Goes Without Saying - the "giver" & the "trauma dump": boundaries for dummies

Episode Date: May 21, 2023

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She's just stifling a yawn. That is not a reflection on how this conversation has just gone. I actually think it was such a nice, it felt like a very fresh conversation, some new takes that we haven't necessarily discussed. We haven't discussed them between us, let alone on the podcast. I've definitely come away with some learnings, I think, that I'm going to take into my own life, my own relationships. This is a lovely one. I mean, as always, if you want to chuck us on in the background, you're more than welcome. But we're going to be chatting about dynamics in relationships, taking on other people's mental well-being as your own responsibility and knowing when to stop giving.

Enjoy. Perfect. Cool. Cool. Here we are again. Here we are again here we are again how are you like what have you been up to how are you i'm good i've been checking wrapping it up which has been really good i said i was the rap god earlier yeah you are talk us through the rap well inspired by my boyfriend because i my boyfriend used to be the rap god but i've usurped him yeah my tyrannical demogorgon. You've taken your rightful place. Yeah, I've overthrown him. I've always known I liked raps, but recently it's all I'm wanting. I think because I also just kind of lost my appetite a little bit.

You know, I had my ups and downs and all I could eat was like chicken nuggets and like, just like, you know, I just got a bit weird with like... Kind of all the good stuff. Yeah, like things were just like gross like you know i just got a bit weird with like kind of all the good stuff yeah like things were just like like gross don't we know it um and i don't know why i'm just finding myself being called towards the rap gods yeah yeah what kind of rap are you getting i'm getting a large white tortilla wrap. Nice. A large white tortilla.

Is it one of the ones that kind of, they kind of separate? Do you know what I mean? It's almost quite flowery. No. Not one of those. Well, I want it to hold up. I don't want shit dropping all over me. Do you know what I mean?

Well, this is why I would never go for the white wrap. What would you go for? I would go for the seeded, like, brown kind of wrap. Ah! I know. I know. Oh, my. But that's what I would do. what would you go for i would go for the seeded like brown kind of wrap oh i know i know but that's what i would do i'm i'm i am pretty anti white bread you're a health nut i just i do not like i just don't like bread unless everyone knows that about you that's got like nuts in essentially that's absolutely absurd i know that's probably the most problematic

thing i've ever said on the podcast i know honestly i will i obviously will eat a white bread like i'll have like a sourdough bread no no no no no no like a white slice of bread i would not eat no doughy white buttery bread with like tesco value ham slices delicious i i completely get it i actually want that right now actually it depends what the vibe is sweet white bread oh god no i don't really like sweet things that much i would always go for a brown um kind of seedy bread every time and even to a woman i'd take that to the wrap 100 i am you would take it to the wrap or even in primary school you'd be having a seeded situation no maybe not in primary school i think i would have wanted you would have like a white bread well no i probably was having i didn't really have sandwiches that much i would

have like sort of um literally i would have or like um sort of macaroni cheese sort of thing like okay that's young that sort of thing i'd have it i mean dal is yummy as well it's just but it is so it's so vegetarian like hippie no 100 it would be um but i was always jealous at school of you know the bread that is supposed to be like crustless bread yes but like so isn't it's just like they've bleached the crust sort of thing do you think is that what they've done they've bleached it they've whitewashed the crust i don't know i always thought that as a kid i haven't seen that in a while but i was like but there is a crust but surely they will be a bit crusty the edges it's just a white crust that's

what i always wanted because it was like oh it's crustless bread did you ever have the thing of like crusts for people with curly hair yeah yeah And what other shit did they used to say to us? Carrots make your eyesight good. Yeah. I always used to think that was... My grandma just used to prank me so much. Like, I used to be like... Up until, like, a few years ago,

I used to be like, God, my grandma just fucking loves crusts of bread. Like, she loves the crust. She loves it, loves it, loves it. And I only just realized a few years ago that she's quite indifferent towards crust but we always used to let leave the crust on our plate and then we'd be like grandma she'd look as if she was going to take them and we shovel them down our throats because we'd be like haha you didn't get your crust but obviously she

didn't give a shit about the crust why would she want our monkey old crust she was just trying to get us to eat our crust reverse psychology to the kids i've always grown up thinking god my grandma just loves crust and i've only just realized like god she doesn't love crust that was a prank oh it's funny those things you realize like after like whatever has happened blah blah you're a kid you're a kid and then suddenly you're an adult and you can see everything you have no eyes some of it is like oh that eyes on it. Some of it is like, oh, that was traumatic abuse. And some of it is like, oh, you weren't actually in love with crust. Who would be?

Who would want all, like, sort of touched crusts? No, but off some kid's plates. Yeah, I mean. Like, we've just eaten, like, a Marmite sandwich and we're like, Grandma, here are your crusts. It's like, why would she want that great sense of humor you thought you were gonna get my crust seem mischievous yeah honestly um what we're talking about today we're talking about kind of I don't really know how to explain it really kind of how in dynamics friendships or relationships there's always a giver and there's

always a fixer oh you think no i don't really think but what's going on with us then who's a giver who's a fixer who's a what no well i don't know if there is a giver and a fixer there's often a taker also a giver and a fixer no they're not the opposite they're the same thing there's just a taker yeah basically we're talking about um sort of dynamics of giving and taking and things like that in relationships and i think like knowing when to step back when someone's just draining your energy and like knowing when it's time to go if you will yeah i remember i believe this was in the only way is essex when this was coming out i'm talking about reality shows oh I am I absolutely am at the moment I won't be in like a week who knows what's going on but I haven't watched TOWIE

since like I used to be obsessed with it back in the day but I remember always I was more obsessed with TOWIE than Made in Chelsea I think back in the day they used to be on at the same time maybe you could give us a little bit of a rundown if we don't know what they are um well a last not last episode but the episode before i gave a rundown a beautiful rundown of maiden chelsea taui's just the same thing but with people from essex not from chelsea literally the same thing so just listen to that it's the same thing just with a different um type of person really yeah yeah um there was a scene i believe this was in the only ways essex the only way is essex is taui as well it's an acronym it's a very clever um very intelligent see what you did there yes it was very clever of them to do that

um um there was a scene where someone i don't know who it was said there's in a relationship there's always a radiator and a drain and someone was being like a radiator what do you mean a radiator because it was a bit of confusion about the fact that a radiator yes we need to explain it to the viewer the producers said it was definitely a bit explain it to me like i'm five yeah it was definitely a bit confusing but i did start thinking about it when i was about 14 watching that there's always a radiator and a drain in every relationship is that which i don't think there is but i did remember thinking god you want to be the radiator you want to be radiating definitely giving fixing you don't want to be draining warming you do not want to be the drain

do you think okay so spoiler alert you've just said you don't think there is always necessarily a drain in a radiator and a giver and a taker and all of this but i can imagine your response i think we're both under the impression that they're not necessarily fixed labels if they were to be given you could be a giver one day and a taker the next 100 the amount of times i've been like god i've just drained you sorry like me the amount of times i've been like god sorry i've just defo drained you i mean when you're trauma dumping on someone essentially you kind of are draining them but i don't feel drained on you sorry no and i know it's funny because i was gonna say to you the

other day about the concept even of trauma dumping quote unquote and just how we maybe feel about that in general as a phrase there's nuance to it as there is with with all things sure i think it's an easy way out of saying to someone oh you just trauma dumped when actually they just like were open and spoken about up to you they spoke about something that was traumatizing i do think it can be like a almost a bit of an excuse i guess like makes it a bit easier for people to kind of lean into the idea of like oh god they they kind of took up the space they like owned their narrative they were honest they were open they were vulnerable they shared something with me it's a little bit yeah in my opinion yeah just because i think for a lot of yeah that's a good way of putting it victim blaming

because i think there are definitely some people who are assholes and there are definitely some people who are like weird narcissists whatever they just like dominate the space in a negative way they don't give a shit about anyone else like whatever blah blah blah yeah there are some weird evil people out there however i do think largely when someone has decided to be open with somebody else about the things that they've gone through or things that are like really raw and personal to them to have that to call it a dump to call it a dump you just don't it is bizarre to me actually because i agree do you know what i mean it's a bit almost the most inhumane thing you could ever say it's a real throw it back in their face kind of moment it's quite evil but then it is evil but also have you not also been in that

environment and i know you have because i've been in the environment with you where you just feel like you have been drained and almost it what like it's not necessarily oh i'm so drained by their vulnerability it's not that but it's like god you came into the space and you just went blah with like all of this shit with no um understanding of other people's like triggers and shit that they've been through and life stories which is like here's all my fucking shit and now i'm gonna like go unpack that kind of at you yes however yeah i think for me personally i feel like the responsibility in a situation like that someone is coming in with real genuine vulnerability however i am capable of responding in that moment it's my responsibility to definitely like be kind i think that would

come naturally to most of us and i think for most of us here we wouldn't have a problem responding to that with kindness and being open and um being supportive and all of those things i don't have an issue with that if i have an issue with potentially feeling like i am giving so much and i have nothing left to give i do feel like it's my responsibility to manage that in the situation and either see myself out or kind of encourage us to move the situation into a slightly different space do you know what i mean just kind of shake things up make sure we're both feeling good because i think if someone is being really raw and open with you i'm trusting you a lot in that moment you can really scar them if you

dismiss them i think as well it's just not a nice interaction to have even if you don't say it to their face like if you think you're putting on a nice show for them and then you run off back to your friends and say god sarah just trauma dumped all over me jesus christ well that's out of order it is it is out of order but i do think in that situation for me personally, it's my responsibility to manage the expectations of what I can give to that person who is being vulnerable with me. I do have a tendency to want to give too much and like to not find that boundary soon enough

until I am drained empty. But I think that's my problem. Well, I don't know if it is because i agree like i know i i agree like i definitely think there's a tendency just to be dumped on of just like i think because i think it's so important that people um talk about their shit and like there's an open kind of environment for people especially people that i'm close to to like yeah tell me their insides and like unpack it i do think like it is really hard to stop that when you're like getting when you can feel yourself like i i've

literally got nothing left like i have been in conversations like that where i've been like i literally don't have any more advice like every scrap of advice i could possibly give you on this i've given you it's five times over like i've got i've literally not got another bit of insight or bit of um energy to give this but i think that i can only really say that to people i'm super close with i think if i was in an environment where someone wanted to really rehash and rehash and rehash like the same event over and over and over again, and I had nothing more to give on that, it would be really hard to be like, I'm sorry, but you've got to stop.

Like, I don't know. I think it's just I would just allow them just to dump, dump, dump. I don't know if I'm sorry. Can you say I'm sorry you've got to stop no you absolutely can't that's what i would say to mike no that's like to my family i'd be like i'm sorry shut the hell up without saying yes he's not turning up at anyone's door and being like can you not but more so like no you can't i think we can make an effort to before we go go into situations, be like, I think actually what helps as well, when I've been in situations where I've been in despair, in the pits, as they say,

I will say to like people around me, or I like when the people around me say to me, sort of, what do I want from them? How can they make me feel better in this moment? How can they support me? Can they support me? What would that look look like rather than kind of the other person coming in with for example like you're looking for just some kind of empathy some sympathy some support some kind of agreement on like yeah just some agreement of like yeah that was out of order whatever yeah you want to be hyped up whatever but the other person comes in with all you need to do is this this and this yeah starts trying to resolve the problems and give you solutions which is probably well intended but maybe not what you needed in that moment or it

could be the other way you could be going to them for support and they say the wrong thing whatever blah blah blah i think i always find that really helpful when i feel like that's the way that the conversation is going to say to someone like what do you want yeah what do you want like do you feel like you need advice or you know you probably just need someone to say god this sounds really hard like this sounds fucking shit like i'm here for you like i hear you sort of thing i think that's such a good idea like because i definitely feel like whenever i'm in that kind of situation, I think I can try, I have a tendency to try and be a fixer, which I really think is sometimes useful, but sometimes really useless.

Like, I went a lot of time, a lot of the time people just come to because they want to like speak about things they already know what they're going to do. They already know their decision in the back of their head. They just want to talk about it in general and not really come to some kind of conclusion but i'm always in that situation like i think almost um to make myself feel better just trying to like right well what can you do about it like what what are the next steps like what what can we do right now like there's no point talking about it because it's not productive what can we do right now like well there's nothing you can do make yourself feel better in what situation like like when you say like i think i mostly go towards like

being the fixer because it'll probably just make me feel better i think it's like i want it i want there to be like a productive outcome of it and i think it's almost like it will make me feel helpful which is like when when i can see someone is really powerless and when it's like quite upsetting when it's someone that you really care about who is going for a shit situation and maybe there is nothing to be done about it and maybe it's just like that is just objectively shit and basically the outcome is they've got to feel a lot of pain that's horrible yeah and what i want to do is be like well maybe if we just like go on holiday and you know like we can just like kill that person you know we can just do that you can just like like all you've got to do is just block them and it's like well that really solves nothing like i almost think i try and like find easy

little answer yeah answers which actually aren't answers so i think that's what i mean by trying to make myself feel better like yeah i try and do something that will feel kind of like oh it's all fine now but it's like it's actually just not like sometimes things just aren't and people don't really want um to do anything you don't want active space to be kind of tackling the problem i think most of the time when like you go to friends for me personally i if i'm going to someone for advice i think i quite knowingly set up the conversation as what would you do in this situation or what do you think of this like this is what i'm dealing with like i'm thinking i'm going to do this this and this like is that making sense do you think when i go to someone for advice it's i think it's actually quite um clear do you think? When I go to someone for advice, it's, I think it's actually quite clear. Do you

know what I mean? Like almost, I think when I'm asking people for advice, I really go in and say, I need, can I, can I get some advice? Can I get some help? Versus like, if I'm really like in, as I say, the pits, in the depths of hell, kind of crying my eyes out. Sometimes my boyfriend even would be like, oh, I just hate it. Like, I like i feel so helpless like i want to be able to help you and make you feel better sort of thing yeah but it's so hard and i've been like the thing is all you have to do in that moment to make me feel better is just give me a hug just be there just literally just say it's gonna be okay i think we'll be okay sort of what if it all works out what if it all works out is all i need you to say i just need i just need a cuddle i just need yeah just need you yeah i just need someone around i i will problem solve

when i'm ready sort of thing yeah well to be honest a lot of i don't know i think this is something i'm coming to kind of later in life but some things oh you're so late in life in my 26 years guys i'm coming to this later in life so late in life in my 26 years guys i'm going to later in so late in life bloody hell what time do we call this late in life later in life um or i'm coming to this i've come to this in the last year six months maybe there are some issues that will never be solved and like that is sometimes a painful thing yes because it's like i the instinct i think is a human impulse to be like oh let's fucking mathematical equation this out like let's almost coming from the least mathematical person but it's like let's like get the steps in order

so that in six months time this will not be an. But there are some things I think in my life and like in my experiences that I've seen be worked around every fucking way where all the best minds that I know have come together and tried to work this fucking out. And we can't fucking figure something out. Like some things will never get better and will never have an answer. And I actually think there is some peace in that the things that are not fixable when you're constantly trying and trying and like pouring your whole soul into trying to like make something put a what is it a square peg in a round hole or whatever it is yeah um some things never work like that and i do think i've actually found some level of peace in being like that one issue that i have in my life or that one thing will

never be fixed fixed there is no fucking answer and that kind of is okay then because then it's just acceptance exactly i would start to say it's kind of moving towards kind of once you know that for example like you said this situation is never going to be quote-unquote fixed the idea of working towards acceptance of that rather than working towards a solution yeah is just as difficult but actually probably more beneficial for us and like our own kind of minds and our own brains and just your own health in the long run yeah like the level of um discomfort and like restlessness in trying to continually fix a problem a quote-unquote problem i mean it's really painful and exhausting yes also i think it's just no go maybe go i think it's just acceptance was the end of that i agree i feel like

it kind of fits into something we've spoken about before kind of the whole batgirl thing and just the idea of like even this podcast and i think pockets of society pockets of the internet with the idea of um self-development and like growth and healing and learning and evolving and thriving and all of these things that we want to do, sometimes can have you stuck in this cycle of... I didn't... Wendy's Small Frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment. And not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh Canadian dairy. It's also refreshingly cheap.

Just 99 cents until July 14th. It's a treat for you and your wallet. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. It's so gay. These rams are gay. I'm got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay.

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And we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Do that good enough. I didn't get up and do that good enough i didn't um that girl hard enough i didn't blah blah blah i didn't heal right enough like instead of ways that instead of ways to improve your life it ends up being like we've said this before new ways to punish yourself and find new things to like hold against yourself and that constant state of trying to fix things in your life

will ensure 100 you will never be happy you will never ever be happy if you're constantly meticulously hyper vigilant and self-critical towards your own, what you see as shortcomings, but it's probably just the reality of your human existence on this planet. Do you not think that is quite a crazy thought? Like as much as it's so simple, oh damn it, my lip balm just rolled away from me, like it's my little tin of vaseline i'm sorry unless you need it and just roll under my bed brilliant damn um yeah no i think that has been something that i found quite great later in life in my old age of 26 yeah like it does feel like something that you've been told your whole life to like fix your problems and like work hard on these things and actually to be like no i i can't like yeah or like yeah i i foresee

the future of what that will be working and working and working going around these things that i know won't work because we've tried everything to try and make that work it will just lead to misery and pain down that road me yeah yeah just i could spend my life focusing on this thing or i could accept that things are a mess in the way they are and just like move forward with that mess that i will carry that mess forever yes yeah and it's almost i'm comfortable with that mess i don't feel the need to tidy up um or i'm semi-comfortable with that mess i don't feel the need to kind of like brush it all under the rug and tidy it up like it's just like that will only cause a nightmare more stress yeah yeah and as well like the idea of fixing and even sometimes um what's kind of masked as like just bettering or like optimizing or whatever

is wrapped up in so much shame like a lot of the things that we feel like we need to fix about ourselves our relationships our own lives our fucking um behaviors our bodies everything is just wrapped up in the shame and the idea that we have been sold that we're not inherently good enough valuable in any way yeah it's just always a project yes always a project always a work in progress which there's some yeah really there's something really liberating about that i think of like accepting that you are imperfect and you are flawed and you are trying and you know you you are making an effort to maybe enjoy your life more or you know just generally be better i think generally trying to be better with kindness is one thing yeah and the other thing to entirely change yourself exactly

is like trying to hate yourself into a new person yeah it's not gonna happen you'll hate yourself into a new person a more miserable person yeah no it doesn't work i think that's a real distinction do you feel like you slip into a habit in relationships of like falling into a certain kind of dynamic or role or is there a certain way that you want the people in your life to be perceiving you oh that is all isn't it that didn't even get a can i ask you a question but it really needed one can i ask you a question how but it really needed one. Can I ask you a question? How do you want people in your life to perceive you? What kind of hole do you keep falling into of trying to be this X, Y and Z person?

The court jester. The court jester. There she is. I think that's it. I kind of sing for the king's supper. Like almost like the king is sad and it's like, let's make him laugh. Tell the jokes, clown. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's that. I think the role I take in dynamics often can be, I think I am the person that people go to when they're feeling shit.

Or not even maybe when they're feeling shit, but when they want to feel better. I think I might be the person people often would go to because i will bend over backwards to make you laugh that's nice i think that i think that's how i fit in my friends could be like you literally are not funny like shut the fuck up who's gonna say you're not funny they're not a real friend i agree but also like i do think that is a position i always put myself in that if someone is crying and feeling terrible um i obviously want them to feel heard and i want them to like you know get it all out yeah i think the thing that i kind of specialize in is the moment after the cry when maybe they're like ready to like oh you know they feel wide cracked open it's like let's hit them with a

laugh and i think i get people laughing yeah which i don't even know is help whether that's helpful but i think that's what i yeah um routinely do do you remember there was a conversation i'm sure this conversation happened on the podcast where you were talking about maybe the idea that you potentially like not minimize yourself but maybe play yourself in a certain way that undermines i don't know like your worth or intelligence or something by i don't know what this conversation was but probably do you remember you were like i just go in and i like try and be kind of silly goofy and yeah i feel like i get a bit almost like you don't necessarily make or you're not i wouldn't say what i know of you is you're not the biggest fan on self-deprecating jokes no but i think the energy of being super

funny and light-hearted and kind of ditzy dopey funny jovial can come off as self-deprecating yeah i i really hope i'm not self-deprecating because i really i don't think you are at all dislike uh that sense of you i really wouldn't want to put myself in that camp because i find it um sad i don't think there's any um humor in that i just think it's silly but like because i think it's i think it it says a lot it's a really sad thing to be doing but also i think i've trained myself out of that as many people have like you're just i think especially in england britain you are raised with that kind of fucking bullshit humor that's just very cruel um but like cruel towards yourself yeah yeah um but yeah no i do think i am someone that does that and i think i'm also thinking of a conversation that we had recently about ed sheeran's documentary which if anyone has seen i've only actually seen two episodes because i don't have disney plus

and i watched it no one thought we were gonna talk about that ed sheeran's documentary who did we keep you on your toes guys i didn't think we were gonna talk about that no but i've only watched two apps you've finished it i believe finished it. Because you recommended it to me. When you recommend things, I take it seriously. Unlike all the things I've recommended to you. No, I've taken it so seriously. Last night I was trying so hard to watch the Brookshilds, but it's also on Disney+. It's so amazing. I can't watch it.

I need to fucking get Disney+. I'm Brookshilds' number one fan. And I know I'm going to be her number two soon. Yeah, you will. Just give me time to know who she is and I'll be her number two fan yeah you will just give me time to like know who she is and i'll be it's so i just love it but anyway yeah i've when i watched the trailer i literally watched the trailer and i was like i'm in brooke yeah i love you i love you bro i'm yours yeah and i watched drew barrymore kind of sit on her lap and i'm yeah as usual yeah as usual drew yeah

put her on the goes out saying guest list as well jerry barrymore love love it's kind of she needs to be sat on the microphone or nothing else yeah we all need to be just doing a group whilst we record yes yeah love her um ed sheeran's documentary yes which is called a great name i thought oh the summer of it all yes love that for him i don't really know anything about ed sheeran but i know that his albums are like times multiply yes subtract yes they're all i'm assuming were you into the sbtv days absolutely not don't really know what that is why am i not surprised don't know really what that is well that's that was kind of the main thing that I was really loving. Is that what his friend was? Yeah, Jamal Edwards. Really sad, yeah.

Which was so shocking when he died so young. I didn't know anything about this. The first I heard of it was this documentary. That's crazy. It was just such a, i think like a real cult moment for probably people who are about our age in that kind of world um yeah i don't know but i i like the way that the documentary kind of framed that relationship between them as kind of like yeah i don't know i like seeing men get all emotional and i love seeing men get emotional yeah me too let them love it let them i love seeing anyone get emotional yeah yeah but like yeah i thought i thought ed came off really well i have no i

really had no thoughts on him but i actually have come away really liking his vibe i mean that's nice yeah but the point the point that i was gonna say is we were discussing this the other day are they married yeah i think so i think they are i don't want to call someone his wife unknowingly yes and do that wrong because i would hate that flip if i were cherry her name is the most beautiful name i've ever heard in my life cherry seaborn stunning can we take a moment that is um a game of thrones um sort of princess she's from the iron islands no she's not from the fucking iron islands no iron islands makes it rude i think she's from like volantis cherry seaborne no she's not

she's actually from like the iron islands makes her a bit grim though i know but it's funny that you say so rude because do you remember we said someone else is from the Iron Islands? Yeah, but that was a bit rude of us, I think. That was rude. Iron Islands is the worst thing you could be in that world, in Game of Thrones. It's really, what's that word that they kind of use in like Pride and Prejudice, like kind of marshes. Yeah, yeah, no no it's right you do

not want to say you're from the iron islands trench foot is that a thing yeah it gives that vibe anyway she's not from the iron islands i take it back no she's from like beautiful high garden by the way when we said that about someone we weren't actually being rude it was just no in hindsight it was like what why did we say they're from the iron islands that's crazy because because they had that kind of um gruff brutish yes there's like a ruthlessness to this person there is yes a um what's it called in divergent dauntless dauntless she was also dauntless which kind of explains explains the vibe of what was going on there yeah and dauntless is iron islands yeah now we're getting public information i just don't want anyone to think so niche now we were

calling someone dauntless in isle islands behind their back no it was like a it was a it was a communal joke you want to be dauntless fucking hell definitely tris prior survival of the fittest tobias eaton getting too niche now yeah that's go there anyway cherry seaborn who is ed sheeran's i believe wife yes it's funny that going back to what's relevant is cherry cherry that's us getting back on track yeah back on track is cherry seaborn my beautiful name of all time she features in the documentary and i didn't know this about ed sheeran's life either but she was i didn't know about ed sheeran's life but she was diagnosed because it's all through a man's eyes yeah his wife cherry seaborn was diagnosed with cancer whilst she was pregnant must have been absolutely

traumatic experience horrific goes without saying she is then speaking about it in the documentary and they're doing this like painting thing i don't know what they're doing they're like painting these huge canvases giving like a rec room vibe but i guess it's just them literally just painting they're just painting these big canvases having fun yeah exactly like that's what the rich do they just like the dream yeah they just put on like a little kind of quarantine suit and like and then throw paint at all and be like we're artists stunning crying man and the interviewer is saying like so do you want to talk about your experience with having cancer whilst

being pregnant and she i believe the phrase she says like well yeah it was just like a bit of a shitter um that was like really shit blah blah blah and kind of makes like this big joke of it and calling it a shitter i believe is the thing that she said which is just so like it was jokey and just kind of like bit of a bummer like if anyone doesn't it was gutting yeah just like oh like that was a bit rough like sort of thing and ed sheeran kind of stops her and is like ed sheeran full title ed sheeran yeah stops cherry seaborne and he's kind it looks like he's kind of crying or something and he's like why are you underplaying this like this was horrific and i believe it's still ongoing at that point when they filmed that yeah like it's not just a shitter it's like completely traumatizing like this is horrendous yeah and i really saw myself in cherry seaborne so much because it was

like that honestly is it exactly what i would do like i really think something like that i would just be like yeah bit of a shitter and we were talking about this and i was like god i bet everyone sees themselves in her so much and you were like god i don't see that for you no i don't see it for me i see it for you and actually funny like i was gonna say then after i remember when we had that conversation i had said it reminded me cut to something else now kind of um if you're piecing together almost a crime scene on a whiteboard of all the references that sephie and wing make pull back a few months ago we were talking about maisie williams it was something that maisie williams had said on steven bartlett talk about iron islands talk about iron islands jesus yeah she is dauntless she's so dauntless

she's so dauntless um she had said that basically what had helped her through um i guess like her childhood abuse situation childhood trauma was really just an adult asking the right questions and i thought that was quite true to the situation with ed and cherry ed sheeran and cherry seaborne because in that moment the documentary easily could have been this tiny scene where cherry's saying yeah you know i was diagnosed with cancer bit of a shitter like it's been a rough year but whatever sort of thing but it wasn't because ed stepped in and said almost like i can't let you do this sort of thing and gave her the opportunity and like really opened up that space and kind of encouraged her kind of gave her permission to take up the space that she needed and actually and not be casual and not be casual and i think i see myself in ed in that moment of being like let's give the space actually to this situation it's cherry and ed not

stepping away it's remy and emil cherry and ed remy and emil yeah have we spoken about that surely we have if we haven't just i'm sure just don't worry about it we'll get into it another time um would you have any advice for someone who's feeling like they can't be there for someone in the way that they want to anyone who cares about someone and is feeling a bit frustrated because they don't know how to support them or how to prioritize their own needs i would say before you even think about supporting someone else this is something that you say all the time and weirdly my dad said it doesn't know that you always say it's my dad said it like last week i was like god is this like why is everyone fucking telling me it's obviously what you need to hear genuinely these two have

never fucking spoken and they're both telling me the same place actually but it was like but he doesn't always call when i'm calling you yeah he does always call when so i do think me and your dad are a bit connected you've never seen us in the same room yeah but he told me last week and you always say this the thing on planes where they say put on your own mask before you put on your child's mask or whatever is like put on your own sort of oxygen mask before you put on the person next to you's mask yeah and i think that is the most amazing advice that before you start trying to scrabble around to help all these people because to be honest every person needs help so if you have like a fixing habit i mean form a queue every person doesn't yeah in

this world has like a load of issues that need quite quick fixing yeah put on your own mask before you try and put on their masks like just take a moment to be like can i help why do i want to help like what can i do like what is actually reasonable what do i think they need and then i would go in and ask them what do you need beautiful and i think give yourself permission to do what you can and know when to step away and yeah i think also like i don't know i'm just go on well i was just gonna say like be proud of yourself maybe for like trying to be a bit nice like i don't get super cringe and out but i do feel like it's nice to care about people and i do feel like our i don't know if it's you know in part i guess the socialization of like british culture what we were talking about not a thing oxymoron british culture yeah um you mean stolen goods yeah um and also as young women i think the

vulnerability of like letting someone know that you're there for them can be quite hard especially when you haven't necessarily set up that rapport like seth for you and i have a very distinct way of talking to each other it's very much like we're in marriage counseling that we're very open we're to the point like it's very caring it's supportive everyday congratulations so proud of you happy few flower bouquet emoji a bit much a bit much and a little much and that's fair enough a little much and that is fair enough right yeah however something i think like if you can slowly make an effort is almost trying to not be embarrassed by saying to people like what do you need from me because i think when you're not using that kind of language we're doing like faces at each other whilst we're recording like really

excited like i just started giggling sorry you were in the middle of an amazing thing i just started giggling my nut off i think when you don't have that rapport naturally with people it's kind of hard to like ditch the embarrassment around talking like that and being like kind of open and like really showing up for them in that way it's almost a bit cringe and i think it feels a little bit embarrassing and i don't know if i'm sure lots of people like i can imagine the americans being like what you lot are insane like insane but like i can imagine you guys are a little much yeah you guys are just silly like come on like you these are your friends you obviously love each other like you can obviously um show your support sort of thing but i've definitely

noticed a change in the way that me and my friends and me and my loved ones have like been speaking to each other over the past few years in terms of like I'll say to my friends like I'm gonna check in on you you know now and then I'll text them yeah I'm just thinking of you just sending you some flower emojis I'm just sending you you know some love like is there anything you want me to do is there anything you don't want me to mention like if you feel a certain way like let me know like i'm gonna do this like just being incredibly open about it in my world has been very very helpful so definitely yeah 100 i think that's thing is that that is so one of the things that that

feels so appropriate with me and you for example or like there are certain dynamics where i could do that but so many people be like what what are you doing like so many people don't want that i think well i think they do but there's so much shame around it i think the people in my life like they need to be asked the right questions they need the permission and the space which i think as well is maybe why people like podcasts because you don't even have to say anything but you can kind of just turn up and have two people maybe explain to you something that just grazes over something that you've previously felt i think that is exactly why people like podcasts yeah and i think that's why i like them yeah you need to be given the opportunity to be validated and sometimes the

instinct and I can imagine for some of our friends is to be like no like it's fine whatever blah blah blah but I think when I know someone's going through something I have no shame in saying to them like look I feel like this is harder than you're letting on and I just want you to know I'm here for you I'm thinking of you all day every day i care about you i want you to be happy like let's do this whatever blah blah blah yeah and even if they're like god it's a little much like leave me alone yeah but also like i think showing you're there is always more important than being embarrassed to show up because you feel a bit awkward and then they always remember that you didn't say anything which is the worst yes god yes yes that's bad yeah i think just be be kind guys you know that you know what

you know what your friends like yes this has been a nice one thank you so much did you like this one i did yeah i really did i really did It felt very soft and nice and everything. Love it. Felt a bit fresh. Yeah, a bit different. A little bit. All right. Cool.

Well, if you don't hear from us, assume the worst. Stunning. We'll see you next time.