Goes Without Saying - bodies, restriction & veganism: podmas #8

Episode Date: December 20, 2022

on the 8th day of podmas sephy & wing gave to me... honesty on eating disorders, self-deprecating mindsets, ethics, morality and the cultural significance of food freedom. join the conversation every monday.shop our merch: sephyandwing.co.ukcome and chat in our book club.speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Here's a show that we recommend. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world.

The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Right, can't be worse than yesterday's one where I said, I'm gonna burp. And you said, I just burped. I just burped.

I was really regretting that actually when I was listening back. I was like, did we have to start it like that? Do you know what? Sometimes I think it's embarrassing. Like, i don't mind a gross thing being like at the end no but it's right almost like that's when people that we don't know like oh i listened to a bit of your podcast like i know you listened to the first minute it's so bad it's like can't we just put that in later i know stuff it in the back anyway podmas podmas on the eighth day of podmas god she's nearly over i honestly i think when gave to me the greatest gift of all time

i think we gave ourselves the best structure yeah it's been i'm really enjoying this structure nice to check in every day actually not that we don't already but yeah it's really nice because there's no it's almost like when it's a week it's like right okay i've got an update on that thing or i want to say that thing and then it just ends up being a bit like a bit of a mess it's a bit of a desperado energy you're coming in with yeah complete shambles actually this it's like yes i've got nothing nothing to say i'm just here for the vibe yeah see you again tomorrow like almost well if this fucks up i've only got to wait to fuck it up again yeah it's also been really really nice that it's been really well received

and like everyone's been really lovely it's yeah it's actually it's actually rearranging my brain cells i think i was saying just when we were in our kind of pre-recording chat i had a moment last night when i was kind of lying in bed and i started kind of giggling to myself like what the how can you not giggle but i i've only ever had like there are so many moments where i think wow this is amazing but the moment where you kind of feel it and it all kind of washes over if you're like what the hell we've got a podcast like we also was just talking about we're about to hit two million downloads yeah which is insane which is yeah insane um and i just had that moment last night where yeah i've only had a few

of them before where like you almost feel it in like a really surreal way of like that is objectively something i would have wanted a lot like a few years ago and now we have it so fucking congratulations congratulations on the podmas and thank you guys and congratulations on your podmas as well thank you so much everyone for letting us do this weird thing we're doing a bit of a weird one today yeah we didn't like think we were going to do this and then all of a sudden i was like let's do veganism yeah you're happy to i'm ready to talk about it yeah all right um how do we start this very sensitive how do we start about what do you want to talk about you you were the first to go was it I am still vegan but go on you are yeah you say yours mine is um well I just didn't want to be vegan anymore to be honest what happened was what was the catalyst yeah um well here's the thing guys so i went vegan i'd eaten meat and i was never fussy like

i would eat everything in abundance i was actually thinking this the other day when we were talking about things that we were happy that our parents gave to us that we would like to carry on for our kids i was thinking of one after we'd recorded which was that is always the way which is always the way which is that i was thinking i feel really lucky in the way that my parents and my nan and just all the adults around me really raised me with a very healthy um just like a nice view of food like i grew up with a really really do have that yeah really luxurious relationship with food and i as i'm getting older i'm realizing unfortunately how rare that is for a young girl

to grow up with genuinely like freedom it's so nice to be around you like because you do you know you do have like oh that's actually because you eat lots that's really nice no it's really like i think it's the in loads of ways the perfect person i could be around like so many times i'm around people i'm like god i can't be around you anymore like you just didn't have that slice of cake that you wanted but you are gonna have the slice of cake and some and then i'm gonna complain and it's so nice to be around you but i always think that when i do you know what i actually think it about you and your boyfriend what that we go in well like almost when i came to your house kind of recently yeah i think your boyfriend said i don't want to order one pizza because i know i'll order two and i thought i

fucking love that he's exposed and i think i just find it quite refreshing because it's so easy to get into the way of like i won't have any pieces limitation yeah it's shit yeah but you do have an abundant attitude to food which is the best attitude to food i just feel i've just always grew up feeling very free around food like if i wanted something i would eat it if i didn't i wouldn't and there was kind of um relatively no questions asked like occasionally my parents would do the whole there are children starving you should finish your meal sort of thing but beyond that i felt free to eat whatever i want and that's actually part of the reason why i feel like veganism has come to a close to me for me recently that's not to say that i won't go back to veganism ever in my life like whatever i feel quite fluid about things and i think i'm trying to return to a more fluid way

of looking at what i eat but i feel like veganism i i kind of noticed i had a bit of a sad realization where i was thinking about how my attitude to food had changed um and there are there are a few things so like obviously i grew up eating meat i grew up eating everything and part of it i think a bigger part of it than i maybe realized at the time was how sad it was for me to be missing out on like cultural food like i grew up eating like a lot of like fine i could still eat hummus big deal but like i was missing out on like just cultural food that i wanted to eat stuff that i grew up eating and i think kind of what we were saying in the other episode about as i'm getting older i'm trying to go back to things that made me happy

as a child and that make me feel connected to who i am and it's like yeah turning down like baklava that like my nan has like slaved over a thing it's like why can i do like i actually think that it's so good and it's it's really like it's not about oh it's a love language like it is the soul language of love in my family in that way and it just feels almost quite insulting that i like denied her of feeding me um so it's a cultural element like why am i at a barbecue and god bless them they're feeding me falafels when i'm honestly trying to sniff at the lamb like it's actually it's a disaster it's a catastrophe so there was that there was that element where i was kind of thinking i grew up

on all of these foods and they're actually important to me on a soul level and then i'd always said i'm i'm eating vegan at the moment because i don't want to eat animal products if i wanted to eat them i would eat them like kind of yeah when i look at um a steak it's like that's not like i'm looking at food anymore it's like i'm looking at just like a like a like a shoe yeah yeah or a shit not even a shit because it's like i'm not repulsed like i would put i would have as a vegan i would have put a steak in my mouth a lot sooner than i would have put a pile of shit in my mouth for sure see i think to me it's almost it's on par with the shit a steak is on par with the shit like it's just not like i wouldn't be running to put a shoe in my mouth but like it is what it is

but you're not going to be sick of shit on you no and i wasn't well i would have been annoyed about it because i didn't want to eat it but i always when people would be like oh sorry like i'm eating this in front of you you can't eat it i would always be like no don't feel bad because i want you to enjoy it and i if i wanted it i would have it so then i kind of started to feel like hmm am i starting to want it and if i did want it would i feel comfortable to have it then the fine the third and final nail in the coffin i think nail in the car yeah was that i started to think about how i had kind of adopted this mindset of being in a restaurant or like i keep using the example of like being at pret and getting a coffee a shitty little coffee and looking at all of the pastries and knowing that largely none of them are

for me and yeah slowly learning that when i go into obviously like there's an abundance of vegan um options in the world and especially in brighton but there's still as you're going between one or two options on a menu of 30 exactly yeah it's much more limited mostly unless you're going to like a vegan or vegetarian restaurant the world largely is catered to animal products and that diet and so i think i realized that i had got myself into a bit of a mindset that felt a bit unfamiliar to me which was like going to a restaurant with friends and family and being like oh i i can just like put a few sides together or like you know don't worry about me i'll just have chips oh they've got one option i've never really liked that before but i guess i'll have that tonight since it's the only thing like and i've always been vegetable skewers exactly it's like i don't want i've always been someone who's not fussy with food so i am happy like i'm not

fussy there aren't a lot of things that i dislike so i'm happy to try anything like i largely if there's a vegan option i probably will like like it. Like it is what it is. But I don't, I think I kind of realised that I wanted to just have a bit of space from feeling like my desires weren't important. And that, you know, indulging myself isn't important or like, because I do think there's a huge part of it. And something that I really, really believe in

is that as a society well not wholly but like a large majority of us in the western world like in the capitalist world are so everything's so fast paced and we're so disconnected and all of this shit and i feel like a big part of that is that everything's like instant like you need it now i needed it yesterday like it's like i want it and i will get it right away and i think a part of that is really dangerous and it kind of teaches a bit of a i think in some ways you can kind of easily slip into like a superiority complex or like um entitled kind of behaviors in feeling like oh i i should have that just because i want it in a fleeting moment regardless of the negative impacts that it might have for others. And I believe that 100%. And I think that goes not

just across food, but I think maybe more importantly, like just the consumerist mindset that we have about like, fashion and just product, just everything. And I believe that 100%. But I also think both things can be true that I can identify that just because I want something in a fleeting moment doesn't mean I have to get it. Of course, I don't think I've ever really believed that. But I also and I think it's important for us to challenge that mindset as much as possible in this like Amazon world that we're living in. Yeah. But I also think I want to walk into Pret and think hmm what do i want like out of this selection what would i choose not just what is the one option that i could have what do i actually

want like what is actually gonna feed me right now and guys i'm not just the weird lemon cake it's like i moan out loud when i eat at the moment like i haven't stopped feeling so overwhelmingly good by eating stuff that isn't vegan so i feel good that's that's my journey and i also think i was vegan for four years just cold turkey from eating like a very meat heavy and animal product heavy diet my whole life to then switching to veganism basically overnight and dedicating four years to it i did that because i believed in it and because i believed in it for society and for the world and for the animal and all of the reasons and you can't take that away from me like i think even though i i'm not going to do that right now i still think it was a really lovely choice that

i made and i think it was a nice um kind of it was a nice display of my efforts you know of my beliefs at the time but I don't think that's the way for me right now and that is to be honest quite stunning yeah what about you weary Wendy's small frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment and not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. It's so gay. These r got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this?

I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer. And we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Mine's got a a lot more guilt a lot more shame i think take off that guilt and shame i don't want her here she's got no space well no there's actually not yeah mine i think is mine's mine feels a lot a bit deeper like it's almost i've been crucial context is i've been vegetarian since i think i was like yeah um and i don't really ever remember eating meat i think i ate can remember eating salami oh my god kind of remember having a bite of someone's sausage roll like in year six i mean like like meat has always been shit to me off the table that's been propagandized since i was four to like think meat is evil and bad and all of

these things then i went vegan i think i've been nearly vegan for 10 years now which is absolutely bonkers yeah 10 yeah i'm 26 in a few days yeah yeah i've been vegan for nearly 10 years which is absolutely mad yeah i have never questioned it it has always been a thing that's like this is what i do and it was very much a decision like i watched a documentary called vegicated about like animals and you see like horrific things of like cows getting boiled alive and all of this stuff and it was like a very emotional decision because I've had the years of like I'm a vegetarian I'm someone that cares about animals and this stuff kind of in my head and also the superiority thing of like I can restrict this stuff and that means means therefore. I'm better. Kind of. I think I was believing. Yeah I'm a better person.

I'm more good. And I had attached my. And I still have completely attached. My morality to my diet. Which is fucked. Very dangerous. Well yeah. It's massively dangerous.

And I think I got to a point. So basically my sister has also been vegan for 10 years. Because I pretty much forced her essentially. I was like. I would guilt her all the time. and she said that she remembered me like she would drink like milk out of the fridge and i'd be like murder milk murder milk all of this stuff which is insane i was 16 so it is mad but honestly like she was basically saying your eating disorder then was brushed onto me and she has had a healthy attitude towards food and she had kind of attached

it to this morality thing as well and her talking about it we had this huge conversation about it and it was like this is so interesting because how did that make you feel well guilt completely guilty like it's like god i took i pretty much completely projected my own issues with food onto someone else it's completely fucked because also when i think about my anger towards the youtubers that i was watching at that time that completely indoctrinated me in something in yeah into thinking like if anyone remembers fucking like freely the fucking banana girl bonnie rebecca yeah i hear she's great now but i i mean yeah i would be i think quite triggered watching her

again even though i'm sure she's literally the best but i was eating a fucking half a watermelon a day because of this girl and asena o'neill all of this stuff like these were girls with eating disorders in their own fucking right but they were then also making videos telling other people to fucking eat pretty much nothing and giving you instructions dangerous and evil and all this stuff and as a 16 year old girl that looked up to these stunning girls yeah i completely bought into it in every way yeah even though that these girls had their fucking own shit going on of course so there's kind of two things that seem to be happening there there's like a like a diet body restriction vibe and also a morality ethics i think they were tied though i think veganism was for me always an eating

eating well i think i'm coming to the realization that my absolute like adamant veganism was an eating disorder disguised as yeah i can restrict and therefore i'm better than you and all of this stuff um and if i just get thinner by by doing this that's a that's a bonus but actually that's kind of the driving force and also then this huge thing of like an emotional attachment to like cows and pigs and all of this stuff like like all of this stuff that i still completely have deep in my fucking core yeah i've had it since i was and also like also animals being killed is not nice well also i do genuinely believe that eating meat is wrong i do think it is a wrong thing to do in the way that i think that fucking a seven-year-old buying a seven-year-old making my clothes in a

sweatshop is wrong but i still buy fast fashion and then i kind of had this whole conversation with my sister and she was like i ate a birth a bit of birthday cake the other day and oh my god that the idea we were just having this kind of laugh and we were like can you do that can we do that can you buy can you like buy a chocolate bar could we eat it and it was the weirdest thing and we went to selfridges yeah i never really go to selfridges well it's headache inducing we discussed after i was ill for about two days with a headache we went to selfridges because also i couldn't stop smelling the perfumes they were so delicious for me it's everything and it's just you know when i was saying this earlier you know when

you're going into shops and it's like you're getting hotter and hotter especially in the festive season starting to hurt your hair's kind of like almost like sticking to your neck bags getting heavier it's like your earrings are pulling oh jesus god no way your makeup's taking it's just get me out of here and you've like inhaled like 1200 perfumes deeply as well as deeply inhaling them yeah i asked the shop assistant to like bring more out i was like i was like more of this there was one apparently that smelled like rain and i just oh yeah i remember you saying that i was searching the stock for it and it was divine my sister bought a croissant from the selfridges thing and life of luxury i could not believe that she ate it

and it was one of these things it's like what do you mean you don't have to look for this like vg whatever like marking is on it like what do you mean you just bought a croissant and you ate it and I was like I think I want to have a chocolate macaroon so good I know they sell amazing macaroons and then I've always known that I've always said in my life the things that I want to have again I want to have a macaroon again before I die and I want to try oysters in my life I just think it suits my personality so why if you thought you wanted to I just thought almost before I die I'm gonna have an oyster right and why not now because I have because it's a complete eating disorder put into this fucking morality bullshit but then i think i

was thinking if i'm i don't think i have an eating disorder anymore i i'm trying to move past all of this fucking shit this body fucking shit i'm trying to move past why am i still living my life based on a decision i made when i was 16 and i had a fucked up attitude towards food then i wouldn't eat i've come so far since then why am I still living in this way that that girl made that decision? I don't live in so many ways that she decides it. Almost unconsciously. Because I think, yeah, it's habit. Because I think as well, I would often reflect on my veganism.

I would often joke about like, guys, like order a steak for me. Like get some ribs. Like eat them for me. Like, do you know what I mean? I'm there in spirit sort of thing. But I always felt comfortable with the fact that I didn't want to eat it until i didn't until i did want to eat it do you know what i mean and i think when you are living even like anything that is long term our friendship any across across everything in your life your job you've been in the same job for five years how do you feel about that like i think anything that you are still doing off the back of a decision

that you made when you're really a different person it's just good to check in and take stock of that i think that's it and also my reaction so to eating the macaroon just confirmed everything for me like i i bought this macaroon which was a huge fucking decision for me to do two pound fifty for a macaroon it's gotta be fucking great it's extortion um is it literally the most congratulations on the podcast i've ever bought in my life i was walking around like i genuinely like the way i was describing it sounds so dramatic it's gonna stop you i felt like i was holding a grenade i felt like the police were gonna jump on me and be like you can't eat that that's an illegal object i felt like it was actually illegal and wrong and that there's no i had no right to it and it took me about fucking half an hour like most boring

fucking half an hour of my sister's life walking around with this fucking selfishness with me holding a macaroon like freaking out i bit into it and i'm not even joking immediately I just felt this huge relief and I just immediately started crying I looked absolutely insane yeah I don't know what I must have looked like but it was literally like it just felt like such a fuck you to all of the years of restriction all of the years of being like you can't eat this because you need to be thinner essentially you can't eat this because you have to be good and perfect and all of these things and a good little girl that doesn't eat um milk because a cow somewhere was hurt by it um and I genuinely in those moments in that moment I was thinking about all these YouTube videos that I used to watch and like how much I wanted to be like this skinny

little Australian girl and actually it's like it just felt like such a fuck you to like that mindset of like no you don't need to fucking feel such a level of guilt over consuming something that has a bit of egg white in it but like i genuinely couldn't believe i did it like it was it i can't even explain how deep that decision felt to eat that macaroon with the first bite and it took i ate it in three bites and the second two second bite third bite like weren't a thing the first bite was just so overwhelming and i was like actually you know what it's not that fucking deep and i wasn't blown away by the macaroon i've had nicer vegan macaroons in fact but i've made a few i've had a few non-vegan things since like i had some quality street the other day that my friend gave my other friend and i thought you know what i like to be

able to share these things with my friends sometimes that's the thing there's a huge social component to it isn't there i think as well like just what you were saying then about not having milk like for example not having milk because um well for a multitude of reasons but the convenient one to attach to is oh because it has hurt a cow but actually i think sometimes that masks over maybe the other reasons why you're actually not eating it is a mask well in the same way that why i bring up a seven-year-old making oh sorry a seven-year-old making my jumper in a um sweatshop is because when i'm buying that jumper from asos there's no there's probably more harm being done or just as much harm being done to a human being which is objectively to me a lot that life is worth more than a fucking pig or whatever.

But I am still making that decision, to be honest, with little identity going into that. But so much identity that goes into this decision of like, do you eat cheese? If you eat cheese, then you are bad. This is for me. If I eat cheese, then I am bad and fat and all of these things that I've been told I can't be.

But if I do, if I can restrict the cheese, then I am a good vegan girl and all of this stuff and i'm closer to being this thing that my 16 year old self wanted me to be this word restriction you keep saying do you did you do you have you felt no i never felt restricted but but now you identify i know i didn't feel it i mean it has to be i think this is the first time in my life also this was a decision i made not even a month ago so it's incredibly fresh i've only had like four non-vegan things chop us up and each one i've done it is this is yeah but no i never felt restricted but i think my reaction to eating that one bite of the macaroon and like how kind of defiant i felt doing that showed me showed me

like a hundred times over that had to be restriction then because i'm not crying over a guilt or any of this i'm crying out of a relief yes it felt like you're breaking the curse yeah it was like you're having the shrek and fiona moment where you go up in the sky and the gold it was just almost like um i cracked the code like almost what do you mean i could buy a macaroon that doesn't say vegan and i could put that in my mouth i never knew i could genuinely as weird as that sounds i didn't think that was a thing i could do that wasn't like an option that was like those are for other people and these things that have this vg sticker on those are things for me and now it feels like the idea that like i'm going for dinner tonight with my friend

she's getting here in a few hours actually actually an hour fuck hurry up um the idea that i could eat anything on the menu like i'm i'm gonna have a vegan burger of course yeah you're just not getting like the idea that like the idea that i could you can get anything you want it's so liberating like even though i make the decision even if i make the decision yeah i want to be vegan for the rest of my life i never eat anything ever anything not vegan again whatever to have that moment of like realization you don't have to do this yeah like your goodness your worth your attractiveness is not dependent on whether you don't eat don't put these things in your mouth is literally insane to me like i didn't know that a few months ago at all

did you think you knew it though i think i was like i do that this is just me this is my identity this is what i do i believe in this stuff and i do believe in it yeah but i also believe in a load of shit and i do the opposite shit every day i believe you shouldn't be a bitch every day but yeah here we are yeah like i believe so many things i think it's also it's just it's worth considering like if you're someone somebody who eats loads of meat and all of this shit and blah blah blah it's worth thinking about if you want to do that moving forward do you know i mean like i also think something that is really important is that i just think food and diet is actually one of the most personal intimate unique things that you have to you like everyone i don't know what your parents fed you

at two years old it's none of my beeswax do you know what i mean like and our bodies in the way that it's like you might have an allergy that i don't our bodies are physically different as well like it's not it's not it's so emotional but it's also not just emotional it's biological it is also biological i just think it's so interesting but i'm very proud of you for exploring thoughts same i it's really a thought that i thought i had come to a conclusion with like that you defy thought of everything and you've decided that vegan is the is the answer is the only way yeah and it has just been massive to challenge it and also i think my my bottom line for me and veganism is i think my biggest thing was just like i don't think i'm someone yeah that can have restrictions on my diet yeah i just don't think i am in a position right now if i'm trying

to move away from a load of bollocks i think the worst thing i could have is restrictions on diet you know what that is so interesting because and i also think actually my bottom line was if i'm in a space in my life where i'm trying my hardest to not to move away from people pleasing and charlie bucketing myself yeah if i'm trying to really move away from kind of oh i can just have the bare minimum and i'll sacrifice myself and you guys can have it yeah it's like no i'm really trying to consciously make an effort to honor myself i want to move that across everything and that means eating nana's food and going for barbecue and having god knows what i completely

agree also like that's it sorry i think that's one of the things that i was talking about with my sister is that what's the word i was really trying what's the word for someone that really loves kind of the pleasure of life like hedonistic hedonistic and you are the biggest hedonist i've ever met i'm a massive hedonist yes and my sister is also that and i was like we are not people that restrict in any way like we're quite indulgent it's almost like yeah i think i almost i like the thing of like i want the funny things club and why would it ever restrict that where would it ever limit yeah so almost why when it comes to food bit of a coincidence isn't it when it comes to food and body and all of these things that i'm like oh well i've got to be like kind of i can only have certain things it's like you don't do that with

anything else what the fuck is going on it's a bit obvious what's going on i also remember a scary moment with you this is actually this is funny to think about this is when we first started the first iteration of like this podcast and all of that yeah and we were having a conversation about all of the shit i guess um and i remember it was when well i wasn't gonna say the bit about raw tilt for do you remember that yeah yeah i thought you were gonna say this yeah you can say um and you were like i think it was like we were eating we were eating we probably were eating but we were listing shit diet yeah like diets it was there was some eating we were eating we probably were eating but we were listing shit diet yeah like diets it was there were some women on the beach yeah do you remember there were some

women on the beach and they were saying so i'm just not eating any carbs after like 10 i'm not like they were just saying like oh yes i'm on atkins so we came home and we were like let's do a post on diet culture and we were like listing all of like kind of quote unquote diets that were sold and i was like oh raw till four and stuff was like no no that's not a diet that's like a vegan thing i did that and i was like i did it for ages that is a diet of course it is like of course it is and i remember us talking actually about veganism and the whole kind of world i don't know if you want this in and and i had said um stuff about like oh i'm like if vegan like what would what would stop you being vegan like if it was like something about your fertility and things

like that and and we spoke about like if it changed the way your body looked like yeah i think it was if i gained weight i think i would stop which is i mean there we fucking go that is blazingly obvious in my own words five years ago yeah why i was like or a huge component of what i'm doing yeah which is fucking like this is why it feels completely massive and it feels so deep and all this stuff because it also is attached to just like my entire life like literally from age four from like animals are your fucking friends all this shit then how could i possibly eat that milk but then it's like look you're not in a if you're saying shit like this raw till four is not a diet and you're there

sorry benny bonnie rebecca but you made me half a watermelon for breakfast every day love you but like i did that yeah so you're not in a position to fucking think about cows right now you've got to eat a fucking quality street which i did do i had three to be continued i can't wait to hear the updates and um i'm just happy for this conversation i think it's interesting and i think i know you were saying before i don't want it to be that we make people not want to be vegan and stuff and i think it's really important that everyone just makes their own educated decisions and i think just always i think our sentiment across every topic is always do what's best for you and keep yourself safe and happy always so always yeah that said well

congratulations on the podcast let's go have a chocolate macaron and celebrate Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet.