Goes Without Saying - catfishing and misogyny: see also, 'instagram vs reality'

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

we're calling nev and max to reverse image search the hell out of your crazy catfish stories. we're talking all things catfishing, social media, and online relationships. join us (sephy & wing) in this episode of Goes Without Saying, as we explore how feminism and the patriarchy intersect with the idea of 'catfishing'. from flattering tinder profiles to sexist tweets, join us as we explore love, lies and loss in the age of social media. speak your mind on our instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey! Hey! How are you? I'm good, how are you? Oh, I'm great, I'm very excited. Me too. Are we going to talk about catfishing? I think we should, considering we've planned a ho-ep. Considering we've been talking already for about 40 minutes about catfishing. I think we should do that, yeah. I think we should talk about catfishing. So, first of all, what have you been up to? What's been going on for you? Oh, honourable quarantine mentions. Always. After all this time, always. Oh, well, I don't know where to begin. I've been getting absolutely fumigated every day. Go on. I love it. Well, just everything is so frustrating. And I'm sure you all agree already without me even speaking are you talking specifically about Boris Johnson because I'm fumed at that yeah I mean I'm talking vaguely about Boris Johnson I guess I'm talking vaguely about that whole thing that I just despise basically the fact that we're all allowed out of quarantine now despite the death toll being at

what 40,000 now that's what i'm talking about anyway shakes head shakes head shakes head big time that's what i'm talking about what are your honorable quarantine mentions so much has happened you bleached your hair for one i met my spirit guide i bleached my hair i've met my spirit guide um two equally exciting events i can't believe it what happened so first of all i bleached my hair i've become an e-girl. I've done it. Not the front two bits, kind of. The entire bottom layer, the under layer of my hair. Stunning.

Bleached within an inch of its life. It really is. Gone. Done and dusted. Bleach peroxide blonde. And my spirit, well, I actually met my spirit guide. My spirit guide. Sharp transition to my spirit guide.

I was saying to my family, it's like when you can't meet anyone else in quarantine, you need to go and meet your spirit guide sharp transition to my spirit guide I was saying to my family it's like when you can't meet anyone else in quarantine you need to go and meet your spirit guide literally that so I met my spirit guide guys um so I did a big meditation and I was like I'm gonna meet my spirit guide now some for some reason said if my spirit guide is here make yourself known show yourself and they did quite an embarrassing thing to say in your own head a socially distanced yeah way i would hope yeah two meters apart i said come and make yourself known but do remain a two meter distance and i'm gonna wash my hands afterwards um and i was wearing a mask and what did appear in my mind

but a giant peacock so that's my spirit guide so stunning do we know the name of the peacock no thing is I think he got a bit shy because I wanted to ask more details and stuff but very quickly the peacock ran away

you don't want to push I couldn't push my spirit guide but then I said I can't basically we've gone insane but well i don't know i'm dragging you into this i've gone insane but then i said if this is real this is when it gets really mad okay this is this is when it oh this is when it goes from mad to mad you were trying to kind of trick you were trying to kind of call out your peacock's bluff yeah i was like so if that so I was kind of coming out of meditation I was like okay that was could have just been my mind seeing a big peacock it could

have been many things other than a giant peacock that makes decisions for my life being one of the least likely outcomes of that situation yeah so I said if that is real if you really are my spirit guide or one of my spirit guide because we've met some tarot readers who say that we have they think yours is jacob from twilight for example they really do and i would like to see it yeah erin's spirit guide is kind of literally jacob and mine's apparently a white horse but this peacock just um has that says otherwise well you can have more than one that's that's a fact apparently that's just a known thing because i feel bad for the white horse i'm like the peacock yeah so i said to the peacock

i said to the peacock in my mind's eye if you are real bring me a white cat in the next few days yeah because i know all the cats in this area very intimately i know the cats intimately and it's not single okay shane dawson i actually do know them intimately i know them all by name so I thought okay if you bring me a white cat I'll know that peacock's not messing around so I'm still looking out for a white cat oh okay right but then I started to go a bit mad because I was on TikTok as I do clearly my hair's bleached I've been on TikTok we know what's going on here and you saw a white cat next thing that shows up my thing a white cat literally a whole TikTok dedicated to a white cat and I was like that's a bit weird because i never see things like but then i was also like come on now you're going mad i mean if a white cat's gonna be anywhere it would be on tiktok wouldn't it but also it's

like that's kind of taking the piss for that from that peacock because it's like i asked for a real life white cat you bring me a virtual white cat and you bring me a tiktok that that peacock's pissing me about if it's doing some shit like that i said initially you should have brought you should have asked for something more exciting like a switch only i was clever enough you should have asked for like a monetary prize oh yeah bring me a thousand pounds peacock if you're so real if you're so real you're so clever bring me a brand new sports car but it's like i asked for a white cat i was like what do i not know what do i not see i don't know white cats bring me a white cat also just quite quite spooky but so suddenly since the last time i spoke to you i've got quite a lot of animals

going on i've got a peacock and a white cat that both have like yeah you're joe exotic honestly so that's what's been going on in my life so i love it it's either going well or going really badly to be determined we need updates on on the white cat i'm happy with the virtual one but i'd be very impressed i'm not happy with kind of you leave your bedroom right now and there's a little white cat knocking on that's what i'm asking for if the peacock wasn't clear yeah or kind of like pairinging around your window. Exactly. I'm not asking to swipe up to see a fucking TikTok cat. I'm asking for a pure white kitten.

Maybe I should have specified to the peacock, I want a real life cat. Stunning. And what does the peacock represent? Oh, so I was Googling its arse off, I was saying. Because also,

what was weird about the peacock is I have no feelings about peacocks at all no prior connection I've got no I've got no stake in peacocks in any way um I don't give a like privately commissioned for peacocks I could give or take peacocks but I was suddenly like I was I was googling googling googling and it just means googling galore honestly it just means loads of shit kind of um to be honest beauty love confidence all the things i represent i mean i didn't want to say it i didn't want to say but it does make perfect sense coming from me um but yeah so my one of my spirit guides is a peacock if anyone knows any further information

on that please do come forward i invite you to make yourself known particularly the peacock yes if if you would like to give any further information don't be shy if you're still around me right now um please do come forward and please tell me and also hurry up with that white cat i can't wait i can't wait to hear well i was gonna say i just remembered quite the story okay so here's the thing i've been talking to my nan every day you know that but you listening don't don't know anything about me um but i am calling my nan every day during the quarantine and i mean i was saying to i was saying the other day she has some great catchphrases some of which we've mentioned here iconic no child asked to be born for one it's true you brought me here against my will and now i have to what get a job rude how dare you i didn't ask for this life absolutely

rude others known as all men are selfish is a good one oh that was my favorite today all men are selfish simple snappy and correct you said i didn't say any more okay no worries man you know what i'll take your word for it um so the other day this was the all men are selfish day when she came out with that and then she said oh i was talking to it was actually really sweet she was saying that one day obviously pre-quarantine pre this sitch she was out and about with her friends two of her friends and they were telling stories about men and laughing at them etc etc i got it what a girl gang yeah honestly such a girl such a girl guy so she was like okay so one of my friends was saying that um her husband like went out this is why all men are selfish basically this was the first justification because she said her

friend was explaining i'm loving the evidence yeah exactly this is a case study she's backed up her claim yeah exactly so for example my nan's friend maybe let's call her mary that's literally her name let's say mary that's what her parents said in 1940 maybe let's call her mary she definitely does not know how to work Spotify and find us so it's fine yeah so Mary was saying um back in the day my husband drove me crazy because he went out one night gambling and he came back with not a penny before Christmas and she said she had to ask her sisters to help her like through christmas this is like probably 50 years ago this is a long time

ago oh my god so they were fumed she said she was up all night waiting when's he gonna get back when's he gonna go back he came back upturned outturned pockets with nothing and here is why in the last episode i still stand by there is something so stunning about divorce well there we go that's a really good example yeah mary divorce that man so stunning to divorce him to be honest she might be i don't really know because these these women were speaking from i mean my nan is single any late any takers any tak? By the end of this story, there will be. Well, not really. It's quite depping.

Oh, okay. So then her other friend, let's call her Carol. That's her name. It's also like, of course they would be called that. Anyway, Carol was saying, that reminds me about probably like, again, 50 years ago. Maybe like 40 years ago. I mean, I'm not 40. Are you? years ago maybe like 40 years ago so this is quite i mean i'm not 40 are you i haven't lived 40 years i can't think 40 years in the past isn't that crazy

having that much life yeah i can't wait i can't wait to be 45 imagine isn't that crazy 45 years i've been here like how insane is that imagine what you would have learned at that point and like what kind of hold you would have over yourself like what knowledge how you would know yourself so carol said that reminds me of one time my husband was going out and he was going to the pub whatever for a drink just out and about blah blah blah having a time of his life this is on christmas eve so carol's like okay no was no was no worries i doubt she was saying no was um she's like an elderly woman blah blah blah he's out having his fun she's home kind of whatever probably about 30 years old gets to like kind of half 11 she's like huh i thought he would have

been back by now like he was only going to the pub like it's christmas eve i thought he would have been back whatevs i'll stay up i'll stay up yeah, it's Christmas Eve. I thought he would have been back. Whatever. And I'll stay up. I'll stay up. Yeah, suddenly it's gone from no was to was. Yeah, big was. So she's waiting up. She's like, oh, I'm going to stay up and wait for him. It gets to, like, two o'clock in the morning.

She's like, God, I'm exhausted at this point. She's an Akaroonid. Yeah. And he's nowhere to be seen. That's strange because he's only gone out for like a little drink. Like weird that he's not here, right? Alarm bells are ringing. Alarm bells were ringing and police sirens were ringing.

She called the police and said, my husband is missing. He is absent from my life. He's gone. I cannot find him, etc, etc. Yeah. My husband's gone. Oh, man. So then the police were like, whatevers it'll be fine we'll let

you know if we hear anything so whatever carol she's just you know going about her her festivities i guess for the remaining of christmas eve wakes up christmas morning and it's a christmas miracle oh far from christmas morning she wakes up he's nowhere to be seen knock on the door it's the police oh so she opens the door and the police said we found a body in the thames yeah we found a body in the thames this isn't god this really isn't when you said this isn't fun i didn't think this would be a story of death at the beginning. Right, let me just... So the police said, we found a body in the tent. You cannot bring this up at the beginning of a podcast.

I just told a story about a peacock and they found a body in the tent. Seriously. Little does my nan know I'm monetising every conversation that she tells me in confidence. Joking, she loves this. Poor Carol, her husband's death has been monetised.

So they said, there's a body been found in the Thames. Hang on, we don't know he's dead yet, alright? Sorry, I'm laughing at that, what the hell? He might not be dead. True, it could be anybody. It could be anybody, but either way, Christmas morning, happy

Christmas, I needed to identify a body that we found in the It could be anybody, but either way, Christmas morning, happy Christmas. I needed to identify a body that we found in the Thames. In the Thames, bleep. It's bad. It's not looking good, yeah. That water is from like the Renaissance. Like that water is like... Henry VIII saw that same water. There's like plague in there.

Anywho. Yeah. Anywho. She goes down and it's her husband's body and he was dead on christmas day god every step it gets worse and then it wasn't a very merry christmas and she never took another husband thank god she had a bit of fun in her life and now you know why are you telling me this well that's what i said to my nan i was like at what point did you stop telling me funny stories about men and started telling me about death it's like gone

and they parted this life as equals like i didn't know this was in terms of being loved literally oh my god well i'm so sorry for carol that's actually like one of the worst things i've ever heard yeah that's horrific well this is why i think it's quite interesting because it's like this woman functions in her life as an elderly woman that is the experience that she has and that is her identity in the world we look at her and think elderly woman yeah wouldn't say boo to a fly or whatever it like wouldn't hurt a fly wouldn't say boo to a ghost i don't know what it is oh love that anyway yeah i wouldn't say boo to a ghost but also if there's a ghost why on earth would you say boo to it it's like the ghost is that's my job yeah it's like did you just say my line like why did you do that you stepped on my line

so sorry why did you do that so anyway you would look at carol and think little elderly old woman i find it fascinating that as we said she's had that much life and for her late 20s and 30s i just i mean that's just crazy that i guess for a portion of her life would have been so consumed by this guy's death her husband on christmas day oh my god so all men are selfish sorry whatever your name is r.i.p wait so was that a suicide or was that like a murder i think it was just an accident like he was obviously very drunk and just like threw himself into the thames or whatever like just moping about from pub to pub and just like fell in the Thames. It's quite a thing. Also, you still see that actually.

Now, boys, I say boys and girls, but mostly boys get really, really drunk. You see it at like universities and stuff and they end up in rivers and their bodies are found and they're like 18 years old. It's just, yeah, it's just crazy, right? Yeah, that's fucking awful.

Well, thanks for bringing- Yeah, so I just had to share that with all of you. Just in case any of you are managing to have a good time in quarantine, I just thought I'd take that away from you. Well, I'm really sorry if you came here for a podcast about catfishing. You love Niamh, you love Max, you love to see what's going on, you love MTV, but to be honest, the least relevant... Should have known better.

The least relevant show of all time. But we're coming in with stories about Carol's husband dying in a river. So can we hear some stats and stuff? Let's move straight to catfishing. Yes, definitely. So on the poll, yeah, I did a poll on the story. You all participated. Thank you very much.

Merci beaucoup. If you didn't, rude. Loads of you participated on the story and i thought it was really funny i actually had an interesting time doing those questions because i kind of i try and manipulate you guys to give me what i want to hear but also one of the last question i think was a direct response off of what some of you had already started saying and the answers that were already starting to trickle through. And that was, does the insecurity of the catfisher to some extent excuse their behaviour?

Because I found there to be, I just found quite particular interest in some of your answers in that the question catfishing is, and 96% of you, hundreds of you said immoral 96% of you then versus why do people catfish because they're so sad because they have such deep-seated psychological issues blah blah blah so true I thought okay so at first you said it was immoral but then you said there were deep-seated psychological issues. Yeah.

So then I asked, does the insecurity of the catfisher, to some extent, to some extent, excuse their behaviour? And 87% still said no. So I thought, all right, forget it. I'm barking up the wrong tree here. It's not going to happen. Stop trying to make fetch happen. Can we hear the first stat?

Like, can we go through the stats in order? I would love to hear, like, the beginning. Yes. So have you ever been catfished? I was surprised. 81% of you said no. Okay, interesting. Two in 10 have been catfished, which is quite significant. I thought it was interesting because I so I intentionally left the question quite vague, just so you guys could see for yourselves how you would take catfishing because there were definitely a lot of differences between what you guys would define as catfishing then we asked have you ever catfished somebody and asked you for your stories and we got some really good ones then 96 of you said that catfishing

is immoral you gave some beautiful answers to why people would catfish and also how you would feel if you were catfished i've just seen someone said awesome smiley face you would feel if you were catfished. I've just seen someone said, awesome, smiley face. You'd feel awesome, would you? Nice. And then does the insecurity of the catfisher, to some extent, excuse their behaviour? 87% said no. So you guys hate, hate catfishers.

You guys are pissed. You guys are actually pissed. Big time. I also thought it was interesting with all of the entire theme of the poll, throughout all of the answers, of the poll throughout all of the answers there are kind of two um understandings of catfishing that are coming through and I think one is kind of the old school mtv um sort of understanding of someone sort of an overweight girl who's not quite out of the closet yet pretends to be a boy to catfish a girl she

found a pretty popular girl that she fancies that kind of understanding and that's everyone's like comes from insecurity all this stuff and then also there's this kind of more modern usage of the term catfish which is like kind of girls that wear too much makeup it's almost like hyperbolic yeah it's like girls that wear um makeup and like use good angles are catfishing and it's's like, okay, so... Right. And we'll get into both. Yeah. And I think it's funny that it's a term that has always been used to kind of describe, like, um, the, like, misfits of society and people that are so insecure

that they need to pretend to be an entirely different person and transition into kind of, like, a women-hating thing of, like, girls that wear makeup. But it's like, okay, but we wear makeup because you've told us we're ugly without it. So it's kind of... It's interesting that it's turned into a we wear makeup because you've told us we're ugly without it so it's kind it's interesting that it's turned into a patriarchal term almost stunning that girls that have that use good pictures on their tinder on their tinder profile are now catfishing they're

lying to men it's like okay well sorry like what did you want a picture of me literally what did you expect honestly where there's a will there's a way if they can turn it into a patriarchal um term kind of attack yeah they absolutely will and it has been because there are a lot of people saying oh yeah i catfish because i use flattering photos it's like that's not catfishing that's not catfishing i hate that that's been you're literally functioning in society like you're just participating in the world that's been created to you you're doing what you've been told to do and now that is like deceptive and you're lying to men we're gonna have a lot to say about that okay should i get into some stories we can unpack what you guys said um okay so one that i found particularly interesting and i know you did too they say

a friend and i did catfish for a day to this girl in year nine honestly bullies. Hashtag private girl school. We made a Facebook with really obvious face pictures. Each one was clearly different men as a joke. A message and asked her about these really elaborate lies she was known to tell people not proud at all. You take it away because I think I know what you're going to say. Well, so before we started recording, I was watching Catfish Best. Catfish Best Bits I typed into YouTube or Catfish. I think I typed in and it came up like most twisted episodes.

And I was like, yes, because as we've discussed before this, that's my dream job to be Neville Max on Catfish is my dream job. Basically to go back in time 10 years and do that is my dream job. fish is my dream job um basically to go back in time 10 years and do that is my dream job um but um so there was one of them one of the girls was like I'm doing this because I want popular girls to know they were catfishing popular girls basically and they're like I want you to know how it feels and they made like what she would think would be a fake an obviously fake profile but it's like it's so interesting that urge to do that to kind of cool or popular people or pretty people it's like just to get back at somebody it's this weird urge

to like trick them and um kind of flip the power structure yeah it's almost like make them see you and make them like and impact their life it's like what's this weird urge to be um seen and like torture cool people literally that yeah obviously you're in a huge position of privilege if you are pretty and cool but it's like a lot of the trends in catfish are an unpopular person in the scheme of high school because it's very obviously American um an unpopular person trying to reach out to a popular person trying to access that the that level yeah and some ways it's coming from like an admiration like they fully are just enamored by that person I think more it's coming from like that sadistic yeah and then on the other side it's like I'm trying to get back at you

like I I think it's like I want to see you hurt yeah which i understand the urge of you've been hurt by that person totally it's sick but i completely understand if you've been bullied by that person you want to be like see you want to get your own back but it's such a specific way where you're tricking them that they're in love with you it's so it's so specific i think it's interesting because in the traditional sense of catfish it has to be very elaborate i know this person said that they've used that very obviously fake profiles or whatever and obviously i guess in their experience it was obviously fake but maybe that's down to the discretion of whoever it is yeah it's down for you to decipher what's fake

and what's not particularly online and particularly back when you were at school it's a you have to spend a lot of time in order to get your revenge you're spending a lot of time thinking about someone who you think is really bad you've got to make an email address then make a facebook account say then make like they're all their friends create this whole system well it's bizarre yeah and this person spent a day doing that but if you're really properly trying to get revenge and like invested in it you spend weeks if not months if not years trying to create and then maintain a relationship with that person so that you know they're always still hooked on you yeah and dependent on you fully it's such a strange impulse um me and my friend once catfished created a catfish twitter so i understand a little bit i'm

gonna tell you about it but i understand a little bit the idea of like spending time curating this world because we were in year eight or nine like very young and we made a twitter we weren't aiming at anyone in particular it's like a weird thing of wanting to access like a level of like model-esque popularity I guess because we created it was a Twitter for this girl that we completely made up called like Zelda someone like Zelda flower face or something like and a beautiful beautiful girl and found this picture of this like beautiful like long haired girl and we would just tweet from her saying like lol like so hungry like lol like just watching blah blah blah blah for what purpose for no purpose we both had the login and we both kind of i think we were trying to tweet

like one direction and people like that ah we were trying to like get like youtubers to see us. I don't really know what it was, but it's interesting. So interesting. That we had the urge to do that. And it was very much framed as a joke, but it's still like, I see how these things start. You get attached to Zelda. You get attached to Zelda and think, well, I can just live as Zelda for a bit.

And now that boy, I can see how that would happen. Yeah, attached to the buzz of how easy it is. As a child, as an insecure child because i was gonna say it's not even how easy it is to get the urge to do it yeah yeah but it's how easy it is how accessible it is to do it i know it's like an investment you have to sit and do it but if you can be bothered to do the admin and the like bureaucracy of catfishing someone it's very easy you sit and you it's an elaborate process but it's it's simple you don't have to be particularly like academic exactly it's it's literally the most mundane thing you set up a

social media it's so easy i think because social media is so pervasive and so to judge and be judged it's so like if you understand um just this the social impact of social media if you can fake a whole person that you know would do well on social media and especially if you from i mean i know catfish is literally the most irrelevant show we could be just like other podcasts like so tiger king even that's fucking done now we're like so catfish neve and max like no one is talking about catfish but if we're talking about in that sense of the word it's usually people that so when it comes out of like we finally found do you remember that guy that was like clap clap like clapping he's like so you're gay and he's like no is it but you catfished a man you got me there or so it was like a really weird scenario it's like well

this is what i wanted to talk about okay so if you're in love with a catfish who are you really in love with well i was just having this debate with my mom just now yeah fill me in so she i was telling my mom we're just about to record on catfish i was like what like catfishing what's your thoughts on it and she was saying well there's this old story do you know the story of i can't remember what it was and i was like no but go on and it's some old story i can't remember his fucking name oh it's like sergio deburiak or something like that it rings a bell but i don't know what it but i've never heard of it but it's this old story and she was saying that someone something like old prince or something um and it's fictional got fell in love with this girl but he couldn't write and he got this paid this ugly man with like a big

nose or something to write letters to this girl and she fell in love with this girl but he couldn't write and he got this paid this ugly man with like a big nose or something to write letters to this girl and she fell in love with the writing and then she found out that it was him and didn't love him blah blah blah right right right but then i was saying i don't feel like the victim in that story is the ugly man who the girl is so shallow she didn't pick him both of those just deceived this girl exactly yeah i think she is the victim so i think it's really interesting that's framed as in you fell in love with the writing no i didn't because the very act of writing is deceptive exactly it discounts the entire thing i didn't fall in love with your words because every the subtext of every single one of your words was the fact that you're willing to literally lie to me yeah so i'm not in love with your words yeah sorry like i think that's such a

funny argument yeah i completely agree i think that's such a funny argument. Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's really interesting because it is that thing of, yeah, so who were you in love with? But it's like you weren't in love with any of it. You were in love with a made up construct. Beyond the fact that most relationships, I think, are built on the projection.

Exactly. Of that person and your idealised image of that person anyway. Yeah. And then throw that level of deception on top of catfishing. I'm speechless. Yeah, it's like, and you expect, because they all come out at the end of that show. And I think probably in real life as well and say,

oh, well, you fell in love with me. You were writing this. It's still me. It's still me. It's like, well, it isn't still you. Because my idea of who you were is not someone that would do this. Doesn't exist. Yeah.

And I think that kind of relationship as in a lot a relationship a sort of virtual relationship allows such a level of projection of your own ego and your own self that you're not in love with anyone other than your own mind you're not in love with that person you're in love with something you've created we do that in our own relationships just in life my projection of who you are is not really you it's who I've projected you to be yeah and sometimes I might do something that shows you who I am and you don't like it because it doesn't fit with do you know what like we but imagine we were only talking online or like our relationship with influencers and things like that it's like we're just projecting yeah well the most of the world is it's all perception so do you think i mean i thought it was nice i guess how they put at the end not proud at

all do you think they should feel ashamed because 96 of you said that catfishing is immoral immoral and i didn't put the alternative as moral i put the alternative as fine it's fine fine because i kind of think it's fine like fine i wouldn't if i knew someone was i guess it's really circumstantial yeah i think each the word is too vague yeah for what if each specific thing like if you watch i.e an episode of cabbage one of the most traumatic one of the most twisted episodes of catfish you look at that and go that's immoral that person is completely betraying the trust of this innocent person blah blah but when you look at um someone setting up a fucking instagram of a pretty girl and they're at home and they've been bullied and you can see their insecurities not all deception and betrayal is equal exactly and also i don't believe we both don't believe that

people are inherently good little angels in life walking through life um and society has corrupted them i do believe everyone is kind of gray and mixed so i'm not thinking if you do if you catfish someone you're fucked up you are so evil it's like no the world is a fucked up place it's so fucked you're just participating and also i do think there is a responsibility for the okay i don't want to be victim i'm really gonna frame this in a not victim blaming way because obviously you are completely because that's not what you mean it's completely you've been betrayed but some of the people when you watch catfish 10 years ago when you watched catfish it is so obvious what is happening like they can't facetime you for years and years and years they haven't they're asking you to send them money and blah blah blah it's like okay that there must be a part of you that

knows this is a lie like you are willing this to be true but you know it's a lie like the fact they reach out well if you're going on catfish yeah you know it's not true like it's there is a responsibility with the internet especially now that is if someone isn't fucking facetiming you come on yeah particularly now if someone's not facetiming you it's pretty apparent what's going on there yeah it's like you're lying to yourself as much as they're lying to you at that point yeah maybe benefit of the doubt at the beginning of catfish it was a different time and not everyone had access maybe to a front-facing camera or just the kind of circumstance yeah that would allow them to to facetime with someone but i think now if someone's managed to find you online they can

show you their face online and it just so happens like on the day they're supposed to meet you oh my car broke down and oh but and now i need two thousand pounds please could you transfer me and i can't pay it but it's just like look use your brain like it have you ever read the news have you ever read the news yeah run an absolute mile it's like there are a lot of people out there whether they're evil or they're um they've got low self-esteem or whatever reason mental health issues whatever the reason, there are a lot of people that will take advantage of you. There is a responsibility of logging onto the internet

that you are going to have your best interest. You're going to be smart about things. Yeah, because not everywhere is a safe space. He might look like Zac Efron, but he also might steal all your money. Sorry. Yeah, literally that. Okay, should we get into another?

Yeah, definitely. I thought this one was pretty interesting. They they said i don't know if this is catfishing but i've talked to people without intending to meet them in person as in if they ever wanted to i'd avoid the topic or lie about where i lived sometimes i just preferred to keep internet friends on the internet because of self-confidence social anxiety did a number on me in my younger years but i'm a different person now with confidence and i'm a lot more outgoing congrats um i found that really interesting same i love to hear from a catfisher from a catfish yeah well i found it interesting that they said let me read it exactly word for word sometimes i just preferred to keep internet friends on the internet and then

they said because of self-confidence but you could have left it there sometimes you want to keep internet friends on the internet and that i think in itself is fine it's when you attach it to you're not going into your internet friendship saying by the way i want this to just be an internet friendship so i'm going to be honest with you exactly it depends on what their perception of it do they know that this is just an internet friendship or are they planning on transitioning this into a IRL relationship yeah but then also interesting that it was because of self-confidence and social anxiety that like every kid is dealing with but then 96% of people think it's immoral do you know what I mean I find it hard to say that that kid is immoral well I struggled with

when you ask the question because you did this sort of question lots of questions questionnaire this did this little question I was going through on my own personal account um going through what do I think and I struggled with the last one and I probably sat for about a good five seconds on this one and I thought do I actually think it's moral because yes it is down to societal um societally projected insecurities and all of this stuff but then I was thinking everyone has also suffered with um insecurities and low self-esteem and all of these things and yes some people have a lot worse but I still think it's your responsibility to not harm other people and I do think the impact whether it's the intent or not the impact of catfishing is a lot of pain for another person usually so I actually do think it's immoral because i was thinking is it just a

vulnerable person but i actually think you are actually causing pain to another person so i do think it's not an ethical thing to do even though it's it's not entirely their fault it's not ethical i completely agree i think maybe it's not so much immoral as it is that person's moral compass literally doesn't exist yet yeah as in they barely have a sense of self let alone a sense of like ethical reasoning completely and like morals to align themselves to so wait what did this girl say she did talk to people without intending to meet them and if they ever wanted to they'd avoid the topic or lie about where they lived so they would basically talk to people talk to people and then do whatever they could to get out of the reality of like being good friends yeah it's a classic catfish situation of oh my car's broken

down oh i've actually moved house actually like my mum's coming around that day i can't it's just so oldest trick in the book just like come up with anything you can i also just think why are people still talking to you like why when they no not as in why did you tell friends but why are these people that when you're saying oh i've moved oh i can't meet you oh i can't um webcam with you whatever the terminology was back in the day um why are they they know you're lying right you know what it is how can you see clearly when you're blinded by the sun our favorite fucking quote of all time can we let that sink in how can you see clearly when you're blinded by the sun a minute silence for that quote and it's so true so you're catfishing someone you've built up this projection of how much you love them and how perfect you are probably your your wedding and how many kids you're

gonna have because you're an idiot and you're thinking oh wow i can't wait for it oh but they can't facetime that's it can't be that it can't be a lie it's definitely real i definitely believe them please isn't it interesting that the catfisher and the catfishy i think in many ways have something in common in that the catfisher has been driven to catfish because of their own insecurity and self-esteem issues often and the catfish she the person who is being catfished will stay yeah in this cycle and stay in the relationship with that person out of their own self-esteem issues and their insecurities and they're mirrored in so many ways but they play out so differently totally and sometimes

they're just the right kind of magnets and it's the perfect fit you're so fucking right because if you think about it it's like okay so if the slum flower if someone tried to catfish the slum flower it's not gonna fucking work is it because she's you know what when you say oh my car's broken down she's not she's she's dipping out at that second she's going oh wait okay no she literally hasn't replied to you straight you for your first message to her she didn't reply yeah you said how are you she thought i'll try a bit harder mate didn't reply so it's like it shows such a level of um low self-esteem to engage with these people that are giving you such little such a little amount of how available you are you're asking them to meet you and they're saying, oh, I can't, my car isn't working,

but I actually need you to transfer me. Often they can't because, yeah, exactly, they can't because, and they'll make themselves seem super vulnerable out of this. Do you know what I mean? It'll be, I can't because I'm seriously ill or something like that. I was going to say, it's really common for,

on the show that 10 years ago, if anyone watched it, if anyone could think back this far, it was really common for them to like kill off their catfishes and say, oh, I've got cancer. Cancer was so common. And it's like... You know what it is? Easy kill. Yeah.

Easy kill. It's lazy. It's like, how do you get a character out of a fucking TV series? Just kill them off. Do you know what it is easy kill yeah easy kill it's kind of it's lazy it's like how do you get out of a character out of a fucking tv series just kill them off do you know what it's bad it's lazy script writing it's bad writing yeah so lazy but it kind of also is the only thing that works it's like oh how do i press the delete button on a human being that i've created yeah you have to kill them but you can't just dispose of somebody you literally have to kill them. You can't just dispose of somebody. You literally have to kill them off. Without anyone going digging. But it's also like, I don't know, it's such a weird human impulse to create someone that has a romantic thing and then a huge drama of death. And it's just like, oh my God, it's such a weird instinct to want to kill the person that you just created.

I don't know how to pronounce this word, but it's, I think you'll know because you watched that thing on Starz Play or whatever it's called. It's like Munchausen's. Munchausen's by proxy. No, by proxy is when you're doing something. Munchausen's, but that's not by proxy. It literally is Munchausen's. And it, how do you say it?

Munchausen's. It's so that of like, I needed attention and now I'm going to get it by not only being someone who in my world I think would be super desirable but also it's just vulnerable enough I just need you to care for me I just need you to nurture me I've got cancer for example it's literally like I'm perfect but I'm chronically severely terminally ill it's like what is that urge what is that human urge there's a thing I actually wrote my dissertation on this um about this

Freudian thing called the death drive and I wrote about it in the connection to sex and death in dystopian literature naturally but I think that the death drive is so interesting because it's kind of so we have like um sex drives and things like that but the death drive is like a drive that we all have towards our own death and that we all kind of secretly want to die because it's this like complete place of like calm and like stasis and like nothing is it's kind of the ultimate state of safety nothing can happen to you because you're dead so this weird Freudian thing we don't know if we believe this it's Freud so to kill your catfish character that you've created it's like there clearly is this weird urge to

suffer it's sadism it's massacre it's um masochism i wonder what the connection would be between a catfisher who has this munchausen's issue style issue going on where they're kind of the perfect person super ideal and also are so kind of weighed down by the burdens and the struggles of life the struggles of illness etc etc and even faking their death because it's it's like pleasurable to fake your death and not just faking their death to get out of the catfish situation calmly but like faking their death just to carry on sometimes they fake their death and then they have the friend come in and be like oh my god blah blah they died and then they carry on from a different person yeah yeah because there's this whole network and they probably already know the friend and blah blah and it's this whole network that they've built

up over years so bizarre it's like you thought you wanted to kill it off but you couldn't let it go yeah it's like you were in too deep with one of them so i wonder what the relationship is between people who do that and people who actually will end up dying by suicide. Because it's so self-hating to escape your own life and create another one. It's like the ultimate form of escapism. Because also, you really are just like sat at your computer all day. Back when Catfish the TV show was happening, this isn't even so much from like apps on your phone. This is like sitting at like a desktop computer this is like a big old pc yeah you go to work

all day then you come home and you are like excited to go on your fucking big yeah family computer and do this should we talk about the other side of catfishing as in the angles i'm a catfish i'm just such a catfish oh my god i'm a catfish. I'm just such a catfish. Oh my god, I'm a catfish. Totally. Somebody said, well, lots of you said something along the lines of, all the time I catfish people because I don't look like my pics. Laughing face, laughing face. Thoughts? So this is the, I think it's so sad. This is kind of the women hating section. I think it's so sad that women have... This is the women hating section. Join us.

Yeah. I think it's just so tragic that women have been told they need to uphold a certain standard of how they look, but at the same time are now told that they're catfishing people. It's like, no, no, that term is for people that are pretending to be an entirely different person. Like, it's just so sad that makeup and doing your hair and getting dressed and performing

femininity in a patriarchal way has been turned into like an act of like evil if anyone remembers a online first of all i'll be shocked but second of all he was one of the a online he was this guy and he was one of the big pushers of like take a girl swimming on the first date and him and a bunch of other um this was even before this is pre take a girl swimming on the first date can i just say that's one of the most disgusting things i've ever heard take a girl swimming on the first day it's like how about don't date me how about fuck off i'm not interested it's just how dare you how fucking dare you so there was just also first of all how dare you think i would go swimming for a first date sorry literally that it's like no you need to impress me i'm not what i'm bringing

my swimming cap like bizarre i'm wearing my goggles absolutely bizarre flippers if you think that's what a first date with me would look like you are out of your goddamn mind sorely mistaken yeah oh my goodness but yeah go on carry on i can't wait to hear the rest of this nightmare oh it's such a shame well so there was a huge thing this is kind of 2011 i would say 2010 2011 so this is a long time ago i don't know why this episode is such a throwback some of you probably weren't even alive at that time. Huge messaging of, I remember specifically a video that somebody made saying, a viral video from like a London vlogger. Probably he doesn't make videos anymore.

He might be dead. Like it's a long time ago. Saying, if a girl wears makeup, if you, are wearing makeup you are a liar because to wear makeup is to lie there is so much fucking patriarchal shit in this because you don't look how you look you are deceiving in your appearance therefore you are a liar and it was framed to be a really super hilarious so funny so charming viral vid when obviously in 2020 most of us would know that to just be the complete epitome of misogyny do you really think a woman goes into her makeup bag starting to lie you hate women you hate women just leave it there i've heard enough that's really got um incel um sort of essence of incel to it yes kind

of women lie to us we hate that's why they don't want me because they're all liars oh you're so bitter i can taste it on my tongue fuck off that's disgusting it's like okay have you ever spoken to a girl have you ever spoken to a girl has a girl girl ever spoken to you? Get a grip. Yeah, that's so embarrassing. Just say you hate women and go. You're going to shoot a girl. You're going to shoot people. Like, get away from me. You're a murderer.

Yeah. You watched your mum getting hit by your dad. So you don't value women. I mean, this is absolutely, that is one of the most insane things I've ever heard. So why are they saying take her swimming so the makeup will come off or to like see her weight? Is it both? Oh, I've never thought about it in a weight way. I thought it was like so she can't lie to you, like you see her body

as well. Like you see her with wet hair, no makeup in her body and her full true body. Well, I was also going to say I think it's particularly abhorrent because it comes from a black man who very openly and publicly no surprises here was um being so horrific about black women i mean you could have seen it coming it's so um my god it's horrific yeah it's just horrific a black woman made you just be quiet it's honestly making my skin crawl you have given this world for women to live in please don't please don't take it out on them when they start living in it please because it's your world you made them do this you told us you literally said to all of us you put it in magazines put it on the tv you put it in all your language that girls are fucking ugly without

makeup they need to be thin they need to have this kind of hair they need to have these kind of eyes they need to have the small little nose and they need to be fucking exactly this image of a size fucking zero and then the second they conform to that go they're all lying bitches well that's why it's telling because can you see a black girl getting into the swimming pool with her weave absolutely not this is horrific it's so hateful i never thought of it in a weight way too but that's so true or just in a body way well that's just instantly how I would read into that. Yeah. So isn't it interesting that a man can just so frivolously, he's probably monetized that video, he's probably made money off of that video. It definitely boosted his either infamy or just

like fame on YouTube. And yet every woman will hear that statement and think something different. And for most women, it goes straight into the heart and straight into the self-esteem. And on YouTube and yet every woman will hear that statement and think something different and for most women it goes straight into the heart and straight into the self-esteem and you'll never go swimming again and it will just sit there somewhere like every time you go swimming you kind of think I'm a liar I'm a liar because I only take pictures from the neck up and now I'm swimming and everyone knows the truth you're a liar oh get a grip it makes me fumes it's so easy as well for like insecure men to fucking retweet shit like that and kind of or any man just to see that and it so validates your

idea of like yes i'm honest women equal liars are men good women bad all of this stuff that we already they we're already told every fucking day i deserve more money they don't like it feeds into the whole thing of like when i go swimming nothing changes when a girl goes swimming oh we see all the patriarchy rub off her yeah i particularly hate men on the internet because there's such a desire to ridicule the female experience yeah there's a real desire to and it really comes with that western perspective of like oh we have equality now it's a joke women don't have a sense of humor women aren't funny but get back in the

kitchen women aren't funny though so why are you reusing a joke that came out in 1957 you're you don't seem very funny to me you seem like a fucking waste of time also with that thing of um taking the ass swimming on the first date do you not think that kind of frames women as like materialistic it frames them as like they've got all this stuff that they're like hiding their trueness with but it almost frames us as like um very like shallow yeah we've straightened our hair and we don't want to get our hair wet and it's like but there's a reason why because i'm performing for you if you don't want me to perform you wouldn't be on a fucking date with me. And if I wasn't performing, I wouldn't be getting paid as much as you.

It's just crazy shit like that. Oh, that's so upsetting. Things that I wish I never fucking heard that. Isn't it crazy? That's so gutting. Wish I never, what did you say? I wish I never heard that. Honestly, I wish I never laid eyes on you.

Honestly, men are amoebas on fleas on rats. Honestly, amoebas on fleas on rats honestly amoebas on fleas on rats the cunts how dare you tweet that how dare you tweet that and think that's clever all men are selfish a wise woman once said yeah but they'll know it's clever because they'll get the retweets to back it they think that's so hilarious a real community that needs to be eradicated in my opinion i didn't want to have to say it i don't want to be the one to have to do it but i will ruin my day let's ruin my summer it's crazy right it's ruined my swimming lessons okay something that i found interesting um they said about using certain angles on dating apps quite a lot of people said that but someone in particular said i usually bail on those dates anyway because then i'm scared they won't like the real me i hate that well isn't that such

a cycle of it's so counterintuitive because so you're you're maintaining the dating app cycle but the struggle is real the struggle is not the struggle is going to continue because you're not actually going on the dates yeah and that's when catfish the second understanding of catfish of the patriarchal girls all catfishes steps into the territory of neve and max mtv catfish of like i'm not going to meet you because of my own insecurities yeah it's like we need to differentiate differentiate between normal insecurities of oh yeah of course all my pictures look better than I am because they're pictures. Of course, they're staged.

Everyone's out there. Just because boys' pictures are them disgusting, holding a fucking beer with their mate. Just because boys have never been taught how to take a photo because it doesn't really matter what they look like online. Yeah. You're now going to suffer for that. You don't need to suffer.

Literally, I honestly swear the second you get on the date, they're happy as hell. They're losers. nine yeah you're now gonna suffer for that you don't need to suffer literally that i'm honestly swear the second you get on the date they're happy as hell they're losers they're fucking losers these guys yeah they should be so lucky i think the thing that we all need to understand in life is that men are not these cool people that we've made them up to be that we've made them out to be these great guys who we're lucky to be there. Seriously, they're lucky. They genuinely feel happy that you're there. And if they don't, absolutely sack that off big time. If they literally said,

oh, you don't look like your pictures. Well, what did you think a picture was then? Give me the name. I need the names. Give me his at. Send me their at. If anyone ever does that, name and shame. Send them our way.

They'll have a field day on High and Free Stairs. They'll be so fucking confused. That is so sad that someone would have internalised misogyny to that extent that they would genuinely think a picture of them and their real self. They cannot align. They can't even show their face in this town no more because they've had to conform to the patriarchy no no oh it's again that example of women missing out on life experience because of the patriarchal standards that are required to participate

on earth for the same reasons that we feel that we can't go to the shops without fucking makeup on, we can't go swimming because they'll see our bellies, they can't sort of walk home from the tube on our own late at night because we'll get attacked. It's like there's so many levels of control here. We can't eat fucking carbs after 4pm. Bullshit.

Just so much bullshit. We heard some people saying that once. That's why I used that as an example. We really did mothers, no less. We we had some mothers we were sitting on the beach and we had some a group literally a mother's meeting behind us saying I'm trying this thing where I don't need carbs after 4 p.m and we just thought tut tut tut the patriarchy again like such a shame such a shame because pasta tastes really good at like 8 p. I think it all comes down to how willing are you to keep missing out on your own life? Because it's not easy to reject everything you've been told since you were... It's really hard.

Literally, essentially a fetus from inside the womb. All pre-planned for you. Overhearing the patriarchy going on, you thought, oh god no, don't tell me I've got to go out there. Lo and behold, nine months later you did. It's's like please when i look down there'll be a penis hopefully everyone gets to a point where they think that i can't actually put up anymore and you consciously challenge those decisions because whilst we will always continue to be living in the patriarchy and have internalized patriarchal tendencies and misogynistic tendencies etc etc for as long as this continues which spoiler it will I hate to say the more you don't go on those

dates if you really wanted to go on them the more you're missing out and do you really want to live a life where you miss out and it confirms your suspicion every time if yeah it's good I didn't go on that because I'm really ugly yeah where do you draw on the line do you think you've come to a point where you've thought genuinely fuck the patriarchy i am going hashtag fuck the patriarchy but i'm going to live without fear because i think i come to that point every day and i also fight against that every day like kind of i have fear every day what about you yeah i think um i hate to bring it back to my nan but also i don't i quite love it iconic the queen it becomes pretty obvious to me when i mean my nan sitting there saying all men are selfish etc etc and she would identify herself as a feminist

and has lived that way her whole life yeah but when i hear how excited she is to know kind of what the girls are up to these days, the conversations that we are having and the conversations that I know you guys are having, because I see it in our DMs and I love it. Yeah, you guys are fucking cool. can be facilitated the fact that this conversation between you and i can happen the fact that people like you listening will listen and hopefully to somewhat agree you know like somewhat enjoy what we're saying yeah the fact that there is an understanding even of the world patriarchy and to know that it exists in my mind is such and that it directly affects you yeah it's such a challenge already i think every single yeah every single day you challenge the patriarchy just by being here by daring to open your mouth for a second your dumb little mouth yeah and then i think the more and more you think about it the more and more you talk about it the more and more aware you become of it and probably the more aware you are of it the least you like it and then the more likely you are to challenge it because you don't fucking

like it you're not happy about it you can't go swimming without feeling like you're um sort of taking off this crazy disguise you're taking off like what those those glasses with a fake nose and a moustache taking them off like your little disguise you've been wearing yeah exactly well it's true no matter how you swim you're making a statement you're swimming with a big old belly out you're making a statement you're swimming in a tiny little bikini stick thin you're making a statement you're swimming with a false face of makeup on you're making a statement you're swimming like a drowned rat no makeup on you look horrific in the eyes of the patriarchy you're making a statement everything you do someone will be annoyed at and chances are

there'll be a selfish man dear oh dear fuck this shit fuck this fucking shit fuck this shit i think our overriding message is if you're feeling bad about the way that you present yourself online yeah you shouldn't consider yourself a catfish because you're literally just a human being in a patriarchal world yeah that is so preoccupied with image if you genuinely think you've been talking to someone and you think i'm not going to go on that date because if they see me they won't find me attractive just know that that is playing into the worst impulses that the patriarchy has literally force-fed you from birth and it's nothing to do with you it's absolutely nothing to do with you that you think that yeah and i'm sorry that they haven't made you feel secure and worshipped enough

in your own amazing self i know that sounds like super cliche but it's so true it is true if you're really like houndering after somebody who just makes you feel confused or insecure or like you're you kind of know deep down they're actually not interested in you because they're not committing to you and they're not giving you what you've asked for a couple of times and now you're too embarrassed to ask for it again just suck them off get rid i think we all need to be so much more confident and comfortable with rejecting like obviously we all need to be so comfortable with rejection but i think we need to get so comfortable with rejecting other people because so many people i've seen just accept the first person that has shown interest the first person that's picked them

yeah they're like oh wow they feel they feel so lucky to have been chosen that they forget that it's their choice too you don't i know you think you like them but you just like them because they're showing you interest like what about that person that specific person is appealing about them the more available you are the more shit you will attract and i think as young girls often you are so aware of if you're being polite if you're making a man uncomfortable being acceptable yeah and it's not about that if you're not oh if someone's not serving you get rid i'm getting angry give me my lip balm i'm getting angry i need to calm down honestly it's like have opinions be as unacceptable as possible like it's so hard but i'm really having to like make a conscious effort

every day to be as unacceptable as possible like i really don't want to be accepted by this wide system of like my own oppression like why on earth would i be complicit in that i think part of higher priestess and all the stuff that we're doing is like we want to actually actively not live by those standards yeah reject them and go swimming even though you look like a fucking drown rat. And you saw some tweet that didn't sit right with you that said, oh, yeah, take a go swimming on the first day. No, I'm not going to go swim with you on a fucking first day. I'll go fucking swimming with my friends. I'm not going anywhere with you.

I'll go fucking swimming on my own. You cunt. You think I'm going on a date with you? Ooh. God. I'm angry about that like i'm angry about a tweet that was tweeted 11 years ago yeah i know so i hate living here yeah because there's people to be honest there's people retweeting it as we speak and there's girls feeling bad about it as we fucking speak me right now to be honest yeah but i know for a fact both of us know

because we see it every every day we get a message about what someone said to you what some stupid guy said to you and what you said back and how you've stood up for yourself in a situation like that or how do you know i mean how you've moved on so many better things or what you've realized about yourself the rebellion it's just i can literally see it happening. I can see it changing and- I'm so here for it. Truly, the revolution. I love it. I'm a bit fumigated, but I love it.

Same. I've like got a fire in my stomach that I cannot explain. Like I feel the need to go swimming right now and do handstands. I'm actually really good at handstands. That's the thing. In water. Like I do handstand

after hands oh can't do them for shit out of water I was gonna say I've never ever seen you do a handstand you wouldn't you wouldn't because it would never happen got no arm muscle at all but I I'm really good I can I can hold my breath I part of my Percy Jackson love is you haven't seen it but he's the son of poseidon quick detail he's the son of poseidon and he can hold his breath for like 10 minutes underwater so i was in training from a very early age to be able to hold my breath because i thought i was the daughter of poseidon right and i can now do flip after flip in a swimming pool so if you take me on a date swimming for the first day and you think it's a patriarchal trick,

you're in for a shock. Just wait till you see those handstands. You're in for an absolute treat. I'm going to be flipping after flip. You won't even see me the whole day I'm going. I love it. If someone asks you to go on a fucking swimming date with them and it's a fucking weird test to see what you look like without makeup and without your fucking weave in just flip their ass out just

flip flip flip flip flip around and then get their little penis out and say oh my god you're such a liar you didn't tell me you had a small dick bye genius yes cunts these fucking cunts oh i'm shaking my head i'm my whole body is fucking shaking i'm permanently shaking my head these days honestly i mean i'm palpitating like i'm literally like shaking fuck these cunts let's get out of here let's get out we'll leave you with this feeling let's get out of here we're out of here i've got an added level layer of bleach to my hair. So, you know. Stunning. I can't wait to see. It's looking cool. Well, we'll speak to you next time in the next app. Yeah.

Next time. Next time. Bye, Men's Hair. See you in a while, crocodile. Bye. What is it? I'm talking the same. Oh, whatever.

Anyway, bye. Bye.