Goes Without Saying - How To Date Straight Men Challenge Level Impossible

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on the dating landscape in 2025, the horrors of educating men in their 20s, accepting the bare minimum, the vulnerability of infatuation, and everyday misogyny. ✷see more ✷ youtube @sephyandwing ✷ instagram @sephyandwing ✷ tiktok @sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Goes Without Saying. You're listening to Goes Without Saying with Seffi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Seffi. We are having such a fun time recording this episode. Today we've been speaking about so much shit. If you are experiencing the current dating landscape, if you are a person who has ever met a straight man, this is the episode for you. We're talking about the confusion and insecurity that comes with the will they, won't they? Are we, aren't we? What are we situationships of the time? We're talking about the etiquette and expectations placed on women.

We're talking about training these men up to then go and find somebody else and you don't even get to reap the rewards. This is sounding like you. Keep listening. It's a very fun one. Thank you being here. So hang on.

You're going, you're going. And you're going. Okay. And you're going. Let me just. I sort of just need someone. Boom, boom. Sorry, that was right in your glass.

Yeah, okay. Boom, boom. Let me hear you say, why. Well. Where? Hello. Hello. Compromised audio.

Enhanced video experience. So go and watch this video because this is probably the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. And it's us. First of all. But we're not the beauty in this situation. This is a gorgeous room. Okay. We're in a beautiful beautiful.

We are in the heart of Brighton. Yeah. If you know Brighton, you'll know where we are. The sea is right there. You can see the sea in this shot, I think. There are three shots, three cameras going on now. It's so stunning. They're also all set up by us, like behind glasses and stuff.

All of a sudden I'm like, oh, oh, good brother. There's a lot going on. There is a lot going on here. And in this episode, we have very excitingly partner with the artist's residence in Brighton to record a lovely episode from here and show off how beautiful it is basically. Yeah.

And I have to say so far, we're loving it. So good. They've let us use the room and they're also letting us have dinner later at the restaurant, which I personally am excited for because I'm so hungry. Yeah, I know, poor Seffi.

So Seffi's had a long day. I've come from Norwich, so I got up, it's not that bad a time to get up, half seven. No, that's normal. But it's just the journey as long. And then it was like a, it was three hour 50 train. So it was quite a lot.

But I'm here. It's beautiful. Yeah. I think also just my thing was just on the train. Like, there was nothing to eat. Like, because the one. Well, the one to Norwich, there's like a trolley and everything. But then I kind of, and I thought, I'll get something on the next train.

Got on that train and that there's nothing. There's nothing on that one. You know, but it's fine. I had a Greg sausage roll. You did. Yeah. You did. Yeah.

for this place. Yeah. Well, not even looking, but I literally, I've been here a hundred times, walk past it every day of my life. And yet,

basically, we walk to Greg's and then had to walk back on ourselves. But I am so thick. No, it's not thick, it's just, we've got the same problem here.

I just couldn't get back to where I needed to go. So almost, basically, we're at the, no one cares, but we're at the sea front and I was going, ah, no one cares.

We got lost, but it gave me time to eat a sausage roll, basically. I just kept thinking, Oh, hopefully this one will turn us back onto it. Even lost feels like I can't actually put on the internet that I got lost 30 seconds from my home. But also it did inspire what we're going to do tonight.

After we've eaten our meal here, not at this table, at a restaurant. Maybe we could put a clip in, I don't know, just like a visual clip. I don't know if that's the thing on podcast. Have we been there yet? Yeah. We will. Yeah, we're going tonight. Of course we have.

Yeah. Wing said, it feels like we're in a labyrinth. It did. I had just been listening to a big podcast about the Minotaur and Labyrinths on my journey. And then I, then Wing said, shall we watch the film? The Labyrinth. Great film. Because you had said to me the other week.

Oh, I want to watch The Labyrinth. And I love the labyrinth. So I stored that in my brain. I thought, great. She's in on the labyrinth. That would be fun to watch. It would be very fun. And then now you've done this whole Minator thing.

So perfect. I'm going to capitalise on that. Got so much to say about the minor talk. Yeah, amazing. That's me. Yeah. So this episode's about the minor tour. It's actually a good episode.

I feel like we've started it quite. It's going to take us a second. A little bit of bibble babble going on as the beginning. As usual. Oh, shut the hell up. This is crazy. Like, what are we doing? Okay.

Dating vibes. We also just had a funny thing that we got like a thing on Instagram that said like five years ago today and it was actually one of it was a listener Harry that had shared back back in the day old old old

five year old now the episode doesn't exist anymore it's from the pilot season pilot season crazy pilot season is absolutely deranged that we called it that it's so funny like we still it's like the pilot season and we'll be like this is a bonanza

I'm like, we like, like, when we did Podmas, we were saying, and that's a wrap on Podmus 2025. Like, we like to sort of validate things with like professional speak, I think. Ironically. But like, no, no, I don't think pilot season was ironic. Pilot season was a, pilot season was like, okay, so this is for the pilot season. This is, also pilot. And then we took flight.

Yeah. Then we passed our test. And we took off. Yeah, and we flew. Five years ago today, apparently, on the pilot season, we had an episode. called Why You Hate Your Body. I remember it. I remember it did well.

Yeah, it did well. I don't know how. I mean, this one person listened to it. How the hell did you find us? I remember that going very, like, I remember that being a really good episode. Yeah, me too. But it was the classic thing,

which I think we've learned through all of this, that it's easier to share a lot when there's no one there goes out saying, you know that episode, you know where we filmed it, where we recorded it? You don't remember. Wait, no, let me get it.

Was it under a sort of coat rack? No, no, no. Go on. It was in my boyfriend's old office, in his old job. Oh my God. That was where that episode I remember when I did that one there. How is?

That's mental. So that probably had worse audio than this does. I feel like it probably was better because it was on that gorgeous phone that I had. The old opinion app. Anyway, this so far is getting chopped bits. Is it good so far? Should we start again?

No, we can't start again. Okay. I'm just checking on. I keep having moments where I check, you, you and you, everybody's... Camera one? Everybody's paying attention. We're all on.

Okay. We've got our eyes on you, Harry. There's three Harriers in the room right now. Right, so now let's finally talk about it. Yeah. We're talking about dating. Yeah. We've been talking a lot about dating.

Yeah. In life recently. But we, Harry, have not been... just sometimes it's hard to reflect on things when you're in them oh my god it's impossible you actually need to get through to the other side oh my god I was thinking about you the other day yesterday I'm doing a module called about non-fiction novels

it is relevant to us in every way oh my god it's so relevant to this I'd love to hear you think about me I do and especially yesterday I just summed up what you said there's a concept with like in order to write something I was thinking say something about your own life and the reason that we can never talk about stuff

when we're going through it and you almost need to reflect on it before you need to get through to this other side there's a concept in like memoir writing called afterwardsness and I thought that is so it's like you need to get through to this afterwardsness

so that you are the version of yourself that has experienced that not the version of yourself that is experiencing it and I just loved afterwardsness yeah it's cool I just thought like yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not at afterwardsness yeah no definitely yeah but also some things are never afterwardsness exactly yeah which I think is the crux that we find but um yeah yeah so we've been speaking a lot we haven't spoken about this a bit and I think what will be fun is we're going to do a bit of a throwback to remember our October series our smash series. That was smash hit.

That was really fun. I found that an absolute smash hit personally. Horror stories. You know what I did love about that? The book sounds. Yeah, 100%. Which I did see a lot of love for the book sounds, which I appreciate guys because it was, it was a lovely sound. Yeah. To listen to those old episodes if you have it. What are they called?

Horror stories. Cephy and Wings Horror Stories are they called? I think it's horror stories one, two and three. They were in October. It has like the. my boyfriend did the da-da-da like that sort of thing but around that time you all wrote in

some horror stories and we're gonna take another look at it we're gonna dig in because they were so good also we only really spoke about like one per episode and they're big you know they were bigans yeah I'm scared I'm gonna get sunburn

oh shit through this window I mean I'm not going to but like I am in the sun maybe if I turn a little bit the only thing that scares me is the audio say, is this on as well? Yeah, it's just very light. Is this on? Professional podcast. They checked at the beginning.

Is this on? Is this on by the way as well? Like, not easy. Just casual about it. Is this on by the way? Oh, God. Okay. Go on. Okay, okay, okay. This is kind of a two in one. This is like a double hit

that you kind of get there and then go to the... Okay, fun. So, how do you have a ball? would buy me a full dairy hot chocolate, which I was vegan at the time, and yet I sat and drank it whilst he made me watch the entire end scene of whiplash, whilst I simultaneously bled down my legs because I came on my period all at the same time. No. Hang on, noticed he had long fingernails also last week went on a date. Oh my God. This is the same person, so this is quite harrowing. Okay.

Last week went on a date, boy had to pull out mid-intercourse because a song came on, he said, was playing the day his nan died. Oh, God. We sat in silence. Oh, my God.

I couldn't go anywhere because I lived a 40-minute bus away and it was 2 a.m. They've then gone on, but I actually, I'm sorry, I have to stop me there. I might need to hear the rest of it, though, but should we unpack the beginning first? Yeah, so these are two separate people.

So let's do the, someone's buying your ad, very hot chocolate and you're vegan and yet you still drink it. I think I have a bit of a take, not even take, but my initial instinct to that is if you are in that position where almost, nothing bad, there's no confrontation or anything, but you are so, you're feeling so insecure almost that you can't even speak up for yourself on that level of like,

this actually doesn't meet my like dietary requirement. Like I'm vegan and you feel like, I don't think, entering into that space is you're not there yet. I don't think you should put yourself in those positions when things like sex are going to come up, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you're at the level where you're on a date with someone, there's blood dripping down your leg and there's a drink that literally you're like gagging. I'm pretty bad.

I don't think you should enter any further in. I think that should be a lesson of like, I'm not actually ready to advocate for myself in this yet. I also think it's about. I feel like you can be a certain type of person but then also you are in a situation and it could be that they are making you feel 100% of that, do you know what I mean? Well take it as the red flag of the person first

but I think if that is a pattern that like you're often in situations where like you can't literally advocate on very like basic things of like I'm sitting in a pool of blood if you whatever the guest who is like oh do you want a glass water? No no I'm right thanks And then literally 30 seconds later, it's like, fuck, I hope they ask again because I am parched.

I am dying of thirst and they're not going to ask again. And now you can't say, oh, sorry, actually, could I. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, I get it. It's like, no, that was literally my whole life. But now if someone offers me something, I'd just say yes. Yes, because I might want it. I just can't help.

I know. I think it's that you've matured out of that like. Yeah, yeah, you've made an effort. You have, like, and also, yes, like, I've totally been at the friend's house when they put down meat in front of me and like tried to eat around it and all of that stuff. Honestly, people did not understand

vegetarian even like up until I was like 15 I swear. Like yeah, I've definitely done that but I think when it's a romantic space and like obviously consent is coming into this stuff later if you can't do it with that person or whatever on the day in the cafe don't take it to the bedroom.

If I don't feel like I can safely, comfortably talk about my taste and not dairy hot chocolate I don't think I am willing to have sex with you

Well you're putting yourself in a position where you can't say no to something because it's like if you can't say I don't like milk I don't drink milk

when he starts doing quite literally God knows what I don't think you're going to be in a position to say I don't like that and also do you want to have sex

with someone that you don't feel safe to just speak how you feel with probably not I don't know maybe no you know you don't and even like that's not something maybe to push on if if it feels like that that sounded like a challenging experience like that and also sometimes the anxiety just hits like sometimes I'll be on the tube and be like oh god I'm embarrassed to like get up in a minute like sometimes just a random anxiety hits whatever but if it feels like a recurring that like going on a date to a cafe is tricky and all of that I wouldn't take it any further

because that's when things actually get really scary. And I think like if someone hasn't made you feel comfortable that like you can say how you feel with them even just about silly things or like if you just don't feel like you're kind of clicking on a certain level, like yeah, don't bother. Almost in the way that you cancel it out in your mind and you're like, oh, it's not worth saying no or it's not worth causing a thing whatever da da da da da it's now it's not worth seeing them again like let's just wind that down i think like it's not a good sign is it it's not a good sign either for the compatibility of the two of you for them as a person of like they're someone that makes people

feel uncomfortable and also i think it might be worth taking a look at yourself as well and being like right okay that poses like a problem that i think i might need to work on that i didn't feel that i could say oh actually I'm vegan I can't drink this even if you're like oh I'll buy myself like whatever but I do think

yeah there are loads of ways to do it in a nice normal yeah or like even if you want to be self-deprecate oh you're gonna hate me I'm just like I'm vegan I'm annoying vegan

like that is literally like my whole personality for like four years still is mine yeah well no you're not like that no I'm literally oh my god I'm so annoying I'm vegan like yeah

but also it has literally been my whole life so I'm kind of not look if you don't drink milk don't drink milk for a fucking guy on date. But also, like, don't feel bad about not being able to, like, advocate for yourself in that moment. Like, how many times have you done that?

You're going to do it again. Yeah. It's just life. Yeah, that one looks really. It looks amazing. Glad we put that one up. Yeah. That one less so.

I'm not sure about you. Yeah. Okay. Literally. I like when we workshop the episode halfway through. Yeah. I was going to say, I think about a lot. the like effort that I've had to make of being like when someone says oh would you like

off water being like yes please or like for example when we came here I had to message the person who invited us from the from the brand from the company on Instagram and say is it okay if I take a cold drink from the fridge no but I do get that normally no no that's a good thing that I did that yeah yeah normally I would just be like well I'm really thirsty so whatever I'll just forget it and like not even be able to ask is it okay if we do this do you know what I mean Yeah. I know it's not a big deal. Like, I wasn't for a drink, but it is, though.

Like, there's something about, you know what I think about it? Like, for example, with my dog, Ozzy. I've heard of him. Saw him just a few months ago. I think about it with Ozzy sometimes, because I sometimes, so like, obviously I'm obsessed with my dog, love my dog, love my dog. There are certain times where, like, someone would be like, oh, does he want this?

Or like, oh, we can move this for him. he's more comfortable and my instinct is to be like no no no he's all right he's all right and then I'm like I don't like that and also why yeah because I would almost think you'd be able to see it for him exactly and I I put this thing of like I have the thing that I want to be like no no no no don't do anything for me don't do anything for me and I've extended that on to my child my dog yeah and I do know that when I was younger in a parental situation as a child I watched a parent be like, no, no, no, she's fine, she's fine.

And I was fine. But, like, I was fine because you made me fine with being able. Or in not kicking up a fuss. Yeah, I was fine because you made me learn that I had to be fine at all times. It's not deep to be like, oh, do you want a glass of water? Or like, oh, no, no, no, he doesn't need a thing.

Or like, no, no, no, no, he's all right. He'll be okay. But I just am making an effort at the moment in my life to recognize when, like, I'm downplaying. my needs and like the extension of my needs because there's just no need and I don't want it to come out on a human child basically where I'm going with that no completely I feel like that's why a dog is quite great yeah to learn these things before it's a kid I started saying to him Ozzie and I hear it in my mom's voice oh god that's terrifying it's really like he'll do something

and I'll be like Ozzy like all like Ozzy and then I'm like oh my God I can hear her saying, Erin, and I'm like, oh, that's scary. It's really, I have no scary in me. Like, I am quite, yeah, that's definitely scary. Sorry, I know we're talking about dating. But I just wanted to talk about being child. It's a bit of everything today. Yeah.

We can't help it when we're together as well. Like, so when was the last time we saw each other? Oh, like, last one? Like, a few days. But we saw each other at the cinema. when losing means on my bank card Exactly

Exactly We spoke to a bit companion So when we get some like Extended time together Like I literally got here All we've done is We've done this I sat on your sofa

We spoke about some stuff And we got just some Little bits of gossip Yeah And then ate a great sausage wrong And there's so much to say Yeah there is

And also like these things are linked Like you not being able to say no To the dairy hot chocolate it is linked to every time you don't advocate for the things that you want for yourself. Also, like, the things that you don't even allow yourself. People would say to me, do you want a, do you want a drink? And I would say no, because I think it's a no.

I didn't even take a second to think about how I felt. Yeah, it's just, it's more important. No, no, no, no, no. And also not being used to analyzing your own needs to be like, am I actually thirsty? Yes. And this is why now as an adult, I'll be like, oh my God, I'm like starving. All of a sudden, it's like, no, you were getting hungry that whole time. forgot or like oh now I need a wee I'm gonna wet myself I'm gonna wet myself it's like you could have gone for a wee an hour ago comfortably yeah but that is crazy like basic

stuff and yet just like hello yeah not with it and I get it completely I know yeah it's yeah um okay so then when they were having sex what was this thing pulled out because there was a song playing oh that reminded him of his grandma his grandma Jesus a lot of grandma's coming up I know sorry about that. Love to see them. But that is quite crazy. I mean, that's absolutely horrific. Kind of also quite horrific for him.

But it is funny, like, mental. Something we talk about is, all the time, is the way that, like, you didn't feel comfortable to say no to a hot chocolate that you physically cannot drink against your dairy requirement. No, you still drank it.

You drank something you thought was rank or whatever. He gets to live his life and, like, if he feels uncomfortable for a second during, having sex with you because he thinks of his grandma who just passed away. No, stop. He'll take the moment. With no consideration,

or a little bit of consideration maybe for how that is obviously going to be super horrific for the girl. Sorry, I need to stop for a second because I'm thinking my grandma. I think that's fair enough. You can stop for a second if you're thinking of your grandma,

but it's very well. Girls don't get to stop when they think of their grandma. And also, you should obviously. No, of course, no, but you can't do that. But you cannot. Like, obviously, you can. You can. You can.

And you probably do. But I tell you now, you don't. But there have been times that you didn't, hey? Am I wrong? There were times that you didn't. Or, I'll put it this way. You are strongly encouraged by the systems that be to not. Of course you should.

But also, just the way that that will play out, I'm sure the girl goes home. She's going around in group chats, over-analizing. Was it about the grandma? Was it really about me? He wasn't that into it because I, blah, blah, blah, blah. Were you having sex? Are you putting on a show? I know you're putting on a show.

You're just putting on a show. No more shows. The show is cancelled. The show is over. The show must not... Go on. Permanent intermission. Yeah.

The show is cancelled. So I watched the Brutelist. Oh yeah. You liked it? Uh... I wouldn't go that far. Um... But it made me laugh when you said

the best bit about it was the intermission. I um I just ultimately felt like there was too much wrong with it for me to be able to enjoy it

I kind of agree the flaws the misogyny thank you this has been a huge debate why am I'm my you know what I actually get a bit riled up

because you know when I've had to have this I've actually had to argue about this film you've had to find your goals more than I would like to for a film that actually I probably don't have the very strong opinions on it

no I've become very... But you're not in the comfort of just talking with me I'm opinionated about it, but I actually think it was just a film I generally kind of wasn't that impressed by. But I now have these, like, big views about how I think it was actually quite horrible. But yeah, go on. Just like, you know when you're a minute into a film and you've already seen like 16 boobs? Not that you do, but like, you don't see a single woman.

A woman doesn't speak for the whole first half other than just in a voiceover and maybe I think a prostitute speaks. And I do think in terms of like the length. we see countless naked women. And when there is a scene where a man is in a sexual situation with another man, there's a rape scene basically. Fully close.

It's just dark silhouettes in the distance. It's like one of these. It's one of these cameras is there. What is coming on over? I can't quite make it out. You don't get an inch of skin. There's not, you know, there's the willingness to look at women is like so prevalent.

Yeah. Then by contrast, it's almost like, look, if that was two women, it would have been... We know what that would have been. We know what it would have been. Come on now. So that was my thought anyway, but let's not... Also, just on that, though.

Please. I saw it with a group, particularly one man that was very keen on seeing this. God, it was a huge thing, a huge thing. I think I was showing that trailer. I think it was probably coming up to 10 times. I like the trailer.

No, beautiful. A Joe Alwin. Of Taylor Swift fame. I feel bad saying that, but I shouldn't. He is Joel of Taylor Swift fame. And the fame of ruining conversations with friends. He hasn't got a great legacy right now. Hashtag Not My Nick.

Not My Nick. And I stand by it and the Brutters is not my film. So then the girls, so it was very divided with the people that had seen it. Like the boys really liked it and the girls really didn't like it. And I was saying it's very convenient that the boys here like it because, okay, so for the whole first half he's going around, his wife isn't there, he misses her so much, and you're a little bit of voiceover,

he's going to brothels and blah, blah, blah, blah. Second half, the wife shows up. Here's what happens. She is giving him a hand job while saying, I forgive you for fucking all those prostitutes. It's crazy. And then they have sex and he injects her with heroin and puts a fucking thing over her face so she can't breathe. It's a real... Of course you love that.

There was one bit that I was like, this is the dream of a woman. I forgive you. Yeah, but when she's, something happens, he's like doing it, he's got a huge work achievement and she turns to him and she goes, I'm so proud of you. Make love to me tonight. She's like, she's literally really ill, by the way. She's in a wheelchair.

She's in a wheelchair. It's really. And he leaves her. After she says that, he walks out of the room, leaving her in the wheelchair just in the room. Just there. Madame Webb. Literally, Madame Webb. No, it has that energy. It has the energy of like,

all of the men walking out of it, that was a mast piece. Oh my God. And it's like, we're not going to mention the fact that the only thing she does, even when she advocates for her. So she all sheds us wanks him off for saying,

I forgive you, whilst being completely absent for the first bit, for the whole first like two hours of the film. Then at the very end goes and it confronts people going, are you rape my husband? And gets dragged by Joe Owen and walks the room by the hair. He's gross in that. Oh my God.

And all he does is like, sexually assaultsum, like, teenage girl as well. It is... It's too misogynistic to fly, among other things. Trust me. This has been my conversation for the last two weeks. I don't want to hear the retorts. No, no, no, the retorts are... Retortes is funny.

Look, have you got to think to say, start your own retorts. It's brought up all the time and I'm retorting. Oh, good, I should hope so. Keep retorting. Don't let them get you. This is what there is in my kitchen. It says the Brutelist with a load of hearts around it crossed out. That's kind of the tone of the Brutelist.

There's a big debate at the moment. It's like, okay, so when I come into my kitchen, there's violence towards me. Unfortunately, you don't view me as a human being, and I'm just supposed to stomach that. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, to them, it's like, oh, we're just chatting about a film. But to us, it's like, this is life and deaf stuff. No, but let's not like, this is what everyone wants.

I forgive you. That's crazy. Insane. Not only if you just had a huge work achievement, make love to me tonight. It's ridiculous. Absolutely excruciating. Four hours.

Four hours of this. And we're supposed to think that this hasn't gone into our dating etiquette. No, that's why we come into the room and say, make love to me tonight. It's crazy.

And that looks like me, wangy, you are saying, I forgive you for cheating on me. And the wife looked painful. No, it looks really bad. It all looked very bad. Dry as bow. Oh my God, he's so hot, though, do you not think.

Oh my God, I was going to say to you, he's hot. He's perfect. In the beginning, he's hot. I love the nose. Yeah. So much. It actually kills me. He's a hotty.

So beautiful. Okay. Anyway, that was just the brutalest intermission. Yeah. So much to say. Hmm. Okay. I think, so I'm going to, basically, this person said something that doesn't make sense.

But then if I put words into your mouth, it does make sense. I see what you're going to. going to do it. Just from reading it once I know what you're going to say. Okay. So this person said, it's like you haven't said this, but for the sake of us wanting to talk about it, let's do it. So this person said, I think I'm emotionally intelligent to date a man. Go on. Now, there are a few ways that this could go, I guess. I think, go on. But I'm going to take it. Yeah. I think I'm too emotionally intelligent to date a man. What are the ones? could we have done.

I think I'm... Well, that's what I... Yeah, it has to be right. I think I'm too emotionally intelligent to date a man. Fair enough. Let's unpack. Yeah.

I think you're echoing the sentiment of... I think you're echoing the sentiment of kind of everybody here. Yeah. And it is kind of what we were just saying about the brutalist, where it's like, we can argue about the brutalist,

but fundamentally, I'm getting the vibe that you don't view me as human, so how do I do this? And I think... Yeah. In like straight relationships, there's a lot to be reckoned with and like a lot of effort to be made and a lot of like also just like luck. That the landscape is not good out here.

No, no, no, the landscape is bad. The landscape is quite bad and I think it's actually getting worse. 100%. I, God, I'm talking about this a lot. I'm thinking about this a lot and everything. Like this is a big topic, but again, I need to reach my afterwards-ness. Afterwards-ness. To get to actually...

Soon may it come. Soon may, long may she rain. Don't really, yeah. But I... Yeah, I feel like the education... Like, I definitely feel quite lost in this area. And I feel like the effort of educating a man might be an individual. endeavor I'm not willing to do.

Yeah, no. Like, I don't think I, but every single time, they do need educating though, that's the problem. Like, it's kind of, there isn't this perfectly... No, you need someone who's already been educated by somebody else. But even then, even then, I don't think people... Oh, I kind of find it really hard to explain, but it's like, the education has not been enough.

Proficient. No. I agree. Because I also think. Like, we're 28. Mm. I think a lot of young men, so like men are age and younger. Like, for example, we talk about men in our lives, and it'll often be like, they're like one or two girlfriends away from being great.

Jinks. Double paddle or triple paddle. Oh, my God, bubble spray. No one did that other than in my school. I don't know bubble spray. It's like, jinks bubble spray. But yeah, they're one or two girlfriends away from being great. Do you want to be the one or two girlfriends before he finally becomes a good person?

But also, like, I feel like I have a weird thing with this. I'm not necessarily looking for one person to be with throughout my life and, like, die with... And not die with this person. So I'm not necessarily trying to be this, get to this vision of two people that end together. That's not necessarily... No, but the time that you're together, you want to enjoy it. No, totally. but so but I'm also not

like I am very interested in having very interested very interested in doing what I have been and do do of just having great um little situations encounters and just and knowing people and just let you know all the stuff I'm not in the business of I'm not in the business of training someone up to be a husband that is not worth my fucking time

time. And I won't. Say something so sad. Jewelieper really was so promising. Go on. And radical optimism, her latest album was just, it hasn't hit the pop. What's she doing these days? She's still with that man. She's, I think they're engaged. What's the man? Calam Taya. Oh yeah, Kandana. Who my sister. I can't remember the whole story. Long live to them. Yeah. Let the bells ring. I actually love Jule Leper a night. Yeah. I think she's really interesting. Yeah. But she, I was, I literally had,

I have not listened to her in a long time. And I, this morning was listening to her song, training season, which I was spoken to her about before. Which is just a funny, silly, little goofy song, but she says, like, I don't want to have to teach somebody. I think that is the essence. And I'm done with the training season. Like, are you ready to go or not?

Like, it needs to be, Yeah. In prime condition or it's not worth it. But even the training, I feel like so many conversations, it's so, would be, I can't say too much. Oh. Well, give me something. No, I think that needs to go cut anyway.

Oh. No. Yeah, just previously, I feel like the education has not been up to scratch in terms of like even somebody that views themselves as house trained. They view themselves as like, okay, I'm equipped to have these conversations. Often I'm shocked by like how someone who we have they think they're like good politically I'm aligned like we have the same views they would consider themselves to believe all of this stuff I'm often shocked about like how the behavior like the actual

what they do in their lives yes is completely contradictory to that stuff they create a distance between themselves and the actions what they believe like their behaviors in their actions they feel are separate from the conversation of like what women deserve and like women's safety and equality and all of these things. I find so... They don't see themselves in that conversation. No, no. They think about like the things that women go through in this abstract way and like, oh my God,

there's so much violence happening towards these women. And they don't see themselves in that conversation in the slightest. I think, oh yeah, no, I'm above that. But that is such a... Oh my God, it is so infuriating to be having that conversation with someone that you're like romantically... engaged with. It's so infuriating to have to like explain what is so basic to women.

It's so fucking basic of just like... It's inherent in your being. It's actually like a physical thing. I just, I think I actually find that so... Do you know, my main emotion in that is just like anger, which I don't necessarily love to feel in terms of like romantic. to start. It's not very, you know.

No. It's not really getting me going. It's not enemies to lovers. I'll put it that way. No, it's kind of lovers to enemies. I would find it also demoralizing. Like, dehumanizing. Literally.

It's really dramatic for me to be like, oh, I feel like, you know, dating some guy who's not as great as you want him to be as dehumanizing. I get how that might sound like a jump. But it doesn't. That's not true. It doesn't. Do you ever see those things?

It's always like, I always see like a tweet or a TikTok. It's like it's just two crazy people saying exactly. Yeah, no, it is. But it is exactly. But it is dehumanizing to not only you trying to navigate like, oh yeah, do I like you? Desire like you and all these things and like getting to know somebody and da da da da. But it's also loaded with like, by the way, do you view me as a human being? Yes or no.

It's not equal. This is the thing that's so fucked about like the way that our society. Have you straight relationships? Has framed it. Like, and everything to do with like, the films we watch at like the end in a fucking wedding and all of this shit, we have framed it as if there are two equal people

entering into an equal partnership. That is not what it is. That is not what it is. That is not what it ever historically has been and it is a complete lie and disservice to women to actually be framing it like that. It is not equal. The risks here are not equal

of having children, of having sex, the man, the woman is taking on so much more. And that's why I absolutely cannot stand about any of this. Same. It's not equal. I can't remember who it is who wrote that thing about, like, men actually want men. Go on. It's a really famous thing.

And I can't remember who it is. But she says, men, like, yeah, like, they want to fuck women or whatever. And they, like, want to do, da-da-da-da, they want to show off women. but they want to show off women for other men and they want to like be with women for other men and when you ask men about what they admire or respect or like truly love it's men yeah men desire women and want to fuck them sometimes but when it comes to love and true true love men love men yeah and men do not love

women, which I think is interesting. I think it's horrific. I was just like, there you go. Take that. Do I love women? Like, in a way, it's like, yeah, I desire men and I like men, blah, but really when I think about the people that I truly respect and like

whose opinions mean the most and who I genuinely like respect and who it all comes down to, maybe it is women. I think it is. Like, I have so many men. that I love but like the people whose decisions I agree with and get and think like yeah I do think it's like if I those the opinions I want yeah I mean in terms of just looking at your life

I'm looking at you like as a sim and I open up your relationship but I'm going through those men I'm thinking not don't need that opinion I'm not going to let that be the but you've got loads of women that it's like yeah sure go for it yeah yeah yeah so I think yeah yeah So yeah, live your life. Yeah. Even though there are some that I think, like, the men, that I've got some men in my life who I think are,

the absolute best. Yeah, they're really really upset. The absolute best. But your opinions don't mean half as much as the women. But not the best. They are, but their opinions are framed for a masculine lens. They don't get it. I think it's more just like a good get for like the kind of young,

like kind of men with podcasts. Just like this, but worse, basically. See all these men. with podcasts who like love to act like they don't care about what people think and stuff and it's this real like alpha vibe but it's like actually all you are trying to do is like you actually live to impress men yeah like when men like the kind of and as well like talking about the current landscape and like what currently looking at young men looks like and the way that it feels like it's gone over the past year or two it feels very much like men um um

are especially at this moment living to impress men. Yeah. Because they're like, you know. They can't even say Margot Robbie as hard. They're calling Margot Robbie Mid. It's like, okay, you're doing this for other men then. But also, the respect for women has never been more low and the respect for women for men has never been more high,

of course it's like there's no need to. Also, it's like, oh yeah, that's just not even go there. Do you want to hear a funny thing instead? I'd love to. Just talking about men with podcasts. I know someone who has just got divorced. and her ex-husband started a solo podcast

where the episodes were two hours long age. Oh. What a gold mine is that? Who is that? Oh, why. Isn't that crazy? Like two hours solo pod. Right, again, I'm going to sound absolutely unhinged here,

but I actually think there's a safety reason for you to get divorced then. Like, do I mean, I actually think that's good for your safety. No, 100 phone. Which suddenly is like, fucking hell, chill out. Like, what is she on about? But it's interesting to consider the amount of, because I always talk about the podcast of like,

I definitely don't feel voiceless. No. And if you think of, for example, like this in-cell generation and like what it means to be a voiceless man, for a man to feel voiceless. Yeah. The implications that that has on the people in his life and the women in his life.

Yeah, it's really scary. I will also say we're rapping, we're coming, you know, we're post-45, okay, so anything goes at this point, that I have not trained my boyfriend, I have by like just being with him, but that is like an off-the-shelf

kind of perfect person, and I do think there are really good human beings out there. 100% to be found, but like I wouldn't recommend pouring your all into something that feels really devastating or hard

or like they're challenging who you are or they're not making you feel good or you feel like like this is made again but I might sound unhinged but like I expect a lot because the world is so unequal

so you have to be like a real showstopper doing them most for me to warrant spending my time with you. Which is fine to have high standards, but I'm looking for like a lot, a lot, a lot. And I think it's really important to just not, you know, waste your time or feel like you've spent a lot of time with someone. I think it's energy as well. Exactly. Like this is a big thing.

I mean, I couldn't imagine using my energy. no no you actually can't like the amount of energy that goes like you might just think oh yeah it's a fun um i don't know what you're doing i don't know what you're doing harry but like say you're entering into like a weird situation yeah whatever i don't think i think it's underestimated how much energy you are going to put into them regardless of whether the fact you see them for this amount of time you don't even like them i don't care that much the energy is there yeah and also that energy takes away, this is a crucial thing I think that I have learned over the

course of my life, that the it's not just the time that you spend with that person. No. That is whatever. You actually bring that and this is the crucial thing that it cannot affect and it does affect when you're like dating a bad person, you've got all these thoughts, it affects

then your relationships basically. And everything in your life. It affects your relationship to yourself. Completely. But the thing that I hate is it, then you go and see your friends and you're talking and you're unpacking that thing and then you're... No, that's bad. No, no, that can be fine,

but I also think you have a personal thing with like... Yes, because there's a shitty thing eating into a precious thing. Yes, but the precious thing is made precious by all the times that your friends get to be there talking about shitty things. That's why they're precious. Like, I think you...

I agree with you that like, yes, you know, now you're spending your time, your precious time, whatever, with your friend. talking about something shitty who is not deserving of that conversation. I completely get that sentiment. Why are you in the room with us? I completely get that. But I also think you also are a bit too hard on yourself sometimes.

No, no, yes, 100%. When you have, you know, an interest in something, it's important to let yourself express that. When there's actual thoughts, when there's things to unpack, when I'm bringing a new dynamic to the table, there's things to unpack. There are. There's things.

When I'm bringing a new thing that's intriguing a new angle, I don't mind having that because that feels like there's space on the table for that. Always. But what I don't like is when it ends up bibble, bibble, bibble, babble about absolute nonsense. I like bibble, bibble, bibble, babble.

I think bibble, bibble babble is important. I think talking about things with your friends, oh, this mess up, whatever, with your friends is important. I think it's... Actually, because I think that is the consequence of if you're not doing that, if you're not having these conversations with your friends, it's when you're at home in your bed on your phone, feeling really, really shit and it's all stirring in here.

Definitely. It's all being mulled over in the water. But these things do have an expiry date. There is only so much your friends can physically take, I think. And I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm anywhere near that level. But there is only so much. And I think it's a lot to expect. people to listen to your literal bibble babble about nonsense my advice here's actual advice that I

have for you if you find yourself doing you've you've got mentionitis you're mentioning this name oh you don't you have you coffee oh let me tell you this one more thing about yeah you have in coffee oh that reminds me of when yeah yeah like if you find yourself that's called mentionitis not to me it's not no it is actually called david it's like oh he has a jumper like this Like, that is obviously funny, but I think, don't expect too much of your friends. Like, that is quite excruciating when it gets that point.

My advice view, it is, is. I actually think I disagree with this on a political level. It is too much. And I think it's like, it's eating into your precious time with your friends. But, of course. You're not only valid as a friend

when you're only focused on yourself. No, no, no, no, not at all. Like, all these weird versions of you where you start going mad. No, no, I love the madness. What I'm saying is, I think... No, no, you're not. You're squashing the madness.

You are. No, no, no. No. There is a part of it that's squashing the madness and saying there's only so much room for that. Like, your friends can only tolerate so much of that, which I do get. Okay, well, I'll speak from myself. There is only so much I am willing to do that,

and only so much I physically can take from people. I think it's important to have mentionitis and be yap, yap, yaping on about this thing that you're into. To an extent. Because I think the alternative is it's... You just internalize it all. Then you journal, get therapy. Yes. but also you have friends is what they're for.

No, it is, no, it is. And I'm not under, I'm not discounting that. But you're not like, I rely on that so much. I know, as you should. Like, I know, that is, I agree with you that people have their limits. I agree.

And like, yeah, it's annoying. It's like, oh, I've spoken about this guy for four hours, let's go for a fifth. I get it. I get it. Oh, God. Get me out. Get me out.

I get that. But I also think, isn't that life? Isn't that the point of life on this planet as, as people, and as women, to be able to, confide in our peers and like I think celebrate that because I think being so obsessed with somebody is quite scary no it's insane and isolating actually yes yeah you know nobody else is feeling what you're feeling and if they are then you're in trouble and you've got a you've got a love triangle situation on your hands ding ding it's an isolating experience to be so in deep and I think

the more you can talk about it and laugh about it and be annoying about it and blah blah blah with people that you love and trust is a good thing definitely I agree of all of that I don't think you do I think people you love and you trust all of that stuff but I also think have some respect for the people that you love and trust

sure I really do actually like sure but I don't think that is there like what are you on about I think I like I am very aware of so here's the thing When you have a crush, it is only, it is interesting for three hours to people.

Okay, let's say. I think you're maybe, right, go on. I don't look, I don't know. I get hyper aware of when, oh, I don't know, my energy just died, sorry, my battery died. Mid-minute, I don't know. All right, all right. I agree with you. Be nice to your friends, there's all of the stuff.

But I'm saying be kind to your friends by not banging on about the same old boring guy for hours. And respect to your friends. Get over at Sepi. I think there's, I think there's a layer of misogyny here coming out that women aren't allowed to speak about boys because it's like, it undermines them. Of course. So, have you seen the Sex and the Sissy episode where Miranda is like, guys, have you realized that every single conversation we have is about boys?

I do think that is worth keeping in your mind. Sure. When you're with your friends of like, okay, guys, has this. But come on now. Are you telling me your friendship, maybe some friendships do, but these are not the friendships that I think we're entertaining is the way that, okay, you only ever talk about this one boy or this situation. No, we're not. But like, generally, I know for you,

and I know for you, Harry, mostly, the friendships, and when I talk about the people that you love and trust, your friendships are built on so much more than just your conversations about, for example, if it's men you're dating, your friendship is built on more than that. Totally. If your friendship was built on only that, or your existence was built on only that, then yeah, I get it. No, that's terrible. Then...

But I generally think, start yapping and keep it, coming. It's funny, it's silly, we look back on it. It's a joint effort, it's a team effort. It's so difficult to be like dating and liking someone and did I read this wrong? You're preaching to me. What did they mean? You know you're preaching. But politically important and entertaining. No, okay. Okay, okay, okay, but maybe you have an entertaining person doing the delivery. I have had some point. Why do you know anyone? What? Who? No, it's in I'm the entertaining. Yes, I know.

But I've had some boring people telling me that things. That's friendship, Saffy? No. That's called being a good friend and listening to your friend. I think you're going mad. I think also being a good friend is being like, no, no, you're totally. And you're taking it out on me and you're like, you know, you're yapping on about, I've told you how I feel about this guy and da-da-da-da.

These are two separate issues. No, no, I'm open to the fact that they're into different things. But you do have, you're having it delivered in a great way. I'll put it that way. So I feel like you've got a skewed version of like. Like, I'm delivering it nicely. Yeah, and I'm not, I'm delivering it so boringly as well. I feel like you're giving person as well.

You've got more energy for this than more than most people. I think that's important. I think that's what friendship is. Yeah, but also. I'm here for it. It's like, oh, if we became friends, it's like, yeah, I want to hear the ins and outs. Yeah, same actually. But it depends.

That's what friendship means to me personally. I've been in, no, it does, it does. And then it does get to a point. Fine. Fine. But I don't think that's like, you know, I don't want to make a law about it. No. Do you know?

I mean, I don't, it's like, yeah, I guess it does get annoying. Is that an issue? Basically, guys. Basically. Let's get a real here. But like in a very coded way. Yes, okay. But so I feel like I'm banging on about shit right now.

So that's what that was. So I'm not calling anyone else boring. I'm purely calling myself boring. I know. I'm actually not concerned about it with you, but I am concerned with one other friend that I am, that I'm literally, no, no, I'm boring, I'm boring, I'm just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but can I tell you something?

Things that I think, and this is to you directly, so. But be very, extremely careful. Of course I will. Because I've got to cut it. Of course I will. No, no, I'm not even going to go into, I'm going to go into your personal being, actually. Oh, God. No, no, it's not about anybody, it's about you.

I'm analysing your personality. Okay. So like I said, I think there's a layer of misogyny that it's like, you feel a judgment on yourself for speaking about something that is so lowly

as like, oh, I'm just a girl talking about boys. Like, you know, we're looking down on that. You don't want to do that. Okay? And I think that's, you know, that's an issue that. I truly don't want to do. Yes, I know. And I remember once, no, no, I can't say that.

No, God. What's going on? No, no. I don't know if I was about. I actually can't say that. Right, that one gets gone. And I also think, you know, it's a vulnerable.

thing to do and I think it can be difficult to be vulnerable and it requires a level of opening up and vulnerability and spilling it all out there and that can be really hard and there is an instinct to toughen up and like keep it tight and be safe and it requires you to be honest about how you feel and the feelings can be really scary and and embarrassing and all of this stuff but i'm good with all that i think i say some really embarrassing things yeah yeah you do but then you say sorry i've got mangenitis I've got Mentionitis. Well, before I get into it, I've got Mentionitis. It's like, okay.

Yeah, okay, like, and you think you're good with that, yeah? Like, maybe you are, but also, I think there's just a little bit more room to just close the gap of, like, you don't have to feel so insecure about speaking about somebody you like. Like, it doesn't have to be. Maybe it doesn't guys, maybe it doesn't. I think we should celebrate it. I, the highs and the lows, but I do really. I also condemn it as a behaviour.

I don't, I welcome it and I think as well I really agree with you that it is all about energy I'm such a cunt I actually hate this energy No it isn't but it is the one thing

I agree with that That actually is what you said About like you're giving all your energy to this thing and I feel like It's just important My overarching crux would be like If you're in a little thing Where it's like you're talking with somebody

You've got a thing going on just take a second and be like, you know, what is my energy giving me here? Like, do I feel like I am like draining my guts out, squeezing myself dry to, yeah, make this person perfect

for like the person that they see in about six years? Oh, fucking hell. Maybe. And like, if you're in your 20s, probably. Like, that's kind of a lot of what it is is like we learn so much from each other. That is really political when men are learning lots from women

in that sense. And women are teaching. And women are doing the teaching. And that's what the exchange is. But generally, having an acceptance of like, okay, I'm going through my experiences, I'm giving and I am taking as well. No, that is so crucial. And boy, do I receive. I think that's really, really important. But then I also think, like, okay, maybe you haven't met this person who's like really, really, oh my God, giving you everything. Wow, so amazing. Love, love, love. But for the time being, put more focus on giving that to yourself. like they you know we might not have this like oh my god I'm so into this like

oh my god he's great or like yeah they they're da-da-da-da-da-da-da they might not be like you know for another couple weeks whatever for the time being like wouldn't it be nice if you just spent like the rest of the week being like if I really valued myself how would I treat myself like would I spend more time feeling good about myself what's this little mischievous face I'm just I'm just like I'm listening yeah no I'm just like nodding Okay, I'm into it. Well, I think that's it. I think it's just like,

be aware of the energy that you're giving and taking, which sounds so wonky. No, it's so true. I do think it comes down to that. I agree with that. Like, because also before you know it, you've wasted a lot of time. Yeah.

And almost like, often what I see is like, in those things, it's like, so this is, I think, kind of what I mean, if I actually strip it back, of like, in those, like, sort of, in a relationship or whatever or like a thing. Yeah.

Often it's like, okay, so the time you spend together and the time apart, often the guy goes and does all the stuff he would usually do and sees his mates and whatever. And then the girl goes away and analyzes the things that happened with their friends. And often that is what I see play out, which I don't like. So I think it's about making sure that whilst you are literally wading in the fucking mess of like being like infatuated and all the stuff and that is a mess and I

I hope it comes across how much I literally like worship that like that is my bread and butter I love nothing more than a crush hearing about a crush all that's it is actually genuinely my fuel for life but I think it's really important to take time outside of that

and make sure you are like also doing the things you want to do like don't let any of your friendships or hobbies or things that you do to like feel your your own being don't drop those because that infatuation is so strong if anything i would say add more i would almost treat it like an illness you're love sick yeah i think it's actually like if you felt like oh i've got a big thing coming up i'm going on holiday or like i've got a trip coming up or like i've got a big work thing or you've got a party something you didn't want to miss in like five days time but you feel yourself coming down with a cold oh i'm ginger shots all over the

place. I'm vitamins popping. It feels like it's crazy. I'm like taking the, oh wow, the most care of myself. For the time that you are lovesick, spend more time, for example, with your friends, spend more time doing the things you make you feel good, watch more films. And yes, this is kind of the thing.

Yes, speak to your friends about the thing. And I do agree with you that that stuff is so valuable and it's actually essential for working out. It's a priority. It is. But I also think don't waste that time. by only analysing and talking about that thing. Like, yes, of course, there's so much room for it, but... I think it's like, you don't need to take that stuff away.

You just need to add more of the other stuff. Yeah. Because if you have nothing else going on, but... That thing to focus on, you will actually be like a wreck. You'll combust. Yeah, you will. And I think that goes for, like, most things in life. It's like, when there's stuff really, really consuming,

this is actually something that I've seen somebody talk about food. Um... which is maybe not really relevant here, but if you have a thing with food and you find this interesting or you find it helpful, here you go. I can't remember her name, but she's like a food nutrition person. And she always says,

which I think is very helpful for people, when you're thinking about like, oh, I want to just like, you know, make an effort with my food or whatever, whatever that means to you, don't think about taking stuff away. Think about adding more. So it's like, okay, you already might eat like fucking beans on toast.

Okay. you don't need to stop that. Just add some avocado in there. Add some whatever. Like you can have what you already have. Just add more. Never take away. Don't subtract.

Just add more. And I feel like you don't need to subtract anything from the mess that is liking somebody. I agree with that. Just add more on top because that can help dilute it. And that can help like make you feel like more of a functional content, safe, secure human being. Because I do think like liking someone, getting to know someone. relationships in life, it's very scary stuff. It's very consuming.

Petrifying. It's a lot. And also like, um, threatening, I would say. Like, it actually poses a very real threat. Like, not even, like, there's obviously a huge imagined threat of like everything. But there is like, you know, it's not, um, is there a matter? I don't know if he's in the shop. It's definitely in our real life.

Yeah, yeah. It's, um, all we ever see is a lot of women's pain in all ways. So I think it's like, yes, I'm not saying don't talk to your friends. That's not what I'm saying. I think I'm saying like, let's respect those friendships. And I think that is like adding, yes, adding more and make, and also like building up who you are outside of that. Yes, and hold on to that.

Yeah. So that's really hard. Oh my God. But is the crux. It's the crux of life. Okay. this is such a long episode I think it's quite good

I think I love it trim the beginning I'll just do a little bit of gicing and something like that I don't quite know what was said in that and that was good alright well um if you don't hear from us

assume the worst