Goes Without Saying - EX-best friends & frenemies: she's my roman empire...

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

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ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes without saying, listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. This is such a good episode unpacking ex-friends and friendship breakups. We've all been there. How would you describe this one? Cozy.

Okay. Also a bit brutal. A bit brutal and quite real. We're giving some actually quite harsh truths on friendships and the breakdown of relationships and how we as women need to learn to stand up for ourselves but also goes without saying be nice enjoy hi hi how are you i'm good how are you good yeah i'm all right not bad bit tired how are you i'm good i'm good nothing new good anything you're bursting at the seams to say

something to us or what not really much going on in there um looking around my room i'm halfway through lord of the rings loving it god okay so your plan for harry potter october is still still going okay they're still going they're still going that's still on blood prince is my next one that's happening october so somehow i can get through lord of the rings pretty quickly i think right it'll take a week it'll take a week give me a week and then first week of october i'm starting look there's no rush just enjoy yourself there's there's a new there is a strict schedule up in the shire and mordor wherever you are i'm right now on my way to mordor the whole first book is on the way to mordor but we're post shire um post Prancing Pony

we're on our way to Rivendell at the moment okay in the film also in the film that's really early on in the film but in the book it's like I'm well over 50% did we talk about when you sent that text no oh my god that was actually that was so embarrassing that was a really lucky like near miss Sefi accidentally texted me something should i read it yeah i on i messaged her straight away i was texting my mum about lord of the rings and then i was also talking to wing at the same time and i immediately was like no no ignore that ignore that and i remember being like i would rather have sent you like an accidental set it's so embarrassing what i've sent you god let me scroll up scroll up. I think you would much rather have sent me that.

You say things like this to me all the time. It's just the fact that you did it by accident. I just would rather. I'm just so relieved it went to you. Like if I had sent this to someone and then had to like try and explain what this was. Oh my goodness. I would have been mortified. I knew immediately.

Do we know the date of this? I'm now 12th of September. Oh shit. Why don't you search like genuinely spooked or something i know which phrase i'll search the riders i've got it oh god no that's not it yeah i've got it okay i've got it as well out of nowhere i said to wing they've left farmer maggots and the dark riders are actually scaring me ha ha ha when it was the bit with frodo hiding in the carriage and hooves walking through the mist towards them. I was getting spooked.

And then in capitals, I was supposed to send that to my mum. Ha ha ha ha. Mortifying, mortifying. Farmer maggot. Farmer maggots. That was the bit that confused me because we were talking previously, just scrolling up. We were talking about hash browns. Oh yeah, we were talking about hash browns.

How's it going? Yeah. You know, just some things that we were going through. And things and then just out of there i said they've left farmer maggots i thought what i'm not up to speed on this don't mention farmer maggot i don't know who farmer maggot is he's not in the book well they actually have one line of about farmer maggot in the film they say something about stealing his mushrooms so are you still farmer maggots mushrooms sort of thing oh right but he's actually like quite a big well so only the real ones know i don't even know if the real ones know it's almost like they not even the real ones no um but oh my god just the embarrassment of sending to someone i accidentally saying someone they've just left farmer maggots and now with the bits with the hooves in the mist with the frodo it's like no no no imagine if that went to the wrong person and it did it went you know what it landed in the

right it did it landed in the best hands oh my god it did so i i welcomed it warmly so be careful out there guys when you're walking and texting and just getting distracted getting distracted it is actually dangerous so it's so dangerous like if that had gone to someone that is like they're like who's farm maggot it's like don't worry just my friend you would have had to keep on sending things on iMessage at the moment can you unsend you can yeah oh i didn't know you could do that i think it's like only if they haven't opened it yet or something or like only if it hasn't like come up giving them a notification or something oh maybe i need oh but then it pops up and everyone keeps saying like what did you just unsend yeah like honestly nothing like it's not even worth asking yeah but if someone unsends me something i have to know well i know but it's like just the fact that

it's been unsent is the most interesting thing about it well it's almost like like the actual content immediately i'm suspicious if someone if someone sends me something and they unsend it's like what happened if that was enough for you to unsend and not just be like oh i mean blah blah blah i just keep on sending it but like for really casual things and everyone's like what and i'm like nothing i would be like right there was some i've got to get to the bottom of that right should we get into this yeah let's do it i don't think we've ever actually spoken about this in this way before no i don't think so another one from the curious mind the curious mind um also someone said oh besties these are hitting different today really done a couple and like put them on the story oh my god let's have a look i think we've

done some hard hitters yeah i think we've been doing topic topic it always is these days this is tough can i just jump straight in so we're asking we said what's your experience with friendship breakups and ex friends which goes without saying i know you have experience i know you have thoughts and i just saw this one and it just they've just summarized it beautifully this person said i'll always love them but we've grown up together and into vastly different people yeah and then they said worse than heartbreak heartbreak oh god well it is heartbreak yeah it can be such a yeah it can be i think that's crucial but like it can feel like oh my god i'm losing someone that's like family in a way if we were not friends anymore yikes yikes yikes what a loss

what to the community what's a loss to the community after everything the girls have been through honestly that's the last thing they needed it would be quite horrific actually if we fell out like if we it would cue them playing this when it's like the fame like in like sort of 10 years it's like the famous second wing compilation yeah the famous fallout awful but it would be really sad and really horrific also what would make it extra sad i think because we do this it would almost be like you're throwing away such a cool thing as well and also i know that what will have caused it is something evil so huge to do with this because it wouldn't because we wouldn't have we wouldn't fall out over life things but what i see time and time again is kind of people do things like this get

money money gets involved and then they fall out even though you'd think these people would have their wits about them you would hope and i think we do but it does it does scare me because i see clever people fall out over shit things like money but this has always worried me about you in fact because you always say i just think you know what something's gonna happen and we're not gonna be friends anymore and i sometimes think what does she know what's up i don't know like i fear it i fear it so much i understand riders who's coming through the mist it's a genuine fear who could not be spooked by that who couldn't be spooked i think i get i'm i guess i think i really

know the things that like really matter to me because i often envision like losing them like it's kind of a sort of fearful thing oh how sweet yeah i have kind of like yeah no that is nice i'm always like i'm quite paranoid about things sometimes like i can be a bit like oh god like that's gonna that's gonna fuck up that's gonna fuck up yeah i'm an anxious person so i think that's how i know when things really matter to me when i start being a bit like oh god but what if i lose it like oh no i need to check they're okay yeah like sort of thing and before we even had it yeah i remember you being anxious about you losing it well because i think i value our friendship so much that bringing in something that i know is on we have never done this before it's on kind of walked ground for us unprecedented unprecedented times a new normal for us it scares me because

it's like oh it it's bringing something that is quite easy to get lost in to a quite a wholesome dynamic that feels yeah um scary like i fear the internet in so many ways like it's a crazy place it doesn't feel safe um but also as i was saying earlier to you like it's really important to me to be like motivated by like hope and love and like cool things then like motivated by fear of the dark riders hooves coming through the mist like yeah yeah i think that's yeah i agree so i think i'm so glad we're doing it but i do really fear us getting kind of corrupted by the shitty nurse i think as well like it kind of goes without saying like there's been so much even that i've just read through those messages from instagram like it really is kind of a mark of it's like a real um girls coming of age like having a friendship fall out break down

feeling left out something happened something went wrong yeah this one went up this one went down etc etc loop the loop yeah like it all just loop the loop it's it's part of the chaos of being a girl that so many of us have lived is like going through that really like traumatic painful experience yeah of not being able to navigate a relationship kind of breaking down with someone who you're not romantic with but you're in incredibly deep with also that one is quite specific that you just read out because childhood friends it's almost different like what i feel with my childhood friends like i mean as we all do we kind of collect these friends as we go on like we meet people that we really click with

and stuff but childhood friends i have some friends that i've known since i was like that what like our parents were in kind of like prenatal groups that we were both in the baby's bellies and we were not the baby's bellies we're both in our babies in the bellies kind of we were already that's a real luxury i went to nursery school went to primary school like these are i one of my best friends i met when i was three like at nursery like a lot of my best friends i've known since i was one so like these are old old friends that it's almost and then you grow up and it's kind of inevitable that you're going to go in completely different directions but it's something about that like absolute lifelong bond that is like you are family so it becomes really traumatic when there are certain like yeah god ah like was that a

jar like are we in completely different places now because it feels like we are not even like joined at the hip but like you're a part of my dna like you've seen me through every stage i've seen you through every stage and a shared history yeah and an awareness of where the other person has been yeah i think that's when it can get quite difficult is when like your perception of what someone's past interrupts how you perceive what their future should be yeah yeah and kind of not allowing the room for like growth in a really old or long-lasting relationship yeah i think is the fastest way to destroy to the shire with the right the dark riders or whatever you gotta hide out with farmer maggots yeah it's really not good like that's where you're headed that's why he's a good place to go everybody knows it do you know what he gives them when they leave he gives them a basket of

mushrooms and then it skips and i think there's like a footnote and it says hobbits love mushrooms like they absolutely love them and i was really thinking like i really want a basket of mushrooms like what a nice gift i'll give you one if you want it's quite stardew valley actually it's so sorry like imagine i like someone comes to house and they have like a huge basket of like mushrooms what i was gonna say is that is that a kind of a reference to like a magic mushroom oh maybe because the hobbits are kind of bouncing around they're all they smoke this thing they smoke this thing called pipe weed there's a whole chapter about at the beginning i mean and i think it's like this root that they smoke.

And I think it is like kind of supposed to be weed. Yeah, so they're quite into this sort of stuff. Yeah, they've been exploring nature's fine wares. So it could be because they freaking love mushrooms, apparently, according to the footnote. Good for them. I have a lot of space for your love of Lord of the Rings in this relationship. Thanks. Thanks so much. I've got a lot of space for your love of lord of the rings in this relationship thanks

thanks so much i've got a love a lot of love to give good good good i'm liking this so am i so am i good okay so can i actually ask you a question but obviously like it's your life so tell me how personal you want to go but just kind of off the back of this message that i just read someone was talking about they had friends they had um acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend nature i've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer. And we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple.

Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com they said they had two friends that they quote-unquote broke up with earlier this year and i was just thinking about the different ways that like a friendship or relationship can kind of come to an end and sometimes it's like an announced explicit ending or is it like an under the surface painful fizzle like weird resentment dynamic bizarre thing and i just kind of wanted to know if you ever explicitly said to someone like i'm not continuing this friendship no i don't think i've ever said to someone i'm not continuing this dynamic because it just feels too harsh like yeah i can say that to a romantic

partner i can say like i don't think this is working blah blah blah because i feel like you go into something like that with that agreement but like you start talking to someone with an idea of like whether this is going to work or not work like it's very binary in those dynamics but with friendship it's like it doesn't almost seem much higher stakes yeah higher stakes and almost like it doesn't feel appropriate to like be like we're not unless something has happened like unless someone has actually like you fucking um stole from me like although that i would actually consider that completely iconic behavior from you if you got away with that i would literally be like you literally steal from everyone it's like wow you stole from a thief you're literally yeah

everything to me uh-huh teach me your ways but i if someone did something like bad to me then i think it's like look i i can't forgive that like i think you know we're done here sort of thing but for just the general um fizzling i don't think we're getting on thing i don't think it's appropriate to be like i don't think i'm gonna continue seeing you because it's almost like huh excuse me like what is that like what's the what's with the announcement also i feel like we're just kind of um it's kind of um the woman's way to have the awkward um uncomfortable tense fizzle like it's almost like god it's horrible but it almost i've seen it so many times and i've done it so many times where it's just like oh it's just uncomfortable for ages and horrible for ages until it ends until

we just don't see until we both just out of that scenario it's just horrible for ages and then it's done well i think as well like a key part of that is like if there's no real wrong done beyond like someone stealing something but like if there's no wrong done the fizzle is kind of the easiest way out as hard as it can be sometimes but i think when some when a line a heavy line has been crossed like in a case of like an abusive person like a kind of um very draining soul destroying person you might say unquote toxic person you might say i've heard people say that yeah valid to need a way out 100 and also like you might not care enough to have the effort of the break up like i almost feel like you're already too far gone out of it yeah it's almost like for example in a romantic dynamic you kind of owe that conversation because they've entered

into something like that and yeah if it's your best friend maybe you feel like you're gonna owe them the conversation about um oh i don't think this is like we're in different places at the moment like it's just really hard blah blah even though you might not have an ending but and you might want the closure like there might be some things that you feel like you need to have said and that's often if you feel like you've been wronged i think that it's like i need to just tell you that this thing that you did is like more important to me than i made out maybe or something like that but you might not for the just the general friends of life which is it sounds really brutal actually but i think there

are certain people that are just like situation friends it's like i'm friends with you because a fact of life we were friends at work or we both did this club together way to the seminar and and i think with something like that anymore when they end i think it can be easy to think like oh was that a friendship breakup or was that just like the natural kind of accumulation of just no accumulation is not the right word just the natural fucking culmination i mean culmination of that friendship like that event has passed and now it's done like yeah you don't walk that way to the seminar anymore and maybe it's just not that deep

maybe also the kind of gendered aspect as we kind of said of like the girls fizzling things out and the boys being a bit like yeah like whatever kind of having a go at one another yeah maybe and generally between girls maybe we're encouraged to be docile and sweet and forgiving and not kick up a fuss and all of that quiet quiet but i do think have the conversation like i don't think there's anything wrong with having the breakup like i almost think maybe that conversation like i don't think there's anything wrong with having the breakup like i almost think maybe that would even be nicer to be like oh i don't know if it would though if someone's definitely had a conversation like that before have you not with anyone um only in a dire dire situation where almost like do i have to get a restraining order

like i need to be separate from you like this isn't fair anymore i'm ending this what would you say if someone said that to you like how would you feel like it's pretty i mean i would have to imagine that i've done some things that would warrant someone who cares about me and i care about them to say something at that level it is hard hitting but it's not without reason it's kind of we were saying earlier stephy had an argument with someone and i was saying like yeah you were saying harsh things but yeah not for no reason like it's fully justified like you're emotional and you're pissed off for good reason yeah yeah you've been brought to that place

partly by the actions of somebody else which you're in your rights to share however that comes off obviously like let's not be assholes but like generally you're in your rights to be upset and annoyed and have your feelings and whatever if someone said to me this like i'm done so like my kind of the experience that i had was very much like someone wanting to stay and in my life and like keep it going and you know we can be friends we can be best friends like all of this stuff and i very much said like i am happy to be not pleasant yeah yeah i'm happy to like be civil say happy birthday maybe yeah but generally we can't be friends right now yeah it's not fair yeah it's not fair for us to be friends and it's

that's a right that i hold in my life to say like and it is a right actually like and it is your right yeah to say like look you don't have unlimited access to my time and you can't bank on me being on the other end of the phone anymore because what you did was out of order god i'd love to know what this is i'll have to explain uh later yeah okay interesting interesting but it was well you know what i'll say there was someone i've said this on the podcast before that it it made me think of the analogy of being with this person being around this person is it no interest but you might be you might be thinking of the right person i think i am but you might have got the yes yeah i need to remember to block that out but

it was the person that i said i would always feel like it's like you're looking at them it's like okay you're drowning you're drowning yeah that doesn't mean you have to push my head underwater so that you can stay afloat best analogy of all time great analogy are you a therapist literally 14 years old insane i mean give this girl a podcast give this unfortunately i had nothing else to give that was the only thing of value and everything else has gone down the drain but yeah with that person like look how long can i drown for one of us is drowning here and it ain't me yeah like i'm gonna have to step away so what did you say you know you had a breakup well this is after like kind of 40 texts of abuse like in a row and like whoa like it's

just too much ringing my boyfriend like crazy things like just try just it's too much it's way too much it's not fair and it's just sad and it's like you're i can only help you as much as you want to be helped there's one of those classic things of like you're trying to give to somebody i was gonna say that did you have any of those moments because i feel like it would be pretty common to have the like almost the conversation about how you're gonna fix it like we just need to do this more we just need to have this conversation no i mean there was it's hard to kind of explain but there were some episodes happening on the other end this person was going through some things yeah and would behave in a way that was like not fair for other for someone else to be around and that's not to say that like we've all got our shit yeah and like

i can be an arsehole to be around for sure but there is a limit to what i would want to put my loved ones through and so kind of like when you said like how would you react if someone said to you look i can't do this in this dynamic anymore i would be so upset and i would feel i'm sure like a huge amount of shame of like oh my god i must have done yeah i've really hurt this person yeah like it's actually it's really really not good yeah but um i do also think it's kind of a part of life that a lot of us go through is like encountering certain kind of people who latch on and try and suck away the life out of you and you've got your own shit to deal with live your life like i trust that people do the most for other people sometimes you're doing the most for other people

and you have to step back and be like what the fuck am i doing like yeah this is making me feel so shit and it's not something that i would want to continue and it's kind of baffling that you would want to continue this because i make you laugh every now and then yeah because we have a joke because we go out every now and then absolutely it's not worth it they probably want to because they know that you will be a punching bag to a certain extent so it's almost like when then you do it it's almost like god their life raft has been taken away of like they thought they could punch punch punch and it's like actually no yeah punching bags disappeared into thin air punching bags and maybe they're only real friend like suddenly it's like look around

you like the last one left like the common denominator here is you yeah is is you and sometimes there are some mean people out there guys stay safe yeah that's a really hard one actually like the kind of because i think i think of friend breakups as like the thing is sorry can i just finish i'm sorry sorry saying no no no you were you were that was me interrupting you but i just momentarily forgot but i was going to go back the reason why i know that that was like the right thing to do and like i feel so at peace with my non-existent relationship with this person now is that i don't like i wish them good things i really hope they're well i hope they're happy i hope they're healthy like um i really do hope they're okay but like i don't think of them yeah

that often like i rarely think about them and there was a conversation that we had where they were like i miss you so much and i was like i don't this is so brutal but i obviously didn't say this but in my head i was like that's really interesting because my life is so brutal, but I obviously didn't say this, but in my head I was like, that's really interesting because my life is so much better. But also they probably miss, you're not making me so sad. They probably miss that dynamic. Like, yeah.

Okay. If you're going to punch someone every day, it's like, no wonder you miss that because you're putting your anger onto them whilst they're absorbing your anger. Like, of course that person is missing that and you're not missing that. Yeah. There's a one way fucking dynamic anyway.

Yeah. Pretty fucked. There we go hey well congrats for ending that because that sounds absolutely horrendous i did see a funny thing um i can't remember where it was like i don't know if it was a dm or like a message on the spotify but it said oh it's nice to hear that sephi and wing have to deal with shitty friends too oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah big time yeah yeah we have to we have to deal with um i'd say all the all the human things all the human traits all the human experiences there are lots of things that we're dealing with believe it or not god so many so there you go but i think that's kind of the kicker is like if you can move away from this person and not be kind of haunted by them by the memories yeah then i think you did the right thing yeah but the ghosts of the glistening of the ghosts of your past yeah

sorry now what were you gonna say no i just find that interesting because i um think i have i don't think i've had a friendship break up I've never had a conversation with someone although let me just rack my brains no I've never done it in those two seconds I think I've racked my histories I can't seem to find one I think I have fizzled a lot of things but not even consciously I think I just um yeah there's been a lot of um people that I've been around that I have decided I don't like or like have done something that's like oh no I don't like that sort of thing and made decisions to like step away from people but I actually don't think I have any ex-friends I don't have any I don't think I really have any enemies in of like ex-friends

which is a not a nice thing like i would hate the idea of like someone thinking of our time together as like a negative thing but well i think that's where sorry just the idea of like an enemy i feel like that's where there's there's things that are burning to be said like there's some degree of closure that like you've left something in the air and like i guess that's your choice if you want to like raise that bring it in or not and if yeah if that's something that's even like feasible but i feel like when there's a shared understanding an unspoken understanding that everyone has come to that it's like okay this hasn't worked for whatever reason and we're happy to put this to bed and there's no kind of vengeance

being plotted um behind somebody's back it's just like okay i'm extending well wishes like genuinely good vibes like there's there's no one really apart from one person who was never a friend they were just yeah an enemy relevant they were actually in it well they still are an enemy and it's a grown man he knows he's a known enemy he's a he's a walking he's a dark rider he's beyond yeah he's evil and he's not my friend and he never was my friend he was never my friend either adult abuser yeah um and i was just a child so i don't know why i brought this up but that's my only known enemy in this walking world yeah thinking oh i don't think that goa and emerali likes me very much like i think beyond that yeah i definitely have a few of those i have a few people that i definitely rubbed the wrong way in life yeah but like naturally yeah but like no one there's no one there's no ill will no ill will i'd hope not but there's no one i really have

ill will towards but i have definitely had those i actually i actually think one of the first lessons that i learned in life i think i've told this story before but like i used to walk to school every day as everyone else this is such an intriguing episode by the way is it i'm intrigued yeah i'm intrigued i'm intrigued yeah as all the kids did i used to walk to school every day a lot of people live in it i live in a small town um and a lot of people would stop at my house or not a lot of people but like three friends would stop at my house because my mom did amazing breakfasts and they would all come and eat the breakfast and it was like breakfast time she would do like kind of scrambled egg on one day like she would just did it for us to start off with but people started arriving earlier and

earlier and soon before we knew it they were like people here for like we did like they were like um brioche was one of the mornings it's a bit like tell me your middle class without telling me your middle class like it's brioche day wow um and it'd be like chocolate chip brioche sort of thing yum yeah um and they good for you yeah really fun really i'm happy for you but people would come to the house and they would like get the breakfast with us and from there we would scoot around to the school fun times best days of my life full of brioche scooting around okay fun and that's great yes i'm so good like almost i want to do it now let's do it tomorrow and let's get my scooter this weekend yeah and people would show up and there was this one girl

who i don't think came to the breakfast but would kind of join the gang later on afterwards and i once as a kid it was mean i scooted i scooted away from her oh i scooted away really rude i was in like i don't know year three year four i have no idea like young so i scooted away and what came over you oh i thought you said how old were you and i said young the youngness came over you that's also the youth but what came over me was i don't like this girl i don't like her she's annoying i don't like her just all the emotions that are completely valid to have around people i just don't like this just all the emotions that are completely valid to have around people i just don't like this girl annoying is a crazy one because it's like

their existence is annoying like that's so it's rude but it's also just like you're not annoying to everyone but i find you annoying like i'm definitely annoying to a lot of people oh god i'm the queen of annoying surely who's annoying to us i'm not annoyed by many people it's interesting i don't think i've ever adopted that they're annoying category of being like that person's annoying i would almost be like that person's mean or something i think well also it's not necessarily something i would say about people now but like as a kid it's like what they're they're annoying me. Like, they want to, they're, like, doing annoying, like, kids do annoying things.

Yeah, my cousin maybe is annoying. I think I can be quite annoying. Anyway, anyway, yes, sorry. Just found it interesting, interesting language. Like. She was, like, a 10-year-old girl, maybe younger. She was being annoying. You're like a two.

Live your life. Oh. I'm not the, I'm not the child police. The child police. I'm not cams. No, I'm not. I'm not the child police the child please i'm not cams no i'm not cams i wish i was no thank god um yeah so i scooted away from her and then her mom rang my mom after school and said poppy that's me um i have a different name it's an alias she's had to change her name find a new um yeah really confusing my name is persephone if you don't know me but people call

me sephie which is what you may call me listening to this and people yeah um really confusing you burned too many bridges you had to run away i just thought let's go back but i was born under the title persephone persephone yeah that's the crucial bit um and she phoned me up said poppy scooted away from my kid and my kid was really upset reasonably so so reasonable i then came home and my mom said this one i'm team friend at this point if my kid comes home and they say this little fucking rat poppy has scooted away from my child i would say i can see it from both i can see it from both but i do think what i learned was a valuable lesson totally you don't have to spend time with people carry on my mom basically was was like this woman phoned me and said that you really upset her like you have to be nice to her

but as a rule you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with great such an important lesson and i think i actually had a bit of a moment with my little sister when i was in lisbon last week and she said that there was this girl that was annoying her clearly we're quite an annoyed family okay um she's so annoying she was saying she's got like an american accent she's so annoying um and i was like i said actually i'm team j jesse or whatever the girl was called i actually did use the exact same phrase you just used i was like i'm team thingy and she was like but she's so annoying she's so annoying and then i realized that i was being like a bit too like you have to be friends with this person so i reiterated my mother's message to me and i was

like but you must know that you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with because i think young people and especially young girls are always told to do things they don't want to fucking do and it is a consent issue of like i don't want to do it i don't want to do it so why do i have to do it like you obviously it's not okay to be mean but you don't have to spend time with anybody that you don't want to spend time with and that reason can be as simple as you don't like them like you can be so you have to be nice that's just a fucking rule but you can just not like someone and you don't have to hang out with them it's a consent thing i think we're still learning this today this is why like we were saying you know consent is how can you consent

when we don't exactly have a grasp of like feeling confident when it comes to consenting to different things and that's not to like infantilize ourselves but actually just to honor and acknowledge how little space we give ourselves and each other to decline an invitation or like say no to someone who's like pushing too far. Like there's just definitely a lot of work to be done there. There's definitely a lot of room there for us to feel like we're allowed to back out of things and say no. Yeah. Be nice. Be nice.

But be nice to yourself as well. Yeah. Goes without saying. But it doesn't. No. I do think it's really important. I do as well. And I actually really love the way that your mum

put that yeah because i think that's exactly it it's like you need to be kind to this girl because you're a kind person yeah but you don't need to play with spend time with anyone that yeah you don't owe anyone your time because also that's when you just teach women or young girls so early like to just put how they feel absolute last of the pile and i think sometimes there's a kind of um misplaced or like kind of misguided sense of selflessness that is attributed to an idea of like altruism or like being really generous and loving doing some kind of charity work totally and as women that is obviously like majorly amplified and that's definitely something i've internalized so deeply the idea of like i have to be completely selfless i don't want

anything i have to give everything to others and be a shell of myself which is why when you stand up for yourself and say look this relationship can't continue as it is is a really important moment for someone standing up for themselves yeah good at something really nice really nice really good whoa what is that wow give these girls a podcast i know i like that me too me too new i feel like we haven't really spoken about that before i like that i guess we haven't spoken about friendship in a while yeah we probably because whenever you say it i always say we always speak about friendship so maybe i shouldn't say that anymore i like it i like talking about friendship because i feel like it's i do too it's one of the biggest things in life in the world it really is yeah

yeah i think also why it hits so fucking hard friendship is because i think we underplay as a society how important and meaningful friendship is yeah like totally it's one of those things that almost it gets over they want it to go without saying they do actually they want it to go without saying it should not go without saying so important and it's not like almost there's an idea that like with your friends you go and have fun and like it's a fun extra fun thing but it's like no no it's like my life blood like it's kind of like it's deep it's dark it's a circle of girls like it is everything it is candles it's kind of like i always say to you like when we're kind of catching up or like something's happened i always

say like i feel like i need to kind of cut my head open and like dump my brain in your hands just so you can kind of get it where i've been and come back into it so i want to share everything i want to give you everything yeah same it's not just oh we'll go to the party together what outfit you wearing it's like there's that and then it's also it's so it's just so much bigger than anyone allows credit for like that's why it hurts so deep like that's why the idea of ex-friends friendship breakup whatever we call this it's like i'm sure you'll be clicking on it well if you're listening yeah you are unless it's just well well look what the cat dragged in you it's a big fucking topic and i feel like you fell for our trap you fell right into our hands what a moron bloody hell guys be a bit less predictable but i think that oh sorry go on if you don't hear from us assume the worst

i just the last thing i said was what a moron Ouch.