Goes Without Saying - gatekeeping feminism: infographic-ed too close to the sun?

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

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The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying, you're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. And this is a lovely episode about Feminism 101, Introduction to Feminism, Instagram Feminism, Infographic Feminism, TikTok Feminism

and the critique that the girls have about the girls. This is a lovely episode if you're in the mood to think a little bit. Hope you enjoy. Oh I'm knackered already. i don't know why i'm a bit scared for this one like i'm excited to record but this one feels like a big one to start with i feel like we need to get this one out of the way in order to speak about literally anything else agreed but i just i think it also to me this conversation kind of the crux of this podcast, I think. Like, we didn't call it Goes Without Saying for nothing. Like, we came to the name Goes Without Saying because there are so many things that, like, if we were going to be thorough, we literally physically would be here for the rest of our lives.

Making sure we hit the note of every key word and explaining every little pocket of and i just can't be bothered it goes without saying like some things between two friends they go without saying it's like i know when you're talking about x y and z that you're also acknowledging the context of a b and c blah blah blah it goes without saying just a little bit of slack for the girls i think also i think it's like there are those kind of remedial feminism podcasts out there we also want to talk about basically one of the reasons why we're doing this podcast this episode first is so we can talk about barbie without talking about all of this in the barbie episode

yeah yeah um but we want to be able to get all of this out in the barbie episode yeah yeah um but we want to be able to get all of this out of the way first because i just get all this feminism nonsense out of the way it will be enjoyable get this one out of the way it will be enjoyable i swear this is just a huge topic in itself it's so big that i feel like we wouldn't even talk about the movie if we didn't talk about all of this all of this and like dedicate a whole hour whatever we're going to do on this but so much there are things that exist for example the barbie movie that that kind of cover the bare bones of things so that then people that aren't necessarily interested in that can have like a look into it and be like it kind of opens the doors to the topic

but also then it allows space for podcasts to not have to or not podcast any kind of media or kind of conversation to not have to address kind of the 101 and maybe do a bit of a 103 104 2.0 would be nice without having to kind of be like oh it's just almost like we all agree here women yeah you'd hope so they're not the scum of the earth they do deserve rights we did we've covered that we know that we know that but do we know that we know that but do we know that no the society does not know that no but that's why i think it's important that we do an episode on it sure i would love to chat and especially about like the tiktok feminist twitter feminism is instagram infographic feminism you know that whole thing i think correct me if i'm stepping on anyone's toes at least for me personally

i think the crux of the conversation around like that's not feminism it's just like watered down like basic like it's not useful whatever blah blah blah it's like that's not feminism it's just like watered down like basic like it's not useful whatever blah blah blah it's like that's not what we need blah blah blah i think a lot of the i think it's sad but a lot of the critique around the feminism 101 thing is not really being upset about feminism 101 i think you're just upset that we still need feminism 101 like you're not angry at the conversations that 101 like you're not angry at the conversations that are happening you're not frustrated at the speech in barbie like you're not frustrated about the girls on tiktok you're frustrated that we still need that well it's not

yeah also it's like i hate to suddenly be going right into barbie but it's like look greta gerwig is not feminist 101 she's like highly educated has done her fucking research she's made plenty of films that are really exploring like quite in-depth themes there's no it's not really like just an accident that she did a film that kind of spells out feminism to the masses using kind of a cultural symbol that everyone's gonna go see the film like it's not she didn't just do that that's not her definitive thoughts of like this is the highest level i can function on and here's my thoughts it's like no this is she's done that on purpose right there's intention behind it i'm going to no i agree we've got a whole episode on barbie

it's coming but i think the i do i think there's such a fair frustration in feeling um almost a bit like jarred or like uncomfortable or like um limited or frustrated i guess with the like really kind of palatable basic conversations on feminism but i think the frustration to me mostly that frustration i think mostly lies in the fact that the feminism conversations exactly the conversations that we needed on feminism are still like 400 years down the line and that's the gutting part like i'm not gutted that girls on tiktok are talking about basic things i'm gutted that girls on TikTok are talking about basic things. I'm gutted that the really like in-depth, challenging, like radical and revolutionary concepts are still probably in a future that I'll never see. Or they're just reserved for a very small pocket of people.

Really. Like they're not going to be implemented in a societal way, like politically. Like people aren't going to be voting with these things in mind well they're not even that's kind of the main thing no definitely i think as well one of my one of my biggest like like frustrations with a pet peeve a little pet peeve on the like hating the feminism 101 train so i'm so i'm not hating on feminism 101 i'm hating on the haters of the feminism 101 situation right yeah yeah yeah still with me yeah i'm on board i'm on board i can't reference i'm still obsessed with them all aboard i know i'm sorry we're obsessed with h3 like

that's not helping it's i'm in a loop like maybe let's just get it out of the way i love him oh i love him we did just speak about him in the last episode do you remember ethan yeah no i know okay i like could i could keep going like if you don't listen to h3 the podcast go on youtube and just type in the letter h number three yeah you're in for a world of fun i think it's it's almost the goes without saying vibe of like it's very um human level to be responding to things to be saying things and then being like oh i've said it wrong sorry is that not the right word or like okay what's the terminology it's incredibly long but i really like the way that he like navigates through lots of shit that he doesn't know about and just allow that but anyway

anyway basically he's he's just great for some reason quite fancies him i think there's no no i will say that loud yeah go on say it loud and loud like definitely there's something about him that i'm really liking at the moment i always thought he was attractive but there's something it is the confidence i think which we've spoken about but like there's something it is the confidence i think your charisma we've spoken about but like there's something very like unapologetic about him exactly exactly which is very um attractive yeah no i get it i get it i love i get it um i'm waiting for him to do something fucked up though oh i mean he's already done 100 times over but yeah um he's great but i think the crux like one of my first frustrations with the idea of like feminism 101 is the like being annoyed at or like a rejection of basic quote

unquote low-level feminism introduction to feminism conversations mostly happening online on social media between girls you usually young women as well definitely my biggest frustration of people critiquing that is that there is an element of i don't know if it's necessarily classism but it's definitely exclusivist i think to kind of um border off it's just quite like we're the intellectuals and you're just the silly little girls and it's a classist thing to me it's not like other girls thing to me it's a definitely it's a not a nice vibe to me personally 100 agree because also if you think about what it's centered around it's centered around reading and education exactly it's really basically talking about how well you are oh i have um read a simone de beauvoir um text and i know the second sex is but it's like you're talking about reading you're talking

about books you're talking about education like of course it comes into class and it definitely comes into um gender just a huge way that basically you it's women hating on women like there's obviously a huge level of content about men hating on the women that are talking about feminism 101 but also it's potentially older or more educated people women being like oh well you don't know about blah blah blah it's like sorry excuse you what are we doing also just because they had a conversation that was 101 doesn't mean they don't know the 504 630 advanced thesis level they're 14 years old they probably don't i mean maybe they don't but just it's almost like it's not always appropriate to bring out a 900 page thesis on something and again this is my other point so i've touched on

it's classist i've touched on like we're not there yet like we still it's like it's the so we've hit it's the wrong time yeah okay sorry that we're not in the future i wish we didn't need feminism 101 but we do we've touched on it's classist it's actually exclusive intellectualism get these it's a snobby vibe for me this is basic as can be it's the tailors all the time of just people wanting to assert their um intellectual dominance over another group of people yeah it happens to be women oh against women what what a coincidence and i think as well what i think you would imagine would go without saying but it unfortunately doesn't is kind of it's a it's a structural issue it's a formatting issue like i'm not gonna sit down

and learn about um judith butler on like a dvd from 2002 i'm not learning about it i mean maybe i am learning about it on tiktok but that isn't where you're getting leading back to the classism stuff the highbrow intellectualism 400 page like read the room read the university read the fucking room stephanie and i used to have this little quote that we made up that we would say to one another and actually we spoke about it a lot the ice cream shop vibe like you're going to get ice cream so for example what actually happened let me tell the full story we were walking home one day i think from the cinema i don't even i actually don't even remember where this was born we're walking down the level or maybe we were going out or like something had happened but it was night time we're walking through the level dangerous place for young

women to be at night time it's terrifying once a firework went off a lot like a sideways firework went shooting down the park it's not ideal terrifying um and sephi was interested in a guy classic which one was this could you just mouth it no actually yeah okay just like oh we're on camera put a cross over your face or something yeah i know which one yeah i had to one it is yeah she gets it was this guy the main he's the star of the show i think of that time 100 star of that season season three of my life he was the guest star main romantic lead he was the guest star he was the celebrity cameo 100 which is quite high praise actually for this little scrap but anyway yeah so if i was interested in this guy and she was talking about tell me to stop at any moment she was saying like oh when we

go to this party like is he gonna be if he do you think if he says this at the party it means this or like basically what would be good as if we were at the party and i said this and then what would happen is this would happen and blah blah and i said why are you treating this party as if it's office hours like you're turning up with an essay it's very uni coded yeah analogy but it's like you're turning up with an essay to grade you're turning up with a full script and saying are you going to follow this script and blah blah it's like no read the room you're at a party like you should be getting ice cream like you should be chilling but you're turning it into an office hours scenario oh my god it's actually so sad it's like i've got highlighted bits like could you just quickly tell me what your analysis of

this is it's like just have fun calm down read the room that's what feminism 101 like anger says to me it's like read the room like obviously conversations on for example a 40 minute podcast are going to be really hopefully quite concise and short and snappy and to the point and they're going to miss out 99.9 of the conversation and that isn't necessarily a flaw it's just a factor in the type of content that you're consuming and it comes with pros that you get a nice little succinct little nugget to start you out on your day and the cons is that you obviously don't get half the context or like tons of the nuance that comes with that conversation but it's just part and parcel it doesn't mean that what you're consuming is useless it just means there's

a time and a place there's definitely a time and place and also like would definitely the definitely oh god definitely the definitely definitely it's like take a breath right the place that you're going to be finding these things isn't on tiktok the place that you're going to be finding um sort of higher brown things isn't lying in your bed no there are spaces that are created people and yeah you're so right they are kind of classist um sexist often racist places their institutions their universities that are like hard to get into so it's obviously creating a barrier between the two people that's like right okay so the girl that is creating a tiktok in her room being like i've just found out about the male gaze

guys we have to talk about this yeah good for her let her live oh i'm just tired why not why do we not can we not i mean go and attack her when actually it's like look it's a whole wider issue like why on earth is the victim of the situation the person that's trying to like has just like trying to bring some new information to someone yeah is that what i mean i don't really know i feel like i'm getting a bit bit lost lost and i don't really know what my points are in this but how could we do you know what i mean like it's almost like i have a lot of room for women to be mediocre on the internet and in the media and in their lives i want women to just be like

all right like yeah they're not amazing they don't have to be like mind-blowing we're not groundbreaking it might be ground shifting every once in a while but for the large part like i don't mind turning up every week and like being a bit sloppy and missing things out and there is a huge element of that that i don't think needs to be confused with a denial of responsibility or a dismissal of privilege like both sephie and i have a huge amount of privilege coming to this podcast and also a huge amount of responsibility to be talking to thousands of women and i think yeah that can still be true whilst we show up every week feeling not so great or making a few mistakes using the wrong

words saying the wrong thing getting in an argument getting upset like oh my god surely surely women hopefully can be valid in all forms and that is incredibly basic to a lot of people in this group right now like that is feminism 101 to a lot of people but it's incredibly necessary right now in a world where that isn't acceptable of women you're not allowed to show up as just who you are and so unfortunately while that seems like it should go without saying it unfortunately doesn't that conversation is still yards and yards away in the future we are still at the point of needing basic introduction to feminism women aren't invalid beings no but also i do feel like we even need that it's not like we're placing ourselves on the side of oh so we are feminist 507 like no 100 no like i can intellectualise the idea. I believe in the...

God, I'm getting so... Right, let me start. I believe that women are equal to men. That is the most base level thought. I believe that. I can... I've read the stuff. I feel like I live it in my life.

Blah, blah, blah. I politically sort of use that in my voting. Blah, blah, blah. Good for you. But I still... i'm insecure i still make dumb moves that don't aren't aligned with that i still get sort of angry and all of the stuff that and i basically live in a lot of ways as if i don't believe that because it is so ingrained it's it doesn't go without saying because it's like look at the behaviors that

we all do then we all have read this stuff supposedly we've listened to the podcast about it blah blah blah but why do we still then perpetuate it day in day out we need it we still catch me what walking through the level does he like me blah blah blah that was a girl i'd i'd fucking read my fucking yeah yeah you were on it she was at university probably i was in third year of university yeah yeah i was about to graduate yeah i was writing my dissertation yeah on this stuff yeah still being like at the party does he like me it's like look there isn't um there isn't a binary between people that have read it and people that haven't because realistically look people don't fucking read these books anymore you can go on fucking j store

read these fucking books that have formed our beliefs that's not what's going on i don't think half the people that claim to understand feminism or having a go at these feminism 101 girls have read these books have fucking done this no they've just like decided that they think that they've kind of watched the right tiktoks and all this stuff look sometimes you don't find the right tiktok sometimes you find yourself in like fucking um i mean enough decent people find themselves in andrew tate hall it doesn't take a many references for example i redownloaded tiktok the other day oh yeah you did because i got a notification on my thing being like have you just logged in from somewhere else and i text savvy being like did you just log in on TikTok?

Because I'm really scared. It was me. And I typed in, this is my first move back on TikTok. I don't know why I wanted to see it. I typed in the word chimpanzee. Okay, fair enough. I thought you were going to say Andrew Tate and I was like shaking my head. Oh God, I'm not trying to get depressed. No, you're trying to be happy.

I typed in chimpanzees. Because I've been thinking recently about them chimpanzees and just like how amazing they are i love things like that just been thinking about like gorillas i bet there's some good content on them too looking cute as god god god i was going through the chimpanzee videos okay so my step in wing algorithm is now gonna be and yeah and i saw some horrible stuff but like chimpanzee attacks kind of gordy's house nope style which i wasn't really looking for i more wanted to see like amazing chimpanzees like eating a little acting like humans sort of thing um but i went off tiktok forgot about the chimpanzees went back on a few

hours later why am i seeing chimpanzee chimpanzee chimpanzee because that's what it thinks you want you had one moment of weakness and we are not gonna let it go it takes one wrong turn you have literally if you spend slightly too long on a bad video that's gonna is kind of the gateway to the badness if you go oh look i saw kind of one of andrew tate's friend of friend of friends talking about something oh i watched for slightly too long before you know it you're in that loop i i do think a lot of the like hating on feminist 101 is just people that have found themselves they've just watched the right stuff they've just watched the right content like it it doesn't make you smarter it's just like you

have you're more online you know kind of the quote-unquote right opinions like someone wrote in being like i don't think we should take anyone's stuff as verbatim like we should be using our own brains we should be thinking for our own for our own selves using our forming our own opinions and i do think a lot of it is about like well i've read this so i have the right opinions it's like no but you don't actually think that you just are quoting someone else that doesn't mean shit it just means you've been on twitter longer than everyone else you've just been you've just found yourself following the right people you just know what will make you perceived as right and cool and yeah kind of um popular in that circle it's like

you don't even fucking know what you're on about well that's the thing as well there's like 101 girl there's because those are her thoughts yeah yeah there's also a huge um like kind of social currency element to it of like capitalizing on what you can quote or like where you can fit in that's what makes me so sick about it that's why i kind of said the word popular which wasn't really on the tip of my tongue but when i think about it it is popularity no it is it's like it's kind of the one of the new things that is considered cool and it's amazing that this is considered cool yeah is like a social awareness which is an amazing thing really for that to be considered cool but then it does leave room for a lot of like parroting

of other people's beliefs and not actually thinking of your own stuff and kind of parodying it like kind of um it's the same vibe to me as people coming in dressed a certain way into their first year seminar when they're on the phone to their dad getting sent like 10 grand to do something just for funsies yeah it's like you're dressed you're just kind of you're just cosplaying something that isn't necessarily yours. You've just hopped off Daddy's Yacht, you've stopped at your local Oxfam

halfway on your way. And you've just put it all on and you've started, you've just started spouting some shit in a feminism lecture. Please. Please. It hurts.

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I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com and then attacking some girl on um tiktok it's like did you not understand

the thing is the whole point of feminism i completely get the i completely get the frustration but i think it is to me it's a frustration of the fact that we still need this conversation like yes we want to be overthrowing governments and killing people but we can't because it's not happening right now we can't even put you hung again we can't even put a film out about barbie without being hounded like we literally look around you the world that you're seeing doesn't have feminism 101 under control like no we have not yet mastered the first level of feminism and so we can't be surprised that we still need it we're not even close we're literally not even close like yeah no it's actually yeah i i think that's a perfect point really it's like if you before we jump to level

10 like let's focus on like the fact that women are dying yeah every day yeah at the hands of men because of like political reasons i think as well there's a frustration or like a kind of it's a perpetuation of the idea that women can't have fun like to be a woman you can't yeah to be a woman you can't be fun you can't be playful you have to be perfect like you can't be sloppy you have to be neat like you can't be human you have to be angelic and ethereal and otherworldly like you're not allowed to have a silly little conversation on your podcast monologue you're doing no no kind of it's america ferrara but like you can't be you can't have a podcast where you just touch on topics that you care about no you have to subvert that and create in-depth literature on it do you know i mean you're not

allowed to be free in it i also think it's that you have to choose it's almost like as a woman you have to choose early on it's like are you going to be political or fun and and both will get hate but one will get dismissed as silly and one will get dismissed as like bitter and hateful so you have to almost make that decision of like you can't be both like if we have potentially chosen um for example i think our podcast gets branded as like feminist very often and it's like really it's just two women talking about things they care about women's rights is a huge thing we care about kind of equality as a whole is a huge thing that we care about so then i think we get branded as like um we talk we cover like serious issues that are like important for women to listen to this is like a women's space

a women's podcast that's very like um political almost but then i also think it's like but if you actually listen to the content of course we have conversations that are like hard-hitting but we also have like i really want there to be that room of like silliness fun ridiculous and like um it's not sustainable to be kind of the an authority figure on anything so i just want it to be that we can just have fun and all this stuff and i do think people have trouble navigating the kind of gap between yeah um what are they are they are they serious or are they silly it's like but they're both because it's you it's a human thing yeah and that's why i think barbie's so great because it

bridges the two really amazingly of like fun watchable um film and also introducing some like real fucking issues like patriarchy to things to people that maybe even deny the idea of patriarchy yeah i think that's completely it is that you can't be more than one thing in the sense that it's a human instinct to put things in boxes but oftentimes it's almost like who would we be to expect the marginalized person to also be the authority on fixing the issue like yeah why is she also not allowed to make a joke every once in a while it's kind of like um like if you're poor you're not allowed to want nice things like it's almost like get back in your box it's like you're yeah like you're um you know kind of when people are like oh i'm not gonna give that homeless person anything because they'll just spend

it on drugs or like or like oh i tried to give them x y and z and they said they didn't like it can they have something else instead and it's like taking away the humanity of someone just because you look down on them it's like let them be more than just um a poor person a black person exactly yeah it's like you should be so lucky but what if a human can have autonomy autonomy what if a human can choose and what if you maybe just don't treat someone like absolute scum it's very like um not viewing that as like even a possibility for you it's like i'm in a different world where that could never happen to me and that is a different kind of person almost just so othering that it's like why don't you just put yourself in the shoes just try for a second to put yourself in

their shoes as someone that is on is living on the streets and see how you fucking spend your money it's not up to you to decide how they spend their money it really does actually emphasize like the gap between the like lived experience of two different people i remember having this conversation about race when there were like riots and looting and stuff going on and people someone in my life was like oh yeah but like if that was me sort of thing they were like oh you know but you why do you need to like be violent like can't you just like ask nicely sort of thing if that was me you couldn't imagine no you could never if it was imagine if it was you but almost like there's there's so much

in there so there's so much that we could argue to this person and let's just name a few just the idea that even like your moral coding is different like i might grow up in a world where i know that murder is not murder let's pick something a bit lighter like stealing i might grow up in a world where i know that murder is not murder let's pick something a bit lighter like stealing i might grow up knowing like all right if i don't steal in exchange i'll probably get treated relatively nicely i won't go to jail like you know i'll be i'll be all right i i'm treated fairly by a police officer someone with darker skin than me has grown up maybe in a world where they're not given the same like rights and in exchange for those same outcomes exactly it's completely different in exchange for not stealing you get nothing for example yeah um so there's the there's a difference in like your experience and

your awareness of like how you interact in the world is completely different you have a completely different experience so you can't begin to imagine if i was them i would just ask nicely sort of thing it's also just a wild it's a wild like assertion of like if i was you if i was being if i was dealt the hardship that you were dealt i would handle it so well so much better so well i would just i'd be really good at it and it kind of feeds into the pick me thing of like i do think there is a branch of woman maybe that sees the situation and thinks i'm not just going to pick the easy way out i'm going to throw everyone else under the bus and feed into this patriarchal narrative to survive i'm not necessarily even feeling hateful towards that kind of woman like i do think like no okay so you've been born within

a system you can either use that system in the way that all of the men also use that system and shit on the people beneath you it's pretty fucked like i don't um condone that i don't think that's a good behavior but also it's like okay so if we look at the spectrum of people that are doing that there's 50 of the world are doing that the men are doing that why are we going for the one woman that is also doing that like it's kind of when people look at the kardashians and it's like look i have many thoughts on the kardashians i feel like i text you every time i watch an episode of the kardashians being like i hate them like they are not good people but the amount of critique that they get because they set horrible beauty standards i mean you've only got to look at chris jenner the way she spoke to

the sales assistant when she was buying her little doll's houses it was horrific that was really it was actually a horrific thing to watch that was really crazy surprised they put that in to be honest i'm not because i almost think so now they're doing it it's essentially james corden is running it's not james corden but it's ben winston who's brilliant just who you need whose dirty hands you need on it but i think they're almost a lot of the editing i think they're towing the line of appealing to an audience that is almost quite satirical like you're almost laughing like they're doing things with a bit of a wink and a nod they're like they're showing it of like they're showing their bad parts and kind of relishing in the audience being like ah i that was so bad do you know what i mean well they're giving a little bit more of that angle because

chris jenner is so fucking boring as well like her parts of the skip skip skip bits i think that it's like look you can either play into kind of the evil stepmother sort of vibe of oh these doll's houses are disgusting go back to work and make me nice ones for my daughters it's like what you do realize you're actually playing like an evil villain i do think it's almost like look you've got two options no one gives a fuck what you're doing or people can view as the villain okay you want to be on tv bad enough look just play the fucking villain then i am surprised they haven't marketed the like girl boss angle a bit more from her of like a little bit i think they tried to with there was the bit where kim kind of pranked her that she was going to go on the bachelorette

which was such a plug for another fucking um disney show um and where she phones up the head of disney she's like it's chris jenner and it's like i'm sorry like you i don't know she's just so bleak to me they were all so bleak to me roasted bleakness roasted yeah go on bleak but with the amount for example they get hated it's not even proportionate to all the men that are doing in the shadows like for example the person that chris jenner was on the phone to that man his history isn't public in the way the kardashians are and he hasn't made a sex tape blah blah blah but i'm sure he's exploiting women in far more um like real ways than the kardashians ever have but he's just done it in the dark well this was okay so i'm gonna put this conversation now in

here i'm about to say something that i was kind of thinking about in relation to the barbie movie but i think it fits nicely to tie up this episode nice because it really yeah we've done quite a lot yeah it really links to what you were saying when i was kind of first well obviously i've thought about this i haven't just started thinking about this this week i've obviously thought about this in my life for a long time but like over the past few days or like the past few weeks i've been thinking more about this topic and one of the first things that came to my mind kind of in a kardashian sense was one direction hit me so you know for example we have the barbie movie right she's a pink capitalist dream she's selling feathers and sports cars to young girls and it's all delightful and fun and silly and there's so much conversation around like greta gerwig should know better like oh margot

robbie yawn like all of these things right come there's so much um there's so much critique ready and waiting to go at like using barbie which is like the poster child of like consumerism and like beauty standards kind of racism right there's so much critique so much critique ready to go at um kind of like an economic object being held at women there's so much critique ready for that and it reminded me for some reason i don't know why it made me think of one direction and kind of what one direction symbolized i guess in like you can just switch out one direction with with whichever like boy band or like young jones brothers whoever you were into just whatever that was for you

just interchange it whatever was on your what pad reading list just switch it out yeah the wanted sure the wanted yeah um were they were they a thing yeah but you know what no they were i saw it i saw a tweet yesterday that was talking about like um they were like music hasn't been the same since this and it was that you know the song glad you came i'm glad you yeah and people like the enjambment yeah like the way that the last line is the first line is just anyway oh is it the last line is the first the lot no it's like the last word of the first verse i think it is they use so it's like take my hand hand me a drink drink it if you can can you spend a little time time is slipping away god i know the whole thing yeah do you know what i

mean so they love they were eating up so i think there's a space for the poetry 101 exactly last line is the first line circular loop there's a there's a room for there's room for the wanted there okay so everyone's included in this list whoever it might be but just the idea of normally young men being managed by old men and sold to young women as a vessel of pink capitalism and an object to hurl at women intriguing there's some overlap there i think and in the way that we would eat up like nothing the girls love more generalization but nothing the girls love more than seeing for example zane be like oh yeah i was once in one direction like you know we had some great times yeah

literally full stop and everyone's like oh my god he's a mental health ambassador oh my like we really expect the bare minimum that's not uh i don't i don't want this to be like i'm attacking anyone at all i just think it's an interesting observation of like we really don't expect much from what is that exactly i mean look the conversation harry styles is kind of redundant now but we know we know he offers a fabulous show fabulous outfits good album he could keep his mouth shut on any social issue for the rest of time yeah and be hounded zero percent the amount who taylor swift is doing the equivalent i would say she's obviously doing it more and better

and the amount that we care about which are so knackering and that is why we need feminism 101 yeah no 100 and i wish we didn't but we do because also if you think that harry styles won the grammy over beyonce all of this like we've seen it happen we've seen we've seen um quite real world ways in which he like wins over perhaps more deserving people definitely um that and i don't think like he is one of those people that has he been discussed as like he definitely has like uncancellable like well there was definitely a time there where he could do no wrong i feel like there is still a point i think that don't worry darling the only wrong he's done is won that grammy and say that dumb yeah i think don't worry darling press really

hurt him and fucking my policeman jesus christ that was actually the pits like i enjoyed don't worry darling as a film and he was not great but i do think when it was that weird period of like don't worry darling and then it was like my policeman is coming out in like two weeks i actually remember speaking to him yeah he is over over exposed hide hide hide hide fucking popping run and hide get back in your house lock the door and then when that film came out and it was you've got a dirty mind it's like i don't know what i don't know what you can do other than just like get out of my face right now i do i think the press around like don't worry darling and like it's a movie movie like go see in a theater like he was being laughed at spitting on chris pine spitting on chris but it was it was absolutely huge and everyone he was being ridiculed right but i

think women just get ridiculed every day silly things he wasn't actually being hated he was like he made a joke like he went on stage and said like i've just popped over from spitting on chris pine like he was still absolutely thriving like he wasn't being hated on the way for example olivia wilde who i mean there is huge nuance to what she did miss flow is not an amazing fucking thing to say about queen florence pew um also sending that to shia labeouf like there are huge fucking issues with what she did but i do also think like the amount of them as a couple at the time the amount of hatred towards olivia wilde versus harry styles who was seen as like untouchable i mean the like the disparity between what they did it's like yeah um olivia wilde did do kind of more fucked up things but

it's like i dread to think what harry styles actually done in the fucking dark like i actually i don't trust anyone around here i dread to think i really don't i just i'm not quick to defend any men in the world that we can see that anyone from a marginalized group or anyone from an undermined group historically is treated largely as such so like that there's just there's a it's hugely disproportionate the ways that we respond to people yeah so so maybe feminism 101 isn't so bad after all the girls make their tiktoks let's just chill just be yourself and don't have a go at other women in the meantime unless it's chris jenner fuck her exactly there was a moment there where i was like oh i can't but diabolical let's go that was you know what i think we pulled that off i think that was good i think that was good there's ups and

downs yeah you know i feel like it took my moment to get my feet about 20 minutes in i'm like yeah yeah get into the stride well before we started recording i was like i don't know how we're gonna do this i'm not gonna lie no but we did recording, I was like, I don't know how we're going to do this. I'm not going to lie. No, but we did it. We did it, yeah. That was good. All right. See you later.

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