Goes Without Saying - "friendzoning" & sexual violence: "no" is a full sentence.

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

TW: rape & sexual violence. is he really a 'nice guy', or is he using 'niceness' to coerce you into sex? in this extremely raw and angry episode of Goes Without Saying, join us (sephy & wing) as we try our hardest to unpack rape culture, transactional sex, and consent. why do 'nice guys' get angry when they are friendzoned, and why to they feel entitled to women's bodies? come with the fury with us and remember that 'no' is a full sentence. join the conversation every monday. speak your mind on our instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com So welcome back to another episode of Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. And it's my turn to do the intro, unfortunately, because I don't know. I literally don't know how to describe this episode what we've just recorded other than the best thing you'll ever hear the best thing you'll ever hear will change your life groundbreaking revolutionary completely unique one of a kind never been done before yeah never been done before is the one that really hits home the reference we also are taking a break after this episode not

because this episode was too hard for us nothing like that this was scheduled we've told you we've told you before but you may have missed it we're doing 10 episodes a week off 10 episodes a week off to give you a chance to catch up to give us a chance to regain our energy well just to give this episode a chance to breathe let it resound let it all sink in we're talking about nice guys we're talking about when a guy calls himself a nice guy should you believe them spoiler alert no run for the hills friend zoning rape culture consent all of these topics that we just apparently can't stop talking about but apparently it needs to be said it doesn't go without saying that when we say no we mean no so anyway here we go fucking hell i really i actually

don't want to do this i know i feel like i'm being i'm not quite alarming to listen to but i feel like i'm being held at gunpoint i'm not i feel like i am the energy that i'm giving is really don't want to be here because you're scared to do this topic or just you'd rather go to bed always would rather go to bed but ultimately yeah rather go to bed. But ultimately, yeah, too much to say. So many thoughts, much anger, much sadness. But also kind of it's one big fat joke as usual. We're going to try and do this because we were just reading your messages. And honestly, I thought I might cry.

I thought I was like, okay, I might cry in this episode, which I really don't fucking want to do. But it's like, actually, there's a lot to cry about. You've all got so many stories where it's like you're essentially being fucking abused and the fact that that is just so normalized it's like oh my friend um used to like force himself on me sometimes it's like no that's not casual this is depressing this is fucking fucked and we're gonna try and construct some kind of fun little game show around this kind of here's the worst thing ever create an hour of fun around it i think in reality we are going to be angry and i hope you're angry too literally around the topic of rape culture and nice guys and also i think i was just getting quite triggered by

i mean i've said this in some of the episodes before but like our friends follow our page as well and things like that but then it's like sometimes you see people you know voting things in the polls and it's like oh i want to grab you by the shoulders and shake you someone done that i saw one of my friends well i saw a few people i know voting so i did quite on the poll there was one that was like if a guy described himself as a nice guy would you believe him and i put one as like lol never and one as a bit of a joke a bit of an ironic joke saying why would he lie why would he lie though and i saw people voting why would he lie like unironically why would he lie like who can you tell me who a woman that's quite it's quite frustrating for girls it's kind of like

you're talking but all i hear is pick me pick me or just a lack of screaming and shouting and all i hear is pick me why would he lie sorry are you have you been paying attention why would he lie why wouldn't he lie so recently i've been having this thing where i'm kind of thinking like am i taking this is it too deep to me am i taking this is it is it is it becoming my whole my whole personality is that i don't want girls to get raped blah blah blah like i'm kind of like am i too am i taking this too deep am i too invested in in this which i can't stop am i too invested in my own safety apparently but recent and i don't and i'm kind of thinking am i am i a bit am i jaded am i bitter am i angry or is the reality

that kind of every woman that i know that would be honest if i asked her have you ever been uncomfortable in a sexual situation and gone along with it for your own safety or to keep them comfortable they would say yes am i crazy or is that the truth and recently oh god i'm crying honestly i think i lost my voice um but it's kind of that thing of like am i am i berserk am i not have i gone bananas daddy's gone mad hasn't he but honestly sephie and wing have gone mad haven't they it really feels like are we seeing this right so recently like over the past kind of 48 hours i think it was yeah um when we're recording this now a statistic came out where they are saying that

97 of women um at least in the uk i believe have been sexually assaulted i think it was sexually harassed harassed fair enough i would even stretch sexually assaulted but anyway i think harassment kind of um belittles it it's like is that not well harassment is kind of sexual harassment is just how we it's it's literally just one conversation with your boss it doesn't cover it it's like sexual harassment is kind of the whole plot of friends like sexual harassment is the very air that we breathe it's every romantic story ever it's like you coded my desire the things i desire in life are actually when you break it down just sexual harassment absolutely are you kidding me so we're recently loving jim carrey i feel like oh boy

there's no rhyme or reason to what i'm coming out with can we talk about jim carrey we're quite loving jim carrey yeah i was watching a you know good old jim carrey best moments or something yeah oh no no it wasn't even it was jim carrey like speaking about manifesting and they had spliced in with his like words of wisdom then they would cut to like a scene from bruce almighty and then it would be like word of wisdom like powerful like kind of classical music over the top and then cut to him with a long beard exactly yeah well that's i think isn't that evan oh no i was thinking jim carrey has a big beard now oh absolutely right okay okay evan does grow a big beard that's evan almighty okay big mess

over we're mixing we're mixing films right yeah so it's kind of beautiful like hans zimmer soundtrack jim carrey talking about why you deserve everything that you desire in life and then it cuts to a scene from an old classic bruce almighty if you haven't seen it i would recommend despite this scene where he's walking down the street and and I believe the song is, I got the power. Classic Jim. Are you familiar with this? Yeah, yeah. But as he walks down the street, he's basically, he has the power of God within him, if you don't know the plot. And he does all these crazy things that I believe he makes his girlfriend Jennifer Aniston's boobs bigger. So this scene where he's walking down the street, I got the power. He's walking down the street, I the power vibes and he i think makes a big gust of wind as

as a attractive young lady walks past he creates a big gust of wind that lifts up her skirt and he looks back at her and he kind of and she's like and she like screams and like runs and she's like holding her skirt down and this is a funny montage and that's what i thought was funny when i was six years old well you're kind of a bit of use like i want jim carrey to make my skirt blow up and he looks at my knickers and i go ah exactly that's how i learned to live how romantic yeah that's how i learned my work yeah as a child i know that my bum is my work i need to look good enough yeah to have my skirt blown up and make it cool and funny yeah you just want to be chosen so no wonder your friend is on the story going pick me pick me why would they lie and it's heartbreaking because it's like we've romanticized our own oppression that's heartbreaking

yeah yeah it's disgusting oh god I'm done already I'm get me out of here but also love Jim Carrey it's like I'm trying to cling to Jim Carrey to get me out of this. This is also another thought that I'm having recently of kind of like, we all have to take accountability. Absolutely. However, that also coincides with we are all only symptoms of this society. Like there's so much more that we can do. But also when you've learned, sometimes I think if it's a woman feeling bad about the ways that she's internalized her own misogyny,

it's kind of don't, I would say. Like don don't like maybe you've got some apologies to give out fine but I think it's a little it maybe isn't helpful it's a little bit of a waste of time for us all to start becoming a little bit too navel gazey about the ways that we've internalized this disgusting world because of course you would what other choice do you have literally at the same time do more be there show up so much to do absolutely but you're already being tortured every day of your life don't add more torture and it's kind of an active part we've got to play in unlearning all those behaviors and think why would i like it if jim if i was cast as the girl in the film that jim carrey puts his little fingers up and your skirt goes up girl one yeah hot girl one why would i love to be cast as that oh my god mom i just got

the role of hot girl one it's like yeah it's cool yeah it feels good it's like why would you like that why do you desire a werewolf and a vampire who one is who is a hundred and something years old fighting over you and a werewolf to imprint on your baby the other one wants to rape your daughter yeah why do you desire that oh because we were taught it we were taught that violence is attractive we were taught the bad guys are attractive we all love danny zuko we should have been going for what's his name eugene oh my god to be honest should have been going for fucking um what's her name frenchy big time marty to be honest if i'm not rizzo marty's the star marty but she was going for that weird old man marty's the star she's good for that weird old

fucking man he was hot i thought they were a hot couple what's his name the old man at the dance oh oh him not him not him that's not um is it bruce fontaine or something bruce fontaine yeah is it bruce or am i saying bruce because bruce almighty it'suce fontaine or something bruce fontaine yeah is it bruce or am i saying bruce because bruce almighty it's something fontaine it's something fontaine what on earth i've got to find it out oh let me giggle it jesus fontaine greece oh it's not bruce but it's close vince vince fortay nice same energy yeah big time vince fontaine big american man predator vibe god he really is an old man these days i don't even think he's alive anymore oh he died yeah he definitely was about 50 in that film he was seen as a hot guy no he only died last year oh

really yeah he's dead dead and gone so we don't have to worry about him ranking any of us at a high school dance but he's a nice guy he's a nice guy well it's just nice it's just like yeah we'd love to be chosen everyone just wants to be chosen that's the vibe isn't it okay right so nice guy yeah let's get into that let's talk about nice guys because even just then i want to pick up with the fact that i said we should have been going for eugene joking that we obviously should not be but it's like actually why he'd probably be just as fucking bad but i've been nice so you deserve to do this if not worse so much worse so much worse because there's an entitlement of but i'm a nice boy you owe me i'm different i'm not like danny zuko

who's gonna fuck you on a beach and then pretend he doesn't know you at school yeah it's i'm not like that i'm i'm gonna fuck you in my single bed and then pretend i don't know you at school exactly so it's like actually we shouldn't be going for any of these fuckers. I'm the same as him, just less hot and more annoying. Just way worse. I'm literally the same as the hot bad guys. Just not hot, not attractive, a bit funnier maybe, and a bit meaner. And a bit angry.

Very angry. Almost angry that they haven't got, that girls aren't interested. It's incel energy. It's the incel vibe. Of like, girls don't want me and i am entitled as a man to vaginas i'm entitled to boobs and the fact that they're not paying me any attention means that i will just go and go out and get them at any means possible and i'll play the nice card but actually i'm a rapist the problem with us having this conversation on a podcast is with half the things you said i just i have nothing to say back

i'm speechless yeah i'm speechless i'm reduced to nothing i'm reduced to tears honestly which means i have nothing to say back it's just like yeah what she said like fucking get me out of here it's true well maybe we should go through some of the answers here because i mean some of the things you were saying as i said i mean we just had a little wee break before we started because we already talked for like an hour before we start anyway just get the energies aligned um and i was just reading through and it's like yeah i'm fucking i'm gonna cry but fuck off like this shit is cryable like this is unfair also i think we should mention what's going on in the news yeah go on you go can you do it oh for goodness sake uh okay well recently um it's not an isolated incident i'm not going to go into it too much

because we can't we kind of can't reduce this massive topic down to one tragedy yeah because the weight of that tragedy in itself is far more massive than even this whole topic it's a systemic issue it's not personal about the people yeah exactly and also don't want to use yeah well it's just yeah anyway so recently there's been some there's been violence against women and very recently there was um kind of right now basically the pieces of women's bodies are being found of one woman's body are being found in the uk because women get attacked on the streets constantly and there's a lot it's obviously opening up it's just a regurgitation of the discourse that we get kind of every 10 months about women should stay inside

and they should learn not to get raped versus how about don't rape us and like what was she wearing though in the fucking thing that i thought this was so interesting in the fucking there was an article i guess it was like a bbc thing they were saying and she was wearing trainers and she was wearing leggings it's like the fact you had to draw attention to the fact that she was wearing sensible clothing therefore it wasn't her fault it's like okay well what if she was wearing a literal bikini then she deserved it what if she was wearing a thong then she deserved it no you had to literally just to um show you the fact that she's a nice girl this shouldn't have happened to her it's like no any woman should be able to walk down the fucking street and not get attacked by a

policeman yeah it's fucked well let's not even get into the police fuck this i don't want to talk about it so now let's go into how everyone's getting attacked fucking hell we will be like we're gonna put some harry potter things in here somewhere you know yeah yeah energy's good energy's good it's bad it's really bad yeah we're gonna offset the rape culture with some jokes that we're gonna make about a franchise that came from a transphobic author perfect it's just all around good vibes i wanted to start with this one just because it's a really good dm oh and i saved it at 11 11 i can

see in my screenshot oh nice it's a sign i wish for no more rape i wish for safety for all women a girl can dream, honestly. Although now it's never going to come true, yeah. Yeah, it's like, now we know the law of attraction isn't real. So they said, I had my phone stolen and was crying at the bus stop. A man came up to me. Sorry, can we just stop? I wasn't ready emotionally.

I know. What? I haven't even said it yet. Sefi, you said this was a good one to start. All right, okay, go. You just know. No, I think this sums up the themes of this topic because i think also i don't want people to be confused nice guys there are nice guys there are nice guys it's like look we're not discussing this we're not discussing not all men we're not discussing decent people obviously

well we're also discussing the fact that it is seen as decent to like this isn't this is a normalized behavior this is allowed like men behave like this and still get called nice and still get rewarded so these are kind of the men you're looking at these are the everyday people that are behaving like this absolutely yeah but they're not decent people no we're not talking about actually nice people but i also don't want to make it sound like there are just some villains in society it's like no no oh no you're the boy you're talking to have you seen what he's like yeah like this isn't just like a minority no this is a huge amount of the population that are allowed to behave like

this go on i had my phone stolen and was crying at the bus stop that's the thing i don't like her phone's been stolen i hate that yeah it's suddenly like you're alone where's her fucking phone give me her fucking phone right fucking now pissing me off well i don't think he stole it well whoever fucking stole it i want it back on her person by the end of today thank you well it gets a lot worse it gets a lot worse i can't go on go on when we can do this so i had my phone stolen was crying at the bus stop a man came up sorry sorry no we're not stopping again at the bus stop she's crying at the bus stop i i'm being dead fucking serious this is this is awful we're not even at the half of it jesus go on go on i had my phone stolen i was crying at the bus stop and a

man came up to me and was being quote unquote nice he got the same bus as me and basically trapped me in my seat and said that i owed him a kiss because he had been so nice to me i said no but he forced himself on me trauma on trauma and then a shrug emoji and it's so true shrug emoji are we not fucking used to this it's so sad i don't want shrugs i want hugs i don't want shrugs i want hugs you come here right now baby come here i'm wrapping my arms around you i'll never let you go what the hell do you not relate it's like sorry what well i'll never go outside again i'm never going outside again they're right yeah lock the fucking doors yeah bubble wrap me up put me under the bed with my fucking sims and my doritos delivery till i die i will not be going to the shops and call it a day

yeah because it's like nowhere's fucking safe like the bus stop it's like yeah okay that that should be a harmless place you're literally waiting for a bus nope nope broad daylight yeah what was she wearing oh turns out a jumper and fucking jeans yeah no well the problem is as we're saying that this man who is owed a kiss for some reason because he was not harassing someone for a 20 minute bus ride apparently that means you deserve a kiss okay the problem is i think for a long time that man has been this hypothetical figure of psychopath this hypothetical figure of evil or yeah a hypothetical figure of an anomaly of man whereas actually he works in big tesco and he served me last night actually he is at the petrol station when I'm filling up my

car he's giving me the side eye kind of funny and i try and leave before he gets to me he's your friend he's my fucking mate at the pub this is the thing i think we have this myth that it's like the people that rape you the people that attack you are this stranger hiding in the bushes that's gonna attack you and it's like one percent of psychopath men he's a weird guy no no the messages we're getting we know it's there's some statistic i don't know it it's most likely going to be someone you know it's most likely going to be your fucking mate it's most likely going to be your teacher a man in a position of power that has power over you in your life you

already know this man there are the minute cases where it's like okay this man jumped out of the bush and attacked you no realistically it's going to be mate of a mate of a mate at a party it's your ex-boyfriend who you went to the police about four times and they didn't do anything and now you're dead yeah because we don't you're dead because people don't believe women is that what we're doing and it's kind of um how many times have you seen people commenting on um the villain or people commenting on an abuser or a murderer or a quote-unquote psychopath and they say i never never days are great guys i never would have saw that never ever never was like

that to me on they're on the news saying he's always been so nice playing with my kids really friendly guys yes because they are among us it's not like a coincidence that just like oh on the off occasion it's your man sneaks into society. It's all of us. This is why it's like, yeah, it's important for women to be saying this. It's the classic thing. Every woman knows someone that's been attacked, someone that's been raped, someone that's been abused, someone's been harassed.

Everyone's been harassed. But no men know these men because they are them. Their mates are them. It's normal behavior. And they also can't, they wouldn't even know that it is them. And they wouldn't even know that it is their mates are them it's normal behavior but and they also can't they they wouldn't even know that it is them and they wouldn't even know that it is their mates yeah because the behavior has been so normalized that they don't realize that that behavior is a problem or a bad thing it's not some dirty little secret they're all like right let's club together and hide this from the women

no it's not like that it's just casual fucking behavior it's locker room banter it's rape jokes it's all of the things it's cat calling it's jim carrey walking down the street with the power of god to lift up a person's skirt and her running away going screaming she's screaming pulling down her skirt and i'm supposed to laugh as like a six-year-old girl that doesn't go away and we don't watch that film and think oh jim carrey's character in that film was just just sexually harassed somebody sort of an abuser yeah he sexually harassed someone we genuinely think god i want to be jennifer aniston with the big boobs that he just created on me yeah i want that sick don't make me sick

the rank don't make me sick but we do we watch that and we're supposed to place ourselves there i want to kiss jim carrey under the giant moon that he kind of pulls down and kind of fucks up the tide and have giant tits no no that's the one word for the pod isn't it no no you could end it there but also if i said no you wouldn't believe me that's the thing yeah seems to mean nothing anyway this is the thing that guts me to my core though because it's like yeah i know you listening if you're a decent person agree with us you know you've experienced this this has been like literally your life experience but i just fucking know we're in such an echo chamber and when i leave this podcast when i leave my circles of people that i like and i go and engage with people and i see it i see that people don't

believe this and people don't recognize this and it's so easy to dismiss and do you have the energy to because i feel like i'm at a point now where i'm like i don't really know if i can try to convince you and i don't think it's my job to but not even that it's just kind of like i don't know if i can take you laughing in my face when i'm being dead fucking serious that i i'm actually gonna cry do it she's she's gone i'm in shock why am i crying because it's fucking literally gutting she's gone actually wait i'm gonna be sick god really it's just it's just annoying um god like properly reduced to tears i'm like starting a fundraiser to get that guy's phone back let me actually find something that i saved but wait wait wait i think it's no no i actually think it's important i'm kind of glad

it's been you not me i bet you are um yeah okay so i i found this i didn't i didn't found it and go looking for it but i saw this earlier it's a tweet from from a woman and it and it's she's put it on her instagram so she's reusing the i like that content she's making most of her content cross-platform nice stunning she says i think it's safe to say that many women are currently experiencing the stress response and are in fight flight or freeze mode i'm currently in freeze can't say anything about the news can't form a coherent sentence i feel you fiona i feel you relatable just processing it's okay if you're feeling that too and the caption of that post so that was a tweet that she put on instagram and the caption

of that instagram post is we're tired but and i know i'm gonna i'm bringing up a whole different topic now but it does really to me emphasize that like as awful as this is it is awful obviously and i'm sure fiona's great i can and i completely agree with her i think when fiona as a white woman i'm not gonna stop saying fiona because it's not about her but when a white woman says i'm tired i'm exhausted this is really really hard we listen more than we do when all of the black women in june may of last year whatever were coming out saying i'm fucking knackered and i don't want to talk about this anymore and like i can't teach you and why should i but it's like but i don't know because it's knackering it's absolutely knackering and you should have there should be no need one to

go through it and then also to have to explain to people why it's traumatic to go through it and then have them say nah i actually don't think that it's like that. Back to your face. Wing's gone. What's wrong with me? Because it's upsetting. Also, it's fucking upsetting. I think it's also, it's like, what? So Women's Day, literally, what, three days ago?

Big fat Women's Day, that was. So the celebration for women is we're going to chop them up and sprinkle parts of their bodies all over the UK? Don't. Don't question mark. Am I allowed to say that? It's probably a bit too dark. No, I think we fucking say it. Look, it's fucking happening it's it's disgusting it's just it's a horrible life horrible life horrible life to be honest yeah it's a horrible life it's a wonderful life we remake it it's a horrible life you know when i was born the song wonderful life by black

was playing i don't know that song it's a really really good song and i kind of it kind of makes me feel like a prophet it's kind of like am i a gift from god oh i know you are yeah no you're gonna click your fingers and make women's skirts blow up yeah if you don't know that song you should well it's kind of it's kind of like you're not gonna listen to it in your in your passing day but it's a really good song to be born to because it's very much like yeah true it's a wonderful life wow i really love it anyway yeah so i'm crying over here apparently because i'm like really sad about women or something i don't know i don't know i don't know what this is but it's true fiona can't form a coherent sentence neither can i should we pause and come back

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I think what's getting me is the frustration of like, and why I bring up Black Lives Matter and things like that, because it's really unfortunate that this is how these things are sustained because we're fucking knackered like this is this is how these things carry on is because how do you change the status quo when you're just trying to live a life do you know what i mean yeah you're literally trying to just feed your kids do loads of other things do your job blah blah blah exactly yes i'm actually really busy yeah yeah and it's like actually in the moments between you you've come back from work you're having an argument with your boyfriend blah blah in the moments of you getting on the bus in those moments where you're

just transitioning from one part of your life to the next part of your life to do your work do your job to get through this fucking wonderful life quote unquote apparently we actually in those moments it's like oh fuck i've lost my phone oh and now i have a man trying to kiss me no i think it's really frustrating too because it it's frustrating in itself just in the sense of this is awful what's happening to women and at the moment in the uk over the past kind of 72 hours and probably for the next couple days there's a bit of a buzz around this conversation but i think it's frustrating on another level, on another level, on another level,

that it's just really, really, I think, so epitomises all of the Black Lives Matter stuff. But it's just really interesting, for lack of a better word, to see the difference in treatment or the difference in how we report things or the difference in social messaging about it. It's kind of like kind of like look i'm not calling fiona out i literally don't know who this woman is but it's like fiona did you say anything in june 2020 were you tired then as

well i'm sure this woman's great love her absolutely love her i'm sure she's absolutely amazing but i'm sure she did say something but that it's just kind of that thing of like oh now we get it now we know what it's like to be exhausted now you actually feel it because you can see yourself in it and it's a direct threat to you yeah and I think it just there's so many people have have a real problem with empathy like that yeah it's not a behavior they can it's not something they have and I'm sure Fiona absolutely does have it and it's really unfortunate that she's become the poster child of like evil to me not the case at all but just

kind of using that as an example of like and now we get it and i'm sure she always got it but but there are lots of other people who didn't get it at the time and now they want to suddenly be so upset i don't know what i'm going on about i don't know well it's kind of people this is also the whole problem with not all men and also white women kind of not believing the black lives matter thing and not actually taking any stance on it because it's really easy to not feel engaged until they're knocking on your front door and it's like oh okay so we we see what's going on there so really we all need to fucking band together and and do something about this rather than waiting till it directly affects us because how on earth then can white women

expect men to do anything when they did nothing for the black people that were being fucking killed well when they're further perpetuating they would rather have the black woman take the brunt of it too yeah it's not that they they don't know how to it. It's that they want it to still be that way. Yeah, literally. Yeah, because it diverts it, but it doesn't divert. It's kind of give them a common enemy. Exactly, yeah. It doesn't divert. It doesn't do anything.

And why would you want that? But it's hard. So I was having a conversation with my friend the other day and she was saying, she was like, oh, and I would cross, there was loads of, there was like a group of boys or whatever and I would cross the street or whatever. And I was like, oh, well, probably also because they're black.

And she was like, no, no. Oh, my God. No, it's just because when I was walking there, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, look, you can deny the racial. You can say that I'm making everything about race, but I'm not making everything about race. Everything is about race. And the sooner you actually discuss it and see your own behaviours in it, then you change it rather than being like, no, no, no, I don't see race or whatever. It's like, well, look, we're never going to solve anything.

It's kind of the sooner, like, by going, yeah, women are equal, blah, blah, blah. It's like, yeah, equal in lots of ways, but there is so much more to be done. And if you want to sit around saying, pick me, pick me, men don't lie, men are nice. We're only getting further away. It's kind of like, well, that's your your daughter who's gonna bear the brunt of it if you think you if you could think you can take it for yourself you've decided that that you're okay to be treated like that okay well then what if it's another woman that you care about what if it's your child sorry i'm really i don't know what's going on no it's fucking depressing is this the prime content everyone wanted because

fucking hope so what are you doing to me honestly opening podcast oh nice guys got the word nice in it'd probably be quite interesting it'd be nice yeah it'd be a nice episode no no no boy were you wrong no no no okay we're talking about rape we're talking about white supremacy should we talk about friend zoning yeah okay let's work friend zoning whatever that is so i put this on the story actually in terms of friend zoning we did all of the tap tap tap threes then we put up a tweet that said you think getting friend zoned is bad imagine your creepy male friend thinking you owe them sex i think that just fucking sums it up friend zoning is in like if you are angry about being friend zoned you feel entitled to sex you feel entitled to be viewed as a romantic interest why absolutely i

don't know what gave you that impression he's literally taking notes next to you you're you're crying your heart out and he's taking notes saying right that's 35 minutes of tears so that gives me approximately seven minutes of sex that gives me i think i'm entitled to a hand job he's taking fucking notes on you okay well actually i bought you dinner that time so i think that will be a kiss and a little blow job literally no no you little cunt you fucking freak i also think it's the kind of for for a boy kind of being associated with a hot girl as i know you all are listening and boy don't we know it because we know because we look and we've said it before we know because we look at your fucking pictures mate are you We eye you out like nobody's business. Yeah.

Kind of being able to publicly align yourself with a hot girl. An honour. For a boy, especially one that's, if he's known as a nice boy. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, he's sound, he's sound. It's like, yeah, because he's a fucking loser, probably. Yeah.

He's got nothing going for him. You're the best thing that's ever happened to him and you don't really like him that much. And he's trying to fuck you. But women are magical. Oh, don't we fucking know it. Do you know what I i mean there is a power of a woman oh for sure there's not a power it's the power like i just honestly think it's there's nothing more stunning to be it's the power it's the only power the power of life the power yeah the secret by ron de bern jim carrey's quick have you ever friend zoned someone i friend zone people

constantly i feel i think but i don't view it as friend zone because that you were in no other zone no but have you got a story there is no other zone for you yeah you entered my life as a friend you're lucky you made it this far and unless you are one of the very lucky people you remain in the friend zone it's not even a zone it's the only area you will ever know from me have you had anyone a friend that went sour at night i had a friend that went down let me think you know when it's like oh you don't that fit anyway kind of like they cackle you and then you walk off and then it's like oh didn't even want you anyway you think you're too good for me it's like yeah i'm way too good for you like jesus glad somebody said it elephant in the room i am way above your ranks thank you very much you said it not me you took the words out of my mouth i can't think of

the any that went sour in the way that's like there's an anger but i definitely um oh my god you just fucking know it when a friend is pushing things with you yeah you feel you just know it you feel obliged yeah yeah It's the coercion to appease a little kind of smelly willy. I just think it's like a lot of the case a lot of the times you know you can be really good friends with someone but I know that if I was to try it with you you'd go for it and that makes me uncomfortable because I wouldn't. I don't find these people attractive most of the time or I would kind of go for it yeah but it's like i know that if i were to make a move you would go and that is not that doesn't feel absolutely like a like a

friendship should because i know that if i were to make a move on you it would be a hard no exactly should be yeah absolutely yeah and what if that's the dynamic you've set up that's the thing is um it's kind of it makes the relationship very transactional in the sense that it's typically with a strong friendship like ours i would say i'm sure i speak for both of us when i say the friendship resounds it does resound heavily when i say that it's very everything is reciprocated and it's very mutual and it's kind of the consent is mutual. We're not having sex, but like. Despite what kind of everyone seems to think. Yes, everyone.

It's kind of, we're, we're Swing. What's Swing? That's our name. It's kind of, we're, what are they called? Larry, Larry Stylinson. Ooh, love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know that?

You know the Larry? Yeah, I went down a big TikTok hole of it yeah do you know that you know the larry yeah i went down a big tiktok hole of it i can imagine you getting quite into it i was for about 40 minutes i was big time into it you're kind of emailing modest management saying how dare you they were young homosexual men and you ruined their life honestly i do think i do think something was going on there there was also a thing about some girls in fifth harmony that i went down a tiktok hole of that they were potentially there was maybe a thing going on there. There was also a thing about some girls in Fifth Harmony that I went down a TikTok hole of that they were potentially, there was maybe a thing going on there.

Was it Camilla? Camilla and one of the other ones. Lauren. Lauren, yeah, that rings a bell. And there were some like little clips of them looking at each other's side eyes during an interview. And I got very into that for about 50 minutes

and then forgot all about it. All of five minutes, yeah, yeah. As you do on TikTok. And then the TikTok algorithm gave you something new, yeah. Have you ever friend zoned someone and then the tiktok algorithm gave you something new yeah have you ever friend zoned someone and had it go sour my whole life yeah it's just isn't that just having male friends yeah a bit and also um i also feel like it's that it's funny you know what it kind of so it made me think of this one incident actually on my first ever night of university like my first ever night on campus nice it's funny that you were

there too were you there on the first day that was our first day but didn't know you yet first day first move-in day no i just hadn't met you yet that's what we said the other day michael buble michael buble is the third person in our friendship um my first night of uni i obviously went out and then came back and my flatmate at the time was a fucking well whatever I'm sure he's a really nice guy but I came back I'd obviously been out whatever he had been out too I actually think we went out like in the same we're at the same place or whatever blah blah blah and I came back I don't know like 10 minutes before him first night of university first fucking night like not first night of like school not first night of class like first night of like moving in of turning up yeah

so you know what it is it's big being polite to everyone you meet which only emphasizes the balming the ego of every man you encounter and you've got a big smile on your face when you talk to anyone yeah hi hi it's like big acting times it really was big performance so men are like god she's keen on me well yeah he's like jesus um basically what happened was i was in my room like 10 i got back like 10 minutes before and i heard him get in to the flat and then i hear like a load of scrambling about or whatever and then i hear he's like fucking hell you're like jesus this guy gee here we fucking go men are trash hey ultimate scrap he knock knock knock on my door knock on your door already weird knock on my

door like i've gone out i've got under i've like taken like it's like i'm it's bedtime vibes i've just met you get off my door i'm snuggled like thinking i'm not gonna see my boyfriend but for a whole term like i'm kind of heartbroken not really i was having a weird time but i'm ready for a good night's sleep to say the least yeah knock knock knock on my door and i let him in obviously he's like i can't get into my i can't get into my room like the key is like fucked whatever i was like fucking hell i'm not keen on this story already so i come out trot along the hallway yeah it's not going well is it no i open the door basically first try i'm a fucking genius obviously and he doesn't go in oh jesus he follows me back to my room i'm like fuck i don't know this fucking guy so i am like in my room was this the weird guy that used to steal your soul yes and

like emptied out all your things oh my god i came back from fucking christmas break one time i all i wanted was a tea it was at 11 p.m at night like i'd been driving for like two hours all i wanted was a fucking tea and he'd used all my sugar so i thought and i replaced it with salt oh he'd replaced it with salt that was the weird thing i replaced it with salt to catch him what do you mean you've you filled out wait you're the weird one in that no no you were kind of running a prank patrol barney and the ninjas too well i fucking hated his guts you'll hear why in a minute but basically he was using my sugar and i had my sugar decanted into this beautiful glass jar no he'd use every last scrap of my sugar fucking hell every glass grain so i thought your tea's gonna be salty tomorrow you know why

because i'm dumping a fucking big bag of salt into this jar the next time you make your tea good luck to you anyway good luck to you my friend also he just wanted a tea anyway anyway flashback he's at the door i just wanted a fucking tea yeah flashback first night of uni he comes into my room and he makes himself right at home, obviously, because he's entitled to a young woman's space, as he should be. Dot, dot, dot. And I was just kind of stood. I was like, yeah, like, let's kind of wrap this up.

He was like, oh, like, you know, we're going to just sit here and talk all night. It's like, Jesus, I really couldn't. I really, really couldn't do that. That makes one of us. Basically, he ended up saying things like, you know, if you didn't have a boyfriend, 100% we'd be having sex. That is disgusting.

It's like, do you really think so? Also, I met this guy later at a party. Again, I don't think I knew you yet, but it just turned out I knew this guy. Can you imagine me having sex with him? I honestly couldn't imagine anyone having sex with him. If pigs could fucking fly he's having sex when pigs fly literally what the fuck was he thinking until then

i'm not joking he's absolutely raping people every sexual encounter he has i can confidently say is sexual assault because that person has no idea of consent has no idea of um a woman's boundaries for example anyway basically he was just in my bedroom all fucking night wouldn't leave i literally thought am i getting raped tonight multiple times it kind of puts a sting on the first day in the flat vibes it kind of kind of kills the vibe it's like oh i've just arrived i'm starting my new vibe here oh i see what's going on same old shit same old shit but now i live with them and also what i really don't like about that story is that i didn't tell my boyfriend i get it because you

don't want to scare him so i'm fine i didn't want to put the fear of fucking god in him i'm living with a rapist it's like i'm living with someone who has literally said if you didn't exist he would he would be even more all over me than he is now. Jesus. Also, it's quite scary that he's so sure. It's like that you have no part in that. But also, he wouldn't leave my room. It's very hard to get someone out of your room politely.

It's very hard when also you're trying so hard to make people like you. Yeah, yeah. So actually, I really just, I just want to be safe in my bed. There was not a night in that flat that i didn't lock my door oh my god and i remember one time i didn't lock my door i had a nap in the day god first year of uni vibes it was sweet i had a nap in the day so nice what a luxury life and i it was obviously such a i was in such a like light sleep in this nap that i had a dream that i'd obviously take a note of the fact that i

hadn't locked my door and i was sleeping and i had a dream that all the boys in my blog came in and were like kind of yeah it's awful but he would always say things to me like you're you know don't worry like i told all them boys like you're taken so like they they got it because they were all asking it it's like you know so you owe me i remember he said and i thought i don't fucking owe you oh you shit oh god also knowing this boy yeah and I thought, I don't fucking owe you. Oh, you shit. Oh God. Also knowing this boy. Yeah. I was just about to say,

it's unfortunate that you don't know who I'm talking about, but anyway. Oh, it's embarrassing. It is embarrassing. And scarring. There's something about, um,

that moment when you're in, in a room with a boy, a man, and you think, oh fuck. Okay. I see what's going on here. Cause I remember having that,

um, in a tent with a boy once and realizing oh shit i see what's going on here and it was me and my friend and it was a boy kind of from like two years above it was at a party and people were camping how old are you um i was like 14 i think um and he must have been like 16 17 maybe i was 15 i don't know and we were in a tent and he was like oh i've got to show you something in the tent i've got to show you something and you're as a little 14 year old you kind of know what's going on but it's also like boy from the year above might want to like i don't know i'm hanging out with him you're still trying to be polite the most important thing you have is not your safety it's being nice i had no interest in getting with this guy i had

no interest in any of that but it's like oh i wouldn't mind being kind of chosen talk to by a year boy in the year above yeah exactly so i went into this tent with him and it's just kind of like it's that moment of realization where you're like oh he's zipped up the tent yeah oh okay i'm in here alone okay he's a lot bigger than me okay i need to get out of this and how does that happen and i need to do it without bruising his ego in any way or if this is fucking gonna get fucked yeah so i need to i need to get out in the safest and almost polite way to impossible and then you've got the whole thing is kind of like am i making this all up my head and then it's fine and then you see him later at the party and

it's like oh it's fine then you're also like probably nothing's happened like you gaslight yourself yeah like you know society would gaslight you yeah that nothing was happening and that he was just wanted to chat with you in a in a dark tent in a dark corner it's like don't be ridiculous no you fucking didn't you wanted to rape me yeah jesus fucking hell but this is the thing we all have and that isn't just even one percent of the stories i could tell you right now that's just one encounter and that's what i was about to say look we could go back and forth with stories all day, which just shows. That's not even one I would even really consciously remember until you say that thing about trying to leave. And it's like-

No, it's not even notable. Actually, they're not standout experiences. I actually, speaking of that, someone DM'd, this was actually a while ago, but it's a DM that stayed with me. They were saying that they're talking about catcalling. They just found our catcalling episode and they were talking about that.

And she was saying like, have you guys got catcalled and i realized that i'd been catcalled twice already that day twice i went for a walk in the morning and i'd been catcalled twice yeah i was not wearing a sexy little outfit middle of winter and if i was still not acceptable but it's like no these experiences just brush off you like fucking water it's not like each one is so standout well that's the problem they don't brush off you they go in they it's almost they don't brush off you like water they soak you yeah drenched but you but they're so normal you forget that they're inside you you don't almost remember the specific incidences just becomes a part of you you remember the feeling that they give you and you just absorb that and carry that around in

your life so now you're looking over your shoulder 24 7 yeah jesus all i said was have you ever friend zoned anyone fucking hell jesus is this a good uplift obviously goes without saying doesn't it i don't know what this podcast is it's like and this week we're sponsored by it's like no one's sponsoring this no one literally brands are running a mile i really like this message someone said um about like nice boys apparently the myth of nice boys where are they i don't see them um they said they're nice until their niceness doesn't get them what they want i.e sex or your attention and it's so true kind of that their niceness is just like a weapon of exchange for whatever they

are the transaction they desire yeah get from you but i was thinking do we have any like like what's the kind of like a red flag what's the kind of sign that it's like beware if if it's this kind of do you know what i mean i think it's go on watch how they treat women they don't fancy oh because i always think that with a guy when they're being so nice to me okay well i'm gonna look at see how you treat women you don't fancy yeah i'm gonna have a look at how you're treating the sort of the older women the younger women the women that are not societally meet the mold of what is attractive i'm gonna watch how you fucking treat them because then it's like that's how you treat me then no fuck it you don't you don't get to

yeah only be nice to i'm every woman it's all in me yeah you don't you don't get to treat it's just it's just like okay so you're only treating me like this because you want to have sex with me got it so you're not nice so you're not nice to me what about you um i kind of think it's um it's kind of love bombing yeah it's very hard for people to not fall into someone saying oh my god like you're the most beautiful woman if 70 of your conversations are about how much they love speaking to you and only 30 of the conversation is actual substance yeah yeah that i don't actually think they love speaking to you i don't actually think they have any connection to you i don't actually think there's anything that isn't vapid there i think they're telling you exactly what they have learned that they think you want to hear in order to get something from you completely it's kind of i've i've never had this connection

with anyone yeah shut the fuck up you think she's fucking stupid well kind of um you're so beautiful you're the most beautiful like all of this shit it's like yawn i'm yawning yawn yeah tell me something i don't know cunt literally no you and whose army is that you've got an agenda here you've got an agenda yeah i think there are so many red flags when you actually break it down it's like so many of the behaviors that we even not even accept but romanticize are actually just um like systemic abuse and harassment coming back to us through a new form maybe it's not even learning the red flags is the issue at this point i almost think it's that all of us deep down it's not that we don't we can't spot it it's that we spot it and then do

nothing about it it's like we spot it and then continue to bomb their ego we spot it and then continue to go along with whatever they say because it's very hard not to but this is kind of what i was crying earlier of like i i don't i don't really the way out of this seems very very challenging yeah i don't see it personally because it's a lot to ask of people to try and reason with like murderers it's very hard it's a lot to ask and also when you've been allowed to operate in a world so easily that oh you fancy that girl just go and get it then just go and take her it's literally just everyone just is ripe for the picking from you yeah and if she's not interested she's gay or she's frigid or she's fucking ugly anyway she's butters she's got a boyfriend she's already

under the of another man she's already under the ownership of another man therefore you cannot have her kind of that what is that classic thing they respect another man's like authority over you more than they respect your ability to say no yeah it's fucking true it is true i think when you've been operating in the world with that level of ease and entitlement for someone challenging that and saying oh no you you actually fucking can't laugh at a rape joke it's not oh it's edgy humor no you actually can't fucking laugh like that's not funny it's not funny well it's almost if you're laughing are you also i also if you are laughing because you know that rape is wrong are you acting like rape is wrong every day in your life what are you doing to fight the court

the cause of against the rapist what are you doing then yeah like because if it's not outweighed and who you are do you know what i mean it's very easy to be like i'm i'm laughing because it's just funny doesn't mean like i actually support it it's like but if i examine your life you do support rape you do nothing to protect women and educate men because most of us are brought up to support rape it's not an accident it's very very much intentional so what what do you do to what makes this feel better to you i actually could fucking cry too it's an absolute fucking joke i think what makes it better for me is kind of no matter what i know there's something there's something it's the magic thing it's like there is something magical about about woman yeah as a concept so yeah of

course there is and just like on a really really micro level like no kind of systemic change like nothing happens from that it's just my innate knowing of i can operate within the world of all of the strength of every woman behind me because whether they want to admit it or not we are all unified in these experiences like whether you want to scream pick me pick me no men are men are great of course men are great but if you want to scream pick me pick me whether you want to admit it or not we are all unified in this experience injustice literally injustice just the idea that women we all experience the idea of you're walking down the fucking street and there's tap tap tap feet behind you and you're fucking terrified i always think this with when i'll be walking down

a street like late at night and there'll be a guy walking really close behind me and he'll just walk straight past like he'll overtake me or whatever. And it's like, you should be educated in the fact that that's a scary thing to do. Whether you had no intentions of harming me in any way, you should know as a man that you should be operating the streets with some caution. Yeah. Do you know that I'm on edge right now? Yeah.

Do you know what that experience would be like for someone who has been trained their entire life to fear rape because it's something that we literally only have to look outside that you can decide to do yeah yeah you can decide to do to me in a second the only thing that's stopping you from doing it is your if you if you're going to decide to do it or not even if it's not like okay all women know that fear everyone of any gender knows male violence literally it's not even that women have fear is that everyone knows men have violence everyone can understand that in some way even if it's not you if even if it's you're a man and it's not you as the man you know another man you know you know that men operate with the upper hand and if you can't intellectualize that you you need to get out more you need to maybe do a bit of research i don't know something you just need to not living

in beautiful blissful ignorance how do we get out of this one then are we done how do we get out or we keep going i think maybe we should do something fun like a kind of is there a fun one we can find should we go roller skating i would you know you know, I'd fucking love to. I've been skating. That's kind of a kind of series that we're going to do. You teach me to skate. Oh, I'd love that. Could that be our video series?

We've been trying to work one out. Yeah. Okay, let me find. Because the ones that I've got, it's just. Yeah, the ones I've got are dark as well. It's dark, but it's all dark. Because the topic is dark. It's like we ask them for dark things and they give us dark things. we're like oh this is too sad oh it's a bit dark literally so this

person said a guy said he was really nice and i said you shouldn't tell people that point blank kiss yeah you okay yeah let's talk about guys calling themselves nice yeah and not even just anyone it's like if you you don't have to say it you can just do it you can just be it doesn't have to be a disclaimer doesn't have to speak louder than words mate you're not heard that saying it's like i'm so nice whilst they're getting their dick out are you so nice oh okay sure why are you so nice why have you made me a cup of tea oh it's oh okay i see you're unzipping your pants i see i see the bar is so low the bar is in hell it's literally fucking subterranean bar these days yeah the bar is six feet under um okay i've got a couple of messages to read just because

i couldn't choose this one just quickly touch on i thought it was quite funny all they seem to do is make you feel bad about not wanting to sleep with them it's like are you surprised that i don't want to have sex with you like who is horny here this place is disgusting like who on earth would want to do that well that's the thing with that weird guy and horny here this place is disgusting like who on earth would want to do that well that's the thing with that weird guy and you're in your uni room being like if you don't have a boyfriend we'd be having sex it's like oh in your reality sure but in my reality a weird boy's just walked in and you're a fucking freak yeah like in no way are we having sex well also because he's kind of he's wankinganking to rape every night because the porn that he watches is not ethically made, is not someone who volunteered to be there probably.

No, we can't go in here. Open a can of West. We're trying to get us out of the hole. We're trying to bring this up at the end. I thought this message, I just thought it was a fucking joke, to be honest. So they said, this guy was really, quote unquote, sweet, sweet, had deep chats about mental health, etc. And a week later later he asked me if i had a dick phobia because i wouldn't sleep with him a dick phobia is that yeah i do have

dick phobia you make me ill i actually come up in a rash whenever i'm around you so maybe it's best for both of us if i don't see you again i have a phobia of your dick you should stay away six feet away thank you oh yeah no thank you free free it's kind of free free it's kind of lily and lily and snake that's nice it's it's how they freak yeah lily and snake yeah yes okay well it's just a disgusting world isn't it well i'm gonna have to leave you here unfortunately here is where we drop you off i guess you're looking back like is this it please don't make me go out there it's like yeah sorry you're gonna have to take these headphones out and face the real world so please Here is where we drop you off, I guess. You're looking back like, is this it? Please don't make me go out there. It's like, yeah, sorry. You're going to have to take these headphones out and face the real world.

It's like, please, just one little more joke. Please don't make me. Just something funny to leave us on. It's like, we can't muster it up. We can't. We can't do it today. Got nothing left to give. I've got nothing left.

Because we're just terrified like you are. We're just angry like you are. We just want to see some kind of fucking change yeah it would be nice it would be fucking great all i want for christmas is just a tiny little bit of a change in rape culture yeah yeah to be honest i want for christmas a bit of comfort in feeling like conversations can be had because at the moment i'm normally the first to have a conversation as well i'm quite the persuader like i'm kind of a bit of a lawyer like i'm kind of like ready to argue yeah with people like it and have a very healthy academic debate you're really good with that you you manage to

keep the emotion out of it at certain points that you're good but i've really lost that well because i kind of my emotion is so invested that it's more powerful to convince them and kind of win them over but at the moment i just i think i said in the other episode it's like i'm just signing out actually like of all things i just like but i i would love for christmas one thing please mr santa claus kind of feeling like people aren't laughing in your face and like making a joke out of something that is obviously very very real and i guarantee you the minute they have a daughter they'll understand that actually women do have worth can i actually just quickly say one more thing sorry this really fucking pissed me off i saw this guy recently who i don't i don't know him

really at all but i do know that he has a kid i believe he might he might have a girl but he at least has a at least his kid has a mother i know that much so there is at least one girl who's slept with him um and i'm sure he has a mum too this guy like tweeted saying oh i can't even like have a you know i don't even want to have another kid because if it's a girl like it's just you know you can't bring girls into this world because not even like because it's them but it's just like so many wrong ends out in the world blah blah blah cut to i don't know how long ago this was because my sense of time is vapid now but the same guy tweeted a porn tournament fuck off as in he tweeted a poll you know you can do polls on twitter he tweeted like

okay category one like milf fucking ebony lesbian blah blah blah did all of these little rankings and had all of his mates come and vote like 200 retweets or something on this porn tournament a few months later then he wants to tweet you can't bring a girl into this world because it's so disgusting who are you wanking over who who are it's madonna whore do women only have value when they are your daughter i I guarantee you who you're wanking over has, she is a daughter herself. And that doesn't, she doesn't have to be someone's daughter

just to have value, just to be safe. She doesn't have to have a relation to a man. To you. Oh, I can now picture her as my daughter. No, it's not about you. It's not about you. So now I understand she's a human being. Fucking hell.

How void of all. Humanity. Intell human being fucking hell how void of all humanity intellect even not even void of emotion you can't you actually can't understand that you're so fucking dumb not only are you fucking disgusting but you're dumb right that's where i'm leaving it you can't it's true you cannot comprehend how someone feels unless you what put yourself in their shoes go oh fuck that must feel quite bad yeah it fucking does open your eyes read the news speak to a woman but i also think it's not even that feels quite bad i think it's because they'd be embarrassed if it happened to their daughter it's not that they'd feel upset that their daughter's feelings were her they would feel that they'd failed yeah it's not even that

they fear for the daughter's safety they would feel that they failed in their role they feel like they yeah it's an attack on them suddenly it's ego right it's ego for sure i've had enough i've had enough as well so let's sign out i hope you just know that we genuinely genuinely want you to be okay like please please i really am sending that girl a phone yeah genuinely i wish i could be holding your hand at the bus stop i wish we could be walking around the shops when a man says you're right sexy turn around and go what do you just say to the stunning girl back off please skate away motherfucker i wish we could be with each

and every one of you well that's the kind of thing as we are it kind of is like in those moments obviously down to your distress discretion of safety but you have to feel the power of every other woman who has lived through traumatic experiences too stay safe out there guys we're with you emotionally safe in these streets yeah i'm sending you lots of love and fuck this just honestly fuck this let's end it on a bang fuck this world don't feel quite finished i'm trying to think of something profound to say, yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, what's one thing we can leave them with. Don't feel quite done. What's one thing we can say to solve it all?

Wrap it in a bow, almost. I think it's just kind of, look, you deserve better. And don't trust any motherfucker that calls themselves nice.