Goes Without Saying - forced friendships & feeling self-critical: off the record

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on the natural ebb and flow of friendships, being 'unlikeable' and finding confidence, feminism and 'holding women accountable', and validating your own feelings. ✷see more ✷ www.youtube.com/@sephyandwing ✷ www.instagram.com/sephyandwing ✷ www.tiktok.com/@sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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And I'm Wing. We talk about patriarchal critique of women, which turns into quite an interesting conversation. We're talking about difficult friendships and we get quite personal on that. I feel like this is a really nice episode, like we sort of reflect on it at the end and we say that we think this is... Smash it!...hits some political points and also some personal points and hope you enjoy it. God, okay. Hey!

Hi! How are you? Yeah, I'm good, how are you? My God! You were about to say... We just recorded a weird little thing and now we're recording an episode so it feels really like, oh okay. It's like, oh hi! Hi!

Yeah, literally. Hello again. Yeah hi yeah well how are you yeah how's it going good I mean it's pitch black I'm sort of lit by candlelight in the dark with you here I know actually though it feels like when so basically it was literally like so dark in Sefi's room she's like I have to turn the light on for you lit a candle like an old Victorian Victorian lit a candle stick as well not just like a scented candle like an old Victorian, Victorian haunted child. Literally a candlestick as well, not just like a scented candle, like a candlestick. No, a long candle and it's really lit you up so beautifully. It has, I feel like it's quite relevant to candle lit FaceTime we're having right now. Honestly, it is a candle lit recording, which I'm never opposed to.

No, me neither. How are you? Very nice. Yeah, good. I'm excited for this. It feels nice to chat. I feel like our episodes have been really good recently. Me too. I don't want to be the one to say it but. I feel like our episodes have been really good recently. Me

too I don't want to be the one to say it but since no one else is making it clear yeah we've been on a roll recently I think. I think people have been saying it though people have been DMing being like love your episodes recently yeah and I do feel like they have been really good and not for no reason no I think they are really good I think it's good to do the longer episodes as well. I think it's because also we've been really enjoying them. We've been having really good. For no reason. I think they are really good. I think it's good to do the longer episodes as well. Me too. I think it's because we've been really enjoying them. We've been having really good conversations. Yeah. And why do you think that is? I don't know. I think we both feel like we're in a very good spot with the podcast right now. Like it feels like really exciting and also we're coming into our tabula rassa new year feeling. Yeah. We're heading into Podmas as well. Like yes we are.

It just feels very you know it's fun isn't it? Feeling good in it yeah. This is my favourite thing at the moment I've been using the language show your workings. You have actually. Because I keep asking selfie questions and then I keep being like give me more give me more like almost like break it down for me like take me down every route as we love to do. Yeah. And just then I thought when you were saying we've had such good apps I was like yeah and like now we move on and then I thought wait why do you think we're having good apps? Do you know what I mean? Like yeah we are and why do you think that is? Let's keep doing more of it. Okay yeah good I'm glad to hear that. So I think we're gonna we're gonna sort of ruin the streak with an off the record yeah famously but i think people are liking the people keep saying like they want bits

where we talk about ourselves which is very nice and also very um appealing like that's very nice and easy for us to do so oh do you think i feel like it's obviously difficult in loads of different ways but like i'm happy to not have to formulate a thought. Oh well never ever formulate a thought ever again please. Oh darn. So we want to be raw, unformulated, just free as a bird. Um okay so off the record I always like an off the record personally. Me too. Because it's just like don't hold me to this.

Yeah exactly and also I love not knowing what the shape of an episode is going to be. We never really do but I really like it when it's like I truly don't know what this is gonna be. I feel like I always know. I always, we never really do. No not not with and off the record because I don't know what questions we'll pick. Yeah exactly. But I always come to a FaceTime being like this topic? Thoughts on that? And even earlier I was like sorry I don't have a topic in my head like I don't have a steer. Do you know what I mean? I come in completely, completely neutral. Otherwise I'll have things I wanna say and stuff and it'll just be a load of shit.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, I think that's also like, recently, God, we've been having a lot of, it's a bit meta, but we've been having a lot of conversations with other people who have podcasts or people who make podcasts or whatever. And an interesting, not that interesting, but something vaguely interesting, was an interesting little thing, was about like people, the difference between like a guest-based

podcast, like an interviewee structured podcast, or just like a solo hosted podcast, or a co-host podcast. And the good thing about us having this co-hosted podcast and naturally with co-hosted podcasts is you'll get to lean more into the conversation. So we don't ever have to come with a pre-prepared thing about what to say. Like we're never hitting marks of like, oh, okay, the topic is about trees.

Well, make sure you mention that they're green, make sure you mention soil, there's none of that. It can just be back and forth thoughts on trees today. And I love that that is the essence of Goes Without Saying. That said, I do always, typically, more often than not, I'm coming in thinking today is about trees. Because it's like, well, yeah. But I think we do a very loose topic, it's like, yeah, it can be about trees, but it's like well you know but I think it's like we do a very loose topic it's like yeah it can be about trees but it's kind

of a conversation is like reactionary so I'm reacting to what you say which I don't know what you're gonna say and you're reacting to what I say which you don't know what I'm gonna say so it makes it fresh I think like I don't want to have a list of bullet points that we're working through never being that we've got to hit this mark of soil in three, No. In half an hour's time, so how are we gonna get there? Absolutely not, no. But knowing that it's like, okay, today we talk about trees and then, oh god, what a surprise, we spent 45 minutes talking about leaves.

Talking about our childhoods. Yeah, exactly, surprise, surprise. Yeah. Okay, well, is there any direction you would like to go? I literally don't have my phone right, my phone's over there, I but like go and get it in terms You don't need to get it. But in terms of vibes anything any area that you're leaning into and no I'm completely She's free as a bird. Is there anything that you want to do? I can also grab my phone. Well, there are great questions

So we could kind of go anywhere. What do you guys want? God? Okay Okay. I wish you could answer. Okay. Alright, look, it's a big... Oh, go on. I picked the wrong one. It's a great question and it's about to get a terrible answer. How do you criticise slash hold accountable women in a way that is still feminist? Oh, that's a good one. Great question. Thanks for asking it. Yeah, I know.

That's an amazing question. Yeah it is isn't it? I feel like one of the main critiques there would be for women is that it is not what they're doing is not feminist. So it's almost like the things that I would be critiquing are the things that I don't when I feel like it's going against the thing that I'm asking them to be but then I want my critique of that to also fit within that thing so it is quite difficult.

It's totally difficult because as well I feel like there is the narrative, I don't necessarily think the narrative of feminism but I think the narrative on social media about feminism is a lot about, it's kind of surface level like top line holding women up. And that doesn't allow space to be honest, first of all, for real feminist work to be happening. And two, it doesn't hold space for like critiquing or discussing women as human beings and people who can be in positions of power and all of this stuff.

We recently had a conversation about, I'm going to say some unnamed, about an unnamed woman. It was the other day. Oh God. Right, let me try and get there. You'll get there immediately because we were at balcony where we always are, eating big old breakfast. Why can't I still get that?

Yeah, no we were eating big old breakfast. It was the other day. We had big old breakfast. Yeah, I know where we were. I remember the breakfast. I just can't remember what we were talking about. I remember that bit. It was two breakfast. I just can't remember what we were talking about. I remember that bit. It was two women talking.

Still can't get there. Which, you know, everybody knows it, two women talking. I know it, I know it, I know it. Yeah, I know. I know the women in question. Okay, it's not really about them. Had just to get past the hash browns, past the beans. Yeah, past the beans, got it sound so good,

past the sausage, past that. I remember what the conversation was. Yeah, past all the good stuff and then into the shit. We were having a conversation about a piece of content that we had both seen at previous times and not discussed and I had like a very strong reaction to it. I had almost an aversion. I had a very strong, it evoked a sadness in me, it evoked a sickness in me that I have not been able to cure. And I don't think it's important to name them, but the thing that upset me was watching women

kind of reflect on not feeling that what I think is quite an innate behaviour in women, but reflecting on not having a desire or care to protect other women or to put value on their relationships that they have with other women. And kind of in turn, they were basically saying like that they were putting value on things that I would see as a lot more like fickle or meaningless. They are. No, they are. Like money or like a party for example. Fame. Do you know what I mean?

Just like seeing, yeah fame, like being around people who you think are like important socially apart from, apart of like an important social group or like a group that you want approval from, you're so desperate to like be valued by them. They literally don't even know who the fuck you are and you're willing to throw your own group of people, your friends, whatever, under the bus just so you can get closer, inch closer, to these people who have loads of money and don't give a fuck about

you. I found it deeply, deeply upsetting and disturbing and I brought it to breakfast because I couldn't help but like, I wanted to know your thoughts, I wanted to know if you'd seen it I wanted to know if you had a reaction to it and also just to discuss that it's really I think the thing that I find hardest and like what you were just saying is the critique around a woman would often be that it feels like her actions are disturbing feminism in some way like they are disrupting a movement, they are like, they're holding us back or you know, it's, she's acting out of line with like trying to protect other women and that was the, I hope you guys, I hope that's making sense that you can follow

what I'm saying is basically I watched this thing where these girls were talking about throwing other women under the bus just to like get a bit more famous or get a bit more money and it really made me lose a lot of respect for them and it made me very sad. And I did the critiquing in the comfort of my own home kind of in Balcony. In Balcafé in Brighton in the lanes. That's the critiquing that I'm going to do and I'm not going to comment on the video and I'm not going to comment and I'm not gonna comment on the video and I'm not gonna comment and I'm not gonna send a letter to these people. I'm just going to, the way that I'm going to critique those women or the way that I think I can hold those women accountable, whatever quote unquote like what

the question was, is to just keep talking in my own space about how important it is to give a shit about women. I find it really like almost quite impressive that I guess just certain people don't have that gene where you want to make sure your friend got home okay. Things like that. Like you just actually don't give a fuck. It's very very concerning. Or just like the priorities are out of order because I think they do give a fuck but it is beneath the importance of getting a photo with that person which is actually very very sad. It's so grim but I was looking through the comments and everyone was like love this so funny.

Oh yeah, yeah, no, no that's not the general conversation. I was just like I can't really believe and I said to Cecily and this is really horrible but I was like if that was my daughter I would be devastated. It's the kind of thing where this is really horrible but it's like you have been raised all wrong. Wrong. Yeah, you have. If you can like turn your back on your friends. That is that culture I do think like these people are both very like London upper class like kind of they're socialised essentially like I do think there is a work, they're like

Maiden Chelsea kind of types. Learn, we know I've been watching that long enough. Did you see someone sent a message being like, I thought it was Maiden Chelsea, as in Chelsea the Maiden. Maiden on Chelsea. And that Chelsea was the main character. I thought that was so funny. No sorry, Maiden Chelsea. Maiden Chelsea.

What am I talking about? Maiden in Chelsea. Chelsea was the place they were made. They were made there. They were made in Chelsea. Terrible, terrible name. But it worked in like 2010 or whenever. It works, yeah. Or just Mick is what the people that really watch

it call it. Made in Chelsea. I don't know. But yeah, they're those types. I do think they function slightly differently but it makes perfect sense. They were talking about things that are completely inaccessible to people and they were talking about it in a way that was really like almost assuming that these are like the normal experiences like this is just what happens and it's like actually this isn't like I just think they of course they think like that. Yeah and I want to critique it. 100%

Also I think one of the problems with the difficulty in critiquing women is that women get unjustly critiqued compared to men. All the time. It feels like oh shit I don't want to critique the woman who's done like 50% wrong when the man has obviously done 80% wrong or whatever. 100% yeah. But he will receive 20% of the critique. He'll receive absolutely nothing. No, he'll receive loads of praise. For example, another conversation we were having at the balcony breakfast. God, a lot of things went down here. Is we were talking about the Tommy Fury girlfriend,

whatever the girl he cheats on Molly May with allegedly. Apparently, yeah. And how obviously, there weren't great videos from what I saw of her bragging whatever, but she's obviously receiving the main bulk of that critique like her life will be well she's a joke and he will be absolutely fine and has been completely fine even though he is the one that cheated on somebody and he and she from what I know didn't but it's completely

out of whack so I feel like people even though there's obviously loads of room to critique that woman, I'm hesitant to critique her because the person that really should be receiving the critique is Tommy Fury, yet it's not almost as satisfying to critique him because we're socialised to want to see women fall down basically. And I think that's why someone like her receives a fuckton of criticism because it's easy, it's more satisfying, it's funnier, blah blah blah blah. Like there's just something in, we know, in the culture that makes that desirable. No, we're actually biologically addicted to critiquing, to hating women. Like it's actually, it's existed in our bodies for hundreds of years.

That's just the way it goes. But I also think so much of criticism is not really, like I think sometimes people think they're critiquing or holding accountable, quote unquote, and they're not. They're just like being ourselves on the internet. Do you know what I mean? And I think a lot of feminist critique happens in the real world and not like on a TikTok mean? And I think a lot of feminist critique happens

in the real world and not like on a TikTok video. And I think the majority of what's happening on the internet isn't really about feminism or holding accountable or critique or any of this like important, interesting, nuanced stuff. It's just like, hate this person today, same. How do we feel about blah, blah, blah, blah? Hate, yeah, same.

You know, like we can't formulate our own thoughts anymore We can't have interesting conversations anymore. Yeah, just like bring me the next woman to hate on a platter, please. Perfect Yum, yum, yum. Amazing onto the next Genuinely. Yeah, that is exactly the overall thoughts. I think yeah. All right, that was fine We had some thoughts turns out we are formulating turns out can't have ourselves. All right, perfect Also, they're gonna have been off the it. Turns out. Can't help ourselves. All right, perfect. Also, these questions. You never know what's gonna happen off the record. You never know what's gonna happen here.

These questions are from a while ago, and every time I close my phone, it's taking it, it's leaving the screen to have to scroll back up, so if you wouldn't mind just keeping yourselves amused while I, while I dig back in. Thoughts on that, that was quite good, wasn't it? Yeah, I like that. Is that all we do? We reflect on the question. Yeah I think so. Bit by bit. A star for us though. Yeah. Okay. Oh this is nice one. really spoken about that specifically in that way. And we have been talking to a lot of people recently, as you said, about having a podcast

and stuff recently. We also want to go on a panel soon. I don't know, we haven't, you know, it's just a thing with this out in the ether. There's like this thing in the podcast world, whatever, where they have these panels on this day. I don't think you guys would be at the event unfortunately. No you wouldn't care about it either. I wouldn't recommend you guys. No not at all. It's not our scene really. It's quite industry vibes. I mean it'll be fun but it's not gonna be laugh out loud sort of content. I don't know what it's

gonna be. But I think we want to do one about like starting from scratch. Maybe. Like how to be nobody's basically. Yeah. So I feel like that connects to the biggest fear, like be it starting from nothing, failing, embarrassing yourself. It's something that you're trying very publicly. I think that would be all within the fears. Yeah, I think it kind of links to the last question as well about misogyny and misogyny on the internet. Oh yeah, 100%. Do you know what I mean?

Getting hate from, I was going to say men, but kind of just people I think. People online you mean? Yeah, like horrible comments. Well I also think, yeah that's horrible, like, in a tangible sense, like being, like saying as a young woman, oh, I think I would like a little bit on the internet with some people following me and talking to me and like having a little convoy. It's definitely not an encourage,

it's not a very admirable thing to say. No. It's like a lot of people, there's like a huge stigma attached to like a woman speaking on the internet. Oh my god, I never thought of that before we started. But don't you think? It's a huge, it's like, I don't want to be called an influencer, I don't want to be called

a this or like why do you want to speak on the internet? But that came so much later I think, when people started attaching that to it. Oh really? Yeah, I never really thought of it in those terms until that's what then people were like said the term influencer and I felt a bit uncomfortable with it for sure. But that's definitely been a thing that was, I don't think I went in with that as a concept even. I definitely went in with the concept of like I know exactly what people are gonna think

about this that it's like shut the fuck up who the fuck do you think you are? Like talking on the internet, get a grip, like she's up her own ass, she's arrogant, whatever, da, da, da, da, da. And I don't- Never crossed my mind, genuinely. Have a problem. Well, I'm always thinking of every worst case,

obviously, I'm always thinking of, what if a fucking elephant ran in the room and stomped all over me- Oh God, it'd be horrible. And my teeth got knocked out, and they couldn't replace them and all of this stuff. Do you know what I mean? I'm always going, I'm taking it to the nth degree for literally no good reason. But yeah, I definitely thought it's not the most likeable thing to be like, oh, gonna start a podcast.

I mean, thank God there were two of us, Jesus. Could you imagine some girl on her own being like, oh yeah, I'm just yapping on the internet. You've not got hope in hell, it's so embarrassing. Everybody hates you immediately. I also think of the term influencer. I think, for example, as we were saying, people love to hate women and a woman wanting to have fun or thinking that her voice is worth listening to, any of these kind of abstract concepts, it's not likeable as a woman. It's not encouraged and it's not like... people don't like to see it. People want you to shut the fuck up and just go to work. Just shut up. Stop making your scenes. Stop thinking you're bigger than everyone. Stop thinking you're more important. Shut up and go to work. That's all people want from you, generally.

And I get it. But I also think, and I think even with the term influencer, it's so... there's so much misogyny loaded into that. I have never and would never have a problem with somebody calling me an influencer. It's a generic term that is thrown at people who make content on the internet. It's what we've done for years. If anything, I'm so honored that you would put us

into a category of warranting any sort of influence and like, oh, you think we're doing all right. You think brands wanna pay us. Okay, fine. Think what you want. Great, okay, that, you think we're doing all right, you think brands wanna pay us. Okay, fine. Think what you want. Great, okay, that's the energy we're giving off. Great, works for me. Like I always, since before it happened,

have always thought it's just not a likeable thing for a woman to say that she wants to do and then trying to do it. And at the beginning, you're trying to do it and nobody's allowing you to do it, nobody gives a shit, all of this stuff. It's not likeable and it's worth it I think to not be likeable. I think I found that out kind of the hard way because I, that never crossed my mind.

Definitely the term influencer I have had like a bit of a, definitely doesn't feel like a natural. Yeah, it's not how I would describe myself personally. No, but then it got, I definitely felt the weight of people's assumptions about that, but from being something you've done, I've never... Or what? You want to be an influencer? Yeah, and it's like, wait, no, I don't actually.

You want to be an influencer? I've never said that word for myself ever, but it was like a bit of a shock almost, like to face that, like almost like the demeaning, yeah, people looking down on that word that you don't even necessarily like, I'd never even thought of those terms for us. So I think I felt the shock of that, definitely, which has made me, had to, made me reevaluate my relationship with that title, which I don't think I ever went into thinking of it. Is that at all? But yeah, no, I'd be completely flattered if people think we're earning a penny from this. Like that's very flattering. We really are, we really are.

Also, I really want to make it very clear that it's like to earn a penny from this. Like that's very flattering. We really are. Also I really want to make it very clear that it's like to earn a penny from talking to your friend is a luxury. I know you guys know that we know that but it really is like to get paid anything for this is like obviously what we always wanted and that fell with our reach like completely so I just think I've never I just feel nothing about the term influencer I don't think many people call us influencers really but I do think generally people are like you want to be an influencer you think you're really pretty you think you think you're really interesting do you you think you're better than us is that what you think you want to be an influencer and it immediately brings out this like it I

mean the bulk of it I think it's all of these sorts of things It's like a cultural issue. It's like a you know, it's it's so many things It's it's so deep but also I do think the bulk of that conversation is misogyny 100% Which I'm obviously not the biggest fan No I'm not the biggest fan of misogyny But I think the yeah, I think my biggest fear

with starting the podcast was like, yeah, people are gonna really hate that. Yeah, people are really not gonna like that. You have to really stand for something. You can't do it in private. And I did for a while. I remember, so funny now thinking about it, but I didn't have it linked on my Instagram or anything.

That was very much like a private thing. Like, so funny to then, I don't know what then, I don't know what was the final straw for me to be like, oh yeah, I'm happy enough in this now that I can put it on my own personal. Well, then it's like. Yeah, but at what point did we think, oh yeah, that's doing well.

I don't know. I think we had some kind of early days, like validation like pre-COVID, we spoke at the Womacool High pre-Celestial, we spoke at Raffles Nightclub, which is, I always talk about Made in Chelsea. They always say like, two in Raffles, it's like a joke, they always cheat on each other in Raffles. And I'm like, God, we spoke there. And we did speak there. That's just funny that I've spoken at the scene of all these hideous crimes

that I've seen on this show. At the scenes of the crimes, yeah. But I think that was something that was like, okay, we've done a speaking gig. I felt like very, like we have spoken at a women's, what's it called? International Women's Day. It was at International Women's Day. We've spoken at that, a thing for that, and that made me feel like, okay, I wore a dress in a thing and I held a microphone publicly. That, I think, was something that made me feel established. We agreed at the beginning, you were like, you go first, you take the first thing or say your name first.

We had one microphone between two. One microphone between two, which now as a learning experience we knew from that moment, we learnt very early on. If we're doing any sort of event, give us both a microphone each. You want to bring Zoom into the real world, is that what you're saying? You want this to be the clunkiest conversation ever where we all wait around for each other to speak. No, it doesn't work. We need a microphone each.

Because sat down, ready to go, and I tried to speak into the microphone as previously agreed, because Teffy had been like, make sure you go first. You go first, yeah. You do your bit first. I was nervous. Teffy was nervous, take it, I was like, yeah, of course, no worries, blah, blah, blah.

I went to take the microphone, she was like yanking it. Oh, no worries, blah, blah, blah. I went to take the microphone. She was like yanking it. Oh, oh, yanking it back at me. Honestly, I don't remember this. I was like, oh my god, she won't give me my provide. And I was like, oh my god, what the hell? Is she gonna run riot? Almost like what's she gonna do stand up and do it?

I don't remember this, but when I saw the video, do you know what I think happened? Yeah. So I. It was when we watched it back. I was like, oh my god, I'm kind of holding it. But I didn't see you trying to take it i think i just had basically they'd handed me the microphone and then i we just sat down on this she blacked out yeah and i was just sort of like

about the previous arrangements it was like the girl the woman that was speaking so she did a bit of a preamble before we were speaking and it was very emotional like she cried in it and it was like a whole thing so by the time it came to the point for us to speak, I was just holding the microphone, sort of in my lap, and when I see the video back, Wing is like trying to take it. I haven't seen that, have you still got it? I know, I think you have it.

Oh, you must not have it anymore. Oh, I don't know if I, maybe my sister has it. I'm not on this bloody phone, but it'll be somewhere. So many people came, it was really nice, like loads of my old housemates and our friends came, it was really nice. But like, so one of them will have it but like when I saw the video it's like Wing's trying to take it and it's just like in my lap I almost forgot

I was on stage or something. But you're pulling it back you're like kind of shaking me off and it's like I'm so sorry what's happening! I was just zoned out. I don't even... It's not like I was trying to speak. I was just like... No not at all! I was just watching the show almost. She was just kind of holding it back and I was like wait Wait what? By the way, you're But thankfully at home, we've got one between two. We've got one each here. Yeah, so we're fine, but that was a funny Almost like I remember you being like, oh my god. I'm really sorry. I don't know why I did that. I was like, no no I didn't remember. It was like oh my god. I'm not sorry. I don't know why I did that. I was like, no, no, it's completely fine. It was like, oh my god, I'm not letting you

have the microphone. I'm just holding it still. Yeah, I remember you being like, shit, watching it back. Very weird behavior. It's a bit for red flags from the beginning. Poached have been like, shit, I need to get out of this. Yeah, I think that was a confidence booster, sorry, going back.

Yeah, I think it was. That made us think we can stick around doing this. I think that just then we went into Covid and it was like we'd already done something like that. I think that gave me the confidence of like so I know that even though it was like a tiny thing we didn't get paid for it and it was like a small thing. It was just like we better get paid for it now. So there isn't that much confidence in that. It's just like you spoke of the thing but it meant so much. I mean you'll find the little signposts anywhere. so much. I mean you'll find the little signposts anywhere. You'll literally, I mean when you're looking for reasons to keep going,

anything. Literally just one message, one comment. I remember we, this was probably before we'd recorded any episodes and it was just like an Instagram page sharing astrology stuff. Someone commented and it was a bit of shitty comment really. There was a bit of a snarky comment. They were like what do you mean the moon is in Pisces and that's why you blah, blah, blah, blah. Truly what do you mean? What do we mean by that? And I remember we were jumping up and down,

screaming the house down. Were we? We've got a comment, we've got a comment. We're like, oh my God, somebody is here. Somebody is responding to our thing. Like we were going mental. Oh my God, I just sort of got the feeling of those days. Yeah, like almost like calling you down the stairs

and be like, have you seen this comment? Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. got the feeling of those days. Yeah, like almost like calling you down the stairs and be like Have you seen this comment? Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness like telling everyone. It was insane. Oh my god What was the one that everything was so heightened? It was Bobo. But what was it? I think it might have been Bobo like replying if you know, you guys know we love Bobo and Flex That the whole reason this exists what literally 100% and Bobo maybe like replied to a comment Tagged her in something or what? what yeah maybe we were like obsessed with them so we were tagging them in everything every post we did was for them to see. She probably literally just said thank you and we were like oh my god but are we I just going to bed. Bobo said thank you. Like I was like right I'm just going to bed and I just hear Wig running up the stairs and like open my door like Bobo's replied. God's mental. It's so funny.

Great times. Great times. Great times. It's just like, yeah, I'm scared, so what? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, there's a fear in starting, so what? This is kind of hilarious and insane. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was.

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Like, well no I am, I'm terrified, but like, as in, now like we're talking, look at us, we're talking on this, I've not got, I'm not like shaking my boots right now. I'm not, no, my innards are. Yeah they always are. They always are. Okay, right, thoughts on that? That was nice. Is that what we're actually doing now? We do it and then we say on the podcast how that was. That was good. I think so. Yeah that was a good one. I'm not attached to this format though. Don't forget to rate it five stars please, tell a friend.

Okay thoughts on these questions? I feel like I'm picking quite good ones. You are they're really good. And they're great questions so thanks everybody. There was one that I wanted I just need to track it down. Thank you for doing it sorry I'm not getting my phone. No no. I've been very unhelpful. Not at all. I just always want to give you the ones that you want do you know what I mean. Well don't because you don't want to. Always. And just give whatever you want. I do I do know no Okay, okay, mm-hmm ready this is kind of advice II but also I think it's just thoughts Yeah, I always feel like as well like yeah, and all right fuck it well

No, go on and go on all right So just the idea of advice. And I was thinking this actually when you were, I was reflecting on you saying that you think I'm opinionated. I feel like I just have a lot of thoughts and I don't necessarily think of them as my opinions. I'm just like, I'm saying all these different things.

But then if someone actually asked me my opinion, I'd be like, well, it's this and this and this and this and this, do you know what I mean? No, I completely get that. I think that is still an opinion. Yeah, like well it's this and this and this and this and this do you know I mean no I completely get that I think that is still an opinion like yeah those mini thoughts are like still because I agree I'm not not everything I say is truly what I believe. I think you've got a good relationship with something as your opinion I feel like if someone says oh that's your opinion and blah blah I'll deflect it and be like that's not necessarily my opinion but I

think but it's kind of it can be both it's like well I think it's not my only opinion and also like the idea that opinions are not fixed like because I think if I said to you what's your opinion you would almost they'll feel like you have to come up with some like definitive statement of your opinion on this. I have to give a conclusion. Yeah. Whereas like yeah it's like I have a million opinions on that thing. I can't even begin like on one hand I think this and on one hand I think that but I'm quite willing just to be like, yeah I think that it's really interesting because I feel like it's just more semantics thing of like I don't totally never thought of opinion opinion

Between sephi there was an app when we first started the podcast There was an app called opinion that I would use to record on and it was 100% the best sound quality we ever had and we don't have access to it anymore they've taken the app down so fuck that but it's just when I say opinion I'm like I just know yeah we're both thinking oh god god bless and sort of rest of the time but yeah I think it's an issue with the word opinion that I feel like if something is my opinion I want to feel like I feel formulated and like almost a bit concluded on it. I know I think you should. But I do feel like I am someone who I can see why you would say opinionated because I'm always I mean thoughts on this thoughts on this thoughts on this thoughts on this take it every which way and blah blah blah but I just never allow myself to like

qualify that as my opinions because I don't necessarily believe them. I think that's good, that's normal. I'm just saying them. That's the whole point of the conversation. This whole thing that you have just heard has been filled with thoughts, filled with, I think this, I think this, but yeah, suddenly saying these were our opinions

makes it feel really scary, because there's an idea that opinions are sad. Yeah, because I kind of feel like they're not my opinions. And for some reason, I do think society, we hate the idea of someone changing their mind. I think we really, we like to fix people, we like to fix them into a category and brand them as this thing forever.

Yeah. I have no problem with someone saying, yeah, I changed my mind, I learned. This whole podcast has been filled with opinions that I disagree with. But I haven't changed my mind because I never set my mind if that makes sense. Like I feel like my mind is never really settled. Yeah but that is the nature of it I think.

I would like it to be like one degree more settled before I qualified it as an opinion do you know what I mean? Yeah well I don't think I think that we're going around saying opinions ever. Yeah, we kind of are though. That's kind of entirely what we're doing. Anyway, right, this question. I know, yeah, well I'm glad you think I'm opinionated then. I just think, look, points of view is important, right? Oh my god, it's the most important thing. I think I have so many points of view. I think I have so many insights. I think I have so many insights. I think I have so many questions

It's the same thing. Is it though? Yeah, because I don't think an opinion needs to be Solid and like it's not an essay. It can still be an opinion if it's not The one best opinion because realistically my opinion on things is gonna be so But if it's not even I think be so fucking boring to hear. But what if it's not even I think, blah blah blah. Cause my opinion often, my bottom line, my crux is always, I think it's this, this, this, this and this. So my opinion normally holds like multiple opinions in one.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, okay, right. And also like it's gonna have the counter view in because nothing is 100%. Never, not for me. Like that's why an essay is obviously is obviously more thorough than a tweet. Or a podcast. Because you can really say, some people believe this and some people believe this and kind

of the reality is they're all true. Like there's a kind of grain of sand that you can get to which might be your opinion once you've boiled all of those things down. But realistically that is quite boring. Sometimes I do have a clear opinion that's like, literally can't think of a single one. For example. God, my head. No, no, no, I can think of your opinion. For example, what we just discussed about those two girls talking, that was an opinion that I feel like you had a reaction to it. That's a strong opinion. I would call that an opinion. That's definitely an opinion. But I think that's not the majority of my discussions on like thoughts. I think that it's not the reality

of most people's like who's doing that. Agreed. Okay that's that was an interesting little bit on opinions. Yeah let's bring that. Okay. Can we stop doing that? No I like it because I like to check that everyone well I personally I think so far so good. This is a strong one I think. It is good yeah. Okay what to do when your friend constantly gets upset with you, brackets especially in groups. So like you've got one friend that seems like they don't like you.

I feel like I've had this recently. Go on. Well, you know where I'm going with this. Yeah, I know it well. Just almost like what you want me to beg to be your friend. You don't like me and I'm done groveling so let's just nip that in the bud now. I'm assuming that this person who's asked this question is a little bit young maybe or younger and I think that yeah I don't know these things come and go, relationships ebb and flow over time, but I do think sometimes we can get into a habit

of seeing ourselves as the villain or the one who has to apologise or the one who's being annoying. Before we started recording we were talking about, oh can I say, Sefi said somebody had been annoying and I was like, oh you always remind me that I can use that word because even if someone has annoyed me I'm annoyed with somebody I take that as like I'm annoyed with them because they've done this this and this whatever. We were saying for example like you would be like they've been rude. You would never say like they're annoying me you'd be like I'm annoyed because they're being patronising. Oh they've been patronising. They've been rude. I would never I forget that other people apart from me can be annoying I forget that people can be annoying I kind of think I forget that other people apart from me can be annoying. I forget that people can be annoying. I kind of think I'm...

Just have an annoying personality. I know firsthand. I kind of have one sometimes. Like everyone feels like, I don't know. Also, we were all saying that I think it's like a bit of the kid in me that would be like, oh, they're just annoying. It's a kid language. It's a good thing as well with siblings to be like, you're annoying me. You're annoying me. Yeah. And I would say to my sisters, well, like I would especially say it to my youngest sister, be like, she'd be like, you're being annoying. Yeah and I would say to my sisters, well like I would especially say to my younger sister,

she'd be like, you're being annoying. Yeah. You're being annoying. And it's like, I feel like I've got, that is a very, people are annoying very often. Yeah but I think I- Not for even a wider reason, just like, you're so annoying. No they're just annoying, yeah but I think it's, I forget that other people can just be annoying.

I think I'm the only one who can be annoying. I've for some reason got the monopoly on being annoying. But you don't, I don't now. There are some really fucking annoying people out there. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But I think some people can be like that where they think they're the one in the wrong, they're the one being annoying,

they're the one who's done something, they're the one who needs to like grovel and do all of this stuff. And sometimes I think it's important to be like, yes, there's nuance, things are complex, you could have done things differently. But also other people should be kind to you. Yeah, or there's a standard that I think should be upheld

when it comes between friends, for example. I think if someone gets to call themselves your friend, or they get to have you in their life, then they should be required to keep up a general level of etiquette of like, I think recently I've been thinking about the things I expect from people and the things I expect from friends. And I think I've realised that I am quite low expectation when it comes to friendship. It doesn't really take much. I can be extremely understanding like you can disappear more than, you can

really lash out on me and I will be like totally get it, you're going through something, like I get why that would happen, that sort of thing. I feel like we're both like that, like someone could do something, someone could be a right cunt. I think we're very good at thinking of why someone's going through, you know. Or putting ourselves in the other person's shoes and being like, I... I see why you're doing that. I almost feel like that's the bit that I really value in a friendship, I think. Being able to be like, you did that because you were having this hard time and I can empathise

with that thing. Yeah, totally. I think it's quite, you know, I think it's like, that, to me, that is the bit that comes naturally. I would find it harder to be really like brutal on someone. I would find it harder to like snap or like have a go at somebody or be like I expected more for any of these. I find it easier to be like oh I've probably been a bit annoying or they're going through something so it's all my fault. But also that's the thing we were talking about in the last episode was it where we were like

it's easier to admit something to sort of take the blame for something and be like oh it's me i'll take it because then you can fix it rather than being like it's the worst thing when you realize fuck it wasn't me so that means it was them and then i've been wronged by someone they're not going to admit it like that is way worse in a way. I recently had this conversation with somebody about parents and it's like thinking about like your own kind of mental issues and stuff and at what point is it just like kind of pointless to hold any blame towards them because it's like well you're not gonna do anything about it and at least if I just put all the blame on me then I can start fixing some of this stuff. Exactly. That sort of thing. It's like yeah if I'm trying to blame my

mum for X, Y and Z, nothing's ever gonna be resolved there. It's like I'll be waiting a long time. But if you could say oh it was all me. But that was all my fault. And it's like, oh we can have a relationship. Yeah, exactly. If I put it all on me, great, I'll start going to work to fix it. Which that's why it's tempting, because then it's all in your control and you can be like, okay, I'll accept the blame, but it also isn't always, like it's not always true and you always do sort of know it deep down, like oh I kind of have just sort of accepted a load

of blame that wasn't actually mine just to appease the situation. I remember I had a therapist once say to me, it's like the child version of you, eight year old wing, eight year old Erin is coming to you and being like, this has upset me and I'm being like, how you feel doesn't matter, shut up. Yeah.

And it's like, you would never speak to a child like that. No. You probably would never speak to anybody else like that. But the way that you disregard your own feelings, like the ways that other people have hurt you, it's just, oh yeah, I'll just forget about that. Because how I feel doesn't matter, I can get on with that. But that's not really fair or realistic because it's going somewhere and there are so many things that I think it's just-

Right into the soul. It goes right into the soul and then it lays at the pit of the friendship ready to blow up at a later date and I think for example in this there's a situation that's happened to me this year that I've been reflecting on that I've kind of touched on here and there in different episodes. Yeah. That I think there have been so there have been multiple times where I've just been like oh gobble gobble I'll just internalise all of that I've just been like, oh, gobble gobble, I'll just internalise all of that.

Yeah, you just lash out on me totally, completely get you, completely get you for years and years and years and then you do it one more time and it's like, oh, actually, how far can you push me away before I kind of think, oh, fuck it, I'll jump. I don't think it doesn't necessarily go away if you tell, the way that you feel doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's not going anywhere. It's going, you know, it's deep within you. Also, this was the conversation about the A star friend,

the C friend, like all of that sort of conversation that we had. I forgot about that. Yeah, this all relates to that. And I think so much of this is to do with like expectations and like a big conversation in that episode, wherever it was, it's probably spanned a few episodes, was what certain people can get away with,

which I think is one of the tricky things in a friendship when you realize that you're being held to a standard that they're not. They're treating you like shit. Oh wait, if I said that, that's what's horrible. If I said that to you, what would that do? It would have sparked this whole fucking thing but you get to say that to me fucking constantly. That is really shit.

It's so shit. Or just like, why have I let you treat me like shit for years? Or like, why do I let you really hurt me over and over? That's not good. Is that a friendship? I don't think so. Or like... I think it can be bits of a friendship. Of course. I think there's always little, you know, a little weird. I think there can be bits. Like we live in a, like we're not perfect, people are insecure, the insecurities bleed onto one another when you're in close dynamics. That is in a way a symptom of having close relationships. But when it becomes, or like part of the goodness, when you can go through these things,

like I don't want any, a sign of the depth in things is when there are issues that you work through and all of these things. I do think that's really important. But- Well that's because we're coming from the place of like wanting to understand. Totally, and there's also a fine line between like, I don't want anyone to hear that and be like,

oh yeah, my boyfriends are abusing me. It's deep now. No, you guys know that. That is not it. But so much of it can be great when it's like, oh my, or so much of it is it. That's the thing of having a deep friendship, having an argument or having a... That's the point. Someone's anxiety spill onto you or whatever and it's like, wait, no, now I feel more anxious about this. Like, you know, having those conversations is so important.

But when there's the pattern, for example, in this case where, and it's not ever moving through it, like it's stuck at this level where someone is unwilling to have the conversation and they're just keeping this behavior going and you're just internalizing the whole thing. It is not fair and it's not the mark of a deep friendship, it's the mark of somebody sort of yeah like oh it's it's not fair and it's not a deep amazing thing where you're moving through it, it's just a thing where someone's being f***ing rude constantly. I've also had multiple people be like, kind of the idea of like viewing people as their potential or like an idea of somebody or like who

they were before or like who that that time was great or whatever blah blah blah all of these ideas about people and about a relationship and stuff and like there can be so many times you can have a conversation and move through it but also fundamentally I think if people are being out of order to you, you really have a right to validate how you feel and stand up for yourself. Totally. You know? Do you remember my dad had that thing?

He has many a thing that he says. But there was one, I can't remember the quote, but he sent me this huge fucking, it was long, long, long. But the essence of it was like, treat people how they show you that they are not who they, who you want them to be. It was said in much more convoluted terms because that's the kind of person he is. But that was the essence, which is like, we were talking about it within. Yeah, what were you talking about that in relation to? We were talking about a friend that I had. Oh yes.

But like I just got a bit nervous. Was it me for a second but it wasn't. Friend that I had. No before that. I was like yeah no still have actually have a podcast with her. I just thought when your dad said that I thought have we ever checked that that wasn't about me but it's not. I forgot. Why would I tell you? Yeah go on. No I mean literally what the hell why would I be like so he gave me this advice. About you in fact. Completely about you. Yeah no that's mental. It was about a friend that kind of not a similar thing because I feel like it's different. It is different because your identity of them is already built around them. There's a level of like there's a there's a separation already yeah. Yeah and I don't want anything from this friend particularly like it's it's low stakes. It's really it's low stakes but it's also like would be so gutting to lose them and I don't want to and I don't think I will but I sort of had the thing where I was like I'm coming away from seeing this person every

single time being like they didn't ask me anything and like not just sort of like okay they didn't ask me questions fine I don't mind at all if a conversation doesn't follow this yeah you know I don't mind that and I'm'm not necessarily here to be asked questions. I don't, other than my wing on this podcast, I don't really need that. But it was the sort of thing where you would feel like you'd just been like monologued out for like three hours about all this stuff.

And it's like, oh God, I could tell you the bus they got to work and where they change and what they got get for lunch every day. All of these, I could tell you the tiny minutiae, whatever the word is of their life. I could tell you everything. And I don't think they know where I work. I don't think they could name one of my friends.

I don't think they could literally name a single thing about me. And it was quite jarring. Well at that point as well you had something big going on in your life. My grandma was dying. They knew that. They knew that was happening. Yeah my grandma was in hospital and she was dying. You shared that information. And they came over and they literally, yeah, not only did not know at the time I was working Community Cafe. You guys know that. You know the time, they didn't know I was working, they literally knew, they didn't ask a single thing.

And even bigger than that, this huge thing was happening in my life. They literally did not even ask how I am, how anything is going. Like it was- A very bare minimum stuff really. It was to the point of like, oh my goodness, I cannot believe how little I've crossed your mind.

And you're with me right now and you're not even thinking why her eye's puffy, why is she, is she okay? You haven't asked me, not even just surface level, but there's this huge thing going on that you haven't even acknowledged, not even just surface level, but there's this huge thing going on that you haven't even acknowledged, which I know you know. Yeah, not acknowledging it is so crazy. You completely know this is, yeah,

it was really, really insane and horrible actually. And I, yeah, I was speaking to my dad about it and I was like, what do you think I do? And he was just like, treat people how they show you that they are, not who you want them to be, but he said in really strange terms. But I liked the strange terms,

that's why I'm annoyed that I can't really think of it, because that just makes it sound generic quote, but it was quite good. It was what you needed at the time as well. Yeah, and it was just like, yeah, it doesn't mean that you have to, I'm cutting you off for anything crazy, it's just like, I will just adapt my behavior around you.

You are not somebody that needs to know, or you don't need to be let into my grief over my grandma. You don't need to know that you're not that person. And it's sort of, I guess, is the C friend, the A star friend sort of concept of being like, I'm just gonna adapt how I act around you. You're not someone now that I see this much. You're now someone that I will see only on a day when I have the energy to hear all of the

details of your life and be kind of rinsed by you, like kind of completely drained out by you. You're not, you know, but it doesn't, it didn't mean like, if I really think in those terms, it doesn't mean I cut you out and I never see you again because you've shown me who you are and you're not somebody that I have no dynamic with, no relationship with. You're someone who I don't see that often and I don't let in. That's fine though. I'm happy with it to be that. Yeah. I don't think many things are, unless it's kind of the abusive boyfriend you were talking about earlier. Exactly.

I don't think many things ever really are cutting out quote unquote and I think a lot of like I think that is just not very real for most like people or relationships that are like I think most people understand that relationships are like an ongoing thing They're always ebbing and flowing and sometimes they might completely eb out and then in like 20 years time you might be like Oh my god, we've both started this thing at the same time or oh my god we've both had a kid at the same time and all of a sudden we're sliding into life in a different way and yeah these things are constantly moving and changing and it doesn't have to be anything more than just yeah I'm not gonna let you take up three hours of my

life where you go on at me. I don't have anything to give as Like at my lowest, I just had to be rinsed out by you. Not the phrase, but wrung out, whatever. I think that was it. It was like, you're not someone I see when I need to see a friend. You're someone that's like a nice extra. You're not someone I see when I need to see a friend. I think that is the crux.

That's kind of genuinely how it is. It's like, you're not comforting to me, you're not helpful to me in those moments. There are loads of settings where you can be great and all of the stuff but in the moment where I am not, I'm not great, this is horrendous, like I'm sort of, I don't want to be seeing anyone and I'm making time to see you, you're not that person. I also think it's something to be said about like how much of the relationships are built on how much you are willing to look past

or how much you are willing to accept or like, yeah, it's like maybe right now I'm not in a position to like really let you kind of cane into me for three hours, fine. So, you know, these things are always moving, they're always changing, but my advice would be if you're made to feel like in a group, someone is always getting upset with you specifically, would be to just spend more time with people that you feel like safe with because I do also think kind of like-

I would also ask. Sorry, keep going. Yeah, totally. Yeah, be like, you know, have a conversation what's going on. Why am I upset? Because also, it could be something, you'll do it. Totally. Totally it could. But I also

think... I think it's like just actually try and figure out what that is and you know have that conversation. I'm kind of imagining that that's happened already because I said it keeps happening. Yeah. I mean I do kind of think especially in groups it's like you're not... you don't have to be super compatible or like up every single person in the group's ass. Like sometimes with a nice big group, there are always people circling the peripheries that you're not super close with and there's always like little specific dynamics happening in between with certain people

and I just think you shouldn't beat yourself up or like villainize yourself. Definitely don't villainize yourself. I think don't villainize anyone. Like don't evenize yourself. I think don't villainize anyone. Like don't even villainize this guy. I think it's just like having the first step, having the honest conversation about, I've noticed I keep upsetting you. Like, can we, what is it? Can you let me know what is going on here? 100%. See if you can work through it. See if you agree. All of the stuff. And then I think, yeah, all of the stuff that we've just

discussed. But I think it's be open to the fact that people are human Maybe they're being triggered in some way like, you know, people are human beings But if you don't find it fair and you yeah Then you're so within your right to not see this person like group dynamics. They move fast That's one of the things that I always struggle with in those settings Like they move very fast and before you know it, someone has said something rude or offensive, you've been upset by something that happened 10 minutes ago and it's just catching up with you.

I don't think they feel like a safe space to bring up the thing of I feel upset with you because of this thing or have I upset you, blah, blah, blah. I think it's genuinely talk to this person. I don't think this person, generally people, like even the people we've discussed, these aren't bad people. These are just people that are not, they are just people and people as we know

are severely fucked up and have issues, us included. I think it's just about genuinely. We're the biggest ones. Yeah. Like just have the conversation, see how that goes as a starting point and then go into all of the other stuff we said. 100%, yeah.

Also, did I say this about advice? Did I get lost on that? Did I just completely go into opinions? Oh yeah, you went onto opinions. Yeah, okay, so similar to what I just said about opinions, in terms of advice, I'll also do a similar thing. That I just can't give advice to like a seven word question box response so it will never be advice frankly it's just going to be an exploration of that topic rather

than like here's what you should do do you know I mean because I don't know anything about you they're only throughout this person also this a couple of months ago is probably over by now they probably don't listen anymore they hear this they're like fuck it, they're completely upset. Who? Seth Inwing what? Those are that what? Never heard of you guys. Just over it. So I always feel like the advice bit can be kind of clunky because it's like we're giving lots of different advice for like a situation that first of all doesn't necessarily exist in this way. Like we're giving all sorts of if it's this situation then do this or maybe it's this. And it's like, it's kind of like, there's a dragon,

give me advice, it's like, what's it wearing? Where are you? What country are you in? Is it Hagrid's little mini dragon? Exactly. Norbert. Are you in an animated movie of, are you in Trek? Like, are you, you know.

Oh, is it Toothless? Is it fine? I don't know. Exactly. So just to- Is it Drogon? We don't know. Right, just to give the overall crux of advice on this pod in that format, it's meaningless. So true. You know what I mean?

And take that for everything that we say. And just generally everything off the record. Yeah. Okay. So let's rate the whole episode now. What do we think of that? I really think it... I think it's great. A smash hit. I do think it's a smash hit. It could be. I think there's a lot of good little, you know, we delve in, we get deep enough, I think. We touch on some really nice, there's a good mix of topics, I think. I mean, it's quite a range. We get kind of personal and individual and relationship space. We get kind of wider political, like, you know, social media.

Doing what we do best. We really are. I think we do you know goes without saying does what it says on the tin. Yeah. I like it. Okay cool well shall we wrap it up there. Let us know what you think. Definitely only if it's nice. Leave a comment on Spotify. Don't let us know what let us know your opinion. Let us know your positive reflections on that. Yeah. Tell your friends. Genuinely do. I feel like we used to get a lot of people being like, my friends recommended you. It's like, have you guys stopped recommending us to your friends? Like people don't say that anymore. What do you think? Why do I know? People used to, we used to get a lot of people being like, my friends

recommended me to you guys and she's obsessed with you. Maybe just all the friends have now been recommended and they're all here. I think that's kind of the thing. I also think I know you lot and I know you like to keep secrets and it's like oh you think you're special because you're the only one listening to goes without saying I get it but you're actually ruining our lives I also love it when people post us on their stories obviously I love that because it's like nice but like that's definitely spread the aren't doing that as much anymore. Spread the good word of goes without saying.

Genuinely let the bells ring. Let the people know. All right, if you don't hear from us, assume the worst. As a FIZ member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca.

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