Goes Without Saying - pop culture tropes of desire: but daddy i love him!

Episode Date: April 10, 2022

get in y/n, we're going to fall in love! join the conversation every monday.come and chat in our book club!speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram!you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/zuPH7gyeGp Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay?

So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes That Saying. You're listening to Goes That Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. And this is a really fun episode i think we're talking about how we are sold a certain image of what romance or love is from pop culture we're talking about all the classic tropes we're kind of talking about bridgerton twilight those sorts of vibes um yeah enjoy okay here we go again bloody hell we're back

what a palaver already i know well how are you i'm good how are you i'm good i did just say i did just make an olivander joke and say it feels like just yesterday your mother and father and her buying their first ones yeah but then we had to restart but it does feel like two seconds ago we just sat down and we were on the break and we were recording for the first time I know it feels like that still I think it feels very fresh because I feel like this is the first one since being properly back yeah that now it feels like we're in a conversation with the listener I mean like we're now we're talking to you agreed it's weird because it's like now i've settled into like the new

logo the new space everything and i mean it's feeling good it's definitely feeling overwhelming but good okay good good thank you for everyone who was excited just as excited as we were if not more excited no not that's not possible but everyone who was very excited about us being back about the new look just thanks so much for being here guys i mean it's mental yeah i'm excited for this combo as well like i'm glad we're coming in strong with just like some romance some love some sex let's just chat about it all i'm obsessed we haven't had this conversation in a while i don't think like for as much as you would kind of think that like or just like the stereotype of like two young women doing a podcast you'd kind of think

that like dating and romance and relationships would come up way more than it does but instead we just fixate on like insane things be your best self you can do it guys i feel like because this conversation kind of some i was gonna say as well quick disclaimer this is a podcast for funsies this is not an a-level essay and i feel like sometimes these topics or like these episodes for some reason like i think people think that you can't well you can't cover like we cannot give you a comprehensive conclusion on a topic like this in an hour chat where we're going to be talking about we're talking about fucking olivander for god's sake like come on guys yeah i'm just not interested in me looking for my references and all of this bullshit i'm just trying to have a good time

yeah it's like yeah if you want some essays on romance there are some amazing books on it write a blog okay go and write a blog don't though stop coming for me and my reviews you're horrific this is just for funsies um but it is fun i think having this conversation in a fun way we can keep it light keep it funky keep it fresh oh i'm rather than like doing the whole deep dive into like a really serious take even though it's obviously really serious and complex and nuanced and really interesting and important conversation we all know it by now though i feel like but i'm in i'm in i'm in to go into the fucking are you not just here for a chat i'm in for it all like if it goes down the route of like the heteronormative standards and how we've coded jealousy as

romantic and anger problems are romantic in the way that teenage girls kind of want fucking edward i'm sure we want to go down um enemies to lovers and kind of Shrek and Princess Fiona, I'm in. Not where I thought you were going to go. Yeah, perfect. I'll go down either route. Any road. Any road we're driving down, we're going to have the best time. Perfect.

So how actually are you then? What's going on with you? Well, my period just isn't coming and I'm gutted about it. It's been about a week. Plot twist. Plot twist. It just will not come. Like last week I was like... Oh, pregnancy trope. period just isn't coming and i'm gutted about it it's been about a week plot twist plot twist it is we just will not come like last week i was like oh pregnancy trope shock pregnancy i don't know what it is but it's just i literally last week i was like i think i'm just like on the brink of my

period like i feel just terrible my boobs hurt like i'm just in that kind of awful phase that pre-period premenstrual phase um but i've been in it for about a week and a half now and it's like where is this where's the sucker so i'm just kind of waiting patiently for the little sucker to come out it is kind of classic like woman goes to bed with a man and then rolls out of bed the next morning and is like being sick in the toilet and she she's like, I don't feel right. I'm pregnant. Or like my period's late. It's like, what, like half an hour late?

Like when were you supposed to come on? It's kind of Bella in Breaking Dawn. It is ridiculous. Oh my God. I'm kind of like looking in the mirror like, oh my God. The flat stomach in the mirror. It's too much. My back's breaking.

I'm collapsing. It's too much. It's insane. Well, I's too much it's insane well i hope it comes quickly oh so do i fucking joke honestly and endless pain i've decided that lifetime of endless pain well how are you um i'm quite good i think yeah just you know um i'm quite good i think yeah just you know enjoying just enjoying things yeah yeah making progress getting things done oh stunning oh actually just before we get into things i was just gonna say there is a book club zoom video uploading right now on my laptop that i'm talking to as we speak and i was gonna say maybe we should say this is the best time to be joining book club because you get charged on the first and we're at the beginning of them.

I haven't started this month's book. Have you? No, it arrived yesterday and fucking hell. I love the cover. It's gorgeous. And that is how we judge books. By covers? How else do you judge books?

In the least recommended way. The next term of book club, the next three books, basically we've got a fun summer planned um they look really really fun um and there'll be a post on the instagram and blah blah blah for you to have a look but i'm really excited and thank you to everyone who's been joining and like having fun it's just been so nice to get to chat with everyone yeah if you don't know what our book club is we do a book a month we chat in a zoom we all do we do like a few zoom sessions every month people come along we chat about the book we read along together not in the zoom that'll be boring it's gonna everyone take a chance to read a sentence we just chat i like that i was begging people to read little excerpts in

the last oh no i love it when people read big asmr vibes i love that but it's my it was always my worst fucking nightmare at school reading let's go around the room and we all take a paragraph each it's like okay so everyone else will read their paragraph in the two minute allotted time why is it taking me 17 minutes because i'm going oh my god the the the suddenly there is there's no saliva like where did i'm the sahara so don't worry it's anti-seminar vibes good times you can just come and chat with your well you can just come and sit with your fucking camera off that's absolutely perfect uh-huh but we've chosen really great books for the next three months so come along maybe even romantic books who knows i think they are no they are yeah i'm just like they look like they are from the blurb okay um cool can i ask you a question uh-huh what's your favorite

romantic trope um i don't know off the top of my head but i know that there are certain ideas of things that i don't like yeah as in not like i don't like it because oh my god it's so violent it's like selling the wrong idea of romance and oh God, it's so heteronormative and blah, blah, blah. Not like real criticisms. But it just doesn't get you in the heart. It's not getting me. And not only is it not getting me, it's probably infuriating me. You know when it's like, it's not hitting.

It's so not hitting that it's actually making me sick. Like what? Can I tell you one? A 100%. This is not a book. This is an example, I think think of this to me this character this whole vibe is the epitome of problematic i'm smiling why am i smiling i'm loving it go on on the edge of your seat the epitome of problematic character i'm in tell me yeah right

i'm gonna cast your minds back guys to gossip girl oh why i haven't watched oh no you'll get it you'll get it anyway you'll get it it's a huge pop culture you'll know it yeah this was years ago and actually i haven't checked up on this i haven't since watched this scene or anything um so i could be you know slightly butchering it as i said there's not a factual podcast this is a podcast of lies um it's a podcast of just like general vibes of something rather than like a succinct summary anything concrete yeah um i went into gossip girl being sold the dream of chuck bass ed westwick right this is where you've lost me already i've never i've seen photos of him around tumblr back no i do but i saw photos of him back on tumblr in the day right wasn't a fan even okay well don't even the vibe my punch

but yeah so chuck bass everyone's saying oh my god he's the guy he's the one to watch he's the rising star he's the hottie yeah um kind of hold your hold your hold on to your hats ladies like just trap yourself in yeah you're in for a treat you're in this is going to be an enjoyable ride for you okay so just enjoy it just enjoy it enjoy the chuck bass ride cut to i don't know if it's the first episode but i think it might be he is sexually assaulting cindy lou who taylor momson yeah um who she played jenny he is they're on like a roof or something he's all over her she's like trying to get away and blah blah blah and i thought this guy this guy yeah this guy this is the guy question mark question mark question mark question mark i must have my knickers in a twist here i must i must be mistaken this can't be right yeah and then cut to like he's got seasons on and off with later meester and it

is that guy but the and a lot of people someone actually said a lot of people were saying similar things on the instagram when we posted about this topic about this general vibe someone said the worst trope is the like um quotation arsehole to boyfriend e.g damon salvator is that how you say it etc fucked me up real good they said damon stefan and damon i think that's from what's that called um that show that i always call it not pretty little liars but it's called it is vampire diaries vampire diaries team same vibe i'm sure dylan o'brien's doing something fucked up in that like everyone's just doing fucked up things yeah even pretty little liars it's like the amount that i romanticize ezra ezra ezra ezra is my script he's my fucking screen right um back in the day yeah pedophile

also hanging out in the student union and then you're shocked that a student wants to be like was it the union it was a bar wasn't it a bar like in the in the university town it's like i don't see my tutors from sussex hanging around fucking they're not uni students they're like high school students oh oh yeah of course of course they're at school yeah she's like 16 oh that's so fun and then how he goes out saying i want to be a writer and he's like god you are just not like other girls and I internalised I will become

Aria from this moment I will live as Aria because I just loved it and a baby name boom happened I think everyone else was like yeah

not only will I become Aria my daughter will become Aria and my other son will become Ezra I used to think Ezra was the most

stunning name the most stunning man i was just ezra ezra fits love him is that a cute girl's name ezra i actually don't want to discuss baby names anymore i remember once i told you the only baby name that i liked for a boy and you said it was chubby and now i can't use it no i love that name i always think that's really cute because i've always thought that because i've always thought i'd quite love a girl called juliette and then i thought don't you don't say it okay we'll let the cut no that's fine i'm not using it anyway unless everyone else tells him it's a cute name but anyway anyway we'll cut it if you don't want it i think it's cute but i think you compared it to like a david

i love that thing exactly that you think of romeo beckham but i do i don't i think of like dead dead shakespearean boy yeah you think i think of something somehow even worse no no i think it's so stunning and i was thinking then if i have a little girl called juliet so stunning are we gonna we're gonna ship them we're gonna start the problem and they're called romeo and juliet but i like juliet with a tte so it isn't actually the shakespeare yeah that's what i was thinking yeah all right it would be cute anyway well that is my my issue is essentially a rapist who's made out to be hot which for some reason is the crux if you will of pop culture it really is because i just couldn't believe i get like i get character development i get someone having an art

yeah but i don't want them to be introduced to someone from a rapist it's like he had an amazing development from criminal to boyfriend to like someone not that bad it's like jesus christ it's terrible development needs to start from we don't really know them maybe he's rude to a waiter and then we see why he's had this troubled past but it's not he raped someone you know what else is interesting about that is that i feel like most people i remember having conversations with my friends about it being like wait chuck like guys i'm confused you were selling me chuck yeah but i've just watched him attack taylor momson and they were like oh my god i don't remember that i don't remember that and i feel like

we are a bit i mean there's a new the gossip girl reboot is out i feel like we're enough past gossip girl i mean it is iconic but i feel like it mostly now well not maybe not mostly but it really lives in people's memories but i feel like what people mostly remember is that jenny taylor momson was really fucking annoying not that chuck sexually assaulted her how funny is that that that's what sticks in our mind is like god that bitch get off my face like annoying girl and we're so quick to forget that chuck is i mean guys don't make me say it god maybe i need to watch this because also what was dan's vibe because i remember i was always sold the idea of dan i think people that watched it would

be like you would like dan you would like dan and now i know he's joe from you well they tried to make him out yeah they tried to make him out like he's like somehow living on the poverty line but he's living in a huge like penthouse in new york city with taylor momson that's his sister i think anyway stunning family yeah cindy lou who and then the dad ends up oh look well let's not get into it you can just watch it for yourselves i'd love to know what the dad did though you know sebastian stan's in gossip girl is he yeah he confuses me sebastian stan i have always heard so much from wing about sebastian stan sebastian stan he's the man he's the man i see a video that pops up on my instagram and i was like who is this guy hanging out with fucking marianne from normal people who is this fucking guy he does

not look he doesn't catch my eye i'll say um underneath his name in the caption says marianne whatever the actress's name is and i see the name sebastian stan and i hear him talking i look at his face and i think this can't be the guy this cannot be she literally sent me voice notes being like this man is so repulsive there's something biologically repulsing me away from him i don't know which i don't mind i don't i'm quite glad it's we're not fighting for him but at the same time i mean you were repulsed i've never heard anything like it i i think you know how people discuss like pheromones of like oh yeah so my pheromones just match his or like oh like there's something about his smell that just it just isn't vibing

with me i think his face is pheromonally bad with my vibe i don't know that's fine is repellent to me i want to watch the movie monday with you i think that's him in his prime in what is him in monday monday that film i agree to watch the trailer also i think also licking that woman's face all i've ever seen from him is this fresh film that's come out him i tonya you saw him in he's in i tonya jeff yeah we've had this conversation many a time oh sorry it's fine it's fine but i i don't want to bore you with something that is already living in the back of your brain also i don't think i really remember anything from My Tonya. It was one of my favourite films.

I know. I did like it. But I feel like I don't remember anything from it. Okay. So I laughed at it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals. Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson, and this is a field guide to gay animals. A

podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer, and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on spotify apple or wherever you get your podcasts a cast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com okay somebody said um somebody i'm just gonna quickly say this one the firm someone said the feminist in me screams but the hopeless romantic is obsessed and i'm not even gonna go into that i just love it isn't that us all just like why do i like it but i'm annoyed that i like it or just like annoying but also good like sometimes maybe good sometimes maybe shit okay this person said in so many romance books the women are not developed characters at all yeah and we did speak about this we've

probably spoken about this a hundred times but kind of like how bella is blood goth is i'm not bella goth i do this every time also bella goth she's it's because bella goth is the iconic bella to me i'm such a fucking idiot sorry bella swan i meant bella swan i think i did that in book club yeah yeah i think you did that where i did that yeah but it's just because i said i do this all the time and they're probably listening thinking i've never heard you do that before um yeah bella swan is just like blank slate for you to project onto blah blah but i was gonna ask you about your favorite universe the harry potter universe i don't know which one you were gonna do that i was like it's gonna be katniss i'm gonna be like she's not a blank slate she's a feminist icon your favorite universe star wars um hermione is obviously a pretty well developed character and i feel like that

makes a really interesting vehicle for people to explore the draco and hermione romance and i also know that you love draco and i would just not with hermione but not with hermione with you i would just love to invite you to talk about that for a sec I accept the invitation I will be in attendance at the conversation you're cordially invited what would you like me to say about it Draco I just want you to speak from the heart so I would say one of the best I'll speak from the heart one of the best romantic tropes we've already mentioned the classic couple Romeo ando and juliet is i would say forbidden love like the idea of you're on opposing teams also would be called like a rival to lovers

in the enemy to others category but like forbidden you're on your gryffindor you're oh i'm in you cannot be together like there are the laws of your world mean that you are not compatible but however however there's something going on that breaks the forces of your world apart and that's what i love that is that's my my trope like i do think it crosses in with enemies to lovers which is just fucking great yeah like that forbidden like your family forbid it oh wow your house forbid it wow okay suddenly it's heating up in here but yeah i fucking you know what you're reminding me of when you're saying that um your house will disappear your name will disappear all memory of you will disappear and then she walks away what is that yeah it's santa no spoilers but it's one of santa's best moments yeah so i got it yeah

your house will disappear it's so good yeah so you're quite loving the rival vibe with draco i love rivals but like i don't love kind of rivals with no stakes like you're kind of both competing for a thing and you fall in love no i need it to be like your worlds will not allow this love like you will break apart everything else in your life what about when the stakes are low i'll give you an example yeah because i think this is the hottest thing ever when jim and pam oh mama mia do you know do you know what i'm gonna say i just the names jim and pam sends shivers down the spine jim and pam from the office is a bit where i think it's something about the printer like she wants new chairs and he wants the printer

or something yeah and then the episode is called surplus there we go and at the end he comes up to her and he's like he's like give me four of these copies or whatever and she's like what the fuck and he's like just kidding and then they kiss and he's like i want five or something i don't know that guys you have to watch it but anyway i think it's the hottest they've ever been really apart from when before they're together yeah but i think that's um kind of rivals because they're on opposing teams it's a bit of a competition vibes but also they're also the hottest when it's like forbidden i guess she's with somebody else but it's it's friend it's classic friends to lovers i don't which i would say is one of my worst um tropes because I just almost feel like,

where are the stakes? Right. Like there's not much angst. Like the only thing you're risking is the friendship and the friendship is a lie anyway because it's just romance. Like Jim and Pam aren't actually friends the whole time. They just find each other. So true.

But I fucking love, I think their best is literally that moment where he drives back from he's like interviewing in new in like i think it's new york with karen and he just drives back in he says like pam are you free later and she's just like smiling at the camera and he leaves and she's like it just ends and she goes what was the question oh she's got tears in her eyes that was a perfect perfect performance from her acting yeah perfect performance um but you quite like something um that you're not allowed do you remember once in i think it's a really old episode we were talking about how i mean just generally i guess people grow up with shame around sex, maybe specifically young women grow up with a lot of shame around sex. Maybe even with religion, you grow up around with a lot of fucking hell.

You grow up with a lot of shame around sex and something being forbidden plays into that. I remember studying at uni. I probably said this on the podcast before because i just think it's a perfect point from someone else not from me but i can't credit them because it was like a uni paper and i don't know their name but they were talking about um like the idea of rape fantasies trigger warning should have said trigger warning before remember we well we well we had the whole oh episode called rape is from that exact thing yeah um but it's like that's what i was basically this is the hole i was pushing you into yeah it's

just highly common with like um with like religious communities apparently according to this academic essay that you would have like rape fantasies because it would allow you to feel sexual desire without owning it because it's something that's happening to you rather than something you're desiring not saying that people want to get raped it's saying that rape fantasies as a thing yes are more common we're all smart here which i think is absolutely fascinating because it it just takes away all of your um i didn't really feel any desire it was rape it wasn't sex and also the idea that sex is something or wanting sex is something that you could be blamed for basically like women just aren't allowed to ever admit to wanting sex yeah

yeah but yet also there's such a huge industry selling women's sex in a very specific way well it's the male gaze way it's you're allowed to want sex if it is perfectly fit for men really yeah but also in in the really there's a real like women's industry of like 50 shades of gray and like even twilight like do you know what i mean but that's like even the love that like the so the romantic or sexual books that are for women or like even if you take it to the level of like the porn that is made for women and we've slagged off a female porn website in the past but i think we're both not the biggest fans of porn as a concept uh even the execution of porn is pretty poor um but like ones that are

made specifically for women whenever i have like looked and been like intrigued like the day that when me and wing sat down on the sofa and watched porn for i think it was like six like one minute it was 10 a.m the next minute it's 4 p.m how does that work because we were so intrigued and this was like a female empowering porn website not intrigued we were determined to find some good content determined to find something that was empowering every single why when this is labeled as a women's empowering porn website am i just seeing women get choked fake orgasms basically get fucking beaten up by this gigantic kind of dick that's just like slamming into their vagina they haven't even like looked at a clit in this whole time i mean where is the empowerment here i'm so sorry but i'm not

seeing any and then if you trace that, if you go back, back, back to like the smaller scales of porn that women are offered, i.e. Fifty Shades of Grey, even smaller, Twilight. I think there's one sex scene in that where she says, she says, how are we ever going to get anything done? And I just think it's so disgusting.

And then he's like, Alice and um jasper didn't or like rosalie and emma didn't leave the house for like months it's like oh you're making me sick mate what the hell still um but it's like it's still this weird kind of sex where it's like like it's all about like the male validation of this like it's it's so violent like oh i'm just i don't see much empowerment there in the options that women are given anyway i think even just the industry more so to me it's not even there's an issue with the content yeah i don't have an issue with choking for actually quite love it but i think it's more so even about who really is getting exploited there who is making at least financial gain there i doubt it's the woman in

fact i know for a fact it's not the woman it will be the man behind the camera and beyond that it's going to be the man running the organization which it is as, these organisations are run by men. Yeah. And beyond that, even when they're run by women. I think they just have a problem with it all. Like, the optics of it all. They're run by, like, real, like, gender-hating women.

Yeah, do you know what I mean? You know when it's like, pick me, pick me. It's like, alright, you don't have to go and run a porn company just because you wanted men to like you. Jesus. It's a very convoluted way

of saying I'm not like other girls. Yeah. By hurting all the other girls. But it's so, it's too, convoluted way of saying i'm not like other girls yeah by hurting all the other girls but it's so uh it's too i can't be bothered it's so complex it's so complex i just find it fascinating because it's like oh i don't know no go on no i don't even want to go there i can't be bothered let's go in let's be bothered for a second for a second of our lives let's just be bothered recording i can't be bothered i was gonna say For a second of our lives, let's just be bothered. What a ridiculous thing to say mid-recording. I can't be bothered. I was going to say about the... I was going to say about the Pamela Anderson.

Pam and Tommy. Pam and Tommy. I haven't seen it. Classic Sebastian Stan content. It is Sebastian Stan. Not interested. I know. Well, so, you know, there's no, like,

clear public consent from her. And really, like, from the people who have made the show including lily james and sebastian stan but also like the actual creators of the show very much um saying it's from the side of like justifying her story like bringing light to her and showing her in a very compassionate light and basically doing it for not for pamela like they're doing something for her but as in they're doing it in favor of her they're showing all the ways that she's been exploited and blah blah but the criticism of that is that without her consent this show just becomes another public exploitation of pamela anderson yeah so i can't look we can't

get into it but it is what it is something to think about hey I've never seen it so I have no thoughts but I mean sounds complex interesting she did a lot like she was really a ridicule doesn't even cut it but like she knew that she was being made out she knew that her public persona was this dumb fucking bitch who can't do anything and she would continue to work as in like continue to go on like late night shows yeah and whatever to get to talk about things that she was passionate about i.e like animal rights she made that exchange consciously went through this transaction of like being taken the piss out of and knowing that she's going to be

ridiculed just so she could use her platform for things that she cared about which i think is obviously insanely amazing really cool yeah really cool really cool so anyway stunning okay i love this point this person said i feel like the male romantic interests brackets mostly don't care enough or care a creepy amount and what an amazing point more often than not the creepy amount but do you think but then it's also they don't care well this is why i just said to sephi we're gonna get into dating because i feel like we set a precedent in pop culture where you have to i know we've spoken about this before but you have to appear so nonchalant that it's like you're basically a zombie on a date with someone like i've never seen people try to look like they could

care less yeah but it's like you've spent six weeks talking to someone every day is that not a bit strange to not care like would that not be weird if you didn't care for example um i just think it's a really interesting like spectrum of they either don't care like they don't give a shit about you which is somehow romantic or they're stalking you yeah and i think that's is that was that point saying that it was in real life or in fiction um um i think they're saying yeah uh i think they're saying in fiction and like in pop culture i feel like the the male romantic interests don't care enough or care a creepy amount and i'm saying agreed and it's also reflected then in real life yeah because i think in fiction it would be more

common that it's like they care a creepy too much amount it's almost like it's all rooted in possession and what's labeled as like the perfect romance would be one almost where he is kind of courting the woman into this aim of like owning her possessing her and then it's all about kind of jealousy her honor and things like that um and then in real life what's reflected is a woman is in the dating that i see around the fucking internet in my life i see it around is that more often than not women are so fucking i guess the word i hate to say it is fucking desperate for male validation is that they pretend that they are also unbothered that they have to act like this kind of laid-back woman that is like the cool girl being courted by um equally desperate but kind of obsessed men but what actually is happening is

then both people pretend not to give a shit and it's this weird kind of stagnant stunted thing where people are like what do you want oh i i'm just i don't really know what i want i'm just kind of seeing where things go it's like no you you don't you really like them you've been seeing them for like three fucking months say what you want also i was thinking this the other day even if you don't if you don't want something more that doesn't mean that the only alternative is being treated like shit those aren't the two options it's not exactly oh we have no ties and and blah blah but i'm also having terrible sex and being treated like shit i'm being taken for a mug or i've told him i want a commitment those aren't the two do you know i mean you can get you can have something casual not at all um fun for you as well or like you can have something casual that

isn't making you doubt yourself i think that's the fucking goal like that's it also in our book club i hate that we're talking about fucking book club again but there was an amazing well i actually love it because it's great but you should join we've said enough there was a quote in what the book that we read last month the book was trick mirror and there was a quote that said that um it was said all of this stuff but one the most happy group oh yeah in society is married men and the least happy group is married women that says it all that kind of says it's quite a lot in a statement alarming that it's like actually this answer of being kind of in a relationship being married or partnered up isn't actually going to eat like um it's not the only route it's not going to equate in an equal level of happiness the man will benefit from that far more from the women in

heteronormative relationships goes without saying generally um and we know about the orgasm gap blah blah blah we know it but there's also just like the fucking love gap that it's like you are not benefiting from this love as much as men are you're just not so i find it fascinating so i think there's definitely you know what i was oh no no go no no go go you said i find it fascinating there's so i just think there's definitely kind of room to there's more than enough the whole fucking spectrum is that world in between being single and getting exactly what you want the whole the whole fucking aim of this life i think is to have as much fun have a great life be true to yourself experience amazing things why is it about getting this like as soon as i'm working getting somebody else's ideas

somebody else's ideas of relationships are not necessarily yours i find it mental i actually find it um sad incredibly incredibly sad that like the majority of women have been sold this lie that they are working towards persuading a man like acting laid back enough that a man might bless them with their their attention no fuck that you can have that thing that was like men oh i'm so laid back i'm not like other girls i'm so laid back um and it's like you're essentially saying i don't i will not hold you accountable um i was gonna say i was gonna say when you were talking about in fiction men are like really possessive i was thinking of edward and i was thinking about how at the beginning he does both

like he goes from doesn't give a shit about her he's like oh my god stinky i'm not sitting next to you like fuck this bitch she's like get this stinky bitch away from me what the fuck he goes on him and he gags it's so rude it's so rude and they both want to like switch classrooms how embarrassing is that also like new school that's the worst bit of that the worst bit of that is when she walks into like the principal's office and he's like let me change classes it's like that's embarrassing it's so bad um but he does both he goes from like i can't even i'm not even gonna talk to you he goes from literally i'm not even gonna bother to talk to this girl which is somehow romantic because it's so it's oh my god it's so passionate and it's so heightened and oh my goodness it's

everything yeah so much angst to literally yeah owning this. You're my own personal brand. And turning her into a mutant. He's crazy. It's insane. It's so funny. I think the reason Twilight comes up so much in not only our conversation, but these conversations about our generation's understanding of romance. It's too iconic. It's just because it is the epitome. It's also got the, the trope, the love triangle which is yeah the fucking trope be all

and end all it's just the best it is the best because also it immediately places interestingly it places the woman in a position of choice which i feel like is rare fucking rare rare rare but i love that because it's like even though bella swan is this blank slate it's kind of done on purpose that she's got no personality because it's like she immediately just becomes you and you get to this have this choice team edward team jacob who would you choose but also you are just an object of desire yeah yeah it frames the whole thing through a lens of jealousy there's always a boy being jealous of you of the other one possessive and then also you can see that in fucking hunger games like the team peter team gail thing

and i fucking love that one but i am so so so so so far team peter because of the angst because it's that like forced um forced like proximity almost in the games screaming so hot so fun um but i hate gail because it's it's just such a jealous vibe and it's like i just think that is great that is empty miley all the way lost my point and just there was cringe you prefer a baker vibe but basically it that was my point that it roots romance it teaches young girls that the hottest thing a boy could be is like jealous and angry so true so true because it because um it's like he can't move for desire for you it's like the his only personality trait is being

obsessed with you i mean it doesn't get better than that but that's so it's so ridiculous because it like then then you get it's so ridiculous you get this terrifying man that it's like what does it actually look like for someone to be obsessed with you it looks fucking scary it's not fucking romantic if someone no it's not fun if you've actually got the equivalent of ed cutesy just girly things who is oh or any any of the fucking he wants he wants to suck your blood he's terrifying but it's like the equivalent in real life of that is the guy that doesn't speak to you in class then all of a sudden switches and is obsessed with you won't leave you alone you're walking home alone you've got a creepy situation but you can fucking handle it as you've handled it your whole life suddenly a guy comes out in his fucking like maserati fucking get in

bella it's like wait what's going on put your seat belt on so what's going on so bad you know what i find interesting about you joe from you is that oh god we're back to gossip girl um is pen is it pen badgley maybe i don't know pen badgley well this guy pen anyway i've heard him speak in a few interviews saying things like people asking about like oh how do you feel about like your character being like sexualized like like how do you feel about your character being desired by like yeah like by these young women predominantly and he's like i i don't know like i've seen a few things about it where he basically i don't i want to, like, make him come across in this. As if, like, he's going to send a cease and desist.

But, like... He's a wing presented me an unfair lie. I don't want to, like... I don't want to present him wrong. I don't want to be unfair. But I got the gist from my tiny knowledge that he was kind of saying, like, yeah, it's really wrong and like weird that these

like these people need help basically if they find me attractive they need help blah blah and almost like in a slightly condescending exactly and i almost felt a bit like come on pen you're a smart man like you know what you you do know your participation you know what this is about you do it's a bigger conversation to be a creep they would have cast it's not about like um women have poor sense of judgment and women are so hysterical when they find someone attractive and women are do you know i mean i'm not saying he was saying that but you get what i mean i'm gonna cast pen in a fucking bad light no don't don't because i'm i'm really minimizing

i'm being very reductive that was definitely not his full view and i'm sure if he was sat here god would have an amazing chat i'd love to pen down anytime come on in the door i think it's not about all of these things like i feel like with 50 shades of gray with twilight whatever it's the it's always the audience of young women that is ridiculed even with one direction it's the audience of young women that are somehow in the wrong not the men in suits in fucking business meetings that set up this media for them it was it was designed with it's by design that these young women are obsessed or whatever with this thing it's by design yeah it's not their fucking fault but also it's really fucking simple it's really simple in the thing of you've created this show where a fit guy is acting

like the perfect boyfriend in order to manipulate and trick this woman i'm talking kind of about the first season but i guess the second as well until the twist um but it's all it's like he's performing oh i've got you fucking croissants in the morning here we go i'm going on this amazing what he's saying all the right things he works in a bookshop it's this stunning guy and then it's like why do people fancy him he's a psychopath it's like no but the whole point of the show is that he's manipulating this woman by performing perfection to her like it's also very very female gazey the way we see him until it's twisted round coincidence that he's obsessed with books exactly like he's been reading the exact women written men he's been studying these men that

have been written by women yeah that's a great point thank you yeah but i think it's the it's the woman's idea of the perfect man is this guy that works in a bookshop it's just like yeah that's why people fucking fancy him and then of course there's this adder's layer that he's a psychopath and then it's like but it's just like yeah of course we do that's the whole point of the fucking show pen read the script interesting hey also like when someone is like a bit nice or like a bit different it's like he was written by a woman it's like harry styles is just a human being like the rest of us i'm trying to remember i like this one someone said show more positive breakups without all the revenge body stuff and i think breakups are

something that is so not represented in like a healthy way represented full stop but not represented in like any real real way yeah i mean revenge body as a concept i mean you can just gauge what we think on that already as just what the fuck the saddest fucking thing that women are told to do it's kind of interesting how we again i feel like it comes with the shame around like admitting that you care yeah or admitting that you've been invested in something i feel like even though we don't talk enough about any breakups we don't talk enough about like friendshipups, we don't talk enough about, like, friendship breakups. But I feel like there's less shame

in talking about friendship breakups sometimes because you can admit that you care a little bit more freely because you're expected to care about a friend that you've been friends with for a long time or whatever. You've had a really close relationship with someone. We can somehow understand how that works but when a relationship breaks down a romantic relationship breaks down or just a sexual relationship breaks down you're supposed to be i'm clicking my fingers here but you're supposed to be like snap and over it by next week and it's

all about winning and losing as well it's about who is doing better there's a comparison who's upgrading who's downgraded yeah who's kind of living their life who's moved on about who is doing better there's a comparison who's upgrading who's downgraded yeah who's kind of living their life who's moved on quicker who is wallowing longer it's all about and that's the concept of a revenge body it's wanting to like beat the other person at the breakup it's like you've heard that they are now seeing someone new and you now need to have a fucking six-pack one up it's just like this is first of all it's not gonna fucking work they're not gonna cool for everyone they're not gonna feel fucking shit about it's the dumbest idea anyway but two it's the fucking saddest idea it's like i mean they

might i don't i just don't think it works as a thing like it like it is a as a concept of like it's fucking no i awful patriarchal but it's almost like god we're dumb if we think people give a shit about that kind of thing it's like you post a picture on instagram of you you've been in the gym all day like trying to get this body it's like if anything it just gives a sad message i think is well exactly even if they're even if they are sad when they see you and they they think that you're thriving it is just ultimately more sad for you if your life now revolves around a concept of revenge rather than just getting whatever you wanted you weren't previously getting in the relationship you're

you're sad because something broke down but it's also just the whole thing of rejection which is why it's difficult with anything like a friendship literally a job ending any of these things it's like the ending of anything is sad but again with the romantic thing you're supposed to be so nonchalant about the whole thing throughout that you when have you ever been honest throughout the whole time you're only supposed to be honest if it's this reciprocated love that's like i can only show my true feelings if i know that they said they loved me as well if and at best they said it first like they said it first it's like what is this why can't you just say when you like someone when you love someone when

you don't love someone anymore when you feel it it doesn't have to be reciprocated it doesn't have to be um matched oh well he's um got over me quicker than i have doesn't fucking matter he's not in your life anymore doesn't it literally makes so how do you know you don't literally how do you know you don't have a clue you don't know and it's all a performance it's all a performance of it's performance of like chilled chillness it's like oh i don't give a shit it's i'm a chill girl i'm chill you're not sorry you're not no one is what is that i don't want any kind of love or relationship is that not sad oh you're so chilled that you've just spent like a year with

someone and now you suddenly don't is that not sad you're so chill that you don't give a shit about any relationship that you have okay so you're sad then i'm not hearing chilled i'm hearing like miserable and lonely where's the passion you're so chilled that if you and your friends were to not be friends tomorrow you just wouldn't care and you'd be perfect you're not chilled you're i want anything that i like to be loved with love and exactly and also love and like true relationships are about investment of your emotions that just is what it is like you you have to be vulnerable there is vulnerability in losing and winning if we're going to use that terminology in relationships because where are the stakes the only way to get something real exactly the only way to get something real is to actually

give something real to risk something and if you're too scared to give anything real because you're too embarrassed you will get nothing real back and this is why for example if we bring it back to just literally romance tropes for some reason friends to lovers seems to have no fucking stakes whereas enemies to lovers has all the fucking stakes in the world because you're risking something you're putting yourself out there you're risking it all for this like to be present in how you feel it's powerful i think the worst thing you can do is be dishonest with yourself about how you're feeling and that's what i see more than anything in like modern dating is people just like literally lying through their teeth in order to seem like oh i don't really give a shit i don't really care

like i'm just chill i'm just chill you're not it's fine but also people lying through their teeth in the sense of like if the crux of our society is the disney classic like love story life it's not a coincidence that we see so many people feeling like the amount of messages we get where people are like, I'm 20 and I've never had a boyfriend. Is there something wrong with me? I'm blah, blah, blah. I've never had a boyfriend. I've never done this.

Like, I've never kissed somebody. Like, is there something wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. There's everything right with you. There's everything right with you. There's something wrong with society.

But what you are or are not doing it's fine just living by like a weird false construct of what happiness or success looks like in relationships across anything in your life is never going to work the slipper does not fit you sorry it's literally a lie it's a lie that's been constructed over years and years this weird like stop trying to fit this square narrative of what life should be over your circle of a life like this glass slipper is doesn't fit it's not right also it's gendered it is so gendered as if as fucking if boys are there well the groups of boys like is it so if we put it the parallel if as fucking if there's a a podcast owned by two guys our age that are getting dms from um boys being like i haven't had a girlfriend i'm 20 no they're not fucking getting no but they are they are saying, I've never had sex with a girl.

Definitely, because it's all about sex. There's an emphasis on sexuality. Because power comes from... Owning women through sex. And the power for women comes from being desired by men. But I don't think it's necessarily by being desired by women. It's by almost conquering women. Like, I've fucked this many girls.

Whereas for a girl society is telling women and girls that the biggest honor you can have is be chosen by one you need to be validated but that man feels incredibly jealous of all the other men that fancy you but you have given yourself fully to one man but for a man it's just like let's rack up the numbers well let's just have some fun basically oh my god so true so true just basically men are allowed to have fun lives women are told to have boring lives yeah and everyone is told to have an empty life that is all a performance of what you can show or put into a box for other people

soundbite maybe that's a real we'll see we've been looking for reels cool all right well i hope everyone's feeling furious i feel i hope everyone's feeling empowered i think if if i've got one message to say about like dating to like young people or any people that are fucking listening it's just like take the pressure out out of it like take the time limits out of it take all of the fucking how you should be performing societally in dating and romance in that arena right now and just actually think what do you want to do because otherwise if you don't do what you want to do you're gonna wake up fucking married as a 55 year old woman and think i never had any fucking fun in this life a half life just a cursed life just a

cursed life but who would choose such a life you have have have to listen to what you want or you're gonna fucking regret it you're gonna fucking regret it so just literally do whatever you consensually want to do in this arena feel no pressure because there is none agreed all right perfect um great well i hope you all have a good day what a podcast oh my god no i do hope everyone has a good day i hope everyone's just feeling like they just had like quite a fun invigorating chat yeah i feel invigorated yeah i feel invigorated i feel like i could just talk um about romance all day. I'd love to just do more. I know, it's like...

Just more of this. It's just a pit, isn't it? It's like a bottomless pit of shit. It's just layered. I think the thing is, it's just so layered. It's like there's so much in there. Yeah, literally, dig more away. Oh, fuck, I think we've reached the bottom.

No, there's more, there's more, there's more. Endless. Yeah. So fun. All right, well, let's go then. Cool, hope everyone more, there's more, there's more. Endless. Yeah. So fun. All right, well, let's go then. Cool. Hope everyone's having a great day. Let's get out of here.

Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you for being here. If you don't hear from us. Assume the worst.