Goes Without Saying - how to have feminist sex: what, like it's hard?

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

sick of being choked by boys with no bed-frames and dirty fingernails? in this episode of Goes Without Saying we're breaking up with bad sex and taking you to the mysterious promised land of ~feminist sex~ ! can feminist sex exist in a patriarchal society? is there room for genuine female empowerment in heteronormative relationships? why do men benefit from sex more than women? join us (sephy & wing) as we get down and dirty, discussing sexuality, power, orgasms, and... shrek? speak your mind on the sephy & wing instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Welcome back to another episode of Higher Priestess. This one is much awaited by me, at least, because I've been so excited to speak about it since we had a little preview on the phone, Sefi. Since birth, I've been excited to talk about feminist sex. I knew it was my mission for this lifetime, and I'm excited. My name's Erin. I'm joined by... Persephone. And we're going to discuss feminist sex, if it's possible, how to have it.

Why so many of us are not having it yeah and how to break the cycle let's break it break the wheel break the fucking wheel stay tuned so this episode came up as an idea because seffy you called me the other day and made quite the declaration and i said stop stop stop let's do it on the pod do you remember what it was yeah well i phoned you and said i'm never having sex with a man again which is quite the statement i would say so i don't know whether i agree i go through phases with this where i say i'm never doing this one thing again kind of like i'm never eating a carrot again i'm never gonna drink tea again never drinking coffee again and tomorrow it's carrot salad day all day rabbit day i have

done this with many things before yeah where i like a big big statement i'm never doing this thing ever again and then the next day it's like um okay well i can't help myself i had carrots yeah i had sex with 10 men louis three came around i didn't what was i supposed to do so what happened what um what triggered you well i was thinking about like power dynamics within the within society that are heightened within sex and i was thinking about consent as a whole um just going about my life i'm in the i'm paying for my food i'm in the queues i'm kind of buying my tea i'm walking on my walks thinking about consent it's just what we do yeah and i was thinking about how i feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of consent as it is like conceptualized in our society.

In that if two people both decide to have sex, that is consent. Both people don't say no. Both people say yes, that is consent. But that completely ignores power dynamics that exist within society. In that we know that we exist within a patriarchal, capitalist, white supremacist society. We've been through this. We've read our marks. We we've read our angles we know what's going on here it's funny actually that you say that consent is just like okay like they said yes they said yes now they're having sex and that's fine and that's consent um and yet we haven't figured out how consent can interact with other power dynamics when it comes to the patriarchy when we still have we've managed to

as society be like okay it's wrong if 35 year old man grooms a 16 year old or 15 year old girl in the uk and she is saying yes yes yes i want to have sex with you yes yes yes we understand that that still cannot be consent because she is a minor so we do understand how all of these things interact and yet we still are finding it so difficult or only now seem to be having the conversation of like but actually there's a broader power structure in place it's not just about age or career or familial status or any of that it's also just in the kind of superstructure of what we know men and women have been kind of vastly separated when it comes to power and i think it's quite naive to be saying two people that are in completely separate positions in their life can equally come together in this sort of um this

joining of equal parties it's like but it's not that though it's not that though like that is not what's going on it's not two equal people deciding on the same thing together it's someone that has power and someone that maybe has less power societally coming together to decide things and things play in in different ways race obviously plays in class obviously plays in i'm thinking the model of consent that we have is so simplistic it's so flawed well we have said probably in like four episodes in a row now that you can't effectively consent in a patriarchal society, because how could you? In a society where so much of sex is built on porn that is violent against women, where so much of sex is built on male superiority to be presumed and female inferiority to be presumed, when so much of sex is built on like heteronormative ideas how can you consent when you're teaching children what sex is and you've split up the girls and boys and you told the girls about their periods and how boys are going to have wanks how is that sex education yeah you told the women what a tampon is and how to put a sanitary towel on and how to

put a condom on and you told the men you can do this thing it's called wanking you have these things called wet dreams your cum makes a baby and the women are learning about the pain of childbirth i don't think so i don't think so why did we not find out what a clit was until our friends told us yeah what was your sex education like as a child shit was it i think my formal sex education was shit my personal sex education from like my mum was great what about you did we watch like a cartoon of like of people properly like fucking we we had sex education quite a lot i loved i used to love when we were gonna have sex education so my favorite i mean it's still kind of my favorite thing now but i remember they took they brought out this model of a penis it was in year eight and the teacher was pregnant that was teaching us and we remember one of my friends

going she fucked and we all thought it was hilarious we're like oh my god she's had sex i still think that's funny she fucked she fucked but we definitely had sex education or a form of sex education in like god like year four i think really i don't think ours was that young i think we had year five and year six stuff but it was very much split off and we were learning about periods oh my god and the question i asked oh yeah i got the question i fucking asked oh my god this has just come back to me like oh my god i've been hit by a truck and tell it on the pod tell it on the pod they said does anyone have any questions tell us and it was like an anonymous thing and of course you did and i wrote yeah of course i'm always the first to i remember i put the condom on like in like year eight and thought

i was so cheeky for it um yeah anyone have any anonymous questions and i wrote in is the number of times you put the penis in the amount of babies you have oh my god isn't that sweet oh like i thought it's like how old are you this is in primary school this was year five it must have been all year yeah potentially but i remember thinking like what the hell like i obviously thought you just latch on for dear life and you don't want any more than one when did you and your mom start talking about it then i started my period really early i started my period in year five so had you had but you spoken about it before there was always the thing of we had this fucking weird book called mummy laid an egg i don't know what this was but i remember this was fucking weird it had like quite graphic sex positions in and it was like a book i was reading like

young it was about sex you were reading it every fucking night thinking of Fred and George from Harry Potter. Can't wait till I lay my fucking egg. Fred and George. It is mortifying that I fancy them, but you know what? It's out in the public now. It's out in the public domain. I can't deny. Not both.

Just Fred and or George Weasley. Oh, you went two timing. No, no, no, no, no. It's and or George. I just love the cheeky older brother twin thing. Like run a sweet shop. Love it. Cheeky chappy. What was I saying? Mummy laid an egg. and or george i just love the cheeky um older brother twin thing like run a sweet shop love it cheeky chappy what was i saying mommy laid an egg um but it went through all these things like some people say it's like um the kids get baked in the oven some kids say that it's like the

stalks bring them some people say they grow from flowers in the garden but this is what happens and it was these pictures i remember there was one picture it was all the different sex positions and one was them the mom and the dad on a space hopper having sex and i was thinking jesus what is this interesting that feels like it's hitting somewhere in the back of my mind too should i see if i can find it mummy laid an egg everyone right now google mummy mummy laid an egg is kind of honey i shrunk the kids it's the sequel oh my god yeah i found it mummy laid an egg oh yeah it's got proper pictures of like dicks in it oh let's see oh look well you can see it right there they're on on a skateboard having sex they've got balloons they're on a space hopper

oh it's little drawings this is a bit more basic than i thought it was but you know when you were a child you thought that was kind of picasso but the boobs are real i remember thinking like jesus these boobs are real circles and then it's like all the animals come in and animals so i don't think there was ever you know like when people say like the talk the birds and the bees there was never that there was never any um i was never any under any false ideas about what happened it's kind of like it's a thing that mummies and daddies do and then it got more like technical as i grew up rather than kind of it's a stalk brings you and then later you have this big revelation oh my god those penis why did you have a vagina well thank god for the same here and thank god for that imagine like finding out father christmas

isn't real yeah did i tell you about the way that i found out father christmas wasn't real no i must have been really young, probably like five. And I had my suspicions already. Because I'm not a fucking idiot. You're like, this isn't adding up. How is that man getting through a chimney of every house? Yeah, it doesn't add up. No, it's not adding up.

I used to be a little bullshitter that said I saw him. I used to be like, I saw him. We had a convo in my room. Oh my God. Oh, you were, weren't you that's funny like kind of of course you would do that i was like i stroked the reindeer i saw him in my room he took me back to the north pole with him yeah i stayed for two weeks time isn't real there he said do you want to be an elf and i said no i can't possibly leave my family

fucking hell so i had my suspicions that father christmas wasn't real i'd heard the whispers from children like you saying they'd met him and i thought nasty rumors going around yeah no it's not that's not it so i thought okay what can i do here i combined him in kind of contractual law i can write up a little document so i got my little notepad out and i wrote saying and i said dear father christmas and i hid it in only a place that father christmas would know kind of by the fireplace under the tree right where my presents are gonna go right by the mince pie yeah yeah and i kept kept it top secret dear father christmas if you are like i've heard some things no judgment but if you are real sign here and i did a little dotted line that's ridiculous and come christmas fucking morning, I go down, I rush to my document,

no signature on the dotted line. That's bad. And yet, hmm, weird, there's kind of flower in the shape of footsteps by the front door. Interesting. A lot of presents seem to be in the stocking. There's presents here. That's interesting.

Mince pie's got a bite out of it. Mince pie's gone. Interesting. But no signature to be seen. No sign on the dotted line. presents here that's interesting mince pie's got a bite out of it mince pie's gone interesting but no signature to be seen no no sign on the dotted line so i wasn't buying it so you went and asked your mum like what where is the signature i think i kept it to myself for a bit i think i thought i can't fucking trust you lot yeah exactly i'll hold my cards close to my chest something is going on yeah i'm sitting around christmas day they're going, wow, isn't Father Christmas generous? I'm going, yeah.

Sounds like it. He is, isn't he? Unimpressed. I remember when I found out, I was crying, crying, crying. Wow. You were mortified thinking that's so embarrassing. I've told everyone that I've met him. Yeah.

He's not real. The plan's gone really wrong. The plan has backfired. You've been outed. He's been cited. He's been cited. Sorry. That has to get cut off. that's going in that's it that's who's that Seamus about to it's like he's been sighted he's been sighted holding keep your friends close Harry fuck's sake yeah no I remember being like quite upset crying cry cry and then i was like does this mean jesus isn't real my mom was like

no he's never been real oh my god kind of who told you he was real we've never been playing that game like no no that wasn't part of the deal i wonder where you got that information i was like does this mean jesus isn't real she was like no we never said he was babe sorry just thinking about jesus i love how people came for feminist sex and now they're staying for Jesus. Jesus Christ. But I do think, I was thinking this the other day when I knew we would have this chat.

To me, this kind of sums it up. When, listen, a vast population of this earth believe in Christianity, believe in the stories of Jesus Christ, etc, etc. How can there be consent when we have understood our whole scope of sex to be that man was created from a woman that was a virgin because even god's mummy couldn't have sex because she was too pure even if you're making jesus christ it's still a sin to have sex lady lady. So how can you consent? So fucking true.

And fucking Adam and Eve. Even fucking Mary couldn't be a whore. She's literally God's mum. God's mum. I think she's also God's wife. She's kind of God's bitch and also God's mum. She fills a lot of roles. Yeah.

There's a lot of emotional labour going on for Mary. Poor old Mary. She's really pulling her weight so on the polls well when 85 percent of you lot on the polls are saying that sex is better for the other person than it is for you bleak how isn't that bleak it's really bleak also like i i'm you know it's not your fucking fault like well so yeah here's my thing with that so i obviously have been in a relationship for a long time and i feel like i have obviously been changed by being in that relationship for so long so and obviously i'm biased and have my own

experiences and blah blah blah but i always felt like i've confused i remember saying like even at uni like if someone in the house had had sex with someone we'd been out or whatever they'd had sex the guy leaves in the morning and then we would all chat about whatever just happened i would always really be like was the set was it good it was that good sex or like if you know you're going into yeah you know you're going out tonight and you know this is specifically about a heterosexual experience by the way and i'm talking from the female perspective to like go and find a guy to have sex with or whatever. The guy's interested in you.

You're going to have sex soon. I would just always be like, if anything, I just felt like, God, you guys must be lucky that you can just have sex with someone and enjoy it. Because for me, if I kind of knew that I, you know, there were whispers of me and this other guy kind of from a seminar who kind of fancied me or whatever and we started chatting on the night and he came back to mine or whatever I mean it wouldn't even get to that I'd have no interest because I'd know that the sex would be bad for me I just wanted to get to the bottom of it but apparently 85% of you are having bad sex so I don't know well I think the thing is it's like it's about working out how to make it good and I think this is what I mean by I'm not having sex again with a man i'm not having shit sex with a man again like i'm not having it's kind of the trope of male dominance and female passivity that it makes things shit or just even the idea

that good sex for a woman involves female dominance and skipping that like rather than you're getting fucked you're fucking them it's almost like the woman has to ask for what she wants demand what she wants but the man doesn't have to it's just a given that the man is going to come and you're performing for him yeah because the whole way that we learn about sex is you're shown kind of those two an illustration of two people on a space hopper where this woman is just bouncing her vagina up and down on top of him which really for most vaginas is not gonna feel like much it's not gonna be good yeah exactly and it's not how so many women experience their vulvas and vaginas to be good for them is not kind of shoving something in and out as many times as they want to get a baby out of it we have quintuplets yeah i think

i'd love to do an episode on like vagina 101 because i feel like there is so much that is not known about vaginas like the idea that people think that shoving a dick inside your vagina just that is gonna do anything and it's like oh my god i can't come from sex no no you're not having sex though your sexual organ is your clit your sexual organ is not your vagina some women are lucky enough to have, to be having sex, for example, and the back of their clit is being stimulated by their penis inside them.

I can't relate personally, but. Why would you? That's such an anomaly that basically the back, yeah, that's it. The back of your clit, the front wall of your vagina can sometimes be touched. That is the front of your clit, essentially. I think everyone now should Google the anatomy of a clitoris it has legs

it is a whole fucking thing yeah i know for a fact that i mean i've never met another woman who really knows anything about her vulva or vagina you are the only other woman that i know that it would understand what i mean by it's got legs. People don't know what a cervix is. They don't know what a cervix would look like. They don't know how their body changes. They think the vulva, they think the vulva is the vagina. Yeah. They'll be like, my vagina's out. This is why we need to talk about this, guys. If you're just, if you're just standing somewhere naked, unless you are a mutant. Unless you are spread eagle. You cannot see your vagina. Even unless you are spread eagle you cannot see your vagina even if you were spread eagle you'd have to be to be honest oh yeah you'd have to be pulled open your vagina

is literally the thing that that's what you put a tampon into that's what you put a penis into that's where blood comes out and a baby comes out the vaginal tunnel you're you're talking about your vulva guys and so when so many women are told to essentially taught to know nothing about their vulvas how would a 15 year old boy when when that 15 year old girl and boy are having sex for the first time of course and he's just kind of bouncing around all over the place and he's watched porn so he's seen someone some well i mean you guys know our thoughts on porn and they're watching a dick go very fast in and out of a vagina and the girl is loving it

she's absolutely loving it of course they think that's real but it's not real that is not what's happening so when i was thinking about sort of feminist sex i was thinking a little bit about film i was thinking about how female desire is structured on screen and how that has fed into how we understand our own desires and understand our own sexuality as women because it's been mirrored in this way that we can see within our own experiences and we're talking about twilight and i think you can really see this in twilight so much oh my god in the way that it's like a man desires to possess an object and a woman desires to be possessed as the object and to perform as the object

so there's a film theorist that i really love and if you you may know her she's called laura mulvey and i wanted to quote her because she um has this whole idea about women on screen so i'm wanting to quote her i mean i always fucking do this as in i did this with fucking roxane gay oh yeah word for word but we can't butcher oh i could never butcher and laura mulvey's stance so she's got um if you studied film at uni, you will 100% know Laura Mulvey because she's got a big essay, I guess, called Visual and Other Pleasures.

But so she says, in a world ordered by sexual imbalance, pleasure in looking has been split between active male and passive female. The determining gaze projects its fantasy onto the female form, which is styled accordingly. In their traditional exhibitionist role women are simultaneously looked at and displayed with their appearance coded for

strong visual and erotic impact so that they can be said to connote a to be looked at nurse and this idea of like to be looked at nurse i think is so prominent in porn and the way that women have sex we said it on an early episode i can't remember which like are you having sex to have sex are you having sex for a camera that isn't in the room yeah you're performing like where's the camera exactly and it's like men watch the woman and the woman watches herself being watched by the man yeah it's this really weird thing where the woman is constantly performing and if you've ever faked an orgasm this is you you are performing this kind of to be looked atness and you exist to be observed and looked at and i think it's a spectacle so painful like it's such a sad aspect of what we've done to female sexuality it's a performance especially when so much of what women can look like is so strict and then on top of that women can only be sexualized in the sense that i

mean everyone can understand the objectification of the female body in the way that i've seen even people say and i completely agree that they're like am i gay or what because i would never find a man attractive in the way that i would understand a woman's beauty and it's just like well probably you've lived in a patriarchal society for so long that you can understand women to be sexualized in a way that you would never look at a little penis and think that's sexy absolutely not no never but you look at boobs and you think yeah that's sexy yeah because we understand sexuality through female performance yeah and through female objectification and how there's almost a desire within female sexuality under patriarchal law essentially that allows women to desire being objectified

you desire to be the pretty object that of everyone's desire well completely you don't desire to possess you desire to be possessed well completely and so then how can you have consent when so what you're a 16 year old girl and you're how can you have consent when so what you're a 16 year old girl and you're consenting to being observed is that what you're consenting to because you're not consenting to sex yeah what are you consenting to this is also the bit that gets me about modern dating and modern sex that just it just rubs me the wrong way let's say um good pun let's say it but i'm i once had a friend who after every joke she used to swear that she didn't do this but she used to say a joke and then she used to say ha ha boom boom oh my god and then we used to say you used to do that you

used to go ha ha boom boom and she was like i never said that no i know that is bad it's basil brush yeah full basil brush ha ha boom boom that's really bad it's kind of making me die I never said that. No, I know. That is bad. It's Basil Brush. Yeah, full Basil Brush. Ha ha, bum bum. That's really bad. It's kind of making me die thinking about it. It rubs me the wrong way. Ha ha, bum bum. You were saying something in particular rubs you in the wrong way,

but you didn't tell us what yet. So for example, in the idea that men get more out of sex than women do. So you have a one night stand. Two equal parties, we're calling them in big quotes come forward a man and a woman and they have sex and this is ignoring race class all of the other things that play in there's a man a woman equal parties as we're calling them they have sex it's not just what happens in that moment it's the entire aftermath of that that constructs this as

unequal as unbalanced and not fair because it's the man goes home and says oh yeah i fucked this girl gets the status the ego he comes on the night all of that everything that happens and the woman goes home um generally speaking and i've seen it happen and i've done it myself and you're waiting for a text acas powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay.

I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part.

Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com you're waiting for further validation and it's that you've entered this contract where the man gets to come for the understanding that then he will text you later you're what are you selling what are you selling and what are you buying this is a transaction that isn't fair completely that is interesting because when i knew we were doing this episode the other day i was thinking about well i was thinking about even just the phrase one night stand and when i so i looked it up and i thought it was really interesting because let me actually read it word for word a one night stand is a single sexual

encounter and then it goes on in which there is an expectation that there shall be no further relations between the sexual participants and that is not the reality no that is not what people are doing you're going into it even though it's never been said you are going into it with the expectation or at least the hope and desire that kind of you're having sex with him on fr at least by kind of Wednesday Thursday he will have text you do you think he'll message me this is why I find um casual sex to be manipulative because I've seen people do it and again I'll say I've done it myself where you you write a script yeah yeah you write the script but also so you write the script of they'll text you by Wednesday and then they haven't texted by Wednesday but they're thinking they might text you by Thursday

or they they're thinking they might not text you at all and you're thinking oh but I kind of want him to come to this party maybe he'll be there blah blah blah but also I find it manipulative because false intimacy there is no difference so for me I would rather it was just be sex that is it yeah for example if I'm if I'm entering a one-night stand that is what you expect it to be however after you've had sex I find it manipulative on a one-night stand for them to be kind of playing with your hair rubbing your back have a little cuddle cuddle cuddle times that is fake intimacy and that's to be honest mimicking love which i find to be incredibly strange with someone that i have entered the agree the agreement with we're never

going to speak again well it's also completely gross in the sense that he wasn't doing that for his ex-girlfriend he He was treating her like shit. But he needs to keep you kind of in his room for the next eight hours because he might be able to sex with you in the morning. Yeah, it's really bleak. It's almost a bit performative and a bit almost fake. You're performing intimacy with someone. Yeah, because people don't have the emotional scope to differentiate between lust and love. They don't know how to

perform sex without kind of um stroking your hair even though they can't fucking stand you and they're not interested you in the slightest i just think it's like i need to know what you voted before i have sex with you well i was thinking that so i'm gonna have to talk about it the fall i do want to do i want to do a full-on episode essentially on like misogyny in film 50 shades of gray for example i want to do an episode on misogyny it's like uh we've done a few on those yeah but i would i i'm so um this is kind of at the top of my brain every morning at the moment but anyway i was thinking when watching the fall which is a netflix morning at the moment but anyway I was thinking when watching The Fall. Which is a Netflix show?

Show which you have to watch. I'm going to. And if if Sefi's gonna watch it we're gonna do an episode on it so you have to watch it in preparation for the episode. I've never cared about anything more. Basically Erin watched it and she fell in love and I mean hard in love and she sometimes does this where I've only seen this once before with Seth Rogen. It's a bad habit. It's a bad habit. I've fallen, to be honest, in equal parts, I've fallen in love with Jamie Dornan and Gillian Anderson. Nice. I get it. Yeah, I get that. I can't get enough.

Anyway, the fall. Basically, this guy has a full-on wife and kids, but he also murders women. And so I was thinking about how when this woman consented to marrying this guy, when this woman every now and then is consenting to having sex with this guy who is her husband, how can it really be consent? Because essentially he's living, yeah, he's living this double life.

I didn't consent to have sex with a rapist. Exactly that. And that's the same thing as what's the word? Stealthing as well. It's like I consented to have sex with you under this premise and now the premise has been changed. I never consented. And also I think the law was changed quite recently, like maybe in the eighties. This is completely off the top of my head. I think my mum said this, the law changed recently, but recent to my mum, God knows,

that it was like now to have sex with your partner who has cheated on you and you don't know they've cheated on you is rape yeah is this correct up until 1994 a husband could rape his wife and it was legal because she was bound to have sex with him 1994 our parents could have been trying for us in 94 1994 two years before our birth we were born in 96 that's crazy so basically this is why the image of consent that we have of if two people say yes and they're both over the age of 16 it's consensual that's not true that isn't true like how can we be walking around saying that that makes perfect sense it relies on everybody being equal in this society and everyone having equal power yeah and it relies

also on everyone having the same understanding of sex for example when half the kids in school don't know literally don't know what sex is and don't know what their bodies do and i always say can sit for an hour and get acrylic put on their fingernails can sit and put their contact lenses in in the morning and touch their eyeballs but won't touch their cervix because they don't know what it is that's the society that i'm looking around i'm unimpressed i'm so unimpressed it's not impressive it's a disaster there's almost like I remember there used to be like a level of cuteness potentially of like girls that like oh my god I don't even know what my vagina does like oh

like vaginas and it's like guys this it this has to stop that's not cute I'm honestly just rolled my eyes straight into next week's episode. I'm fucking out of here. Right into next Tuesday. But is there, did you experience that? Girls that be like, oh my God, I would never touch my vagina. I still experience it. Girls that wouldn't put a tampon in without an applicator. Not because it's easier, but because it's like, oh my God, I don't want to touch my vagina.

So are you joking? Are you joking? I fully find it exhausting. But you're literally gonna put a cotton bud inside your ear hole. You're literally gonna, you're gonna touch your eyeball with your own fingernails.

Like you're gonna do so many things and yet your poor little vagina hasn't felt human touch in years. The cold plastic of a tampon applicator is all it gets. Yeah. It's so sad. sad i think but also you're gonna get let yourself a little 14 year old girl get fingered at a party by ratty mcgee but you're scared of your clit yeah i'm confused yeah hopefully we start waking up younger oh that's nice wake up younger well in the sense that it was quite a trend to be kind of 15 and be like

oh my god vagina like oh they're just so trend to be kind of 15 and be like oh my god vagina like oh they're just so vaginas are just so ugly blah blah oh my god that was such a thing vaginas are so ugly vaginas are so ugly stop hating yourself you freak why do you hate yourself stop hating yourself everyone else is gonna hate you you can't hate you too who told you that who told you you're ugly but feminist sex do you think you have feminist sex I think we can think about it in two ways I think we can think about the concept of feminist sex and then the kind of verb the action to participate in feminist sex and I think to participate in yes feminist sex I do conceptually can feminist sex or can sex be feminist in this world currently probably not no but in my kind of own relationships

and in my own life i think i'm pretty far along on the spectrum in terms of making as feminist as possible and what do we mean by feminist are we saying that that means that women are getting the equal amount as the men are getting the women are not being i think it's where the woman is not disempowered in her own sexuality because we were playing a bit of a game on the phone the other day when we were coming up with this when i phoned you saying never to have sex again it's a it's i mean i also don't agree with myself but i don't agree with myself the second i stopped talking i instantly think yeah i don't agree with that bitch there we go exactly i don't agree with anything i've said for the past 30 weeks on this podcast everything i just said and yeah everything

i just said just it's all outdated already. We were playing a fun game on the phone where we were saying. We are fucking lunatics. Yeah. This is really mad. And then you said, let's play on the podcast. And I forgot about it up until now, but I think we should play the game. We were saying we were coming up with couples and we were saying, do we think they have

feminist sex? We were saying who gets more out of the sex? Who gets more out of the sex? Who gets more out of the sex? It's my second favourite game that we do. Second to the most embarrassing ringtone. I heard the most embarrassing ringtone. So, for example, we have a game that's... We spoke about this once on the pilot season, I think.

But what is the most embarrassing ringtone? Like, for example, you're sat in, like, a seminar. You're sat in a meeting. And this song plays phone goes off and it's a song not just fucking marimba a song i used to say the most embarrassing song is mama do the hump mama do the hump that's bad that's a bad one mama won't you please let me do the hump i thought of one the other day it was this one it goes it's the intros that you want to be bad and this intro is quite bad it's sort of sound effect and then it goes so many girls in here where do

i begin i've seen this one i'm about to go in yeah and that's where them girls at girls at bad ringtone yeah that's really bad i heard one well we said this in a podcast a few days ago that i think the most embarrassing thing a few weeks ago the most embarrassing thing that you could say on a date and i still think i think this would be an embarrassing ringtone too is that advert that's like i want some crusher oh lovely crusher fucking hell it's bad but the one i heard the other day that someone reminded me of i think this is bad because it's so outdated and people used to think this was so funny.

I think it would be really embarrassing. I just forgot all about this and it hit a spot in my head. Your phone starts ringing, you're in a meeting and it's, spider pig, spider pig does whatever a spider pig does. Awful. Because that's like, oh, that's bad. Like, it's really like,

why was that funny at the time? It's really been eradicated from the world for like nine years. It's like, does he swim? No, we can't use a pig. It's like, oh, that's bad. No, that's bad. I thought about that.

That would be a bad one. Almost, we should upgrade this game into, it's not about um phone ringtones anymore it's what's an embarrassing podcast intro oh that's bad spider pig is a bad podcast intro a bad an embarrassing podcast intro is one where you reference stephen mulhern in the first thing. Oh, I can't say. Which is us. Yeah, if you haven't listened to the last episode, consider yourself lucky.

You should take part in this game. Send us screenshots of what you think would be an embarrassing song. Please. Because I die at any song. Yeah, any song is bad. When you think of it being a ringtone in a seminar, any fucking song is bad.

One that you said that absolutely killed me when we're playing this game really back in the day like a year ago this one kills me because it's about it's all about the intro but you said it was like do you want to build a snowman but if you think about the intro of it it goes like this not elsa dun dun dun elsa that's that's awful that's fucking bad that's like you just let it ring you look around confused elsa you cannot answer you cannot let it be known that it's yours let's play the game of who gets more out of sex yes so daenerys and jon snow who gets more out of the sex did we say it was equal i think it's daenerys gets more out of the sex i think it's pretty equal i think he's so in love with her um troy and gabriella

troy's getting more from troy's coming in two seconds gabriella's like vaginas are so ugly gabriella's lying it's like inevitable gabriella is lying there for sure she's not doing a thing no no but i don't think she's lying there i think she's putting on a show thing is sharpay's not lying there she's loving it it's still a performance for sharpay yeah sharpay's like i want fabulous i want my clit rub like this i want you to kiss me like this fabulous and nothing less she's like troy's like when i hear my favorite song i know we belong fuck's sake i love what's the bit when he says above a noise a single voice above noise what about um harry and cho harry and cho chang harry and cho i think

cho might get more out of it i would hope she would well i hope it's equal but i think maybe cho's getting more out of it there but cho and cedric cedric's getting more yeah i agree cedric's not caring for sure i agree but it's kind of in any instance where we're choosing essentially a minor and talking about their sex life by the way that's what's happening um i think the teenage girls are getting less and i'm hoping that's changing over time but i just think realistically looking back on when we were teenagers and my friends when they were teenagers etc i know exactly what the sex was like and it wasn't really sex it was rape yeah absolutely well that was what we were saying when we first started having this conversation i was like no this has to be on the podcast yeah was essentially we were talking about sex quote unquote sex and we were

saying okay well if they had sex they had sex whatever but it wasn't sex quote unquote sex and we were saying okay well if they had sex they had sex whatever but it wasn't sex it was rape and we were saying she's getting fucking raped she's getting raped she's getting raped god we're mental which makes us sound nuts we do sound mental and we're not using the word rape lightly but it's actually the opposite of using the word rape lightly it's actually the way that we under emphasize using the word sex quite heavily yeah exactly we've we've um catastrophized the word rape so much so that we've become so sensitive to it and it holds such a stigma that actually it's a lot more common than we allow it to be the the way that i'm seeing people go out and have quote-unquote sex and not enjoy it and then hearing

all the details about it the following day yeah it's like that wasn't sex yeah because also it's like we're not just i promise as we made a game but we're not just looking around our lives going you're not having good sex you're being raped pointing fingers we actually know exactly what's happening in these situations and we've got polls we've got the and we've got the statistics to prove it something i wasn't surprised by but i still did find it interesting disappointed but not surprised was everyone essentially saying all their stories about the bad sex that they've had to experience and truly we are sorry i loved well i didn't love this i hate to hear it but i loved this one i thought it was interesting they said my first literally had to stop halfway through every time and jack off to finish it's funny because we don't say that in england jack off

jack off it's a bit like um you're a jerk why is it reminding me of donkey from shrek oh because he's a jackass why am i getting donkey yeah but interesting because he's a donkey, but that doesn't mean he's a jack off. That means you've linked jackass and then what? To jackass? Yeah. What? I don't know why I just,

when you said jack off, I got a huge image of donkey from Shrek. What the fuck? That's quite disgusting. That's really weird. I was like, why am I thinking of him right now? It's him and dragon. She's getting more from the sex.

Dragon is getting more out of the sex than donkey than donkey that's for certain and what about shrek and fiona shrek shrek's absolutely drained fiona for all she's bloody worth i think so bleak i hate that in that disgusting swamp it must stink it must fucking reek in there there's that wolf in their bed he's like sorry um but 100 percent um dragon is having feminist sex yeah i fucking hope so burn the place down if not yeah also didn't dragon wait dragon probably hasn't had sex in like kind of 50 years maybe even probably fucking centuries she was extinct they um have about 10 million kids as well. They do, yeah.

They're really cute. They're like half donkey. Because he went in and out, in and out 10 million times. In and out a million times. Who would do such a thing? Right. So they said, my first literally had to stop halfway through every time

and jack off to finish because he was so used to porn. Also never went down on me ever. Clown me slept with this man for two years. Why? Validating at its very worst. Clown emoji. I love it when our phrases get used back at us. Yeah, same.

It's like, wait, I am a real person. Existential crisis over. I'm not dissociating anymore because people know me. I am a worthwhile human being. Someone said it on a poll once. But how scarring is that? That's horrific. So halfway through this, I'm assuming, I mean, they said,

my first literally had two blah, blah, blah. So I'm assuming you mean the first person you had sex with is pulling out halfway through. And wanking. Please don't tell me he's fucking coming all over you that's the last thing i need to hear don't give me that news i can't handle it today i'm in a fragile fucking state i've been worn down by this bloody thing they don't want to use a fucking tampon let alone have proper sex 100 he's coming all over her boobs. 100% that's happening. And she's making noises and pulling faces when he does. She's like, oh my God.

Oh, this makes me feel sick, guys. This world is so bad. Like, I'm not even joking anymore. This world is cruel. I was saying this morning on the phone to Erin, it's like, it's not even called our phone call, so I'm fucking weird. We were talking and I was like,

it's not even like a meme. Like, I hate it here. It's like, I keep saying recently, this place is bad. Yeah. this place that we found ourselves in this place stinks worse than shrek swamp shrek's little swamp get out of my swamp well anyway i wanted to raise that point because as we've said on and on this whole time are you really having sex or what and i just to me i just feel like it's such a thing of like, okay, are you enjoying rough sex with your boyfriend or are you indulging his childhood trauma

and perverse desires? Yeah. Are you enjoying this crazy thing where you're being stood up and strapped over the head and all of this and smacked around the face? And choked. Because you enjoy it and choked. And maybe you do.

Are you doing this because you enjoy it or... Are you enjoying him enjoying it? Because he has some repressed memories and trauma and understandings of the patriarchy and domination over women that he hasn't unpacked and he's just dumping it out on top of you literally on you in the form of fucking cum yeah i mean if you listen to our porn episode you know our views on porn that it is aesthetically disgusting like it's dying worrying we had we said i don't know if we said this in the podcast but we said that porn hadn't been shot since 2011 because they're all wearing kind of galaxy print t-shirts and like french tip nails and all of the boys have frosted tips it's the weirdest aesthetic i've ever seen in my

life um but also i mean we spoke a bit about balessa how we me and erin had a weird day of our lives where we watched porn together for from morning till night honestly from the sun rising to setting we watched it all day we were sat essentially in the kitchen pulled up porn on my phone it was like 10 a.m we were porn, watching porn, watching porn. And then I looked at the time and it was quarter to four. Yeah, it's worrying. Oh, fucking hell. And we thought this can't be the day we need to go and get ice cream right now. Yeah, and we did. I also really want to explain our ice cream shop thing because we spoke about this in the pilot season. Yeah. But basically me and Erin have this saying where we say like... It's a metaphor metaphor of sorts it's a clever little metaphor

it basically our theory is that you cannot be sad in an ice cream shop you can't be sad when you're like in the line about to pick out kind of your favorite flavor of ice cream from your favorite ice cream place it's impossible and i put you to the test of being sad in an ice cream shop so that's when we say we're going to get ice cream whatever we mean we're going to stand in that line get ice cream and it's just like you can't you can't be sad in an ice cream shop it's just it's actually specifically from boho gelato in brighton i think we should say yeah you it's a rule of life it's actually like gravity or something it's like you can't be sad in an ice cream shop it's um a law of physics yeah but yeah we watch porn all day. Fucking hell. Oh, Jesus Christ.

No sponsor for this episode, surprisingly. This is not sponsored by anyone because no one wants to put their name on us. Oh yeah, and Balessa. We went on to balessa.com and we... So if you haven't heard of Balessa, it's a porn website made for women by women, supposedly. But if this is the closest we can get to feminist porn.

I was going to say we ain't buying it, but also I think they follow us. So I don't want to be rude. Like also maybe they should sponsor us. No, I think it's a great concept. But bad execution. Hey, this episode is sponsored by Balessa. Bad. Great concept. Bad execution. Hey, this episode is sponsored by Melissa. Great concept, bad execution. Imagine.

Oh, fucking hell. We're burning bridges before we built them. We are burning bridges. But to be honest, it is the truth. There are women screaming their nuts off with war. Like from war. Someone ramming their dick up their ass they're literally screeching screeching screeching the clit hasn't been touched in a second or if it is it's kind of being honestly by accident he knocked it by accident no it's being like drilled into

it's it's not sex like this what i'm watching right now does not reflect sex let alone feminist sex yeah no no no you've got it wrong you read the room wrong what i hated so much about balessa is they have categories so we clicked like hot guy or whatever but they all look like fucking like tony hawk nicky clark the hairdresser yeah exactly that is really bad it's the opposite of sex for me it's not intimate it's always brightly lit in a kitchen it's the opposite of intimate sex um my understanding of feminist sex and the way that i have sex would be a meaningful intimacy it's an idea of um a balance but that's not what i'm seeing there is no element of balance here it's a girl screaming her head off and a man whose head has been cut off mike was out

skied out of the shot he hasn't said a word all day he's just you might get a grunt he could have any old accent hiding under there we literally don't know we have no hints about where he's from he's got some weird tattoos he might have like kind of a swastika tattoo or something it's just like i can't bear this i can't look at this for another second yeah absolutely yeah no it's not it's not um it's the op i honestly think porn is the antithesis of sex yeah but unfortunately as well it's not just like okay porn is the antithesis of sex and it ends there it's like no everyone's porn everyone's sex that they're having now is shaped by fucking porn. Yeah. So it's like, it's not just like, oh, porn is bad.

That's a shame. Well, that, you know, no need to worry about it then. It's like, no, even if you don't watch porn, you can't escape it because the person you're having sex with watches porn kind of seven times a week. It doesn't matter whether you think porn looks ugly, which we, oh, believe me, we do. It's every single person that you're going to have sex with has watched that and has internalized that and has understood and now will embody it with you and has internalized female desire as that is what they see reflected on the

screen which is not accurate and this is why sex education is fucked not the show the show's great jillian anderson making another iconic appearance everyone watched the show i mean that is great sex education but formal sex education is fucked because whilst the men learn about pleasure the women learn about how to manage their periods no no no no no honey you got it wrong yeah all of my teachers you got it wrong yeah you read it wrong i mean the fact that sex education is coming from teachers who i have a large distrust for anyway. Well, I can only imagine what their sex life is like. They're hardly sex gurus in my mind. It's like Mrs. Thingy.

Well, she's married to Mr. Thingy and he definitely does not have good sex. He's definitely getting more out of the sex than she is. Did you have back in school the undertone of the teachers thinking you're a bit of a whore when they're talking to you about sex don't you think female teachers doing sex education had a bit of a kind of like oh what you're gonna go and you know have a have you know have sex are you oh i remember this was one phrase that was definitely used in my sex education like later in life kind of like year 10 11 um them being like look well it might just be like a bike shed bonk it might be a bike shed bonk and it's a bit like you really think the worst about like you really

think we're meeting up behind the bank the bike shed oh you can't stand us but then when you see me by the bike shed smoking you go get out of the bike sheds but you told me i could have sex in the bike shed a minute ago and now you're angry at me even standing here you nutter i remember a girl we were in secondary school and she asked they had like a stack of condoms and she asked for the condoms like asked for one or something and the teacher like was annoyed with her but it's like well if if they're there not to give out then for what they're just her personal collection she's like and i have this time and i have this type what the fuck isn't it crazy yeah there's there's definitely an element of shame that goes on judging there were so many weird things said um but also we would just take the piss like i remember we had

the anonymous question box go around same thing in year five as we had in year like 11 and we just would take the piss because the teacher couldn't handle it and i remember writing down what's your favorite sex position did she answer we don't even answer that on the podcast you've asked us that a few times we don't answer sephie doesn't want to answer i'm like it's too far i couldn't possibly it's too too graphic beep beep this is persephone from the future editing this and censoring this bit because erin says something inappropriate i just said something that's been vetoed hard big time cut i might beep that yeah yeah beep it it's either getting beeped or cut so you're lucky if you even heard the beep

so i was just looking through the question box and i mean there were so many amazing things like it just blows my mind every time like the things that people say are just so fucking stunning and i know it's become a bit of a meme that we say stunning about everything but to be honest as much as i say the world is fucking awful the world is very stunning as well the world is stunning because you lot are here sending us really cute messages there's just quite a lot of stunning things in the world like the thought that like i don't know just the world is stunning but it's also the worst place i've ever been so someone said i've done sex magic that made me feel pretty powerful but I love when people write magic with a k yeah so I saw that earlier yeah it takes magic from Harry Potter to like Aleister Crowley

whatever like it takes it to like the occult like it's kind of suddenly I need to be summoning demons yeah yeah so sex magic have you ever heard of that i've heard of it can't say i've ever done it same i've heard of it but never done it but my favorite thing about magic with a k or like my favorite thing with this kind of i just think of it more as like i honestly think right now guarantee by the time this podcast comes out i'm shaking my head like no disagree but by the second we stop recording i'm already shaking my head yeah yeah i feel like we kind of touched on this not about sex but about kind of making a cup of tea or something that the rituals of life are kind of so stunning the only good thing in the world yeah and

it's kind of like if you want to think of your cup of tea as your spell or sex as your spell oh i'm so down i love it wow yeah but i've not i'm not consciously entering myself into i'm not saying to jack should we do sex magic tonight but i do think that there is like a spiritual 100 is a magical element yeah i completely agree how can there not be a magical element yeah or am i getting too woohoo no i agree let me google sex magic my search history is already weird so i might as well do it are you doing sex magic these days suffy no i'm not but i wish i was i need to know more about it okay so i've wikipedia'd it wikipedia'd as a as a verb as a verb sex magic sometimes spelled sex magic with a k is any type of sexual activity used in magical ritualistic

or otherwise religious or spiritual pursuits one practice of sex magic is using sexual arousal or orgasm with visualization of a desired result manifest by sex magicians sex magician that's funny that's my new identity i don't love the word magician because it makes you think of a black stick with white ends oh and a top hat and a box that you chop people in half it reminds me of the tarot card the magician i like that sex magician but magicians a little bit am i darren brown yeah but even were even darren brown has like a fuckable vibe but a classic old school party magician rabbit out of a hat it's a bad vibe it's not good i like the i like the sentiment well i think sex can be self

care if you're having feminist sex for example for sure or it can be self-harm if you're not very true if you're having feminist sex where i liked what someone else said they said i i can't remember what i said the prompt was something about like do you believe that we can have feminist sex for example and they said do you mean sex without feeling like i'm a hole and it's like yeah that's to be honest that's exactly what i meant yeah stunning couldn't have said it better myself this is the thing this is why i think it's more feminist sex to me is more than asking for what you want being dominant because men don't have to actively do that that's just what happens the fact that feminist sex for us is not feeling like a whole yeah it shouldn't even be that it should

be that should be normal sex and feminist sex should be beyond empowering the fact that feminist sex is not feeling like a whole is so depressing i agree i think it's really jarring that we have worked to get to this point where we feel like we're the protagonists in our own lives despite the patriarchy etc etc you live your life as the main character until you're having sex and suddenly you're not the protagonist anymore you're the extra you're the side character in your own experience this is the scene has anyone seen the film the holiday starring cameron diaz jude lord jack black and kate winslet star-studded cast truly truly i can't believe i got that all in one as well there is a scene in this where kate winslet meets this old man

and he is like an oscar winning kind of old man and he has loads and oscars and he he says in this you're the leading lady but you're acting like the best friend yeah and she says i should be the leading lady of my own life for christ's sake or something like that but i think it's so fucking true and now there's this whole narrative like you've got to romanticize your life on tiktok and all of this and i think it is true of course you don't want to take that too far and start romanticizing your life because before you know it you're living in skins and you are having a bad bad time yeah you're kind of kurt cabane yeah you're romanticizing misery um but there is an element of in sex you 100 should be the priority his desire

of this man that is the priority in every other element of life especially on a one-night stand who he is just going to essentially treat you as a whole and if you're a man listening saying no no it's not true please just listen to the fact that what 93 of people on our poll said that that's how they feel so your experience kind of is irrelevant here because 93 of people feel that that is the opposite yeah you should be prioritizing yourself you should be romanticizing that situation or not being in it i completely agree you need to either be the priority or not be in it i completely i completely completely completely agree couldn't agree more because what you're gonna lie there get fucked and leave and with the vague promise that he might take you

out for a drink in a week's time even that would be pretty crazy yeah and it's not good that's not good enough yeah it's not good enough i think that's for the promise then that he'll fuck you that night and it'll be horrific and or not even horrific fine and then you might go to go for dinner with him and he'll fuck you again it's just like what is this weird what what are you trading what is this trade it's not a fair trade it's like i'm every week i'm giving you a plate of dinner and you're giving me one p for every time plate of dinner one p plate of dinner one p it's just like not it's not a fair trade completely we write about this invalidating we do yeah because everything comes down to feeling like you can settle for scrappy dues it's actually not good

enough why is that good enough for you because you don't value yourself yeah it shouldn't be good enough for you no but i feel like we've scratched the surface of this there's so much more to say like i know we haven't even talked about like masturbation instead of talking about shrek but it's kind of look who knows why didn't we get anything done this episode it's like we spoke about fucking spider pig for 10 minutes does whatever spider pig does this is the thing with these episodes you are just gonna i don't know why i'm prefacing it as if it's like, you are going to get this. This is what you get week after week is God knows what.

Yeah, who knows where they go? There's so much more to be said. As usual, there's go read Mummy Laid an Egg. It tells you everything you need to know. Everything you need to know is in that book, guys. It's in that book. Oh, God. Genuinely.

I don't know why I'm plugging validating this episode, but I think it's because it's in that book oh god genuinely i don't know why i'm plugging validating this this episode but everything i think it's because it's so relevant um everything you do need to know is in validating it's on our website links in our bio blah blah blah and it stands orbs what can i even say thanks so much for listening thanks for your gorgeous messages and thoughts on sex and just on us in general just on life always appreciated honestly more than you can ever know more than you will ever know reviews reviews reviews you know the whole spiel we're about to do we love the reviews yeah reviews reviews snooze snooze snooze snooze you lose give us reviews where i'm gonna go and watch blues clues if anyone remembers blues clues i do

right that was a poem blues clues now apparently he doesn't have a notepad anymore. He has an iPad, I think. That's weird. That's what he gets his clues on, yeah. That's cool. Wait, I didn't know it was still going. I might be making that up, but I think it's true. I didn't know it was still going.

God, it's a hit. Yeah, I think so. They had a hit on their hands. I thought it was just like a little show. Yeah, smash it in. Love that. So I'm going to go watch Blue's Clues now. See you in the ice cream shop.

Oh, can't wait. See you there.