantasies are very very very separate from rape i know a girl who did that with her boyfriend oh really it's very separate because there's also this whole thing with rape fantasies that's like it's very common within like christian communities because it allows a woman to have sexual feelings without having like blame and guilt about without being

shamed being like aroused so it's so it's so different from wanting to be raped which isn't a thing there is also some sort of you would i think be like naive to think that a man can participate in your quote-unquote fantasy by raping you and he will in no way be changed yeah by the behaviors that he just emulated that's crazy right so you're gonna say to someone rape me you knew a couple that fully did that yeah i know that i really don't judge anyone because also it's up to you whether you want to go investigating and where your beliefs and where your desires come from that's none of my business yeah also i don't know your history i don't know what you've been through like yeah yeah I don't know your life and I don't really care to to be honest um but I will talk about it on my podcast um I know a girl that said to her

boyfriend like rape me when I'm least expecting it like that's what I want you to do it's like when you're least expecting it that's not going to be when you think it is as well like that's going to be it's not going to be like god that's horrendous i couldn't imagine anything worse it's like i'm actually cooking something right now though like i'm in the middle of cooking my food i'm hungry that's horrific also it's like what like i'm in my car driving to work and you like jump out the back seat like it's a bit real god it's yeah it's it's triggering it's really the least um she so he like resisted for a while and then he did it and then they did it and like she was really happy with it but i i think anything with sex and i think what they were trying to get at in that talk is and i think it comes back to the thing that we said in that only fans episode which if you

haven't listened to you should but we have a huge like a big discussion about it and we go in on it yeah but i think it does come down to consent because and the way that we are talking about consent being educated consent as in as you said anyone can say yes to something but if you don't know what you're saying yes to or you don't really mean it or you're not quite sure or you don't know the history of what you're participating in if you're not making an informed decision yeah how much of that is your decision yeah so i think anyone who can understand all of that and as you say is like experienced or um like a consenting adult yeah also don't be fucking racist don't be doing blackface with your boyfriend like if you're consenting and all of these things then you can get up to what you want don't there's a line to be drawn when it comes to yeah i do i do

think so because it's like so the message of this thing was whatever two consenting adults do is fine and it's like no because there is a societal impact and you are engaging with really really horrific um ideologies don't tell me that you were not saying the n-word and like blah blah it's like we know that you're going to be using horrific discourse well when so much of sex when so much of sex is wrapped up in like a taboo and like stigma and shamed desires yeah when also we're indoctrinating a society that encourages like racism homophobia um violence obviously those things are going to connect so it's incredibly naive to stand on a big old stage and say whatever you want to do as long as you're you know as long as you're

consenting that's fine it's like well i can only imagine what adolf hitler was getting up to in bed and i can only imagine what donald trump is getting to and I don't need to ask. Eva Braun is not looking so good like it's literally don't do that and it's like it's not you can just explore what you want it's like no you can't literally no you can't. No you can't and what's more important than missing out on doing that is understanding from where it comes from and why you would want to do that exactly but all sex is not rooted in the patriarchy i think that's interesting that she said is all sex rooted in the patriarchy okay so let's talk about that okay should we answer the question then just bear with us um but i thought that was interesting because it's like, that shows how society has framed

sex as a masculine act. Because sex, the actual act of sex, is not patriarchal. But I did read a really interesting thing that was like, the female actual sexual organ is the clit. So if you are having penetrative sex and the clit is not involved, you are not actually having sex because sex is... That viral video of that woman. Yeah, that woman. I think I also read it in a thing. Yeah. sex and the clit is not involved you are not actually having sex because sex is that viral video of that woman yeah that that woman i think i also read it in a thing yeah um but i thought

that was interesting because it's like well okay so how we view sex is i.e penetrative sex is somewhat rooted in the patriarchy because it's very normal for a man to orgasm and a woman not to so that is very rooted in patriarchy but the actual act of sex itself biologically obviously is not patriarchal but how we have framed it is definitely definitely undeniably through a male lens yeah and through a completely heteronormative lens just in the way that we understand sex to be one way penis and vagina yes man comes everywhere the end not the case for yeah woman lies there hand like her neck still got a mark around yeah getting beaten up i think in my like experience like in my small sample size of like the community that i'm in and like the stuff that i've overseen uh sex is patriarchal for most people like most of the girls

that i know will take part in patriarchal sex and kind of not even question i agree but that i think that's because we are so deep in this system where you can't even recognize what is romantic because what's being coded as romantic is like jealousy violence um kind of possession yeah so yeah literally bubble spray um but it's so difficult to know what you what you like as like your animal primal being and what you've been told because you watched twilight and you saw edward and jacob get jealous over bella yeah do you have feminist sex do i yeah i think i'm moving towards more feminist yeah what's hanging on still the desire to like kind of facilitate somebody else well also just like I think I definitely definitely have like faked orgasms a lot like in the sense of like yeah literally my family home I'm like is anyone

walking up the stairs the shame um but I think that has that is so normalized so so so normalized and also it's almost like I have cared so much about the male ego that I'm willing just to completely forfeit my own enjoyment and just completely um indulge them and just let and just be like it doesn't really matter let's just get through this and make them feel good like whatever but it's just like actually that is horrendously horrendously patriarchal and so normal and it is kind of what you're expected to do well I think for most people yeah I think for most people it's not even a conscious thing it definitely wasn't conscious when I was younger it's just so natural that um he comes before you not even c-u-m-c-o-m-e's not even before it's like you know he just he is just placed before

you it's like you don't at all it's it's like your pleasure is just not important in this in this realm he's wanking yeah um definitely in younger times but i think as I am moving forward I have noticed certain shifts I'm so much more community communicative than I used to be but then it's so different with girls as in when I'm going on dates with girls and seeing girls it's like there is no room for patriarchy because the male presence is evaporated it's literally gone nowhere to be seen thank god and it's so refreshing because it's literally like there is no room for that they understand a female body you understand a female body and it's different so i think as i am moving as a person making moves making money moves i am just moving so far away from the old image of the

patriarchal sex I used to have and moving into a new more a version I'm happier with yeah I also think it pulls back to what we said at the beginning about dating down and like just the fact that everything changes when you respect yourself as much as you would so readily respect somebody else everything changes when you consider yourself someone much as you would so readily respect somebody else everything changes when you consider yourself someone worthy of like good things literally everything everything changes how crazy is that i think it's so difficult as women to even realize that you have something to offer and i think when you realize it's something like, oh, wait, like, I'm actually not even okay, not even a bit alright. Like, I'm actually very amazing.

It's suddenly like this whole switch happens and you're like, shit, and the fucking walls crumble down. But it's so foreign to literally like every girl I know. I think me at 14, I would have laughed someone out of town for saying that I would have cringed my head off I would have absolutely cringed at the thought but I still know people that would cringe at saying that yeah do you remember that we wrote a list on our wall oh yeah this is how weird it would be to live with me and Erin we're a bit crazy but we made this huge huge huge poster it was kind of the most central thing in the room like forget the tv like forget the dining table like it was it was this huge poster and we used

to say if anyone came in you had to take part yeah i made someone like essentially on who was coming back to my house right on it like quite it was quite like a thing so it's like a little vision board yeah we made a collaborative vision board. Yeah, we made it... Collaborative. Collaborative vision board of every... With us and guests. Us and guests. And we made everyone write down one thing they liked about themselves. This is... It would be hard work to live with us. Honestly.

It's... We're doing the work. Yeah, we are doing the work and we're making everyone else do it daily. So I think people struggled and I think we definitely looked like lunatics for doing that. We did.

People even refused. They would... So we had other things on there, like kind of um who's your biggest priestess we're still using our terminology we're branding up the house guys oh my god it's so good but people would answer everything else and then get to that get to that part and be like oh i'm not doing that one it's like you can't think of one single thing that you're gonna declare to the group that you like about yourself literally i wrote about 10 things i remember being like so you only said i put so many things that i remember people being like you only said one thing because i remember putting like my energy and my humor and my passion like i just said like i can't choose it was like um yeah it's just sort of like what people can i always think of that thing though that is

like you wouldn't talk to your best friend how you talk to yourself so why do you fucking do it it's so true if i hear my best friend saying something that they don't like about themselves i start crying i start crying because i'm so upset that that someone would say that to them i themselves because like how dare you because remember when we watch book smart and it's some the girl and it says something rude about herself and she's like don't you talk about my best friend like that and it's like yeah it's so stunning stunning film it's kind of like i'm honestly shivering me timbers it's too much i think we're done here yeah same i think that was really nice and really fun okay cool we've got some quite deep topics coming up tell us do you prefer when we're like deep and angry

and like aggressive and like fingers crossed or do you feel like kind of or like do you like us and you want us to just have a good time and you want like light fluffy like cute content like today i'm hoping you want like to just have a good time. And you want like light, fluffy, like cute content like today. I'm hoping you want like funny, like cartoon analysis, like fun stuff. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed anyway. If you have enjoyed this episode and enjoyed us being quite crass about sex and dating and kind of self-respect, a bit triggering, but very useful.

As I say, we're doing the work. Then you should think about reading validating. Chances are you're quarantined right now. It's perfect for your quarantine reading list. Couldn't recommend it enough. My friends were like, can you send that to me? Can you send me validating? What are you, an influencer?

Thank you, next. But also it's like, I'm'm really sorry but if i send it to you you will break up with your boyfriend because he is the definition of scrappy do so i can't do it to you because you'll have to just like your world will change if you read it so you're not ready for your life it's like i'm actually gonna have to withhold some information from you because you will have to sell your house you're not in a position to receive information that could potentially harm you yeah so if you are not that friend and you're not in a position to receive information that could potentially harm you so if you are not that friend and you're really cool and you can if you're putting in the work and you're ready to hear it even though it hurts to hear it yeah but you come out the other end

like whoa liberating my life yeah you're not saying settling for scrap we do after that oh we cover it all we really do yes it's. It's a good old read. Right, well, thanks so much, guys. You guys. Thanks, Persephone, for joining me. Thanks, Wing. See you later. See you later, bye. Bye.

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