Goes Without Saying - Is Dating Men Embarrassing Insecure Boyfriends Et Al

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on dating your co-worker, paying for first-dates, controlling men, and david harbour. ✷ see more ✷ youtube @sephyandwing ✷ instagram @sephyandwing ✷ tiktok @sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk

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So no matter what day of the week, Go's got you covered. Find out more at goadransit.com slash tickets. Goes Without Saying. You're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sethi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sethi. This is a spooky, spooky ebb. But the horror stories are never ending. It's always relevant. Dating is always insane. And men are always, from what we can see, pretty shit. We're talking, we're covering some ground here. There's some elements of like controlling, bizarre alarm bell, red flag sorts of behaviours and how to kind of deal with that in the real world. there were some very intriguing power dynamics and again feels very grounded in the real world of like these these men walk among us these are people that we see live with work with that we know this is a funny one and also i feel like goes to some very real places if you enjoy it thanks for being here bye hello hello this is um right on time this is the day before Halloween that we're recording this now yeah so some may say maybe when i say right on time i mean

cutting it fine. Early. No, no, we're early. We're early. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah. It feels good. It doesn't feel bad. Yeah, I'm excited.

We've got some spooky messages. They're extremely... Horrifying. Yeah, really horrifying. Very spooky stuff. Very, very spooky stuff. How are you feeling? You're feeling quite spooked at the moment.

Are you having any dating horror stories of your own? I am having no dating horror stories. Good, I am not dating at the moment at all. I think that's probably for the best. Am I having any dating horror stories? I'm hearing me. them left right and center i'm just feeling really really un compelled to date currently i think it's i actually think that is probably the best case scenario considering the intensity of some recent events

wait so shall well i think let's get into it in a proper next episode like this is like a you know we're doing dating horror stories here yeah i've had concussion that wasn't what i meant but yeah have been concussed what did you mean i just meant like there was some really consuming Oh, God. There's just a big consuming. Yeah, yeah. There was some stuff going on. There's been stuff going on.

I'm, which have led me to feel, what is it, uncompelled to date. You've decented men. Unintentionally. No, no, men have been decensored. Yeah. But they've always just been slightly to the left. You know, they've just been over there. Yeah.

They've been there. I've been majorly concussed, but let's talk about another episode. Yeah. Okay. Jesus Christ has been a big, we're assuming the worst on all fronts, I think, at the moment. Yeah. I thought that earlier. I thought it would be nice when we can,

in the next one, when we're not talking about anything real. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We can just talk about ourselves. Yeah. Okay. But right now, horror stories. Yeah.

And are you feeling, are you feeling spooky or how's the vibes? I'm feeling so spooky. Are you? I don't want to take it away from dating horror stories, but I've been really doing quite a lot of tarot. That's fun. I need to, I think.

Yeah, I think that's just what I need. No, no, we should. We should. Yeah. Well, have you got cards to hand now? I do. I always do. Just maybe.

That's what I thought. Maybe you could take us just for a quick spin. They were in the shot the whole time. Nice. Okay. Because mine are far away. Yeah. I have the rideaway deck.

I also pulled the hanged man when I had my concussion. Which is like all about like being in a state of suspension. And I was like. To be clear, she was really concussed. Oh, look. Well, getting to it. I like had to go to A&E twice. I had two different brain scans.

It's not good. They thought I had an inflamed vein in my head. It was not fucking good. No, it wasn't. I can't wait to get into it. I can't wait to get into it, but I literally did not leave the house for a week. It was fucking,

didn't barely go out of bed for a week. It's fucking horrendous. Okay. We've got the page of ones reversed. Oh, when they're reversed, it gives me a bit of a... Should we Google him? Yeah.

Page of ones. I feel like it's quite a one. Okay, okay. Okay, go on. Something bad. Yeah, go on. Okay, right. It's like,

flop era continues. Good luck getting out of this one, girls. You are perpetually doomed to suffer in a state of... So, yeah. It typically signifies a lack of inspiration, creative blocks or feeling stuck in a rut at work. Scattered energy. What a way to start an episode. Scattered energy.

Okay. Okay. It also says poor financial decisions may be causing present-day problems. Lovely. Lovely. It's ringing true. The cards don't lie. Scattered across projects.

Yeah. Basically, scattered is a recurring word. I mean, we're feeling it, aren't we? Look, we're getting back into it. But we haven't been doing this. We're out of practice. We've got new systems in a place that we keep talking about. Yeah.

We've got exciting things brewing. We do. It's classic chaos in the Sephian Wing universe, cinematic universe. As it always is. Yeah. It's all good, but it's all a lot, you know. I definitely feel. I mean, so, well, let's not do it now, the post-credit scene, but I do, I've liked our episodes

recently. Me too. I know, this is also the thing. We've got so, like, we've never felt more passionate and good in the podcast and stuff, but we've also both just got real world shit going on, aka depression and concussion, going on. And they go hand and hand. They go hand and hand.

They go hand and hand. What did I con a duo? SEPI and way. Okay. I've got a spooky psychiatrist appointment. Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to be so spooky tomorrow. By the time you're hearing this,

I'll be hearing all sorts of good things about the goings on of my brain. So that's pretty spook. What a fun time to have an appointment with a psychiatrist. 8 p.m. on Halloween. On Halloween night. I wonder if they'll acknowledge it. Well, I said to my therapist, I'm just going to, because I've never met this person, the psychiatrist, and I said a joke to my therapist the other day, which I love to do.

Because every session is an opportunity to win her over. Totally. And I said, I'm going to come on the call, like, in full costume with, like, face pain and, like, not acknowledge it and get, like, a really severe diagnosis. Then you will at least get some really heavy medication. Yeah. At least. We do what we have to do.

Yeah. Okay, so spooky vibes. Should we just get straight in? Let's go fucking straight in. Some of these are really extremely bad. First of all, thank you for being here just for the spooky times. Like, this is also one of our favourite episodes of the year whenever we do this. Yeah.

We have so much fun, like, reading. Because last year they were fucking insane. Do you remember the ventriloquist one? I think about it all the time. Oh, I don't. Someone had, I literally think about it all the time. Someone went on a date. The date came out, they went back to the dates.

He showed up in a tuxedo. Wait! That's his house and he had a ventriloquist dummy on his hand. He was, like, talking via that. Wait, that's fucking crazy. Well, you should go back and listen to last year's. Yeah, there are three. We did a trilogy.

Maybe you haven't it already. Yeah, this year we've cut down. We've just got one this year. But look, we've been depressed and concast. Get across some slum. I thought this was crazy. This is just, okay, so we're going to start off. Maybe we're just some short and sweet.

Yeah, just some appetizers. Yeah, just some appetizers. Get the pallet moving. Yeah, yeah, get things going. And I have such strong feelings about that. this. And I can imagine some people feeling differently. No, no, I can't. Okay, this person said, went on a date with a millionaire who only let me have tap water at the meal and then abandoned me at the club. That to me is secondary to only having tap water at the meal. Let, I think,

is quite crazy. Yeah. Let. Millionaire. Tap water. And are they still available? I wonder. I wonder. Although if we're only getting tap water onto it. How crazy is that? Am I not allowed to order my own drink like i'll cover the cost isn't that nuts i'm happy to pay for my drink that is quite insane so bad where did they meet is that all the information we have yeah it's annoying i know i just think i actually have a personal well not personal in the sense that it's happening to me but like i have like a a really strong reaction to people who like are extremely wealthy and selfish with their wealth yeah i think that also they come together it's quite common I don't think it's, I actually think that's like a trait of rich people.

Always having well. Also, it's a huge thing I've noticed as well for rich people to like dole out like a fucking tiny bit of money and people say they're so generous, they're so generous. Or rich people share one of their huge, one of their resources. They're so generous. They're so generous. But it's like proportionally they gave you fucking 20p to what you love. It really isn't generous.

Yes. Yes. I agree. Stop praising rich people. I agree. For doing the bare minimum. minimum. You really you really do need to go above and beyond I think it's your duty. It's like if you get to have loads and loads of money you really do have to um offload it. Cover the cost of other

people yeah no I think yeah no very much very much and I have no shame amongst friends as well I just think it's like I don't I don't know I just think it's like richer people should pay more I agree tax you know reparation tax I agree like yeah so charge this guy send an invoice over yeah and I'm actually specifically talking about like generational wealth as well of course and particularly like in terms of like with a guy on a date well what are your thoughts on a guy paying on a date i feel like this just because i have mixed use i get it i get it there's something here that upholds i think it's important to make the distinction between a man not paying for a date because you are not like a full and complete human who like has enough money in the bank to pay for your whatever you did on the date yeah but do you remember

when slum flowers said something like, no, I will make you pay on a date because that's my reparations for not being able to walk my dog after 10pm or something. Or just like, I've got to this date covered in makeup, which I paid for because of Patriarchic standard is the fact I have to get an Uber back and the fact that I'm even going on this is a risk for my life meeting you. It's about equity, not necessarily equality and it is about being proportionate. I think like if you, I mean, I wouldn't recommend this, but if you went on a date with someone who had no money.

If you are a woman going on a date with a man who has no money, yeah, first of all, I just wouldn't recommend that. I actually think that it's a feminist issue. I wouldn't recommend it. I think also, like, I've done dated guys that have had, like, no money. And it's actually not necessarily even them having no money that was a problem. It was the fact that what they were choosing to spend the money on, they did have money.

Because I think the truth was they did have money, but they were spending it on a lot of alcohol. And it was actually pointing to, like, other issues, I think. Right. Well, and it also is about. generosity in the sense that then someone could have tons of money but if they don't ever I think it's about seeing your value as well it's like you must see my value and want to be generous with what you have I think it's even beyond like how much money do you actually have

but like just your core values as a person do you know I don't know that I think the thing that slumflower said when she was talking about this that really stuck with me she was like why does men's equality only come in when it benefits them? When it comes to splitting the bill, what else do you do for women's equality? But suddenly when you have to pay more, let's do this equally. It's like, oh, should we carry that idea of equality through

to other things that don't benefit you? Come on, guys. They don't speak up then. No, no, because they don't care. But I also, like, just in my own, I do tend to, like, for first dates, like, to split it. I probably would. Just, I don't.

I don't like is I do not like, I think there's a huge red flag, a man that needs to pay. I've had people before, like friends that would say that even when they were paying, like them as a girl was paying, the guy would take their card and tap it because they wouldn't be okay with like not being seen to pay. And things like that. That's insane. People you know, people you know have done that. People I know like who?

I don't want to say it on this just because it's all getting recorded. But like, I fucking hope it's getting recorded. That's a technical dilemma on my head. Is this, can I make a guess? Yeah. Is it? No, no, no. It was a girl that we know's boyfriend did that.

God. Yeah. That is absolutely fucking mortifying. Death penalty. No, genuinely. I don't know what else to do in that situation. What are you here for? Oh, no, I'm sorry.

Yes. I know. I know. But yeah, if I went on a date with a random guy, I would obviously be like, let's just split it. whatever, blah, blah, blah. But once I'm invested in you and I know you and whatever, and if I know that you have money to spend,

if you have money to spend, I would expect me to be a part of that thing that you spend money on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, exactly. What do you think this was? You pay the price. I agree. And also money has been, for me, in romantic things.

It has definitely come up as an issue. And I never ever thought it really would be an issue. But then when I was actually being met with like the thing of like, let's not go out tonight let's not do anything with our lives let's just sit in and do nothing I didn't like it so much it did become an issue but it was more about the prioritisation of the spending rather than there was money there or like there was a normal amount of money he worked but the money was being spent on shit yeah and also like have we not I'm sure most people here I would imagine.

Otherwise, I'd be very shocked by our audience. And I would say, hey, guys, stop bringing the donations in. But I would imagine that most people here have experienced in some way what it feels like to live with not enough money. Yeah. Of course, if you bring that into a relationship, you feel the impact and the weight of that. Of course. Of course you do. Good.

If you're interested in this conversation, you should watch the materialist. I just thought that. But I thought it's not worth recommending. But they do quite a good job of exploring all that. It is interesting, yeah. But it is my thing with Dakota Johnson that I was like, she's trying to tell me a secret. What you can't really get what she's saying.

Yeah, it's like she's saying something and she kind of says it with a wink, but it's like, but you're not saying it. Like the script will just be like, should we go outside? But she says it like, should we go outside? And it's like, yeah. Dakota, what are you telling me here? I don't get it. I have to admit, I'm not a fan.

I really, really, really truly truly. sick to death of nepo babies i am actually like i've had it up to here with them i cannot i literally i'm so uninterested in just like quite mediocre people being at the top at the top at the top at the top is i liked your parents what but who the fuck are you i can't deal with it more talented people please please sorry this is fun it this is something that we quite well we've spoken about this things like this. It's almost a moment where something breaks through the cracks and you see them, you see a mannerism or something that is who they are and it just paints them in a different life. Just very, very quick and simple. He impersonated a shark in the middle of the bar.

I was mortified. This was 20 minutes in to a first date. Impersonating a shark is a pretty big, not red flag. It's not. It's not. God, alarm bells ringing in. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. What if they pull it off? think impressions, I'm relatively anti-impressions, I think. Was there someone who did a Tweety Bird impression? Can I say that? Yeah, who was that? I can't remember. Why is that literally being such a bell? Who was that? I think it was someone that we shouldn't say any more about.

Was it recent? Really? Who the fuck is that then? Just between me and you? I think it was the guy who goes out saying. Oh my God, I think it was him. What did he do? What is a Tweety Bird impression? I thought it was a Tweety Bird impression. But what is that?

I thought it was like, oh no, that's like Tom and Jerry. You know, it's bad. Whatever it was, I remember not liking it. Yeah, no, that was also someone. This is, I am anti-impressions. There was someone, you must remember this. Anti-impressions. I'm not anti-impressions.

I'm anti-impressions. Having a moment. Probably the fucking moment. It's just something he's in his own world. Please. I can't. I cannot deal with it. It's giving ventraliquist dummy vibes.

We live together. at this time. I was like seeing this guy and he did an impression of, is it from South Park? Is his name? But I can't even say it. He just went, Eric Cuthman or something.

I can't deal with it. It's so vulnerable. I hate it so much. I guess because it's a moment in, if it's like first date, second date territory or if it's like that sort of situation where it's like it's all so heightened, you're not letting your guard down really yet.

And an impression is very much. much like you just showed me something. I don't know quite what to make of it. I don't know why impressions they make me, like, it's almost like, I don't need to know what you watch. What I'm fucking Horne Michaels? It's fucking S&L. Like, give me a break.

It's too much. It just has to be so good. And also, if your joke is going, Eric Karmament, it's like, I don't know what that is. I mean, we did already have the podcast by this point, so it's maybe a red flag from us. But I feel like I, I remember winning. you over that night that we spent our hotel together. Yeah, yeah. And I was doing impressions

of all sorts of things and I remember you were loving them and I thought these are going down really well. I mean, I think you'd won me over a long time before that. You were already one over, I guess, I guess. But almost what I'm trying to say is I guess if they're hitting a reference that's living in the back of your brain somewhere,

that being acknowledged can be really like, whoa, you just like broke something open for me. Tweety Bird is not... But Tweety Bird is not... Wasn't one of them. I literally had like that out. I don't know why that one I remember. I hate it so much.

I think I just don't get it. Also, it's like you have to be adding something to it. There needs to be some kind of layer to it. Like, why am I just? Oh, God. Impression of a shark is hilarious because it's slack. How do you? I wonder if he did a fin.

No, he definitely. Duda. 100%. Oh, my God, I hate it. God, it's funny. Okay, okay. It's like, why are you in a swimming pool? Is that me in year three in a swimming pool?

It's just too good. It's almost like the first 20 minutes. It's just everything is up for analysis at that point. Like, everything is a moment. Everything is going to be sent back in a text to somebody else in the debrief. Yeah, just know she's gone to the toilet and said he just did an impression of a time. She's written it into a podcast. Oh, God.

That's embarrassing. Because also, I like, I like the silliness. I like there being room for silliness on a day. Of course. Have a personality. Yeah, sure. But that I don't like. If they're already pushing their luck,

if you're already not really kind of won over and there's like, it's not really, the look is like it's not landing. You've just made a fall of yourself, I also think there needs to be an element of confidence, both on a day and also in an impression. And I think it's like, if you cannot deliver this,

if you cannot execute this fucking impression with like no hint of insecurity, don't do it. Like, if I see you blush after it, I can't. Oh, God. I was actually giving me shivers. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. Okay, should we get into some long ones?

Yeah, that was definitely spooky to me. Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. Okay, so, right, let's just get in. Just going to do it. Okay, this is kind of long, but I need to know if I'm losing my mind. Okay. I think they are because I just quickly run ahead. I've been with my boyfriend for over a year, so let's keep that in mind.

That's the territory we're at. Okay. She said, things are serious. We've already signed to live together next year when I start my PhD. and we've got this huge trip to Asia and Australia booked for next summer. It's not casual. No, that doesn't sound casual. And it's actually good to remind us of that right at the beat.

Just really keep that in mind. Before we start coming in with the let this one go and da-da-da-da-da. Just keep that in mind. This is meaningful. And we're locked in to live together. That's an important part. We've signed to live together next year when I start my PhD. And we've got a huge trip to Asia and Australia booked for next year.

I'll see you on the surf. I'll see you on the waves. Doing shark impressions out there. Okay, this is where it goes south immediately. He's not controlling in the obvious ways. Doesn't care if I go out. He does it subtly and more menadiously. Okay.

Doesn't care if I go out, hang out with people at uni or talk to guys at work, it's not that. There's a other side of him that's really particular, and I can't tell if it's just his personality or something darker. Could be both. Why limit ourselves? So just one. He has these weird microreactions to stuff. If I wear something different from usual or change my hair, he'll say that doesn't feel like me.

Not in a mean way, just a quiet disapproval. I got my nails done dark blue the other week and he was silent the whole drive home. When I asked what was wrong, he just said it threw him off and didn't feel like me. No, you just don't like it. You just don't like that. Last weekend, we were meeting his friends. Oh, God. What?

And he asked me to send him a photo of what I was wearing before I left. He asked me to send him a photo of what I was wearing before I left so we could look like a unit. I thought he was joking and he wasn't. He wanted to check my outfit. I don't like the hidden thing there of like, oh, just so we can match. Also, why are you trying to match? No, so we can look like a unit.

Yeah, that's weird. Why are you trying to match? Well, are you trying to match? Or are you just trying to check my outfit? No, exactly. But even the premise is weird. Like, why? Yeah, right, silly excuse.

What, you want to wear like a sort of a coordinated? Oh, wear a red tie. I guess. Excuse me? No. Little mix. I'll be Jade. Yeah, I'm in a black top with a run.

You're in the skirt version. Okay, yeah, it is. Before we do like an event of being like, okay, perfect. The outfits go. Yeah. Tonally it works. What the fuck. He started commenting on my Instagram posts in private saying that one doesn't

feel like you. That caption doesn't feel like you. What was... Sorry, what did. Are you the fucking police of what is that? But then she said it's never said in a mean tone, which makes it feel worse somehow. He's kind of.

and always feels reasonable, so I end up doubting myself every time. I know he loves me and I do love him, but I keep getting this panic that I'm being, this is horrible, slowly shaped into something he's decided I am. Then I feel insane for thinking that because everything else between us is good. He's normally really supportive. I can't shake the feeling that I'm disappearing a little bit. Dott, dot, dot. Spooky.

Don't know if that's just what long relationships feel like or if this is something else. Yeah, no. The bit with the nails even is too much. The nail bit is the weird. weirdest one because it's almost like blue nails like that we're getting quite specific of what doesn't feel like her like also it's not that deep like i've had my nails painted many different colors some that i've liked more some that i haven't liked that much it doesn't they're not really necessarily a reflection of who i am of like i'm someone with blue nails right now but maybe i guess if you

have a very narrow view of what somebody is what blue nails but nails could interrupt that i guess if it's only kind of like, well, the only nails that are allowed or whatever. I don't know. It feels very, like, concert. There's something about it that feels extremely conservative. Yeah, it does. It just feels like controlling. But I don't like anyone telling anyone who they are.

Like, I really don't. That doesn't feel like you. That doesn't feel like you. That feels very manipulative. Because I just feel like everyone's trying to work out who they are anyway. And that sort of shit just really would get in my head. Me too. Me too.

And I don't like the feeling of disappearing. No. Not at all. Not at all. fucking back to the future you're disappearing from the from the photo my favourite

I don't like that at all I had a dream that happened to me once oh god it was really scary um sorry I just have to finish that I thought that I was looking at my toes and they were disappearing one by one

oh that's really scary yeah it's quite spooky quite eerie it's quite eerie look how on the air we are oh my god um I hate this I think it needs to be at minimum

a conversation And I do kind of feel like the prefacing, we're already signed to live together next year. When I start my PhD, we've already got a trip booked for next summer, blah, blah, blah. Let's not write anything off, okay? Anything is possible. If you need your way out of something, you could be at the altar and we'd find you a way out. Oh, my God. We'll be there.

There's always a way. Yeah. Okay. I just kind of think if you're, this is just not nothing. Like, even saying a micro reaction, I kind of feel like, it does feel. So undermining it to yourself almost. Yeah. And also by being.

like the checking of the outfit before you go out it just feels like in what world is that so we look like a unit also what are you checking for right are you checking for shortness of the skirt that's what i'm saying yeah there's just a lot it's like just don't like you feel like you're disappearing you feel like you're losing yourself in it it's like but you're signed in to trying to live with this person next to so just please watch out watch your watch your back not in a spooky way but like and also like i can feel the like sort of defense of it like he's like he's great in other ways, all of the stuff. And I think that all of that stuff can be true.

That can all exist. And also someone be manipulative. And also, like, I hate to take it to the lengths. No, no, but it is. But it's almost like often people that are manipulative or, I hate to say it, abusive, are really nice and everything is great in every other way. But it still doesn't mean that that bit doesn't exist. I would have a conversation with him.

But maybe even before that, I would. And I hope that you already maybe. are but maybe not but i would be having conversations with other people in your life and maybe like the people who know you and maybe know both of you so i'm sure like at this point people in your life have seen you together and whatever i would just yeah what's your friends think just get some ears on that get some ears on the ground just so there's we're planting seeds everywhere like everything is maybe fine you know we don't we're not we're not doing anything crazy we're just taking a time yeah but i would have some conversations of like people who know you

and people who know more than just a couple of paragraphs than what you've said. I also feel like the more you talk about it, the more you'll probably come to your own conclusion. What maybe I would do. But I also think this is like maybe like definitely do what Wing just said first, I would say if you're like, see if you don't feel particularly like extreme about it, but I think I would feel quite claustrophobic with someone telling me that doesn't feel like you that this is you and that doesn't align with you and blah, blah, blah.

I think what I would do is maybe do something quite out of character, like almost like wear something that I really like that I know that he won't like or whatever and like see the reaction. Just because I don't like the ordering around of it. I'm allowed to wear something that I don't like that isn't me and you are not really allowed to tell me that I can't do that. I don't care. It's nothing to do with you.

I'm allowed to do things that don't align with who I am. because I'm a growing, changing person. And almost like, is all these good things about our relationship, it's good, he's normally supportive, whatever, does it? Is that all rested on him seeing you in a specific way? Yeah. Don't get fucking comfortable with any version of me. Please, sir?

Yeah. I barely know myself, alone you knowing me. I'm allowed to wear blue nail varnish. I think that would piss me off. That doesn't feel like you. Okay, because I'm trying something out. It would spook me, and I do think, like, this is almost getting a bit too.

serious, spooky. But I do think it is important as a woman and I also think having lived with someone very close to me in an abusive relationship and seen the impact of that and actually completely lost that person in my life, you pee. Really, really awful actually. It's actually

not something to joke about. Like abuse is really like, they're very cunning. They're very clever. It's very subtle until all of a sudden everything has changed and whatever. And obviously that maybe is not the case of what we're happening but I do think it's really important that if you're starting to feel things like I'm disappearing or it feels controlling but I can't put my finger on it.

At minimum, like really keep an eye on that and keep people around you who love you and know you that can keep kind of keep you grounded in reality and just make sure that everything is okay. I think a key thing in that is like expanding that network and making sure that network is strong outside of the relationship and almost like I'd love to hear or like I guess we will never hear because I don't. think you're right back in but like maybe a question to ask is like is he just controlling with like what you wear and things like that like when you go and see your friend say you were going to go spend like a week with your friend what would he say he's not he's not controlling with well they said like when i whatever like i'm at uni and things are fine or i don't know what they said things are fine he's not controlling in obvious ways he doesn't care if i go out doesn't care if i talk to guys at work doesn't care if i hang out with people at uni yeah but not guys and but like

what happens if you i don't know like i don't know like What is your network looking like outside of that relationship? What is your relationships with other women looking like there? Because I think these people... Yeah. They'll have a fucking good point of view. They'll be able to see it clearly. And also, if he's got a fucking problem with that,

I think that points to larger, like, isolating things. Oh my God. The best thing that could ever happen, if you're abusing someone, the best case scenario is they're in a perfect environment where they're just, yeah, isolated. And it's all under your... There's no one in their area saying,

hey do you think that was a bit dodgy when he did we're asking to go yeah oh god it's disgusting no it's fucked spooky super spooky super maybe too spooky i then but then i don't also want to make it seem like it's like no oh yeah do you know what i mean but you know in a tasteful sense no just with all the class and taste in the world hope you're okay and like keep an eye i think it look i also think follow your follow what you're already saying you've already said it haven't you you already know and also like I think there's a what's quite interesting with getting these dilemmas in it's not like we're just being presented with a like an objective situation so much of everything that we know is through your retelling of it and I think sometimes we're naive to

the ways that we present the story is actually just like telling ourselves yeah like almost he would be telling a different story and I think it's like sometimes you know more than you think you know with like your telling of it like you're kind of leading us down the the root there of being like, I think something here isn't right. This is quite an odd situation. He's, you know, he's being controlling and like dictating who you are and what you can wear and things like that. Yeah.

To me, I feel like you kind of know what you're saying there. Yeah. And also if you think, like, we do often as well have the instinct to like downplay. Like, we even were having the conversation earlier about your concussion. And that you were sending messages being like, everything's fine though. But it's like, and not necessarily offering up. up like well actually the reality is like you know it's funny because like in the moment yeah yeah yeah it's like yeah you had an accident of work that wasn't your fault um in the moment of like yeah

there's just so much it's difficult sometimes it feels like feels weird to announce to be vulnerable I think to like say oh yeah this something here's not right whatever yeah yeah well even in the depths of my pits and hell we get on these face times you say how is it and I say it's absolutely awful but I'm fine. Yeah. Like every time it's like, I'm fine. Yeah. But she was not fine.

Because these things take like a lot to, you have to work the truth out a little bit, I think. You have to give it to yourself first. You just say this every time. Yeah. Okay. Let's do another. Yeah.

I love these episodes so much. Do you? They're just really fun, I think. Okay, good. I just love getting like a story to, like, react to just like, fucking hell. We did, we have had since last year. Was that the first year we did it?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. We have had lots of messages even throughout the year. Even like in summer people like, beginning of it. Like people have a message all year being like, you could do a few more of those. Yeah. Well, if you like these, please let us know because these are fun. And they are spooky, but we could always like.

Yeah, I mean, they're just dating stories. It's all year round, isn't it? Also, this evergreen. Like, these conversations do feed into the podcast the whole time. But like, it's just fun getting a big bulk of them. And it's, and it's kind of the, I love when we get meta about, how is this podcast working for everyone else? How is it going so far? How's it going to you guys?

What are your thoughts? But, yeah, having like a different almost medium of the topic. I would almost love to do like people send us voice notes and then we react. Really? Because sometimes, no offence, guys. People can, I do love it. 10 seconds. Literally 10 seconds.

I do see any podcast that I, or like anything I watch where they start getting voice notes in, I'm like, I think it makes me feel awkward and embarrassed on the behalf of the person who called in. And that's not, that's purely me projecting onto you guys. I believe in you. I trust you, whatever. I just know if I was sent in a voice note to some one's podcast. I'd be shaking. It would have taken me a good few takes, yeah.

Well, do you know, also, so Lily Allen's old podcast, Queen, by the way, album God blew me away. Bloody. I actually almost not to be a narcissist freak but I do feel like in my concussion that album was like a gift to me of just like of course at your low moment Lily Allen's going to make a comeback not many things in life I'd want more than that it just felt like a gift

what a comeback it was what a comeback it was Christ I also feel like the last episode we did at the point of recording this so when you hear this it'll be the last episode because it's coming out tomorrow yeah the jealousy one and like talking about cheating and stuff There were just so many moments where I thought we kind of embodied the spirit of Lily Allen in some way in that.

It was so, it was a real, and it wasn't directly, but there was something about the episode that just screams fuck David Harbour. That was just so. And let me scream it now from the rooftops. Now again. Like crazy. When you talk about controlling and like, abuse, I mean, literally abusive. And like kind of coercing someone into an open relationship in that way. It's so fucked up.

Pussy Palace is my favourite. Which one's your favorite? Yeah, it's a great song. So perfect. I mean, they all, the problem is they. each make one another better. And it is like a, the like linear like monologing of it. It's Hamilton. It's Hamilton.

It's getting slant poetry halfway through. It's getting madame. It's not. It's absolutely. I love her. Good old fashion Western shootout. It's absolutely insane. I know.

But her podcast, the voice. Oh, yes. Well, that's on Miss Me, which she's since left. Is she still doing it then? So no, Makita and then Jordan from Rizzle kicks has stepped in. Jade's boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah.

Quite. Second Jade mentioned. Yeah, second Jade mentioned. She does, she does just deserve quite a lot of mentions, doesn't she? She's a queen. Yeah, she really is. And I mentioned a little mix. Did I mention a little mix separately?

No, that was, sorry, sorry. I don't know. Yeah, no, go, go. They, their podcast. Have voice notes and not everyone is a natural born storyteller also. Some people, you know, you can feel it. I think it's hard for the audience more so. I think it requires a lot from the listener.

Well, I almost think, look, I have a whole thing at the moment about pace. of like, tell me your thing fast. Sure. Don't know me. You joking me because every fucking day of my life when I send you a voice note, I know we've already spoken about this many times personally. Really? Because I did.

That's actual one story teller I must say. You're getting voice notes that are sometimes, what, six, seven minutes long, Sethi. And I'll save for that thing. And every time I say, you better freaking do me a favour and put that on two times speed. For me, not for you. Yeah. And why, though?

Because I want to listen to it at the normal speed. But at some point, you're going to break. And I'll say, I'll tell you so. I like it. I could listen to you, go and go. It's so nice. But you're focused on pace, you just said. Well, I think maybe in the last few years,

I've been surrounded by quite a few boring people, and I just think, let's put that on the fast forward. I love to hear I'm not boring. Also, people aren't, I'm not actually, I am probably being quite horrible, I mean there, but I don't mean to be. I don't know.

I just sometimes think, some people go around the houses a little bit when they're telling a story. Which also when you're not invested, like how many times, Harry, have you listened to this podcast? I thought, fucking hell. That's not what the title said. Get on with it. Yeah, exactly.

10 seconds, 10 seconds, 10 seconds. Skip ahead. Yeah, totally. Okay, yeah. So when they have voice notes, you like it, though? No. I sort of just, basically, I would just like to hear our listeners voices talking to us. Me too.

Because I don't mean you go around the houses, Harry. God, you get straight to the point you're an amazing storyteller. I just know it. But often on Lily Allen's old podcast, there was. would be like, I don't know, maybe quite an older person telling a story or someone. Also, they spend the whole first minute of the voice note being like, Lily, I'm such a fan, blah, blah, blah. Fair. I'd be doing the exact same.

Totally. I wonder what, yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah. Okay. But you can do that to us. That'd be nice. That'd be lovely. Yeah, best podcast ever.

Yeah, literally. Okay. This is going to be a bit complicated, I think. Okay, perfect. Let's ruin this right at the end. Let's do it. I'm in. Okay.

It's a bit power dynamic. I'm getting just from the vibes. So is everyone in, everyone okay with that? Do I have your full consent? Yeah. Before we continue. So I,

brackets 25 female, love it, nice and clear. Thank you. Starting this guy from work. Oh, God. He's 36. Technically my manager,

but it's not like a boss, boss situation, if that makes sense. Oh, by the way, actually, who it doesn't. It doesn't make sense. God.

With so much love. No, it doesn't make sense. Technically, you're manager, but it's not a boss, boss, boss, boss quotes boss situation if that makes sense question mark okay over to you yeah we work in the

same department he's incredibly charming one of the people that everyone listens to when he talks oh i bet he sends a great voice note oh here we go and at first it felt very flattering that he had even noticed me the annoying part is i really like him he's smart and funny and he really gets me he even met my best friend once and when she came to meet me after work she was so obsessed with him and said he was so mature, I bet. For 36, is he that mature? We kept it quiet for a few months, but it started to get a bit weird.

He never wants to go out in public together, just comes over late or says he's too tired after work. But then at the office, at the office, he flirts with me in tiny ways, brushing past me. Oh, I do quite like this. Little comments under his breath. Jim Halpert. Harris Dickinson, baby girl.

Yeah, literally. It messes with my head because no one else knows. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. The other day I mentioned, maybe we should stop sneaking around. And he said it wouldn't be good for your career if people knew. Like, sorry, what does that even mean? Now I feel like I can't end it because he signs off my rotor.

And I'm scared he'll make things awkward if I do. I don't know if I'm overthinking or if it's more manipulative than I thought, but it's low-key starting to feel like he's more in control than I am. Yeah, he is. Yeah, it sounds that way, doesn't it? rude. On game day, pain can hit hard and fast, like the headache you get when your favorite team and your fantasy team both lose.

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Definitely. Yeah, that much is clear. But also, I feel like you knew that when you entered into the dynamic and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. What are your thoughts on this? Because people, I have seen people say that like past 25 it's up for grabs and like... What the fuck? To who?

Have you not seen that? No, that's convenient, isn't it? I think a lot of people think that way. I think that's disgusting. They're almost like, well, if she's 25. No. So it doesn't matter if he's... 80 or 70 or 155 years old.

Who, things like that? Let me guess. Old creepy man. I don't know. Maybe, you know, disillusioned young women. Maybe. And I see why you'd be disillusioned. But is that sort of thinking that will lead to further disillusionment?

Like, there's... No, I don't think that. Because also, think about how wrong you would feel at 34, say, I'm a 34-year-old woman, going out with a 25-year-old boy. I feel maybe a bit weird about that. The fact that they don't feel weird about that, I think the crucial thing to remember, is when this person was born, how old were you?

Good question to ask yourself if you're an old man dating a young woman. I do agree if you're an old man. It's kind of like think about how you felt like when your baby cousins were born and you were already eight. You're not trying to have sex with her. I should fucking hope not. Bloody out. It's a whole different episode.

But like think about the fact that a man could be whatever, a 19 year old man could be meeting his future wife that's born on that day. Imagine if we were fucking 19 year olds. I'm sorry. The world would end. Who is? Oh, it's, I saw the other day Channing Taiter is dating her. I think she's like 25 or something.

So up for grabs for all the old men of the world. He's like, I think 30, I don't know, it's 19 year age gap. I googled it. Which I do think is, I actually do think that's bad. It's so, first of all, unimaginative. It's so obvious. Yeah. The girl does look young.

Yeah. Right. I just thought, no. And I think that every day I see it Because I see it all the fucking time Boring, predictable pedophilic, creepy and just one more of a horrible thing

Almost in the sense of like If you had loads of money Look around you on this earth It is your duty to share it out a little bit In that way I do think we're like If you're a young man Or I guess an older If you're a man like Channing Tatum in this world

Maybe it is your duty to seek out Women get out at least your age Go with women your age Wouldn't that be nice Wouldn't that just do everyone a favour? Five year limit. You can go five years down maybe. 19 might be pushing it a bit, mate.

I think if you're like 56 and she's 50, okay. Yeah. So that's six years. See how it gets tricky. It's not. Also like just I think speak to the women in your life. Would a woman date someone? Like also, yes, you can think of a few.

I was actually having this conversation about Sam Taylor. Yeah. Yeah. The other day. And I feel like she's the person that's always used. like the but, but I also think the shit, but the shit that she gets. Okay, so I don't agree with that situation. I also don't agree with Channing Tays and dating a 25 year old.

I don't agree with Leonardo DiCaprio and the disgusting shit that he gets up to and gets down. Gets down. Gets down. And dirty, but I don't agree. Yeah. I think it's all pretty fucked. But the fact that she takes such a brunt of it because she is. The example of like a woman who is older dating someone that like all young girls have been attracted to, a beautiful Aaron Taylor, Johnson.

Like I think it's quite, it just says a lot when men are doing it day in, day out and no one about as an eyelid. Yeah, it's kind of funny when it's like that the time that we can recognise grooming is when a woman is the villain. Yeah. And also it's one of those things where it's like a man that is so conventionally attractive with a woman who is conventionally unattractive in sense in the, in the villain. the sense that she is like much older than him. I don't agree with the situation. But the fact that ugly men, ugly old men are dating beautiful young women all the time. And really no one literally gives a fuck. No.

Apart from us every fucking week. I give so much for a fuck. Yeah. This is a difficult one as well because you're in the same office and he's signing off your rotor. I don't know if that was a joke, but it's funny. What is signing off your rotor? Oh, he's like creating your hours for work.

Yeah, I guess he's maybe monitoring your, like, your... What does he get to choose how many hours you have? I don't know, but I don't love... It wouldn't be good for your career if people know. Because the implication there is, I wonder where that comes from. Is it like, does he feel in any way that his career would also be impacted at all? No, because it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be.

It would be... She's the kind of, like, office slat that... Yeah. Who have you got a fuck around here to get, like, a raise? You know, it's kind of horrific. all these old stereotypes are just like still at play and he probably the horrible truth is he's using that manipulatively there's no way around that but the horrible truth is he will an office relationship is not advised because it will probably not even touch the man but will have an impact

in the woman's career there are consequences hey i do think as well something to i mean the maybe some other some good news is with all of these horror stories it is kind of you know do you remember when you were having a certain dilemma with somebody in a dating sense. Or like it wasn't necessarily dating but it was like, oh, it was everything. It was everything but dating. It was so intense and it was all you could think and talk about. Yeah.

That makes it clear who it is. Yes. Yeah. Well, and I remember saying to you, it's not, it's kind of an annoying thing to hear, but I remember being like, if there was a big fucking pit of problems, this is the problem that you would pull out. It's a nice problem. It's a reasonably nice and exciting

and girl in her 20s kind of problem as long as you're safe and like you are doing everything to the best of your ability to like look after yourself in your own I mean like physical well-being yes priority and also like your own mental state within this and like keeping people around you who are like gonna kind of help you stay sane

is this not just what life is about yeah it is I just hate that wait so she does like him and all of the stuff. I just feel like... It's a sad... I don't... I don't love the power dynamic there and I don't love him saying it wouldn't be good for your career. Like, I think, again, my...

Like, kind of the same advice for the last one of just like, speak to your friends about this because... Well, the friend liked it, remember? But liking someone and thinking it's like a good situation, like a safe situation, I think a different, like, someone can be charismatic in all of the staff. And I hate to be the fucking Debbie Downer here, but like, A man saying, I want to keep out, your boss, your boss, boss, boss, not your boss, whatever, but your boss at work saying, I want to fuck you, but I don't want anyone to know about it because it won't be good for your career. Not good.

That is not a good situation. I'm sorry. And I need to remember that it's not Harris Dickinson and Baby Girl. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not.

It's not Nick Miller, Nick Miller behind the bar. I wish it was. These are the men at work that I appreciate. Like, I think if you do really like him and all of the stuff, you can have that. conversation being like that made me feel fucking powerless, you saying that. Like that is actually, the only thing I can read that as is a fucking threat.

Like, what the fuck else is that? It won't be good for my career. What am I going to get fired? Like, excuse me, if anyone finds out, what the hell? And also is it kind of ignoring the fact that, I don't know, it's just a weird implication that it will be fine for him and not for her. Yeah, your

career. That bit was in capitals. It'll be weird for your career. Don't tell me about my career. Yeah, boss. Excuse me, don't tell me about... World's Best Boss. I don't think you have any... Oh, I hate it.

I hate a feeling of powerlessness. You might not mind it, but I really don't like it. You might not mind it, so. That might not bother you, but that really would annoy me. No, it bothers me. It bothers me. Oh, what doesn't? Yeah.

Okay, should we do just a few more little... Just a couple little, you know, silly billies. Yeah. How spooky. Is everyone shaking in their boots? I'm shaking, yeah. It makes me laugh. This is cool.

I didn't see this. Your Instagram post. My Instagram post. Yeah, I've just, it's on the story. Like, some story archives, but I hadn't seen that. What Instagram post? You've posted on Instagram that I haven't seen, that's all. Oh, okay.

No biggie. Jeez. I'm not sure, but I thought you meant it was today. I was like, I haven't posted. That's quite scary. I was like, what do you mean? I haven't posted about two weeks. Yes, I've accidentally posted something.

Maybe. Oh, yeah, no, that one was in DMs. Okay, fine. Sorry. Just getting lost. Could we actually just maybe do this one? Just because I think. it's not even necessarily a horror like okay let's just do it immediately yeah i don't well i just think

this is really important because every other message we get is someone saying something not even for horror stories in general every other message we fucking get is someone saying something along this line yeah and i just think if you're the only person like in your immediate circle experiencing this it must feel very isolating and like it's the biggest thing in the world like oh my god what is wrong with me yeah alack no nothing is wrong with you news finally. Great news. Fifty minutes into the episode yet honestly and hear them loud and clear. This hasn't said, my dating life is a horror story.

I'm 25 and only ever been on two days. Be serious right now. Be real with me. I'm sorry. That is normal. Like, what, but like almost. Okay, so. Do you think this was Love Island?

Where to begin? Let's all take a seat. Let's all take a freaking seat. Wherever you're at, if you have the opposite scenario, if you have the same scenario, you're in a, I just cannot believe anything other than, I guarantee, with all my might, that you are so normal. Do you know what? I was actually speaking to someone really recently, and they were saying to me, they were like, oh, I didn't lose my virginity until I was 23.

And they said it as if it was really, and I was like, God, Jesus, like, I've so, like, almost, I think there's this weird idea of, like, shame of, like, when you should have done things. We've all got it. We've all got so many things that we feel behind and all of the stuff. But I think that was just one of those moments where I just think, Jesus Christ, everyone's got these narratives of what's late and what's early and all of these things. That is like so fine. Like, God, I know people, like, Jesus, it's so fucking fine.

Like, whatever you do. Whatever you do. Also, like, I have been in so many conversations with friends where they're, like, had been so fucking stressed about, like, never having been in a relationship, all of this stuff. It would, like, eat them alive, all of this stuff. And it's just one of those things like, God, no one's thinking about any. of this stuff other than you. It really is fun.

All these like imposed deadlines. No. Take your fucking time. Yeah. Take your time. And stop. Stop trying to look for answers with basically your worth. It's not a question of something wrong with you.

You are not fitting it in some way. That's not it. Yeah. Like I, and you know what? Once you're on the other side of this, you'll be like, I spend a lot of time feeling bad about that. And now I see that it wasn't. And I know that's annoying to hear when you're in it, but like, I think that's everything to hear.

I know it. I've seen it. You make it clear, Harry. Yeah. For example, you haven't ever had sex. Okay, the first time you have that, then you'll be like, oh, okay. Yeah. And then what?

All of that for what? I'll tell you now, it's relatively overhymed. Yeah. You're having sex with the man, prepares me under, like, it's not. Yeah. You're not going to go to a different realm. It's fine. Of all things to be missing.

out on having sex like kind of yeah with people choose to do this in your sort of early 20s i honestly think just like honestly you're not missing anything it's fine take your sweet time it's not a you problem it's really not a you problem it's not there's not there just like you they wear similar things to you they laugh at similar things to you you'd be great friends if you knew them and if you knew them you'd be so much more comfortable in your own where you're at your own timeline yeah you need to trust that you are not the only person. I can't expose you all. It'd be awful.

But just trust that every day there is a new message from another person who feels like they're the only person. Behind and so. Also this. Blumen. Stuff, like not to get too like kind of sort of like conspiracy about it all, but it's fucking true that this shit is a distraction for women. Like these anxieties were given to you.

You have actually like inherited these anxieties about being behind, not being chosen, not being good enough. And they are literally a distraction. from you enjoying your life. And enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself in your life. Look at you. Look at you.

It's a crazy one. It is. That's the biggest horror story of them all actually. It really is. Time wasted. Yeah. And just like over identification with what you have and haven't done and have and have not experienced. Like fucking chill.

Just like do whatever you want. And it's on like these things really don't matter. Yeah. I do think that is kind of. Overriding advice is almost always, this probably wasn't about you. Yeah. Like, someone else is going through whatever or da-da-da-da. You are really just fine.

You are. Really just fine. Literally, I would put my money on it. It's actually so true, yeah. Okay, well, that was pretty horrifying. Yeah, okay. I'm actually petrified. What a great app.

I've loved this. Have you? I always love horror stories. I think it's so fun. Best thing we do it. Let us know. you want them more often maybe we'll do a poll on Spotify saying more of these but I will get upset people say no I won't all right it's once a year let people don't like it it's fine but I think

maybe like give people the opportunity to be like would you like it if we did it slightly more regularly and almost had like a bit of a longer kind of we had a bit of a kind of running thing of like I know people like these yeah they do don't they yeah I mean we get enough messages saying that people like them so yeah and there's enough there's enough horror stories to go around Oh my god, there's more than enough. Horrifying times. Yeah. Okay.

Well, if you don't hear from us, assume the worst.