Goes Without Saying - learning to say "no": the 'cool girl' myth

Episode Date: July 24, 2022

tell me you can't say "no" without feeling an overwhelming sense of failure and shame without actually telling me...join the conversation every monday.shop our merch: sephyandwing.comcome and chat in our book club!speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram!you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/zuPH7gyeGp Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying. You're listening to Goes Without Saying. We're Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. This is a weird episode and I'm not just saying it. It is a weird, old, not like other girls kind of episode. She's kind of kooky, she's super unique and crazy,

unpredictable. In this episode we're talking about the myth of being this laid-back, cool girl and how we break that, we set boundaries how we say no I've had a good time I hope you enjoy hello hello how are you oh you got in there first I'm good I'm good I'm happy because I'm seeing um James Acaster tonight so I'm quite in a good mood I'm ready to meet my heroes and be disappointed no you won't be I think it will be you're gonna have your um your meet cute I think so but everyone's been like to me lower your expectations yeah and I think you do need to enjoy it I know I'm gonna enjoy it it's a long time coming yeah exactly it's been what five years in the making of being in love from afar I can't wait to get the debrief.

I can't wait to debrief you. How are you? But it's not the debrief, is it? I don't know. The debrief is before, right? No. The debrief is after, isn't the... That's what I always thought. The brief is before, the pre-brief. If you were doing a psychological study, like a case study,

any psychologist out there, I always thought the debrief was after, but then I thought they said that the debrief was before. I'm going to debrief you. Oh, fuck. Yeah, that's what I thought. No, no, I agree with you. I don't know. It was a long time ago since I was doing psychology. I can't remember. And I've never done it, so I I don't know it's a long time ago since I was doing

psychology I can't remember and I've never done it so I really don't know how are you you you do it's all in you anyway you know it anyway how are you in life um all right um I'm excited for this episode we did already we've recorded today we did our book club episode um yeah and we've kind of been talking on and off all day which it's quite it's not that different to most days really but yeah and there was a guy chopping down trees outside he stopped so yeah we've gone back and forth a bit today so i feel like i'm coming in a bit frantic yeah but it's all good no mowers around i saw his van leave with all the tree trunks in the back and i was like he's gone and don't come back now nice did you see that someone said i don't know if we want to say that oh no actually no don't

worry no no someone said someone said oh my god the shade of emma's tats i was gonna say you got busted yeah i don't know how they knew they must know because they because you love emma and she's got a boyfriend emma chamberlain in the last episode she's my queen my queen i'll never i'll never blaspheme again well they inspired me big time that's literally stunning that do you know what there's one that she got i think it was the first one she got that was of a rat a little rodent like a little rat's face and i remember thinking that's the first tattoo i've seen that i've actually really liked

that i've been like that's rude because i have two you know i love yours you know i love yours but one that i'd be like i would want that little rat is because it gives me the shrek rat vibe it gives me the three blind mice oh no it's giving me more wind in the willows ratty sort of vibe that it looks like a little cartoon rat rat it's like a little fairy tale cartoon i love that but three blind mice that's really bad do you think i wouldn't like three blind mice from shrek well i mean it's obviously not the three blind mice from shrek but that's the vibe like a cute little mouse yeah yeah i don't really like them i find them a bit mean in shrek what do they do i think they mean to each other everyone out of that they they're like the first

people he sees in his swamp i think and so they give me a bit of a like get the fuck out get out yeah fair enough well look yeah you don't have to get them anyway don't get them forget right have we successfully started the episode then is this what we're going on the weirdest energy ever it really is so we're talking about saying no boundaries cool being a cool girl obviously we started off on a really cool note it gives me kind of rat rat from wind in the willows that is no but that's cute that's not do you want to know my starring role that i've actually never probably told you about but i actually found a photo of it the other day oh my god i actually have a few things to tell you but like they are bizarre so just to make

it a bit more bizarre but so i had a starring role in wind in the willows when i was in year three in our school play year three year three so i was young had a solo yeah you were the babies um so did i did you who did you play in what it was no i'm not gonna overshadow your starring role with no i'd love to know your starring role no i want to know your story first then we can do okay then we'll go into your starring role um yeah and then i had always pictured it almost as this like set that was so insane and it was like kind of a west end vibe just beautifully hand painted i was in an amazing costume my grandma got these photos out of the loft and i saw what i looked like and it's so

tragic that's so it's so sad it's so sad what are you wearing my grandma had made it it was just like rags oh that's really cute i never had like a maid costume that's crazy i used to think that was like the coolest yeah that's really cool so cool what was the other thing my starring role was it later oh no no later it's a story for later not later but it's a bit scary oh okay oh okay not scary but like weird but go on okay my starring role was it wasn't even a role it was that it was the nativity it was christmas time and it was every year they did nativity they would pick one person from um choir to do the solo of away in a manger oh my god yeah like quite a big deal and i really didn't i didn't see it coming but they honored me with the honor of my life and i sung away in a manger and it was really cute my nam came to see me for a bed no crib for a bed

and um i had to do it quite a few times even on the performances where my class weren't performing like they split it up like across the years like it was like and they brought you in with the yeah they said this is wing from and she's gonna sing her little heart and they had it burned onto a cd and it said like solo erin emirali like and they sold it the school sold it have you got a copy i must do somewhere but i actually had a thing the other day where i don't have anything from my childhood apart from and this is a controversial thing but nobody's shocked my copies of the harry potter books yeah like my philosopher's stone is from like

2001 or something. And this is why they mean everything. And I was looking at it the other day and I was like, God, like, my mum has sat reading this. Like, I sat looking at it. I stared at this so much as a kid. Like, it's so cute. Oh, my God, that is so amazing.

Really, really cute. How stunning is that? A book is quite a special thing. So I was really turning the pages. Like, my mum sat and read this. Read this to to me and what it must have meant that first time as well the first time hearing that um but yeah anyway i was the star of the nativity at the time which actually well done thank you i wish i could have come and seen um i wish you could have as well there was previously to that i had been there's a nursery so that was when i was i don't know what year you're in when

you do the nativity when you do i think you do it all through primary school yeah but i don't know what that was like for us but then i know that in nursery i was supposed to be an angel stunning beautiful i think i might have said this on the podcast and i have i have a photo of this somewhere where i was supposed to be an angel i was supposed to be an angel and then some girl came in classic little bitch i can see it already crying saying she wanted to be an angel she wanted to be an angel so now there's a photo of me now there's a photo of me with a tea towel wrapped around my head as a shepherd because i said don't worry i'll be the shepherd and she's so cute people pleaser i know with this gorgeous like this kit i'm definitely fancied this boy at the time who

was playing what's his name joseph joseph i'm not that familiar someone's got to read up on the bible i did know that but anyway i've really gone on god that's so cool though did you ever get to be mary because that's what i always wanted no and i don't think i wanted i was just really i never to be honest didn't even think that i could have got i remember thinking i wouldn't want to do this solo it's like too much too embarrassing it's blah blah and then i got it and i was like oh my god i've i've got the solo that's a big deal yeah obviously i'm over it now it doesn't sound like i am but i promise i never think about this oh no don't get over it i think no i'm so over it i think who you play in the nativity sets you up in your identity for the rest of your life no i

don't think so i think it does i think it frames a part of your um how you see yourself maybe yeah that's what i mean it's controlling your life it's not you've played cloud five so if you are forever cloud five i more mean i think it really massively shapes your sense of self i really remember one thing um miss houston who was the head teacher we had oh no we didn't have a miss yeah we had a similar name but i was gonna say she moved schools like miss hewison oh well miss houston that would have been crazy if she moved school she came to my school god miss houston had a stroke but she did make full recovery i believe um but at the time when we were in school she had a stroke but anyway miss houston was the

head teacher at the time and my nan used to drop me off at school and whatever and blah blah my nan loved miss houston and my nan came in to watch the nativity because miss houston was would just like let her in like she didn't have to get tickets or whatever. I was doing the solo. Did I mention I was doing the solo? And I remember Miss Houston saying, take a deep breath before you go on stage. Deep, deep breath. And then I watched,

I had the tape of it somewhere and I saw it back. Oh, God. I must be about six years old and my shoulders come up to my ears. Why is that the cutest thing ever? And then I go, to be about six years old and my my shoulders come up to my ears and then i start singing really cute so ready really cute like really took it serious take a deep breath and everything you know all right you know like almost before when you're about to do something you take on any advice like as gospel it's like definitely don't remember to

not do the xyz and it's like don't do the xyz don't do the xyz you like become preoccupied with this one piece of information that's supposed to like guide you through that was us when we went on stage recently and i remembered last time i accidentally kind of snatched the microphone off you a little bit without even thinking no you wouldn't hand it over remembering don't snatch the microphone yeah don't snatch the microphone because only because we'd said sephia said i want you to go first i want you to go first you say like blah blah blah like ease us in whatever blah blah so the whole thing started sephia was holding the one microphone because we'd only been given one microphone this is

a long time ago now so years ago and i was like okay like it's coming up i was trying to look at her like give me the mic i was oblivious you want me you want me to start and she was like, okay, it's coming up. I was trying to look at her like, give me the mic. That was oblivious. You want me to start? And she was like, and then I went to take it and she fully snatched it back. Red flag, honestly. Crazy bags coming from you. I don't know that I didn't even remember doing that,

but I almost remember being quite confused of like, wait, do you want to start? Like I'd clearly blanked the whole conversation i'd be like could you turn it back on me nice nice but also it's not a tool that i would want to start it that'd be my nightmare no you were like please start it please start it so then i went to start it and then she snatched the microphone back as if to say what the fuck are you doing but i didn't make me look so weird for everyone like almost like oh god what are they having a bit of an altercation because you didn't want to give me the microphone it was so weird like almost like oh god what are they having a bit of an explanation because you didn't

want to give me the microphone it was so weird that was clearly my body kicking in without me so the next time i was like do not like be controlled of your hands look at what your actions you were literally like like yanked him jesus christ so worrying so so worrying as if i was gonna go um way in a manger so cute anyway should we start this cool girl combo yeah let's do it bloody hell didn't think we were gonna what on earth have we just been speaking about no have you got any points that you want to start with um i had one that i screenshot that i really liked okay but i don't know if it's a starter. We can start with it. I'll take it for a starter.

I'm starving. Everyone hungry. So they said, trusting who my friends say I am and letting that change my personal values and sense of self. And I thought it was really interesting. The idea of... Wait, wait. So a boundary that they struggle to set and how they struggle to say no is trusting who my friends say i am and letting

that change my personal values or sense of self huh okay interesting so they're saying they don't want to think about they don't want to take on what their friends see them as and let that form their identity that's really interesting i think i get that a lot of like not necessarily who my friends i am but who the world tells me i am i think there's not that the world's telling me i'm anyone but i think a really dangerous thing you can do is form your sense of self too heavily i mean a certain amount of it's natural on the opinions of other people and who the world says you are because for example you're cast as um donkey number four in the nativity the world told you you're donkey number four

little did you know in a couple of years you're gonna be doing a solo mate you're gonna be a star you're going to hollywood highlight of your life has anyone seen nativity i've seen nativity yeah not a lot though i have to admit it's got my my it gives me flashbacks to my i don't want to let it take my nativity not joking it's got martin freeman in who i love oh yeah because you love him as no you do you love him as bilbo yeah i love him as i love him as bilbo but i don't actually i'm not getting good vibes from just martin freeman on his own he's an actor an actor definitely but i really get that he has characters is that correct as bilbo he has hooves what does that mean i swear what's what's his creature called what's his his species are you joking is the name of the film name of the hobbit he's a hobbit of course right sorry guys my brain is

really fried um he's a he's a hobbit and hobbits have hooves correct they don't have hooves oh really hobbits have like big hairy toes hairy feet yeah they may as well be hooves yeah they have big clunky little little they've got big old hairy feet not nice yeah and for some reason i'm loving it but not enough to put you off nowhere even close i loved i've loved hobbits i've always loved them i loved frodo back in the day loved mary and pippin and i um anyway um this has got very strange yeah this is a bit much isn't it what what i distracted you what were you saying trusting like who the world tells you you are and i do think it's a dangerous thing to fall into and like so why did i bring up none of the rings then because i went on a whole

thing saying you could get told that you're we can't do it twice we can't go through the whole combo but i want to know where it came from where did it come from what did why did we say that because i don't know where the hobbit came from we'd have to listen back and i can't be asked all right let's just move on then i guess i'll hear it in a minute maybe maybe we should do a different question what no no. Let's do this justice. Go back. Let's go. Start again. So trusting who my friends say I am

and letting that change my personal values and sense of self. Yeah. Do you ever think you've kind of changed who you think you are based on what someone said to you? 100,000 million bajillion percent. Yeah.

But I also have the thing where i often have to try and see myself the way that i know that lots of other people see me oh that's stunning actually i get that yeah yeah it's really um it's like the amount of times i've said to sephie people would die to even get a whiff of sephie from sephie and wing you need to really you need to let it sink in sometimes like when people i don't know i think it's really healthy to actually believe people when they compliment you as much as possible and like try and try and get to a place where it's almost like okay people might not be lying to me like don't take other people's opinions as who you are sure but if you're struggling with your self-esteem i think it is really well that was something that i had to work on was like

not immediately and i still do it all the time whenever anyone says anything nice i'm like they don't mean it they were just saying because they felt bad they were saying it for whatever i can't this weird like paranoid reason just really insane but i think we do that we get into this like i think it's a few things i think you're taught to not take compliments and stuff like it's almost like you're supposed to be seen as like not even humble or modest you're supposed to be seen as like completely self-loathing yeah completely hate yourself and anything else you're supposed to completely hate yourself yeah um and then i also think it's that like when you're insecure about certain things or when you're struggling with your self-esteem and blah blah blah it's really hard to actually

believe that someone might genuinely see you in a way that is different to the way that you see yourself and i think using other people using people that i love and that love me using their opinions to help me get a better grasp of how a third party might see me is a really good way for me to challenge some of the ways that i see myself that aren't necessarily true just because i see it like that doesn't mean it's true yeah and after a while i think it's i just get a bit annoyed like i've i've been annoyed with myself in life by being like it's actually embarrassing to dismiss everything that everyone says and have this weird opinion of yourself that you've plucked out of nowhere and no one's ever said this to you so why are you so sure that x y and z do you know what i mean yeah

i think that's such a big experience i also think it's such a women's experience oh totally to basically be like even though i'm getting this kind of feedback from the world i'm also getting the feedback from just like marketing and a load of other shit that i'm also a piece of shit so i'm gonna believe that one like the one that has the waiting is bollocks basically to me it's just completely like i have this i'm coming up with a load of shit everyone else is telling me nice things so why on earth like there's no evidence for anything else so i need to get a grip it's like a a really like out of frustration almost it's like you're wasting your life by being determined to see yourself horribly what a bizarre choice that you're making but is it a

choice like there must be something in human like evolution that wants humans to hate themselves because why does everyone hate themselves because it's survival instinct which sounds counterintuitive but it's in order you're desperate to see your own flaws so you know what you need to change yeah so that you can survive so you're constantly looking for the ways that you're falling short because you know someone else is going to come and take your spot and eat you alive and you're not gonna be able to reproduce all of that it's like okay so what we're endlessly here to fucking reproduce and live miserable lives and the people you reproduce may have miserable lives and they i think the point of life is to try and be like look i've actually it's just hit me that i'm here

on this earth and there are certain things that i'm doing that are making that experience worse and in a lot of ways for me there were a lot of things and there still are a lot of things that are choices like the ways that I torture myself in my mind that it is a choice it's a habit but when I can catch myself in certain choices then I can try and change it. Yeah. Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap. Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com But anyway, going back to the way that this person said it, which is don't take what other people, don't take how other people perceive you and let it shape how you see yourself i think that's a really great point so do i especially people are saying shitty things to you and people say shitty things and they do all the time all i hear is shitty things these days jokes i hear some nice things in a really in a really subtle like i find it to be almost people limit you this is the and which is one of my main fucking issues in life is feeling limited or feeling that someone is limiting

someone or feeling trapped or stuck or stagnant or any of these things if i feel like there's someone has imposed a limitation in any way i want to be sick can you give me an example of that well if i just look around at like the way society is structured let's start with that as an example there is so much of like normality that is actually just a limitation if you look at just like um jobs or relationships or clothes or any of these fucking things, beauty standards, whatever you want to take. They really are just fucking shackles. Like they really are just limitations that you put on,

that have been put on you and that you've kind of just like gone with, I guess. That it makes me feel so stressed out when you actually look at it. I was thinking, I was thinking i was thinking about jennifer lawrence a queen um my cat is complete queen total queen and i was thinking what an amazing person what a beautiful person what talented actress what a charismatic funny great gal she seems to be and then i was thinking how nice would that be to know what you want to do from like 14 or whatever try really hard get to do it and you're great at it and everything's fine and i was kind of thinking about this in the way of it's easy for us to say

like there are certain rules that we follow and just trends and patterns that we follow and we just do the ritual of life and we do as we're told and we stay in our small roles or whatever but even for jennifer lawrence even for someone who i would see as a success or living a life that is quite um. Yeah. Amazing. God, I'm sure her life is really, really challenging at times. But she has an amazing thing going for her. Even for someone like that, it's like, maybe it's not about, oh my God, like, it's almost like even Jennifer Lawrence

is just really good at and has been lucky in that she fits into a perfect she fits into a vision of what society would want even if it's a crazy thing that is really unattainable for like 99.99 of people she still wanted to be an actress and became an actress and feels comfortable in the role of actress i presume within reason and all of those things i think for me and i think for a lot of people there isn't a neat label that you can put on yourself even if it is a label that seems really amazing and unattainable even that label might still not fit you completely because i think sometimes in my head i'm like god

if i was an actress actress which is like you wouldn't be satisfied if you're an actress because there's a million and one other things that you would want to do it is fascinating the idea but i think i mean the whole idea of like a multi-hyphenate all of these i just mean the gross words but i almost think it is yeah the idea of being able to label yourself as one thing must be so rare and also the titles that are acceptable are so hard to come by because when like I always have it when like I'm on a night out or at a party or whatever and I have it with one specific friend in general whenever we're like we always get introduced to people together and they'll be like so what do you do and I'll say podcast i'll say like oh i just

i have like this podcast blah blah and my friend will be like oh i like i work in kind of oh it's fine it's like i do i do like this thing like i'm kind of marketing kind of this and we always have this joke where it's like we cannot sell what we do like the labels that we say don't sum it up so now i introduce her and i've got the great little i'm like she's a client success manager and i was like well like it's not that she wouldn't like that but it's like a client i use a client success and then it's like something interesting um i'll have to check with her what she wants it to be though now but it's like client success and i'm always like have the word success in there because you could say that i mean i'm a customer like manager whatever but you've got to sell it and then mine she'll be like oh yeah she's got she's a podcaster blah blah

and I just feel like the label that she's like and she'll make it sound good I still can't even do it on the podcast make it sound good but it it's funny like the label that you like are comfortable with sometimes it's quite hard to find because podcasting also doesn't really sum it up but also it's like it's difficult to find like a title that like you will like society will be like oh cool back at you and they're pretty hard like for example yeah actress perfect if you can fit neatly within that bubble I'm an actress oh my god the feedback you're gonna get but realistically unless you're jennifer lawrence you're gonna be an actress a waitress you also are a copywriter and all of this stuff as well but like to be honest a lot of people be pretty fucking hard to just be actress exactly what are the chances that you'll find and even jennifer lawrence's actress mother daughter sister

friend i'm sure she does lots of other like um i'm sure she's like ceo like all of these she probably does a lot of like why do we have to find one perfect also like i just i don't ever i don't know i think i just refuse even when i've got neat little things even like say you're just you're just a student which not to be like just a student but you've got the perfect thing of student i feel like that's quite a good thing it just gets enjoyed the gal jail free card exactly it's a gal job perfect even then like i think i'm just someone who i don't i don't love going into i don't know i just don't like setting having to explain yourself yeah i don't know i actually refuse to do it i don't do it they will not take no for an answer like the amount they do they do

because i'm manipulative and i spin things i have not worked out to spin it the amount of times i've just had to be like i don't know and it's not a fun thing to i don't know i also don't like to lead with job titles it's the least interesting thing exactly that's that's what pisses me off exactly but because it's also like you unless you have a genuine interest i don't care to have the conversation i i actually don't like having a conversation with someone when i can tell that they just feel like they have to be polite to me and things like that yeah it's just horrible but i am quite good at spinning a combo to get it to where i want to be which is normally out of the combo i mean that's a

fucking skill because i've been trying for three years now to not talk about the podcast most people little life hack most people love talking about themselves and i actually think i am naturally quite curious in other people depending on who they are so i can steer them into a specific thing and not give get them to give you an example do you know what i mean oh so you said you're an x y and z did you do that x y and z thing that i saw in blah blah blah was that you what did you think about that just turn it into a completely different it you you have the power to change it to a different conversation i i don't think i do have the power in me you do of course you do i don't know if i do i think it's one of those things as soon as someone asks me a question i just get flustered out of my mind i'm just like it's a basic thing but totally but that's in your

own head they're not thinking god flustered mcgee they might be but like that's because you you think oh god i'm about to get flustered just hold the i've been trying for years i've been trying my whole life you can do it yeah okay i've got a few here and they're all giving the same thing so i'm going to read them all out and we're going to do them all together oh okay fun which is crazy let me get my notepad out okay so this person said and I think this just kind of sums it up this was originally what actually prompted the episode to take this angle I think so we owe you this person said yeah um they struggled to set boundaries when I want to be seen as the cool slash laid back slash down for anything girl and i think that's the crux of the episode really so then this person said which i also thought was an interesting

like extension of that is that they struggle to set boundaries when someone's being sorry my stomach's wrong when someone's being jokey so when someone's jokey or banter is upsetting to me i struggle to set that boundary out of fear of being a bitch that can't take a joke or is boring i've got a point on that yeah and then this person to love island i'm sorry oh perfect no no everyone loved the love island chat then this is just summing everything up this person i think takes it into a new space as well they said they struggle to set boundaries when we've been friends for a long time and the behavior has been normalized oh my god these are so fucking good they're good aren't they so thank you but basically you want to be seen as cool you want to be seen as

someone who doesn't care like i'm not being boring whatever i'm very laid back i'm chilled yeah and i also think there's the extension of that which is how to change a dynamic that's already been set up i.e you haven't said anything for two years and it's really bugging you and now you need to change the dynamic how do we do that the tricky one so go on what was your point take so my point on as in wanting to be cool it's like about joke and it's all of the stuff to the second one there's a girl on love island called tasha yeah she's done i would say objectively nothing wrong okay her boyfriend is the one that sucked the tail is that andrew andrew okay so they did this challenge where it was like i was listening i was taking notes yeah well thank you thank you this nonsense thank you um there was a challenge

they did where they had to like put pies in the face of like people they didn't like blah blah um and a lot of the boys were like pying tasha and they were like she's basically calling her a bitch they're like she's nothing she's not real she's horrible pie in the face basically either something we didn't get shown like i think maybe something maybe she's holding them accountable somehow and we're not getting shown but they say that he she hasn't been fair to andrew she's playing a game but we haven't seen oh i haven't seen anything to suggest that if anything he has treated her like shit episode after episode and she's just forgiven him the worst thing she's done is forgive him in my opinion she cries a lot but like she's going through shit uh-huh um i liked

so far um anyone who's on love island and is not crying a lot is a different breed i don't know how you're managing that yeah um but so the whole time they were shoving these pies cream pies in her face and being like take a joke it's a game it's a game and they kept saying it's oh i'm sorry i'm going to kill i think it said it's a game. Oh, I'm sorry. Calm down. It's a game. I think it said, it's going to kill. Chamber of Secrets. To kill.

I'm going to kill. Literally. Sorry. I was going to kill as well. Get me to Mallorca or wherever it is. Where are they? Marbella? Fuck knows.

I don't know. Yeah, get me to the fucking villa, honestly. Get my passport. Fuming. It's a game, Tash. Calm down. Send them home. Sorry.

Unacceptable. Go home. You've been evicted. These are the popular boys doing this. Who? This is Luca. Luca, who will probably win it with Gemma. Well, fuck that motherfucker.

And Dami, who was in bottom two, but probably because of this shit. Gutted for him. He deserved it, Dami. Oh, my heart rate is increasing to an unhealthy level. This is why I need to stop watching it. No, I wouldn't ask. It takes up too much of my life. Like, I sit around worrying oh god i wonder about it's

gonna be okay so go on they're pying tasha they were pying tasha pying tasha and basically being like just take a joke take a joke and there's the weird thing of her having to kind of laugh through getting these cream pies being abused in her face because these men are saying oh it's a game it's a game it's obviously not a fucking game, is it? When you've all decided to bully this one girl. If the game was punch this girl in the face, you'd do it. They would do it. If the game was strip her naked, bend her over and put your fist up her bum hole, you would do it.

So don't tell me that you're not just doing exactly what you can get away with. Because you want to push the boundaries as far as possible. Because you hate her. And they basically, they got low that if the off-com reports weren't really the wall with jacks they got now they're at 3 000 a lot of them because of bullying how is this allowed i don't understand it's it's crazy it's insane um but it was just people watching it and just having to see this woman like keep basically a brave face didn't cry for the whole challenge which i thought fucking hell you're strong um and people people don't really like tasha but i don't really guess it i think it's just fun to hate her but she's

done nothing wrong um and yeah she was just that example of having to be like yeah it's a joke it's a joke and telling yourself it's a joke when obviously it's not a fucking joke it's not funny it's very you know what it is it's gaslighting yourself the way that society would gaslight you the way that luca and dami would gaslight you it's fucking insane but oh i just think it's really fucked up because it's teaching every young woman to yeah to not stand up for yourself basically it's as simple as that smile and laugh and be like i won't cause a scene because that will be embarrassing and clearly everyone already hates me um so i'm just gonna smile and take these oh god it's no it's deeply upsetting to me

i know i know we can't go on like we have to get her out of the village. Let's get this girl out. What the hell? Send a helicopter. Get her out of there. What the fuck? I'm going to sneak in behind Laura Whitmore next time. I'm sorry. It's just, it's so fucked up. It's so, so fucked up. I know.

It is scary. They both did apologise to her. But you know what the fucked up thing as well is? It's the other layer of that. Is me sat here being like, this is so fucked up love island's really bad for you is now i look like a boring bitch who's like it's just a joke it's just a tv show take a joke blah blah blah no it's like the refusal it's just trivializing abuse abuse basically yeah yeah and it's just trivializing abuse and not letting anyone be held accountable yeah yeah exactly meanwhile i'm sure tasha's probably cancelled for like wearing

the wrong outfit for being a cry baby everyone's like she's so insecure she's crying yeah there we go it's like yeah you would be wouldn't you and luca will still win it and the only reason they actually apologized clearly is because jemma was like to luca who's who he's with michael owens daughter that one was like you need to go and apologize they didn't show but that was clearly it because he was like oh jemma's saying that i need to go it's just like it's so what is this and then she basically had to forgive them and have a hug with them even though their apologies were fucking shit i hate that i hate that vibe um can i get a hug that was it can i have a cuddle me get the fuck especially in your

sweaty old swimming trunks get away sweaty dripping all over your feet it's disgusting no thank you i'm not gonna cuddle you oh just put pie in my face you freak but that whole scene was pretty much an emblem of everything that women go through in every fucking situation of their lives where it's like someone will just say something that clearly oversteps the mark and be like oh it was a joke then later they might come and apologize to you and you have pretty much no other option but to accept their shitty apology it is actually really really fucked up the things yeah it's almost like beyond just the conscious decision of being like it's all right i'm just gonna pretend i don't care blah blah

blah you almost think like oh no i actually don't care because it's not even a thing it was a joke it was a joke it really is like i was it was kind of on me i was just feeling sensitive like it's fine i completely get it it It's like, no. We are too good at making everyone else feel comfortable before, like, literally just making sure you're okay. And men are too good at making women feel uncomfortable. And not, they don't even know. They haven't, they actually don't know what they're doing.

But this is what was crazy about the ping situation was it had gone too far two pies ago. Like it had gone too far. Really? I'm going to have to watch this. And it was one of those things where it's like, yeah, it was weird. Not a good idea. It was just one of those things where it's like, God, this is now like crazy.

And they're just like laughing basically at her with pie all over her face. It's like, this is mental. You're not in year 10, mate. It's a game, Tash. It's oh what am i watching here i'm watching every woman i've ever known in a situation that they can recount to me pretty clearly where something similar happened oh that's horrible it's very sinister meanwhile she's there like in a bikini that's the fucked up thing as well yeah and they all want to fuck her as well. Gross. Gross.

I'm repulsed. Yeah. Anyway, sorry for bringing the tone right down with Love Island. No, no. Everyone loves the Love Island track. Nothing kills a combo like Love Island because it's absolutely gutsy. It's the height of the combo. Everyone loves it.

Oh, I honestly love and hate it. I can't wait for it to end because I need my life back. Really? You're really into it well it's it's not even that it's getting in the way of anything it's just my mind i can't shut off when i'm in something that i'm watching something every evening how the fuck am i supposed to which is fine when it's game of thrones but if it's reality tv it's it's too consuming it's someone people crying playing sad music and it's the whole world is watching it with you as well that's been abusing women for the fucking last month that's i'm sorry what why am i shedding a tear at this okay so how do we change a situation that has been normalized like how do you change the dynamic if you're in a situation with someone where you've been letting things slide for a couple months couple years maybe and you're

thinking look i need to change this i think first of all step one remove yourself like if you can't do anything else i feel like it's hard when you're in the thick of a situation to be like okay so we're going to change the so i'm no longer from this moment taking any shit it's like okay that's gonna be pretty difficult i feel like you maybe need like a couple days a week out of the situation so it's a relationship or something like that or job situation it's like right i've just got to not be in this for a while job is hard because it's like what you still need money but i think if you can get away your job bit. So just quit your job for a couple of days. Just say, I'm going to just go on holidays.

Take a mental health day. Keep the money coming, but I'm not going to be here for a bit. Just if you can, I think removing yourself for a while to kind of get your head straight is a good idea. Create some distance. And then I think you can go back in

with the new rules, essentially. Like, right, so since i've come back i actually think i blah blah blah i'm setting a new tone would you say that it completely depends i think yeah it just completely depends i think a few if it's something professional like a job i think you should say i think if it's something like a job where you feel yourself getting walked over and you really with the job you owe fucking nothing. They will replace you in an instant. You owe nothing.

So I think you should be like, hi, I've taken some time off my weekend. And I'm coming back in with I'm not happy with the way I'm being treated here. I think this is absolutely. I don't like the way he speaks to me and I don't like the way blah blah blah looks at me whatever you want to say and i think that is an occasion where you can actually state your case it takes a lot of fucking bravery and if you can do that prepare to lose your job that is because it's a very formal environment i do think it's it's worth the conversation but a friendship you're definitely coming with big formal energy to something that is quite casual

totally depends on the other person as well doesn't it in the sense of some people are just going to get it immediately and be like oh amazing i'll work on it i've also got things that i would like to say like and that was a conversation exactly yeah but some people might really not get it yeah and i think more likely if you're having to set boundaries of someone they're probably they might not get it because otherwise you'd squish it quite early are you good at saying no it just completely depends i think i am good at saying no but yeah i'm not i'm not gonna say yes to things i don't want to do i'm not gonna do that but i think i do find it difficult when i for example if i've said yes to something already and then i kind of

change my mind like say i said i've said yeah but you're you are you're you have a responsibility i know but i think that's when if so like if i have agreed to meet someone that i don't really want to meet and then i've been like oh no i don't want to i've made a mistake because last time they were rude or whatever i then i would struggle to get out of it i think i'm fine with being like no i don't want to do this or i don't want to do this but i think almost if i've already if i if i find myself on the night out that i didn't want to go on in the first place and then i suddenly like fuck i want to leave i think i find it difficult to get out of situations even though that should be completely normal and realistically no one's gonna give a fuck no but

it's almost like i find it really difficult to be like to cause a scene almost even though it's still the same thing like it's still just saying no yeah to leave yeah i think that's something i struggle with but i don't think i struggle to say no to like anyone yeah i'll say no all day say no to the cows come home i'm really good at well it's not a good thing but i'm really good at sneaking off that's a very very good skill to have but it's fucking hell but it's i don't i i'm not gonna i don't want to put you through the whole thing of like are you leaving you got work tomorrow are you going oh don't go oh you're going okay text me when you go i i'm not gonna hassle you with this nonsense you don't care and you're having a good time so let me just leave you let

me just slip away like you'll never even notice honestly you won't notice i'm gone in me if i do that you won't know if i disappear what and your phone is going where are you where are you who's ringing saying where are you where are you i think you're fine just ignore them until tomorrow or just give it up for now no one gives a shit yeah well that would be a great thing no one gives a shit honestly i mean maybe also try that just sneak out sneak out the bag people do know with me like if i disappeared they know i've disappeared yeah people know like that's a good thing yeah well it just makes getting home quicker obviously be safe guys like make sure people know like if you're out

that you know that you're getting home safe and whatever and blah blah blah don't be dangerous but i do slip away but that's also just because i presume that i'm not needed in situations so i can just slip off and no one would notice i mean yeah okay that's not coming from a great place that's also not true like in any way no they're all literally like where's wing no no one's saying that no one's saying that at max people saying classic wing she's gone home anyway can you give me an example of a time when you felt like i have to be cool here i have to be laid back i have to pretend i don't give a shit oh my god every fucking day of my life how sad is that i have to pretend i don't give a shit yeah it's so sad it's ridiculous pretend that you're like

emotionally dead essentially that you have no emotions that aren't completely neutral because i also think yeah part of the coolness is i think pretending that being your dead don't care but also not letting on it's like you're not allowed any emotions either side of completely neutral because you can't be completely enthusiastic either no you need to just be completely neutral i could give or take it yeah you're just killing yourself basically all of your emotions just have to be flat to be cool no fucking way it is crazy no fucking way and i hate it when i catch myself doing that you're a sex doll oh god but you are you are you've drained yourself of all personality and opinion to suit what you perceive

someone else's fantasy of you to be you've turned yourself into something that doesn't exist it's so fucked up and it's happening every day i'm seeing it with my own eyes i'm hearing it yeah yeah it's happening bleak bleak you're diluting yourself out until there's nothing left and you're washing yourself away just a walking pair of tits with his opinion with literally nothing it's crazy should we leave you on that fury maybe oh god i can't leave people on that well i don't know how to make that better just solve the little problem with the patriarchy at the end of the episode tie it up in a bow all done sent me and we fixed it well okay well maybe we do leave it there but that is a bleak ending but i hope everyone isn't bummed no i don't think people are bummed i think they're furious and i think

they're all gonna be watching love island which yeah yeah you should it's as much as it's bad it's also good yeah that's the problem i know i know all right shall we yeah thank you guys hope you're okay i think you're so cool by the way without trying i think you're all the coolest girl i've ever known i think be enthusiastic be upset be hysterical be distraught hysterical, be distraught, be fucking laughing your ass off. Be however you are. Never let yourself be drained by the pressure to be just fucking a drained old little shell of yourself. Cool. I agree.

I honestly couldn't agree more. All right. Well, if you don't hear from us. More nuts episode. If you don't hear from us... What an upset. If you don't hear from us, assume the worst.