Goes Without Saying - female gaze: stressed, oppressed and poorly dressed

Episode Date: March 30, 2020

welcome back to Goes Without Saying! in this episode, we're talking about fashion and feminism. what's the relationship between our personal sense of style and the patriarchy? are we all just dressing for male attention? or can fashion be an empowering, complex act of defiance and conformity? join us (sephy & wing) as we investigate how our relationships with style have been shaped by the male gaze, insecurities, and pretty privilege. speak your mind on our instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. Hello and welcome back to Higher Priestess and welcome back to the Quarantine Diaries. Hello. It's going badly around here. Hi from quarantine. We are miles and miles apart.

And I would walk 10,000 miles. I really would, but I'm not allowed. But I can't. Boris said I can't. But I can't. There's a restriction in place. Quarantine Diaries and here we are talking about fashion. But I think this will be a good episode. We basically want to discuss all things self-representation and how far your ideal representation of yourself

is different from the way you actually, for example, dress and the way that actually others see you. Love that. Because I think quite often there's a big old gap between what we would like to look like and the reality. Definitely. And kind of also how the patriarchy plays in with this and how much your style is your style and how much that's influenced by the male gaze patriarchal constructs

of like beauty and how much it's like i wear this because i feel empowered it's like yeah but why do you feel empowered when you're wearing that investigate where do these thoughts come from totally who do you dress for we met someone recently no you can't you can't okay just shut that down just shut it down um no i was gonna say it well you can't i can't no i'll say it different way yeah um you put that in though that's funny okay well so many people say things like um oh like women dressed to feel empowered women dress for other women things like that but it's a bit like i know you think you do but you are lying to yourself i know you think you do but you are lying to yourself i think you're kidding yourself yeah if you think there's no impact

you're kidding yourself well everyone knows that there are benefits or repercussions for how they look uh-huh and you can play into privilege in different ways and yeah you can dip in and out do you believe in having a style just straight in do you believe in having a style like do you believe yeah do you believe that your style is your style um it's not anybody else's is it not no fascinating maybe you would think it is because my style isn't accurately um presented due to things that we'll get into i.e capitalism restriction accessibility but my own style is only my style no one has that style because it's like okay who has my um no one has my exact style of music or my exact style of comedy for example we just had a big argument because

oh yeah you've got us at an awkward moment we literally were like pause this for the podcast because we just had a slight disagreement you've explained no it's a major disagreement it won't be that good do you want to well do you want to explain well we were about to start recording here we go have seffy skewed version of events and then we'll come into the reality of mine don't worry i'll fill you in what happened from my end was i was just what i just fell down a hole when i basically erin was, shall we start recording now? And I said, okay, give me 15 minutes to get ready because I have just fallen down a hole of watching a YouTube compilation of one of the best people in the world, James Acaster.

Then I text Erin saying, do you know him? And then what happened from your end? Well, from my end, I'm thinking, okay, so from my end, let's go back to the beginning. If you haven't heard this before, Sefi has her own way of looking at the world, as we all do. But Sefi's is incredibly unique. I don't understand. Along with that, on top of that, she has, I don't know what she likes to call maybe a bad memory. But any conversation you've ever had with her, no offence, she's forgotten it.

I haven't't that is such a lie that's such a lie basically here's where the crux of the issue is the crux of the argument is we've spoken about james acaster countless times we've watched those exact compilation videos together in our old living room where we live together she probably forgotten that as well we've literally spoken about his podcast she had to cheat she had a cheek to say to me oh yeah i really like that podcast this is i know you do we've spoken about it oh my god it's so insulting and then she said oh i thought you wouldn't know him it's like sephie i know everyone fuck no that doesn't matter.

I was innocently in my own room after watching a hilarious compilation video going, oh my God, you know James Acaster, he's hilarious. You would love him. No, she thought I would hate him. We've watched him. Then she said, oh, I didn't think you would have liked him. Oh, because I'm obviously like, I have no sense of humour. Can we talk about when you said, we were talking about someone.

I'm so intrigued of what this is. And I... We overtext. And I said, this is just a really good example of like Sefi's bad memory. God. And also like bad judgment of kind of everyone else's intelligence. Ability. Like we've spoken before that Sefi thinks she's the smartest in the room,

which is a great mentality to have. But one time we were having a conversation over text about somebody and i said what a socialite and sephi replied saying it's basically someone with rich parents who professionally socializes and i thought erin had said what is a socialite i just misread it socialite and she's gone oh let me explain it for you in my own bedroom i'm like oh no no oh my god is basically this thing i didn't think she basically presumed that people don't know what she knows which is fine but it's sometimes insulting and also insulting that we've had a million and one conversations about something and she forgets but anyway don't worry there's one friend in this friendship and i'm just gonna um end that by saying i didn't mean any of that i was innocently saying oh my

god do you know a james acaster very normal thing to say promo for james acaster it would be a normal thing to say if we'd never spoken about him we've spoken about him probably more than like the majority of other people that we've spoken about really oh i can't i honestly i'm gutted i have no recollection i'm just i'm gutted anyway it doesn't matter if you think you're gutted imagine on my end i don't know what's going on i've got no idea even miles apart it's like what you can I... You can insult me. I don't know. I just didn't think of it. I just didn't... But you don't even remember it now, no?

No. So someone's wiping your memory. Something's going on here. Obliviate. Honestly, obliviate. Oh my God, what was that? Everyone was like, and who am I? And who are you?

Honestly, yeah, that's you. It's like quite frustrating. Do you think it's frustrating for you? I'm constantly being told, we spoke about this yesterday. And I'm like, huh? Dude, we did it. Honestly, it's the most confusing thing

to be hearing at all angles. Well, I've already said it about the TikTok as well, didn't I? I said, we've already spoken about that. I think I honestly us we probably

I probably say to you we've already spoken about that at least I would say like three times a week kind of the worst person to be friends with

the worst person to run a business with literally just like anyway what's going on like how did I get here like why am I in front of a laptop it i like every day i have to reintroduce

you yeah you're like hi i'm erin we live together oh dear kind of i'm short to her memory loss dory oh honestly dory yeah it's a bit of a dory say dory and it's quite sweet no it's really not sweet because dory's the most annoying person in the whole world so going back going back I think my style is only mine yeah what do you think I think or do you believe in a style I think my style is um like James Acaster's style oh god I'm joking I think we're leaving James Acaster in the past kind of a little plaid shirt kind of a little like mustard tie what a cute thing honestly a cutie. Floppy hair. Honestly a cutie. Do I think my style is my style?

I think my style has come from an amalgamation of so many people. But do you believe in a style? I think it's convenient that my style is sold in shops. Like, do you know what I mean? It's like my style is also, can be purchased by many other people that also identify as having the same style as me yeah but i think we've spoken about this a million times i don't think our style really

is sold in shops because i don't i know what you mean more often than not i walk into a shop that i love and think nothing to be seen of this none of this is me yeah it's very rare actually that i walk in and think oh this edit is solely this really flows with my style yeah so actually yeah you're right like you can buy this from there it's convenient oh yeah style part of my style is wearing jeans oh convenient like everyone wears them yeah yeah like half the western world is in a pair of jeans at the moment like obviously it's come from somewhere but 100% I think my style is an amalgamation of everything that i've ever yeah um come into contact with but it's only mine i kind of think there would be a few other people

with that would be able to be like that me and a few other people would like the same outfits for sure and have well you'd like the same outfits but that's not your your style yeah you wouldn't agree and disagree on everything that's totally unique to you Or even like I walk into a room and think, God, they've just styled this. That is it. That's the look. They've done it perfectly. Oh, what?

And you want their look? This is such a random reference. But have you ever seen that film, To All The Boys I Loved Before? Didn't like the film. Listen, we've spoken about it so many fucking times. This is a really good example. And I'm actually fucking glad you've said that

because now you've outed yourself as the forgetful person that you are yourself when have we spoken about that when have we spoken that you are when have we spoken about it so many times i can't even i can't even oh my god i'm remembering because we talk about noah santana of course yes yes yes i'm remembering do you know that have you ever seen that film it's like everyone's seen that i'm talking to the audience i'm talking to them as well have you ever seen okay right guys have you ever seen it collectively has everyone's seen that i'm talking to the audience i'm talking to them as well have you ever seen okay right guys have you ever seen it collectively has everyone seen we're on the same page but you were saying also to me so don't try and sneak out yeah i was kind of saying to you

when have you asked the audience a collective question that's english lit mine for you just kind of no no i can have an argument in the audience let me justify let me let me back up my point um but the styling in that film is bad the styling in that film is bad but there is one wall you know her bedroom wall yeah they've sold her bedroom so stunning and i always think that's it that's what i fucking want one day i'm gonna have a literally like a statement wall that's like birds and shit it's like so colorful and so stunning kind of like japanese vibes inspired but also very like western and colorful in that way and i kind of think that is my style and i and the fact that's in a film it's like yeah okay so

everyone loves that and that's not my entire style wrapped up but i always think okay so if that's the perfect room and it's there yeah that's the perfect room for me very convenient that the styling team of that film have chosen to put that yeah i mean yeah i completely get what you mean so i think it's convenient that my style probably aligns with about 100 million other people's yeah but i do think your style is all about it's part of it's your personality and that's only yours I do think people's style for the most part is only theirs because you can't replicate it you can make a good guess and be like I know they'd like that true but it isn't it's not wholly theirs do you know what I mean you could you could replicate a part of it but like a facet

or a small faction of their whole style but you could never tie up their whole style in a box and send it to them and it would be pristine. No, never. Because there's always a good thing going, I don't really like that. And even when we, like, you always pick outfits for me. I do. Which I love.

Yeah. Remembering things. Oh, you remember. I've, like, got it written on the back of my hand and, like, mentioned that she picks outfits. Oh, fuck. But you have picked outfits for me before and I've gone no no no no no not my style

so it's funny that people have different things but then you have nailed it because you did pick my graduation dress and I wasn't going to order it and I did really love it I do nail it often with you yeah you do but I always think people that do winning her back slowly by bit by bit throughout the thing I'm'm gonna be dropping little things

that we've done in the past cute little moments we've had do you remember moments we've shared that time when i said to you there's nothing i can't think of a single thing um or just i'm just gonna keep going you're so smart god you're the smartest person i know not including yourself yeah of course um one exception i always think i would hate to have a stylist because they wouldn't get me it would be horrific but i would also love to have like this is another thing i would love to have jonathan from queer i come in and just like do my whole hair and makeup and like just do his like work his magic that's what i'd love to have i wonder if you would you keep it like that I think you'd revert if he got rid of my fringe and like my look and he got rid of my

eyeliner do you know I mean if he did like a thing I would be like Jonathan like no you need to keep those things Jonathan no Jonathan Van Ness Jonathan no you're gonna have to hold it there Missy honestly JVN I can't even with you right now um but I would love to see what someone else would do on me do you know what I mean yeah do you not think like if Jonathan came in and he said to you like I just think like a blonde like blonde hair on you would be so great and then it yeah but I'm also not really that curious aren't you I'm kind of quite curious specifically because I love him so much i'm curious of what he would do but any other makeup person no no get away from me but here i would because i think

he's so amazing oh so it's more about him it's more just about jonathan from great i kind of want to meet him um no no but like someone that's really talented like that. Someone that really sees a look for someone. Has like a whole vision of style. I get it. But I would hate to have Bobby in. I love Bobby from Queer Eye who does the house. And him remake my house in his style. I think I would die. Because my room needs to be.

I would go absolutely nuts. I'd go bananas. I'd walk in and go, what the fuck have you done, Bobby? Honestly, there would be fists. There would be repercussions. It would come to blows he's like a really talented interior designer honestly take him to court like what were you thinking poor if tan tried to touch my stuff who let you in give me all your friends i wouldn give me my cake. Give me all your friends. I wouldn't mind Anthony,

like, revamping my fridge though. He's not vegan though. He would chuck, honestly, he would chuck butter over everything. Really, would he be like,

this just goes really well with like cream. Like, let's just add some cream to it. He's like, I'm just seeing like, a lot of cream for you. Yeah,

also he's quite like, I'm just seeing like, a rack of ribs. Yeah, I was gonna say, he's quite like, rack of ribs, man. Like, he's quite like i'm just seeing like a rack of ribs i was gonna say he's quite like rack of ribs man like he's quite like we're gonna do a huge leg of ham it's like i'm crying within the second anthony so don't we definitely feel like a um isn't it funny the like um ownership you feel over your own your own shit expression yeah did you get

so can we talk about school and having that ownership being stripped of you i.e having your makeup and things like that and wearing a school the biggest form of oppression you wouldn't have been able to have your nose ring but then again my nose it is a big part of your look now is it that's really funny because i got that quite recently i think well erin and our other friend alice who was also involved in the james a caster ordeal, they kind of forced me to go get my nose pierced. And I was like, no, no.

And then I did it. And I was like, no. Actually, that's actually really interesting to think about. Yeah. Can we talk about that for a minute? What, my nose ring? Yeah, because you were like, I really want to get my nose pierced. Like, I'm going to get it pierced at some point. And I've honestly wanted it pierced since I was like literally in year 11 like on and off it was

a thing on and off i was like yeah i want the nose ring little gold nose ring it's been kind of a thing but never enough and there was something holding you back do you remember what was holding me back you didn't want to get your nose ring because you thought i don't want it to make me ugly while i'm seeing this guy shut the fuck. That is too obvious who that guy is. Oh, fuck. That's way too obvious. Sorry. I just forgot there's only one point

that you get your nose. He's like, oh, wait, she didn't have her nose pierced on Monday and on Wednesday she did. That's bad. Too ugly as well as horrendous. Okay, let me say it again. Well, maybe that can go in

as if he's listening if he's listening to be honest that's quite sweet i don't want it to take away my pretty look pretty look the arrogance guys i'm no but remember you were like i know it's i know that that's a look that i align with but i'm scared in case it well i think there was there was a fear of literally putting a bit of metal into my face that's like okay you lose a bit of like femininity from it almost like you step into a different look you step away from a perceived prettiness and into a perceived like coolness it's more androgynous yeah sure and i remember being like i know i can pull it off when i'm like got my hair up like i've got a little outfit on i've got a look on um i know I can pull it off then. But when I'm in my pyjamas, like wet hair,

it's like, what? I've got fucking metal in my face. But then I made it better by saying, it's like a pair of hoop earrings. Yeah, which I wear. You've constantly got jewellery on. It's like, which I wear every day of my life. But also it's like, do you remember?

What's her name? Did you ever watch? We've like spoken about this loads of times. Here we go. No, we definitely, there's no way we could have spoken about this. Did you ever watch My Parents Are Aliens? Are you taking the piss? No, we haven't spoken about that.

We haven't spoken about that. There's no chance. Please don't make me hang up. What on earth would we have... Are you taking the piss? We've never spoken about My Parents Are Aliens. What possibly would we have spoken about? Wait, when would we have spoken about My Parents Are Aliens? We've definitely spoken about my parents aliens what possibly would we have spoken about um wait when would we have spoken about my parents aliens we've definitely spoken about it if you can't think of an exact occasion void okay i can't think of where or when we were because that's not

really relevant what is relevant is i know we've had the conversation and spoken about how they changed over the actors of sophie exactly so fuck you and i was so angry about it yeah okay well if you've ever seen to the audience there's a character in it called i think she's called mel if anyone remembers any hardcore fans of um my parents are aliens the niches show up all time um and she has loads of piercings in her face and she is the epitome of what i would never ever ever want to look like because she kind of scared me as a kid yeah you were also scared of tattoos child i don't i don't you are it's not even i don't love tattoos there's just it just couldn't be for me like they just kind of give me the heebie they give me the heebie jeebies yeah you're scared you've got a childhood fear it's because i used to have these nightmares about honestly the heebie

people chasing me around there's a whole thing we won't get into it we won't get into it. We won't get into it. Oh, we won't go into that. That's what's taking up the space in your memory. Just mess. All these childhood dreams, nightmares. Yeah, I think it's because I remember my dream so vividly, I can't remember my waking life. But what I find really interesting about your nose pissing is that you were desperate for it,

but you put up such a fight about getting it. And I think that is a really good example of like the internal um like conflict that you were having in yourself of what is more important to me to be pretty or hot or to be more my style or is my style not pretty etc etc totally totally that and it was a kind of that thing of like okay well i'm gonna do this but i've got you've got to be able to pull it off it's like what's fucking pull it off like what the fuck does that mean you've got to maintain a male attraction whilst having a more um i don't even think it's a masculine thing but um having literal metal in your face like that is to me it felt

quite extreme it's interesting that you talk yeah pulling it off i have such a thing with this and i've had this conversation with you all of my friends i've had this conversation with where they're like oh i really would love that but i can't pull it off and it genuinely infuriates me the most interesting bit of language the only reason you can't pull it off is because you're declaring to me now before you've even bought it that you can't pull it off so let's just end this here then it's obviously not your look you obviously don't like it that much let's leave it and then they go oh i do really like it and it was like i would i would if i was just a bit thinner it's just a bit like it's awful and it's like we're letting this rule our lives i'm not caught i can't do it i just can't yeah you people make me sick i have a short patience with something like that because it's

like do you like it or not then they're like yes yes i do and like well you obviously don't like it enough otherwise you would go for it can i tell a secret guys we did record this before and we're redoing it we fucked it wasn't that good and i was gonna say we spoke about this before but we didn't you you we did but you didn't hear it well also we did it before and it was kind of in the it was a bit hazy we weren't we weren't impressed yeah it was our first time using the computer system and we were confused we were shook so just we're just doing it again a few weeks later a few yeah yeah not even about three days like two days days are turning into weeks honestly they do something we spoke about last time was and we've

mentioned it obviously who do you dress for and dressing for the male gaze versus dressing for the female gaze and i think as a young as anybody as anybody who is a woman anybody you know what it's not even anybody who is a woman it's anybody who isn't a man yeah it's made to dress for men and i actually think i mean i see it all the time. But as we said, I don't want to say I hate men. No, I wouldn't say that. I think don't say that. I do have feelings about men. And I'm not upset about it. And you shouldn't be either.

Listen, it's just facts. And I'm not going to lie about it. I have my reasons. Let it rip. And, you know, we've all got our reasons but i have always been like unimpressed by men and i've spoken before about my youth because for the most part i i align um completely with a conventional um like standards of beauty yeah i learned from an early age that i could reject things quite plainly and face minimal

repercussions so now in my adult life not only because i've been with my boyfriend for like my whole adult life literally i don't necessarily dress for men but also i think it has allowed me to understand that i can opt in and reap the benefits freely and opt out incredibly freely and be you know somewhere out and about in public with dirty hair and no makeup in joggers and feel no type of way about it because i have the security of knowing that i'm all right anyway because that's what they told me for years so now it's something that i have to reject not something that is not choosing me do you know what i mean it's easier to reject something when you've had it

rather than be clawing after something for years and years. Exactly. And also... And when you already like partially conform anyway, it's like not even a rejection. It's like, oh, lucky that... I'm still white. Like, so I'm already winning the privilege.

Well, we've already spoken about pretty privilege. We spoke about it in the popularity episode. And I think that does play into style so much everything yeah because it's like okay so we can potentially reject some forms of like conventional style because pretty privilege allows us to and white privilege and skinny privilege and all these things allow us to still be conventionally attractive or whatever wearing potentially things that are not considered part i think um where you and i differ because we're both tomboy's as kids as we discussed in the in the base version of this yeah so we were both tomboy's as children um up into like not even children though up until like 14

i'd say yeah or like always had i mean it's so the I'm not like other girls trope. Oh yeah, well, let's talk about that. So I think our differences divide when we speak about this all the time. Your upbringing is very old school feminism. Don't shave, don't wear makeup, that sort of thing. Which I then later came to sort of not even reject. Just battled. Yeah. Discuss that for a bit.

So I was raised quite like old school feminist by my family. My family are quite sort of like hippie people. Yeah, you grew up in a tree house. Which I didn't. yeah discuss that for a bit so i was raised quite like old school feminist by my family my family are quite sort of like hippie people yeah you grew up in a tree house which i didn't yeah so then i kind of was there was no emphasis ever put on my looks my like sexuality any of these things was always put on like academic achievement cute and intelligence and like humor all of those things like likability blah blah blah but it also was a conscious rejection of um a feminine aesthetic yeah totally total rejection my mum didn't wear makeup no one my grandma doesn't really obviously doesn't wear makeup really do grandmas wear makeup one of mine doesn't one of

mine doesn't interesting so it's definitely a thing that they do yeah so my grandma doesn't she's very much like head of the household sort of like my family's very matriarchal basically and i think i had like a very strong rejection of like i want to wear makeup i want to shave i want to like have long hair like i definitely want to straighten my hair like blah blah blah that was definitely a battle in my family of like why does she want to straighten her hair like why does she care about that sort of thing it's like still a battle now if you go out looking conventionally attractive your family will have something to say about it

they'll be like why are you dumbing yourself down and i'm like i kind of i'm not disconnect there between understandings of women being able to be hot and smart it's kind of i'm running intellectual rings around you right as we speak literally that literally that yeah well also that's something i can't remember i said this in the other episode that i feel happy to i feel so free dipping in and out of um patriarchal standards of beauty and not um because my intelligence was something that was never questioned and that my um worth was not i was always told um i was made to feel beautiful as a child but i was also the smartest in the room I

was also top of the class so it was it was never a battle and it was never something that I had to choose one or the other yeah so I think I actually have the privilege of not think I don't worry about my style no I don't worry about the way that I look and I don't worry about whether um I look too pretty or not pretty enough is it conscious though do you consciously think not at all about your style no and I was gonna say why i feel so happy about it and why i know that it is my style and i don't dress at all for the male gaze is because i'm aware of my exploitation and i will not be so stubborn as to watch others benefit from that and not join in love it absolutely do you know what i mean like i'm not gonna shoot myself in the foot by rejecting femininity yeah and then no one wins well this is the thing it's like well if i can go

into a bar and get served pretty close to the top i'm gonna use the privilege that of my conforming there yeah i'll do it i'm gonna stand at the fucking back and wait i'm gonna know that i can get served pretty much first i'll be i'll be near the top of the list. You know what is a perfect example? I won best looking female at the end of sixth form. How ridiculous. And within a year, I got full marks on my access course. Fuck life. So don't tell me I have to just be one or the other because I can be everything.

That to me is like, sorry, we're not dumbing. Don't ever tell me I'm dumbing myself down. As you say, I'm running rings around you. Yeah. But also just shows me how fucking corrupt life is like that we get to choose best looking female and best looking i remember at my school there was an end of school like a ball thing and it was like yeah we all vote superlatives yeah but it wasn't really superlatives the teachers chose the words that we'd be asked at the end of school and

one of them was best bum best awful yeah that's insane because we came up with well i didn't but the committee came up with all the yeah there was also one this was really horrific and i refused to vote in this one because i was cool even back in the day yeah i didn't vote on any of them i was so absent that i didn't know that the poll took place how bad is that no that's fine who went to sick for bullshit not me i don't know what happened there yeah i don't know what i just didn't go to sick form i literally oh i know what happened i just wasn't there i was elsewhere i had places to be i just didn't go to so many lessons i literally me and my friend would just go and like smoke i was on a report that i had to sign and it said if you don't if you miss one more day you'll be kicked out it is crazy that in sick form i think

people just go you know what these teachers are dumbos like i'm not good i'm not gonna be taught but i'm not gonna be patronized by these people in my sixth form everyone was pretty much turning up i was like a meme i kind of assumed that i wasn't there so no one's there it's like if a tree falls down in a forest did it happen because you didn't if a lesson goes on and you're not there didn't even happen well i didn't see anyone there well you weren't there no one even not there. It didn't even happen. Well, I didn't see anyone there. Well, you weren't there. Yeah, like, no one even went. No, you just didn't go. But one of them, one of the questions they asked was most likely to be homeless.

And it's like, obviously, you know who's going to win that. Oh, yeah, literally, Erin. Literally me. But it's like, what a ridiculous thing to say because obviously everyone votes for, like, the weirdo. Well, that's awful. It's horrific. The teachers came up with it. Yeah, the votes for, like, the weirdo. Well, that's awful. It's horrific. And the teachers came up with it.

Yeah, the teachers said, most likely to be homeless. Best bum. Best bum. Should have been a couple. That's so embarrassing. My friend won that with this boy that she knew. It was awful. Oh, my God.

And they're all putting up. They went up together. Everyone's going, kiss, kiss, kiss. It was awful. Did they? Did they kiss? No, they were just friends. It was awful.

Oh, my God. I think she actually quite liked him but he didn't really like her but it was awful that's gutting so what are your thoughts on dressing for the a male or female gaze who do you dress for i think that so much of our style is like entrenched in the patriarchy that it is impossible to separate what is my innate style and what has been informed by the patriarchy because well i don't think style could ever be innate because you're not born with an inherent sense of style no there's not a baby going get that bib away from me yeah i think a lot of your likes and dislikes um don't think many

are to be honest i'm no i think i find it hard it's kind of like if you fight that argument for me that if someone fought the like nature debate. Kind of your mum was an alcoholic and now you like alcohol. True, but that's like in your blood. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That's what, yeah, the kind of psychology lessons. But I think your actual style is not something that you're born with.

It's something that you assess the world around you, the material world, and you decide from what you want to align and decide where you want to fit yeah think oh which box do i want to go and which box yeah so what box do you think you fit into what box do i fit into oh my god what who do you dress for who do i think i dress for i think you're absolutely dressing for other people because what what are the chances that when i'm at home i don't wear makeup makeup, I don't dress up on my own. You do. Where? No, I don't. You've got makeup on right now.

Because I'm FaceTiming you. And you put that on for me. Cute. Cute. Date night. No, it's also just like I thought I should because I literally looked... When he still dresses up for you. When you dress up for a FaceTime for you with your friend,

with your podcast companion. See, I do. That's, I dress the same on and off and everything. You do. I actually think you, actually, I think me and Stella were talking about this, about you. Bitching about you. There we go, yeah.

It all comes out now. No, no, no. There's a huge divide between us today. I'm surprised you actually remember me enough to talk about me when I'm not there. No, we were talking about, you are one of the only people i know that like puts makeup on and gets dressed like in a in a way that you would like you you would like you would almost like curl your hair just to sit in the house yeah which i don't know anyone else that would do that like really you would like put makeup on, get like your hair nice and then like watch Harry Potter all day.

Fuck, we've got an inside joke going because someone... Basically the most offensive thing ever, you explain it. I don't even know how I can say this. Someone essentially said, we were both, so in a conversation with someone raving about Harry Potter, they were saying, oh my God, I'm watching this one at the moment. And I said, oh, we've only just recently watched them, Jack and I, all the way through. So I'm probably not going to,

he won't let me watch them all from the start, you know, to the end. Again, we just watched them like last week or something. And they said, oh, but you're at home every day. You can just sit at home watching Harry Potter. All day. And that's when I thought, listen, I need to show you lot that i'm out and about because i'm not having this yeah that's kind of like oh that's what you think of me it's like

from then on i'm taking a picture of every tube i get on every bus i sit on every person i meet with anything i do is going straight on that instagram story for the next it's like i'm gonna spend the next few weeks gathering evidence god yeah and they, that's crazy. And they obviously didn't mean it. But to me. It went somewhere deep. It went somewhere deep enough to make an inside joke about it with you guys on the podcast. It's kind of like, oh, you think I watch Harry Potter all day. You think I'm in bed all day watching Harry Potter.

Also, it's like, that is my dream life. Like, don't come at me. Well, there we go. Yeah. So what if I was? Sorry that you're so jealous that I could watch Harry Potter all day because I work from home. Exactly. Yeah. But don't come at me with that this is my thing is i feel so comfortable in the way that i present myself i get i completely agree that of course there is um always the undeniability of you dress for everybody else because you dress to let people know who you

are you dress to let people know how you are. You dress to let people know how you see yourself. Totally. And what you like, what you dislike, who you are. And it is an expression. It's completely an expression. But it's also, I find it interesting that I would dress very differently if I was going on a date or if I was sitting at home watching Netflix. So it's like, okay, so it's not really myself then, is it?

You're presenting a very different image for both. But I also think there's different parts of self in the sense that i'm not going to dress how i would now if i was swimming in the like do you know i mean there's a level but that's because your makeup's going to come off well exactly but you wouldn't wear something that you would you would on a date that you wouldn't to netflix because when you watch something on netflix you kind of want to be in minimal as possible for yeah for the activity kind of same for a day whereas that's not what you would do if you were going on a jog do you know what i mean like there's there's a sense of practicality about things as well totally but i find it interesting that i spend a lot more effort getting ready for to to meet someone like that you think what would they

want me in yeah or it's like i'm just going to present this version and for me going on a dog walk i'm just going to have my hair up and I'm gonna be in no makeup and essentially in clothes that I've been wearing for like 10 days straight it's just a completely different did I tell you about when I went to Amsterdam most recently I just like last year now um you probably have I've forgotten so tell it again we went for like four days and I wore the same thing for four days I didn't that's not bad to change no I know but as in it's quite funny because it was it was layers it was December and I wore jeans a top a top over the top of that and a jumper and the same hat and the same coat and the same sunglasses it was like everything it was a whole look it was it was a look and i wore it

like five times for the whole time but i kind of think that's my that's how i do style though like you know this i really go in rotations of one look oh my god yeah you really do i really rotate one look like i find a look that i really like you know how like kind of a cartoon character has a set uniform that's very much you yeah so i remember in terms of like uniform and like me having a rotational look I remember when we used to get ready for a night out at uni we'd always joke about me and be like right go get your uniform on go get your uniform on like it was such a uniform like I would it would always be what was it I don't even know like variation of like a skirt jean like some kind of jean flared jeans and like

some kind of like bando situation or like very small top and then like big hoops hair up look potentially a headband always your hair up look always a hair up look i don't know what's happened to me now i'm such a hair down look now it's really interesting because it's so long at the moment yeah which is also weird on my style because i've always been a short hair person now i have long hair it's a weird like identity crisis of like now i'm a girl with long hair it's like huh yeah i've always been like a short hair girl do you know whose look i fucking love this is crazy yeah as in short hair i know you hate this because i know we've spoken about that you hate this so you know the film tangled have you seen the yeah. When she, Rapunzel, gets her hair cut really short by Flynn Rider.

I love it when it goes like short and like that whole vibe that she has when it's like brown and short and like kind of spiky. Yeah, I've never understood. I always think that looks fucking cool. I mean, I've never been able to pull that look off ever. I don't know if you've ever tried it. Never tried that spiky bob. But I always think, God, what a great look and that's kind of what i would love to be able to rock but it's like what i'm a long haired well why don't

you cut your hair well because i kind of like it but it's also just like that's my yeah i know i really like i really love having long hair but it's the first time in my life i've ever had long hair which is a whole weird other bit that plays into your identity as well i feel that's funny do you not think hair plays into your identity like length of hair i think your hair plays into your identity massively does it in what way more than anyone i know really well you won't leave the house without your hair no i literally don't which is a huge thing for you that's hilarious yeah it really is how hilarious is that and but i always i spoke about this with alice as well that when we met her she had very long hair but the whole way through time that we've known knowing her she's had really short hair and even when her hair grows out i still identify her as the short-haired girl like

even when it grows to the same length as our other friend who probably has the same length hair but i think of her as having long hair it's just it's so interesting of when you first meet someone that's the impression you have of their hair. It holds. Well, I still think of you in your denim jumpsuit. Do you remember? I love that look. I love my denim jumpsuit.

That was a uniform. You don't wear that anymore. No, I don't really wear that anymore. But it really was a uniform. Yeah, a uniform. I used to wear this denim jumpsuit. It was actually really cool. It was kind of big, like...

Yeah, it was like a wide leg. Kind of very tight, a wide leg. Really thin denim, tight top tight top thick straps i remember it so well why don't you ever wear it anymore you've gone off of it yeah it's just not me anymore yeah kind of in like it's just not really my look anymore also it's difficult when it's winter because i'm what i have to wear something underneath it yeah that's not your look i'm just not i'm more of a like as naked as possible yeah as naked as pass but what about you what box would you put your style in like what what about you what box would you put your

style in like what's your style well who would you say is your like style influence we spoke about this the other day well it's changed since because I came to a realization that um a style that I love loved when I saw it still love it now and think I do it all the time is Mary Kate specifically in New York Minute if you want to take it to the next level. Cutting for Ashley. Ashley was really girly and preppy in that film. Oh got it okay so you got the Mary-Kate yeah. It's a scene where they're both looking into their wardrobes the camera is obviously in the wardrobe iconic teen look um and her wardrobe is so like clean and like pink and like pastels and like cute. Oh, I'm seeing it now.

And she's got clean hair. And Mary-Kate is like kind of bra everywhere. Like everything's dark. Stunning. And that's a look. Yeah, the coolest look. She looks cool. She's my style icon.

Like honestly, 14 year old. But it's a really cool look. Oh, yeah, it's really cool. And I do it every day yeah that is kind of your style kind of like um messy but put together yeah it's kind of very put together but messy kind of effortless effortless effortless with a load of effort efforted effort effortless i was also saying this that so in our house in brighton there were five girls and i feel like i could tell if you

laid out five outfits for me i could pick exactly whose outfit they were even if i didn't if i didn't recognize the clothes like people do definitely have very distinct looks yeah like i could if i saw an outfit laid out for you i would know that it was for you 100 for sure yeah for sure that's why i think everybody has their own style and yes it's an amalgamation of everything that they've seen and everything that they would like to be but it's still like very unique to them it's not something you can replicate but it is something you can identify but then there's like so have you ever met someone oh my god yeah i just thought of something i can't say the name but there's someone that i know you said to me they have no style and everything

they do is copying someone else just slightly wrong totally and that makes me sound absolutely atrocious but i do i stand by it no no but it comes from because it's the biggest situation guys i think it is a good observation of that person because well this person yeah anyway doesn't matter i think you can tell with people when there is a genuine style and when you watch someone's evolution let's say if you wanted to call it that um when you watch someone's evolution and it literally is shifting from group to group to match the style to match the entire aesthetic you can just as in when someone is essentially shape-shifting yeah literally shape-shifting literally shape-shifting and it's just disingenuous shape-shifting would be so fun wouldn't it shape-shifting yeah it's like um kind of mcgonagall perhaps a pocket watch

oh my god i love her she's honestly the best i i think that would be if i if you had a superpower would it be shape-shifting like do you think no really what would it be i think it would be if i if you had a superpower would it be shape-shifting like do you think no really what would it be i think it would be pausing time maybe just pausing no rewind or just that kind of time control yeah that's pretty good it's a good one like um bernard's watch oh really don't know what that is it's an old show it was on i think maybe cbbc i wasn't really a cbbc kind of kid but, it does ring a bell, maybe. You're like, we've spoken about this. I was the main actress in it. I watched About Time the other day

and this actually does play into style massively because me and my housemate were kind of watching it and we were having a bit of a joke about it that Rachel McAdams in that film is so heavily stylised, but in the worst and most kind of patriarchal, I'm not like other girls way I've ever seen in my life and I actually found it hysterical to watch like there's one scene where the man in it the like the ginger man he's like to her I love your fringe and she's like no no

like it's too short and there's like this weird thing that's going on with her where she's like I'm like brown haired so I'm not pretty I'm kind of like a little mouse cardigan girl like it's just what is it's honestly like what is happening like what is this style what is this style it's like the most insecure it's pick me it's pick me twitter yeah and it's like what if you're at a Kate Moss exhibition and you've got little short fringe like little short hair and you're wearing like a button-up dress and like little flat shoes the i'm not like other girls thing has always infuriated me and we're thinking of doing a podcast on it so if you are keen on that please let us know i mean it's coming anyway but whether you like it or not and we promised the parents episode parents and divorce episode is coming very soon we've had loads of requests for that. Yes.

Maybe we should do that next. That is a good one. It is a good one. It's quite funny because I've come back home because of Corona and I'm literally in my childhood home. So the memories are flooding back. Well, I was thinking and I keep thinking and I was saying to Jack the other day, I feel so, just so fucking grateful that for this happening to me in my life,

this has happened now when I'm 23 and I'm with Jack rather than when I was young and in an abusive situation at home. Because there are a lot of kids now and they can't even escape to school. You are so right. So that was really getting to me. It's just, there's so many people

who are compromised by this situation. And it's, I also realised why I was feeling extra bleak yesterday. I don't know if you guys saw i did a story some of you would have caught it of me saying everything's so bleak i can't focus on anything blah blah blah with corona is just taking up my mind yeah and then i realized last night um when i was spiraling to jack i was like shit i'm coming my period oh my resolved. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Yeah, I love it. Thanks. That was just the extra like knife in the coffin.

I'm on my period too. Are you? Everyone I know is on their period right now. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this, guys. I hope you've enjoyed this because I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, me too.

It's been good. Good old chat. Bit of talk about fashion during the apocalypse. Yes, that's what everyone wanted to hear. Everyone was asking us, begging us, when are you going to talk about fashion

with this virus going on? And here we are. We finally answered your prayers. Everyone was dying. But what do I wear during the apocalypse? Whilst the word is ending, I can do one on a queue. True though, mood though.

But now you can. Now you can. Now you can not question your style, dress for the male gaze. Dress for you. You've got at least three weeks to dress for you. Or to not get dressed at all. But I also think if you dress for the male gaze just for you you've got at least three weeks to dress for you or to not get dressed at all but i also think if you dress for the male gaze and i think if we're being honest with ourselves we all do in some aspects don't have any guilt about it like genuinely we were plonked on this fucking planet and it's a hellhole just

go for it never be guilty about anything my nan always says no child asks to be born you didn't ask to be born to this weird old world and more specifically no child asks to be born. You didn't ask to be born to this weird old And more specifically, no child asks to be born here. Yeah, exactly. I'm born here? It's like, okay, so. I hate it here. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad here. But, um, so never feel any guilt. Thank you guys so, so much. Please leave us a review.

I will not ask again, joking I will in the next episode. Go on to Apple. I know you all listen on fucking Spotify. But download Apple Podcasts and go leave us a review because, I mean, we want to get on the fucking charts. next episode go on to apple i know you all listen on fucking spotify but download apple podcasts and go leave us a review because i mean we want to get on the fucking charts we love to see it honestly and you know i hate to see the same old 20 reviews we had last week thank you guys so so much right speak to you later guys speak to you soon in the parents and divorce episode oh we're preparing from now

I think I think it will be um I think well it'll be something cool right see you then