Goes Without Saying - feminine rage, infatuation & jealousy: podmas #2

Episode Date: December 2, 2023

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ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Jingle, jingle. Jingle bell, jingle bell, jingle bell, Sapphire and Wing. Sapphire and Wing's Podmas season is back here she goes episode two what has a ring to it here i wonder nothing has a ring to it right nothing yet we could do some podmothering father podmas mother yeah father podmas mother that's good yeah that that sounds perfect why didn't i think of that why did not why did we not think of that someone's definitely done that before oh god we're the pioneers of i can't remember what you said

right should we get straight into this yeah i mean i'm excited that this is a topic this is a topic and i know it's something we've spoken about already because i kind of can't go a day with my life without talking about it but it's kind of elephant in the room it's always there girls girls girls girls girls girls girls girls women women women women who are nuns women women in prison women that's a funny little easter egg that is a real easter egg a christmas video that we had um yeah go watch our video with the tarot reader if you want to know yeah if you want to know more about women women goosebumps i've got goosebumps i've given myself shivers talking about women but it's so true she's really on no she's on something because it's fucking right nothing gives you shivers like women and i think that's the crux she's so right

merry cruxmas that's good now now Merry Cruxmas. That's good. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. See, when you start to oil yourself up, you start to get limber. Come on, guys. It just flows out.

We're finding the problem of spirit. Okay, we're in. We're in. Merry Cruxmas. One and all. Merry Cruxmas. Yes. That's good.

Merry Cruxmas. No, wait. What is it? Merry Cruxmas. Wait, let me get it. Let me get it. Merry Cruxmas, yes. That's good. Merry Cruxmas. No, wait, what is it? Wait, let me get it, let me get it. Merry Cruxmas, you filthy animal. You filthy animal. I like the bit where he goes,

are you smooching with my brother? And then it's like, you've been smooching with anybody. Everybody. Someone, someone. And then it was the guy's name and he's wearing a badge saying it. And even Lenny.

Even Joe. Even Joe. And he's name and he's wearing a badge thing and even lenny even joe even joe and he's like he's he's a lie i also love the bit when it's like get down on your knees and tell me you love me and then he's like i i love you and then he's like you gotta do better than that and then he's like, you gotta do better than that. And then he goes, I love you. Why is this game so fun? Because, again, it's about the rhythm. It's a play-by-play retelling of Home Alone. Two. Lost in New York.

Nothing more festive. So good. It really is. It's the melody. Get down on your knees and tell me you love me. Very good. Very good. Very good.

And a happy new year. You're straight on the nice list. well done thank you performance of a lifetime performance of a lifetime okay so first episode we're coming in well second episode i guess but first first episode of value the assembly's over into lesson one guys someone yeah good that just kind of took me back we're finding our group we're finding our group a couple of episodes and it's break time break time i can't wait for break i can't wait for break i would eat all of my lunch at break oh my god every time break for me was just like scavenger hunt yeah like and lunch was dinner and lunch was lunch and then second break was also lunch yeah yeah and then i would come home for more for lunch yeah yeah good time to go right so the topic in hand feels like a bit of a nostalgic topic because i feel like it kind of

it was something i spent a lot of time um about in my youth, in my younger years. Yeah. And it feels like there's a real nostalgic headiness of the topic for me, I think. Don't you think? Just the idea of almost the girl that came before you, you need to analyse her and figure out. I almost feel like when you, as a a young woman are jealous of another young woman that's you're actually in love with her yeah you're actually in love you're gay i don't um disagree i don't doubt it well i think more so just the idea that you it's a real moment where

you see somebody else through really loving eyes like you almost create this vision of like if this is a person that is so valid and so perfect in every way how do i become them and do i hate them or do i love them yeah and i think the only universal truth in all of those experiences is that regardless of whether you love or hate her you absolutely in that moment are really acting out of hatred for yourself that's the that's the horrid bit of what that's when like um an admiration becomes jealousy and like tips over into like a negation a negative thing because it's like infatuation is stunning i think infatuation is um a divine place it's when it tips over into like and then for therefore i am not worthy therefore i'm disgusting this person is on a pedestal i saw a really cool thing who was saying

this who i don't know what someone was talking about pedestals and they were like that's the thing about pedestals you can easily just tip them over tip them over who did say that i saw the same thing which is concerning i don't know who it was who knows probably something bad if we've both seen it we've just been in battle the place is on the internet yeah i know who knows where we've been i can't retrace my steps around but yeah no it's true the pedestal is destined to fall but it's like pedestals do you know what's good about pedestals they're flimsy you can tip them over um because it's like they are fake that is the thing like you go to a museum have you ever seen a fucking pedestal you're scared of that thing you're gonna tip over the big sculpture that's

on it so true they're not sturdy things you can't afford to do that i'm saying that yeah what's that though that is a big question mark where did that come from yeah it is a clever point um but it's totally that it's totally the perspective because it's so easy to get that perspective on somebody else to look at someone with that infatuation and almost like study all of the ways that they are so perfect that experience feels so foreign and almost impossible i think for most of us growing up to do that to ourselves yeah it's like we really have um kind of opposite lenses it's like can you hear this banging? Not really. It's Lizzie opening and shutting a door a million times.

Lizzie. It's like all of our doors are like, I don't know, our house kind of expands and like shrinks in the heat. So in the winter, no one can open any doors. Like it's like our house is great in the summer. Oh, I would have thought it would be the other way. But like we get locked in rooms quite often and like we start banging our hair open. Help me! But the bathroom door, sometimes you get stuck in the summer the other way but like we get locked in rooms quite often and like we like stop banging the bathroom door sometimes you get stuck in the bathroom bathroom oh that's not good like an old house yeah yeah same here but it's normally worse in summer i would have thought

because i thought that was when the wood expands well that's when i lived in london i couldn't open my windows in summer real issue because the wood had expanded they're perfect for the winter but this house is great for summer it's built built in summertime i guess yeah summertime house yeah but in the winter we always we get stuck like you go to the toilet like you have a bath and it's like that's not good that's a real nightmare like when you're in someone's house yeah real bad moment yeah like it's fine it's like oh i live here whatever yeah it's bad it's like you don't want to be visiting but like imagine you've had like quite a steamy bath like it's kind of it's like hot final destination it's horrible final destination yeah it's final destination

yeah but don't you think so easy to pick up the these rose colored lenses and put them on literally anyone else but yourself it's the easiest we've been kind of um groomed to do that since birth essentially like we've been given um sort of figures of perfection as as weapons essentially to hate ourselves our entire lives like that's pretty much what young women are told to do and it's also particularly hard not to just because it then feeds into that kind of survival instinct of like okay i need to be aware of my threats i need to figure out how i can be the fittest to survive yeah and then also kind of like i hate to say it you know what i'm gonna say but like with social media where you have literally the most stunning girls on the

planet presenting their lives in a way that is often like really shiny and beautiful it's really hard to keep that perspective and like be grounded in the sense that like you're just valid as you are as a human being when you're constantly being fed like so much perfection yeah i know that's a really like basic point but i i actually don't think you need much much more nuance yeah because also that kind of is that simple like when people start with the whole spiel of like social media is fake social media is fake it's the classic thing that we've said a million times where it's like you can go and watch a horror movie and you know that they're actors and it's you know that it's quite and quite fake this isn't

real this isn't really happening why are you so scared though why is your heartbeat going because you can't tell the difference between real and fake you can have all the context of this girl doesn't really look like that this girl's life really isn't that it's a highlight reel blah blah blah when you're looking at it that stuff did also happen like even though it was a curated shot of the party it's a it's her best angle at the look and all of the stuff it's like i can't tell i'm then don't have also the picture of her sitting on the toilet that night all i'm seeing is even if she's faking it she's faking it in a really amazing way good for her yeah in that photo even if i would have been miserable there it looks really good it looks really great it looks really she's putting on a great show if that's the only thing she's doing

miserable with a million pounds this girl that has a million pounds or whatever so like try me let me just see i would love to know why don't i just try it out and see how i feel with a million pounds you know it's fake but it also still hurts do you remember like your first experience of this of what of jealousy yeah like maybe like have you ever had it where like there's kind of one person in mind and they kind of like they're kind of a kind of a bit of a trigger like they're a point of tension for you for a bit because i remember being really young and kind of being set as like um you do not want me as your enemy girl that's like almost like for whatever reason the dynamic has been established that we are in competition that's

terrible and i was i was still in primary school yeah that's horrible nine or ten it's very young it's not nice insanely young yeah for young women in what way like academically socially like what ways were you in competition just in all ways i think in all ways i think there was an awareness of like um how we looked which is crazy to be nine ten years old i mean that is rank it was definitely like about um like a prettiness of these children of these girls actually insane yeah that's really that's really young i think to have an awareness of prettiness oh definitely like i don't think i even really knew of the concept of like i knew that i thought ashley tisdale was pretty oh my god but i never think i think the only reason i started that in

myself um was in puberty it was definitely before puberty i think yeah yeah really how horrid is that actually no it's actually sick thinking about it it's pedophilic it's actually no it's totally pedophilic thinking about if they're pretty or not yeah pretty is hand in hand with sexual really no totally it totally was it's essentially who's the hottest nine-year-old here it's disgusting which is crazy and i think actually like there's a why i think that one was quite um i don't want to be too specific not this person's really in my life anymore but we were so we were friends i think that's also the big kind of crux it's obviously like we were operating in the same friendship group we were spending a lot of time together we were close friends this is nine-olds. I know. Let the girls play with their little fucking dog houses. No, let them play and be cute together.

I don't know why I had a dog house. But this one kind of, I think it sticks in my mind now, or like I find it interesting now, because we were quite opposite in a way. Like I was like quite dark, like I had brown hair, brown eyes. Like there was... Like a girl. Yeah, she was a blondie and she was beautiful.

But we, it was obvious that we were looking at one another desiring what the other person had that they couldn't get which is crazy to be nine years old yet sick but i also yeah i don't know how much yeah so did you have a way that like were you aware of that as a nine-year-old yeah i knew we were um but did you have an awareness we were the ones to watch but did you have an awareness of like i'm feeling competitive with her or did you have a thing of like i hate that bitch probably both probably both probably both like there was a resentment there that i probably couldn't have articulated at nine years old yeah but i also definitely felt envious and

I think as well like at the time there was an awareness of like um I don't know oh I don't know I think it's kind of it's funny like I feel like we see a similar thing I mean this is the kind of thing that will never go away but I feel like something that kind of plays into it now is the idea of like your um your color analysis or your kibbe body type or these sorts of things like the ways that we've got to do an episode on this bollocks i'm seeing as well uh boy pretty or girl pretty have you seen that oh my god this world is getting more grim by the day i know i'm seeing a lot of taylor swift not in her colors versus taylor swift yeah and the ways that we're like categorizing um our like validity of like what we look like it's it i totally get that there's like groups of people that

really enjoy like looking into that sort of thing and like looking for um kind of like the social patterns and like just who i find it interesting totally but for me personally at least right now it's not something that i think i would want to or like have a desire to look into too much because i would totally use it to make myself feel miserable almost to highlight the ways that i feel like i'm lacking so like oh great i'm boy pretty but like i would love to be girl pretty one day you know that sort of thing or like oh well i'm a i'm a soft spring but what if i wanted to be a deep winter one day like almost like it it highlights a gap for me personally it's all about the gap that's exactly therefore it's like how can i celebrate being a certain type of um body type but like i also like the others so what does that

mean for me sort of thing and i'm sure there are people who don't feel like that. Marketing, marketing, marketing. Totally. Money, money, money. And I'm sure there's like a, I think a minority group of people that can like really use that to like, maybe like limit their spending or like focus on the clothes that they enjoy or like use it to your advantage. But that's not me

that's not me for you to limit your spending for the detriment of like pigeonholing women into like these are the colors you wear you um i'm telling you now from a place of authority you're a cool winter so is this person this person this person winter i'm not taking that shit like that's actually fucking by design that's why though i find that the relationship that i had to that girl and i think it's funny because i feel we haven't spoken in years but i feel like she would tell the story in a really similar way like i feel like that experience that we were having was really shared and mutual do you want to get back in contact with her at any point oh my god she actually copied my bio a while ago shut like

word for word like my instagram bio is weird copy the bio something we've experienced quite a few times we have a few people copied something copy some things but you know but that's really and that that was a bit um that was a bit of a moment what was the bio i can't remember which one it was i've had a few kickers i've had a few good ones i remember yeah i've had some i've had some good um some strong moments some greatest hits i remember when we first started the podcast i had not your type with a little smiley face and a few people had that and that was cute and that was a big moment for me i think as a people pleaser to explore what it meant for me to be confident in my own way and not need the validation of other

people that was what i was going with the art form of the bio not your type smiley face but it actually if you're looking to um get people into your dms i think that's a good one like if you're looking to find um a sexual partner on instagram maybe try that one because it encouraged a lot of messages about like you know who says yeah you are my type like that sort of thing or like responding to us sending your own photo to you being like you're 100 like who said that sort of thing so i i think if you're looking for um some romance in your life and that sounds romantic to you go for that but yeah she copied so yeah that's not nice that's not a nice time no that's terrible yeah i don't think she would tell the story in the same way then well she definitely doesn't think we're still in comp competition that's not giving i don't know oh i don't like

to say a thing but i don't know i i just have i am extending love to everyone that was at my primary school if you went to my primary school hey out there shout out you guys but competition's crazy i do think like there was also a boy involved obviously there always is nothing to turn women against each other like a man like a boy just the competition just the competition ups it's horrible i have a whole story acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay.

These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer, and we are a part.

Find a Field Guide to Gay Animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com about um someone being very competitive with me recently okay i can get i can give you this basically it was something i experienced really recently um and it was another kicker this was just i just honestly i haven't experienced this kind of thing in a while like going into someone basically entering a room which i'm in and just immediately viewing me as competition when i was a hundred percent going in there like oh my

god like i'm gonna be a new friend it was actually like oh my god if anything you were actually legitimately viewing it as a networking situation to meet a friend in a specific well i was actually thinking it was okay so this happened in bristol i live in bristol my friend lives in bristol this one of our friends was there and he was like okay my friend is going to join and i thought perfect this girl lives in bristol and i was saying to my friend that lives in bristol you should be mates with this girl yes this would be perfect if you're mates with this girl great inning yeah it's perfect great thing to have um so she came in with a different but she didn't get the memo no no she missed the break i don't

know what happened i assumed that she fancied my friend in some way the guy that had invited her i honestly have no idea maybe she thought they're meeting one-on-one i don't know what the environment was but it was horrible it was actually so horrible no one has been this rude to me in a while mean spirited it was it i felt like it felt like school i felt like kind of the loser that no one wanted it was crazy which wasn't luckily my experience at school but i felt like i was in a teen movie actually but so she came in we were all playing pool you know as you do i was losing losing losing making hitting the wrong balls into the wrong holes. She's having a great time.

Having a whale of a time. Yeah, let her live. This girl arrives. She hugs my friend, the guy that had invited her. And we all kind of go over to be like, hi. And she completely blanks. Completely blanks. And we were like, oh, okay, we'll give them a minute to say hi.

Settle in. I've got three friends. Maybe overwhelming. Two other friends with me as well. Two girls. She's coming on her own. She's coming on her own.'s maybe a bit nervous after a few minutes i go over i was like hi i'm seffy this is blah blah and this is blah blah they said their names and she literally looked at us and she was like yeah i'm not gonna remember that seffy's got a rude look on her face right now by the way i feel like the facial expression

is very important it's kind of wanting to roll your eyes to their face sort of thing she's like yeah i'm not gonna remember that and i was like she's angry and i immediately was shocked and i was like oh i'm sephie kind of repeated it this is yeah let's try again rewind let's try that again shall we and she kind of wondering how this happened my friend then the friend that she was meeting she basically just didn't speak to us the whole night and he went to the toilet at one point she just went straight down looked at her phone i went over and i was like just trying to talk to her just trying to be like basically you've come to a pub and being friendly warm and friendly spoke to her she was obviously just so hostile and

rude he came back and she was like oh my just so rude and hostile and he came back and she was like i can't believe you just left me on my own and it's like i don't know what's going on here like it was just so so i actually it was the passive aggression was flying around the room and i was really thinking about it for days to come actually i was i'm actually still thinking about it this was probably about a month ago now i was really just thinking about like the ways in which women enter rooms as competition and i just have no i haven't because i really only see my friends who i'm not in competition with meeting someone that's new in a social environment like that where they come in with hatred for you of just like striking immediately from the introduction of hello belitt of just like i'm striking immediately from the introduction of hello

belittling of like i'm not gonna remember that you're not worth a moment of my time turn the back it's like oh my god like you actually you're viewing me i i guess i think there was a competitive angle of like i think she must have thought we were all competing for our friend which i have to say absolutely not um so it must have come from that angle but it was just it was very confusing and i think it really made me think about the way that women view other women like either you're on their team or you're not on their team and oh it was i just think what we've done to women in groups is horrible so sad i also think like it's interesting on one level it's like okay be you know it's a sad state

of affairs when you walk into a room and you feel the threat and you meet this girl sephie and you're like oh my god she's trying to fuck this guy whatever blah blah blah but also speak to me for one second you'll realize absolutely not but also then the added layer of like kind of expressing that publicly and being quite um if not proud like at least just quite clear in the way that she felt about you like she wasn't trying to be friendly in any way neutral yeah so i think the tendency for a lot of women is to like internalize that anxiety and like that insecurity in that moment and still kind of carry yourself like and be kind of friendly and kind of try and um yeah try and initiate some sort of you know try and get into the try and initiate some sort of you know try and

get into the group and feel some sort of safety find some sort of connection hold out like kind of get a lifeline from somebody and cling to that but i think to express it in like actual hostility towards me shows how deep it is like how almost like life or death it's like that survival instinct for this person that she will proudly throw someone under the bus it felt um yeah like to keep tabs on a darwinistic thing it felt survival of the fittest it was like i'm actually going to crush you it was like oh god i'm just out paying pool i don't know not very festive and there were points where she was like saying to the to our friend she was like to him which one of these three is your favorite then

like trying to like thinking that you couldn't hear like almost trying to make us compare ourselves to each other and we were sort of cutting in being like please don't do that like we're just trying to have a nice time please please don't do this place in pool badly it was really horrid actually and i it really makes me quite determined to like even when i do feel and i'm actually not saying that i don't i think she was jealous of me i don't think that was it but the environments where i would feel a hostility towards someone is often if i felt like oh they're a threat to me in some way and i know that she felt threatened in some way i actually don't know how because i couldn't have looked more weird that night and less threatening i couldn't have been weirder to be honest i was literally i don't i don't know

how she possibly thought i was a threat but she didn't like me um but often when i feel like that it's because i'm jealous of the person or i want to like oh i can't look at them they're fucking i feel triggered by them in some way and it really makes me feel quite determined to be like, I'm just going to extend niceness to them. Not that it would ever be my instinct to be horrible, but I'm just want to talk to the person because it's like, actually you, when you actually speak to someone, you realize it's like,

actually we are kind of all on the same team here. We're just human beings feeling the same thing. We all are. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. No one's on a pedestal guys. You can easily tip it. Everyone's on your level. Tip them all off. Tip, tip, tip. Everyone's on a pedestal guys you can easily tip it

everyone's on your level tip them all off tip tip tip everyone's off the pedestals we're all on the same level it's all on the ground yeah down here in the pits

come on off your pedestal come and join us come and join us in the pits stunning yeah well podmas episode 2

ho ho ho happy podmas ho ho ho merry cruxmas merry cruxmas that feels like a long time ago that we said that yeah all right what a role tomorrow bye you