Goes Without Saying - the emotional intelligence gap: eldest daughter v. boyfriend

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

podmothers sephy & wing enter the chat: spiralling on teaching your boyfriend emotional intelligence, male validation, fizzling friendships, double standards, being a daughter. ✷see more ✷ www.youtube.com/@sephyandwing ✷ www.instagram.com/sephyandwing ✷ www.tiktok.com/@sephyandwingshop ✷ www.sephyandwing.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Goes without saying, you're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Sefi. And I'm Wing. And this is an episode about friendship. We're talking specifically about how people get away with shit that they shouldn't. And I think a big theme is boys, so that's quite a fun one. We're talking about how boys are just able to get away with literally the bare minimum, especially in friendship, and just like the nuances there. So enjoy! Go. Take one. Take two. Oh shit sorry. No take one. Okay right, hi. Hi. Um, okay. Back for more. Yeah, back for more. I'm excited for this. Same. Excited to see what everyone

says. It's definitely landed, this concept, I think. Yeah, it definitely has. Okay, which is good to know because I was a little bit worried. yeah same. it's hard sometimes to feel like you're making sense. yeah and you shouldn't just give it all up and shut up. I personally love this convoy. me too and as we said it we've said it in the last few episodes seems to be a universal issue at the moment. yeah kind of you know how people that are spiritual are like, it's something within the collective. It is the collective. It's like it's a theme that's coming up with the collective. That's what I'm getting.

That's how I feel. I'm really feeling like in the mood for tarot and stuff. Yeah, spooky. Yeah, like I'm really feeling a bit like maybe I should kind of become a bit of a witch. Definitely! Why would you not? Definitely. I don't know maybe to protect my uh sanity? I'm definitely doing a reading often. Like I'm picking a card quite often and I said this to you earlier actually I'm getting the lover's card so fucking much. But isn't it definitely telling of my state of mind. why? when i start looking to the cards it's like oh right so you're not feeling very old

pop of things. no the cards is a good thing to look for. no no it is, it's so much fun. but it's when i start getting that itch of like universe give me a sign like it's almost like are you okay? like it's a bit like- no i'm always universe give me a sign. but sometimes i'm more universe- i'm extra universe give give- i always want a sign. i'm always bruce almighty. i'm always saying universe give me a sign. good lord give me a sign. but i do think it's something to do with the weather changing because i have a weird thing. every every single october i get absolutely obsessed with space. it's like i just get really really like watching space

documentaries I watched a space documentary the other day which one? the one about Apollo 13 no oh yeah yeah yeah it's just come out yeah yeah I haven't watched it yet it was good they're all fucking great like just mental mental stuff yeah so I think it's something to do with the weather like I'm always interested in space but in October it's the gloomy sort of like oh what's out there guys. It's also my birthday which I feel like maybe makes me think subconsciously who am I, where am I, what am I doing. Yeah I think that makes perfect sense. Like Lord give me a sign. Universe step in. But do you think then so when you're looking at sort of when you're having the thoughts I'll become a witch because trust me, I know them well.

You think that's a sign of like not doing well? No, I think I can be doing fine but I think it's not even not doing well, it's just like, okay so you're looking for an answer. Yeah. More than usual. You want to get some clarity out of it. It's like okay I've asked my friends and you know I've thought about it and I've like, you know, I've chilled out about it. But now I need to take it to the next level

I need to and ask sort of God. Yeah, I need to ask the universe. It's like okay then It's definitely I am very even as a child I was very susceptible to like this universe spiritual stuff. Like I'm just I'm very like even as a child, I was very susceptible to like this universe, spiritual stuff. Like I'm just, I'm very, like I'm a spooky psychic girl. Like I am like a universal, there has to be some bigger, do you know what I mean? Like I'm a widow. And I just feel like when that, I become more aware of it I think. As I've gotten older, I'm more aware of like how much i have looked to paranormal

spiritual things to give to help me make sense of my life. but is it that you're looking to them or that you're seeing shit like i genuinely i keep because i the full moon the other day the super moon i was hit quite hard by it the emotions were were all over the place, absolutely couldn't have felt more emotional and crazy on that day. It was like three days ago or something. And every time I've said to people, like I got it was the moon, blah, blah, blah, people roll their eyes and stuff.

And it's just like- Well I said it to you that day, I was like, you need to know by the way. It's the fucking moon. Okay, so basically- I don't know how, because I felt mental. My mum does a full moon circle every month

with all these women on the hill. I should go. Well this is the thing, people, there's a long old list of people that want to go into this thing. Oh right, okay. It's a very um... It's a very um... It's um kind of...

I don't know what they're actually doing up there because they won't let anyone in. Okay wow so you can't even go? No, god no. Really? I wouldn't want to though, god knows what she's saying up there. God I wouldn't... To the moon. Can we not try and go one time? i really wouldn't want to. like in the weirdest i really wouldn't. i feel like it's

like a load of women going around talking about their... oh it's almost like... talking about their what? their lives. talking about their... what? doctor? they're murderous plans. it's almost just like my mum's friends. yeah but they're not my mum's friends they're my friend's mum's friends so I am into it. yeah they're my friend's mum's friends. it's intriguing a full moon circle with all these women. I'm not one to turn it down. but so I'm very the moon is a thing so I kind of really do think it like I really do I kind of know it is an impactful thing but people don't seem to agree like it's still seen as like a woo woo thing. it is an impactful thing, but people don't seem to agree. Like it's still seen as like a woo woo thing or whatever.

It is seen as woo woo, but then we were saying we're made up of X amount of water. It makes a lot of sense. It does, if it's pulling the seas around. Do you know what I mean? It makes tons of sense. And that day, so basically what happened was, I don't think we said this, but said we had a huge drama

and then you called me and you were like, this is a huge drama. And I was like, yeah, this is actually, I'll say it is quite a huge drama and then you called me and you were like, this is a huge drama and I was like, yeah, this is actually, I'll say it is quite a huge drama. And then after our phone call, I texted you saying, by the way, in not a patronizing way, and in a really comforting way, yeah, it's a Harvest Moon in Pisces. So just hold on to that.

And it did land, because I was nervous that you would be like, you fucking patronising little bitch. No, it's instantly like that makes so much sense. But then I guess, I don't know, like- Well, I didn't want you to think that I was undermining your feelings. Like, I don't like the thing of like, you know, when you're- It's validating though. Yeah. Like someone being like emotional or something. Someone being emotional. No, I find that so-

And then someone being like, oh, you're coming on your period, remember? Or like the moon moon remember? it's almost like that means that you don't actually feel this way, it's just the moon making you feel this way. no but i love that. but i do actually feel this way. i'd love not to feel like that. just because it's the moon or just because it's the period doesn't mean i don't actually feel it. dot dot dot. anyway this is all relevant because... how is it relevant? i don't think it is for... anyway. yeah. okay. also I just want to address the rain quickly if you can hear that I'm so sorry. I hope you can hear it. it's really quite stunning but it's absolutely chucking it down. it's a summer's day here. that is nuts. it's blue sky, I'm hot. I'm really jealous. it is. we've been through in the last episode but it's fucking mental rain. anyway. all right. well should we get straight in? yeah. okay so we're been through in the last episode, it's fucking mental. Anyway, all right, well, should we get straight in? Yeah. Okay, so we're obviously speaking about the double standards

in friendships, relationships, like why some people can get away with being a fucking arsehole and some people can't, blah, blah, blah, different standards, different people, different dynamics, it's power, it's weirdness, it's whatever. Yeah. Okay, somebody said, and this is something we've explicitly spoken about before,

so I feel like it's a fun one for the pod this person said I Think I let my male friends get away with being quote-unquote meaner to me as that's how they treat each other Yeah, do you know what I thought of this when we're recording the last episode first just mere minutes ago But for you four days ago all that time ago. Yeah all that time ago. I Genuinely put the note in my brain bring this up and then obviously the note and crum put itself up and set on fire within seconds just disappeared. the note said note to self note to saffi self said bring up the standard of that your friends are men yeah low bar the bar is in... in hell. it's actually insane. so freya actually bought this up at our

dumpling day lunch she said oh my god yeah the standard for men is so low. yes. and don't we know it. and don't we know it. and genuinely i don't think i'm gonna tell this full fucking story but like oh my no i don't think i'm even gonna tell it at all but I just completely completely think the standard for men not even in romantic relationships but in friendship the things they get away with whereas if one of my friends that's a girl acted like that I'd literally be like are you fucking okay or like we'd fall out over some of this shit that boys get away with yeah they can not show up they can can be rude, they can say crazy things and truly I think it comes down to like probably nothing else other than the

patriarchy. It is the patriarchy but there's also a... okay this is a bit sick but so for example in the last episode I was saying like I felt like I was being judged harshly by a friend that I would never I don't I wouldn't expect I wouldn't judge them harshly by a friend that I would never, I wouldn't expect, I wouldn't judge them harshly in the same way. And it's almost like now I've got a grovel to be friends with you, why? Why oh, why oh, why oh?

And if this was the other way around and I pulled the shit that you pulled on me, we wouldn't be friends. And yet time and time again, I come crawling, please, please, please be my friend, please be my my friend and this is the thing that I think happens with boys is like are we that desperate just to be friends with you that I'll let you do anything genuinely I just I think it's so cool you're so cool please please like me please like me I'll let you do anything. A boy is still valued as more than a girl in society.

It's just worth oh my god I want to be friends with you so bad, I'll let you be so annoying and rude and mean. I do think that's what it comes down to, it's almost like, I think there's also the element of like, you don't hold them in the same esteem, like yeah, you are absolutely capped at a C, barely fucking scraping that C, you capped motherfucker at that C you will you don't get access to all of these things by nature of the dynamic like that is I do think there's so many things oh I don't know if I agree with that though. It's case by case I guess. It totally is. But there's something yeah

yeah go on yeah what are you gonna say there was something there? Oh yeah. Just a little mischievous little smile. Well, no, I'm just kind of thinking I don't know if I do agree. I don't know if he's capped at a C, but I think it's just like, you don't, you know, you kind of expect them to be a bit silly and like, oh, he's not gonna get it, sort of thing.

Yeah, I don't know if I was almost gonna just like, name names. Oh, wow. Okay, okay. But I don't think I am. No? Just almost for clarity's sake, but I don't think I'm going to. Oh but I kind of need some clarity on what you're giving me. If you couldn't figure out a way to give me a bit more on that I would be really happy. Yeah because you were starving hungry.

Yeah. No I can't. Alright. That's the problem though. Okay I'll let that go then. Well I also think a lot of people said this is a different I'm sure I screenshotted something of this. No, I didn't damn but a lot of people were saying In response like on the instagram a lot of you were saying like it's about emotional intelligence And then I think that in turn goes hand in hand with being friends with boys. It's like you expect Less you expect less emotional intelligence of boys and men. Yeah. Because they're just, yeah, I've already written you off that you're not gonna get it.

And they're also not necessarily trained in it. Like, the, I do think a lot of the time emotional intelligence often, I hear that it's women often introducing men to these topics of like, you can tell me about this, oh you don't need to bottle it all up, blah blah blah blah. Yeah. And actually have these conversations. Emotions for dummies, baby's first cry. It's very much not a thing that our society lends itself to for men. Like whereas women, god so much of the friendship is built up around emotions and crying and being vulnerable and all of this stuff and just the whole thing. Whereas for men, I don't think friendship and emotional vulnerability necessarily go hand in hand. It's more just someone to go to the pub with and have a kick around with.

Which to be honest sounds so nice. It sounds great, yeah, why not? I always have a bit of a vendetta against the fact, and actually this isn't actually my vendetta, this is a bit of a vendetta against the fact that actually this isn't actually my vendetta This is our friend Alice's vendetta. Like she's always like It's so unfair that like almost like boys would just be like, oh, yeah Do you want to meet up in the park and they'd have like a kick? There'd be a ball. Yeah around so she always brings a frisbee

It's just so nice to have something... A prop. To do. Like boys can just kick a ball for hours and that's so fun. She would want to take a frisbee and then you're just throwing this thing around having a chat. Oh my. Well it's insane how gendered human activity has become. Totally.

And like hobbies. Why do boys get to play an activity whilst they talk? Whereas girls just have to sort of sit there and talk. And look into each other's eyes and... Yeah, which I mean I kind of would prefer. I wasn't really a big fan of football. but it can be a.. but it would be nice. yeah. like if i started.. if i bought a ball and said do you want to have a kick around it would be absolutely absolutely insane. it would definitely be new. it would be a new thing. i'd be

like what you got there? what are you holding behind your back? what have you bought? um play a bit of footage. but frisbee i did think it's like look that is a bit of footage. But a frisbee, I did think it's like, look, that is actually fun. The girl that brings a frisbee to the party. Yeah, it's really fun. She's a fun girl. It's really weird as well. Bold move from her. It's a great move, it's a great move.

But it is- It's iconic. It highlights the kind of dynamic that we settle into. Like, it's all about habit, it's all about stereotype. It's all about like, this is just what we expect from him. He just turns up with a football and he's a bit of a dick sometimes. And so we just let it go, we don't think about stereotype. It's all about like this is just what we expect from him He just turns up with a football and he's a bit of a dick sometimes and so we just let it go We don't think about it We don't question why and he's on I got with a few of the people in the group and maybe fuck them over a little Bit but we'll let it slide. Yeah, and I'm getting involved. That's that's your drama with him. Not with me

It's got not yeah, he's always nice to me because he's waiting for his turn with you dot dot dot. I think that's one of the things that I think girls get held to a really different standard. If there was a guy in a friendship group that slept with like a few members of that group or like had like things with a few of them that's sort of seen as maybe a more yeah we'll allow it or whatever. Whereas if there was a girl that had slept with a lot of members of that group I do think there would be questions asked, the girls would feel different about her, there'd be a funniness around her. The boys aren't des- the boy is not gonna be- the boyfriends are- they're not desperate to be friends with this one girl.

They don't want to be friends with the girl because they don't see her as a human being. It's like, oh, if she's an option to fuck, maybe. She's already fucked all my friends, probably not, she's a riot off, move on. Whereas a group of girls- It doesn't mean the same. We're more desperate to be friends with a boy. Generally speaking, don't shoot the messenger, guys. I'm just making crazy statements on a podcast, I'm allowed to do that.

I do think that's true, though. I really, really do think that's true. And obviously it is, like, I think I'm sort of listening, hearing that through people's ears and being like, that's not true because of this person. Exactly, and it's not, it's not because of this person. Exactly and it's not It's not because of that person. That person's great. No, yeah, he's he's amazing He's amazing. No, I love him. No, you don't get it. He's he's nice

He is nice. But we do know as a society men are allowed to get away with So much more it It's actually not even fucking comparable. You can't debate me on that. Yeah, no, I'm not. And that obviously does come up with friendship. Men are valued higher as a higher worth in society. We know that, and of course that comes through in all the ways. It's why women say all the fucking time, it's the pick me fucking thing. Literally. I'm only friends with men. I'm only friends with men.

Literally. I'm only friends with men. Do you ever hear fucking men saying, I'm only friends with girls? If they are saying that, some bells are ringing in your head. It's a bit strange. You're maybe thinking, okay, I think you might be gay. Like there are definitely, it is not measured

for the fucking sake. It's an achievement. Being validated by men, being liked by men is an achievement. It's a, there's a currency in that. That is a transactional thing that you can check that in and score your capital points wherever you want. In the same way that One Direction or Taylor Swift are not high brow musicians because they're liked by young girls.

And the minute if they had an audience of 35 year old men, oh, that's a real serious band. That's a serious musician. We don't trust the judgments of women, we trust the judgments of men. That's why when you're liked by a boy and you have a man as a friend, it's an achievement. Yeah, totally. It's exactly why the male gaze is such a highly esteemed thing in society that people are, it is built into our culture that women should strive for this thing, um, in place of like, personal style, what we actually look like, all of this stuff. And it's why people say, I'm not like other girls. It is

literally built into the culture. It's the difference between a mother of a daughter and a son. It's, ah, I'm a boy mom so I don't want him to get married and I'm already crying about him having a wife. I'm seeing these TikToks so much. I'm seeing these TikToks so fucking much that are like, my son, my son, my son. And I see it all the time.

We treat little boys and little girls so different. we treat little boys and little girls like so different. so differently. it's... yeah. well it's why all the daughters, i don't know, a lot of daughters end up doing so much of the domestic chores whereas the boys are off playing on their fucking xbox. they're playing footy. or having a kick around for example. yeah. like how many... i don't know. and the girl has done all her chores and then leaves the house embarrassed by the frisbee. Bro, that's best case scenario. Sure it is, of course it is, yeah. God knows, then she goes upstairs and straightens her hair and texts the boy that's too busy

playing fucking football outside. Like, so many people that I know and have known in my life have had to pick up sort of chores like, they'll have to be the one cooking dinner, they'll be doing the weekly shop, they'll be checking in after, they have to pick up blah, blah, blah, whilst the boys just really kind of just get to exit.

Also doing the emotional work of like, I'm neutralizing this room so that he doesn't kick off with you in a minute, or I am keeping everybody happy so that this doesn't all turn to shit when we sit down for dinner. Like, I am constantly reading the room and moving you all like puppets in my game so that I can go to sleep at night calmly and not crying.

I am working the room every minute. I am making sure you guys are okay because if you're not, trust me, I'll be the first to know. But this is kind of my problem with, okay okay this is kind of getting into my gripes with like male friends, but this is something I was speaking about recently with some other friends about their male friend who I don't know, so I'm completely safe here. If you're my guy friend listening to this, this is literally not about you. So true. But it does apply to you. I've told you that. This does apply. Oh yeah I forgot that he was here. He'd be listening. Hello. Jack, hi. But this isn't

about you. No you're safe for now. Not everything's about you. Not everything's about you Jack. This is not about you. This is actually about my friend's friend. Okay. Does he know who they are? Yeah everyone knows his friend. Okay so yeah he'll be loving this then. Because now he's safe. He's like yeah take them down. It's got nothing to do with me. you know when it's tricky it's almost it's tricky because i have loads of friends that are girls so i can just blame it on the other one whereas i only have one friend that's a boy so it's almost like oh i am talking about you well now we're not now we're not now we're actually not yeah this is an issue i think that comes up a lot in these kind of friendships okay so halloween day halloween night in fact me and my friend walk into the room. It's all

my guy friends, friends. We walk into the room. Some girls are quite weird with us, almost like they whisper. I hear one of them whisper, is that blah blah blah blah. They're talking about my friend that I'm with. It was just one of those things. It's like, okay, a conversation has been had. I think we're seen as some kind of obstacle. I don't know, like a threat in some way, or like there is definitely a dynamic in this room. We've walked into something. Something is, um, these girls don't like us and we know it, like, and that's fine. The night continues, they're kind of rude again, they say something really like, I don't know, it was more kind

of targeted towards my friend because she had got with one of the guys there the last halloween that was really what was going on here we then say to jack later in the or the the friend the friend we say to him those your friends are being really rude to the other friend like they are being rude and it's the classic thing and this is it's not his fault this is what all these this is such a common issue because this is, you know, the guy says, no, they're not. You're overthinking it. God, of course they're not. No, she's really nice. She's so nice. They really like you guys. Yeah, they really like you, blah, blah, blah. And this comes down to why do you think you are better at reading dynamics with women than us? We have lived through this. We know the passive aggression that's going on. We it and we've had to convince you of it

Because you won't you don't understand it like you're telling me something's not there that is there I know it's fucking there because I've lived it my whole life. This is what these Groups all these groups we've been in our lives. I've lived through fucking year nine of school Yeah, I know passive aggression. I've seen it all when I hear I hear it. I know it. And I do think so many friends that this is kind of the story I was going to tell before but just of my other friends, guy friends, like he is often like to them, guys, no, that's not it. You're reading it wrong, blah, blah, blah. So I know this is a common issue in groups and especially with like friendship with men. I think men like to, it is kind of mansplaining but they like to over... it's like I hate to say it Jack

undermining the feelings of this poor guy. I hate that he got named. Maybe we shouldn't put his name in. well why did you? I just feel like he takes a brunt of shit on here because he's like often my case studied. why did you name him? you didn't have to. okay well let's not let's not name him then. Well I don't know if I can cut all of that out. Okay, basically sorry. I don't think he'll mind, but like, I didn't think you were gonna tell a story about him

when you said his name. I thought then you were gonna talk about the other guy. That's why you named him. I was, and then I changed, I pivoted the story because I actually just had more experience with that one. Crazy. Yeah, I think that's fine. Okay well sorry. Yeah he's fine. We don't mean it Jack.

No Jack you don't get it! We're not saying it like that Jack! We're trying to say it. You wouldn't get it! Jack they don't mean it! But I think it's just a common issue of like men not really understanding or like they think they have a better understanding of a dynamic that you obviously understand so much yeah it's just I mean it's not anything personal that person is doing because I hear about it in so many different things of men being like no no like don't worry that you just really

wrong Charlie XCX has a lyric about it I really don't like for her yeah it's the song that's kind of about Taylor Swift that's like, i don't wanna see this girl at my boyfriend's home. yes and george says, i'm just being silly. george. yeah he says, george says, you're just paranoid. yeah. and it's like george. if someone's helping i'm paranoid. no. why aren't you necking george. jesus. of course. of course. why aren't you freaking necking him. you're charlie xx at your show, george is there, the 1975 are there, whatever. yeah. suddenly taylor swift is there. the energy changes. you're no longer the star here charlie. like of course you feel insecure. and to be honest there probably were some moments there. there's two pop stars in the room and there are some men here. she went on tour supporting her. there's an obvious dynamic. come on. George, she's not just paranoid. George, I don't get how... George, you've read it wrong. And I... that... yeah. I don't know. It's definitely, definitely, definitely a common thing. My George personally couldn't be telling

me these things without a... it would be a big cause for concern. George says you're just paranoid. That's a different song for me personally. That's like, okay, I'm writing some... There definitely are some things with Charlie like um there's um some moments. I've seen a few things about George um as we know I'll support everything Charlie does but I do think there seems to be some issues with George. There was a bit where she was talking about like don't patronise me when it's like she'll be yeah doing her DJ thing. She's just joking but you know

it makes me think. Well, I just think generally all feelings should be validated and we can definitely have a conversation and it's always important. It's one of the best things about having people in your life who care about you. And it's the biggest thing that me and Sefi say is like the worst thing you can have is a load of yes men.

Like you need people around you who are gonna be like, no, shut up, like you're reading that wrong, you're weighing your head, like da, da, da, da, da. But also, yeah, you need to feel secure in your judgements that you're making. And like when you're really turning to somebody in your life that you care about and sharing how you feel, it cannot be brushed off with a like,

trust me, you're not right. It's like, no, no, no, trust me, motherfucker. Last thing, change of pace. This different note. The label of, quote unquote, best friend can be so destructive, you expect too much from this one person. I feel like we haven't ever spoken about that.

And I- Could you say it again, sorry. This person said, the label of best friend can be so destructive because you expect too much from this one person. And I have never really thought about that and I feel like we've never really spoken about it but it's a great point. It's a great point for us to discuss in particular I would say. Best friend is a weird one. It is a weird one. I think there's like, I definitely when I was younger had like a pressure almost to have like a best

friend. Did you have a best friend? I think I always did, like I, yeah, but I, it's almost like, why did it? Suddenly it sounds weird. The question you need the label of it. Best friend. It's a really weird one. It's kind of, I mean when we were, like, 2004 everything's like, groovy trick,

like pink and purple, and it would say like, cool, style, best friend in a heart. Do you know what I mean? Like it was almost like a buzzword that would be like on a diary that you would buy. Best friends. It definitely is. It would be like Jacqueline Wilson, best friends.

Yeah, something best friends. Yeah, best of friends, CBBC, Blue Tongue. Great show. I've never had a CBBC kind of girl. But I big time was. But I do think best friend is a strange one or like you're my second best friend like I'll imagine crazy but that was the thing no no no it is is I mean when you're really young yeah that's you're probably like

my fourth yeah yeah it's got her no yeah we're kids it's different but like I definitely think as well it's gendered because I think there's a conversation around best friends and best friends for women and also just their expectations of friendship for women are really different and I've seen people say to us like multiple times we've had people send messages that have been like I feel like there's a pressure on me to have a best friend for example or a group of friends that are girls like I feel like I need to have like my girls, my women. I feel like I'm missing out on being included in this thing

and like there's something wrong with me. And there's definitely a huge pressure and expectation that women need to have this like perfect, pure, wholesome, loving, sisterhood, intimate, like blah, blah, blah. And so much of that is real and amazing. But it's just, it's really horrible when that's not where you're at at the moment yeah and now you feel like you're missing out on something it doesn't mean you're never gonna have it and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It definitely doesn't mean that.

That's just not where you are right now yeah that would be what I would say. Definitely. Yeah the best friend thing. Oh god I can't ask you to say it again. Best friend can be destructive because you put too much pressure on this one person and that's where they get treated unfairly maybe or it's just like oh god i can't ask you to say it again best friend can be destructive because you put too much pressure on this one person and that's why they get treated unfairly maybe or it's just like it's unrealistic i don't know if i agree go on then perfect

i think i do in the way that like yeah of course you cannot be relying on one person like yeah no you yeah you just can't no it's like people that only see their partner it's like you're fucking it yeah like it's just ridiculous see their partner it's like you're a fucking idiot. It's just ridiculous. I think that best friend, then yeah, they can't be reliant, you cannot be reliant on someone for everything but I do think it's kind of back to our thing of holding people to a higher standard. I don't think it needs to be one person like that is absurd but you can expect a lot from people like, of course I don't expect everything from you, but I do hold you to a standard of... I do think I expect a certain level.

There's some sort of commitment. Yeah, there's a commitment in a best friend. Because when that starts slipping with a friend, when you can feel the distance growing and within the things of like, prepare to diamond, we know it, ebbing and flowing. Really mental actually. Do you guys want to be in our friendship? Bizarre. It is normal but I think when you can start to feel that distance going, it often is when that stuff starts to slip and I do think, you know what I mean, it is really painful when you start feeling people that were really held up to that standard dropping down. Yeah but then I also think like,

sometimes fighting that is more painful than it needs to be. Almost like the story around that becomes more hurtful than the reality. Cause almost, you could kind of have like a quiet six weeks where you haven't seen someone that often and not really notice. But that's why best friend is a dangerous label because you wouldn't not see your best friend

in six weeks. You stop putting all these requirements on it. Best friend I think has, there's a level of like maintenance behind it. There is, yeah, you're committed and there's an upkeep. There's some grooming involved. As in like personal grooming, not like, you're not underage grooming.

Idiot me. All right, okay. Wait, what? It's just annoying. No, why? Because I said... I don't think I heard what you said. I said there's some grooming and then I was like not like underage grooming and it's like no one was thinking that you fucking idiot

Why do I even say that? Yeah, of course you can say that. Say whatever you want. I do think the best friend thing and like the, when I think it can be tricky is like when there's a group and the dynamics have kind of shifted or like you and Lucy are known for being the two closest people and then all of a sudden,

Sefi starts getting a bit closer to Lucy and you start thinking, hey, would you mind backing off? That one's mine. It's really tricky actually. Yeah. Like, I do think that is, that's actually a tough position and I know that people will be listening to that being like, yeah, I'm in that now.

Oh my God. Because we get quite a few messages saying things like that. Like, my best friend is suddenly like excluding me from things and I can sense the distance growing. Well, excluding is horrible, yeah. They've got a new, like it friend. It's kind of the plot of Bridesmaids. Like you, your best friend, suddenly you're meeting her group of friends and you're seeing there's someone else here that's like kind of really close to them who's doing everything

kind of better. It's a nightmare. It's kind of La La Land Emma Stone turning up to the audition and there's just like a load of like taller more beautiful ginger girls. Versions of her. Yeah with clean shirts. It's really tough but it also is really universal. It is universal and it's really telling of the thing of like there isn't you don't have to be one person for one person in your friendship and this was something that we spoke about in terms of like when we were having this conversation, dare I bring up

the dumplings once again? But when we were walking up to the dumpling place I said it's funny that we have these people that for example they can like potentially even mistreat us and we wouldn't even notice because they have this kind of shield around them that it's just we just love them so much or they're held on this pedestal or whatever. We don't even notice when they're maybe being a bit of a dick or whatever. and i was like it's funny because these things obviously happen so often in like romantic relationships and it's so easy to quickly be like why are you letting them walk all over you or like why are you letting them mistreat

you blah blah blah. and you were like yeah but that is frustrating because well it is frustrating anyway but also it is frustrating because in a romantic relationship if you've decided that this is your one girlfriend, your one boyfriend, your one person that you're with, with a friend it's like they can mistreat you and then you don't see them for a week, whatever, take some time off, let it cool down, period, whatever, I'm over it, or talk about it, whatever.

And you have multiple of them. But if you're choosing this one person and they keep mistreating you, yeah it is not great. this is why a network is important. they're really helpful. i'm not even going to say they're crucial or important but they are really helpful to have a network of people that, for example, if something goes on in your romantic relationship, if your romantic partner was treating you badly, the advice you're gonna get is leave him blah blah blah, you might be thinking, right, do I wanna choose my one person and

they treat me like that. I don't know if that makes sense. But with a friend it is different because you're allowed to- They don't have to be the only one. Yeah, it's not a monogamous thing. You're allowed to then go and talk to your other friend, get advice from them, blah blah blah. But if you start talking to some other potential romantic partner whilst you're with the romantic

partner, it's not gonna fucking fly. Not how it works. You're allowed to play the field with friendship. You're allowed to get advice. Your loyalty isn't too... Lucy. Even though you have loyalty, there is obviously a hierarchy within friendships. But you are allowed to... But that's okay. yeah and they're constantly changing. you're asked to be in a big group together. i think that's the thing is the hierarchy is there but it's also quite fluid and maybe more fluid than you realise. totally yeah

and that's why best friend i think is so lovely like i love it. yeah i love saying you're my best friend. yeah best friend yeah lovely. but i also think if you don't find it a helpful term and i don't think there should be a pressure around or anything think if you don't find it a helpful term, and I don't think there should be a pressure around it or anything, but if you don't find it helpful, it's really not that deep. I also am a bit of a believer in non-monogamy when it comes to best friends. I feel like even when I was a kid I would be like, I've got multiple bests. Or I would kind of be a bit greedy. But then I don't like, because I always find it weird when people are like my bestie and it's someone that like isn't that. no that's what i mean. i mean like

someone that actually really is. yeah yeah. because i've definitely had it where people have called me their bestie and i'm like oh my god i literally don't know you. well that's yeah. like yeah but i think they're using it casually but almost it's like.. yeah yeah yeah yeah. goodness me i don't.. i like almost say oh god I mean, it's not a term I would use now. That's not really no, I would never think of that. No best friend Do you know what? I mean? It's a weird one. Yeah, I think it maybe does have like a bit of an age thing to it But then also I do like For example, like my sister has someone that I would still refer to. Yeah

even though like they live completely different lives now. Like, yeah, but I think that's why. She's a nurse. She's always listening to us. She loves us. And actually went to Leeds, even though we weren't there, but she got our tickets, which was really, I'm really glad they went to a good time. Oh, and did she go? Yeah, she went. Oh, good. And I would always call, yeah, I would always be like, oh, Liz Lizzie and Emy, they're like best friends. I think probably because it's like a childhood thing, they were just always together throughout my childhood and they always really came as like a double act and I would still sort of refer to them as like, they both could be listening like, can you stop projecting that onto us?

But I would be like, that's like her best friend. even though they live really separate lives and they both have like amazing friendships that each other are not a part of blah blah blah. i just really would be like, yeah they're best friends. it's kinda like her best friend. yeah but i think that's normal. but i think it's because it's continued from childhood almost. like it's got a childhood quality. It does. There's something really sweet about that language. Best friend. Yeah. There's something really sweet about it. Or like at my grandma's funeral, my mum's friend from school, Noddy, was there and I was introducing Noddy to my cousins and I was like, this is Noddy, this is like my mum's like best friend

and I could see Noddy almost like what? Yeah yeah yeah. I don't know how to explain you. yeah well you can't really say this is Noddy this is my mum's friend it's like no no you're more than that Noddy. you're not really getting it yeah. you've been promoted. this is like my mum's best friend. like you don't get what I'm saying. this is like family. this is like my mum's best friend yeah fine. but then it's so weird as well like I don't know. intriguing. it's quite infantilising. yeah there's a there's a real sweetness to it which I love. I don't know. Intriguing. It's quite infantilising. Yeah, there's a real sweetness to it, which I love. I like it actually. Yeah, but you guys are fine.

Oh yeah, go stop saying guys. Yeah, you guys are fine. And like, it's prepared to diamond. Friendships change. Relationships are always coming and going and changing and feeling weird and feeling great and coming closer and pulling away and everything. It's fine. Yeah. Alright. Cool. Stunning. Well I need to get on with my cooking. Yeah go on, you need to go.

It's been a good one. Right well if you don't hear from us, assume the worst. you