Goes Without Saying - motherhood, marriage, & molly mae: feminine rage we are so back

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on molly mae, division amongst friends, beauty standards, and the undeniable social vulnerability of ageing as a woman. ✷see more ✷ www.youtube.com/@sephyandwing ✷ www.instagram.com/sephyandwing ✷ www.tiktok.com/@sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Back in the late 90s, I was a co-founder of Beetleology magazine. We interviewed people who knew the beetles and celebrities who collected the beetles. We're releasing those recordings for the first time and you'll hear Mark Hamill tell a classic story about meeting George Harrison on a plane. You'll hear Springsteen drummer Max Weinberg talk about what happened backstage the night John Lennon was assassinated and why Bill Maher admired Lennon's political incorrectness. It's a fascinating collection of interviews. it and why Bill Maher admired Lenin's political incorrectness.

It's a fascinating collection of interviews. Catch our special Beatles series on the Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly podcast feed. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. It goes without saying you're listening to goes without saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Sefi. And I'm Wing. This is quite a passionate episode about women, children, motherhood. I feel like I speak for us too. We're getting to the point where children, biological clock, etc, etc, is definitely

becoming more part of the rhetoric that we're hearing. And I think we're doing a bit of a, it feels like a bit of a deep dive, but also somehow like we've only scratched the surface about kids, decisions that women make, men obviously are coming into it, and a little bit of K-pop as well somehow. Enjoy. Okay. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm good. a little bit of kpop as well somehow. Enjoy! Okay. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm good, how are you? Yeah I'm good. Shall we address the fact that we kind of ghosted you guys just for a week? Yeah we're so sorry, just things got a bit stressful last week so it was just not really doable. It wasn't doable and now we are back. Like nothing happened. Yeah, we're back for more.

Please take us back with open arms. Oh please, goodness me. I would hate to think that a week is all it takes. I'm also intrigued for this episode because I feel like it's obviously, it's the crux essentially of life. Also, it's not something we speak about like in depth. I feel like we're always kind of touching on it

and we just kind of like add a new little, a new little droplet of information, comes out out in our real lives comes out in the app I feel like I was saying I think this will be a good topic for today because I feel like we can speak quite freely on it Like neither are also gonna get upset or start crying to my knowledge Like I'm touching wood like I mean it feels like you know It's something we care and that we're passionate enough about it that we can have like a really interesting engaging Conversation that we both are interested in and give a shit about. We've got thoughts but the thoughts still feel quite distant. It doesn't feel like a topic that

is... it's not Charlie XCX, I think about it. I think about it all the time. It's like, I think about this every now and then. And I think it's like we're passionate enough that we can have something that it's like, oh I really I'm intrigued to your thoughts and I feel Enthusiastic when expressing my own but yeah, it's not gonna bring me to tears touch wood. That would be hilarious if this derails I don't know why we're being so confident because we never truly know no you and you never know you never know what life has in store So do you have anything to kick us off? Oh god, no, of course I don't. Okay, I can take it then.

Go for it. Okay, so I was gonna say we kind of touched on this recently. I can't remember exactly what we were saying, but we were I think generally going in with the angle of like if you're feeling a little bit aware of time passing and expectations put on you and a degree of like uncertainty of how you're moving forward in terms of your life and the potential of you, for example, as a mother, then you're not alone and these are things that, yeah, we're all thinking about often. Also it's coming up more and more, like really is, and it does just seem to come up, obviously, more and more as you age.

I feel like it just, it's not like a sudden overnight, suddenly everyone's talking about kids, it's like you can physically feel the increase in these comments and these sort of, it coming up within your own mind and just adds conversations with your friends. And even the media that's directed at you as well. You can just see, there's just an increase in frequency as you get older about this topic, which is weird because it doesn't feel that long ago. That god, me and my friends were not sitting around being like so when do you want to have kids? That was not a topic.

The switch, when it switches you feel it. Definitely. I also think something I've definitely experienced is is depending on where I am in my life physically and like who I'm physically surrounded by the conversations that I'm having around this topic can be very different and One I think that really sticks out is like I know that for example I've got like a certain I was gonna say wing of friends I've got some branch of friends or like people from a certain Then whatever there are certain people that I know that will be like, you know, it's not happening for a few years

Like yeah, I'm interested but you know, I'm gonna keep that on the back burner for the time being. It's not I'm not having kids right now On the other side. I have a friend who our other friend said to her Are you gonna think about freezing your eggs because you're getting a bit old when we were 24 So There's definitely Are you gonna think about freezing your eggs because you're getting a bit old when we were 24? Jesus Christ! There's definitely... Who is this fear monger? Fear monger! Fear monger, honestly.

So there's definitely differing opinions and there's different narratives flying around left and right. Honestly like bullets. It's absolutely insane though because I will say that somebody saying that, so much of this conversation I have found to be other people pushing their agendas. Honestly, an agenda. Pushing their agendas to validate their own decisions. Correct. So, so, so, so, so much of that,

especially with this anxiety that I have seen amongst my peers. And I agree that I have certain branches, like my friends from school are, like one, I met my friend the other day who's just had, she's got two kids, she's just had her second child. Congratulations. So, so sweet congratulations, I just met the little baby, little babba. So cute. And my friends from school definitely seem way more open to the idea of like having them soon. Whereas my friends from uni,

and yeah, they just seem way more, I don't know. Pre-occupied with other things. Lessing, that is not really a topic that we discuss as like around the corner, but I have friends from school that are way more like, god we're getting old all of this stuff and I often say I don't think I don't think that's true yeah and I do think it is it completely is difficult to get when you're in one circle to sort of try and explain the opposing um point of view to the other group I sometimes find quite difficult

of like, I actually think that, I don't know, I have more friends that aren't thinking about children than are thinking about children. But when I speak to my friends that are thinking about children, they discuss it with an urgency and that almost comes with just this huge pressure of like, are you should be doing this.

It's like, maybe not though. Definitely maybe not though. There's a lot of maybe not though going on I think, which I think is really important. I think it's quite important. I think it's really important. I also think when it comes to having kids, it's obviously, it's a huge, your whole life will change.

That I think is undeniable. And I think it's a huge choice for someone's life, so much so that it's almost like, it's a very personal choice, but it's like a social, it's like an experience within the society, like it's almost like a communal, you do something, you make a choice in your own life that I think people feel the awareness of what they have or haven't done

maybe projects onto other people who are doing the same or different things as if you're putting your opinion on them, if that makes sense. I'm not finding the best way to describe that, but I'm sure you're following. No, it is kind of hard to describe. It is hard because.

It's like if I bought a red car, if red cars were super meaningful in life, I bought a red car, you might meet me and be like, why does she just want, I bought a red car, you might meet me and be like, why does she just want me to get a red car? Like, what the fuck? I don't want to insult red cars because maybe she'll take it personal. But I think because it is such a huge, huge, huge decision, that almost, whichever way you sit on that, it almost can sometimes be read as like an insult to the decisions you

have made, which I think as a society we have a huge issue with. Like this is why I have found potentially older people that are quite dissatisfied with their lives often try and project like this is what you need to do and it often looks suspiciously familiar to the path that they took. Like it always... You must have experienced that, Harry, when you're at sort of a family party and there's some great aunt being like, oh, you just need to be a secretary. It's like, mm.

Why haven't you thought of blah, blah, blah and it's like what you did. I think that's because you worked as a secretary. Yeah, and I'm glad you seem to have positive feelings about it so much so that you would recommend it. But I do think it's kind of- But often it doesn't come with a recommendation, it comes with like a-

Instruction. You must do this. And it's like, what did you do? Oh, I was a recommendation it comes with like instruction you must do this It's like what did you do? Oh, I was the exact thing that I'm recommending you to do. So true I think that even doesn't it feel so different as well Like in terms of like if everyone Harry here has experienced some Some say ancient person, but is that really weird? some older person Being like you should do this this

and this that is so much easier to take for me personally in my experience and I'm sure people can I'm being true to hear how this sits with everybody I'd rather take some old schmuck talking to me and being like you should do this this and this that's going in one ear and out the other I appreciate the. And if it's coming with love, I really appreciate the sentiment. But generally it's like, yeah, you know, if you're coming in with the instruction, you don't necessarily know me

and it's not from a place of love. And you don't really know the times anymore. Yeah, it's not really relevant to me. You're out of touch, love. And that's fine. It's more a symptom of like, yeah, you're out of touch. It's more a symptom of just, you had something you had to get off your chest

and I was here on the receiving end and that's fine. Versus when it's kind of someone that I would in many ways associate as my peer, if I feel like I'm getting some level of instruction or even beyond instruction, judgment from someone in a similar age to me or someone I've always been friends with or I've always felt aligned to or I've always kind of been relatively on a similar path,

that I think is a lot harder to stomach because it always kind of been relatively on a similar path that I think is a lot harder to stomach because it is kind of like, some of you might not know what we look like, but if I was like, God, I would never like, you know, cut my hair and have my hair dark brown. Let's have you got short dark hair. Do you know what I mean? It's like, okay. It just raises some questions of why you're saying that to that exact person. It totally does. Yeah. Or like, Oh oh have you thought about maybe like cutting your hair short? We don't speak about a lot of personal choices in the same way that we speak about pregnancy and motherhood and all of these things. It seems to be like that's the one that we feel like entitled to comment on in other people's lives.

Totally. Well you can only look at the women that choose not to have children, and the way they're treated is if their lives are filled with regret. Mishavishen. And like, rejection and all of this stuff, and it's like, that obviously, obviously is not fucking true. Like.

Can we actually say, I'm so sorry, we had a bit of a mishavishen moment, or I felt like it was a mishavishen moment. Oh my god, this was crazy. The other night. Have you guys heard of this thing, Dear alice. wait let's actually let's give dear alice its fucking moment. yeah. so we somehow thank you everybody say thank you freya. we ended up at this screening of let's call it I'm calling it a premiere. a premiere

let's say. but it was definitely a screening. but it was a screening, right? Of the first episode of a TV show called Made in Korea, the K-pop Experience, I think. And it features this, there's basically, they've put this boy band together, they're called Dear Alice, and shall we reel off their names or is that embarrassing? Yes, okay, okay, let's do them one by one. Okay, Blaze. Reese. Um, Olly? James. Dexter. Done it. That's embarrassing. So basically the crux of what

I'm gonna say is they're like 20 years old. No, I think it's 19 to 22. Like they're children. Jesus. That's embarrassing. Children. But Wing was crying in the screening. No, I cried my eyes out. There was just a beautiful moment where one of their... Who was it? What one was it? It was Ollie's's nan Ollie's nan and his mom I think they were at the airport waving him off for him obviously to go to Korea you guys get the gist I'm sure she was like, you know, you're a good-looking boy I was sobbing I was sobbing and then we were lucky enough to see an exclusive sneak preview of we were lucky enough to see an exclusive sneak preview of one of their performances coming from episode 3. Can't wait to watch. I genuinely am excited to watch. Like I need to track down this show.

Me too. My friend messaged me last night with a- she sent a photo. She's watching it. Made in Korea on the TV. Okay, perfect. So I have to- So it's on BBC. You can watch it on iPlayer guys. Get your TV licenses going. This is not an advert. We just weren't very heard. No, no, it's not. It's not an advert at all. We just really had a great time. It was incredible. And Alice were there at the screening and all their family and friends were there and they were like whooping and stuff. It was so cute. Yeah. It was so, so, so cute. Do you know who I loved? The something, the K-pop cowboy. Oh my god, yeah. Does anyone here know him? Who is this guy? I don't know. He got up, so this was like the, we all walked into

this huge cinema and it messed square as new world had best seats in the house, we went in early to ensure the best seats. Also we were absolutely starved straight away that popcorn was cracked open. We were so hungry. We were really hungry. There was a bit before where you're all supposed to be sort of milling around and all we could do was like can we go and get food and bring it up. I was like I might actually ask at the bar if there's any scraps. We did actually go to the bar to ask for scraps. We went to the bar just to see if there was anything like loitering around a packet of crisps. There was nothing. No there was nothing. But then we got into the screening and there was as kind of maybe expected there was a bag of popcorn on each seat. Yeah. God we tossed people weren't even seated yet and we were sitting in our seats like tearing into the popcorn. Making the most of it. We really had a great time. Also we were supposed to be like milling about, like talking to people and we were sitting down on our own.

And then it started, we cried. We laughed, we cried, we had a grand old time. But the- It was so good. The moral of that was obviously they had family and friends there so the demographic of that room was either kind of 20 year olds. It was two things. Or 60 year olds.

And then me and Sefi turned up at 27. And I actually, I was saying to you the next day, I was like, I actually felt like an old hag. Like I felt like Miss Havisham. Like it was- And it bled into your ear as well. My following day. Yeah, because then the next day I was like

in the changing rooms, like trying on clothes. And I was like, oh God, you old hag. And then I put, yeah, I was trying on my outfit. I was like, God, honestly, Ms. Halversham over here. Like, I felt a bit- So that is crazy. Yeah, no, it is. And you were like, look, we're not the oldest here.

And I was like, yes, because the oldest here is like 67, so I think. Yeah, we were a weird middle age. No! We were, we were. We were a very strange age to be there. We were just a few years beyond. We were not in our early 20s and it shows.

The thing that I felt that was most sort of jarring to me is so this is a collection, it's a boy band being formed, sort of One Direction style. Yeah, we'll see where this is going, yeah. And I have, you know, I think it was the first time that I'm looking at, so okay, Harry Styles, all that lot, you're watching them, Justin Bieber, you're watching, they're always older than you.

You're always looking at them as like aspirational boyfriends. Until they're not. Harry Styles, Zayn Malik, oh my god, JB, I can't believe in you, Jonah. They're always older than you. Yeah, you're always looking at them as like until they're not boyfriends Harry Styles, Zayn Malik. Oh my god, JB. I can't anything you're thinking. Oh god I'm always too young for these boys and they say like you can you're in you fancy them all it's just huge I was looking at this boy band and I was literally like, oh my god These are the most desirable, you know They've curated this for like girls to be obsessed with and they're fucking children. Like this is crazy.

Like this is the first time I have not enjoyed a boy pant. Yeah, it was sad. I felt like I was enjoying it, very mumsy way. I was like, oh, look at him, his little cardigan. Oh, you look so handsome in your little jumper. So embarrassing. It was really weird to watch them all there like having their photos taken and being like,

oh my God, they're kids. But they were so cute. I wish them all the best. I follow them on Instagram because I want them to do so well, I love them. We want the updates. Also, I had such a weird thing. I was talking about them in a cafe the other day,

day before yesterday. I was saying, like, oh sitting outside a cafe chatting my ear off about Dear Alice yeah as you do and there was a guy sitting opposite me like it's sort of a truly middle-aged man like 50 year old man who had headphones in and as I said the name Dear Alice he took his headphones out and I saw him like tune into the conversation he obviously heard Dear Alice took them out and was like trying to pretend not to listen that's very obviously listening and he listened to the whole conversation.

I really had an audience. Did you put on a show? Did you up the ante a bit? I was very not what, I thought maybe it could be one of their dads or like someone involved. So I was really hyping them up. Yeah.

I was like, Reese is a star, Blaze. Oh, what a dancer. Dexter's my star. He's my fave. Which one? Dexter. That's the one that I'm star, he's my fave. Which one? Dexter. That's the one that I'm like, that's my little son. Reese. I love Reese so much. Reese the cutie boy. Yeah they're all really- you should watch them.

It actually pays off to send us to your screenings guys, cause we don't shut up about things. It literally does. This is an episode about kids, although it does kind of fit in. It does fit in, cause we're a hundred years old now. Yeah. Also on this kind of same angle of like aging as a woman and also just the vulnerability that is inherent with being a young woman, knowing that you either die or you will age in this world and you will watch people record, okay, two things here.

Yeah. First thing, there was a tweet that kind of blew up recently and it was this really stunning girl and it was like a little, she'd put a little cute picture of her kind of pouting, but the text was really interesting. She was saying, I'm so gonna butcher it, because she'd written it just perfectly for a tweet to go viral,

but it was the gist of her being like, walking down the street, the awareness of a husband and their wife, older, and the husband turns to look at me and knowing how I'm making her feel. And also the awareness that one day I will be her. So much. And it really blew up.

And there was a huge discourse around like loads of people like, all right, bragging, interesting, right? Wait, what? Yes, truly. And then there was a response. So people being like, so a pretty girl can't have thoughts. There was just, there was. Also it was nothing to do with prettiness well then people

were like why have you well no totally it is that's the point that is totally the point it's a great point to make and it's a huge valid really fascinating phenomenon that all girls experience. quite timeless point. yes totally it's a beautiful point. it's nothing oh my god that's actually insane that that's how people took it. it's like do you not understand it's actually a critique of the patriarchy. it is of course it is as all things should be. yeah. um the second point i was gonna make was about molly may. i every time i talk about this i get full body shivers. yeah. i was talking about last night in pizza express and oh my god i was shivering in there with my pizza. your marble table awaits you. i actually wouldn't

mind a ubit pizza expressed out or like maybe the next week. i was shivering in there with my pizza. your marble table awaits you. i actually wouldn't mind a ubit pizza express out or like maybe the next.. i've had two in the last two weeks. okay fine. but do you know what i'm about to be? silver member. no way! wait wait i went to wakomama's yesterday and i used my vip edamame! oh my god no i went but i didn't use the free um edamame. why? i don't know why I didn't, I just didn't really think of it. And then afterwards I was like, could I have got free edamame? Free edamame? Well next time. Also then I got a message after I was at Wagon Mamas from a listener saying they were sitting

right next to me. Oh! Hello! Hello! You should have said hi. If you ever see us in public, please, please, please say hi. Yeah, please, honestly. I like to know when I'm in the danger zone.

Yes, stop it. I want to put on a good- And please say hi because it's just so nice. I want to put my mess foot forward for you guys. Those are actually my favourite moments ever, it's so nice. So cute. Yeah, Molly May, I just, I am thinking, look, I don't want to capitalise on this real life girl's real life experience. If you're foreign to this story, to this intriguing tale basically, Love Island I'm sure you know. Molly May and

Tommy Fury were a couple made on Love Island five years ago. Got together, Molly May was really a star, star of the series. She's like the most successful Love Islander in history I think. And she's totally like a huge, I mean in the UK she's really at the forefront of like especially like social media talent. She's absolutely at the forefront of especially social media talent. She's absolutely humongo. Had a baby not even two years ago with Tommy Bambi. Yeah, Lizzie was saying Bambi's like one or something? One and a half.

Yeah. Jesus. Absolutely horrific. She's 25 years old, I believe, Molly May. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Back in the late 90s, I was a co-founder of Beetleology magazine. We interviewed people who knew the Beatles and celebrities who collected

the Beatles. We're releasing those recordings for the first time and you'll hear Mark Hamill tell a classic story about meeting George Harrison on a plane. You'll hear Springsteen drummer Max Weinberg talk about what happened backstage the night John Lennon was assassinated and why Bill Maher admired Lennon's political incorrectness. It's a fascinating collection of interviews. Catch our special Beatles series on the Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly podcast feed. and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

There are a lot of- Same school year as Lizzie, so she's really obsessed with both, Tommy and Molly are both same school year as Lizzie, so I feel like she's really like hooked into them, like she really has been hit quite hard by the news. Yeah, no, it is. I think a lot of people have been hit quite hard with the news.

I saw a lot of people being like, quite hard with the news. I saw a lot of people being like Here she is Princess Diana has risen Why does it feel like that though? I think so basically short long story short The goes without saying version of this would be just to fill you guys in on what we're about to speak about in terms of like concepts of Women women in the public eye, women as mothers, yeah, women in relationships with straight men. And how they treat the mothers.

There publicly has been a lot of awareness or conversation on what has been perceived as Tommy Fury's absence in his relationship with Molly May and as a dad to a small child, there's been a lot of conversation about, for a long time, about Tommy maybe not being deserving of Molly or not showing up for her or their baby. We don't know these people. And I do feel like, I feel like some people are gonna be like, why are you like bending over backwards

for Molly May so much, like, ick. But I do feel like people these are they're always real life people when we're talking about like concepts and stuff but and also it's people that are i mean let's be real she must be having the fucking worst time like it's actually so harrowing like it's absolutely it's actually so fucking horrible and i think when you see someone become a mother and like struggle with that experience and also be very Vulnerable and open whilst you're seeing the dad like very generous boxing fights during The whole thing is icky and then you hear what's happened and it's like why did it feel so inevitable? And heartbreaking at the same time like it's just really really what I want, especially for the fucking baby that's involved.

Yeah, exactly. And that's the, to be honest, I don't know if you guys have caught onto this, but the crux of all things go to that saying is don't do that to the babies. Think of the children, honestly. The crux of everything we do is would you mind taking care of that child? I think that's the crux of everything we do. Would you mind? I swear that's inconvenient to you. Honestly, taking care of the child wouldn't go amiss. So there's a lot of conversation as well around perhaps some cheating allegations, getting other girls pregnant allegations, getting up to God knows what allegations. So removing,

I guess, in a technical sense, removing Molly May and Tommy Fury and Bambi as individuals from this and just looking at- I love the name bambi so much by the way i hate how much that got roasted i literally i'm shocked again shippers when i heard that name bambi fury are you kidding me the power behind that name she's already a star intriguing to me how much flak that got it was horrific it was absolutely horrific it's also such a like literally such a cute name what i think is really sick about that is that's like, literally like, I'm assuming she was like 23 at the time, 24 maybe, to literally a young woman has just,

God, I mean, everything that goes into having a baby, she's brought human life into this earth. She's in this bubble of being so captivated by her baby. And instead of being able to have like the full, wholesome loving ethereal experience of that she's removing her comments on instagram because everyone's having a go at her for the way that she's named her child i just find it absolutely insane and then the fact that she comes back wait till you fucking hear what i'm gonna call my kids you guys aren't

gonna be able to come but also like then comes back like day after day and is sharing her life like I think there's something like there's so many problems and I get the the huge critiques over Molly May like they are so valid but also the the desperate the literally desperation to hate on a successful woman is so crazy like even if she wasn't successful just a woman that you can see but I think is that there's the fact that she people feel that she's undeserving of the money yeah so there's a vapidness it's a love island thing it's so yeah so misogyny as well horrific actually so just speaking in abstract terms here about generally the ideas of young women changing

their whole lives. I always say your body and your prime as we know it. You're changing everything. You're giving up what you have today and turning it in in exchange for something that you don't know what it's gonna look like tomorrow. You're giving up everything you ever know. You don't know how it's gonna feel. It's gonna be completely changed. Everything you know will be different. You've got milk coming out of your boobs. I cannot conceive of that at the moment. I literally cannot understand how that would feel to have milk inside my boobs. that is a huge... I can tell I'm thirsty now. because I'm always thinking if there was milk coming out of my boobs I would have a sip so I'm just gonna have some tea. I would definitely try it. it's a bit mental to not I think think. Tastes my contribution. Compliments to the chef.

It's also like, oh god, don't let me get on the vegan angle, but that is just completely mental how we view breast milk as a society. No, but it's just crazy for you to be like, I can't picture how it feels like for milk to be coming out of my boobs and me be like, I'm kind of thirsty. It makes perfect sense. It's not biological. Yeah, it's biological. You have drunk it many a time in your life. I actually haven't. you never were breastfed? no i think i actually think did it all start there. god okay well that's really interesting. yeah but i do think yeah that sounds delicious. i mean also yeah probably this is why your mouth is watering at the thought. yeah. but

also breastfeeding is a whole fucking thing anyway. exactly that in itself. i always get killed so late. i can imagine that. i was like doing a whole fucking thing anyway. Exactly that in itself. I was like two in a marble tub there. I can imagine that. That also explains a lot. I was like two in a marble tub there. My sister was like three. Wait, why does this explain so much about us? Literally, I was so well fed as a child on that breast milk. But even obviously that in itself is such a, that in itself is shaming everyone in different

ways. It's like the mother who doesn't, or who can't breastfeed is shamed and the mother who chooses to keep breastfeeding is shamed and just the fact that you're here in a woman basically any woman yeah just take some shame why don't you also after you've just done this kind of like absolutely insane harrowing incredible miraculous terrifying thing yeah now let's talk about the milk yeah you're doing that a bit wrong.

You want to feed this baby? Not in public you don't. How dare you? Meanwhile the dad just gets praised if he does one walk around the baby with a little buggy. Babysitting today. Oh what an amazing dad. It's crazy. Unbearable. So this is what as well in terms of like relationships in the public eye, I as well as someone who always comes in as a Debbie Downer,

I, you guys know, if you're asking me personally, I think all relationships are doomed. Love isn't real, especially like long lasting love. Like, yeah, good luck with that. Like you absolute naive fool to think that you for whatever reason could be an anomaly in this hateful hateful world. If you are in a loving relationship you better

get used to the idea that that's gonna end imminently. yeah. that's my journey. I second that. I second that motion. whatever motion whatever it is. no I can't lie guys it's just unrealistic. it's actually unrealistic.

as someone who's been in a long-term relationship I just think yeah this must be on its way out short. it must be. like I actually don't know how. it's crazy. it's crazy. like I'm actually skeptical of my own existence. Anyway, I often then, when I see relationships

in the public eye, obviously I go in with my skepticism because I can't help it, but my natural instinct is always to take so much love and confidence from that and I really draw on, for example, someone like Molly May, speaking so confidently about her relationship and making such a bold choice. I really admired that of like, you're so vulnerable in your life, you share so much.

So you're, you know, it's like the devastation or like humiliation or whatever, all of the harrowing feelings you would feel to go through something not working, times it by a million and do it in front of everyone you've ever known, everyone who's ever seen you, it's just crazy. And then whenever I see people feeling really confident in their relationships it really makes me feel

like oh god okay maybe these things do work. So then when they don't work I'm like oh I fucking know it. It confirms the bias. Of course yeah of course it does which is really dangerous and really horrible and just sad for everyone involved. But it also is a reminder of the real risks that we take as young women to commit to men and to make huge decisions like bringing a human child into the world if that's what we can do, touch wood, I'm touching wood for everyone involved.

Yeah. You know? You told me a thing that I really, really loved, because I feel like my huge thing that I worry about, or one of the main things that I think, let alone not being financially stable, not, you know, there's so many things that I would want to do,

I would want to be, there's so many things I want my life to be before I would consider having a child. But one of the main things I think I will really struggle with is a resentment towards men, especially in terms of fatherhood. And the sacrifices that I will have to make for my body, my life, the way that I'm viewed as a woman, my sexuality, everything. There's so much that is my freedom, like everything. There's so many sacrifices I specifically am making as a woman that I don't think anyone in their fucking right mind can say is equal to what the man is doing in any way. But there is

an agreement, a strange kind of agreement in society, that that child is half and half of both of you. That is an accepted thing. This is that is the mum and the dad and that is an equal sort of partnership that you have on the child yet the labour is not reflected in that in any way. And whilst I don't think it's about sort of claiming ownership over this child, I do think it's really alarming how the difference of almost the disparity between what a woman has to do and go through and what a man is expected to do to be a dad or a mum, they are completely different roles and I don't think that is an accepted discourse

at all. Like I think I will feel very, very resentful to a man feeling like they've done a lot because they fucking loaded a dishwasher whilst I have done this like I think that will be a real struggle especially when there's a baby involved. Yeah, I think I'm going to struggle with that for sure. I love this thing that you told me about the girl being like, if you want to have a baby with me, you have to do these things. And I don't, this is a, I love this because it's actually fucking mental. Like it's actually so deranged and I don't see a man agreeing with it ever. And I would personally wouldn't want my child or father or whatever to do this for many reasons because it involves a tattoo as well. We'll get to that. But I absolutely love the fact that this is seen as so like, it's seen as like really

audacious but actually is not even one percent of what she's going through. Can't even remotely be compared. Yeah, yeah, go on. So but go on, tell it, no go on. so but go on tell it no go on i love it. so i believe she said if i have a baby with you a man i want two things in exchange. the first is i need i would like you know you can get me a car i'd prefer a house like something that is just like a big gesture to keep me stable because i'm bringing your child into the world. second thing i want as i am changing my body forever i expect expect, for example,

a tattoo of my face on yours. As I have given up the way that my body looks today, it will be changed forever. Therefore, as your commitment to me for doing this thing that you physically cannot do, in exchange, you will honour me by putting my face on your body marked forever. Sefiates it up! And so did I, frankly. i think it's iconic. i think that is what i definitely think generally. whether those things are the things that you would want someone to do. exactly. i think it really really really points at the fact that men really get away with doing nothing. they do fucking nothing for this. all they do is have sex. no they have a great time. they have a great time. Time for their lives.

Which statistically maybe you didn't. They just guaranteed had a great time in this thing. Yeah, goes without saying. And they get all of this stuff from it. They get to literally reap the rewards, let alone the, like the labor that they're doing, obviously is completely insufficient, usually. I'm yet to see one where the labor has been sufficient. But then also the body

stuff is actually fucking like inconceivably crazy. But tell me one man, one man you would know that would do that, that would get the face tattooed and all of that. It's crazy. Well I was gonna say what I love about it is yeah, not necessarily asking for a tattoo if that's not what you want, but I do think it symbolizes to me an awareness of like look this is obviously a thing that I'm putting my essentially as well physically my life on the line for something that benefits you therefore you know if you're in a loving relationship with a man I do think there should be an expectation.

That to me would be an alarm bell. If I was having a baby with a man and I said I want a car or a house, and if I wanted a tattoo, whatever, blah, blah, blah, of me on him, I would be alarmed if that was rejected. It would inform my decision to not have a baby with them. One, well, the tattoo really confused me because it's just like, don't, please don't get that, please do not get that.

But it's essential that if I'm deciding to have a baby with you, I'm going into it knowing that you, you know, don't ask don't get. What I want I will have to get. There will be constant contributions in order to... You won't even remotely come close to the fact that what this woman has, I mean, I can't walk with a dog after 4pm in the winter. Like, yeah, we'll always be in my debt and therefore. And it's easy to say, I wish I could do it for you. It's very easy. I love, love, love that woman actually saying,

here's a way that you can actually show me that all of this stuff. Totally. And I imagine that the comments under that video, whatever it was, I don't know where you first saw it, were a lot of men saying this is outrageous. Absolutely. Also, I had a really frustrating conversation recently. It was kind of interesting but also I really didn't get my point across in it and I probably won't again now and that's absolutely fine. But I was having a conversation about like name changes when people get married and it kind of brings up a similar thing of like men love to say oh I wish I could do this

thing well I believe in equality but when it comes to it there's a million reasons why they won't do it and can't oh I would oh no but yeah if only I could just carry the baby if only I could just do with it yeah right. So easy to say. Yeah right. I was talking about the idea that when you get married the woman changes the name and joins the man's, gets the man's name and it's like just a complete dismissal of her own identity and blah blah blah. It's all about to a friend and the friend's boyfriend and I was, I'm not going to

say too much, my friend has got an absolutely stunning name like it's just so beautiful and she's going to change it to the man's surname which I think kind of brings it down a little bit, which I said to her as well. I'm just like, you know, I don't think you should do that. You're giving away something so stunning for something so, you know, average. Also, I'm so sorry to just interject, and it does go without saying,

but I do think it's a good reminder of like, the physical admin, the labor that it takes to actually change your name, the physical like upheaval, the back and forth that you have to do to maintain a name change is a huge asking. Just the assumption you should do that. Right, so go on. Crazy. Yeah. It's absolutely crazy and I was like basically my cousin has just got married and her husband took her surname which I think is so cool but also should be kind of this you know why should it

shouldn't be like why is that Shouldn't break the ground, yeah. But I saw as a massive green flag from him. And I was saying, oh, it's such a shame that you have to change your surname. Would you ever like be open to like changing yours to the husband? No, they're not even engaged. The boyfriend, the guy.

Yeah, this guy. The imaginary husband, the guy. The guy of the current moment. And he was like no I would never change my surname proud of my surname oh yeah no no women are proud of their surname and I was like but she's proud of hers oh yeah no it did but also I couldn't really say anything because it was you know but I'm also just trying to point at inconsistencies in life. That's the problem. There are two choices in this world, be honest or have a nice day. Exactly. It's such a tough decision and so often it's worth choosing the nice day but on this time,

actually I did kind of choose the nice day but I also just wanted to just poke it slightly. Just get a little something going. So he's proud of his surname so he would never do that, it's his dad's name and his dad's name before that and And I was like, yeah, but that's her dad's name. Oh really? It's not my dad's name. But yeah, no, exactly. But her name is her dad's name. And he was like, yeah, but then it's not really because then it's like not the mum's name. And it's like, but why do you, what is this strange assumption that your dad means more to you as a man than her dad means to her as a woman? What is that?

Oh God, that's actually quite, that's definitely a bad take. It's an interesting one but I actually thought and he was like well it's just tradition, like there was just this assumption that she would be doing that and she's very happy to and I'm not speaking on her heart until I'm purely talking from my own screen. No this is all Sethie, we can see that in my laugh. But the idea that someone would assume that I'm willing to get rid of my identity, I've been called my entire life regardless of the fact that it's not my mum's name or my dad's name. Like the fact that I would not be as connected to my father.

But what does that mean if it's not your mum's name? How dare you? He means that every time that a woman gets married they shed their identity so you can't even trace it back that far. But it's still coming from the dad i'm connected to my dad why the fuck should i run into my dad's name because you don't want to run into your dad's name oh i'm getting actually a bit pissed off insane yeah i mean it's in my opinion an unacceptable take for 2024 that's going in one ear and out the other unfortunately but it's crazy it's like's like my children shall have my name because I am the one that births them.

I am the one that I assume will be doing the heavy lifting of raising them. They are my children as much as yours, if not, I'm gonna say it more, I am the one that will have their names. And I think it's absolutely crazy to have it as the standard that they get the dad's name. I think, and then even more so,

the one you get married that you take it. I just think it's absolutely insane that we're still talking about this. I do also think there is a certain element of added cheek to the conversation when it's like I've got actually a very nice surname believe it or not like thank you very much and yours is a bit shit therefore. Well that was what I was saying I was like but you're giving up an alliteration for this. Why would you do that? I wouldn't personally you know that much. you're giving up an alliteration. yeah no no no no. look there are lots of different people have personal relationships to their name to their family to their identity. does the name be called your whole life? a decision to change it should be it's just absolutely. it should not be default

it should not be. it shouldn't be something expected of you it should be like a real active decision of like, okay, how do I feel about my name? What do I want my, you know, if I'm, if we're talking about surnames, if we're making a family together, okay, what's the surname of that family? Like what, it's so much, how do I feel about my name?

Like, how do I feel about my family? How do you feel about yours? How do we feel about these names? Do we think we could do something new? Like, anything other than an active choice is fucked up. A lot of men are open to the idea of a double-barreled surname. That's not, that's fine, but we're meeting halfway.

I do find it funny that the options seem to be that the woman switches their name to the man's surname or it's double-barreled. The man is never, I have ever really seen, other than in my cousin's situation. But in all these conversations I have, there seems to be literally an insane resistance to the idea, or like almost an absurdity, almost like the girl asking for a tattoo of the face. It's met with like an absurdity, well I would never give up my surname completely, well why would I do that? They

physically cannot understand it when it's something that is so normalised that every woman should do. Well it's also something that girls have been getting their head around since they were literally two years old and they could understand like words. Literally. Like you've been- That your name is not forever. You've been primed for this, yeah.

And it should be an active choice in a celebration. And to me, if I was with someone and I was looking to get married and do a whole name changing situation and they had a shit surname or a name that they didn't feel particularly connected to or whatever and they still refused me or they had some sort of reluctance to... I'm not doing it. Because they feel connected to their surname. No I'm not doing it. Oh well of course I'll honor your connection to your surname but have you ever

considered my connection to my name? Do you even like me? why are we even doing this? do you like me as a person? do you see me as a person? but with absolute bollocks excuses like tradition it's like sorry we can't be talking about things like this. i would have never have called you traditional young man and yet here you are suddenly conservator. let's look at the traditions that you obviously can now reject and the ones that you cling to. It's very intriguing. So frustrating. Hey hey hey well. Wow okay I'm so sorry. No no no I liked that. Well this is kind of what I wanted because it's like look I'm not gonna go to bed crying and we're not gonna get in

a scrap about it like it's all it's all well and good like I've got used to what this earth is like nobody's shocked here but also yeah this is all old but we have enough to say this is as old as time as humans itself like this is old old old shit but we love to dig we do love to dig we love to dig up the grave so fascinating like i really do like the way that i see some people shifting but i personally i'm not saying the shift happened quite fast enough like it's still frustrating every time that i met with the like um the resistance to like acknowledge a woman as a human being with just like a personal history and everything it's crazy i mean if you're not even willing to hear out why i might like my own surname i don't know why i've made a big booboo getting with you in the first place what was i thinking but but but she was saying i'm happy to

well maybe it's just the way that we tell saying I'm happy to. Well maybe it's just the way that we tell women that they should do that. It's just the whole thing. I'll be looking in the room thinking I fucked up. And I'll be like how is Sefi let me get away with this for so long. I would be like Jesus why has no one called me out when it's a bit concerning. Anyway, anywho, let's get out of here. Thanks guys. This has felt like a really, you know, there's been like, Dear Alice was in this episode. Yeah! And it all links back, Molly Mae. We're thinking of. Molly Mae. Genuinely.

Sending love to Molly Mae right now. And to Bambi as well. And to everyone who feels connected to anything. Yeah, not just them, everyone else. Yeah, yeah, and to Bambi. Shout out Bambi, it's like, excuse us. Shout out Bambi Fury. No, always, always. Well, look, the only thing I care about in this life

is innocent babies. Truly. And you guys. Yeah. And just women, to be honest. Exactly. Feeling empowered to make the decisions that feel good for you.

I hope if this conversation has resonated with you in any particular way, you understand that we're coming with love and that you feel seen by it and that we're always trying to like validate your active choices as like a human being who should be respected and like celebrated as an individual. Yeah. We love, we love, we love. Yeah. If you don't hear from us, assume the worst. Hey, listeners, want to diversify your portfolio easily? The All-in-One ETFs from Fidelity Investments Canada lets you do just that. Each ETF provides exposure to stocks, bonds, and crypto so you can potentially maximize

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