Goes Without Saying - embracing chaos: a little commotion for the mess?

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

respectfully, get a grip. in this episode of Goes Without Saying, sephy & wing share their deepest fears and anxieties around failure, control and feeling lost. basically please stop worrying about that embarrassing thing that happened to you 7 years ago literally no one cares enough to remember, with love <3join the conversation every monday.come and chat in our book club!speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram!you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/zuPH7gyeGp Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com It goes without saying you're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Sefi and this is Wing. And I'm Wing. This episode is about how to accept chaos in your life and is that potentially a good thing? Is there benefits to living in chaos? We're talking about accepting your life as it truly is and yourself as you truly are. So I hope you find this at least interesting. I think we almost come across like preachers in this episode but hopefully you're up

for a bit of church today so we're back so we're back like we never left i don't really know what to say to be honest yeah what's what's new with you what's going on with you well nothing really i went to the british museum yesterday that was that was fun oh so you did saw the stolen artifacts saw all the stuff that we've stolen from other places actually just on that topic of stolen things in the british museum like i was quite shocked actually like they have cleopatra's mummy in there oh there's a multitude of things in there you wouldn't believe it but you but you should believe it but like i was shocked by just the extent almost the disrespect yeah of having that like it's not in this giant shrine in this big 2020 yeah 2022 jesus 22 like it's not preserved

in this way of like you walk up here is cleopatra's mummy in the way that they intended for religious reasons it's like no it's thrown in with all the other fucking mummies next to like oh here's a fucking pot it literally is here's a pot that we stole that we nicked it was i was actually quite shocked like all the statues all of this stuff there's bits of the fucking parthenon in there it feels outrageous but to see a mummy her literal body it is crazy don't you dare yeah it is crazy the queen of egypt why is that in this room it's it's it was shocking thank god the entry is free i would not want to be paying towards that fascinating but wrong in every way yeah brilliant but scary scary how are you um still covid but

it's all good don't worry i feel like your energy is better thank you still feeling rough i can tell i feel like shit we've been talking for a bit now and i'm feeling a bit like hot i just thought that i just went to the loo like in between our chat and this and I just thought I pushed it too far, poor girl. Poor girl. No, no, I love it. I love to hear all the goss.

Well, there's not really been any goss, don't worry. No gossip in my life. Just talking about the British Museum. I'm also feel bad for you because I know you're cutting out all my coughing and stuff which is just so annoying to listen to so not at all i was kind of shocked when i re-listened to that like editing the last one's like god she was so ill i was forced to sit and talk i was cutting out every cough like god why didn't i notice this at the time like you'd be coughing your guts out and then i'd be like so also gaslighting everyone will listen and be like she doesn't sound ill i know i know i literally i left like i left two coughs in

just for good measure because you would start the sentence you'd be like cough cough yeah so but and i was like oh i can't cut that cough so the cough's going in oh sorry sorry no it was perfect i thought it's good good for a non-gaslighting purpose people will know she's ill right yeah builds character okay well can we talk about chaos and stuff yeah there's a ladder and all that shite yeah i feel like how are you feeling at the moment because i feel like at the moment i'm at the moment i feel like i'm at a point where i'm having to accept that things don't always follow the order that you imagine them to be or like that you've planned out on your notion to be and like people just

life just doesn't follow your bullet journal yeah yeah i wish it did though and i and i know that you love chaos as a word and like i love chaos as a concept and who isn't feeling a bit lost and like i basically i feel like as well it's just i think we need an episode every now and then just to say if you are scrambling around on this earth maybe you're a teenager maybe you're in your early 20s maybe you're in your 40s whatever and you're looking around thinking i do not have a stinking clue what the fuck is going on here then don't worry because i think that's just part of human nature is feeling a bit lost

and you'd be surprised to know. But I'm telling you loud and clear, everyone else is just as confused as you are. So confused. So confused. So fucking confused. And terrified. It's funny as well

because there's this idea that there are two types of people there, like the control freaks, the perfectionists, and then there's the people that are like scrabbling around i think it's actually even if you don't identify as a control freak that i've never really identified as a control freak god the amount of control freaking i'm doing like i think we're all control freaks we're all control freaks the epitome of what is the most successful person on this planet that everyone would aspire to be is the biggest fucking control freak on the planet so we're all kind of aspiring for this idea of like living this controlled and like

potted out life fuck it it's pathetic it's just an illusion the sooner we can let go of this weird illusion of control and like things going to plan the better the only thing that you can guarantee in life is that things are going to cycle through and change and be dynamic and fuck up and get better and get worse and everything at once that's the only thing no for sure you've got that in the bank yeah nothing else the only thing that you know 100 you bet your life savings on it that things will change basically the only thing you've got is that your life will be a series of changes that are out of your control and at the end you die that's it that is literally the only thing

that is the that is life and that can be amazing that doesn't have to be this horrific thing that the worst thing you can do is try and control the chaos essentially well if i just put that there and by 30 i'll have this and if i just tidy my room enough maybe I'll be happy no you won't you might as well just fucking breathe into the chaos and love it what's one part of your life that you feel like you really try and control oh my god so many things shall I start us off with like a boring um no start us off with something boring is that a hypothetical question no well it's kind of I just feel like it's so I mean it's boring to me the thing i try and control the most in my life is my weight oh right and like my food intake right so just like boring sorry i didn't intend on it going there yeah but that's definitely like the thing i try and control the

most in my life i think a lot of people relate to that so skim over that that's just that's in the bank try and control weight blah blah blah but also the thing I try and control is like time like my time spent in a day like well if I can just squeeze all of the productivity out of this day then I'll be happy but like think about how you feel on a really productive day do you actually feel much worse than a day that you haven't been much better than on a day you have been realistically oh I don't know you're like yeah I do yeah sometimes you do you're like yeah I do feel a lot better actually sometimes you do I don't know you're like yeah i do yeah sometimes you do you're like yeah i do feel a lot better actually sometimes you do i don't know but it's i don't think it's that you've been productive in that day i think it's the mindset that sometimes comes with productivity

sometimes productivity comes with like a real stress and like guilt and shame and all of these things about not being good enough but sometimes productivity if you get into a flow state and you're in like a good mindset it's not about the fact that you've produced a lot it's just the fact that you feel good about the things that you have done which makes you in turn feel good about yourself it's in the film soul we talk about this quite a lot in the film soul disney films on disney plus i believe there's like a state that's like you're in the zone and i think that is where you should aspire to be in the zone where you want to be it's not about what you accomplished from learning the trumpet it's when

you're in the zone playing that trumpet and it's not the stress of i need to be the best trumpeteer i don't know the word but it's not about the thing of like oh my trumpet teacher said i'm not that good at trumpet this week what for everything i know have everything i've ever desired is crumbling before my eyes it's just about the peace that you feel when you're playing the trumpet when you're playing that trumpet playing trumpet playing the trumpet playing the trumpet just what a bizarre phrase hey what a wonderful phrase yeah what do you think you try and control in your life or do you feel like you've got a control over anything i think i try and control the story my life but like the story that i tell myself do you know i mean so for ages i was like oh the story that i'm telling myself is that this is very what's her name oprah's mate what's her name

gail no the one who um the amount that gail has featured on this brené brown brené brown gail not fucking shitty gail relevant gail no one ever talks about gail that's a complete joke that's a complete joke in a reference to a joke that we made in another episode in another episode yeah gail was obviously great anyway poor gail don't take me out of context there don't you dare i'm sending that straight to gail it's a very brené brown thing of like the story that i'm telling myself yeah is that i am not in the head space to record this episode today so it's gonna come out wrong and everyone's gonna hate me and it was all gonna go wrong and blah blah i feel like the story that i had for a while in my mind it's kind of just the plan that i had was over christmas i'm gonna have this time off and then

like we're gonna have the best new year like i'm gonna do this and like really chill and then i got covid and i haven't been able to do all of it and like i would normally this would be my planning time i feel like i really love the story that i tell myself is that i thrive at the new year because i just get to that close of the year and i'm so desperate for the fresh start and when it comes i'm just liberated and blah blah which is an amazing story to tell yourself apart from the times when it doesn't work yeah and I think something that I'm just where I'm at is that I've had to just accept that that's not where I'm at right now and like I can't sit and do all the things that I wanted to do and like start my year off with this crazy bang of like amazing like blah blah blah because I'm just gonna make myself more real and i'm just gonna prolong this like frustration that i'm having over like not having the energy that i

want to have or like not having my voice in the same way but accepting when things go wrong it's kind of a muscle i think that you have to like stretch and work at i think that is so everything the idea of um controlling the narrative which i think is a title from a succession episode controlling the narrative i think um that i love because i think i read a quote about this i don't know who it was but it was about how women have trained themselves to be like these perfect storytellers like i am for example i am the pretty one i am the popular one i'm the clever one yeah i am a perfectionist i'm a morning person all of these things women really have to put themselves in these boxes in order to make themselves palatable to the world we've been

trained to do that and it's so difficult to even get out of that in like a micro way and even people as a whole like i'm having a bad day it's like are you like we had did you have a bad hour yeah just your porridge wasn't as good as it was yesterday doesn't mean your whole day is doomed also in a world that's obsessed with media and storytelling i think that is so something that we all do like how often do you like perform for a vlogging camera that isn't there oh you're walking around your house like so yesterday i had the most crazy day don't get me started i know to take us on the same note but in a different angle because it reminds me of that so somebody said this is a message that we got someone said we often and i just thought it was great we often turn chaos into a project to

be fixed instead of embracing it sometimes people embrace chaos so much that they fucking hell sometimes people embrace chaos so much that they make it into an aesthetic the sparkles around it i saw this i really like this one i just thought what a clever angle you've brought to our otherwise uninteresting and uninspired podcast yeah yeah yeah thank you for your input you've saved the day but what like um i've never really thought about that but it's really true that i feel like we can never really how often do we ever just find the sweet spot on the balance of life to be honest it's like oh i'm at this point where i just find the sweet spot on the balance of life to be honest it's like oh i'm at this point where i just have to like embrace all the cares i'm embracing it

i'm just embracing it's like are you though because it seems like it's bugging you right now it seems like the chaos is actually really trying to get to you you seem like you're rejecting it you're fighting it with all of your might yeah yeah from where i'm stood like don't you know no no harm meant but i just love this crazy life. I love this crazy life. But you're saying that through gritted teeth and it's scary. Yeah. Scaring me.

You're crying. You're screaming at me. There's definitely a romanticized idea of chaos, which I do kind of love. But also, I think it's not helpful. So I, when I hear of like an aestheticizedized chaos i go to like thinking about like effie from skins back in the day like sort of you're rolling out of bed you've got the last night's makeup on you're messy kate moss yeah you smoke a cigarette and a black coffee for breakfast and then you like go to your lecture you're fucking knackered god knows where you'll be this evening like sort of that romanticized version of a chaotic messy life but through the kind of lens

of the world's most stunning person i think actually what chaos looks like isn't actually very glamorous at all and it's kind of um is everything going wrong is everything going not to plan yeah actually embracing fuck nothing went to plan nothing i'm doing looks good i don't look like fucking effie from skins i look like a fucking mess right now yeah you needed um two a's and a b to get into your uni you got one a and two b's things didn't go to plan no one's looking at you thinking god she's so glamorous it's not stunning they're they're you know probably no one knows because you didn't tell anybody because you're so embarrassed you've got so much shame about it yeah because for some

reason we it's like a personal the inevitability of things going wrong doesn't click in our tiny minds and we take it as a personal failure there's that quote that i always i think i spoke about a few episodes ago and it's from that eckhart cards whole book a new earth that i read fucking months ago but it was like the least stable thing in the world is what's going to happen to you the one thing you can't predict is what's going to happen to you in life yeah you have no control over that so whatever you think your plan is now throw that in the fucking bin because it's not going to happen could happen could not happen flip a coin no one fucking knows the only thing you can count on is that you don't know what's gonna happen so what is the fucking obsession with trying to plot out every detail of your day of your life or who you are and who you want to be well that's the

thing it's like you've done the route of let me try and control it let me do everything i can to make sure things follow my order and go and do this and i can do this and i can go to that union i can meet that person i'll probably meet my fucking boyfriend there we'll get married i'll have a baby with him and like blah blah blah and like all of these things that doesn't work that for definite does not work setting a clear plan and hoping that it follows doesn't work you know that for sure so why don't we try the alternative of i can get really good at accepting and going with the flow because that could work it's honestly the only option you have yeah doesn't really seem like a sizable option to me though yeah i'm like get a grip be realistic i'm not gonna get good at accepting things get

a grip but it's weird like that is so outlandish it's weird to me though because that seems so obvious yeah of course like when you haven't taken seems so obvious. Yeah, of course. Like when you haven't taken in society's kind of impacts and all of this stuff of like perfectionism being and like of just bullshit basically. When you look at the two mindsets you can have, you can either be like trying to force things into your specific point of view where you don't really know what's best for you anyway

or you can just take every moment as it comes as what is actually happening. Basically, you can just take every moment as it comes as what is actually happening basically you can view your life as an illusion or as the reality okay we'll view the fucking reality then what's actually happening not this weird fictional version where you're going out of Zac Efron or like as a closed box or an opportunity it's the thing of trying to fit what is it a square peg in a round hole yeah it's like your life it's gonna look like this and you're trying to force it to look like this like no that's someone else's life like you saw that on sex in the city that's not actually how your life's gonna go yeah you have to let it go because also things won't always it's not even like oh

there's like a well maybe this is your belief and sometimes it's my belief as well that like oh everything works out for the better anyway it's like no not necessarily like there could have been better parallel lives that you were way happier and blah blah blah but you're in this one the one that you're in right now is gonna carry on fingers crossed and you can just go with it and keep learning and like experiencing new things or you can yeah try and fit it into a mold that it's never gonna fit into your vision of how you think your life should look with what influences it's like what that just holds you back though it makes you it's the weird like we've got this weird misconception of like oh but if i cling to this thing this thing that i

want or this thing that i think i need and i can make that happen it will make me successful or make me happy it will make me have a better life but clinging to that one strict idea just holds you back from the success or the happiness or the better life that you could have but you can't you refuse to see it basically because most of the good things you're going to have in life you can't even imagine them yet no you can't even imagine them yet no you've got no idea guys no idea so you're limiting yourself then because your idea of what's going to make you happy is i'm going to be a top lawyer i'm going to be a top trumpeter and you don't realize that if you just did whatever you want to do and not be a play the fucking trumpet there's

an anti-trumpet podcast you might have a whole fucking range of things that you haven't even imagined yet but you're so um it's a blinkered fucking horse a fucking horse has those blinkers on shy horse yeah shy horse you've got your blinkers on yeah yeah you're not looking like you're only looking at the thing there's a whole fucking world around you hello cooey hello bonjour look around so in that idea of trying to force things and control things and that maybe this idea of like having a nice ordered structured life isn't potentially the most natural thing you can do i liked this answer they said the more chaotic i feel the sorry the more chaotic i am the more alive i feel control is nice but it feels like it's not our true essence and i think that's kind of how i feel about it like whether control

sometimes feels nice when you force something, you force your square peg into a round hole and it feels good that you managed to like, okay, yeah, I did it. Tick. I do feel like what feels most natural is this idea of going with the flow and not all chaos is in like the wind is in my hair and I'm crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy girl. I'm fucking crazy, but I'm free. That's what I was trying to do. But I said wind in my hair and I'm crazy crazy crazy crazy girl I'm fucking crazy but I'm free that's what I was

trying to do but I said wind in my hair and I'm crazy crazy girl but what I was thinking of was I'm crazy but I'm free that's what I was thinking of I'm fucking crazy but I am free um I do feel like it feels like our true essence or like the purpose of being here or what we're supposed to do or what is natural. Can you give me an example? I think the example is taking each day as exactly what that day offers. Like you step out of your day, it's raining. Yeah. That's okay. Rather than, oh, it's raining on my wedding day you could have dressed for rain or you forced yourself to wear something just because you wanted to wear it and now your outfit's ruined anyway yeah or like you're you've prepared a speech to give the boy who cheated on

you your ex-boyfriend who cheated on you i want to give you this exact amazing speech where i come across like a fucking genius and you come across like an idiot and you eat your words and you will rue the day blah blah blah whatever we do in our heads when we're trying to control a narrative or like a thing in our lives and you want to be the winner going into that interaction as you as a human being and not trying to force whatever that conversation is going to be and just going in with the chaos of whatever's going to happen you're going to cry you're not like a fucking idiot whatever you're like you're going to trip over all of the shit you're going to stumble you might say some good

points whatever he's going to say things you didn't expect blah blah blah but going in as the chaotic raw version of yourself in every moment of every day or aiming for towards that i do feel like that feels very natural yeah rather than going with a script or going with um like a need to control everything love it you know what it kind of reminds me of this phrase which sounds rude but i actually i want to appropriate this phrase i want to reclaim this phrase and turn it into something beautiful political yeah because this that was a cute little laugh a little squeak was it yeah I really heard you go really horrible yeah no it's nice there's a phrase that I always want to say because it's

is in essence it's exactly what I mean but the actual wording of it is so rude I know I need to say it to myself all the time but kind of what we're talking about is like just the energy of taking a step back and the phrase that comes to mind is get a grip yeah yeah yeah i think i need that you need to get a grip i need someone to follow me around all day just over my shoulder just whispering my get a grip get a grip every few minutes get a grip because sometimes it's like you you lose your grip and it's kind of just losing perspective or like rushing through things or like catastrophizing it and taking it to the worst

thing in your mind rather than taking a step back assessing the situation thinking of like okay what resources do i have like what options do i have like i could go through clearing i really don't want to i've had it in my mind that i don't want to be the kid who goes through clearing to go to university clearing in the uk is like this thing where like if for whatever reason on like your results day you cannot get into the university that you wanted to originally go to there's this list of universities and like options and module well not modules but courses that you can go into with your grades. Basically just opportunities, but for some reason, clearing is the worst thing that could happen to you and blah, blah, blah. It's really not if you take the ego out and just get a grip for a moment.

Literally 100%. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals.

Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. a cast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com

which is also like don't undermine the way that you feel you feel the way that you feel let yourself feel the way that you feel just take the shame out of it and just let it be preaching how are you moving forward like because because you're gonna you're gonna carry on you're you will go you're gonna move basically do you want to move forward or do you just want to kind of bury yourself under the dirt out of shame because you can't stay here yeah the earth is gonna continue to turn the world is still spinning next week is coming so you can't stay here where are you going are you moving forward or are you burying your head in the sand i remember being told this by my

dad i was gonna say star wars thing i was gonna say i am your father but i'm not doing two star wars episodes in a row i was quite embarrassed by how star wars heavy i came across in the last ep the fact that i but your outburst no i'm joking was talking about the shoes oh i don't have so and then the book i brought up was carrie fisher's i literally when i was editing that i was like you are an idiot book of the year it did make me laugh um it's funny but the thing that my dad always says he always like says to me a bit rude but he always says to me you're quite full of shit like as a person you're full of shit um and he was saying you need to like drop that which is essentially the

narrative i'm full of um shitty narratives about myself and shitty kind of if you do this then you're good if you do this and then you're bad you If you do this and then you're bad, you're full of shit. And to a third party, it's like, where you got that from? Who told you that? Yeah. It's like, why do you do things in a very specific way sometimes? Like, what are you doing? Yeah. Just relax into basically stopping such a control freak.

And he was saying, he always says, time is going to keep passing. Like whether you let go of the shit or whether you embrace the shit or whatever you do and try and try and fucking force the shit yeah time is just gonna keep going before you know it you're 80 years old you're still carrying a bag of shit around what are you doing holy shit holy shit you don't want to be carrying a bag of dog shit around so you have to drop the shit you definitely don't no would you say like would you tell the story of yourself like have you ever told this story to yourself but would you describe yourself now or like growing up as stubborn i don't like stubborn people so no i didn't ask

no no i think i have a bit of an issue with stubbornness okay so i think i tell the opposite story right i think i tell the story that i am not stubborn oh wow which isn't true i think i can be stubborn yeah well humans anyone's stubborn sometimes yeah human being yeah but i think the the story i would tell wouldn't so much be that i am stubborn i think the story i would tell myself you don't like stuff is that i find stubborn people irritating because i actually think stubborn people are quite insecure and that it's like you're not i think the people that say oh i'm just so stubborn so it's a weakness to be stubborn i think it's almost like they think it is a strength but actually it's like oh fucking let go i remember you saying that about pride as well someone being like i'm just you know i've

just i'm just so proud person like i couldn't do that i've just got too much pride to do that and you were like it's actually insecurity yeah totally i find it funny when people say oh i've just got so much pride that you're not proud you're fucking terrified but don't you think and i'm not just saying this about you i'm saying this about myself and everyone that when you see those things that you see sometimes you see things and it is just a projection is that you know that your pride is an insecurity i agree with you wholeheartedly by the way 100 but i think the emotion of oh i'm not gonna text him i don't know why i'm giving boy analogies i'm not gonna text my fucking love interest because he didn't reply to me i'm too proud no you're just so scared and totally that's because i felt it too i agree but i do think

there's the idea of i'm too proud or i'm just stubborn it's like you're not stubborn you're a spoiled little brat whoa i'm joking i'm fully joking but i don't necessarily love stubbornness but i kind of think a lot of people that think they're stubborn i definitely grew up very stubborn i think really in what way well i was gonna say i kind of feel like it i think it's like i don't think other people would have said it really because i would have been on my people pleasing bullshit on the outside world but my inside world is the control freak thing but it's also like i think part of it is a it's kind of knowing who you are like having a strong sense of self in a in a way even though it's also like very fragile and that you need to go think a certain way and blah blah

because i think i'm a very compromising person you're a nice person maybe too much so yeah but i definitely think people who lean into people who have been stubborn there's can also be shreds of like no they want things for themselves and like yeah i like you to back them down yeah i mean like let them take up that space i like that i think more when i've encountered people that say i'm stubborn i agree though it's not a good trait is it i would have alarm bells ringing of like well it's not a good introduction is it hi i'm wing from devon wing i'm stubborn quite stubborn but i think people say it like oh look you're just like your mother aren't you a little stubborn girl like it's kind of almost seen as quite a good thing in like it's again like a sense of um self-assuredness

yeah i don't necessarily see that i do yeah as a um stubborn it's almost like um it's it's the it's the square head square peg round hole it's like let it go oh but why do you have yeah like chill out a little bit yeah yeah i do get it it's like it's a confidence to know what you want but i almost think they don't really know what they want totally i agree yeah you two things you know fascinating genuinely though i do find that interesting i would love to know if people consider themselves or like did i think it's interesting to think about did you consider yourself to be a stubborn child a stubborn child that i think is interesting i just think it's not a word i've i don't think i really say it very often stubborn no but i'm really intrigued

that when i said blah blah stubborn you were like oh i don't like stubborn people no do i mean like it's just interesting isn't it like the generally speaking we all grow up wanting to be good and not wanting to be bad within reason but it's interesting the ways that like certain words or certain traits can like i really don't want to be seen as um something something like um selfish i don't want to be seen as selfish whereas someone else would be like oh i don't really care about being selfish like sometimes i have to be selfish to get things done and better my life you know like it's interesting isn't it what the ones because it just projects i think your relationships and the things that you saw growing up because also i see the case for selfishness and also i do see the case for stubbornness and pride i see the case totally

it just depends it depends on also who you know like when i think of the stubborn children i know and did know when i was a child i wouldn't necessarily be keen to put myself in that box but it just depends if you knew someone that was stubborn and was like they knew what they wanted all this stuff i would say like my nan is super stubborn and she's literally best person alive like so that makes sense my queen my queen my country my life very stubborn lady but also like whatever but like that her stubbornness isn't always a good thing obviously it's about it's not a great trait what was she stubborn about like what like the way i see stubborn is almost like um they always have to have their coffee at the same time every day

and it's like well do you want to have it and then it's like no we have coffee at 11 no no she's more so like unwavering in her opinions okay and like she she i mean it's funny to go sorry now i'm just like she's got no clue she thinks i'm talking about her on a radio show that's her understanding of what this podcast is and she knows it went big in ireland she's really happy about that um how else do you describe it i haven't even like i can't even try and explain this to my grandparents like bro just a topic no it's hard isn't it kind of like she would be the kind of person that well even that just was wrong to say because how dare i put her in a box first of all but just speaking loosely take me to the pinch of salt she would be the kind of person to be like i always knew he was trouble and no one believed

me oh i agree with her and now it's been revealed he was trouble yeah and that sort of thing that is that's a great trait i think to know to know what you thought and say it fully and kind of like the room could all be saying he's lovely he's great he really charmed me and she'd be going i think you're all fucking idiots yeah and she's fucking right because i know he's a snake and maybe she ends up being right maybe she ends up being wrong like whatever but she won't back down about certain things well like i do like that i like that as a trait but sometimes like jesus now i'm back down fucking hell and sometimes she does but like do you get what i mean i mean you've won me over with her but you could call it stubborn you could just say no like she is she's very headstrong in a good way and sometimes she can

be a little bit stubborn you know like if you wanted to go in a kind of um semantics kind of way but she yeah she's not having coffee at the same time every day and that sort of thing so yeah i think it just depends on i don't know i have a real relationship to the word stubborn particularly yeah it's like for example the word like um i don't know headstrong i'm obsessed obsessed love it yeah of course only thing only thing i wish for anyone is that they're headstrong yeah um yeah but stubborn i almost think gives me like uh bad vibes just red flag like why are you so attached why are you so attached to whatever definitely yeah yeah yeah why are we talking about stubbornness what was the what was the catalyst for that basically it's

just like being attached to an idea of something when you could just let it go but that's kind of impossible just let it go shut the's kind of impossible just let it go shut the fuck up yeah exactly how how dare you how dare you i think also why i bring up coffee at the same time every day because in the idea of how do you let it go my grandparents have their coffee at the same time every day they have very much they have their breakfast at like seven in the morning yeah they have kind of elevenses which they call coffee break lovely um like kind of coffee time and you have to have that like 11ses which they call coffee break lovely um like kind of coffee time and you have to have that like 11 then lunch it's like 12 30 then like a tea they

have it very specific timings and that is one of those things that you cannot shift it with them i have that with my grandparents too my on my other side i like i can't call them off well i won't call them after a certain time because i know they'll be like picking, time difference, they'll be picking olives or they'll be asleep. It's like, it's not going to work. I need to call them at 7am my time. Otherwise we're not speaking. Yeah.

It's just funny like, because that's one of those things where it's like, I love the routine. I love the vibes. But I also hope that I'm not so fixed in my schedule my whole life. I hope that I can at 70 years old be like oh i'm actually just gonna fucking take a holiday it doesn't matter if they don't have the right biscuits at coffee

break yeah i agree i also it's interesting to think about if we make it i hope we do our generation like in an older age i wonder what we'll all be like socially but also i i think there's part of it is interesting in the sense that i wonder if we all just want to be like kind of casual not casual but just like we want to be free or whatever when we're kind of 70 because it's the glamorization of youth and it's like oh i'm not gonna get old do you know what i mean i'll dye my hair pink i'll be like a cool grandma totally well it's also the idea of feeling restricted now that it's like well when i'm 70 i'm not going to be restricted of course i'm going to be free then but it's this weird idea of like you're not even fucking living

like that now well you're going to have arthritis so i'd like to see you go on your little trip then honey it's not going to happen exactly well it's it's um a capitalist way of thinking that you'll work throughout your youth so that you'll be free in your 70s. But actually... Save it. Yeah. Don't have fun now. Don't enjoy your life now. But what are you working for? A bourbon biscuit at 11am? Yeah. Every day at the same time.

Yeah. That's what you're working towards. So you have, of course, you have this idea, of course, I'm going to be fucking trekking up Kilimanjaro. Of course, you have this idea. No, you're working towards so you have of course you have this idea of course i'm gonna be um fucking trekking up kilimanjaro of course you have this idea no you're not no you're not because you're not doing it now what do you think you're good at like is there something you've let go or like you're good at accepting like if it comes outside that's not an issue i've got i'm good at that do you know what i mean let me think you know some people the story is i'm not good at change or the story is i'm great at change or I love change or something like that. As in something that I've got better at.

Yeah, whatever. Whatever you want to share in your space is more than welcome, Persephone. Thank you. Now I shall recite the poem of... No, I'm joking. Well, in that case, let's talk about Star Wars. Revenge of the sith it opens it's a black screen star a ship emerges from the left goes like jesus christ it's so bad um i don't know i think i've

got a lot better with like it's funny because maybe it is even like a stubborn thing but like dropping the script i think in conversations i used to be a lot more like i'm going to assert who i am like i need to show you through this who i am what i stand for like i need to um be the showstopper almost playing cards basically yeah fucking reverse you know carding them and with an expectation of yeah exactly it's like i will play how was work which implies that i am this kind of person and win me x y and z points and trying to project um an image and all of this stuff i think i'm so much um it is literally the relaxing into

it's self-acceptance relinquishing all control trusting the time of life or whatever but trusting the timing of that conversation that interaction your day all of this stuff but being more like willing to shift and more willing to take the flow of what's happening and reacting as i would react not how i want myself to react when i pre-imagine the conversation earlier that day how do you deal with being embarrassed oh my god i'm embarrassed my whole life i'm so embarrassing i'm so embarrassing i i literally live in embarrassment do you deal well with it no i hate it you know what sometimes the times when like i think it is also shame i remember years ago now i was with my friends and one of my friends was like the worst thing i've felt is i shame like i find that that a bad

emotion feeling like really is the biggest emotion is like blah blah and i was like god i don't feel shame like what the hell shit like yeah shame wow i'm not crippled by shame what the fuck but i think now i think i'm crippled probably i shouldn't say that but like i am i deal very badly with being embarrassed like i feel quite humiliated a lot. And that is essentially shame. Because when I'm up at night and I can't sleep, I go straight to shame. Montage of embarrassing moments.

Yeah, embarrassing stuff. I have to remind myself, it's not that embarrassing. Like no one fucking cares. Like it might be a bit silly or like a bit funny, but no one fucking gives a shit about you you are nothing you are nothing you are a speck in the lives of these people they do not give a shit about you this is what i have to think and most likely they're embarrassed it's funny that you bring this up because i was driving around recently and i was thinking to myself why are

all these embarrassing moments like resurfacing for me oh it's so bad i'm having like a lot of same they're resurfacing like things i did years ago oh my god oh my god i'm actually nearly gonna be six like i don't know what happened yes oh my god and i live in fear of it coming people bringing things up and things like that do you yeah okay especially with the podcast now i'm like oh god it's so embarrassing but just like things i said when i was like 19 and stuff it's like oh my god you can never have another human interaction again it's like i can't live i can't go on you are not fit for human consumption you are mortifying no no get the fuck out of here yes you've sorry you've hit the limit of embarrassment points you've hit the limit you need to go so cringe

most people don't hit that limit until they're like 99 if that no you hit the limit when you were 17 you gotta go it's so bad but it's kind of you just need to get a grip basically it's so hard though because when you're replaying it and you, like, you can feel yourself going red and you're, like, being sick of what you did. I hate the thought that we've just brought everyone to, like, we're all thinking of something now, aren't we? Of, like, our embarrassing moments. Yeah.

But what I... No one cares. And also, the people who do care, it's just their insecurity. I know that sounds really like, oh, they're just bullying you because they're insecure or whatever. But it is true. And it is kind of, I think, people who carry a righteousness about them and like to point a finger. Well, people that never do anything embarrassing.

Not someone I'd want to be friends with. But they do. They do do things embarrassing. They just have no compassion. Yeah, totally. And they're so concerned with like projecting the certain image of themselves that they want to be seen correcting everyone else but it's like you are no authority we are all embarrassing little weak weasels fucking scum of the earth people yeah because embarrassment i think is just things not going to plan oh do you not think yeah it completely is it's like you thought you

were gonna walk in and everyone's gonna turn around and say oh my god she looks amazing in that dress your hominy moment at the disco and you tripped and oh and you actually had toilet rolls stuck to your shoe how embarrassing it's like it just didn't go to plan but it is what it is like you've actually just been gifted from the universe a funny story to talk about with your mates when you're 50 but you can't see it as that you see it as like you need to die now or like oh you said that embarrassing thing when you were 19 and like three people remember it and like it might come back up and haunt you haha but it's like you've actually just been gifted that lesson of you don't feel that way anymore i think there are two forms of embarrassment there are potentially more there's

one that is like embarrassing in the moment and that's yeah a thing not going to plan and there's also this version where it's something that you didn't find embarrassing at the time but now you look and you're like oh my god because that's not necessarily not going to plan but it's it not fitting with the version of you that you see yourself as now exactly it's the plan that you have now so it's mortifying to look back and be like why did you do that it's this box trying to fit into a circle or like who was that yeah why would you say that why would you do that oh it's bad isn't why would you wear that all of this stuff it's like it wasn't it's more embarrassing that i wasn't embarrassed then it's what sense is it being embarrassed of growth makes no sense to be embarrassed about growing and changing and learning and like hopefully being a better person that like wouldn't say that or wouldn't do that

or like whatever for like those sorts of things not like oh you you've grown you wouldn't walk into the disco with toilet roll anymore not like that but like the thing that you said when you were 19 or whatever like the everyone knew i don't know what i keep saying like you like this boy and blah blah yeah yeah but that sort of thing it's like you kind of did a harry you looked at cho chang across the great hall and water came out of your out of your mouth yeah you spat your water out really embarrassing but also yeah he was liking cho chang he was allowed to yeah really embarrassing but also like you wouldn't run around being like that you've grown and i think because we've all got a problem with us we all carry so much shame that when we see But also like you wouldn't run around being like that. You've grown.

And I think because we've all got a problem with us, we all carry so much shame that when we see that someone used to be quote unquote a bad person, it's like whatever. Do you get what I mean? Totally. It makes so much sense. I love that the embarrassment is just things not going to plan. Embarrassment is just a form of trying to force yourself into this ordered way of life.

Rigid way, yeah. No, not going to happen. Not going to happen, mate. Not going to happen. embarrassment is just a form of trying to force yourself into this ordered way of life rigid way yeah no not gonna happen not gonna happen mate not going to happen um i love this message somebody said i feel like when i'm in a time of chaos it feels awful and i feel like i'm drowning but i look back at those times with the fondest memories for some reason maybe because i'm so busy and i feel like i have a purpose in life I actually think not that I disagree but I also think it's that in those times where you feel like you're drowning you let go of any expectation because you're like oh I'm just drowning right now like fuck it whatever and you you're not putting the expectation on it so you just give in and you're like fuck this gonna be

shit anyway and then you end up having a good time or whatever we always have this where it's like when one of us is ill or like things aren't going right and we're going to record we're like oh fucking hell like let's do this and then we end up loving the episode because you relinquish all control we go into it thinking shit i'm gonna do a shit episode everyone's gonna go bad everyone's gonna hate me blah blah blah and because you go in with the expectation of i'm a piece of shit this is a piece of shit i'm just gonna be shit and just see what happens. You end up, it's kind of like you have nights out like that where you think you're going to have a great night out. You have a terrible night out.

You think because you put all the expectation or you think you're going to have a terrible time. You end up having a really fun, weird time because you didn't have any expectation. It's kind of famously why New Year's Eve is always a bit of a letdown in the discourse about New Year's Eve. Yeah.

It's like, okay, so New Year's Eve, New Year's Eve, we need to have a plan and it's like oh it was shit because you've built it up to this like insane expectation it's impossible to live up to but if you just suddenly you've just come back from work you've got greasy hair your friend says oh should we go out you don't even wash your hair you just go out in your jeans whatever you're wearing it's always the most fun thing because it's like oh i just i went out with my expectations being rock bottom yeah and it's always just a bizarre thing you end up taking it for what it was rather than trying to force it what it what it was yeah and trying to force it into something else i think that's so true because there's nothing wrong with circles or squares but they are what they are a circle is not a square

and a square is not a circle circle isn't a square no square isn't a circle it's just not yeah and doesn't mean they're bad they just are what they are so just let it motherfucking be let it be and also it's like you are what you are exactly like this is the thing with it's not only trying to control your life but it's trying to control you it's like it's not only the order of oh if i spend my morning like this then i'll feel like this it's like only the order of, oh, if I spend my morning like this, then I'll feel like this. It's like, if I become this, then I will be this. It's like, maybe you are just a square. Maybe you're a square.

You're not going to be a circle. And the circle is never going to be a square. That's okay. And if you were a circle, you'd be thinking, God, look at all those squares. I wish I was a square. Neither one, neither is better than the other. No. You've got an unconscious bias against yourself.

Do we need to scream it? Honestly, burn it onto your skin it's true you have was it a bias against yourself yeah revolutionary i think that to me anyway i was quite shocked by that it is though it is because you know what it does it pulls you in and you know what it does it's basically saying get a grip which is why is it so rude but it's so good guys like i want to say it to everyone and myself do you remember i used to have a it was my wallpaper my phone wallpaper when we lived together yeah i used to have a quote on my wallpaper that said let go or be dragged i remember my friend saying like that's quite aggressive really for a phone wallpaper and i was like no it's what i need let go yeah i'll be dragged you will be dragged through this life kicking and screaming let go

let go or be dragged time is passing you're full of shit and time is passing let go of the shit or you'll be dragging a bag of shit to your grave god and you will yeah no it is true okay so how do you do that yeah i was just about to say how do you do that how do you do that genuinely like if you caught yourself anything where you're like on your best days do you know where you're good at not where you where it happens and you're being dragged and you can't and you know you're being dragged you're just like fuck it i'm just gonna be dragged whatever blah blah how do you deal with it when you deal with it i think it's about recognizing i think it's about recognizing i think it's about

recognizing what is what is what and that's why i think having the terms like having a bias against yourself is a helpful thing to have or like realizing that you're complying to a certain fear that has essentially been handed down to you generation after generation i think that's why being educated on the stuff is so important as like a first step to being like okay so i'm trying to force myself into like um being married by the time i'm 25 i needed to be married by the time i'm 25 that's blah blah realizing that oh potentially that's like a patriarchal thing and men don't have the same fear as that oh my mum also was married by the time she was 25 well my mum's not married this is you know she's fundamentally disagrees with marriage so if

it's so brave of you to share this fear that you wanted to be married already it's so brave by the time you're 25 well i decided to say 25 because i was gonna say 30 and there's like oh people will message being like so if you don't need to get married by 10 yeah guys i never want to get married that does sound real no one in my family's married it's fine yeah um i think on my best days most of the thing i can do is just recognizing why i have certain fears or like i have like i have fucking body dysmorphia okay you can name it you can see it you can see its fucking ugly face all of this shit like i think that's pretty much even on my best days sometimes most of the thing i can do is just recognize why i have a specific thing like why i'm trying to squeeze my morning into for all it's worth to

produce as much it's like yeah well maybe you have that because you're fucking insecure and you want to prove to yourself like it i think that i think that's all you can do sometimes what do you think i think sometimes when i'm like in my head about something it's like i'm i've got a whole scene in front of me but i'm just like rewinding and playing the same like two seconds of it over and over again i'm like but what if um like what if they all hate me and i keep saying that today please don't hate me guys but also like you might hate me i guess it is what it is please don't they're gonna hate me they're gonna hate me the fear of that oh my god like uh someone hates me someone hates me they hate me just playing over that tiny detail but it's play out the whole scene don't just play that two seconds what happens if they did hate you

everyone would hate me i'd probably get a lot of horrible messages i'd probably be about upset for a bit um i probably would you you know, I'd be crying. It would look like this. Like I would be insecure. It would change Stephanie and I's relationship. We would have a lot of conversations. I would talk about it with my friends. And then I would continue with my life.

Then life goes on. And the thing that I had built up as this like two second clip that I kept forward, like rewinding, play again, play again, play again. It's like, if you just let that scene play through and watch the horrible ending suddenly it's like oh that horrible ending is horrible hasn't happened yet and if it does it would be horrible and then I can move on and I think that's the biggest thing I literally love that there was a thing a while ago that was like I don't know it was doing the rounds on the internet it was like ride the wave of the emotion like ride the wave of it and i definitely think it's like a thing they would say in therapy i

don't know just putting that in all the therapist's mouths maybe you'd want to use that in therapy but it is really i'd imagine that in a therapy room it's kind of that kind of language that you have a nasty thought they all fucking hate me if you actually ride that fucking wave and play out the whole thing the wave fucking subsides and you're fucking on the beach and it's like oh okay like the ending isn't i die the ending is they hate me or my life still looks the same and then you'll deal with other things yeah my life still looks the fucking same yeah ride the wave out and it's fine surf it you still need to go to tesco and pay your rent and get dressed like yeah yeah and it's kind of um stranger things is scarier where they don't show you the monster like there's a key kind of trick when you're making a horror

movie is don't reveal the monster straight away because the fear is in like the unknown and the imagination of what it could be so it's almost like if you don't just keep rewinding and playing that same scary bit where it's all fear and it's all like dread and oh no. And you let it play out and you get to the demon or the monster or whatever this horrible thing would be. Then you kind of see it and you think, oh, the CGI wasn't that good. And like, oh, that's not really my kind of fear or like, meh, whatever. It's like, yeah, they would all hate me.

And I'm sure I would find a way through it. It would be fucking shit. It would be horrible. It would make me feel bad about myself. And then I would carry on, hopefully. I think with that idea of like replaying narratives, I definitely do that. I think that's such a human thing

or a thing that we've like learned to do. I don't fucking know what it is, but everyone I speak to is always doing that replaying moments, embarrassing moments, things that have never happened. Like the 75% mark. It's so weird. It's always like the, like, the precipice of the fear and the horrible bit. It's like, just before you fall. Yeah, yeah, you leave it on a cliffhanger of your doom is fucking impending. Yeah, it's like, I need to stop myself from falling, I need to stop myself from falling. It's like, but if you let it play out out you could see you're falling onto a fucking trampoline

idiot so stupid isn't it i also have a thing with it where it's like when i've noticed that i am replaying and replaying and replaying fictional future events or like events that happened embarrassing things annoying things things that seem unfair i do a thing where i literally like pretend to like hold it in my hands and i like say like drop it and i like drop it on the floor quite weird that's cool yeah very weird i like it but like i'm like drop it like drop the subject drop the thing and it smashes and shatters on the floor and it's like you realize that you were just like holding on to this stupid thing as i drop it oh no they pretend to drop the like the thing nice and physical quite weird i don't know when i

started doing that put that in therapy as well yeah they should they should really be taking note yes but it's like drop it because it's not serving anyone you've ridden the wave a million times and you don't like the ending and the ending even though it's fine you're just replaying for the sake of itself it basically is self-harm it's just self-harm it's torture so you just drop it just drop the conversation let it go like you actually are in control of that of your going over and over it's like fucking stop read a book go outside chill wow bloody hell okay what has this been all right we were saying when we just took a break we were like are they feeling good like are they we like motivational speakers now are you feeling good

are you feeling bad probably a bit of both yeah i don't know i hope that you're feeling good but you're riding the wave with us i think yeah who knows how it will end no can we end it on a wholesome note okay yeah i was thinking that with the wholesome thing because i don't want to forget about that the whole thing is generally quite wholesome i think within reason there's a lot of talk about like death and stuff but apart from that or just like a nice quote what's a quote that you think sums up the app i quote oh god i hate this bit i hate this i love it in theory but it's so hard it's like i now i have to give the best quote but it's like just because you're putting your expectation yeah let go of the pressure oh okay right what's wholesome

to you as well because i always think like i need to give them what they need to hear it's like shit i don't know what they need like i know that's what i'm doing all these individuals i don't know so what's good for you my thing is with chaos and order and all of this stuff that we're talking about there will always be something order there will always be something that is stressful your life will never look like this neat version you want you're realistically if you could script out your life now up to 80 now up to your deathbed whenever you die up to 100 up to 100 you can script that out and it plays out perfectly my nan's over the age of 80 that's why i don't like that as a threshold because it kind of puts the fear in me i agree i agree so is mine let's move

it to 105 why don't can't we even say 120 just to be safe just anyone else's grandma might be 125 years old yeah 120 if you could script it out you would script out the most boring fucking thing so true your life is going to be so much more exciting than your wildest dreams could script like you're going to be like okay so i'm going to do this and this and this and this and this fucking why are you limiting yourself what are you doing let let life take care of life like it will play out so true in a fun way it's none of your business what the universe is up to let the universe handle the universe thank you very much you're not the fucking god here like you don't get to be like and she is gonna have

this and she's gonna get a dog then she's gonna find her dream house no fuck you fuck fuck you not fuck you fuck that fuck me we don't know what's going on. Just fucking relax. There's always going to be little stresses. This is wholesome, is it? A quote. A quote. The whole passage. I'm reading this.

No, but this is a crux and I love it. This is the crux. This is the whole crux of the app for me. Yeah, yeah. This is the crux. There's always going to be shit outside of your control. That is a given. I'm so sorry if that comes as news to you. There's always going to be shit outside of your control that is a given i'm so sorry if that comes as news to you there's always going to be a shit ton of stuff that you

can't control the only thing you can control is choose your words well we could critique anything but just speak freely like the only thing you can control is that you have no control and you can accept that or not. Yeah, so true. Nicely done. Did I pass the test of is everyone angry at the wholesome crux? No, that's perfect. That's completely the wholesome crux.

Can you give a wholesome thing? Fucking hell. We're fucking mental. No, that's completely the wholesome crux. I have to go before I say anything more embarrassing. We'll be replaying that later. Oh God, the wholesome crux. Let's go.

Like, what is the language on this podcast? I don't even go there. If I said that in a normal conversation, like, hey, could you just give me a wholesome crux? No. They would think we were mental. It only works in this context. Oh, right. Well, if you don't me a wholesome crux? No. They would think we were mental. It only works in this context. Oh.

Right. Well, if you don't hear from us. Assume the worst.