Goes Without Saying - "i hate men": go boys give us nothing

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

it's your problematic faves here, sephy and wing! prepare to be screaming at us through your headphones because a lot goes unsaid in this controversial episode! we're discussing "men are trash", and whether it's progressive, productive, or completely pointless. come indulge in some feminist fury with us in this triggering ep of goes without saying. essentially, (and we can't stress this enough) f*ck the patriarchy.join the conversation every monday. speak your mind on instagram! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Welcome back to another episode of Goes Without Saying. If you're new here, it's not welcome back at all. It's a good luck and get ready for a really bizarre and i mean the biggest conversation we've had in weeks right the most triggering thing i've ever experienced yeah i'm gonna brief you by saying this is not an a-level politics lecture this is not literature unpack seminar 01 for dummies this is two friends having a laugh being ridiculous being offensive being problematic getting cancelled if you're in for that stay tuned

if you're scared of that you suck go fuck yourself i think this is a good episode and i think you'll really enjoy it and i hope you do and i hope you're having a great day. Same. Ditto to all of that, you know. Okay, first of all, school time. Have you done your homework, Missy? I have completed my homework. Yeah, have you? I have, kind of. This is actually giving me flashbacks.

I know on your face that you haven't done it. So you're getting a detention. Were you good with homework at school? No. No, neither. Absolutely not. Never did it. I was always like, I forgot it. it so you're getting a detention were you good with homework at school no no neither absolutely not never did it i was always like i forgot it and they'd i don't know why i thought they believed i forgot it like half the class but i forgot it so dumb i used to do quite bizarre things quite manipulative actually real little libra vibe i used to kind of walk over and like walk over to the pile or i'd like take the persons next to me yeah and I'd be like you've lost my homework sad face to the teacher kind of make them feel really awful

gaslighting yeah honestly I used to like start crying a lot to get out of things like I used to cry to get out of pee and I was always kind of that kid that was like I'm really sorry but I don't have my homework sort of like you didn't do my homework. So I'm like, you didn't do it. You watched Made in Chelsea last night. You didn't do it on purpose. You knew this would happen. Well, if you're listening to this confused, which you probably are anyway.

Yeah. But the homework this week, what we said last week was based on the convo about connection and isolation and loneliness. We would all reach out, send a text that we've been meaning to text for a long time. Send a text that we've been meaning to text for a long time send a text that we've been meaning to sext i said which it's fine if you did that but that's not what i meant send that sext send that nude you can do it guys yeah and just kind of text someone message someone that you've been putting off for a while how did yours go well i

thought we were gonna do yours first because i feel like you haven't done it okay let's do mine first so i thought straight away i know exactly who i'm gonna message i love that who was it it was my cousin i thought my cousin is literally he's like the love of my life you'd never know because i don't i don't ever talk to him like kind of he'll message me and i'll reply like two months later like i'm bad i'm i'm a real wanker anyway so i was like i know straight away who i'm gonna i'm gonna message him i know that he moved recently moving during covid that's stressful etc i'm gonna message him i'm gonna be really really nice i also need you to talk to him because doesn't he have the context of a tarot reader that i want to meet he does yeah he does you're so right he's the one who kind of would walk into

someone's house and be like look in the cupboard and kind of sit with it for half an hour like dispelling the spirit the darkness wow yeah so he's cool you can tell why i love him yeah i'm like i mean i would hope i would love him anyway but so i was like i know straight away who i'm gonna message and then like monday happened and then tuesday happened i agree same i did mine yesterday yeah and then Tuesday happened. I agree. Same, I did mine yesterday. Yeah, and then I didn't, look, he wasn't who I messaged in the end. I still haven't messaged him. Kind of 10 minutes before we like started recording this, I was like, fuck, should I quickly message him now?

And I was like, fuck it. I'll just message him after this. And I promise I will. I did message somebody else though last night. Very nice. I messaged my friend and I said, hey, how's it going? You know, just thinking of you. I'm just still else though last night. Very nice. I messaged my friend and I said, hey, how's it going? You know, just thinking of you.

I'm still awaiting the response. Same, same. That's the gutting bit. If you spend this whole time putting the thing in and then you get nothing back. Nothing back. Yeah. How did yours go then?

Take it away. Because you sent quite a heartfelt message, right? I sent a heartfelt message, but I had quite grand plans, I would say well you would wouldn't you capricorn yeah i set high expectations and this is gonna be the best message of all time yeah but i was like okay i'm gonna walk to someone's house and put a letter through their door this is what i knew i was competing with by the way this is why i was putting off messaging my cousin because i just thought fuck it's never gonna be good enough yeah but also that's what i knew i was competing against and would never

succeed to my grand plans okay i'm gonna write a letter go to someone's house put it through their letterbox beautiful didn't do any of that again monday came tuesday came wednesday came thursday came today it's thursday it's nine in the morning i thought fuck i haven't done anything i'll throw it back to the morning i was walking my my dog, a dog, I was going to say, my dog, Otso. Yesterday morning. And I was walking him around the town yesterday morning and I was listening to music. On through my headphones came a song by a YouTuber that I love. There is a YouTuber slash kind of Instagram person that I've been following, I realised, for five years of my life. She's also a musician. She's actually really cool. She's from Vancouver.

Her name is Hayley Blaze. If anyone listens to her, I don't know. I just realized that I have, I literally consume so much content from her over the years, have literally been listening to her music, which I really like. Oh, I love where this is going.

Oh, well, no wonder you're awaiting a response. Sorry, carry on, carry on. Like she hasn't got back to me. I messaged Oprah Winfrey. No, because she's not like, she hasn't got back to me. I messaged Oprah Winfrey. No, because she's not like, she hasn't got like millions of subscribers. I think I'm on her Instagram now. She's got 30,000 followers.

I'm thinking, okay, come on, Hayley. And I really love her. Like, I really feel like I know her. She's in a very kind of arty world. Like I really love her kind of, her whole vibe is very kind of like, I guess it's quite indie, but it's quite cool. And I think having this podcast has made me realise that i consume a lot of content for free i've been watching her

for four years before i went to uni so maybe even five years and never said a word i never said a word to her never commented probably liked a few of her videos likes her like the photos but never said a word honestly silent witness so i messaged her i i actually completely agree with you though i think doing this makes you realize how much you use people you just take it yeah you obviously big i just take it for granted yeah take take take honestly it's all i do so i messaged her if you don't follow her hayley blaze she's really cool her name on instagram is h blaze sauce stunning um so i said hey hayley just wanted to let you know that i've literally been watching your channel following you for about four years now i did make a typo and realized that i've never left you a comment slash messaged you to tell you how amazing you are was walking my

dog today and severance pay her song started playing so i felt compelled to say that i love your music and all your videos just wanted to say thank you in capitals for all the content i have consumed of yours over the years so true and i'm glad i did it so true right i've honestly been silently following this girl's life for years and years and years of my life and never said a word yeah and she's really cool and she actually deserves such a bigger following than she already has so if you don't follow her hayley blaise she's really cool oh this is so wholesome i know i know out of the libra and the capricorn you would count on the capricorn to do the homework quite nicely in the libra to kind of be such a perfectionist that she wouldn't even start it and then just forget about it

yeah but mine is like honestly typo city that's gorgeous that's really nice i hope she does reply but if not you've done a good deed anyway that's lovely now should we get into why men are fucking shit yes let's do it let's do it one of the things i wanted to start talking about i wanted to just jump in with my anger for this because let it all out again i just want to emphasize that if you know me in real life i just don't owe you answers like don't come and question me on this so because i know the men in my life well they're your biggest fans to be honest they can't get enough of you no they can't but and by proxy they can't get enough come and question me on this so because i know the men in my life well they're your biggest fans to be honest they can't get enough of you no they can't but and by proxy they can't get enough of me so i'm here to say leave us both alone literally literally that i wanted to some of the polls did

just irritate my nuts okay so so we did polls on the story if you're new here we do polls on the story people vote um to kind of leave you up and get you ready for the convo that will come the following week wet the whistle wet we wet the whistle and we ask you all of your thoughts on a certain topic broad or teensy tiny so one of the first ones was just like is i hate men a problematic statement and i just saw a lot of men voting yes it is actually problematic i just thought fuck off i wasn't talking to you babe but the one that really annoyed me so there were loads and loads of polls one that really irritated me do men hate women more than women

hate men every single man that i fucking saw absolutely women hate men way more than men hate women and it's like stop raping us give us equal pay then do you want to stop murdering us do you feel really hated in your life do you walk around your life feeling really hated what's like do you want to be a woman then do you want to switch places and see that you can't leave your house past 11 p.m without fearing for your goddamn life absolutely really funny story i was walking down the street last night with my boyfriend it was his birthday yesterday and walking down the street in vauxhall there were two people in front of us two women and me myself and my boyfriend walking kind of behind me from the view of a car driving past car driving

past beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beeps galore and i was kind of i kind of just like rolled my eyes kind of like bizarre anyway i was kind of mid con kind of just like rolled my eyes. Kind of like bizarre. Anyway, I was kind of mid-converse. I was like, you know, don't disrupt my flow. And Jack was like, I'm sure he just saw three girls. Like didn't see me behind you and was beeping you all. Yeah. And I was going, oh, does that make you angry? Does it?

Does that make you angry? He was like, he was actually really annoyed. And it was really nice. And this is why also the whole thing of men are trash. It's listen i've got a boyfriend yeah i love so many men but men are trash i hate men as concepts deserve to be there to be interrogated we'll get into it okay so if we so someone raised quite an interesting point about black people saying white people are trash as a white person you're gonna sit there and go actually white people are trash is a really problematic statement no it's not a fucking problematic statement because yeah

collectively white supremacy white kind of power is hugely trash it's kind of well you would say that wouldn't you yeah you say yeah it's problematic because it's offensive to me but it's like yeah but they're not being racist to you they're just making you a little bit uncomfortable you're just finding it to be a little bit unkind it's like it's not discriminative it's not it's not racist it's not prejudice it's not oppressive it's just a little bit mean you still systemically have the power do you know what i mean it's like oh you're just a little bit sad you can sit there going actually men are trash is really problematic yeah but so you're still getting paid more you still don't have to wear makeup every day to be sort of palatable you don't have to fear for your life no no no no no no so you

were annoyed by the men saying that women hate men because definitely that the discourse recently like in popular culture has sort of the balance has come back to women kind of reclaiming a bit of power by going men are trash and like having a little joke about their own oppression and then i find it funny that men have interpreted that to be women just hate men women just hate men so much but men they don't hate women men want women to have the power we don't have rights anymore men just want things to be equal no you don't want us to be fucking equal or you'd give us the power you can't you can't i can't bear it it's the classic equality feels like oppression to those that are used to privilege.

Exactly that, yeah. They've been called trash once and they're like, oh, you hate us. It's like, for good reason. And for good reason. It's not about individuals. Because we got one message. I feel like I've come in with anger

because, I mean, we have received many irritating messages. I was, I know the message you're going to say and I rightly was, I was actually really triggered. Yeah. Coming off the back of the last episode where I was kind of crying my eyes out I just think sometimes you go through ways where what people say really affects you and I know it's like I'm not in control of what other people are saying but god I was so I was I was triggered by everyone's responses yeah because it's just it's just suddenly like god I've got notifications to

my phone about thoughts on patriarchy, which makes perfect sense because that's what I'm serving to the world every day. So rightly so, it would come back to me, but it's just sends you insane, right? Yeah, it's like they would send them here. Makes sense. We kind of asked for them. It's kind of triggering on two levels

because the amazing ones, it's like, yeah, I fucking agree with you and this is so unfair. And the ones that are unfair and the horrific, saying actually you fucking hate men because you're a bitter cunt it's like no you idiot get out of my phone we got one particular one that was i mean triggering me till the cows come home like i honestly can't even bear it from someone that we vaguely know and they were saying that it's about the individual it's not kind of um not all it basically he was saying loudly not all men it's about the individual it's not about um men women

it's not about gender and it's like how can you say with a straight face that this is not about gender how can you say that oh it's about the individual some men are good some men are bad no everyone on the entire planet is infused with patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalist ideologies. It's not about the individual. It's about a complete system that people can play into in different ways. It's not about fucking individuals. It's about systemic power. We should have been taught this in school. Patriarchy is about gender and patriarchy, as you say, is infused in all of us in the same way that when you're discussing men are trash white people are this etc etc yeah it's not it's not all men it's not all white people for example but it is every single human being that has been informed and indoctrinated

into this really bizarre and disgusting way of life and way of understanding the world and way of understanding themselves within the world yeah how could it not be all of us it's just as much not all men as it is all women exactly it's completely all women and we all hold it up in our own ways i.e the fact that i'm sitting here with mascara on that is upholding a certain element of the patriarchy or kind of well we've spoken about internalized misogyny in so many ways many times i mean we've spoken about i'm not like other girls there we go there was an amazing article that i do i literally for my prep for this i just googled men are trash saw what came up just so happened number one article written by my queen who i have mentioned the podcast before salma elwadani who's a poet but there was a point that she wrote i've actually

screenshotted loads of bits of the article that i'm sure i will read at some point maybe we're who knows we prep weird shit for those things but there was a bit where she said like whereas girls hopped out of the womb and were wrapped in a pink blanket and boys jumped out of the womb and were wrapped in a blue blanket how can you say that this wasn't infused throughout your entire life and that this didn't affect you and it's not all men when she didn't write this but i had an amazing lecture once or seminar she didn't write this but i'm to make her point so much better. This is actually one of my teachers at uni's points, one of my lecturer's points.

And what she should have said was. What she should have said. I was watching it once in a seminar. I just think this sums up perfectly. This lecturer was showing the differences of how men and women are taught to view themselves. She was showing these kids mirrors, you know, like in a playroom, kids would have like their little mirrors

that have little pictures on. The girls said like kind of jessica above the top and it'll be pictures of fairies and pictures of princesses and all this stuff as you're viewing yourself the boys one would be a picture of like his name ben and then pictures of builders trucks planes and it's like the astronaut astronaut and it's just like it's the idea of male and female toys but your mirror is even more because it's like the- Astronaut. Astronaut. And it's just like, it's the idea of male and female toys, but your mirror is even more because it's like, okay, you're viewing yourself and you're viewing these things feeding back to you. It's like, how can you say,

how can you say that this didn't feed into your life and it's not all men? It is you. Yeah. Okay, I wanted to read this point. I literally replied to this person. I was like, this is my favourite thing I've ever read. So I'm just going to read it out word for word.

The question was if the phrase is problematic or not. And they replied saying, it's an abrasive phrase, yes not and they replied saying it's an abrasive phrase yes and i agree it's an abrasive phrase yes it's purposely um kind of controversial it's provocative yeah for sure continued but it's only problematic to the men slash people who automatically pull out the not all men card i've seen a few of them recently and cannot or refuse to acknowledge that it is a sentiment directed to the societal cultural internalized misogyny and sexism perpetuated by the patriot i'm kind of the teacher in raven that's a raven i'm kind of spitting on all of you i was thinking you're kind of um professor quirrell you're kind of like, P-P-P-Potter? Yeah.

Not that you need it, eh, Potter? Not that you need it, eh. He's got this frightfully fascinating subject. He's like, a troll in the dungeons. Thought you ought to know. Thought you ought to know. Right, here we go. It is a sentiment directed to the societal cultural internalized misogyny and sexism perpetuated by the patriarchal structure that is the basis of the entire world we live in

now i know all of your boyfriends aren't listening anymore sephie yeah all of my boyfriends is funny number one two three and four off Off you go. Boyfriend one. Okay. Men who let other men get away with the stuff not all men, quote unquote, carry out, are just as complicit. Hence why the statement is not problematic if you are not part of the problem and can see how the statement men are trash is resonating with the majority of women,

or at least the majority of women on our very small sample size that we have going on in the story. This bit I particularly loved. People don't like to feel uncomfortable when they are forced to face their own complacency. Is that Ozzy going in the background? Oh God, can you hear him?

Sorry, sorry guys. He's honestly shouting, not all men. Not all men. Literally. He's going mental. It's about the individual. It's not about a system feminazis fuck we're sorry if you can hear that this is a beautiful message complimented by the

dulcet tones of ozzy spark there's not really much i can do everyone else in the house is ignoring him men are trash do they know we run a podcast how rude jack did say to me a few months ago he was like every time you record you kill a songbird for two hours right i'm just gonna carry on with or without you ozzy people don't like to feel uncomfortable when they are forced to face their own complacency i just find that stunning it's hard to deal with being uncomfortable when you are in a position of privilege the same as people who say all lives matter to an extent if you will allow me to make a generalized analogy i will it's easier to be worked up and get mad about it and make it personal than it is to find the courage to be a part of a solution stunning stunning so stunning it's like did you write that in your notes before you sent it please say yes

otherwise i'll feel really inferior literally really stunning right yeah should we have her as a guest like that is so that says it better than we ever could well I just said off the off the record off mic off the pod I just said we could easily write down and script this out I would make a good point Sefa make a good point back I'll make a good point she'll make a good point back and that would be great and it would be a beautiful lecture but as we said this is not what that's gonna be I do not come to a podcast for a lecture i come for a kind of flawed chat and kind of a dog barking in the background that's what i want yeah absolutely but i just thought that this in particular raised a good point to me this whole conversation is

suffragist suffragettes yeah it's like which way are we going to do this and the problem that i see with that is when taking it back as she said it's an abrasive phrase yes but it's only problematic to the men and people who automatically pull out the not all men card and cannot or refuse to acknowledge that it's a sentiment directed to society and not personal because I completely understand why we had so so many messages saying it's not productive it's not gonna be useful to reason with men it's not gonna be useful to reason with people who aren't within this kind of small feminist world that you and I are functioning with and I agree with that and I see how you could get to that point and I've been at that point before and thought so many ways about what's the most productive way

to mobilize a revolution but actually why is my feminism being geared towards making men more comfortable that's the final straw for me that's where it all comes back down to is is my feminism really feminism if I'm just worried about what will make the men happier when I perform it yeah and we'll make them say oh yeah well you're not trash baby it's like actually no we all you are we all are we've all internalized bullshit yeah and me too completely I'm trash I just think I think it's so true that it's got the same ring to it the not all men it's about the individual not a system whatever you want to say however you want to spin that line has the same energy of all lives matter acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend nature i've got a gay rooster named franco. Is so gay. These rams are gay.

I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer.

And we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com It's the same defense of, what do you mean? No, no, it's the same defence of what do you mean? no, no it's about

no, actually just fucking think use your brain it's not about you yeah, well it is the same energy as rejecting Black Lives Matter

because how could it not be? because it comes from that same place the same place of fear and defence it's like on the defence it's like how the defense it's

like how dare you come to me and say that i'm gonna throw this back because i'm scared absolutely but it is in all of us in the same way that kind of you grew up saying that blue is your favorite color not pink because you're not like other girls etc etc and and and it's that doesn't mean that i'm a man and i'm trash it just means all of us have internalized patriarchy in some way and we'll continue to carry it out until we have conversations like this that interrogate hating men for example it reminded me and again of another amazing message that we got from someone that i'm gonna read the question was do men hate women more than women hate men which was the triggering one which was quite triggering and this person just replied saying women hate men which was the triggering one which was quite triggering and this person just replied saying women hate women more than men hate women and honestly i'm shivering it's like

yeah to be honest take me and flip me over turn it how the turntables literally that yeah honestly women hate women more than anyone else hates women women hate women first but how could they not and it's the same way that the discourse around and i'm putting this in massive quote marks black on black crime or kind of doja cat being anti-black for example and all of the ways that you see um black people or people of color um uphold white supremacy indirectly or directly because we've all been raised to want to fit into the molds of patriarchy and white supremacy and class and all of those things that we think will help us survive. It's like, yeah, if that's going to make me more attractive to you, I'll hate women too.

Absolutely. Fuck those women. Fuck those bitches. Pick me. I still think men hate women more than women hate women. No, I agree. If you look at sort of, for example, murder, rape, These are things that to me symbolise a systemic hatred, a systemic belief that you are superior. Women aren't murdering other women in the same way and women aren't murdering other men in the same way that men are systemically, globally murdering women.

Yeah, but I think that's also to do with the way that we raise women to sit in front of a mirror with a fairy and we raise men to sit in front of a mirror with a fairy and we raise men to sit in front of a mirror with a hammer with a tank it's kind of yeah you're raising men to be more violent and that violent comes out in other ways whereas we grew up being um very like communicatively violent like very also very british kind of the internalized institutionalized yeah the passive internalized kind of the racism that you hope goes under the radar those sorts of things it's like our aggression to minorities and women and that all of those things um not as direct as putting on a MAGA hat and saying all lives matter for example well it's like if you think

that a little girl's raised with a Barbie a man is raised with a literal action man an army man yeah there was a fucking stat I literally don't know where this was I screen it's somewhere in my screenshots i think the number is three percent but it could be give or take a few numbers maybe but it was the three percent of uk citizens associate the word kindness with masculinity and it's like there we go then men are not bred essentially are not um taught to be kind nurturing any of the things that you would associate with femininity you're really going to sit there and say oh no we're not trash no one thinks you're kind as a gender bred to be 97 of people do not associate kindness with you but it's fucking true it's like okay so it's not your fault you were told to do this you're performing this image of like brutish masculinity it's like that's trash not you individually the system is fucking trash yeah

a little kid playing with a fucking action man army man is trash why have we done that it's not your fault but you're now performing that and that does end in sort of domestic abuse yeah gender pay gaps cat calling all of the things we talk about yeah then calls the question okay when how do we move past this because the sooner we can move past this silly thing of um i'm not trash oh shit okay but i am part of a system that is trash the sooner we can accept that and get to that point then surely the better but it's how do we do that and that is where i understand people being like but this isn't productive completely but again then i'm like okay well if this conversation isn't productive what i'm so i'm supposed to be productive in my oppression am i i'm supposed to be considerate in my oppression yeah even when i'm oppressed i still have to be kind and quiet

and palatable i'm not allowed to make a joke yeah well this is also a question that i did that dare i say so myself i loved it was do we police women's feminism more than we police men's misogyny yes definitely yes right 88 said yes thousands said yes thousands and i said at the bottom i more than we police men's misogyny. Yes, definitely. Yes, right? 88% said yes. Thousands said yes. Thousands! And I said at the bottom, I know people are triggered at this one.

Surely we... So how could we not police the way that women are feminists more than the way that we police men for their misogyny? It shouldn't be so risky for us to be making a podcast saying men are trash, I hate men.

I hate men. If we didn't police women's feminism that much, this wouldn't be controversial. Yeah. Why are feminists globally hated? And misogynists. I mean, there's one as fucking president. It's ridiculous. How on earth?

Yeah. So there was one. Well, there were so many things that we loved in the stories, but this one stood out to both of us. I think we both screenshotted this one. Yeah. Which we never do. We always seem to find different things.

But this one, we both have like highlighted screenshot sent around the world. And now we're going to read it out. Printed it out and stuck it on my bedside table. Framed it, you know, tattooed it on my bum. You know, we've got it everywhere. She's saying, I hate men. Men are trash.

It is empowering. So she says, it is empowering. We've spent too long pandering to men when they kill and rape us daily i knew you'd like that bit i love that because it's fucking true let's get the stats out let's watch the men go it's about the individual let's watch them squirm she didn't say it that's me i'm i'm riffing she said also it refers to the hegemonic man and the way men are conditioned patriarchy is trash women have

had that power taken away them since birth the absolutism of the statement is strong and powerful women are inherently oppressed so relational fuck so relationally that's kind of diagonally so in relation you could say relationally statements like this are in a way punching up if men were to say it they'd be punching down excuse my sadly too appropriate metaphor and let's take a moment of silence kind of can you come move in with me you are stunning but that was so i love the i love the ending like kind of should we take a bath together do you want to come over like rub my feet do you want to go to paris do you want to go to paris i just see us like in croissants are you free this weekend

trips across the same um yeah take it away i love that she said that statement is punching up rather than punching down it's like when people say oh yeah well reverse sexism reverse racism it's like that obviously doesn't exist a man saying women are trash is not the same as a woman saying men are trash because you're punching up you're going up the system and saying you're trash whereas they would be going down well it's kind of a woman in poverty in britain saying fuck boris johnson it's like yeah that's not very nice it's a little bit mean oh no in relation to the grand scheme of things in the world Kind of a woman in poverty in Britain saying fuck Boris Johnson. It's like, yeah, that's not very nice. It's a little bit mean in relation to the grand scheme of things in the world.

Doesn't matter. I'm too right she should be saying that. Because he's starving her children to death. Like he's not. There we go. Whereas Boris Johnson saying fuck the woman. Fuck that woman in poverty, which I can almost guarantee that is what he's saying behind closed doors if he's saying certain things on camera. Yeah, he's got the power.

So it's completely different. A white person saying black people are trash and a black person saying white people are trash. It's completely obviously different. So it's literally worlds apart. If you say the reverse racism, reverse sexism, if you say that exists, you honestly need to read a fucking book and the news yeah well that's kind of the thing i think the problem isn't the statement i think the problem is the people that just can't get that do you know what i mean i think the problem isn't that that that these statements are too provocative or too aggressive or too abrasive i think it's the

problem isn't with them the problem is with the audience that can't hack it exactly exactly that it's like would you rather which end would you rather be on the privileged end that's having an abrasive statement said about you or the oppressed end yeah you can't leave your house I mean now in England it gets dark at 4 p.m so well I can't go out at 6 p.m for a walk and I'm not being dramatic I fully can't I'm literally fearing for my life yeah same i did this the other day i went for a walk it was probably about seven so it was pitch black started walking with my dog and i was like okay fuck it this is gonna be i was honestly wasn't thinking about my life at this point i was just thinking okay i'm gonna walk my dog i'm a brave strong girl i can do this walking walking walking what happens man in a white van stops at the other side of the road crosses over the road and i had to literally leg it yeah he literally crossed over the road to come

and talk to me i guess okay so that was that a life-risking scenario i don't know but i'm not going to stay to find out yeah literally that and the same with me walking through pimlico last night it's like jack the security that i felt with my boyfriend being there is huge is massive because it just allowed me to just yeah and it's the same way that a man will only listen to you when you say when you say no if you say oh sorry i've got a boyfriend because it just makes more sense for you to be somebody else's property and you've already been taken by somebody else by another man rather than you just having your own right to say no yeah they can only respect another man oh so ridiculous isn't it it actually makes me it's almost i don't know whether to scream cry or kind of just like start manically laughing like it's just like i

don't know what to do we did i was really actually quite triggered by a lot of the responses we've built kind of the most beautiful echo chamber which is obviously really dangerous and like really kind of um ridiculous really but that day that we put these up and that it was really kind of kicking off in the dms in the response box everywhere which is amazing like i love every message yeah but it really felt like kind of get the microscope out like you're under a lens now or it just felt like oh actually we decided on this topic brilliant let's go in i was a bit nervous because it's a bit like oh god God, this is a heavy topic. I don't really know if I'm equipped. Like, let me read three books and then I can do it. But it's kind of like being hit in one evening with everyone's

thoughts on this stuff is like amazing. But also like, fuck, the world is so bleak. Like, I'm actually just like watching Scream 3 with my brother and suddenly I'm like, ah, the world is ending. Well, I think we realized that the page wasn't as safe as we thought yeah definitely i also just think it's really triggering to see people from your life that follow the page that i know in real life voting that they think that women hate men more than men hate women and it's like are you voting like are you voting politically like that as well because you're oppressing yourself well it's just kind of okay so when we're kind of chatting at the pub is that what you're thinking you've you've got a lot of built-up resentment do you yeah you think i'm a crazy fucking feminist no we're feminists for

good reason because this is the system's fucked we haven't blown this out proportionally it's not like we're saying oh my god men are raping women all over the place and they're not and they're not made it up and they're not doing that we made it up big moment of my imagination but no why did brock turner get three months in fucking jail or whatever if this isn't real been in quarantine far longer than he then brock turner spent in jail i'm sorry was put away yeah how can you be a functioning member of this society and not see that men hate women more than women hate men the symptoms of misogyny are so expansive versus symptoms of misandry because i can say yeah men are trash and i can also say this man that i love isn't trash however when he behaves in the way that he has been raised

in a controversial or problematic way or in a patriarchal with patriarchal behaviors i will absolutely begin a conversation and steer us both toward whatever kind of scraps of rejecting patriarchy that we can yeah because it's just way too simplistic to just say oh you get good and bad in everyone let's leave it there and it's like well what's that doing for the world where has that got us so far it's very kind of 90s early 2000s kind of colorblind good and bad and everyone like no i'm not racist no i'm not homophobic i just don't want to see it in my face in my face oh get out of my fucking face you cunt that sort of narrative and it's just like you can't turn a blind eye to issues just because you think that they don't impact you because patriarchy class race all of those sexuality everything impacts everyone all of us because it creates

the world that you have to function in so it's like oh you want to live in a homophobic space do you you want to live in a racist place you don't have a problem with that okay so you're racist yeah you don't want to see it in your face but you don't realize that straight culture is absolutely everywhere every movie you've ever watched every fucking song every bit of media you consume is straight culture the whole way that you navigate life you walk into kind of starbucks and think that a man is looking at you if you're a woman and a woman is looking at you if you're a man i was just thinking then it's with the phrase men are trash if you break it down it's actually just saying masculinity is trash femininity it's actually not a debate about men which makes it about the person or the individual it's actually just saying masculinity is trash femininity it's actually not a debate about men

which makes it about the person or the individual it's actually about the ways in which we perform masculinity and femininity are trash like the traits of masculinity are trash i saw someone say it's not men are trash it's patriarchy or trash i still do think it is men are trash though yes because then you are individually performing it so you're yeah because it is the man the only thing i will say is it does um kind of emphasize a really binary way of looking at things but as such as the patriarchy so what would we expect because kind of all of those all of the questions on the story were kind of men versus women women do you do this men do you do this blah blah it's like yes that is incredibly binary but what would we expect we're discussing the patriarchy which is incredibly and innately binary yeah completely i feel bummed getting fumed i feel

actually bummed i feel derped i wanted to this unfortunately was not sent in by the amazing slumflower i wish she was viewing our story and messaging oh my god could you imagine just this amazing quote she says i aspire to be as terrifying as possible to men so that only the ones doing the work can enjoy the wonder of my existence shivers and i just think yeah now that we've had a bit of a dance around all of the different ways in which this might be a problem and how it doesn't really matter and blah blah i think now we're at kind of the half of the podcast where we get quite kind of well fuck this and i just think it's true i think anyone doing the work would understand why you're kind of within your right to be like yeah men are trash i hate men blah blah blah um and then they can enjoy you and the people who don't get it are obviously further back on their journey

and give them the time and maybe they'll come with if they're lucky enough and if not then see you around i guess it's kind of anyone in their right mind would understand why women are pissed off yeah and particularly black women i get how it could inflate white feminism in the sense that well it's very flippant isn't it it's like men are trash and i still have privilege and i also think is it gonna it's actually quite an interesting idea is it to feed into the kind of girl boss? Just like make a sticker of it, put it on your laptop and go. It's quite sellable, right? It does.

It definitely does. Well, I think it's not actually something I personally say because I think it does have that element of girl boss, which I find incredibly patronising, like incredibly problematic kind of girl boss attitude. Well, it's kind of, it's more of a capitalist statement than than anything it's just kind of put it in some big pink bubble writing and you've got yourself a five pound sale kind of a mug that says feminist on absolutely in what ways are you a feminist the female workers in bangladesh making my mug do they think that

i'm a feminist do they when their ceiling is falling down on them am i a feminist now when actually you're a white capitalist who also hates women and hates yourself yeah so i wonder actually and i think in that way all because i like someone said um it's just an accessible and kind of hilarious way and as we've said on this podcast to kind of um joke about your own oppression and kind of appropriate it which i also think is a part another reason why men would hate it because women aren't funny only men are allowed to be funny i've just never heard a woman a female comedian that's funny i've just never heard it exactly so i kind of think men just refuse to give a little chuckle at anything that women do anyway but i do think if men are trash i hate men could ever become something that is kind of on a yoga mat that's bleak do you know what i

mean those sorts of really brandable quote-unquote feminist statements then i think yeah it's just a waste of time isn't it they're said without any awareness they're said with kind of i.e girl boss instead of like oh my god girl boss it's like female empowering stuff. It's like, in what way? In what way is saying girl boss and sort of placing a divide between a boss, which is presumed masculine and a girl boss? Because it's kind of Philip Green signing it off. That's his name, right? Philip Green?

Topshop man. Mr. Topshop is kind of signing off. Yep, yep. Put all that stuff that says- Black Lives Matter. Pride on it. Yep, put all of that stuff that says girl boss on it and it's like let's capitalize on a revolution that does not serve me and if anything

seeks to remove the exact privilege that i benefit from in this company and in this world we posted an amazing thing ages ago this was i mean scrolls and scrolls down the feed i honestly think we might have archived it by now it was in one of our first ever lines that we did and it was kind of a picture of someone a woman in a sweatshop kind of sewing a top that says girl power or something I think it says fuck the patriarchy fuck the patriarchy and it's a woman sewing something in kind of a sweatshop and it's like actually how dare white women be wearing clothes that say or be buying a little sticker that says feminist or a little you know men are trash that are way so flippantly whilst you are still on the upper end of privilege let me actually find who that artist

is because it's also then you scroll to the next post and it's us being like girl boss girl boss and yeah i don't even know whose work that is that we posted and she spent hours doing that i don't know who did that drawing do you no I haven't got a clue no I have no idea but I know that I love it smash the patriarchy odalie brie illustrator just isn't it funny that we're so keen to whack kind of girl boss on something or like yeah like female fronted business blah blah but how often do any of us ever really root for or take much awareness of what other women are doing? Do you know what I mean? I think we do it when it works for us and when it's convenient.

But how often do we go out of our way? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, completely. I completely, completely agree. It's so easy to just be saying, oh, my God. I'll wear the Smash the Patriarchy t-shirt instead because that's easier. Or even bigger statements like I'm an intersectional feminist. It's like, in what ways are you intersection intersectional in what ways do you understand intersectionality

as a concept which ways do you engage with intersectional feminists like it's larger than just kind of i mean girl but girl boss is just absolute eye roll instantly that's kind of the epitome of of just a guy of something of smoothing things over and under the lift the rug up and it's just a big mess under there and it's just a load of um white capitalists white women that just want to be the next kind of fucking elon musk it's just bleak i mean even if you take it even larger it's like in what ways we're everyone engaging with this podcast us to everyone here everyone harry i speak directly to you is an intelligent person that wants to help kind of be part of the solution of the world in what ways are we really engaging with our own privileged

intersectionality all of these things i mean putting like i'm just a feminist it's like is it really good enough no it's not i love it i mean i think maybe we should wrap there yeah i think we should wrap before we get cancelled for saying something, for going too far. I think our focus for the next week, just to make sure that we're just continuing to not be cunts around here, right? Yeah.

As much as possible, obviously, within reason. There's only so much I can do. Our homework, if you will. Yeah, our homework, if you will, I think would be a good idea to support a woman in some way yeah um support kind of the girl in the year below who just started a cupcake business if you can't afford to buy them put it on your story or buy the slumflowers book or promote um someone to your friend that you are a big fan of someone's work that you do i mean do what

seffy did and let someone know that you've been loving i mean i hate to say us but i think instead of i mean if men are trash discourse isn't productive let's have a productive week and make sure that all of the shit that we're talking about when we say we hate men is balanced out by um all of the amazing things that we're doing for our peer women if men hate women we can't be thinking that women hate women more than men hate women we've got to cancel that out fuck that no anyone who isn't a man do something to um support them help them out make their life a bit easier that put that message out women supporting women i will be waiting yeah i'll be waiting here. Send flowers, letters.

Our door is always open. Lilies are preferred. Okay, ready? Shall we go? Yeah, speak to you all later. See you in Paris, baby. Oh my God, see you in Paris.