Goes Without Saying - 'rasputin romances' & the myth of closure: podmas #4

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

merry podmas! festive podmothers sephy & wing enter a Big Sleigh: carolling on how to move on, closure, on-again-off-again, awkward situationships, and getting over it without making your friends hate you. ✷see more ✷ www.youtube.com/@sephyandwing ✷ www.instagram.com/sephyandwing ✷ www.tiktok.com/@sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, dot com. Wow, let the jingle bells ring, as they say. Let the jingle bells ring, we're back. We're back with a serious message for those who may need it. Just leave that alone, don't go back there. Yeah, we're moving on. Just let that die. We're

leaving that in, I don't know, whenever, 2024. God is it, 2025 now? It's gonna be 2025 which I really like the sound of. That's... I like the sound of that. 2025. I love that. That's the future. Mm-hmm. It's not looking good. Yikes. But there are so many things that are not getting brought into 2025. Yeah. This is a big topic I feel like. It's definitely a bit of a universal one that I feel like everyone in some capacity can relate to the idea of needing to get over something someone, you know, might hit harder at Christmas. I feel like it's a time, especially if you're going back to your family home, there are people there from the past. Yes, and they're lurking around.

Around every corner. They're testing the door, they're thinking, is that door still ajar? That door from five years ago, is that door still ajar? Wait, what did you just say? I said, is just Santa left me that door from five years ago that door still a job wait what did you just say I said it's just Santa So let me in little child Yeah, how to move on it's a good question. How do you move on? How to? Okay, so move on from what though? Like what are we going to do? Okay, so I'm picturing I'm going to say, look,

let's say we're all thinking, yeah, it's just this scrap. Yeah. Who's been loitering around and getting way too much bang for his buck. Yeah, they always are. Do you know what I mean? They're getting a real good deal. Meanwhile you're bankrupt. And you are absolutely, you've got nothing left. Yeah. And I think, you know, time and time and time

and time and time again, we've tried to end this and for whatever reason, it's Rasputin, it keeps coming back to like, we can't get rid of this guy. It's Rasputin. He's just unstoppable. The lover of the Russian machine. He's absolutely invincible. And we can't kill this guy and we need to just completely dead off now. Okay, so how do we get over him?

Specifically at Christmas? No, I don't think so. The poison berry. A lethal kiss under the mistletoe. Do a little catnip signature in the arena with him. I don't know what you do. I think, I can't think of anything. I don't know what you do. I think, okay, do you think that you can still be friends with an ex?

Yes, but after a lot of time has passed, I think people jump into it way too quickly. I do not possibly see how going from lovers, rara, raspatine, lover of the Russian queen to friends. I don't see how that is possible. I do think it's like, I've seen it happen where years down the line I do think there's an element of both being in good places, both wishing the other well. Where that does seem like that's a possibility. But I do think that probably will always have to be boundaries within that friendship and stuff. I think sometimes, well not even sometimes, I think most of the time you don't necessarily want to have a friendship with this person, you're just kind of like, oh I'm in your life.

Yeah I'm not really ready to see the back of this, which is fair enough. I can't have sex with you but I can still be with you and be hoping you're working towards that again. But I still need you here. Like I want it as an option, yeah exactly, I want it as an option that I can text you and then maybe later down the line fuck you once again. I actually disagree though, I don't even think it's about time with being friends with an ex, I think it's more about the specific circumstance or the specific dynamic of that relationship because I think enough time could pass with someone and it's still like it's never going to be right to be friends with them but then some people I think you can have a kind

of relationship that I don't want to say didn't mean that much but you could have some sort of thing going on where you were lovers and then maybe two weeks later it's just like oh we've just called that off and if neither of you are really that kind of... I think it's less about physical time than just about like the actual quality of what that relationship is that I think in certain dynamics... not to be like so meaningless that it's just... do you know what I mean? But like... I think it can almost be so meaningful that it kind of goes beyond the physical thing of like, we're not just... I don't need to be having sex with you to be...

kind of love... to love you as a friend. Like I think that's really tricky. physical thing of like, we're not just, I don't need to be having sex with you to be kind of love, to love you as a friend. Like I think that's really tricky. But I do think that is a thing of like, not necessarily, yeah, doesn't have to specifically be time, but both being in a position where it's like, say you, like you were in love with this person, whatever, and then you break up and you both then have kids with different people, you're both moved on, like you both truly have lived with different people, you both moved on, like you both truly have lived a whole life. I do think there's something really beautiful about being friends with that person. Yes, agreed. It's nice.

But I do think there would probably have to need, there would need to be, and that's not a mark of the fact that thing wasn't a deep loving thing, it's just like I don't want to be sleeping with you. No, if anything it's the opposite I think't want to be sleeping with you to love you. If anything I think if you can be friends it's a testament to like an actual real relationship as people rather than like a great romantic or sexual relationship. Because actually people that have said to me I would like to be friends like like, let's still be friends. I have often thought why the fuck would I be friends with you? You think you would be- Who are you being friends with? Well, there have definitely been some things that I would- some things that I've been in

that have ended and they've said, well, can we be friends? And I have thought, why on earth would I be friends with you? Well, I think it's- yeah, it's also the thing of like, what are you really saying? It's kind of like, let's dim this down a little bit and just keep it going like let's see each other less frequently let's leave the door open for sex you think you're funny you think you're cool you think you're worthy of my time why am i ending this you're not you're not even close to being up to the caliber of friend but i do think as well with like a real relationship ending you might have both of you might have checked out it could be the most meaningful relationship ever if you've both checked out a year ago it

might be easier to be friends quicker yeah yeah cuz you're already you're already doing it tricky very actually so okay let's put someone in the position of they have been sorry to put you guys in this position, Harry. Yeah, we put... Harry, I'm not necessarily speaking about you, but let's deal with this situation that's a tough one because I think this is where moving on needs to happen. The position of being dumped, I'm sorry. We're putting ourselves in the position of the dumpie. Definitely. How do you move on from that? It's not easy. I think my first thing is to let yourself go there emotionally of just like don't resist Like almost there's a I personally feel like that I always have an instinct to be like this is fine. I can do this. This is fine. And actually sometimes it's not fine

Sometimes it needs to be like okay hand up white flag. Whatever. This is not okay for me This is going to be really tough Also, I think there's a lot of ego involved and it can be really embarrassing. I think there's a lot of like shame around like feeling sad about relationships in general to be honest. I kind of think there's an expectation that all things should be able to happen to you and you just kind of take it on the chin and function normally. I can tell you I definitely will not be functioning normally. So that would be my first thing is to like validate

the thing of like, this is extremely shit and hard. Yeah. Because I think my instinct would be to be like, this is fine. Move on. Yeah, move on now, over it, over it, over it. Or just like, that's okay, it was meant to be, or just kind of rationalize, try and bring some sort

of analysis in to try and whatever, explain it. No, no, no, no, no. Just for now I'm just gonna feel really shit for a time. You know? What about you? I think that's the only way actually. I was listening to it. I saw this is not related to that in any way but kind of just reminded me of what she was saying, you saying like allowing yourself to feel it. It was, I don't know what podcast it was, I actually went to and like searched to try and find it but I couldn't know what podcast it was, I actually went and searched

to try and find it but I couldn't work out which one it was. Jeanette McCurdy being interviewed by these two men, didn't know what was going on, but she was talking about her relationship with Ariana Grande and how she was like, I would always feel so shit, she was a pop star and all of this stuff and I was... Jeanette McCurdy. Jeanette McCurdy and you're on Salmon Cat together and blah, blah, blah. And one's Ariana Grande and one's Jean McCurdy Queen. Yeah. And we're like, but like obviously there's a social thing

of like Ariana Grande is thriving and Jeanette McCurdy at that time was not. And she was saying like, I would always be like, oh, I shouldn't compare myself to Ariana Grande. I should compare myself to like this like person that's like a director or something like that. I should compare myself to them instead and would feel so shit like why am I comparing myself to Ariana Grande? She's a pop star and I don't even want to be a pop star.

And then she was saying when what I should have done is just allow myself, rather than questioning why am I comparing myself to this person who happens to be Aaron O'Grande. It should be actually like allowing herself to feel it and dealing with the emotion of it rather than trying to intellectualise why she would be feeling that specific thing and how long it should take her to get over that thing. And I think that reminded me of what you were saying just in the sense that it's like rather than trying to work out or like I feel like an instinct is so say you're trying to get over someone there there would be an instinct maybe to be like, he's not even that great anyway, but remember on my birthday, he didn't even like show up to this thing. And like, remember like my friend always said that he was this and like, I also fancy this guy like

I know it all along. Yeah, trying to do all of this like logical stuff to like help yourself. And I feel like that is the brain doing its thing but what actually is going on is not happening in the brain it's actually happening in the body like you physically feel sick and like rejected and all this stuff like you'll feel like a lot of heartbreak and pain so like thinking about oh well maybe I should go and like and get with this guy instead that might help me oh it's kind of stop Jeanette McCurdy, it's not about Ariana Grande. Pull back the curtain. It's like you feel shit because look, I mean we've all read the book now, we know there's a lot of fucking shit going on there. Time to feel

that rather than like think about oh maybe I should compare myself to a director or all of this shit. But the way she was saying it I just loved. But if anyone can find that, what that is, not just a clip, I'd love to listen to the full thing. I wonder if you go on Spotify and type in the words she was saying because sometimes it recognises. I've looked for all the Jeanette McCurdy stuff but I feel like she just did such a big book tour. Everything is about... I wonder if you do Jeanette McCurdy comparison Ariana Grande.

The thing is that was in her book as well, so it's like. But it recognizes the words, so I feel like it might come up. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, I can read, I literally love her. I think it is really that thing of like, almost we have these rules of like,

I am allowed to feel this and I'm not allowed to feel that, and like putting this some sort of moral code and all of our feelings and being like, I'm not allowed to compare myself to Ariana Grande. Or like, oh, just, it becomes so deep. Like the layers of it is almost like, God, you're really jumping. It's these kind of like the rings of feeling bad about this

and then comparing myself to Ariana Grande. And then being aware of that, I'm comparing myself to Ariana Grande. And then thinking, am I allowed to compare myself to Ariana Grande? That's not helpful that I'm comparing myself to Ariana Grande. What if I tried this instead? Maybe I'm only allowed to do it this way.

Like all of these sorts of weird rules and it's like, you don't be much smarter than any of this smart stuff. If you just felt shit for today. If you just compared yourself to Ariana Grande and just felt, I feel shit because I'm comparing myself to Ariana Grande. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. That's literally fine. That's perfect.

That's not illegal. That's amazing. That's a perfectly normal emotion. Yeah, we welcome that. And I think that's the thing of like, oh, I'm feeling shit because I can't let this thing go. It's taken up, you know, X amount of time and a huge amount of... This is an ad by BetterHelp. What's your perfect night? Is it curling up on the couch for a cozy, peaceful night in? Therapy can feel a bit like that, your comfort place where you replenish your energy. With BetterHelp, get matched with a therapist

based on your needs entirely online. It's convenient and suited to your schedule. Find comfort this season with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com. off your first month. That's betterhelphelp.com. My kind of mind and my heart and all of this stuff and it feels difficult to feel like I don't have access to it anymore. Yeah, that's exactly how it feels. And that's not going to be easy. But literally the only way is through it. I hate to say the worst way through it. Yeah. The worst way

to get to a destination through it. Through it. But it is that I think. Well either it like whatever happens you are gonna have to go through and face it so it's like either you can you prolong it and distract yourself for ages you're still gonna have to go through it in the end. Yeah. So might as well just go face it head on. Yeah and may as well just do it and I think don't make yourself feel bad, like don't punish yourself or like almost like you're like don't be disappointed in yourself for feeling bad. I always feel like people take it as a failing of like I'm you know like feeling the shock of how affected they are by something. But it's literally human nature if anything it's a good sign that it's like, okay, functioning human with brain and heart

and all of these things that you like. It's a nice thing to experience a complex range of emotions. And a lot of them are horrible. Yeah. A lot of them are really shit, actually. Go on. Right, I know, I have nothing.

I'm just sort of thinking. Yeah, what are you thinking? Because you look so deep in thought. I know, I was just thinking. Just mulling. What's next? You know, just sort of. Well, I also don't like the idea of somebody getting kind of like they're stringing you along. Oh, that's bad. You know when it's almost like look you've left the door ajar, as we say Santa comes creeping in every now and then. Hello. Hello, it's Santa. Let me in, let me in.

Yeah, that I think is where it starts to get really let me in. That I think is where it starts to get really difficult. You need that Jacqueline Wilson clean break. You need that. You do. Just a clean slate because it's so difficult when the ending becomes really muddy. When you know it should have ended quite a lot before. It should have been clean over six months ago but for some reason you've been looping back in and out of each other's lives. And often those decisions are like, I would say like made in vulnerable states, like when you would be feeling lonely or when you're drunk or when they're drunk late at night after a bad day, like those are often made, you know when you're making a bad decision

I think and that adds to like the self hatred of all. And also just the idea of like you we kind of I think psychologically choose like the devil that we know sort of vibe of like it is scary to that two rooms ahead of you one of them look really horrible looks really horrible but the other one is pitch black. Yeah. You still have a choice of like oh which one do I take? Even though the pitch black room might be filled with marshmallows and butterflies and it's lovely in there, because you don't know, it's scary to do it,

but it's still the wrong choice to go into the one where you can see the kind of Michael Jackson and the clown and the scary stuff. You know that that's not right for you. Just because you don't know what the alternative can be right now you might not know what that looks like. That often is where it's good as well. Well it's definitely there's no point going back to something that you know is shit. Yeah. But psychologically we find that very hard. I would say pretty much all of the good things that have happened to me have been stepping into like unknown

circumstances like taking a risk like risks the essence of a risk is that it's scary but if you take no risks your life is shit. 100%. So it's kind of an easy decision. It's also the thing of like it's easy to be impressed with something when you go in with no expectations I think it says a lot about like ideas that we have about things whereas like, when you go in with no expectations, I think it says a lot about ideas that we have about things. Whereas like, yeah, if you go into something completely fluid and just open and don't know what to expect, whatever, just open to it, you probably will receive it a little bit better than going in with a really strict view of like, this has to be like, da-da-da-da-da.

You're going to be- Impossible. It's only like set up for disappointment's impossible to enjoy, you cannot. Yeah. Like not a doable thing. No, not in my opinion. No. So how do you support someone that is getting over someone? So say your friend is trying to get over someone. This is advice for the friend of the friend. Okay, we now speak directly to you. Now directly to you. How do you support someone? I think it's without judgement. 100%

I think sometimes, I think often times actually a lot of relationships carry a lot of judgement and you're always absorbing the other person's projections of what they think or their own insecurities lashing out on you or like their rules or their ideas or what they think they can see from the outside view of like why don't you just do this sort of thing and I think to really be there for someone you can come in with all of your advice and love and good ideas and all of this stuff but also um like yeah are you willing to be there for them with no judgment? Are you willing to support them and give them love? Even when it's like a bit frustrating because it is really frustrating. And I do think, especially with a going back and forth situation,

maybe couldn't be more frustrating. It's probably up there with one of the most frustrating things you can be a part of or be witnessing. Um, but I think someone who's going through the motions of back and forth with somebody, probably in that situation just needs to feel like validated and loved and they're kind of, they're making these choices maybe

from a lack of love and validation and from insecurity and all of this stuff. So the hardest thing at that time is to witness them making these bad decisions. But actually what they do need most from you probably and all of this stuff. So the hardest thing at that time is to witness them making these bad decisions. But actually what they do need most from you probably is knowing that they are like secure and loved and all of this stuff.

And I also think it's good to have fun. And like almost laughing while you're crying is probably the best thing you can do. Oh my God, it's the best. That's actually probably one of the best feelings on earth. Yeah. You've just cried. You've just had like a bit of a cry.

Maybe you're still crying. And then you're laughing. Yeah. Yeah, best feeling. Wide open. Yeah, you are. You're wide open. And yeah, I love that.

I love that so much. I also completely agree about like, support is the best way to do it. Like I feel like what I've witnessed a few times and I've probably actually fallen into this myself, especially with the yo-yoing thing. Watching someone make a mistake is really tricky and it breeds, like it brings up a feeling of frustration because you love your friend so much

and you want them to love themselves and see all of the stuff and stop kind of disrespecting themselves. And you see this guy get away with this blah blah blah. It's frustrating but I think there's a way of expressing that frustration in a productive way that isn't demeaning that person's choice or like, I don't know, you're not the priority in that moment. You being frustrated is not the priority here. I think that's the main thing, yeah.

Your frustration with your friend who's actually going through something is just not that important. What I have seen kind of semi-recently a couple months ago is someone that is there with a boy who was treating them really badly, like it was their boyfriend treating them really badly. They broke up and now they're getting back together

and blah, blah, blah. And the friend, he thought he was really supporting his friend basically being like, oh yeah, they're a piece of shit. You need to dump them, all this stuff. And getting quite angry essentially being like, you need to just see the truth here. You need to break up with them, blah, them blah blah blah I support you better than they ever

could sort of thing okay and it has been quite a biting my tongue situation of like that is not how you support a friend like it's so obvious what the friend needs here is just like to feel that they can make a mistake and not lose their friend in the process mmm I. But I don't know, I guess the frustration does kind of win out sometimes. The frustration is incredibly real because it is really painful. But... What was painful as going through a breakup and getting back with them and all of that shit is so fucking real.

It's also about narratives, like I feel like coming to something, even with hindsight of like, oh that was the time when, god, she was like really going through something and she was going back and forth with him and yes, she was having a terrible time is very different to, oh, right now my friend's just being a bitch. Like she's not taking any of my advice and she's just being so annoying. She's disrespecting my time and she's da da da da da, going back on her work, all of this stuff that they're very different narratives. And I think one of them obviously, the everything is, the hindsight is everything and also...

I think there also does come a point with these things though, like these things are inevitable, like it is inevitable that as a human you will fuck up and your friends will fuck up and all of these things. Absolutely. You will be, you'll make bad choices especially in like romantic relationships, like it is a weak, it's a blind spot for people for sure. That is inevitable. But I also think there does come a point for me personally. And I actually think maybe for people generally, that if it's a pattern that is going on for a long time where you're consistently watching someone treat themselves like this, and it

sort of seems like it's not got an end in sight and you've done all the allowing them the time and all of the stuff, trying to help them and trying to support them and all of the stuff. For me maybe there does come a point where I need to dip out of that and just I can't watch this any longer and actually I don't think it's after a long time but like I think there does come a point for me where it's like I actually just don't think I can watch this any longer. Well I do think as well it's important for point for me where it's like I actually just don't think I can watch this any longer Well, I do think it's well It's important for people to recognize that it's like your role here is a friend not like a therapist and also not God

I'm not like you're not kind of the creator This is not in your control and kind of in that like way that we see ourselves free will Yeah, like It's not your responsibility to fix your friend or your friend's relationship or any of this stuff. And I think having the expectation on yourself that you can be the one to make them see it is... But what is that?

It's kind of weird. What do you mean? What do you mean, what is that? Well, it's kind of weird to be like, oh, I've got to make them see it. It's like, who says your perspective is even? Well I think that's the thing is when people give advice they expect their advice will be taken for example. Well that's fucking stupid as fuck. I think that's the thing is when people want to support their friend they think that it's you know gonna work out

or like they think that their support or their advice will be heed by birds. Your advice is subjective. Sort of thing, yeah. It's almost, you know, you're not a therapist. Maybe you are, but you're probably not. You're not a therapist. You're not a therapist, and you're not a professional, and this is not your job. And like. And your friends are not an extension of you.

Yeah, don't over inflate your role in this. You do your bit and be there for them, and then that is the end of that, think 100% okay so does everyone feel like they get on the road to getting over someone? moved on, over it! oh god who? literally who? yeah kind of a strange podmas episode but I like it oh I like it no I really like it but it just doesn't feel Christmasy but I guess not every podmas episode is a Christmas episode I don't think they do not when we do 25 I think most of them don't in fact. Oh god, we could be Christmas-style guys.

I think when we were doing 12 they felt more Christmasy. But 25 episodes is like, yeah, you get a bit of everything in there. It's not chocolate every day. Sometimes it's bolognese. Sometimes it's... It's not everyday chocolate in your advent calendar. Some days it's sushi, some days it's like chicken wing. And if you've got the Tony Chocoloney one, sometimes it's just a bit of payday. everyday chocolate in your advent calendar some days are sushi some days are like chicken wings um and if you've got the Tony Chocoloney one yeah sometimes it's just a bit of paper saying tin foil no um okay thanks everyone well what is it? Merry Pogmas and a Harry new year

Happy New Year. replenish your energy. With BetterHelp, get matched with a therapist based on your needs entirely online. It's convenient and suited to your schedule. Find comfort this season with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.com.