Goes Without Saying - Privilege Blindness A Reality Check In This Economy

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on privilege, class, nepo babies, and the myth of 'raw talent'. ✷see more ✷ youtube@sephyandwing ✷ instagram @sephyandwing ✷ tiktok @sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk

Goes without saying. You just need to go without saying with Seffi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Seffi. This feels like kind of a big one that you've stumbled upon. So I hope you're ready. We're kind of going in on different layers of like privilege and like I would take particularly class in England. And the way that that kind of infiltrates your sense of self, your interpersonal relationships, your career and your future and the things that are. opportunities that are open or not so open to you. We're coming with a lot of love, so I hope that is received. I hope this episode finds you well.

Thanks for being here. Enjoy. Hello. Hello. God, okay, so we have riled up right now. We've had like two and a half hours? Yeah, we started at... quarter past 12, probably.

12, and now it's 245. there were some things that needed to be oh my god we've you know we've gone up and down and yeah we've gone in there's a certain someone in my life that needed a good talking to between me and seffi genuinely like we have been we've been through the ringer right now we've yeah we've just really gone in and something and like maybe you'll hear about it in like a certain way but I'm saying this because the crux of this is if I seem in any way pissed off

angry in this conversation it's probably it's just something someone was saying last week it's not important and you know it's not about this although this is slightly this is an angering topic

and I think that's why we were like should we do this topic because it was like okay we will get riled up and I feel like I've just been I feel pretty few making too to be honest like I'm sorry no no no in a great way but like you know when you're getting

riled. I was saying like it's like sometimes in life there are things that are just this has been happening under the surface and I it's just recently like this week has kind of brought it to to the forefront of my mind and I've been made aware that this is a bigger issue than I thought it was and there's someone that needs to be dealt with in my vicinity eliminated honestly yeah so look it's fine But that's where I'm coming from. So, like, my heart's a bit kind of shaky. So if I seem, like, weird, that's why.

Yeah. Nothing to hurry about. So it goes for me for some reason. Doesn't involve me. I just really dragged you into it. I mean, you've got your, you've got your input too. There are parallels as well. Like, also, I feel like this sort of thing, it's a specific trigger for us.

Like, we are specifically, I don't know. Most, I feel like a lot of people could just have this topic kind of go, it would just be interesting, whatever. For us, it's kind of becomes over two-hour conversation. Well, for us, it's like that's how, you know, oh, look, let's not, let's not. Let's truly not. Let's not. Like, we probably will have a conversation at some point about all of this, but like,

yeah, let's not right now. My main thing would just be like, guys, I need you to stand out for yourselves. Yeah. As long as you're doing that, then I'm happy. Okay? Yeah. That's all that needs to be said. Yeah.

All right. Well, how are you anyway? And validate your feelings. Totally. Totally. Because otherwise. No one else as well. yeah i think okay look this is now a separate issue but

my last thing is i think i'm realizing certain areas of my life where i've been really walked all over and i do not want to be walked all over anymore therefore no that won't be happening anymore okay and also no one is going to give you that space to feel sad or be emotional or like be angry no one's going to be like now's the moment you get to do that so it's like you might as well just fucking go do it when you want to do it there's no medals given to those who took the most shit and didn't, you know, cause a silent.

Yeah, right? There's not. There's also, and as someone that is a kicker and a screamer, like, I don't stay silent. I start crying and... Yeah, good for you. No, no, no, like, there's no medals given there either. Well... It's actually more embarrassing, it's horrific.

But I do think, if I'm doing anything, I'm letting it be known that I'm upset. I think it's really important. No, yeah. I'm not even necessarily recommending. recommending it but I do think give yourself some moment to do that whether it's oh you have to like in the presence of others or not it doesn't need to be a big scene no and that's something I should learn but it does need to be done well we've been saying this we've been saying this for weeks and I've even been saying it in my waking life like with real people I've been saying to them really

weirdly I'm actually awful to have around in a conversation because I start coming out with things like this I'm saying things like when you bury things down they don't just go away they end up spilling out like if there's some sort of resentment or something to be this is a crazy way to start an episode but like if there's some shit going on and you think you can bury it and brush it under the rug it doesn't go away it sits ready to explode at any moment there's no but this is also our big thing about communication like we I don't think we genuinely believe in like um holding resentment or like sort of it will kill you away or I hold resentment I will die.

You can't hold it, but it's unhold. It's deadly. It's like trying to catch smoke with your bare hands. You can't hold resentment. It will come out. It will kill you. Yeah, it will kill you and everyone around you. It's a poisonous gas.

Literally get it out. Okay, so. Hi, welcome to the episode. How are you? I did think actually a couple of days ago I was like, next time I'll record, I want to record on being walked all over. Yeah. And like having boundaries and stuff. So maybe we can come back around on that at some point. Yeah. I think we always do. You know, it's going to come out one way or another. Right.

Okay. So thoughts on this topic. Anything's first of all coming to mind for you. I would love to know. I mean, I feel like this has been a conversation for so long now. Like the last few years like Nepo babies, nepo babies. But when I like right now in the cultural moment like almost like the celebrity landscape of the moment. of 2025. Yeah. I do feel like every single famous person they're multiplying. Like it's,

that wasn't always the way. Like we are in a particular moment at the moment. A particular moment in the moment. What the fuck? Right now, there is like a fixation on celebrities' children and there seems to be this time for like celebrities' children to like really like forge a path.

But it is kind of alarming how many, like for example one I was talking about earlier it's like Gracie Abrams oh that's J.J. Abrams's daughter's like wait what why is every Sabrina Carpenter herb auntie played fucking Bart Simpson sorry why is every single fucking person like even not even just the like the Miley Cyrus's of the world every single one of them has someone and why do we think that is let's explore because i remember us having a conversation at uni where we were talking about the concept of being good at something having a talent and how much of that talent is just an innate thing within you you're born naturally gifted at something and it's in you and you

it's your personality or something about you is good at that thing or how much is it that you were exposed to certain people doing certain things and you were told certain things about yourself and you were given certain opportunities to explore it's that it's that's that's that tell i don't think we can be having a conversation about nepo babies thinking about raw talent raw talent that is literally not what is happening here there is raw talent all over the fucking world. Why is it the people that have the access and are encouraged? Like, we were talking about this about Will Smith's kids. Oh yeah. They put an instrument in every room or whatever. And it's like, so, and I do think, Willow Smith's album is good. Her new album is good. There

is, she, there's talent there. But the talent is there because it's been nurtured. I think that's the thing is, um, I'm not taking away the fact that, uh, uh, uh, Gracie A, Abrams is you know has a lovely voice and can write lovely song I would never take that way but I don't know if there is such thing as raw talent or like self-made I think there's raw talent is abundant but let's not pretend you have any more of it you probably are really talented at something that you've never even tried because you were never exposed to it and da-da-da-da-da you 100% are I also I really think that like the thing that gets me most And it is, sounds quite simple and quite obvious, is the lack of connection or awareness between like, I'm not saying you haven't put in hours.

I'm not saying that you don't have a good skill. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be where you are, in fact. What I am saying very gently and very quietly just to myself and my fellow folk here. I'm just stating the obvious. Is that it would be really, really nice. and I actually think like fundamentally important to like maintain harmony in society, I invite you to reflect on the fact that you, yes, have these skills and all of these things and you also had lots of compounding opportunities and conversations and exposure to certain things

that led you down this path. Yeah. And that your maybe financial situation or your family, the things that were required of you, colour of your skin, for example. Those were not things that were holding you back. Those were not things that made your life harder. That's all. Because there is a freedom to try that comes with privilege.

If that doesn't go without saying to everybody here, I don't know what we're doing. But it doesn't go without saying. Do you know when it doesn't? I think everyone can acknowledge that in the abstract. But when you, it is the thing. of like when you're being confronted with it, like when you're actually having that conversation with someone,

people are very quick to come up with examples of like, why that wasn't really the case for them or like, oh, no, no, but I did this and I did this because there have been many, many, many, a conversation with people in our lives without being specific at all, where there have been very clear examples of like things being just like given to people, just like an opportunity being given to someone and when the point is raised of like

okay so that was maybe because your dad is their best friend or whatever it's like no but not no no no no definitely not it's because of this and this and this and it's like there is no um willingness like not like you they cannot accept it it's actually um to be honest like so hysterically laughable something we've been saying actually we've just been saying it

like today even. Yeah. I was actually saying it in relation to, uh, someone of being like, you, you say, like,

for example, I could say, um, Seffy is so important to me. Seffi is really important to me. I really, you know, her happiness is important to me and I want to protect her,

make sure she's, you know, well and I don't want anything, you know, and I would say it freely. Of course. Of course. that saying I would make that no back but then if there was a situation where I'll say for example

something comes up where we've had this conversation before so you're probably going to say it's not a good example but like say a crush Marion Pippet say if you're a hulking walks in say someone you know something comes up where okay now my position of having to prove yeah my care and my love for Cephy has come up can I still do it then even when it's hard it's easy to to walk around and say oh i'm happy to do i accept that i love set or blah blah blah or i see that i am a privileged person if something came up if you were actually in a challenging and uncomfortable situation where you had to are you going to do anything sacrifice something of your own well-being or you know give up something give up one of your privileges or like make yourself more uncomfortable

to put your money where your mouth is literally and like back the thing that you've just said so i was going to say if someone really desirable that you had a crush or like big you know kieran cold whatever blah blah blah someone that like say a situation came up where it was like oh suddenly it's a bit hard for me to show my love for seffi and da da da da da da da would i still be able to do it in those moments where it's challenging and uncomfortable can you still back it up not just being like in the vague sense oh i disagree with something something i just you know i disagree with um you know i disagree with um you know, certain kids not having X, Y, and Z, or certain kids having X, Y and Z, do you? In a tangible sense, what do you do to prove that? Because I don't think you do disagree with it. I think your whole

life is upholding that status. 100%. No, genuinely, like, also, this is how it, um, is impossible for this not to be an angry episode, because it is so frustrating. And I know that, I don't know. What do you know? Go on. I think you know something good in there. I don't know anything good. I don't know anything good. Like, oh. I think it's, I think, maybe you disagree. I think that the more children who grow up in situations where their parents have put an instrument in every room, for example, talking about Willow Smith.

The better. The better. The more children that are growing up in privileged households around the arts and being encouraged to explore things, the better. I want that for you. But, but I want you to want that for others as well. well and to be able to recognize that your lived experience does not reflect the experience of the majority of other human beings you are the minority you fucking cunt like but you somehow think that you have raw talent excuse me like I am so sorry but that is if we're operating

on that level of being like um I'm sorry to use Gracie Abrams it's just the only one I can think of right now because I found it out the other day I literally don't know any of her music queen I know she's with Paul Meskel queen I wish the best of her her yeah But we can't be talking about raw talent here when what we're talking about actually is a really famous director's daughter. Like, we are not talking about that when there is raw talent. Undiscovered, literally undiscovered raw talent. I want you, I want you to be the daughter of a director. I want everyone to be the daughter of a director or whatever your parent wanted to do.

But that's not. We're not in that world. We're not in that world, unfortunately. We're so far from that world. it's just becomes significantly wrong when we're talking about we're undermining talent when actually what we're talking about is someone that

was fed this from an early age and it's also a singer is an amazing thing to be but it's also the thing that like if you ask kids around a school what do you want to be they're all going to say like singer, actress They're going to say YouTuber.

Influencer, yeah, they're all going to say things like this. Like, they're not, it's kind of, you're not JJ Abrams' daughter. Everybody wants to express themselves and be silly and, like, live a life surrounded by art. Most people, like, in a pure childish form. Oh, going to say that. Like, most people have some sort of, like, creative pull or, like, a talent that they don't get to explore. Is why Nepo Babies are not. coming nurses and doctors and like really hard fucking jobs.

They're not becoming that. Be real with me for a fucking second. Does this nepo baby work down the council? Is your nepo baby in social care right now? No. And is the problem because they have no talent. No. That is not the problem here.

I think you have lovely, lovely music and I benefit from it very much. Thanks for sharing. It's the really, really just like capitalistic. horrific conflation between conflation is that the word between between talent and access yeah i also there's a uh this is a familiar name to everybody jamie lang um yeah i saw something i don't know how this came to me i don't know if i like read it in a thing or like i actually heard him say it i'm not sure it was something about him being like he was like oh we started kind of kitchens like he's one of my top nepo's but just in terms of like i really like

i'm sure he's great like i've watched him but no i'm not sure he's great kissed our cheeks unless we forgot about that he's kissed these cheeks guys and those over there look i mean whatever but like i hate to see like a sad nepo baby moaning i mean it doesn't go down well he was saying that you know so basically if you don't if you're not from the uk or like whatever jamy lang is like reality TV guy and he's like from one of the richest like families in London or whatever. I think. Or was it called his late? Is it?

I think so. I've often heard him say people think I'm the heir to McVitties and I'm not. It's like, all right. No. Also, but like that's exactly the kind of distinction. Those kind of distinctions are really important to people that are born into wealth of like, I'm not the air. My cousin is the air.

And it's like you think that holds more weight than it does. Like you are sitting around a dinner. dinner table at the end of the day with the founder of McVitties or whatever. Like you, or with the air to McVitties, like those, those distinctions are not important to anyone, but the person that's trying to justify why they have the thing that they have.

It's totally mental. So the thing that was kind of getting me with what he was saying was basically like, when we, so he's got a brand now candy kittens, which I love. Like, feel positively about them, they're good,

they're, you know, whatever. I had a little sweet. Oh, I think you had it too, the candy kittens. I don't know.

I don't like sweets though so I gave it away. I mean it's fine. It's a brand, whatever. Anyway, when he was starting it, I think he started it with somebody else, him and someone, or whatever. He basically said, you know, like people think I started it with loads of money behind me and da-da-da-da. And I didn't. You know, we had like three grand saved from something

and that was what we had to do it. And, you know, it was a big risk and da-da-da-da. Here's my response, Jamie. Friendly. like hey here's my friendly response genuinely friendly like whatever the fact that you can start something and know that if it fails you'll be okay is the end is the beginning and end and entire crux of the conversation yeah the fact that you have the freedom to try is privilege in itself and that is it if your thing doesn't work you have the room in

your life to do something and know that if it doesn't work your dad or your uncle or your auntie who has this, this and this or your life will be okay. Did you know, did you ever think that for the majority of people, they do not get to try, they do not get to fail. They do not have a backing of anyone around them who says, hey, if you find yourself in some hot water, I've got you, I can cover you for X-M-M-I. These people have rent to pay. These people have mouths to feed. You've got three grand. Why don't we invest that into a sweet company?

That is not what it's going on. Come on. It also, it completely, that sort of conversation really undermines everything because it's like, you cannot be like, oh, this only started with three grand, as if it's an option for everyone that, oh, have you, oh, we only did this off three grand. No, you didn't. You did it off the. Your entire education.

every conversation you've ever had with your family. All of your contacts. All of your personality. All of the access. The fact that you are from a dynasty of people that make food, you know, you are from a dynasty of brands. It's a bit weird. You are trading off the name that you've built off the reality show that you're on

that is based around heirs or fortunes in London. A wealth. A private school. Like, wealthy upper, like 1% people. And I'm saying this in a friendly way, by the way. The three brand. whether that is what you invested into the beginning or not, that number, again, once again,

is only relevant to the person that is trying to justify why they have worked hard. That does not mean anything. Because that's not really what you started with. You started with maybe, yeah, three grand is the money that you put in. But there's all this invisible shit that you cannot see and will not acknowledge that is actually the reason that the company is a success.

And I love you, Jamie Lang. But that is not true. If Jamie Lang had said to his family at 15 or 18 years old, I'm going to be a nurse, I'm going to be a dentist or whatever, or I'm going to be a teacher in a primary school, or on the other side, if he had said, oh, I think I'm going to start a brand. Which one would have been more weird and unusual for his family to wrap their heads around? Hello? Come on. Hello. Anybody home?

This is, I think, the frustrating conversation. about nepo babies and i think this is actually like it's just privilege in general as i feel like nepo babies even the language of it is like it's kind of cute it's cute and i also think it allows a lot of people to wash themselves out of it and be like well they're not talking about me then it's like maybe i'm talking about you i might be do you think i'm talking about you i don't know what do you think anyway i think that yeah no it's so true because also nepo baby has the thing of like are they famous yeah is your dad famous no okay i'm not talking about you it's like i am though possibly you're not safe and i'm talking with love i want everyone

on to be like you? I don't. I don't think I like because also that is not um I want everyone to be surrounded by like an encouraging loving welcoming like full of access full of resource full of opportunities. But that can't exist. We live in a capitalist world. Exactly. It does not exist.

And also private schools and like wealth to the level that we're talking about cannot exist without there being a spectrum like not everyone like for example for the that I hate to do this to you, Jamie, I don't know, but the school that you went to, Jamie Lang, couldn't have existed without the schools that most people went to. No, but I don't need you to go to a certain school. I just need you

to have the conversations that you grew up with and the access and the do you know what I mean? Just the resources that these kids have been allowed. Just like creative options. Yes. It would be nice. Education, sort of a lovely welcoming, nice, encouraging

environment. God, it winds me out. The option for everyone to start a sweet company if they want to or be a singer would be amazing. And also just to be like, recognise that, like, who you are at your core is important. I know now I start to get ridiculous and everyone gets upset with me. Maybe. Who? I don't know. But, like, I know I'm now talking big, big language.

But this is why I think this conversation is powerful because there are a lot of people with a lot of privilege who, this is really horrible. But they genuinely don't see other people. the majority of people on the planet, they actually don't see us as human. Like, they think that their life and the way that they've lived is the norm. That's what everyone has had within reason.

And the people who haven't had that, like, oh, they should have, like, worked harder maybe. Oh, my God, I have such a weird thing to say. Oh, I don't know if I... Oh, please. Okay, so... Oh, please. Let me be clever with it.

You're the most clever. I know you can do this. because it's very much an issue that's happening currently now okay I believe in you possibly go on so there was so there was someone that I don't know this person but I've heard through the grapevine that so this person is um Oxford or Cambridge educated like from a rich family congratulations they are definitely upper class person okay they were at a party recently and so they started hosting these parties and selectively picking people that would be invited to the parties I never was at one of these I would also just like to add good and thought they were

weird from the start okay we're picking people to go to these parties that's very weird fucking weird as fuck mental um and god it's hard to say I got a voice note from someone the other day that had been at one of these parties and they were like god these parties have kicked off the person this like upper class man went on a rant about how there are two types of working class no don't upset me no no oh this is going to be upsetting and there were people at the party like I don't know no one's happened because there were lots of working class people in the room lots of upper class well there are a few upper class people and then the middle class people you know they're abundant as well.

There was... Oh, this is going to really upset me. Yeah, there are two types of... I'm on my period, so I might get upset. Oh, no, I think you might. People have been very upset about this. Okay. There are two types of working class people.

I don't know if I can let you finish. There are. No, this is like actually like disgusting. And like, yeah, there are the strivers and there are the wallowers. Yeah. Moment of fucking silence for this person. Freak. um and how like dead sorry literally well also i don't think it's looking good for this person right now

um and people were like oh my like i don't know there was some big confrontation blah blah blah but it was and then they refused to apologize because they when they were confronted like you need to apologize to these people that were really upset blah blah blah blah um he was like i'm not going to apologize because i that's what i think like psycho On game day, pain can hit hard and fast, like the headache you get when your favorite team and your fantasy team both lose. When pain comes to play, call an audible with Advil plus acetaminopin and get long-lasting dual-action pain relief for up to eight hours. Tackle your tough pain two ways with Advil plus acetaminephim. Advil, the official pain relief partner of the NFL.

Ask your pharmacist at this product's rate for you. Always read and follow the label. Yeah. But I do think that's the belief of kind of what you were saying? of like that is the belief of like... It is the belief. And that's my problem again with the Jamie Lang. Oh, it only cost me three grand to do it.

So you think that people can strive their way out of this. Of course. They think it's about grit. They think it's about like a willingness to work. Like RIP Margaret Thatcher, like you're done for. Get the fuck out. I'm going to kill you. Dead.

You're dead to me. Yeah. I'm sorry, but like... It's kind of crazy. I'm losing my mind and my will be. to live genuinely. I am and like I am finding it a bit harder and I know like we spoke even like last year remember when I was saying what one was it we went to see Benjamin Button maybe we like got invited to the theatre there was like there was like a weird phase in our lives where like we went to see like

three things in the theatre in the space of like two weeks or something I know what it was honestly like great we left one of them at the interval we were really and that was insulting and you know what that was a nepo baby that was it was her dad wrote the musical her dad had read the musical her dad had written the thing with her and thought it was the greatest thing ever. So they put on a fucking musical in the West End to entertain your untalented fucking cunty child. No, it was...

I'm getting... I'm getting... I'm coming off bad. Let's take a moment. Because that was... It was insulting. To anyone who's ever... genuinely cared about anything they've ever made before in their lives. It's an insult, actually. Also, we had just seen

a play next to normal that we was a smash hit to us. We absolutely loved it and then to go and see this other play that was literally like babysitting this girl's, this guy's kid and watching her perform songs at a talent show it was actually insulting

I think I just have a bit of a weird thing and that's fair it is fair isn't it yes it is fair but also people are crazy like for example this comment that this guy made was made very freely

very publicly and it is hugely offensive. Like it is literally like, God, you haven't even, you don't care that this is offensive almost. Like you, you truly believe that and like your whole life is like, well, also, you have to believe it because if you challenge your, your belief for a second, you haven't done anything. You realize that actually maybe you're not as talented or deserving as you need to

believe that you are. But what's wrong with that? What is wrong with that? No, they can't hack it. They can't hack for a second. But if, if, for example, I was given that I will say it. Look, if I grew up in Gracie Abrams' house,

I'd be a fucking superstar. Are you joking me? Imagine. I'm sorry. I'd literally be king of the world. Like, are you joking? A little bit of talent, a little bit of intelligent.

Do you know how far I could take that if I actually grew up with some fucking resources? And by the way, I'm not like the most hard done by child in the country. Like, it is insane. The fucking naivety that these people have of like the reality of what people actually grow up in and like the situations they're actually living in.

But this is why I don't think it's bad to acknowledge. Like realistically what your whole identity is built on you being this talented person. Of course you're not. Of course you are not. Like I don't actually understand and it only comes from it being validated to them a hundred times over and it just is testament to how strong that like bubble is of like people. I'm so sorry Gracie you have been just dragged right into this. I'd rather just stick with.

Let's do Jamie, I think. Jamie just feels like almost like we're too close to him, almost. Like, I'm, I feel like we're going to meet him and have to justify this. But Gracie's just like this young woman and like, she's actually making art as well, which I think like, Jamie's just like a famous, no offence, Jamie. Like, I think you're all right, but you can take the heat, I think. I've enjoyed a lot of your, a lot of maiden Chelsea over there.

And also, you've made some questionable decisions on that. Too right. But also, the story. star of my favorite show. So, you know, um, truly the star. Yeah, yeah, I know. Start of my lifelong favorite show. So like, I'm so sorry that I, I'm saying this, but it is also testament to how strong that bubble is, the fact that you feel open to say things like, we only invested three grand. It's like, that obviously isn't true because anyone that invest three grand into a fucking sweet company with no, um, contacts and no platform and no, and that is also one of the huge things of

like anyone can grow a platform it's like you fucking not fucking true like this is insane the level of like justification that needs to go on to tell them that they are talented what's so wrong with not being talented no they can't handle you're not of course you're not of course what all of these famous people's kids are raw have raw exceptional talent what are the chances it's not the fact that they were given a guitar age one and also their fucking dad plays. Like obviously it's so basic. It is like, I think that's the thing that I'm finding hard. It seems, and that's why I think as well,

the conversation around Nepo Babies is actually pushing people further into the realm of being like that guy and saying like there are two types of working class people or whatever. Like I think the conversation around Nepo Babies is pushing people. into being more defensive. Yeah. At least from my small perspective, I am, my only thing is like, I think it's really important to just think about the ways

that privilege compounds to a child throughout their life. And like, if you were hedging your bets, just in terms of like stats and possibility, like, how would you predict this kid to turn out? If they grew up, like, watching their dad play guitar, both their parents can read and write and they like they live in a city or they frequently travel to a city

and the parents have like reasonably good jobs and you know their their friends parents are in like creative fields maybe or they're in like high positions in their job that to me tells me a lot about how that person might turn out how that child might turn out

that's all it's not crime but also this stuff is we can accept it for so many other things of like okay so if you are born into a Christian community you can look at that child age when it's born and be like this kid will probably grow into a Christian you can we can see it with all these other ways but for some reason that one because it undenies quote unquote talent it's denied but it's like of course if you are born into um a family a creative family where also where money is

literally no object and you can just do whatever you want. Hmm. Of course you're going to do that. Or even if money is a little bit of an object but like you're still encouraged to like have creative skills. that is hugely different to like the majority of working class people who have never never sat down with an instrument ever like I don't know if my parents have ever actually sat down in front of an instrument that's fine there's nothing to cry about it's not a big deal but it definitely informs the way that you grow up that's all you would be mental literally mental to deny it I think like it's not really um I'm surprised that this has to be a conversation like has your parent ever held a paintbrush

or like, has your parent ever read a book? That's going to inform the way that you live your life. Also, like, your parents are your best guess at what your life will be, especially as a child. Like, that is your best, it's the role model, really. And, like, that's the access you have. It's your early life. And whoever you're surrounded by is your introduction to the world.

Like, yeah. And that is so, that is, like, that. that becomes intrinsic to who you are. There's no getting away from that. You can turn out completely different or whatever. And this is why that time when we were getting invited to the theatre a lot was really weird from him

because I became, and I still feel very like, where, I don't know where I sit, I don't sit anywhere anymore. And that's a weird feeling. And I remember I read something and I can't remember who wrote it or where it was. So sorry about that,

but it was quite cool. It was this woman who, It was like a black woman from London and she was saying that it's kind of the Jamie Lang thing that you were just saying about like the only people that care about justifying that they're not the heir to McVitties actually are the people who actually like have a lot of things

that you know is like whatever. The only thing the person that think that there's a difference between being the cousin and the son or the nephew it's all the fucking saying to everyone else. In my opinion or like the things that I've seen is the people who grow up being like well I had to pay for my own car or well I had to I never had my X, Y and Z bought for me

are actually the people who have been given or like who have some level of privilege because growing up working class, you are doing everything you can to assimilate to people and like make it seem like you're not working class. Like I never in a million years would have been like, oh, I got the highest fucking loan from my uni and I like, da-da-da-da-da, I had to pay for my own.

You keep that shit quiet because you're ashamed or like it's not okay. to um it's only cool when you're fucking rich it's only cool as far it's something to fucking brag about when you're like a fucking 19 year old super privileged girl at uni saying gap y'a gap year dress head to toe in urban outfiters and pretending that you're skin you're not but if the actually skin people are keeping it zipped that i'm skin can't tell you that i'm skin that actually means something to people like do you know what i mean Like definitely.

The people who are really vocal about the things that they have had to do, in my opinion, are the people who have had a lot that they haven't had to do. And that is okay, by the way, especially when I'm talking about, like, young people who are figuring things out. I don't expect, like, a 19 year old girl, for example, who's had a lot of privilege to, like, have much awareness about what other people's lives might have looked like. But I do think if you're at a point now where you are in a position where you can start thinking about like actual human beings that have had different experiences to you like i think it's important to actually humanize people who come from working class backgrounds because i genuinely i think to a lot of

people that are actually not seen as human like it's like a fable or a myth and we were saying before we started recording that like i was like i'm really glad that in my childhood i was like naive to this sort of something like i thought that like like I didn't I didn't think people that were that well off and like privilege actually existed it was like oh they're like that's like the queen and like I thought I was rich I literally were like I thought I was fucking loaded I thought I was like queen of the castle I'm well up my dad was a bus driver and I thought I was fucking rich as fuck

like I literally was like oh I'm really well off here genuinely like no I genuinely thought like yeah we're really rich it's not and then I fucking started seeing like like I went to uni basically and I saw that yeah I saw some things it's kind of crazy because also I'm like middle class like I'm sort of um somewhere in the middle but like also um

I'm on that on the on the spectrum of every of sort of that like and yeah I genuinely thought like yeah okay so I'm like rich I think like I'm probably like I don't know from a small town we were like like not the poorest, not the rich. I was like, yeah, we're kind of like pretty rich. And then, yeah, when you go and meet actually rich people, you think, oh no, I'm like scum, I didn't realize I'm like actual scum.

Did not know. But also that's the thing is like a lot of people who have a lot of privilege, like went to a private school, their parents, maybe went to a private school, like they come from a long line of privilege. Amongst then that circle, amongst the circle of privileged people, they think that they're like I know a lot of people who have a lot of like don't you think there are a lot of people that they think they are different from the other no no that's the whole thing really but that's kind of exactly the Jamie Lang exactly three grand conversation that is

somebody that is literally one percent of um of society saying how they're not they're not like other founders of companies and they actually did it off their own bat like no you didn't actually they really didn't like and it's actually super super offensive to be even suggesting that i feel like i'm coming off like a moony whiny angry little rat bag and maybe i am a moaning winy angry little rat bag but because i basically i don't want you to think that if you're like really privileged i'm annoyed at you for being privileged i'm not like i'm actually just happy for you like i think cool but that's not the conversation and also i don't think anyone I also think how dare anyone say that.

Okay. How dare. Well, zip it. You're about to say that. I don't think anyone could say, oh, it's, I think it is annoying. Like, I really don't think it's the responsibility of the working class to not be annoyed at the upper class. People. Like, I think there is something so insidious about that.

I'm not, I'm actually not annoyed at anyone. until they say are we all had the same shot or whatever then I think just give me a little bit of something here and I do also think I do think generally like I keep thinking like

saying dehumanised feels like really huge but that is but it literally is like these people outside of some people I really do think that some people outside like people outside of their group they genuinely don't they don't give a shit they actually don't register it as human

and like they think it's like something that they need to like that they can use for like the social clout of being like oh yeah I'm skin or whatever or like to be cool about it or what is it when you're having to denounce the things that are actually you

like to be like oh I um oh I don't know I don't want to get too specific actually but like for example that guy being like there are two types of working class people it's like have you ever spoken to a working class person have you ever met any like because to me this sounds like you're in your fucking weird bubble talking about um class as if you have any idea of anything outside of your own world what do you know about striving what do you

know about what do you know what do you know oh look you don't know anything you're talking shit at your weird party like it the whole thing is a symptom of it anyway but also the fact that you're that close to the party is like Jesus. No, it's crazy. You're one degree away from somewhere like that. Oh my God. Well, I also think, okay, so I'm doing creative writing course. This is where this is just at the scene.

Yeah. So it's. Universities and these sorts of institutions are where these things play out. That level of wealth as well was at uni. Like you just get access to that. And yeah, I'm doing a master's in creative writing right now. there are some people that are upper, of an

upper class. There's also, I do think there is a really nice mix on my course, like definitely. But these are the people that started hosting these parties. They're slightly older and went to Oxford and Cambridge and they am I going to say the word?

If you do my course, I'm so sorry, they call it a salon. And it says a lot of stuff about it at the moment. Like within the course, there's people that it's been really divisive. But this is like, a lot of spaces

are not set up for working class people. Like, it's... Most, most. It just really winds me up. And also, like, when you're saying about, like, you have to dis... It's almost like, you have to, like, Jamie Lang, for example,

has to discredit his entire lineage because he needs to claim the talent or the success for himself. When actually, like, you know, your grandfathers before you, have done a lot for you, me it's important to recognize that. But is that bad. And also like, no, go on.

No, no, go. Well, like, for example, when you talk about talent and skill on stuff, you famously said, I'm a good storyteller. One of the first things you ever said about me. And I... Literally number one thing. I said she looks like Selena Gomez and good storyteller. And she's a good storyteller, which is so weird, but like love.

Yeah. And I agree, I do look like Selena Gomez and I am a good storyteller. But I... Also, I think I'm... a good storyteller because my nan would like sing and read to me well not read to me but she would make up so she would talk to me she would gossip with me like i was a fucking 60 year old woman with her from my my early i grew up literally like with her every day who i am is like 98% her like there's kind of no getting away from that and that is how life works in my opinion obviously

i have like really pushed myself i have i have i have really pushed myself i have i have have truly pushed myself beyond certain things. Like, even going to uni, that's like, you know, no one in my family was going to uni, that in itself is like, okay, you've done something a bit out of the norm there. I, obviously, it's nature and nurture. I really do believe that. But let's not deny the percentage of nurture. But like, come on.

Sorry, but, or like, it's bit fucking convenient that all the rich people have so much talent then. That's just not how it works. It's just not how it works. It's absolutely mental. Do you know what? I'm rich people with loads of access to all the contacts and stuff. They're really good at making snacks. They're really good at snack companies.

That's weird. So weird. They're just got natural talent for like business. Like seriously. Be fucking real for a second. Let's, yeah, literally like get serious. I don't know. I don't know.

It's really infuriating. I don't like it because I think I don't like the person that I am in these conversations, I think it makes me feel like I'm playing the role of like poor per girl who's like, hey, like, I'm hungry and like, you know, I'm good at stuff too, da-da-da. But then I also feel the thing of like in my position that I'm in now, I wonder, well, I know, like even for me, like if I was like 10 years old in my life, I would have seen myself at this age and been like oh i don't relate to that like she's like way above it well like she's like in a different space so i also feel like i don't i can't speak for my social group do you know

what i mean yeah and if that makes sense god if it makes sense you please tell me well i don't think it's do you get what i mean well completely but i think the thing is that like it's not about not liking the person that you are in this conversation because actually like for example like poor girl that's angry or whatever it's like how I see it is like someone that just sees it like it fucking is like I don't I actually do not understand the like or just like this system gets propped up

by people being staying quiet and not feeling like they can speak on it like that is how this shit gets propped up like it's all relying on people not wanting to seem bitter or jealous or any of these things that is exactly the narrative that like the upper class has of, oh, with the working class, like, yeah, they, they just wallow in it. They're just wallowing.

No, literally, no, that is not what's going on. Let's be fucking real. It's so basic. And like, I don't, I think there is anger behind it because it is just like, so fucking frustrating. I think that's the thing as well is it's probably, it's frustrating as well when things that you have known as it just goes without saying, you're into, you just know these things to feel like, and this goes across.

like I guess all kind of social um like kind of any sort of marginalised any sort of social issue where the marginalised or whatever feels like they need to spoon feed the oppressor and say by the way this is how I'm human that is quite frustrating definitely it's actually not it goes beyond like like it's wrong and it's once again the responsibility like you like this is like this is has been like the thing behind so many like, like movements towards equality. Like, and it's why people always talk about like,

it's not your job to educate people on your experience. But no one else is doing it. It's kind of, no, exactly, but it's not your responsibility, but it's like the frustrating reality of the people at the top do not want to acknowledge these issues because it obviously means they have to give shit up,

which is the whole point. They've been spending decades and decades, centuries, consolidating that wealth and that status, of course this suddenly is like, oh, I don't want to give it away. I think as well, like, my thing here is, I have something I do want from myself in this episode and something I definitely don't want for myself in this episode. Something I don't want is I don't want to make anyone feel bad, genuinely, and I actually don't want, I don't reason to do.

There's literally, like, guys, who am I? Don't even listen to me. But also, like, no, no, no, no. No, do. But there's no reason to feel bad because it's like, all that the conversation is about is about acknowledging like it's not about and i also think acknowledging is like a really that doesn't have to be some i don't expect fucking a 15 year old girl to be like i acknowledge and i know everything i acknowledge it very well like i don't really expect i don't need a lot

i just would like like is there a willingness that's all that's all i if you see yourself in the in this conversation as someone who's coming from like a decent amount of privilege which also we both like goes out saying have a lot of privilege in a lot of different ways goes out saying totally if you see yourself in this conversation as someone who like has like a fair bit of something behind them hi and like just like you know what what do you think it's just an openness I think and also like the emphasis maybe being on like listening like for example that guy at the salon I've already said it now so at the but that is like actually hateful that's just like actually hate crime but like having my advice to him

would be. I've never encountered this person actually in the, like he's one of the people that I've never met. But if I was to speak to him through this very strange medium that will never reach him. Message in a bottle. It's kind of like, maybe rather than spewing out a load

of shit at your party, why don't you just like listen to what the working class people that are right there, what they're telling you right now, because they're all telling you don't understand this is really offensive and you're saying, you're doubling down and saying, no, no, this is what I believe.

Maybe rather than doing that, rather than doing that, maybe just listen. That would be my advice. I hate it. I hope. I know. That reaches you somehow. I hope I have really, a lot of ill will is coming towards you, Mr. Well, he really, it's not gone well for him.

I hope you've got your evil eye because I am really. It's been intriguing to hear it all as well. I'm sending some hateful thoughts your way. And also, the thing that I do want for myself in this episode is to like, I know that there'll be people listening who feel like, I don't know, I feel like I always, like, for example, at uni, it was really, like we were talking about earlier, things where people are saying stuff.

And if you're not in your right mind, it can really affect you. Like, people are saying stuff about, like, I grew up in a palace and they're just saying it like it's normal sort of thing. I'm just going on the yacht. If you're not in your right mind, boy, it eats you up. Like, that is really quite hard to stomach. And I just would love.

for anyone feeling like a little bit lost or like God forbid like ashamed about who you are or where you're at or where you're coming from that really makes me feel bad like yeah yeah and I just hope that you can like have lots of fun in your life and that you by the way like have a worthy voice that like can be heard and like the world is better with whatever you have to give in it definitely and you deserve to be able to do whatever it is that you however you want to spend your time here, I hope you can do that as much as possible. That has to be the crux, surely. That's the crux we got there.

Sending love basically all round, all round the world. Honestly. Honestly. Useless. But like really do hope everyone feels okay. Apart from that one guy. Also, it is horrible to feel frustrated. Like it is not good.

I hope it hasn't been like, depressing. Like I hope everyone feels like empowered, right? Like empowered angry rather than like hopeless. I hope you feel like seen and heard and recognised. Oh look. I can't. Look to be honest also I don't know how you feel. I don't know how you feel. I can only imagine how you feel. God knows how anyone here feels. Okay. All right. If you don't hear from us, if you don't hear from us, assume the worst.