Goes Without Saying - Narcissists Saying No Power Dynamics Cult Leader Dupe

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on exploitation & conformity, consent, reality tv culture, weaponised wellness and 'therapy speak'. ✷see more ✷ youtube @sephyandwing ✷ instagram @sephyandwing ✷ tiktok @sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk

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and they've got their eyes closed while you're talking. It's like, you're not listening. You are not listening. You are thinking about how you look whilst you are listening. But on a macro scale, this system is set up to exploit you and you are being exploited. Even if you're enjoying it, you are being exploited. You might be enjoying it and being exploited at the same time.

Those two things are not separate. That is not mutually excluded. I know exactly what the fuck you're going to do. You're going to conform because that's what every other person in that situation does. This stuff is so simple. What do people do? There have been countless studies on this.

What do people do when someone in a position of power tells them to do something, they do it. Every fucking time. Goes Without Saying. You're listening to Goes Without Saying with Seffi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Seffi. This is like a huge, big hitter of an episode.

We're really going in on a lot of fucked up stuff. We're kind of unpacking like egomaniac narcissistic cult leader freaks who abuse their power to manipulate and coerce people into exploitative situations um in a way it's kind of relatable i feel like everyone has been in a situation where they've maybe gone along with something that they then looked back on and thought that maybe wasn't my favorite maybe wouldn't advise someone getting themselves into a situation like that maybe i should have spoken up for myself maybe other people should have been protecting me and then even on a broader scale

so we're talking about the reality TV industry and how it is built on taking the piss out of people instead of keeping them safe there's so much in here I really hope you enjoy it we'd love to hear your thoughts on it

thanks for being here hope you having a nice day see you around hello hello how are you I'm so hungover but I'm good same but I'm good

I'm fine I love it when we're both a bit hungover actually. I mean, it's a nice idea. It is nicer in, the concept is nice than the actual execution. Because I was almost like, we should bring snacks and stuff to the thing. Yeah, which isn't,

it's a lovely idea actually. But we didn't. But we didn't. And I'm actually not hungry now. I'm starting to feel quite sick. Sorry to say. I've actually been feeling fine, but it's just hit me the wave of like,

just basically as soon as we press record, I'm like, oh God, I think I've come down with something. which actually I feel like is probably a good way to feel for what this episode is. Right. Really sick. Like it's a sickening thing we've just had, we're about to go into. Yeah, should we just go straight in? Yeah, I think we could.

It's something we've spoken about before. Like we've touched on this kind of topic. Yeah. It's like concept. But I feel like we've barely skimmed the surface. And I think it's something that isn't talked about enough. And I just think we can get really furious. like really unpacked some things happening here well I just sort of because I haven't watched

the second episode of what we're about to talk about which we were talking about a bit in the last episode but I just went on channel four and just like looked at the image just to like spark some hatred some emotions and the hatred has been sparked like I yeah despise this show and I literally just feel sick to my stomach again and even just so we were basically this kind of came about because we were speaking about the show Virgin Island which regardless of whether you have or haven't seen it. I think the overall conversation of the crux of what we're going to get at is that kind of what we've done an episode

on before, the concept of quote unquote weaponizing wellness. And the manipulation of like kind of pseudo therapy speak and like exploiting vulnerable people under the guise of being an expert in

for example sex, being a sex therapist quote unquote, all of these things just kind of unpacking the ways that people like leverage and manipulate their positions of power in order to abuse people essentially yeah people's pain well when this came up before was when

I was watching Married at First Site and there was this character this man who I believe was his name Brad Brad, I feel like that Brad from maths on maths UK yeah and there was something so it was just so clearly abuse

and the experts on the experts on that show which I do have like mixed thoughts on those experts anyway but they were trying to get through this point of like okay so you are there were points where he would be like I'm going to allow her to talk and things like that and they're like you're using this language that like are you not seeing the manipulation in that but he really just it was not reaching him because he had this kind of it really did it was reminiscent of like a Russell brand kind of like guru approach yes which I mean god I mean the ways that that's all played out it speaks for itself.

It really does. And it is kind of like the ultimate kind of, it's very culty. It's very like someone kind of holier than thou, some sort of righteous narcissist who is enjoying, like really getting a kick out of keeping people beneath them. And like exploiting people and going on this like crazy ego trip. And in like worst cases, for example,

with Russell Brown like literally like, um, like raping people yeah yeah um but it's funny that it keeps popping up for us on reality tv it is weird that it keeps popping up on reality tv why is that i think well there's an essence of reality tv is like these people less like well maybe it's just different now but i would even say from the inception of reality tv the whole concept the whole structure of it was based on exploiting people, individuals just plucked from obscurity to create entertainment out of them. And to just stare up like high emotions, I think.

Yeah. Just fully, you're just fully exploiting them. Like the focus is on them being entertainment. It's not on their well-being or that, you know, them being okay. It's on like, you know, how much can I get out of you? How many, like, clips can I get from here? Which is starting to shift, like, ever so slowly, I think. Like, yeah, but then I think it starts.

wanting to shift into becoming more disguised. Definitely, definitely. But like I think, for example, Love Island, I think is the one that people use as, like, there's definitely been a turning point within that show in particular because of all the suicides attached to that show. There has had to be some level of awareness of like, okay, so what are we putting these people through? And I think you can see with like basic things, like, in the first few seasons, like the

cigarettes just being like passed around like that is a very visible thing the drinks are flowing in those early seasons and now it's like they're barely drinking they're not spoken at all that you can see on camera like there have been these small ways but yeah and then yes it's now just off camera it's off camera or it's almost like you know the producers or the people behind these sorts of the people in these industries are becoming aware of what they can't publicly get away with anymore and having to find new strategies to be able to get the reactions out of people that they want without them coming off as the bad guy. But they're definitely stoking, you know, they're fanning their names for sure.

Also, with Marriott at first sight is the perfect example of their, they bring in people that have had histories of like being abusing partners. They bring that, like, there was a huge case of what in one of the series, like, back of like, thing like three seasons ago. Whereas a guy who's like, I don't even know what it was. He had like charges against him for like domestic abuse. And he was like one of the most loved ones on that show.

And like I mean, Brad, for example, one round of interviews of auditions or whatever would tell you everything you need to know there. They know what they're doing. And as the show is going on, I mean, my issues with the experts on that show in particular are. Yes. Expert.

What the fuck? Like no expert I have ever spoken. to would ever be, would ever, one be on a show like that where you're coupling people that are very vulnerable with known abusers

and then giving like real, sort of relationship advice, it wouldn't fucking fly. So, they're idiots. Because they've not got an interest in like manipulating people for entertainment. Somebody who is actually an expert or actually has like a professional stake,

I think, in any, any sort of psychological, like, well-being. It's not going to be on reality TV. You're not. not really going to be looking you're not seeking to like hurt people to make money yeah which is why i like simon cow because i think he's open about it like i think he's open about the fact that he is making entertainment and that he doesn't really have a vested interest in these people and i think that like it's not good i'm not saying that is a good thing i think it's

terrible and i mean there is so much stuff to say about simon cow but i was listening to an interview with him recently. And actually it's like, he is not pretending to be a good guy. He's going in as an expert in creating stars. So much to be said there for like the way we treat young boys and young girls in this industry, blah, blah, blah, blah. That is all there. But at the same time, I find that so much less insidious than the people, for example,

on Virgin Island that go in calling themselves therapists or the people on Married at First site that they sit there very sincere going, mm, mm, well, people are listening whilst basically just exploiting them. and like pushing them further into these like horrific abusive relationships. 100%. They tow a very fragile line between they basically need to be as evil as possible under the guise of something so like holy and pure and thoughtful and intelligent and wise. And it's really scary.

I think I also just have an absolute hatred of that like patronising tone that they use. Like anyone that that sort of acting. listening like performing active listening going whilst they're only just thinking about oh I'm I'm reacting really well I hate this how do I look here how do I look when I'm going mm hmm hmm you were saying can I say this you were saying the other day about a guy who had his glasses and then he's listening and he's like hmm hmm hmm

glasses in his mouth hmm hmm and it's like you're not in the conversation you're you're thinking I'm chewing my glasses you're thinking God I look good right I honestly can't stand it is when you're talking to someone and then you can tell that they're thinking. Thinking about the town. I'm going to say yeah right now. Yeah. I can't stand it. I am a big, I don't want to acknowledge it because we have a podcast and I know that once you point something out then you're never going to unhear it, but I mm and yeah you a lot. I love being umed and yared. That's what conversation is.

I'm um yeahering you. I'm um yearing you right back and it starts to bug me. Yeah. But I, what I can't stand is someone doing that. It is literally weaponising wellness, kind of performed, um, sort of overly listening, kind of nodding and they've got their eyes closed while you're talking. It's like, you're not listening. You are not listening. You are thinking about how you look whilst you are listening. I hate it. Yeah.

You're thinking about the content. You're thinking about like response. You're so far from what this person is giving you. And I really, it is such, I think specifically with Virgin Island as well. So basically, if you haven't seen Virgin Island, don't worry about it. And don't. watch it. And don't, would be our advice. There's a group of quote unquote virgins. I don't know how many there are. They're taken to this island. Yeah, taken to an island and the whole show, the whole

premise of the show is to work on their, you know, issues and basically a lot of them are like, I don't want to be a virgin anymore. It's a flawed premise right from the start. Like, I think the thing, immediately, from the off, it's so. they've set up this false, it's not real. If the show was actually about working on their intimacy issues, it would be an entirely different show. And I think that's the thing that bugs me. No, completely, it's not about how they feel.

The aim of the show, and they are quite explicit with it, like I feel like they're not even hiding it. The aim of the show is for them to have sex. Well, they've said explicitly, we're going to push their boundaries, push their limits. And I personally think that terminology, around people who, like, a lot of these people have had traumatic experiences or, like, sexual abuse happened to them.

Incredibly low self-esteem. Like, it's a group of vulnerable people that, I mean, inherently putting them on TV is, I think, ethically ambiguous enough or, like, it's something that needs to be taken very seriously. Yeah. Be very, very careful. Like, you'd have to be so thoughtful about how you were doing it if you're making it with love. Even just talking about. made with love. It is made with a passion to push them to their limits so that you can laugh at them

and make loads of money off of them. Yeah. And so they're putting them in situations. There was, I think the situation that really pushed me into a different, it took it from like this show is kind of fucked up to like I actually feel like I'm watching a crime. No, this was like actually sitting down as entertainment with a cup of tea watching this scene, which you're about to describe, play out was one of the weirdest TV experience. I've had in a while of like how I feel like we're also we're in a very immune culture like we're very immune to totally desensitized to everything basically we've seen it all this actually shocked me and like especially with reality of TV that is hard to do but this felt like one of those things like

god that crossed a line and like this show as well when I'm googling around virgin island you like I was having to type in virgin island controversy to to find the bad shit. A lot of stuff was pretty complimentary about this show, to be honest. Just wishy-washy headlines. You won't believe what happens on Virgin Island or whatever. But I think the actual viewer response has been pretty crazy.

So there was a situation where there's a young girl. She's, I think, 23. She's in her early 20s. Am I going to say the thing that you're thinking? I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it is. She, we've since learned on the show that she was,

sexually abused when she was I think seven years old she is identifying as a virgin she identifies as someone with low self-esteem and you can tell it's like someone who's really like vulnerable vulnerable yeah really really vulnerable not someone who needs her boundaries tested I'll put it that way on camera in a room full of strangers whatever they put her in this tent which I have so much to talk about the tent even yeah on an island which I also think it's important to know that they've taken these people out of the UK.

Convenient that they've taken them out of London. Convenient that they've taken them out of the UK. Why would you want to be doing these weird sexual, putting people in these weird uncomfortable, pushing the boundaries of what they're sexually comfortable with? Just make sure that outside of UK law, for example. Also, I think it's the fact that if this was happening in London or a city in England, you would leave. If they were all going back to their homes at night and being like,

God, today they made us do this weird thing. They made us do this, quote, unquote, experiment to test our boundaries. Their parents, because these people are, they're very young. Their parents would be like, we don't want you going back to that. That sounds weird. Or their friends would be like, that's really weird. Like, why is the therapist kissing you? Or worse, why are you, you, you're having sex with the therapist.

Why is that happening? You're being encouraged to have sex with someone you don't know. That is not therapy. The fact that it's on an island, they can't fucking leave. Like, the procedure for them leaving. Like, we have. seen so many, we've seen so many horror movies now. Why do we not know that they will literally be like, I need to leave to the producer. Oh no, you can't. The next boat is in this. It's literally

a nightmare. It's also a classic, classic abuse tactic of completely isolating you and separating you from everything you know and everything you're comfortable with and all your loved ones and all the people who are around you to keep you save, isolate you and then put you in danger. Because when you feel like, yeah, there just, there is nothing about it that makes them to me there's no acknowledgement of like if you're not feeling great you can leave by the way

none of that it's a boat and a flight to get home it's on an island but they don't even to me watching it doesn't feel like they even feel comfortable

to say I need to leave the room no it's really really insane anyway and it's that cult oh sorry yeah no no please it's that cult thing of like if they say they're uncomfortable it's that their boundaries

need to get tested more that's the point you should be feeling uncomfortable so actually I'm going to keep raping you Yeah, that's what it is. It's literally like this perfect loophole that's like, okay, so she was crying during that that moment. So that means we need to push her more.

My God, you're crying. That means like we should keep doing this. We should keep making you really, really distraught and traumatizing you. Anyone that's seen any documentaries about cults will recognize that as well, that behavior of like, oh, that means it's working. That means this means you're about to reach the next level. Like this is so fucking classic, classic language that they're using. And it was a situation basically with this girl who's about 23 years old.

No, no. Yeah. She's, they put her in and I'll actually speak, they take her to a tent, which by the way, I don't know how much we can, like, we'll get into this. But the whole thing, as most of these things are in this kind of weaponizing wellness conversation, is people from the West, people in the kind of, in the UK in this case, co-opting a lot of like ancient kind of like yogic, breath work. It's literally that.

It's really like, and then we're going to put you in a tent and everything's going to be white. And even down to the clothes they're wearing. Exactly. Honestly. Like the whole aesthetic of it. It's really like trying to push and it's really trying to pluck things that they would see as quote unquote exotic to promote this kind of wellness, this purity, this enlightened state. It's very Russell Brand. It's very.

It's chakra's vibes. through and through. It's really like this is, you're pulling at all different sorts of kind of ancient practices and like cultural, um, aesthetics, almost. That aren't yours to claim and then to use them to abuse people with children. Yeah. They take this girl and put her in this tent with a guy who seems to be, I don't know, in his 30s or 40s. He's like a good like over 10 years older than her. He's over 10 years older than her. He's got the classic kind of man bun situation going on. He's Russell Brand. And, you know, under the guys,

under the statement is, we're going to push your boundaries now. They're sat together on a sofa, just the two of them, cameras on them. I am uncomfortable watching it. I'm, to be honest, I'm uncomfortable getting served by a man in the supermarket. I'm not absolutely gagging to get into a one-on-one

situation with a stranger, a man who I've never met, older than me. I'm on TV and being encouraged to push my boundaries. I'm definitely not being encouraged to take care of myself and leave if I need to. And he says, let's just see how you feel if I touch your thigh. If I take my hand, my man hand, I don't know you. Very huge man hand. I put it on your young girl, 23 year old thigh. I'm going to put it on your thigh. And then what if I move it slightly higher? What if I move it slightly higher? How high up on your thigh can I get

before you tell me to stop? And it's, I found that incredibly uncomfortable to watch. Because you can also the body language there. She is so uncomfortable with it. And it's this idea of like, oh, she's so uncomfortable with this man touching her that means that it must be her ideas about sex and her shame about being a virgin that is stopping her. It's like, it might be the fact that she doesn't want this fucking minging man touching her in a tent. It's just so much more nuanced than what they have created.

And it's actually a real shame because this could be a show that could be really interesting. Talking about people's intimacy and the way that your self-esteem can kind of, the relationship between that and your past experiences. and how that might inform what you feel comfortable doing moving forward. And how can we as a society facilitate more healthy relationships and understand our boundaries and understand our desire and what we like? There's so much room for this to be like a legitimately interesting and I think entertaining show.

And that is not what this is. Which is a shame when they want to load it with the language that assumes that it's coming from a place of like intelligence and thoughtfulness. There was the only way they could get it like past that like, There is no way this would get signed off on if you actually were upfront about what the premise is. The premise is, we bring a load of virgins to an island and we have sex with them. That is actually what is going on. That is literally what the show is.

It's not, but because they're calling themselves therapist and there's a bit where, which I actually want to talk about in a bit, like the scene with the sex surrogate. Yeah. That it's, you're using all of these words, but it's like, I think this was you that pointing this out. So that actually is a sex worker that you've hired to do. I was talking to my boy. friend about it and he was like I said oh blah blah blah virgin island like have you heard about it sort of thing and he was like oh yeah I've heard like it's not good I've heard some bad things

about it isn't it like they like they have virgins and then they get like sex workers to have sex with them and I was like no no no they're not sex workers they're sex therapists and therapists no no they're they're they're surrogates and then I was like and he kind of looked at me and I looked at him and I was like shit yes they are sex workers of course they are like yeah yes they are sex workers they're getting paid yeah they're getting paid and they're I also hate the emphasis on like for example with this this 23 year old girl i hate the kind of um pathologizing the idea that her 23 year old existence as a girl on this planet what is wrong with you is that you haven't had sex yet and that's a problem that we're going to fix that's something

that needs to be corrected i hate the idea that sex for these people is like an end goal that is being projected onto them regardless of whether or not that they've come to their own conclusions in their life that they want to have sex that's obviously totally fair enough but i hate the energy of the show coming with the idea that someone's sexual experiences is something that can be right or wrong yeah i hate that and i hate it and it's a box to check this is how there is no this is how there is no a percentage of fucking therapy in them the fact there has been literally no acknowledgement of that that might losing your virginity as this concept might not fix your problems.

There's been no acknowledgement of that. They genuinely treat it as if, oh, we're trying to bring them to that point and then they'll get all this confidence and just be great. And then everything will be perfect. That's not what's going on here. That is actually not what's going on here. And there's only really one of them on the show

that is even like open to it really. Like they're all sort of, well, they're all sort of weirdly, they become more open to it, but there's one guy on the show that like is pretty much saying to the camera, are like I want to have sex like on this trip I want to have sex that's what I'm trying to get out of it the rest of them are just like honestly just trying to get through the fucking day

like it is wild yeah it's really really fucked it's really really fucked extremely and I think a big part of it is the it's so explicit that it's so on the surface you can totally see how much pleasure and satisfaction and like kind of ego these quote unquote therapists again getting from like how much they're enjoying putting these people in uncomfortable situations and like getting them to getting sexually abusing them and being touched by these vulnerable people and the therapists are absolutely quote unquote therapists are absolutely loving it and it they're like to be honest is sick well should we talk specifically about those two women there's like to the two main women who are kind of the quote unquote therapists on the show or whatever and they just can't they

first of all they truly cannot keep their hands of themselves that they're all over these people, strangers, which maybe we should consider the fact that like having a sexual encounter with someone, when you've already got all of these issues and all of, you know, this lack of experience and everything going on in your head, having sex with a stranger on TV or having a sexual encounter with a stranger on TV who's like double your age, whatever, is maybe not the easiest way to work on your issues.

It's maybe not the healthiest way to work on your issues. Even if you've got a healthy attitude towards sex and you feel, feel kind of good about sex. Have you ever occurred to the, it's honestly the scene in the office with Oscar, where Michael starts kissing Oscar. He's like, I don't want to touch you. Has that ever occurred to you? It's like, why weird women, weird sort of, I don't know how old you are, women.

Me as a 23 year old girl, have you ever, has it ever occurred to you that I don't want to kiss you? Because you're like some, you're like a fucking teacher. It's nothing to do with my attitudes towards sex and how uncomfortable I am, blah, blah, blah. It's fact that I find you repellent. I'm just not interested. And me being okay with sex doesn't mean I'm okay with having sex with anybody. But it's with you.

And everybody. Or me being okay with being intimate and having somebody touch my thigh. Doesn't mean I want everybody to touch my thigh. It doesn't mean I want to go into a tent with an old man with a man bun and have him run his hands over my body. Or that must mean that I'm so uncomfortable with sex going to push my boundaries. And be made to feel like the more I allow him to touch me, the better I'm performing and the closer I'm getting. to being good. Yeah. Not okay.

Crazy. And that genuinely is the premise. The premise is bring them to an island and we'll have sex with them. The premise is the more you can do, the, the closer you can get to having sex, the better. That means that you're cured. That means that you're feeling good. But then they are playing with that as well because this is the scene that I wanted to talk about. So there is this one man on the show that he is like, I want to have.

have sex like that is kind of he seems very very keen basically and they bring him into a room with this sex surrogate and a therapist that is sitting there and they're like okay so this sex surrogate um who literally has her tits like none of the women are wearing bras by the way as well it's like this very odd which also love the vibes but like it is almost taunting this man that is like desperate to have sex at this point and then she sits down and says like I'm going to have sex with you but first of all we need to build like a connection together the therapist leaves the room and the sex surrogate and this boy she like lies on the ground and starts stroking his arm and they're stroking the arm for ages and ages and ages and then she's like do you want to switch then he starts stroking her arm

and god knows how long that goes on for because he goes oh i i'm ready for more now bear in mind they've just told him this woman is here to have sex with you he's thinking i'm going to have sex with this woman and i'm ready and i want to do it. And that is what I've been led to think is the aim of this fucking show. You've told me that. He says, I'm over stroking your arm right now. So I want to have sex with you. Or like, I'm ready for more.

And the sex arrow goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I would never have sex with someone the first time. We need to build a connection first. So that's all you're getting today. So is the show about that about trying to get them to have sex? Because I literally never once in my life have laid in bed, like the whole thing was we are trying to replicate what a relationship would be like and build this connection. I never once in my life have laid next to someone stroking their arm for 40 minutes

and then be like, let's call that a day. We've built a connection now and next time we see each other, we might go a bit further than that. They're literally playing with this man. They're getting him all basically turned on. It's a guy that's never had sex before that's really keen to do it feels loads of emotions about it, they're fucking taunting them. They're actually teasing them and like playing with that like horniness from these people and like desperation.

It is so fucking cruel because they didn't tell the, they did not say to him, you're going to stroke her arm today and that's going to be it. They told him, this woman is here to have sex with you. And then the second he said,

I'm ready for it, they said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, that's not how it works. It is so fucking cruel. Also because they purely, they want that. from him. The producer there is looking for that moment of ha, he's now really keen. Got it. Got it. Oh my God. Oh my God. He's like, oh my ha ha ha. That was outrageous of him. He was

like wanting to have sex with her like straight away. Ha ha ha ha ha. You just told him that's what was going to happen. And the whole premise of this show is to do that. But what he's got to do it on this weird, it wouldn't be good for episode one. So we need to get it further down the line. It's so disgusting actually. It's just I really don't like being lied to. And I think I think audiences have kind of changed over time and like even with social media like people are looking for things like authentista. All of the the kind of contracts of what we're looking for has changed over time and you can't just sit down in your chair and watch like an hour of X factor where everything's like they're just puppets on a string sort of thing with. Those were the days. Those were the days and it's entirely different now.

People know when stuff's been set up and like constructed. Yeah. So what the fuck is this show then? Well, so then it becomes difficult when you're lying to your audience. You're saying that this show is about one thing. But the audience isn't stupid and the audience isn't naive to what you're doing. You're really what the show is about. It's not about pushing people's...

The show is not about helping people work on their intimacy issues so that they can have sex if they want to have sex. The show is about exploiting. people's vulnerability for entertainment and putting them in, I think, situations that are really dangerous, yeah, and that could be really harmful and have like long-term impacts on their mental health. Well, definitely will. Deeply traumatising situations where I just think safety is in no way encouraged in the show and I think it's really...

They're sobbing. They're literally crying and saying I feel so uncomfortable. Yeah. And that was in a scene where... They watched one of this therapist, literally, therapy, therapists. Like, you actually are, that is shameful that she's calling herself this. It's so pathetic. Like she, as one of the sort of experiments, she gets, like, herself pushed against this wall and, like, snogged.

And then, like, the guy with the man bun, like, kicks her legs apart and, like, kissing with her arms up against the wall. And all of these people are sitting in the audience crying. Because even just seeing this is so traumatizing. What then makes you think, let's get them intense. and get our fucking dirty hands all over their bodies and see how they cope with that. It's so transparent what it is. It's so fucking obvious.

And Channel 4 should be ashamed. Shame on you. Shame on you. Genuinely, it just feels like a situation that should at least be handled with some care. There is no care. There is no consideration for truly. There really isn't any consideration

for the well-being of the participants on the show. No. And I really think like they would push them to their absolute limits. they're shaking and sobbing and so uncomfortable and it's not in the name of making them feel more secure with intimate experiences it's in the name of entertainment for the british public and it's insulting actually to be saying that that's what we're doing this isn't therapy and the quote none of this no no it's not remotely close to therapy and the what i don't like as well

is the kind of quote unquote therapist they all kind of gang up at the end and egg each other on they're like you know endorsing one another they're like backing each other up they're like yeah And like, I hate the... No, they're kind of being like, oh, you got laid. Because they're all literally fucking the people. They're essentially raping the people. It's literally like... They actually are.

That is actually what is happening on this show. Like, there is absolute, like, lack of... It's like coercive control, essentially. Like, they are completely, completely coerced into these situations. And their boundaries have been so broken down. The power dynamic is absolutely insane. So if you're bringing a group of people into... sexual situations, we need to have a really firm understanding of what consent is here.

And how much can these vulnerable people be consenting to anything? If they're in a room with a full camera team, they've been told by the producers what they can and can't do. They're in a different country on an island. God knows where they are in middle of nowhere. Genuinely. They're with a load of strangers. Like their whole security network is gone.

And they're being actively told, we want to push you to your limits. We want to push your boundaries to make you become intimate with strangers. What part of that is grounded in a safe, healthy understanding of what consent is? What part of that is healthy and safe? No part, surely. For sex experts, you think that might be level one? It's the bare minimum. You think you might be like, okay, first of all, should we work out the consent of this show?

Like, what's the sort of angle we're going for here? They haven't even addressed it once. They haven't spoken about consent once. Not once, which you think in a show about sex might come up. Yeah, you'd hope, wouldn't you? It might come up, but no. Because they know they're fucking abusing them. There's also a lot of under the surface, or like, it's very opaque what they're doing.

Like, I saw a thing where it's like, they get a letter and it's like, put on this robe with as little clothes as possible under it. Essentially be naked under this robe and come into the meeting tent, whatever, come into the tent with everybody. They get into the tent and it's like, right, one by one, you're going to take off your robe and stand naked in front of all these people and the camera crew. This is hell. I'm not doing that. I'm not a virgin and I'm still not doing it. I don't want to do that. This is what's shocking.

They seem to think that there's this divide between like virgins could never and people that have had sex. We can all stand and thrown our robes and in front of these old men take my clothes up. No. Not going to happen. It's got nothing to do with my feelings about sex or anything. It's the fact that you are minging. That is scary. Why are mine a 10?

Why are their cameras? I don't want to do that. Where's my passport? What is happening is? What is happening is it? you, you old woman, get snogged up against a wall all day. It's not okay. I'm sick of the sight of you.

Honestly, it's not okay. Horrific. It's really fucked up. Oh my God, sorry. It's so nuts. That bit where she gets herself pushed against wall and it would, she almost thought that was the sexiest thing alive. Because it's also like. That is, oh my God.

It's these old, like older people. They are pretty old. Coming up with these scenarios that it's like, I think, it's like me being like, you know, this show is going to be, you know, this show is going to be, I'm going to walk into the room and. and you're going to make me a three-course meal and I'm going to sit here with my feet up and I'm going to play sims while you feed me. It's like you can't just come up with these fantasies of scenarios that you want and then make people sit around watching you

in the name of that being this sort of enlightened. That's helpful for them. And if they don't like seeing it, that reflects on their ideas about shame. Not the fact that you, I'm sorry, but you're not very hot. Like, you're not that hot. It's horrible. It's horrible.

It's absolutely crazy. It really is crazy. It just, I hate. People, like an abuse of power, the ways that people find, like, the... It's all in the language, honestly, because I do think that sex surrogate moment when actually that, when you realize that language... It's essential in protecting. It's doing a lot of the lifting. And like, for example, the fact that they are calling themselves therapists, experts, I'd love to see your fucking paperwork.

What certification do you have? like I don't know what board has sort of certified you as a therapist but like if you actually I don't know if you give them any other name if you just called them like the adults because that's genuinely what they feel like it's like the adults and the children and like they are like 22 23 some of like they are adults but they really really are like super vulnerable people so if you just called them like okay the adults are coming it's like call them anything call them really what they fucking are just like men and women it is fucking revolting what they're doing but the language is like doing so much of the lifting and just like disguising what this actually is you're right as well in terms of the language being so important

I saw an article the other day and it was talking about people using the I know you're going to have thoughts on this the term breath play and it was a conversation about how Yeah basically like you know words have meaning and if you mean choking, you need to say choking, using a term like...

Oh my God, I despise it. Yeah. That's what it meant. Yeah, like using a term like quite unquote breath play when what you're actually saying is this person is choking. If you've got a hand around a woman's throat. Language is important in protecting people, in upholding, like, you know, social and science of safety and things like that. It's really important. And it's kind of 1984.

It's like it's important to look into what language you are and are not. being encouraged to use and what is being just being a little bit critical of what is being told of you because it's like yeah if I said I was an expert in X, Y and Z, if I say it enough, you might believe me. Yeah. Also, when we don't know the backstories of these people at all, but I think that I think I've seen a lot, literally like justifying abuse kind of language is why I have kind of a lot of, um, I'm very skeptical around like anything to do with like kink and

like that word being such a broad umbrella term for certain things that when people tell me, oh, I've got a kink for this. I sometimes think, I don't know if that's a kink, actually. I don't think that, I don't really think that's what that is. And it's now become this word that you can basically just describe how you want to hurt women by passing it off as a kink. It's like, if it's to do with causing pain to women, maybe look at that. And maybe it's not a fucking kink.

I don't know. I really am kind of against the whole don't kink shame thing. No, no. I think it's essential. Don't shame you for wanting to hurt women? Yeah. Okay. I think I will.

That's convenient. I think it's actually essential for people to be having a sex at all. We need to be having nuanced conversations about like what this entails and where these ideas might come from and what they might be upholding. I am in no way saying that people shouldn't be able to do certain things. I think there should be a lot of room for people to do whatever. I am saying people should not be able to do certain things. Yeah, I think people shouldn't be able to do certain things.

But I think they should be able to do loads of things and we should be able to understand why, how. Depends what the things are. Exactly. We need to be able to have a conversation about it and a realistic conversation and using phrases like breathplate and then saying don't kink shame really closes off a conversation that I think is essential in keeping people safe and keeping people able to enjoy the things that they want to do safely

and what the implications are of that. and what that looks like, where does it come from? No, completely. Because also that is exactly with this sex surrogate thing. You're sitting there as a quote-unquote therapist saying, now you, the virgin, quote-unquote, is going to have sex with this, quote-unquote, sex surrogate. What is actually happening in that room is you,

the vulnerable person has been brought into a room with an abuser that is now you are going to sleep with a sex worker, somebody that is getting paid to have sex with you. That is actually the sex. Whilst the camera crew film, film it and the British public sit down and watch it with a cup of tea. And laugh at you. And you, yeah, you are, you are an individual, you've been taking it into a room with a camera crew to have sex with a stranger. You've never had sex before. Now you're

on camera. Now what? Like that in itself, surely it's... Insane. I don't think it, we don't need to say much, right? It goes out saying what the issues are here, right? Yeah. This is why I just, I genuinely, um, can't believe it's past a few levels. I don't know. There probably are like test watchers and things like like I cannot believe it's reached this level of like being broadcast and it's still, it's the banner on channel four still now.

Yeah. They're still like pushing it as they're like fucking show at the moment. I think it's been green it for a second season. Did we speak about that? So what is going on? I don't know. We need to get our complaints in guys. No, genuinely.

I think everyone leave a complaint. We've got quite a few messages actually people saying I left a complaint. but I just think like oh I it really does not bode well for the future of entertainment for humankind this is the direction

this is second season this is like there aren't that many I don't know there is not that much outrage people say oh that's kind of weird but it's not like it's not end of the world stuff no nobody cares it's just like a bit of controversy is exactly what a show wants and it's not being taken

seriously at all and like you say with Love Island having all those suicides and like you know well I dread to so many people attach to it like it kind of I don't know what you know love Island continues on and obviously you know it's changed a lot and it's you know it's changed shape influence a factory yeah it's changed so much over the years and whatever and I'm sure I'm sure there is a lot of conversation around what they do to protect the participants however as a participant on reality TV you are a bottom line to these people it's not about protecting your mental health at all. Like, just to be honest, like, yeah, individually, you might have, like, had a nice

conversation with the producer here and there, and there might be someone working on the show that, you know, oh, they were nice and, oh, no, I had a good time or whatever as an individual. But on a macro scale, this system is set up to exploit you and you are being exploited. Even if you're enjoying it, you are being exploited. And it kind of comes back to the breathplay thing and whatever people want to get up to, kinks, quote, unquote. You might be enjoying it and being exploited at the same time. those two things are not separate, that it's not mutually excluded.

Just because you're enjoying something doesn't mean you're not also being exploited. Exactly. Yeah, no, I think that's really important. Also, a big show, which I feel like feeds into this. I don't know, people don't seem to speak about it that fucking critically,

but I think it's the most fucking patronising and offensive show, really, the love on the spectrum kind of situation, which is literally just like, one step away from the show The Undatables, which was super popular like 10 years ago maybe which was just like

autistic people being literally the butt of the joke for like episodes and episodes like trying to find love literally called the Undatables horrific like the most offensive like lowest of the low kind of show

and love on the spectrum I do feel like is slightly different but still it's so fucking patronising and like it's playing into like the desire that we have to watch people that are autistic kind of go on a bad cringy date and we're laughing but we kind of go oh at the same time and we have our favorites and all of this stuff I cannot fucking stand it I think it's so patronising and I think this is kind of a similar thing of bringing in people that are like inexperienced they don't know

what they're doing and we're going to laugh at them wanting to have sex this is also this is kind of really really separate and now I'm just bringing us into it but I think it just gets the ultimate i think my biggest the the crux here for me is like this industry is set up on like laughing at people people being exploited yeah this is really really separate but we didn't i'm actually not even going to name it because i want to keep it separate but we did a thing where it was we were being filmed by somebody else and yeah we went in and it was like you know we followed their thing and we you know we went in as like people you know participants in this oh my god and we had a lot of thoughts coming out of it but i also

thought going into it, having an awareness of, you know, I'm here to be not explicitly. Slightly manipulated. Yeah, it's not about explicitly being a butt of a joke, but it is, you know, being prepared to be ridiculed to make somebody else money and what that means. And I think even in that situation, because kind of going back to what we're saying about, like, if I was that girl in the tent with the guy, his hand is going up my leg and I'm being judged or how far, how much I can let him touch me. How close to your vagina?

I don't know how... I don't know how... I don't know how comfortable I would be saying no. I don't... I don't definitely know how I would feel in that situation. Yeah, if you think about... What you would go along with, when there's a camera on you,

or when there's a person in a position of power. I think people are really naive. Like, someone was saying to me the other day, well, you know, they're adults, so they consented to it, so whatever. Oh my God. And I was like, moron, dumber on.

More on. Like, moron, moron. Do I need to sit here and like, like, I don't have time. I don't have it in me. Like, don't have it in me? Like, don't make me do this. It, people, I think people are really, really naive and they like to think of themselves as very kind of, you know, capable in all sorts of situations. If I was there, I would have done that.

And if I was, I would have saved the world if this happened. If I was on Titanic, I would have held up the boat with my bare hands. Like, people truly, they. I think they have a bit of a god complex when they're looking in on situations that they've never experienced. It's very easy to say, oh, I would have done that so differently. Definitely. Righteous person. But when you're in a situation with a person in position of power or multiple people in positions of power and you are feeling quite powerless,

you don't know what you're going to do. And that's why it's important that other people are there to protect you and that we're actually looking after each other. I know exactly what the fuck you're going to do. You're going to conform because that's what every other person in that situation does. It's like you need to do fucking GCSE psychology. You need to read a fucking book on history, bitch. Yeah. This stuff is so simple.

What do people do? There have been countless studies on this. What do people do when someone in a position of power tells them to do something, they do it? Every fucking time. It doesn't matter if you're the most honorable person ever. No, look at the fucking evidence here. Everyone fucking does it. Which is why it's important for those people that are in positions of power to be,

held to a certain standard and to make sure stuff weird shit like this doesn't just go unnoticed as if it's normal. Exactly. It's not fucking normal. It's weird. No, it's really weird. Really fucking weird. And not justifying it through the...

I do think the whole premise of this episode being like a weaponising wellness thing. That specific aesthetic putting on that like... It is the Russell Brand thing which was exactly the thing. and his kind of charisma that allowed him to get away with it for literally decades.

And that's exactly the same thing. This show has not been, it's gone under the radar in a way because of the language it's using and the aesthetic that it's using. And the appetite for it ultimately. Like the public love to watch. Love it, yeah. You love to watch vulnerable people be put in situations that they're uncomfortable in. Yeah.

But it, we're kind of like, guys, come on, let's not do this now. It's not okay. I think it just gets a little bit too hard to stomach when you're literally watching someone get sexually assaulted on TV for entertainment. That maybe just kind of crosses the line slightly that. It's not right. No fucking thank you. I would love to know people's thoughts on this. Oh my God.

And I think Channel 4 would like to know your thoughts on it too. Yeah, I think they're absolutely gagging for someone. They're gagging to know your thoughts on this. Yeah. Yeah. What a weird one. All right. God.

Okay, yeah, really bizarre one. Yeah. I've liked it though. I think it's been, I don't know, a different, interesting. Yeah, yeah. All right. It's a weird one for a hungover day. I know, yeah.

And I'll be honest, guys, it's Sunday. This week's been very rough for me. So we're lucky we got anything and we got this. So we'll just see how you feel about this. When we thought it was going to be nothing, it's like it's funny to get quite a good, sort of hard-hitting episode. I did find it hard to get my words out at points, but you did amazing thanks i think it did great as well oh thank you yeah i thought that was a good

conversation i think we um me too you know hit the things yeah exactly all right all right if you don't hear from us assume the worst assume the worst