Goes Without Saying - internalised misogyny & The Witch (Bitch) Hunt: it ends with *US*

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on formulating opinions as insecure young women, shared hatred and women as the common enemy, online narratives, echo chambers and hive minds, florals, Lily Blossom Bloom, and the inevitability of being hated. ✷see more ✷ www.youtube.com/@sephyandwing ✷ www.instagram.com/sephyandwing ✷ www.tiktok.com/@sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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For eight short minutes every morning, you'll get the headlines that you need from Canada and around the world to tell you what's going on and help you make sense of it all. Join me every morning, wherever you get your podcasts. and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Goes without saying, you're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. This is actually a really fun conversation, I think.

Very honest and fresh and raw and real and authentic conversation around mostly just conversations on social media so a little bit meta but commenting on the rhetoric and discourse that we're all seeing all the time and the ways that we all begin to regurgitate the things that other people are hearing and saying do we have any thoughts of our own anymore? Is critical thinking dead? I would love to explore that with you guys. Enjoy. Hello.

Hello. And how high are you holding your microphone? Here. Is that... How's that sounding? That looks good to me. Okay, I'm just gonna talk a bit louder because I think... Other thing is I whisper. Uh huh. Well I shout. I scream the house down. Yeah, I think that's... I think it's genuinely the volume that I speak at is just too quiet. Mmm, yeah, you're sounding quite quiet there actually.

But, we can turn you up. True, I'll just speak like this volume. Be quiet. Yeah. Is it quite, I'm screaming my head off. It feels very like censored, it feels like almost I'm 15 and I'm like faking making a YouTube video in my room and I'm like ta ta ta. I know it's so

Friend I've got to tell you a secret. Yes Okay, right. So I'm talking now a normal volume. I just talk however, we do what we have to do. I'm screaming Right, okay, so calm I'm screaming Screaming right now Maybe I'm not. I'm screaming right now. Maybe I'm not, right? Okay. Anyway, this is the volume that I shall be talking at today. Perfect. Sounds good to me.

How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Good. Nice to be back. Really nice to be back. We need to have like a big sit down.

We need to have what we have shared with you guys externally now, the lingo of the higher fire. We need to have a meeting. Regrettably, we have shared that lingo. Yeah. Regrettably, we have shared with you guys externally now, the lingo of the higher fire, we need to have a meeting. Regrettably we have shared that lingo. Yeah, regrettably we have shared so many things. One of them being the higher fire feeling that you get when you discuss even a little wink of Sephian Wing. But we are overdue a higher fire meeting. We are and I also would like to, I would like Harry to get to be able to say what he would want in a higher fire meeting just almost like I wouldn't mind stepping into a bit of a

new era new phase 100% also because we've missed so we have missed oh we've been a fucking mess recently we missed a whole week yeah we missed two weeks we've just been and then we came back for one and missed one just with so much love always we just are it's been a bit chaotic times. it still kind of is a bit but it's been so much. it's been insane. actually. yeah it has actually been so much. I'm moving in like two weeks. there's a lot going on still but I do think. oh my god we're so... we're back. we're back. let's say we're back. we're back but I I wanna know what we're stepping back into.

I would love to just come in to like- Oh, you want a change? Well, I just want like a- Level up. Yeah, or just like a big decision from all of us of like, I don't know. Well, I've been thinking of surveying everyone. Oh, I'm so behind the survey, yeah, 100%.

I've been thinking of dropping a survey on Instagram, but then- Well, why don't we do that I would love to see well I wanted to warn you I wanted to warn everyone first yeah are you in a position to receive information that could potentially harm you yeah good I haven't heard that in a while no neither that's what I thought I'm surprised I pulled it off really cleanly as well yeah it's the kind of phrase that you can't help but stumble on. Yeah So we're back like we are genuinely missing out Lively okay. Yeah, we're back to talk about Blake Lavely. What's her name Blake?

Lively, um, so I haven't seen yeah, I haven't seen ends with us yet. Have you neither? No, no, no, but we should Should we try and see it this week then? 100%. I almost saw it yesterday but it was on at the... But I was like, I just have to see this, I have to see this. But then I was like, no, wing. Okay, I'm glad you didn't. Wing, wing, wing. Yeah, I have to see it with you. Also, I think it would be quite excruciating to see it alone.

Some things are enhanced by being on your own. This isn't. I think I might find it a difficult... we're skipping ahead. Yeah. Okay so generally what I'm thinking this conversation will be, as all conversations are around here, the crux, framed by maybe a little just pushing into an awareness of how much of our opinions are our own and how much are we influenced and regurgitating the thoughts and feelings from other people. How many times have you heard yourself say, that's so stunning, that's so divine and then thought, I've been listening to that podcast too much. I know you've done it. I know you've done it and

I've done it too. But I think it'd be intriguing to think about the Blake Lively concept in general. Yeah I think let's just think about basically me and Sevi had a conversation about the Blake Lively thing and we both felt like we had a take that we hadn't seen from anybody else really. It wasn't like a very loud take. I feel like it was a crazy moment between us. We were sort of screaming between each other because we haven't spoken about. Venting. So basically, in the time that we've been gone,

this movie, It Ends With Us has come out, there's been internet conversation going on. Me and Wing haven't spoken in this way, like in a formal context, since we last spoke to you. And we've been hanging out, but we don't we weren't Sometimes we need to be one-on-one to really crack open all the we do Yeah, although often we're speaking and people are like god you're just doing a podcast now and it's like oh, sorry actually quite Quite yeah, it's actually quite embarrassing how often that is embarrassing and shout out to Naina because I keep thinking about basically oh god sorry I actually can't get this episode started. Sorry guys we just got back. We just got so much to say. So basically went to this event random thing the other day it was the opening of I believe it will be open now House of Sunny have a sample sale going on and I think it was the opening day of the sample sale in East London

If you're around maybe go check it out. We all left empty-handed I will say but yeah, I have faith in you guys Anyway, we went with Naina for a luxury or dream And on the way back we were doing a bit of a bit but like really genuinely I didn't realise people were. I've never been more sincere about anything in my life talking about like the things we did and didn't like about the event. Which was about a 10 minute pop into a shop situation. Right and we had about a 50 minute episodes worth of convo and it was only when you said like god why do we analyze the thing that we've all just done together that was like yeah in detail in detail. I almost like I have

the thing of like if I go through something with you not even go through something makes it sound like worth more than it is. Go into a shop that was all we did. If I go somewhere if I walk down a street I wouldn't mind popping in just for a second and being like girl in the red dress did we not acknowledge that same thing did you see that sign that I saw? Couldn't agree more. What about the car? What about the traffic? Did we hit the same notes? What was your experience? I couldn't agree more but every time I try and initiate that with someone they say what? What are you doing?

What? It's only you and this is why I love our friendship. It's only you that wants to do that and I genuinely think this is what I mean by we take everything to its full conclusion we couldn't push anything that we do further like every single line of inquiry is like okay so we do a 10 minute event that then gets spun into yeah an hour of conversation in chronological order ideally the clothes, how would we have done that differently? the room, the size of the room, the temperature of the room, the company it's very, I love it but I get that it would be quite exhausting. it's a few things for me,

I'm looking for validation in my experience, it's like okay I experienced that half an hour to be a bit like weird, did you think it was weird? no? yes? okay perfect, set that. let me just pour some concrete over what's going on in my mind. yeah let me reframe that slightly and also i'm just curious to hear your thoughts but do we just have too much time like that is insane that we do that i think we have too much time and i think we have the jamaima kirk thinking about things too much and specifically thinking about ourselves too much but i think we get a kick out of it like we get a big kick out of the like um the debrief is a big thing like i love the debrief of things i also love like

oh sorry that i have to talk about my silly little life that i have my friends i sorry that literally i wouldn't mind talking about it i wouldn't go miss exactly right anyway we'd been so we haven't done one of those in a while yes yeah was there anything to add to add about that i was that was just we were doing the podcast, a live podcast with naina. yeah. down the street of Bethnal Green Road. and just how much we love naina. so much. but so we have not really spoken about it ends with us. this whole thing has happened on the internet. everyone's fuming at Blake Lively blah blah blah blah. i've seen a few sort of varying takes but i was watching some stuff about it the other day with my sister lying in

bed and i physically had to pause the video and say both of these angles wrong i'm telling you what i think now and it was a take that i had not heard yeah it was a take that i had not heard anyone saying until me and wing were on the tube the other day yeah and wing was like i think i have a take that no one's saying and i was like stop you there can I tell you mine and see if it's the same yes classically our takes massively matched up and they were pretty much the exact same yes even though we hadn't spoken and this is why I think it was interesting you talk about regurgitation at the beginning as I do because truly the easy thing like when I first found this out is that okay so the natural instinct is to

hate on blake lively the natural instinct is to then say there's hate on this man blah blah blah there are these two camps and then it's like actually the fact that we've both come to this within our own brains and they're the same makes me think other people are thinking it but no one's saying it and also we're just maybe really smart i i don't know. i think not even other people are thinking it and they're not saying it. i think people aren't thinking it because they haven't had a conscious thought in years. i think people haven't thought critically about much in their lives for a really really really long time. but maybe people also don't really care. like one time you actually sat back and yeah and people don't care about blakeively and you're so right guys you are so right. And in some ways neither do I but also it is interesting.

I'm gonna engage in a convo about something or if I'm gonna honestly be force fed this like culture convo if I'm gonna be force fed like internet discourse pop culture whatever bullshit at least I can't help but sit back and reflect on what my thought is I was actually thinking about this the other day, really randomly, but I was thinking about, I don't know what kicked it off, but I started thinking about when my instinct in responding to an essay question changed, what I mean by that is. So I'll speak specifically for history, and it's a very like UK like History angle of like school. Yeah secondary school like you're doing your GCSEs then your A levels and then a degree whatever

Yeah at GCSE level. It's like okay, you're getting all your sources So how much the printing press to what extent did that revolutionize the communication? What is the print? I've always used the printing press as an example, I don't know why. But whatever, to what extent did something- It transformed everything. So much. To what extent was this thing massive? Yes or no?

How far was that a big, significant change? Blah, blah, blah. Very. Whatever. You take your source A, source B, source D, so you're looking at your sources, you think what are these sources telling me? And I think, okay, I've got three sources here that are telling me it's a big deal one source

That's saying and maybe not and I'll say okay to this extent to quite a decent extent three quarters extent That's my perfect little essay done great a star move on to a level I'm doing probably the same thing when I find myself sat down for some reason actually I did a gap year, like I did an access course in between, and I feel like I probably started this on my access course and then really felt so that's how I came into my degree when I was doing history was something clicked where I would read the question to what extent was da da da a big change, to what extent was Hitler a bad guy?

And instead of thinking, okay, what are the sources saying? What's the teacher been giving me? What's all this literature in front of me? What's this historiography leaning towards? I would just push it away for a second. I would think, what do I actually think though? What would my actual answer be? Okay, my answer would be, yeah, pretty horrific guy. And let me find my sources to back it up and then I would filter my answer, my genuine response because I'm obviously thinking that for a reason it will naturally be because of the sources and the historiography so I may as well answer what I actually believe in and show how the sources back that up rather than let the sources lead me if that makes

sense. Yeah, also you're only given selective sources in like a history exam for example. Right. They're leading you in a particular way anyway. Yes and I would always encourage you to argue it in a weird if you're still doing your GCSEs like argue a weird thing and just back it up with your sources and you're 100% I think the same for English as well it's like any subjects where you really can as they say there's no wrong answers there's no wrong answers it's like okay then push that to the limit that's why you're good at it guys like that's what this is it's about just like have you ever been sat in an office and thought i'm good at yapping or i'm good i'm good at swinging something i can twist this also i think people want to be

surprised like i wouldn't say do something too crazy. I definitely got in... I actually had a meeting after my English language mock exam and they were like you can't do that because I had written the whole thing. It was like write a piece from a magazine about this. Like it was a thing but I did it from like a teen magazine and I was like yeah like bitches like like kind of like sort of like putting like like in all the time and things like that and they were like you're gonna fail like if you do things like that like it's like you know be almost the examiner doesn't know that you're coming from a place of intelligence beyond what the exam is offering I know

as your teacher what you're doing here but but it might not land you're gonna fucking fail yeah like don't do that I guess you're doing it you're doing irony and is the examiner going to understand Persephone's irony? If they think that you use the word like yeah, and you're like, hey girls Yeah, like it's just like you don't need to write guys you guys know and I brought that up because now I think So I can't help but formulate my own opinions on things and generally my opinions is pretty much whatever analysis thinking But sometimes I'm so shocked to see the amount of shit things and generally my opinions is pretty much whatever else is thinking but sometimes i'm so shocked to see the amount of shit especially on like the internet especially on social media that i'm like have you guys had a conscious thought in the past six months like where are

your brains like what are you even saying why are you typing that you don't mean that you don't even think that yeah you're even like but that's why this conversation is so frustrating because it kind of seems quite obvious in a way but it seems to but also the arguments have become polarized in a way that's like but you're missing the huge bit of context that we're about to tell you you guys you found the only place on the internet that has the right opinion. thank god for that. thank goodness. but i was so shocked that we... well i wasn't really that shocked but it's so like validating when it's like okay so i think it's this thing and it's like yep same page love it. yeah. okay. okay. so shall we set the scene?

yeah go on let's do it. okay so... oh god i hate to be the one to oh god, I hate to be the one to do this. I hate to do this. I know, he's always like, and the scene is? Yeah, it's like, and this could be, it was a perfect little succinct roundup. Okay, so it ends with us. I know you've seen it. I know you've seen it somewhere. The book, the film. 100%.

Colleen Hoover book absolutely blew up over the past few years, especially like on TikTok with young women, predominantly predominantly like actually girls on the internet and like there was a lot of conversation already about the marketing and the conversation around it being super like girly flowery fun whatever like oh sexy whatever blah blah blah but there are some really really heavy themes and moments in the book at the same time. Yeah. Sefi and I both of the pretty firm believe that it's a terrible book, like a bad book. This is also, I think this is the

huge bit of context that the whole conversation is ignoring. The conversation seems to be Blake Lively has sort of underplayed like the serious themes of domestic abuse within this book which is valid if we were talking about a book that is seriously exploring all of these themes. I think the huge thing that this whole conversation is missing is, has anyone fucking read this book? The fact that this whole book is written as a letter towards Ellen DeGeneres. This is not a serious book about domestic violence. Genuinely, when I was reading this book, I got halfway through and I don't actually think, and I'm so sorry if you love this book, like I am so sorry and I've actually I don't actually think and I'm

so sorry if you love this book like I am so sorry because I do think the books we love are so fucking special and I'm not taking anything away from your experience of that reading that book but I physically thought it was the worst thing I've ever read like I genuinely could not finish it like I could not get through it the letters to Ellen DeGeneres, the flower shop with black flowers around it, chains around the flowers. I remember actually being on a date like when I was in the middle of trying to get through this book and like telling them about it and obviously it just comes out like such a joke like when you actually give the plot of this

film of this book it is laughable and I never finished this book and I wanted to love it because I saw all of this hype but I do think that we have have have to acknowledge that this is like whether you have a personal connection to this book or whatever this is a badly written book that it's a tiktok book like it is badly written and and that changes things that changes the entire conversation yes and okay so in this scene where this book is really blown up the film is being made Blake Lively is in it she's a producer and this guy Justin Baldoni and I don't it's really not that big of a deal if I'm not I don't

bother correcting me it's fine yeah that big of a deal. If I'm not, don't bother correcting me, it's fine. None of us hear mine, do we? Personally, I don't. The conversation seems to be around these two big players, Blake Lively and this guy, Justin Valdoni, playing, marketing, talking about this project from really, really different angles. And people seem to be kind of flitting between

which one is right and which one is wrong. And I think most people that I've seen have agreed that whatever they think, they don't like Blake Lively. That's for sure, is what I've seen. And I've seen people kind of be hit and miss about Justin Baldoni because he's getting a lot of flak. He seems to be in a bit of a bit of hot water with the cast he seems to be in a little bit of hot water publicly because he's taken on

the same lawyer or PR team from the johnny depp case a couple years ago so i mean that's actually insane there's a lot going on but also especially when you're doing a film that is about domestic abuse maybe don't take on the lawyer that literally destroyed a woman's reputation so publicly. like it's pretty insane. okay so from this point out i think this conversation is going to be under the guise of like you guys know what we know because we won't be able to stop and fill you in on every single detail of this silly little story. no and to be honest i'm sure you've had them ram down your throat by social media anyway. Yeah, you probably get the gist. And also like, fine. Whatever. You'll-

Yeah. I mean, this will be over within a week's time. Yeah. So, shall we go in with our takes? Yeah, go on. Okay, so our takes basically were, as we said, this is not a serious book. Justin Baldoni's attempt as a man to take on this book and take on this project as a film and market it as a very serious, very important and dark and deep story about domestic violence, I think, is really futile and misplaced. and I actually would push it as insulting. He thought maybe, I don't know the guy, but maybe he thought this is a great, I'm assuming this is his directorial debut. I haven't seen him direct anything else.

No, I know he was in Ugly Betty, that's like it. Yeah, he's been around, but I don't know if he's think I feel like this might be his biggest like personal like project. Well to be honest it's the first time I'm hearing his name so for sure and boy have I heard it. I feel like he kind of thought okay I can take this book it's super super popular and like it's been treated as this really light thing but actually it's super serious and I'm really gonna give it the weight that it deserves whilst also speaking publicly about how he's a man and he cannot even begin to understand the perspectives of a woman and therefore we need to make this story feel like it comes from a woman as much as possible

and really ground it so why so why question mark am I hearing your name why are you still doing why are you insist? If you know ultimately this is a woman's tale, why oh why oh why oh I beg of you? Are you so insistent not only directing it but also being the star? The absolute freaking star. It's pretty crazy. And also pushing it to be from your angle of this is super dark. So what I'm seeing is that's the bit that I don't like. She's out here saying get your girls, get your florals, this is a movie about multitudes, women can be survivors and victims and also women in their own right and living their life and having fun and having love and all of this shit whatever. Look at this gorgeous dress, it's fashion, it's fashion, it's fun.

But that would be an annoying message. I do think that is an annoying way to approach a movie that is about domestic abuse but that is an annoying way to approach a movie that is about domestic abuse but that is not exactly what this film is like the way that it's being discussed is so separated from like the source material now that we're discussing it in the way that Justin thought he was making it he I don't know what happened when he read the fucking book he must have thought that he read a serious book though I, I think, I actually think and maybe I'm projecting in a bit of a sick way, but I think if I'm a man and I see this book is really blown up and I have this production coming

out, I'm trying to find all these like projects that I can really like make, not necessarily make my own, but make big, make some money off of, have loads of artistic direction, like really like be creatively fulfilled in something. He maybe is seeing this as a big opportunity of something that hasn't been given the weight it deserves, something that hasn't been given the depth, that space that it deserves, almost like no one understands that this is really about domestic violence, why is everyone treating this as a lightweight book? But also it hasn't been given the weight that it deserves for what it is.

Right, it is being treated as a lightweight book because it functions so much as a lightweight book and that I think is why like Lively's angle of marketing, I think, like marketing her haircare brand and her alcohol brand and her drinks brand and talking about fashion and stuff is more aligned with conversation around the project as a whole because it is lightweight because it's about Lily Blossom Bloom. Try and make a serious movie Justin Baldoni. What are you gonna do when you get to the scene where the

character introduced herself, hi I'm Lily Blossom Bloom. How's that gonna work? I did not know the middle name was Blossom which is absolutely insane. I think I've forgotten that. This is totally a lost cause. how did you think you were gonna get away with spinning this as a very serious director, actor, movie. when the fucking character is called lily blossom bloom. when there's a neurosurgeon. it gets even worse than that. it literally gets worse somehow than lily bloom. excuse me? the fact that the fucking guy's name is rile is actually insane. Like, a neurosurgeon I think he is. Or like some kind of surgeon called Ryle.

I wanna watch it so bad. And the fucking homeless guy called Atlas, like there is so much. Yeah. I think it's like when you're making, like the poster that he made of this film is like a sort of black and white art house, like A24 sort of movie that he thought he was making. He's presenting a subtlety that just isn't there. Which tells us... There is no subtlety in this.

It tells us the whole conversation is flawed because he genuinely somehow thinks he is making a different thing. Like what he thought he was making and what the source material of the book is and what the film should be. There should of course be a film of this but it should not be directed by someone that clearly does not understand what he's making. Yeah, yeah and that's why, that's also why I think it's so sinister to then turn Blake Lively specifically and her angle specifically into something that's apparently villainous

when she's kind of just a woman doing her job. She's kind of just the only one here in the team who's like, actually this film isn't just about domestic violence, it's also about Lily Blossom Bloom, ha ha, it's also about Atlas, ha ha, it's also about Ellen Degeneres, ha ha, it's also about likeness and like. A woman. A woman, yeah.

Justin, you don't get it, You actually don't get what you're trying. And I do think there's so much for men to gain publicly when they take up this space and they function in the public eye as a very nice, decent guy. As someone who really gets it and who's really progressive and is really like thinking critically about gender and gender stereotypes and like I think it's a little bit like I'll always kind of err on the side of caution but I'll never be really like ecstatic to start handing out medals for people who are doing the bare minimum. Go back to school with Rogers and get Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. Perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night.

Save up to $20 per month on Rogers' internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you, Rogers. No, I mean he definitely does not deserve a medal but I also don't think there's... I don't particularly read him as like a sinister character. No. As in Justin, not Ryle. I do read Ryle as a bit crazy I would say, a little bit of a sinister character I must

say. But I would say that like I don't necessarily see Justin as like going out to do like a... I don't think what he's done is actually wrong. I think he just completely misunderstood it. Like he read something that wasn't there. I think it's like, yeah, he's made a mistake, I think. I think he's misjudged what the project was. But then I think when you consider that he's coming in, I think selfishly taking this on as his project and it's actually like, it's not an author that I love personally but it's a female author and a women's story.

Loved by women as well, it's for women which is the crucial bit. Loved by so many women, so many girls. That is a little bit like, at what point does your innocent mistake become, I don't think he's necessarily like inherently bad guy, I'm sure he like is really nice and normal. But I think when it's taken, when it's got to the point where all your cast are unfollowing you, and everyone seems to have such a different opinion of you, of what, than you, of what this story should be, it does seem a little bit like if you're that determined to turn this thing that isn't yours into something that only looks like the way you want it to look, that

is a little bit... i don't know if he's a bad guy but it is... i think there's... but i don't know how it's got to that point. like i literally don't know how it got to the point that the film has been made and they're both... him and blake lively are like... he's... blake's hiring a different editor and doing like... i do think there are things that she's done which are fucking crazy. Like, I do not think that is, that is okay at all. But I also think I don't understand how it has got to the point where, how on earth did the writer hand this over to him? How on earth did a studio hand this over to him when surely in all these meetings, he's telling a different story to what everyone else read?

Hmm. I think it's just difficult because I also kind of think, look I don't know much about this, but I can imagine Colleen Hoover herself having a little bit of like, she's written this book. I can only imagine that if you've written a book and it just is what it is and it is, to use Blake's word, it is multitudes, it is super deep. It is like, okay, you're not shying away from like, okay, you're not shying away from like, okay, you're going there, you're putting some horrific shit in there. And you're also lacing it with florals, et cetera.

And romance, like that is one of the huge things. And huge romance. I do think you would be really susceptible and really open to whoever's coming your way in terms of like what they're gonna do for your project. So I don't know if that's fucked up to like infantilize her or make her seem like more naive than she is, but I can imagine, I don't know if she's had any other work

that she's done be taken as a movie. I think this is her biggest book. Yeah, and I feel like she probably was quite open to, naive is a rude word, but I imagine she was pretty open to and receiving to whatever she was kind of given, as you would be, not a crime. But then I think it's then when you start getting the bigger teams, the wider groups coming in,

in terms of producing a film, it's much more than just who wrote it, who one person directed it whatever when all of those opinions and like Businesses come in and start shifting it in a certain direction. I do really get the instinct to be like There are themes of domestic violence in this therefore everyone pushing it as like florals is undermining it I just don't think that's necessarily true. I think marketing it as florals is actually more true to the story. Totally.

In every way. I do think the Blake Lively sort of angle we haven't yeah, gone into enough I don't think because what I assume everyone's been saying on the internet, because I've been saying it a lot, is like resurfacing clips of like old blake lively stuff which i do think i'm kind of in two minds about like i do i think it's fucked that they're resurfacing within the angle of like she's a horrible evil person in regards to this film like i think her i agree with her in in so many ways in this argument but i do think some of the clips that i've been seeing are really fucking bad and i do think some of the clips that I've been seeing are really fucking bad and I do think people should be held accountable to bad things that they've done in life. And

I think that things are really separate. Like she has acted in loads of ways quite fairly in this instant, but I do think it's helpful to also see clips of things she said 10 years ago that are frankly pretty fucking outrageous. And I do think it's helpful to also see clips of things she said 10 years ago that are frankly pretty fucking outrageous and I do think she should have to apologise for these things. But it's a shame that they've come up in this context because it kind of confuses the argument. I think it's just then it becomes really telling of like, you know the kind of like, well what about-ism vibe of like, do you actually care about how this film about domestic violence is being marketed, or is it just like really convenient to also kind of pile in some old clips?

And it's totally- Blake Lively was so loved, like literally, this time last year. Like every time she's on the Met, it's like huge. Everything she does is like, oh, she's so cool. Da da da da da da, we love, we love, we love. Everything she does. And then it's-

Which is why these clips are important to see these things, I think. Of course. I think it's important even just to re-contextualize everybody as human beings of like, yeah, don't the pedestals and then the drop, like the pedestals and pits, like the literally dragging them to the pits of hell and then lifting them back up, they can do no wrong, and then dragging drop, like the pedestals and pits, like the literally dragging them to the pits of hell

and then lifting them back up, they can do no wrong, and then dragging them again. Like Chappell Rhone, everybody is going through this up and da da da da da da da da da. It's so boring and I find it so boring and so sad when it pretty much always focuses on women. And it's just so knackering and a bit dumb and a bit silly and a bit of a waste of time.

Yeah, especially when the whole conversation, this is why I mean that it's a shame that it's come up in this way, when the whole conversation is about creating a film for women that women loved, about women, not really, but should have been by women. It really is a shame that then the main message that's come away from it is that the star of the film was a bit of an arsehole. Is a bitch. Yeah.

She's such a bitch. You know what, as well, it reminds me of something you said in another episode, maybe the one, last one of the one before, because all we've been doing recently is speaking about being mothers and giving birth and having men in our lives, et cetera. And you were like, it's the classic thing of when a man is like, for example, in a straight relationship, woman is pregnant and a man is just there having the mother's life.

And he loves to say like, oh, I wish I could just do that. Oh, he'll definitely say it. I wish I could just give birth or I wish I could just have the baby. I wish I could just do that. Oh he'll definitely say it. I wish I could just give birth or I wish I could just have the baby. I wish I could do this for you. I wish I could do that for you and then the minute something arises that they could do for you for example taking your name was the thing that we were discussing. Letting the child have your name. Damn I actually can't do that. I wish I wish I wish until. Is that oh I wish I could do that go on then oh no I don't want to right okay so that's the crux. But even the most minute thing I wish I wish I wish until I wish I could do that go on then oh no I don't want to write Okay, that's my new thing. I wish I could do this massive thing for you. Okay, so do this tiny thing for me

Oh, no, I can't really so upset my dad. My dad will probably be quite set if I do that. Sorry Yeah, I wish I could do that for you and then immediately is presented with something they could do Oh conveniently they don't do it Yeah, and that to me is the Justin Palt only thing. I don't know anything about this guy and I'm speaking so vaguely about him. But just the idea of being like- I kind of don't have negative thoughts towards him. I just think he's a bit dumb and read the script wrong. I literally did not know what he was making. I think that is quite criminal because it's a women's story.

But that's the thing. Leave it to women that do understand it then. It's like, yeah, accidentally stepping on the toes of an author and it's tale as old as time but it is problematic when you zoom out and see this man has taken on this one, like also I'll shit on the book till my dying day but this woman has made a complete phenomenon. Like oh my god it's fucking massive and people love it and that is so important. It means a lot to people. You cannot take away the success of that book from this woman, Colleen Hoover. And so yeah, it's not the craziest thing in the world for a guy to like, oops, like, yeah, I signed onto this project or like, oh, I want to direct that. That's not a crime. And to want to do a good job, it's not a crime. It's actually amazing. And I do think that

there was a huge, there seems to be like a real conversation at least of like an awareness of I want this to be really good for women. I want this to be a story for women. But I do think that, I think there's a lapse of judgement there. And that does become problematic when it is this one guy has more power over all the women in that team, that one woman story, all the women who love it, all the women who are trying to make it be something. It is a little bit like- And crucially when he's telling it wrong, I think that is the frustration of like, we all get why you're telling it wrong, but you don't seem to really understand why. But he's determined.

It's essential. You want, you don't want it to be what it is. You can't change it into something else. Because, also the crucial thing, because you probably look down on that source material, if you saw this for what it was, you would see this as silly, trashy and all of the things which to be honest I also would be kind of in agreement with Justin Baldoni on that, but makes me the wrong person to tell that story. Exactly. Yes and that's the crux.

It really is. You wanted the crux and you got it. There it is. That's the people. Okay, and I know you've been desperate to hear the right opinion on that. And now you've got it. And I hope you, and also crucially, you do not have to agree.

You really don't. No, you don't. I would love to know your opinion on this. I would actually love, love, love. My whole annoyance with this topic has been that it's been so polarised and no one seems to Have any opinions on it that aren't just like the one they saw the day before it's just like oh I saw that clip of Blake Lively what bitch or just I think that film's gonna be shit

Well, and to be honest, I did see that clip of Blake Lively and thought what a bitch I hate that from the fact of who is right and wrong in this story in my in my recent years I've really come to I actually have like a body my body repels the word bitch like I resent it so much. It depends who's saying it for me. I hate it so much I think like I used to be like whatever anyone can say that and now I even think I hate that I hate it so much. Really I don't mind it. There's someone that we love I know. And also sometimes I think like yeah I'm being a bitch. i can say about myself but i'm saying it in a really cutting it's i think it's such a heavy word. i mean the thought of a man calling me a bitch

is crazy. but then the thought of a woman calling a woman a bitch i'm like that is so crazy. like that is so crazy. i don't mind it. here we are, whoa, that in 2024 we've been bitches all our lives and here we are saying oh that girl in 2024, we've been bitches all our lives, and here we are saying, oh, that girl's a bitch. It's just so wild. Like, I don't know why it just suddenly has like really got to me. It's getting, yeah, I don't know, I- It's really getting me down.

Because I've never cared. Yeah, I think some people are though. But when I actually think about it, when I actually think about the state of the world where it's like, for example, all the shit we were talking about in the last episode of like these women are like bending over backwards and pumping out literally human life

Do you know what other women go? I didn't like that thing. She did bitch Whoa, go on then have him you can fucking have him. It's crazy. I think that is so much room to Critique the women and I do think bitchiness is a behavior that only really women sort of Understand between one and other. Like if a man is calling a woman bitch, I mean that's absolutely crazy because you could not even comprehend what it means to be a bitch. But I also think there's a bigger thing of like we are not each other's enemies here. Like let's remember It's almost Quirrell. You don't want me as your enemy. What is it? I'm not your enemy Quirrell. Yeah, no, you don't want me as your enemy. You don't want me as your enemy. What is it? I'm not your enemy Quirrell. Yeah no you don't want me as your enemy Quirrell. You don't want me as your enemy. And why would you? And it's kind of

the thing of regurgitating what other people are saying of like, did you mean that when you said bitch? Did you mean that? Did that word choice specifically, was that the one you were looking for? All of the history and everything that goes into that word, is that the one you wanted? Because that is so crazy. Sometimes yes, honestly. Sometimes yeah, fine. It's also like, people call me, not people, but like people in my real life have been like, oh my god, you always say that's so crazy

or that's so crazy, that's mental. And I'm like, yeah, sometimes that is the most effective word because word is about conveying so many things, not just like one thing. But that's also why I think to say bitch is like, whoa, is that what you meant? Bitch is so crazy I'm gobsmacked I've got my hand over I don't know why has anyone felt this like just the sudden switch of hating it I completely get it because I do think it was such a casual word like for

example like men could call women bitches I mean god I they so do, but not people that I would hang out with necessarily. Like, be like, oh don't be a bitch. But now I think that would have a certain like, excuse me, behind it. It stings, right? But I really don't have a problem with other women calling me a bitch because it's like, oh god, am I being a bitch? I think it has, there's like a level of like, if you're being a bitch, it's like you're sort of falling into those patriarchal traps of like being spiteful against women and all these things and i do think there is room for that to be acknowledged for women to be a bitch to be a bitch and to point out other bitchiness yeah but i think bitch calling

us someone a bitch as a noun and bitchiness and like bitching and all of those things as like something we do and a behaviour and a trait are really different. Like bitch is like... If you're gonna say you bitch that's crazy. Yeah or like... But I think you can say I don't know I think it's helpful. If someone was like she was being a bitch whatever like I don't care that much but I do care. It's a certain thing it has a... it means something that other words don't. I think there's a naivety that comes with using the word I feel like when you use that word you're holding your hands up and being like women are the weaker sex. I feel like

you're you know I feel like there's something about using that word bitch that it's just like and now we all give up and you have been so naive to the power that was chosen over Do I mean like I don't know why it just recently is like really like let's get let's get that one gone I think God well, I I'm not defending the word But I also do think it has it has a certain power that I don't think many others Have I mean if a man calls you a bitch guys literally go mental like that is not okay You'll have to kill him like unfortunately the law will just have to understand that you know the law in that case is exempt

like she had her reasons so she had to do that and we can all understand that. But also I think if I was to say god I'm being a bitch today you all know what I'm being. No but that's different about yourself. If I said Sefi you're being a bitch I would literally be like- I would know exactly what you mean. I'm speaking through the void I'm possessed by the 14 year old boy watching Andrew Tate. Like something came out of me and that wasn't me speaking. I think that's what gets me is like, if I was a woman to call another woman a bitch,

that was not from my voice. That was Voldemort. Hurry, I know I should directly do it. That wasn't my voice. That thought could never come from me. That was something that was given to me and now I'm regurg from me. That was something that was given to me and now I'm regurgitating it. That was something that was told to me as a child and I learnt it as a teenager and now I live it in my adult life and if I repeat it that was never mine to begin

with. The thought that I or another woman could be a bitch. Bitch. Bitch. Excuse me? Bitch, are you for real? Like, that's not my thought. That's death. It's kind of got the... Everybody's slain. Totally. It's got the bossy, loud, too much thing. It's just like, that was never mine. That was never mine.

I'm taking that from my boy. All of those things, it's like, no, that is absolutely not mine. Like, it's basically just another way for, also, i hate any design that um gets women to hate on other women but i also think there's so much room for women to slip into that behavior because it's just like that is um part of the patriarchy i don't like it because I don't like it. No of course it is, it's just absolutely grim. I think it's the grimmest part. What, the comparative, competitive bit? Yeah, the hatred, the self-hatred and the hatred of other women.

The pits. That to me is probably the greatest thing we've ever heard. The pits. That's not what bitch is to me. For us. But, totally agree. Also I'm not necessarily defending the word but I'm just thinking. But falling into that language of like, oh I yikes anyway so there are videos of her being a bitch signing off two big old bitches here signing off totally okay well I've liked this episode same same I feel very like we're being honest totally and also my really like big crux is if you love this book and this film, that's everything. Like, yeah, good for you. That the most I think genuinely the most precious things in the world are like the books and the films that you love. And just because

there's this big conversation about it does not take anything away from your experience with that thing. So please, please, please don't, I'm definitely gonna go and watch this film and enjoy it with you. Like definitely. I do think- I also think it's so important. I think it's probably one of the most important books

and now films that we'll have in the past decade. I think the consequences it's had on women specifically. But I don't like the consequences it's had on women. Well, I've seen a lot of the consequence being that women are starting to perceive their relationships differently in and out. Okay well that's amazing. Which I think is really really huge. And I also think it's brought on a lot of reading which is really important and lovely. It's like made well. It is, I just wish it was a better thing that people were reading. It's almost like yeah Twilight's a phenomenon but look at how it made us look at men for literally decades. Like these things, I don't necessarily think

it explores domestic abuse in the most responsible way. I don't necessarily think, I don't definitely, I definitely don't think it was well written and I don't think it's the best thing that women can be reading. I do think it's simplistic and dumbing people down, but I also think so, so many things that I enjoy. I just didn't happen to enjoy this one. But she loves that for you. I love it for you. Yeah.

Yeah. I love to just have a combo as we know. Always, and isn't it good to be back? Yeah, it's good to be back. It is really good to be back. I hate missing a few. Like, I don't think that's the longest that we've missed in years.

Uh, I think- Two weeks. I would love to come in with just like, angles, direction, and I would love a stronger connection between like, what you guys are saying and what we're saying back in response. I would love to like, really feel like, when you you guys want something we're on it. Join combo. Yeah and it's a really

like I want to feel like I'm not floating out in a void. I want to feel like I'm really at the out of the dust with you guys. That's bad. The floating in the void is bad. Yeah. And that's how that two weeks made me feel a bit like oh my god Distant Mist and like. I want a reframing, yeah. So, survey's coming your way potentially then guys. 100% Like, fuck it. Also like...

Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Cool. Okay. Well, oh my god, isn't this nice to say? If you don't hear from us, assume the worst.

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