Goes Without Saying - Forgive Or Forget Confrontation Is A Love Language

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on redemption, arguments, relationships, and the problem with forgiveness. ✷see more ✷ youtube@sephyandwing ✷ instagram @sephyandwing ✷ tiktok @sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk

Goes Without Saying, you're listening to Goes Out Saying, with Seffi and Wing, I'm Wing. And I'm Seffi. This feels like a very, like, packed full episode. I feel like we've hit buzzword after buzzword, after buzzword, after buzz about. I feel like we've gone in on a lot of kind of deep concepts. We've been talking about letting go, moving on, finding peace, finding forgiveness, what that looks like and the reality of that versus, like, knowing when to be able to move on and separate yourself from something and if something is like beyond forgiveness,

finding self-respect and knowing when to stand up for yourself and being able to validate your emotions and also having empathy and being able to see where other people are coming from and like remembering that nothing is probably as deep as you think it is. It's definitely an intriguing episode. We get quite personal at the end. So please treat that with care. Please. Okay, enjoy. Hey, hey.

How's it going? Good. How's it going? Good. Good. We've just had a lovely little chat as usual. I feel like that's almost part of the intro now. We've just had a chat. We've just been speaking about some things. And we can't get into it.

Yeah. It's always the same round to it. No. It's a really sunny day for both of us though right now, everyone. Really beautiful day. Welcome to spring, everybody. How are you feeling? Because when we first started speaking, we were a bit.

I was like, I think I might cry. But you didn't. God, that was so James Aicester. That was soed him. I literally just felt that. Why was that so him? I don't know my cry. Someone sent that to him, maybe he'll love me then. We are orbiting him slowly, I feel like. The day. I have, I have said a word to him before.

You have, yeah. Actually, no, I don't know if I did. My friend said something. I was too shy. You were there? I was there. I was in the vicinity. He's looked at me. Yeah, how are you feeling? I'm feeling really good now. Not really good. I'm feeling good. All right.

Okay. Not too good. Yeah. What about you? Yeah, fine. Good. I'm excited for another episode of goes out saying. My favorite.

As always. As always, my favorite podcast. It really is my favorite podcast. Um, all right. So, should we get straight in? Yeah, let's just do it. Because I really, oh no, I do have actually bad news for you. What?

Hyperia was closed. How bad is that? Oh god, that is bad I know, because of wins. That did really panic me though when you said I've got bad news for you and you looked quite serious. I was really devastating.

That's as far as that needs to go but I did forget to tell you that Hyperia was closed. You did forget to tell me that. I forgot to ask how, I forgot it existed. Yeah, that's fine. But you did send me a photo

and I really recognised the swarm. Yeah, yeah. I knew you would. I knew that I could send that to you with no context and you'd know that was sworn to. Yeah. Yeah. And just for you,

you guys who maybe don't have the context. We're talking about Thought Park. Seven about Thought Park yesterday. Crazy. Well, it's a shame to hear that Hyperas closed, but I'm sure she'll have never been on it. Yeah. Her time will come, I'm sure. On the UK's tallest and fastest roller coaster.

Is that what it says? I think so, yeah. Tallest and fastest. I think it's the UK's tallest. It's taller than stealth. That was so me in year five. Tallest and fastest. I was shortest and slowest.

That's why we're a good you like. Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely speedy. Yeah. And then I remember one time I was in a race for sports stage, just one of these racists. Races, not racist.

Oh, God. And my mum was like, why did you do that? Because basically, I felt bad for this other girl who was running. So I let her win. Oh, God, that's kind of dash. Come second, come second. Exactly. And my mum was like, why have you done that?

And only recently, you know, when almost you lose a memory and then it comes back to you? And it's like, wait. But that's so you. And I have been thinking that is a bit me to be like, oh, I'll just, I nominate myself to lose. A second, yeah. And I'll go second and she can come first. But it's nice.

It's fine. Yeah. I remember I thought that I had lost the World Cup for England in like 2006. God, world's most hated human. UK's most hated human. I was like 10 years old or something, maybe younger. Like, I don't know what year it was. It might be the World Cup or the United States.

euros or something and it was England v someone and like all my uncles around i feel like i might have told this story before on the pod all my uncles around we're all like watching the tv like whoo like maybe it was the final i don't know if any like big football hooligans out there can map when that was like what final i'm talking about yeah or it might have been a semi-final i don't know but i said to somebody oh who has won before has england won before and they were like yeah yeah england won like ages ago and then i was like oh has the other team won before and they were like no, no, no, that other team has never won before. So I was like, okay.

I think I know what's going on here. And then in my head I was like, huh, well, then it's only fair that the other team should win this time. So I was like, dear God, please let the other team win and don't let England win. You prayed. I was just like putting it out to the universe like, yeah, I think England shouldn't win this one because it's not fair. Yeah. And then England lost and I was like, oh shit. Everyone's devastated.

My uncles were so upset. and I was like, shouldn't have prayed. Shouldn't have done that. God. Okay, well, I kind of love that. I definitely am God. No, I think you definitely are. Definitely.

Definitely. Well, anyway, episode. Well, I love this idea. We literally just said it a second ago and it was like, yeah. Yeah. I don't know why it came to me. I just kind of having some interesting conversations recently and then I always want to run them by you, obviously. Sure, thank you.

Of course, because I was saying. It's kind of what you said about. We've never discussed this before. We've never discussed this as a concept. So I had a conversation with someone this morning and it kind of made me think about like, what is the line? Yeah. And we'll get into it.

So forgive or forget. It's an intriguing. That's the working title. Yeah, no, I don't know. I think we should speak with it. Forgive or forget. Yeah. Forgive or forget.

That is the question. Yeah. What are your immediate, there was an immediate spark for you. I have an immediate, end reaction. I'm in favour of one more than the other, but I also think we've spoken about this concept a lot of how it's hard to achieve. I think there's pressure on women to do it more often than men. Yes.

But I do think it for your own peace. And I think I'm even just thinking about like in my own life, if someone said like you have the choice, is it to forgive or to forget, I'm choosing to forgive. Or I'm choosing to aspire to forgive. Right. I'm not so bold to assume I could. Exactly.

It's definitely a desirable option. Yeah. To forgive. That sounds like, oh, well, everything can be okay. Yeah. Forget's not an option. Forget doesn't exist. Forget literally doesn't exist.

It's kind of Ariana Grande. It's kind of Eternal Sunshine. It's like, good luck forgetting your whole life. You can't. Okay, so what do you think, well first of all what do you think what's your initial well i think yeah i completely agree with you forgive is the one that's like that's definitely the good human thing to do it's very kind of good christian thing to do uh but i think our concept i know you agree socially our understanding

of forgiveness is kind of like flawed or like not nuanced enough i feel like socially there's a very black and white understanding of like oh do I forgive you yes cool let's move on I don't forgive you hate you bye whatever blah blah blah and I think the reality of what forgiveness looks like in most relationships is like ongoing yeah and I also think it's like you said like the forgiveness is really a relief to yourself like less about condoning a behavior from somebody else but more about like what does it take for you to feel okay in your life yeah and i do also think like you said forgiveness is a lot to ask especially for women but also just generally when trust is broken or when something has gone awry like there are very real deep consequences of that that i feel like

can be much more subconscious than I think people recognise and I think you might think in your waking life that you've moved on from something but I definitely think there's like a lot of muscle memory to the ways that people can hurt you and the way that that can like impact you and shape you over a longer period of time.

Totally. Almost where I feel like we've conflated saying you forgive someone with the actual feeling of forgiveness because often when you actually forgive someone there's no real world tell of it. Like it doesn't mean, oh, it's a quick way for me to get back with that person or it's a quick way for me to just like sort of be friends with that person again or whatever.

Often when you actually feel that feeling of like, oh my God, I forgive them. It doesn't change anything in the external world. It's almost like it truly is that feeling of... It happens in your mind. Yeah, it doesn't mean, okay, so that means that there. this can happen and this can happen. It's not like a gateway. If I need to pass through forgiveness to allow then things to resume as they were,

it just means it's a feeling of like letting go and peace, like within yourself. It doesn't mean, it often doesn't mean what we make, what we like conflate it with with this feeling of like, oh, I forgive them, which is actually like, oh, I've brushed it under the rug so that the thing can just continue. Yes. Yes. Not good. Not good.

Definitely not good. Often just invisible. It's just you. You know? It's just a thought. It's just a... Or it's not even if it's a feeling. It's a feeling.

So do you think there's no... Do you think there's any requirements for forgiveness? For you and then socially like... I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? Well, all right. Let's put us into a hypothetical situation.

I love to be in them. Why not? So say it's us, we are one person now. Yeah. And we are like in some sort of conundrum with another person. There's some sort of relationship happening, like whatever. Sorry, I'm really trying to get comfortable, but I'm trying to not show my ankles. I'm trying to just basically not put my feet on the camera in a really extreme way.

I washed them with like a blue pillowcase and they've all gone quite. gray. You can see on the camera. But it's really not what I wanted. You know, when it's like my white socks are all now. Like kind of almost like light sky blue. Terrible.

There's something really like early 2000s about that. I hate it. Like having kind of a nice colourful. They're like not but like they've just got a blue tint. Can I see? Oh yeah. There is just like it's very faint. You'd never tell.

There's a blue. There's a blue tinge to them. It's not quite what I wanted. Okay, so say we're like seeing somebody or like there's somebody in our life. Yeah. If you were thinking, I want to come to a place of like forgiveness, understandable, with this person, they've done something. What do I require from this person to feel like I can start moving towards forgiveness? I think they're separate.

It depends whether you want to continue the relationship with them. Forgiving someone and forgiving someone and almost like getting redemption from that person, like them apologising. and all of that stuff, those are separate. Often I think what happens is like forgiveness is like when you have had no apology, when all of the stuff is still very, they might not even ever acknowledge it. But it's that feeling in yourself of being like, yeah, I understand those decisions. I put my, like, I'm putting myself in their shoes and I like get it and I truly like forgive them. And I don't feel resentment for them anymore.

Even though I think what they did was wrong and all of the stuff, I do like understand it. Yeah. Versus having the conversation with someone where they're apologising and you're probably like apologising a little bit. Like there'll be a back and forth conversation and then moving to a place of like, okay, we forgive this. Like those are kind of two. One you need an apology for and one you don't.

But I don't think that again is like the gateway to it. Yeah. I think as well, sometimes having the conversation with them and the apology from them and the chatting about it and the unpacking with them actually makes it a little bit murkier and maybe sometimes harder to forgive because everyone's lost and emotions are high

of course I in my own responsibility in my own mind can come to a place of understanding of why you might have done what you've done and I think that is maybe what I need to work towards forgiveness I need to be able to understand where you were at and what you were feeling and what that meant for you and like isolate it down into like you did

this thing yeah regardless of what it did to me i understand where you were coming from when you did that and that brings me a sense of peace but i also think it can be quite confusing when you have a conversation with someone and they're offering up all these apologies and da da da da da yeah i think that does make it difficult to it doesn't necessarily alleviate and i think it feels it feels like it should be an immediate relief. And sometimes it is, but like having a conversation with someone where they're like, oh my God, I'm so sorry and da-da-da-da-da, and this happened. Or like, maybe they might not be saying sorry, but they might be saying, no, no, no, it was just this, this and this. Trying to, like, justify. Trying to justify maybe. Or like, I think getting

their understanding of it can actually make it more confusing sometimes. I agree. Definitely. And it, I think also sometimes people don't know why they've acted in a certain way. Like, they're not always going to give you the clear cut. I did this because of this, blah, blah, blah, blah. I definitely feel like when I've, if there's certain things I don't understand, and like, like, or if, usually often, like, if there's an anger at someone, it's because I don't understand their actions and I feel that I would act in a different way to them. And it's like, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't, I don't respect your behaviour and I wouldn't do that. Yeah. But I do feel like one of the things that is so important, like, it's, like,

It is that feeling of like working out why they did that and like really putting yourself in the shoes and being like, even if I would make different decisions if I'm in that exact same position, I understand why they did and almost getting rid of the narrative that they're like this evil person. Because I truly don't really think anyone is, there are obviously fucking evil people in the world. But I really don't think there are at the same time. Right here right now. Yeah. Like this sort of group is like be real guys. Like yeah, I think we're all pretty okay. Yeah.

it's like I don't, especially also the worst is when it's someone that you absolutely love. That's like I don't just, I don't agree with your decisions and I don't, um, respect them and all of the stuff and that's really tough. But like I have managed to get to places of like forgiveness in my life by being like, um, I understand it for them. Like I wouldn't do that and I like my values are different. But for them, I do understand that and I understand that they were working with it at their limits, you know? Yes. Like it's almost, um,

it's more a job of like connecting with them and like who they are than like them who I still find unreliable telling me a story and me being like, I understand it. Would there, could there still be an instance where you could understand them and where they were coming from and da-da-da-da, but still you couldn't forgive? 100%.

Yeah. Like what? Also, things that you need to forgive are usually like big fucking deals to you. Like they're not just like, little casual things like yeah I can forgive a little whatever but like things that I don't know the things that are like we're talking about like a forgive and forget sense they're like big meaningful things I feel like I'm still in a process now of I'm not even at forgiving like understanding and

like comprehending and like literally digging through like the murkiness of things that happened that then one day I've had moments of being like I forgive them and then moments of being fuming and then like Yes. I'm still working out. I feel like I'm going to be working it all out for quite a long time. Yeah. Okay. That's intriguing.

I don't know. What do you think about that? I think it's interesting because I agree with you that if forgiveness is a feeling, we won't always feel it. And you might come to a place of a feeling of forgiveness on one day. And then a few weeks or months or years might pass and on a random Wednesday. afternoon you might think oh i definitely don't forgive you right now yeah but is that more reflection of your current state of like maybe i just needed like to wash my hair and have something

to eat maybe it wasn't about them or maybe like i did just feel a moment of anger and that's not necessarily but then also is it more a thing less about the hair and the food and your mood but is it more about like our understanding of forgiveness as like a concept we think of it as like a fixed state kind of like enlightenment that you reach it and then you never, never stray from that path of forgiveness again. No, no, I think it's up and down. It's constantly like in and out and out. Is forgiveness letting go? I definitely think it has that feeling.

Like, if you tune into the feelings, like when you forgive someone. There's something in it. The palate. There's something like, what is it? Is forgiveness letting go? Is that, God, okay, is an interesting episode. No, there is. Like, just getting to the crux of forgiveness.

to know if you guys have ever heard of it? No. So true, honestly. Have you ever heard of it? But if you've ever felt it. Like true, like, not to being like, yeah, I forgive you, but like actual like I'm, I god, like almost that moment of being like, fuck, I actually like feel peace with it. Like I thought that is the feeling of being like I feel, yeah, like a weight has been lifted almost. Because also like what's that thing about like resentment?

I think this can also be said for jealousy, but like resentment. is just like kind of like hitting yourself and expecting the other person to bleed or something like that. There's some kind of, it's not that, but it's like holding a hot object

and expecting the other person to be that. It's like it's actually all you're doing really is torturing yourself. Yeah. But then it's how the fuck you, like there are certain things. But then is it realistic to ever get to a state of total letting go?

Forever. Yeah. No. Yeah, no. But I was watching. It's actually funny that this has come up because I watched this years ago, but I thought of it the other day. It was a scene of a man in court. It's like an old man and I think his like family had been like killed by someone.

Okay, that's a really horrible scene. It was something. Is it real? Yeah, it was a real thing. Don't know what it was. You might have seen this video. It must have done the rounds on social media for me to see it. It must have been popular for me to see it.

Yeah. It came right up to your rock and said, hey. It really did. one of the things that's made it through. Yeah. And it was a man and he was like crying and he was like, this has taken me a long time. And to like think of what I'm going to say to you today.

Like he's speaking to the guy that's like killed his family or I don't know what he did. But he's like, and the thing I want to say to you is that I forgive you. And the guy, the old man is crying and the man that's done the whatever is crying. Yeah. And it's like, fuck. Like it doesn't have. I think I might have seen that as well. It's crazy, yeah.

And it really has stuck with me. And I'm sure it's stuck with everyone. It's seen this weird video. Because it's like, it doesn't matter whether you feel this thing, like, you know, it's constant, blah, blah, blah. But he felt that in the moment that it mattered to him, to like, what are you going to say to this man? You get one chance to say this thing to the man.

And you've thought about it. You thought about it. It's like, wait, fuck. Because I'm sure you start off writing your speech. And it's like, I fucking hate your fucking gas, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. and you move through it. And it's like actually it all boils down to like,

I forgive you. Which is a crazy point to get to. But then there is a part of frustration that I think forgiveness, yes, is like internal and it's about you and it's you like stopping hitting yourself and expecting someone else to get hurt. And it's you like dropping the hot coals when you've been expecting someone else to get burnt or whatever.

There's, it's, you know, it's for you. But in that situation that I know nothing about, Or like in life, I think it's unfortunate that some people get forgiven. Because they don't deserve it. What I took from that video, obviously I don't, like, I agree. But also. No, no, I think it's lovely. I think it's like, that's what we should, you know, that's beautiful.

It's so beautiful. And I think that's what kind of struck me of like, it felt like, and I have no idea who this man is he could be a fucking moron. Like, he might have just wasted his chance to get his, like, revenge. I don't know. But it felt like. like he had that the first instinct almost is to be like to fucking burn his house down or whatever you know kill them whatever then it's like okay I'm gonna look you in the eyes and say

this thing but it felt like it was like genuinely the thing that I feel feel like is meaningful to say at this moment is this thing which obviously is so unsatisfying it's got no redemption and it's like I think it is satisfying because it shows that he's come a long way and he's had his own personal journey, but the person who has done the wrong doesn't deserve it. It's so lucky now to be, to have wronged to someone who is so forgiving. But that's the whole thing. And that's life. The essence of the, of forgiveness is saying, I understand why you've done this bad thing.

Like, you've done something wrong. Like, and it doesn't. And I'm letting it leave me. Like, the essence is so frustrating. But like you said at the beginning, I think it's a lot to ask especially of women. And I think there is something really, really important. And I think quite necessary in like, for example, not forgiving.

Women feeling vengeful and feeling angry and feeling validated in their anger and feeling like they're allowed to like sit in that. Yeah. It's not pleasant and it's not healthy and I'm not happy about that. But like I think it's quite necessary for a lot of women to be able to process things that have been done to them. Been done to them. Yeah. And not, I don't know.

there's something, this is kind of why I think our definition of like forgiveness is actually just like a stepping stone to just like the resuming of like the unhealthy relationship or whatever or just being like brushing under the rug of like whatever. Yeah, he cheated on me but like I forgive him and everyone knows like, okay, is that actually just like you've brushed that under the carpet? Like there's been no actual forgiveness. So no forgiveness in the room here like that is not happening. But and yeah, I like I think women's anger is so important. Like that is actually what saves women from like dangerous situation. and like dangerous men like it's the most it's so valuable to like hold on to and like remember what someone did wrong to you and I think there's a lot of character in it almost like I think

there's a certain well obviously like expectation put on like what a woman should be and when we shine this like very narrow kind of spotlight on a woman and it's only supposed to like highlight the nice things and the pure things and the loving things and she's forgiving and all of this stuff. But like she might be a bit funny when she's angry and it would be fun to kind of shift that spotlight a little bit and allow for a little bit of room of like your character when you let yourself dip your toe nicely into some like sassy, petty, vengeful, icky, not nice. The Tona Swist, I think is the kind of essence of that.

So sassy. Yeah. Of like the essence is like there's something very like, um, catty and like I'm gonna there's an evilness there sometimes like when she, that's my favorite bits of her like she's obviously not evil

and she's literally like a star she's a queen. But like my favorite bits of her is when she like gets into that bit where it's a bit like fuck you. The blank space like it's got a self-awareness in the anger which I really like. Yeah and I think it's really important to like

because I think it can be quite a a release for anyone who and I think often women are most subject to this going through your life being told that you need to be a certain way and it needs to look like goodness and forgiveness and being unkind and being like a good girl or whatever being able to validate being a bit mean or being a bit angry yeah i think is really important because i think otherwise we find ourselves in a space where i have to take a picture of Ozzy, I'm so sorry.

Oh my god, you can cut this, but like... No, no. Like, I'm sorry, but... He just stuck his head out of the blanket. Oh, my God. Come on now. You guys.

Oz boss. I haven't seen Ozzy in a while, actually. I would get him out of the thing, but I won't disturb him. Well, no, I'm more saying I need to come to Brighton at some point. Like, I haven't seen him and, like, haven't been like... Yeah. Pat that butt in quite a while. Otherwise, we find ourselves, if we don't indulge those, like,

small, fun, light-hearted, mostly harmless instincts to, like, be a bit sassy or, like, stand up for ourselves every now and then. I feel like we can overdevelop this kind of fear of shaming who we are because we can't acknowledge the bad parts of ourselves, if that makes sense. It makes perfect sense. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you don't allow yourself to be, like, the small amount of means. that you are, you will shame yourself into thinking that you are this horrific person, which I just doubt that you're not, like, realistically, like, hello, I'm looking around. And it's like, what, you, like, 22-year-old girl living your life?

I'm supposed to think you're evil, am I? I just don't. Like, sorry, I just don't believe it. Yeah. I think you're fine, probably. I think it's just, we shame ourselves into thinking that who we are is wrong or our instincts are wrong, our behaviours are wrong, when they're actually very normal and human. and I think ideals like forgiveness can be quite unrealistic for a lot of people and I think it's loaded so much with this idea of like if you were good enough you would just forgive and maybe that isn't necessary yeah and maybe that isn't realistic for a lot of human beings like almost well if you could just move past it if you could just be kind enough and loving enough and empathetic enough to understand where they were coming from and almost first.

pushes the blame and the responsibility and the hurt on the person who has been wronged maybe it can be a little bit I think it gets a little bit messy I think when it's like right now we require the person who has been so fucked over to now also take on this huge endeavor yeah show yourself prove yourself to me that you're a good person and you're a loving person you're a kind person yeah you're empathetic and your understanding and prove to me that you can forgive show me how kind you are. It's like not cool, I think, say to like young women. But that's why I think it's separating like your forgiveness of the person is like,

that's a long journey. It's not like a quick way to get back in the relationship or whatever. Like that's why we make it a quick process like, oh, I've forgiven him. Okay, what, in two weeks? I don't think you have. Two days. It will be a long, lifelong, like kind of journey, which I use a horrible word, of like forgiving this person, but understanding and processing.

and like letting go of what this person did wrong to you. It is completely separate from your relationship with that person. It's not about, oh, right, okay, so I've forgiven him, and now he's gotten away with all this stuff, and now I've got this responsibility to do this, to forgive this person for doing the stuff. And to take it on myself, mostly, like, they're not lifting a finger, are there? No, they're not lifting a finger,

and there's this weird pressure on the woman to do it. Oh, God, well, if you just forgive me for this thing, then we could just get on with our lives. It's not, I don't think forgiving someone maybe does go, that they're completely separate, your relationship with that person after you've forgiven them

and your forgiveness of that person. They're not the same. Even your relationship to yourself, I think, even if they, you never speak again or whatever, or even if the forgiveness is not discussed, even if it is just like a private thing in your mind that every now and then, you think have I forgiven that?

I think that's what it should be. I think that's what it actually is. And I think be truthful. Yeah. There's no shame in feeling like, I don't think I've let that quite go yet. Or like, I don't know if I do forgive that. I'm sure you haven't.

Maybe I do understand it, but I still don't feel great about it and actually fuck you. Or like, if you think about the things that people have done wrong to you, you kind of will always feel a little bit angry about it. I think you probably should feel a little bit. But yeah, let's muster up a bit of an, like, it's fucking weird if you don't. But even if, like, you're only one human in there. Even if, like, deep down at your call, you're like, yes, when I tune into it, I forgive them, I understand all this stuff.

Of course, of course you're going to always feel a bit like, oh, fuck's sake, that was fucking annoying. That was fucking rude, whatever. These things are annoying and, like, that doesn't mean that, like, deep down you don't forgive and, like, all of the stuff. Yeah. You're going to flip around. All of this stuff is, kind of it's all a mixed bag.

Like, I don't think forgiveness is this clean cut. No, forever. it's just absolutely not and what about forget forget i don't think exists i don't think that's a thing okay go on why not do you think that's a thing forget well forget the things people have done wrong to you well i also think look me and you are very specific kind of people i've learned and we have had this conversation a few times in our years of like hmm maybe maybe some people do forget, I think, or maybe some people do seek to forget, or maybe some people just require less fucking conversation taking it, taking everything to its final conclusion. Like,

does everything need to be thought out for an hour, not necessarily? No. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. But those people are not forgetting their, they're brushing. I don't, I don't know. Like, from what I've heard some people are forgetting things and forgiving and forgetting things and feeling really good. I truly... What? Yeah, no, I agree. I don't know. But, but... I have a friend. Go on. Who is a brusher. I will often say...

Oh, yeah. For example, we have... Like, we've been friends with her for years, and we'll have an argument, and she says she hates me, of course. I don't let things like... I don't let us brush it under the carpet. And I also, yeah, I like to, like, trust that we've got to the point where we both understand each other. I also think she's probably got quite a bit better at this. She's been forced, 100%.

Yeah, I think it's, like, through just the exposure, she's gotten so much better than she was previously. Definitely. Like, she was, like, I would just rather carry the resentment of just, like, that was fucking rude and awkward. And we just, like, that fucking annoys me. but like the idea of having the conversation, like the conversation we're both going to cry and having an awkward thing, that just feels like, oh God, it's just difficult,

which I agree. I think that's a normal response. No, I couldn't agree more. Me too. I think an argument is probably my worst state of existence. It's never on my to-do list, I say. It's actually on my to-do. No.

I will be in instant tears, I'll be shaking, my words will not be coming out right. I am not human. It's awful. It's awful. It's the worst of the worst. Like, it's absolutely. like traumatising. It's disgusting.

But I want to reach that point of like we both understand each other otherwise that will continue like it will linger and continue and it just is horrible but my friend that's a brusher I think she might be a reformed brusher I think she is now do you know what I mean? I don't think she's

she's not brushing practicing brush I haven't heard her initiate a non brush. You know what I do think it's a lot to ask. There's so much, so much to ask. It's so much to ask. But I also think like...

And also not every... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. No, I agree with you. Not everyone needs... Not every conversation needs that and all of that. It doesn't. I was also... I was going to say not everyone is traumatized in a specific way that like...

Needing to heal every argument to its fullest extent. I'm like, well, if I don't say to Seffi, oh my God, do you hate me when you left the door open? Then maybe she'll leave me. Like, my parents left her. each other. Yeah, look, we're fucked, yeah. Do you know, I mean? It's like, oh, okay, so your parents hated each other. Let's not recreate that. And also, maybe it does come from, because my friend that's a

brusher, parents are a lovely, happy relationship. That's why I brought it up. Yeah, and I am a non-brusher and you also non-brusher. Yeah. Parents, not so happy. I think it's like, yeah, it's scary to think of what might happen when we have the argument, but it is also much much scarier to me to think of what happens if we were to not speak this through and then the I know what happens then. I've looked it in the face. I don't like it. So I want to avoid these horrible relationships I've seen.

Completely. So obvious what it's born out of, isn't it? It's like we're scared. We're not scared of confrontation. Well, we are. We hate it and I hate it so much. But I would rather go through that. Yeah.

I know the other side. I've looked in the eyes of death. And I don't like what I see. I've looked at this relationship and thought, well, I see how that went wrong. So I won't do that. creating that. I'll make my own messes.

I'll do my own things wrong. But yeah, I'm not going to do what my parents did. I'll just make my own weird mistakes. No, exactly same. I love our own weird mistakes. But I think it's a mark of our love and attention and like respect. Like if I am bothering to have the conversation that is so unpleasant, like it's so degrading, embarrassing as well to be crying and all of the stuff.

It's like if... That's funny that you think it's degrading and embarrassing. what to be like you fucking do it it's so embarrassing that's so funny i never ever would have thought of it as like degrading and embarrassing i hate i hate an argument so much i would have thought it would be like scary because it feels like you're showing something real whereas your thing is like i don't want be seen as weak yes completely god we're really like traumatized we're like literally nine year old yeah no definitely if you literally took us at nine and just aged us up then that's exactly what we would say at that age as well just chip that off as it's straight yeah as it is

Mortifying. Absolutely mortifying. Absolutely mortifying. Yeah. But it's not, obviously it's not. But like if I'm going to do that and it's a real sign that like I value that fit. Like it's not, because you're not willing to, it's not worth it a lot of the time with people to be like, oh, I don't actually care to make sure we're on the same page about it. But like, I don't know. Yeah. I think it's important to have the conversations though. I really do. Like, so do I. So do I. I. I do think it's important. Yeah. And I also think, like you said, like, there's going to be crying and you're going to be shaking, you can't get your words out and da-da-da-da. And you might not resolve it straight away as well. That's the-her. It might not be resolved straight away. Yeah, it's not. But part of that is like, yeah, you're going to be shaking and crying or whatever because it's like a weird, it feels unnatural to have conflict with somebody that you love and da-da-da-da. But also, I think a part of that is a display of the emotion that is physically stored within you already that you've been burying. Yeah, like, yeah, you're crying and you're shaking because you're like, oh my God, a bit anxious because I'm arguing with my friend or arguing with someone that I love or whatever. Yeah.

That's one thing, but I also think you're crying and you're shaking because this is meaningful to you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it now is coming out to the surface. But just because you're not walking around your life, shaking and crying, doesn't mean it's not there. But you're in the shower, washing your hair, like having a fake argument. Right.

You're doing that. Don't tell me it's not where. Yeah. You've got something to say. Yeah, you're fuming. You're annoyed. Please, please. Yeah.

Take the floor. Which is why I think resentment Like My friend that's a brusher She would literally say the word Like I would rather just be like kind of always a bit Like I would just rather be resent Rather literally resent them forever blah blah blah

And it's like that obviously she's being very honest There like most people I feel like would not acknowledge the fact that like Yeah I'll just be resentful Of that thing But I do think that is what realistically happens Like even just minute things that annoy you Don't tell me you don't tell me don't replay that all the time.

Like, I'll be on a walk and be like, fucking hell, why am I having a fake fake argument? Or not even argument. Why am I having a fake like redemption moment where I'm saying, you shouldn't have. You, I would never do that to someone.

Like, what am I doing? I think as well, I, another layer in my personal experience, I would love to know how you feel about this and how you listening feel about it. I feel like I, yeah, I don't want the confrontation as is awkward and whatever, da-da-da, but I also,

it takes a lot for me to like, I have to really muster up, like, wait, am I allowed to feel annoyed or am I allowed to be feeling a certain type of way about something that happened? Because I think my main thing is I'll dismiss it because I feel like I'm not allowed to have any gripes with anybody

so I don't even feel like I'm allowed to raise it that's my thing that I have to navigate in my mind of like no no it's okay to like feel whatever about something I think a lot of people will relate to you I know they work and see it now that is just I know that is Please let me know.

I know. I know that is make it clear. Going to be so, like, relevant 100%. And I know I'm so, um,

not relatable or, I don't know. Or, you're definitely related. No, I'm so, I'm so related, but I think this aspect of myself is like,

um, not, not many people tell me they agree. So it's, that's fine. And like, you feel validated in your, and I don't mean it in,

like, I'm literally the most insecure person. But like, I really do feel like I'm allowed to show my emotions and things like, that and I do feel like if someone's annoyed me it doesn't necessarily cross my mind am I allowed to feel annoyed but what does I think is so important is like I have to take the moment to like not even a moment I kind of obsess over it the how they feel and like really putting myself in their shoes and like

looking at my behaviour from their perspective I feel like is a really important step that it's like because often this has happened so many times I'll be really annoyed. annoyed and I'll be oh my fucking name blah blah blah blah and then when I take and I feel okay in that feeling and I feel like that's allowed but when I turn it around and like view the situation from their perspective and like kind of guess at their like narrative of it and versus my narrative of it I can really understand it I'm like yeah fuck okay so I actually have been a dick in loads of occasions and like I'm not this um my narrative was kind of warped like in the first place which obviously it is in every way for everyone.

But I think that's more what I have to take the step to like, I feel okay. You have to make an effort to. But then even when I do flip it, I still feel okay. Like, okay, I felt angry and all of the stuff, but they do as well. Like, that's fine. I think that's the thing is I think everyone's allowed to be angry at me.

In fact, I think that's everyone's default. Yeah. I presume everyone's angry at me because I'm doing things wrong. But the thought that someone could have, have wronged me as like I well you should really sort out because people have wronged you no no they really had like boy I'm surprised I'm getting better at it but no you I'm like way better on it like I've I've really got a good grip on it but you I just can identify that that is my instinct of like oh I didn't realize I went through my whole life thinking other people could

never be in the wrong that's mental so there's bloody parents again they're all of it. Like, actually, I'm not trying to be rude, but like, guys, come on now. I've got my eyes on two people and I... Honestly. These people are. It was bloody one of years. Yeah, literally.

Is there anything that you could do that you wouldn't forgive yourself for? Oh my God, that's a fucking great question. Thanks. Amazing. Thank you. Yes. Gone then. There are loads.

Like, but I have one that I thought of recently. that I just I don't know how I'd possibly wrap my head around this okay this is I'm kind of going to give you guys um I'm receiving it with love and with grades so like yeah this is like my childhood like thing all right everybody on their best behavior and also like I I'm still trying to work out the full story of what happened here okay you know okay okay okay do brus do brats okay so many things I could not forgive myself for um like cheating would be one of them murder would be another, all of these things. Right, right, sure.

Stealing, I'd let it go. In fact, I feel quite good about it. You live and you learn. But there was one thing that I thought of that I really, really, I don't know how I would like cope. So, if I was to get with a man that had kids, I don't think like if there's a man with a family

with young children if I was a woman doing that to children I could not live with myself and I think that was basically that I if I was to do that I would die

like that is fucking killing like knowing what that does to children and knowing that like um living that it from that perspective to to to see children suffering as a result of my consequence my decisions as like a woman that is anti-maternal anti-woman um and just like despicable like the thing i value probably most in this world is like children like i literally am like that like children's like safety and like feeling like probably the thing I like care for the most in this world. I if I had like hurt children through my own selfish actions

and this is by no means like villain of this story but if I was to do that I would have a very hard time living with myself just because of I would be repeating a cycle of literally destruction and I think that and I think to do that is despicable. Like, to do what?

I think to like, um, to pursue potentially a man with children and by no means am I saying the man is not the man here is the villain of that. Man is villain. You guys know that to be true. Man equals villain. But as a woman, as a woman whose friends are saying, what are you doing? Who's, you know, I, well, should have been to, or if I was to do that, you would literally look at me and say, what the fuck am I doing?

All of this stuff. I've said, I've heard this is your greatest, you know, regret. never do it. It would never happen. But to be a woman doing that to children, to be, to feel fine about that, to just be living your life and just expect them to sort of get on board with all this stuff.

To be loving it. I could not live with that. Like that would fucking destroy me, I think. And I would never. I really want to underline everything you just said. Valid, validate, validate, validate so much. But then also, I want to give you the moment to talk about something that I think you would feel is like or just I want to basically invite you to make a comment cordially invited to talk about like

because the expectation you kind of did but the expectation that we put on women to be good is higher than the expectation that we put on men totally by miles that's all I wanted to say by absolute miles but I think my expectation of women is high and my expectation of women. Sure. My expectation of men is low. Like it is, we live in a patriarch. My expectation of this, I expect betrayal and shit behavior from men. Like I just do.

Like, doesn't surprise me. And that's not a way I would ever want to act just because they get away with it, you know? Yes, 100%. It's like, yeah, they can, they do this shit. We've seen it. Like, we're talking about forgiveness, but a lot of this has been, we know what this is. Like, look, come on. I think it's really interesting that we've been having a conversation about like, it's like, it's quite big.

It's a loaded thing. Forgiveness and forgetting and like concepts of like moving on in relationships and what we can let go and self-respect and conflict and communication and all of these things. And it is intriguing to me how much of this for us has boiled down to or like I think the listener might be like, oh, you haven't spoken about it that much. But I feel like I can see because I'm attuned to myself and you. Yeah. How much of this is coming from our own experience. as like kids. Because that's weird, isn't it?

Yeah, I think I would have, like, talking about forgiveness or whatever. Yeah, it feels casual. It's like, whatever. It's like nothing to me. But I think. But interesting that those concepts draw from a place of like what means the most. But do you think it's because we had to, at young, as young children, that was a thing that was like thrust on us quite like, at literally the exact same age. How much can you cope with?

Just to be like, um, what can you handle and now you get on with it? forgive someone. You're like your primary caregivers like you need to as a child. Don't you think even the concept of I don't think it was maybe a discussion of like not even discussion but I don't necessarily feel like I had the awareness of no I had no idea. This is something that you need to forgive. But it was just like get on with it like get on with that relationship. It's almost like to be invited or told to forgive would involve that implies that there's an awareness of something has been done wrong to you. I knew that. I didn't I didn't think I didn't think I didn't feel like anyone was looking at me thinking something bad is happening to you.

Even though looking back as an adult now I can see very clearly something bad was definitely happening to you. And like, yeah, that is definitely. I think even the question of forgiveness, implying that there's something to forgive, would be putting too much acknowledgement on. These people were pretending like they weren't doing anything wrong to me. Yeah, 100%. Well, that's also what I hate. I think that's also kind of what I'm getting at.

with that thing of if I was a woman to basically treat children in that way, I think one of the large things is there not being the space for the children to have issues with that. To be like, to be as the woman just suddenly like, I'm here and that's what's happening. Yeah. I think the awareness I would have as a woman in suddenly children's lives would be, huge. Oh my god. It would be fucking insane. It would be life ruining. So much so that I think like it's wrong it's wrong it's wrong. So much so that what? I think I would never pursue it. I would never go for it like but I also think that is from a position of like, that's your personal

hurt. Yeah. It's like it's like if you've lived it. Of course you don't want it. It's like yeah okay if you would you don't just want to. You went to boarding school. you're not going to send your kids to boarding school, fine. If you had a horrible tie but fucking... I can't upset a child that is just me, you know? Right. Never going to happen. Totally.

Totally. Do you have something that you couldn't forgive? Well, I'm not just going to do the same thing back, but essentially I would see. Like, not that specific one, but my version of that would be that. Which is interesting to me, because I don't think I necessarily thought that talking about forgiveness and stuff would take us to this place but I do think it's interesting I think it's like maybe a good reminder of like how much of our beliefs and like truly how we like see and navigate the world is shaped by like how did they treat you when you were like eight did people take you

seriously when you were eight years old did people hear you out did people support you did people make sure you were okay did they think about your feelings did they like yeah you looked after in like a deep way were you like Like, do you know what I mean? Totally. Because looking back now, I think, maybe not. No one needed that for, like, almost like, my God. But it is interesting.

Mm. All right. Do you feel like you've forgiven, like, for example, the situations that we're talking about, like, for example, like, kind of being like, I would never do that. Do you feel like you have forgiven that thing then? No. Mm. No.

No. Absolutely not. Puming. trying to. If I'm working on forgiveness in my life, you're the last on my list, I'll put it that way. Like, I think of you when I need to. And like, I'll, it's already a big burden to carry.

I'm not going to then be like, right, it's time for me to start working on my forgiveness. I'm just trying to survive. I'm just trying to get through. Yeah, literally. And like, yeah, we could be unpacking this all day and all night. I'm trying to, I think, get to it. Of course.

I'm not even necessarily trying to that scenario, like that specific case, but like that larger situation, I'm trying to like release a bit, I think. Right. I think that's my main thing is like I want to feel at a point of like peace and stuff. And I think about like what do I want this to look like? I think that's the thing that I find hard to figure out. it feels like every way forward is painful, like almost, if I am okay with you when we do this,

then that is still painful for me. And if I do this, then that is still painful. And if I cut you out, then that is painful. And if I do this, then that is painful. And if I'm weighing up those, like, there's sometimes not a nice, easy way out of a situation, regardless of forgiving and forgetting and moving on and letting go. It's maybe not always, like,

there might not be an obvious way. through a situation, I think. They probably won't be. Like in the ones that mean the most, I think, and the heaviest and that are like the most complex, like difficult situations. Which are the things that are an effort to forget. Like. It's a huge effort to forgive and,

and even like being able to understand how you feel about something. Yeah. I think is hard in itself. Because you can feel everything all the time. Like, I feel like, okay I understand what you did entirely to be honest I completely see how someone could be at that point and do these things and da da da da da at the same time I'm extremely disappointed that you did that to me I'm hurt I'm still unpacking the ways that that is impacted literally my behaviours and my

personality and my experience of my life as an individual on the planet yeah and I'm disappointed that you couldn't do more for me yeah yes at the same time I feel bad for you and I hope you're totally and I love you more than anything and I'm devastated yeah exactly anything else? I'm currently not working on forgiving. Like, I just... Not actively. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Parente. Who'd have them? Fuck you. Love you. Love you so much. Love you more than anything. But literally go for you off.

Fuck you, you fucking cunt. I hate you. I love you. Yeah. But love. But love. But love. Like, you poor thing.

And that's the problem. Blah, blah, blah. No, no, that is the problem. Yeah. Love is so painful. Yeah. Okay, well, what a weird little episode. Genuinely.

Sorry, Harry. Definitely very much a pocket episode. Very much a pocket episode. Outlier in the season. Maybe not. I don't know. It's interesting to see how they're received versus like what's going on in our heads for us. We do talk about this quite a lot.

Like, the last episode actually, I was like, oh, God. Like, I don't know how I feel about that when I was, like, I think I would even say in the episode. I'm like, oh, God, I don't know. And then you listen back and it's like, listen back and it was like, just when I was editing it, I was really like, oh, okay, like, and we've spoken about this that like, the experience that's happening inside us and actually what the audio track and now this video is showing, you can't tell really anything. Like, this might be like the softest, nicest thing, but we're both, it's personal for us and we're like feeling a certain way. But it could just be like, they don't really correlate that much. I think the podcast has really taught me that a lot.

Over the past couple of years, I've really learned that like the experience of the day, the reality of what happens in life and in the day is very separate to whatever's going on in here. Totally. Like in your mind. Okay. Well, I hope good things are going on for you in mind. I hope you okay. I really hope so.

And if you don't hear from us, Assume the last.