Goes Without Saying - toxic masculinity: just say you hate women and go

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

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Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying. You're listening to Goes Without Saying with Sefi and Wing. I'm Wing. And I'm Sefi. I honestly think this is a great episode for the girls and the gays who are looking to get like a little bit riled up here's some hashtag relatable content about the patriarchy what it's like interacting with the everyday straight white male um lessons

tips life hacks on how to get by in this disgusting patriarchy that we call home enjoy okay take one take one um hey hey how's it going hey again oh you've literally broken up straight away you just went should we just let's just start again ready hey how's it going we're having some technical difficulties here but we're all good we're all good we're all good um i'm doing good this was this is like 10 minutes well about half an hour after we recorded the last one so still the same still good lots has changed i'm sure a lot so much to fill everyone in i've got a new cup of tea nice have you got a drink yeah i've got a little you know what i'm sure a lot so much to fill everyone in i've got a new cup of tea nice have you got a drink yeah i've got a little you know what i'm switching over i was on a coke zero i was living my coke

zero life for a while now i'm on pepsi max so interesting great way to get everyone really um hooked at the beginning yeah i think so do you know a fun fact though? Because I famously don't like fizzy drinks or never have liked fizzy drinks. I couldn't tell you the difference between Coke and Pepsi. If I tried them, I would not know the difference. You would just hate them both. Yeah, I'd think they're both rank, but like I wouldn't know the difference. And that usually is quite shocking to people. It would be shocking to me if I didn't know everything about you. If I didn't know you inside out now it just makes perfect sense yeah but that's a little um um fun fact no it is a fun fact it's the funnest fact it's a great way to start i also just to carry on um i'm gonna keep speaking about you

i was thinking so this episode is gonna be kind of just about boys, boys, boys, boys will be boys vibes. Yeah. Kind of off the back of what you said a couple of episodes ago now, when we were talking about if there's a unifying experience of quote unquote being a girl. And you were talking about how that experience is to be objectified, really going in with the hard hitters at the beginning. We really are. I remember, I listened to that episode on the train the other day and i thought it would be so embarrassing if someone saw me listening to this your own podcast on the train so i wouldn't be surprised now that i know everything about you it makes so much sense i wouldn't be surprised yeah um but yeah when you said that you can hear in the episode i'm i think

audibly quite shocked um and it's had me reeling a little bit and i've been thinking recently and i know we've had this conversation before i'm sure and it's kind of a conversation that i always used to like roll my eyes out a little bit and just thought it was a bit like i don't know i just thought it was a bit of a like non-issue or just a bit like i don't care kind of the idea the age-old question inherently problematic question i think of can boys and girls be friends or it's a great question what i actually think in my lived experiences can i as a girl be friends with boys who are straight and see me as a potential opportunity yeah you just always be a woman and i used to always be like that question is so reductive and juvenile and misses the point and it's insulting and it's um it's kind of homophobic it's like inherently heteronormative

and it's really like reductive and all of these things but then after we had that conversation and you had said um so beautifully and so poetically that you felt like your lived experience as a woman unified you with other women in the idea of how it feels to be objectified i started thinking about that age-old question that i hate so much because i had always felt like of course you can but then i kind of was having a bit of a sad realization i don't know why i've never really paid much thought to this before but i was really thinking like i've had some friendships with boys in my time and every single time you have that well I've had that disappointing thing where you're viewing another human being as a friend and they're

viewing you as a sexual object they're viewing you as someone that they are gonna try and have sex with or just like the option is there like I think it's even if they're not actively pursuing it I think it's always in the back of the head if you offered it up they'd go for it yeah it's almost like what would happen if i think that's also been one of the horrifying things because i have some friendships with men that i consider some of my best friends but then you do start thinking if we were in a club and i tried to kiss you i think you're not saying no no they're hoping that you do it and i think as well the thing that was really kind of getting me down this is just kind of on a monday afternoon just minding my own business and torturing myself

with the realizations of living in a patriarchy but i was kind of reflecting on all of these relationships that i've had with people that i've really liked and respected as human beings and got along with and had funny moments with and like shared memories and put trust in and honestly every single time from my childhood experiences to now every single time i've had a platonic relationship with a straight man they have prioritized the chance of having sex with me over our relationship and our friendship and actually betrayed my trust in that way 100 yeah and it is such a kick in the teeth and i almost i do think there is i don't know i don't love like the sweeping thing of being like oh every straight man that i've been friends with or every straight

boy i've been yeah he's trying to fuck everyone like blah blah blah tell them all with the same brush who cares i would like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but it was the first time that i for some reason had never really had this thought before but it was the first time that I really sat down and kind of like went through like a list of people yeah and was like god the common denominator between you all beyond me was that you actually like didn't really value me as a human being well do you know what there's also I have had this conversation with men before and where they have like mentioned all their friends and i was like but you've had sex with all of those women and then they were like yeah but you can have sex with your friends and i was saying i don't have sex with my friends like if you're my friend

if i count through my list of friends coincidentally i haven't had sex with any of them they're my friends like but i think it's funny when i talk to men and they list their friends it's like you've slept with like 70 of these people i think it's a perk at least in my experience it seems to be like they understand that a perk of like getting close to you and getting to know you is to also have access to your body yeah and you just thought you were getting a new mate someone you could trust no it's really sad i was really actually like feeling a bit glam over it because i was like it's just it's just a horrible moment it's kind of kind of emblematic of lots of situations where you're in some sort of relationship

or you're having some sort of connection with someone and your feeling is not reciprocated it's not being reciprocated in the same way like the feeling isn't mutual like you for example i would say you and i have quite a mutual shared relationship like yeah i think we feel the same way about most things we made this baby together yeah exactly we're co-parenting this podcast like we are coming in and we're reciprocating i think the energy 100 but i do find that when there's a gendered element to my i have found personally when there's a gendered aspect to my relationships and my friendships specifically with straight boys um and i'm saying boys because i was a bit younger like i do think calling them boys almost like infantilizes them and like excuses the bad behavior yeah yeah but it's like

you're actually you're a badly behaved man i'm not gonna call you a boy just so you can get away with it you're a badly behaved man but looking back a lot of those relationships were not being reciprocated in the same way because you're being viewed as the potential of someone to have sex with also they're willing to risk it all yeah yeah the chance but i don't think they see it as a risk because i think because they don't care to lose your friendship to be friends with someone after having sex with them but then when i actually look around and i see um for example some of like for example my friends that are guys that have slept with a lot of the the female friends that i have um i would see the understanding of them having sex would be so different from the girl's

perspective and the boy's perspective like yeah from his perspective i'm not talking about anyone in particular if you think i'm talking about you you're just literally wrong it's purely coincidence you're just self-obsessed yeah it's not about you um so no one texts me and saying i think was that about how you're talking about me yeah it wasn't it was about fucking suzy yeah it's always suzy um and how the girl often would view that's the thing is almost like oh so now we're moving beyond friends and maybe we're gonna go on a date maybe he's gonna text me i've been in these conversations many times throughout my entire life where it's like okay now now that we've slept together oh my god like what do you think we are what do we think we are and almost like this is so generalized as well but like of course from the guy's perspective i speak to them and it's like oh we're mates he's done that with a

lot of his friends yeah because that's what that having sex with your friends is one of the things you do with your friends which i do think is hugely problematic because i don't think that they are viewing it as oh i'm risking my risking my friendship. I think they're thinking, that's how I view women, really. And that's what I do with women. And these women are my friends. So I have sex with them. You know what I especially as well don't like

is the air of, and this is something we've spoken about recently, actually, with people in our lives to date. Currently, this is like topical. This is fresh. Yeah, hot of the press. Of a sense of entitlement that comes with a boy or a man who feels like they've gotten close enough with you to have some sort of say or ownership over you and like who you end up with whose bed you get into this is hot off the

hot of the press but i'm getting a bit annoying i'm gonna say some things without divulging too much my personal life okay um but yeah no i definitely think there comes some kind of possession and ownership from from men i definitely think that i've experienced men that i'm close to when i then flirt with someone else or like not even but like there's just like um you when they're not your priority yeah you're not they're not your priority i've experienced like jealousy coming from from men like but they don't want to be with me they don't want they don't fancy me they don't want to sleep with me they're my they i think they truly are my friend they think they own you but it's like but i think there's like um an element of oh i don't want you

but i don't really want you to have anyone else because i do want you as an option really but i want everyone as an option exactly yeah and you choosing someone else over me as a young man in your life makes me feel upset and betrayed because how could you choose another man over me i should be entitled to you because we've laughed together and we've joked together and we've cried together and all of these things so i am entitled it's definitely interesting i think it's vile it kind of hit me in a bit of a like oh god because i almost i genuinely think i had a bit of a yeah but we're not like that like kind of of course you fuck with the other saying but you don't fuck me right so you know

exactly yeah well that's i think that's valid though because it's the you know you think you've got a genuine you think you've got something that's being matched you think you've got something that's being reciprocated well you think you respect almost and then you realize yeah it's like when i respect you yeah exactly i thought we had a friendship but you actually just want to fuck me but then i but then i do like the way like i'm harking on about it now harking on hark hark away let the bells ring let the bells ring but i do think the way that from my experiences the way that sex is viewed from the men that i know versus the women i know i do think is just in is a completely different thing i think it's completely political like what the not like

the amount that sex is normalized when actually how deep it is to most i'm not saying it's not deep to men but i'm saying to most women that i speak to and i mostly speak to women in my life it is so deep to them but they're forced to kind of socially yeah you're told that it's deep like you know what it is i think to say that it feels so deep to everyone but everyone is kind of performing this casualness that is it yeah i can fuck my friends like it's not a big thing and when from the men that i do speak to it seems like they genuinely can fuck their friends that seems like a thing they can do and actually move on with their lives and keep keep these people as friends and have a girlfriend and their girlfriends probably jealous of the friends and all of the mess of it all but it seems like genuinely these men can be friends with women they've had sex with and not be in love

with them from the women I'm speaking to generally I'm speaking so generally you're socialized to to be if you've had sex with someone there's kind of this idea that even though casual sex is a thing huge blah blah blah there's generally that saying it goes without saying i'm seeing more jealousy and pain and the impact of that sexual experience which was supposed to be an equal thing the impact usually falls way harder on the woman from what i've seen well i also i think that's completely valid because i think if again we're making these generalizations which i think it's pretty fucking obvious that we are guys we're speaking from our own experiences um so don't

be messaging us not all men because yeah do you know i mean i can't be bothered and also being like oh that was really like i just i don't care okay just turn us off um please please just take a break just go away um not you though not you not talking to you not you though you can stay we love you the other one but the mean one is not you don't worry about you don't be don't be worrying yourselves now okay you're not talking to you you're lovely um but no i think that's i think that is completely valid because it's kind of the idea dare i say that a man isn't necessarily raised socially to believe that his worth yeah is derivative of how many exactly how many men yeah value you whereas for a woman it is much more you're told that it's much

more risky because yeah you're both having sex and parting that situation the man can go on because there are lots of other things that are defining his worth but for the woman sure it goes without saying there are a million and one things that you know are your worth you're inherently worthy but you've been made to feel as though your worth is dependent on how a man views you yeah and i think as well if you already have a close relationship to this guy you think you're friends it hurts even more well it's a massive sting because it reduces you to um not only does he not value you sexually he doesn't want to date you you're not valued in that way he also obviously didn't value the friendship that much wendy's small frosty is the ultimate summer refreshment and not because it's cool and creamy and made with fresh canadian dairy it's also refreshingly cheap just 99 cents

until july 14th it's a treat for you and your wallet acas powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals.

Does that mean I'm gay? So why don't more people know this? I'm Owen Ever. I'm Lane Kaplan-Levinson, and this is a field guide to gay animals. A podcast about queerness in the natural world. The animal kingdom is queer, and we are a part. Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere.

Acast.com. And that hurts. I think also it just reduces you. It's like, okay, so we thought we were equals. Well, I thought we had an equal thing. Silly silly me silly me and then i think i have the resentment as well when i mean i would say it's not a radical thought at all a radical statement be confident in your thoughts it's a safe space for you and no one else you know that when a heterosexual couple have sex generally the woman has a lot more at stake in that thing it's presented as it's an equal thing you only have

to look at like this the slut shaming that goes on the words um you only have to watch pam and tommy to see what happened to pamela anderson versus tommy whatever when their sex tape was leaked it's not a fucking equal situation that people have seen her boobs his dick it's not equal like and even then sorry i'm hopping in but even then the global conversation about pam and tommy then being all about how that affects pamela anderson no one gives a shit about tommy it's not a big shit about him no but we have some sort of entitlement over women especially obviously when they're in the media it was pamela anderson sex tape it's not tommy lee's sex tape no one fucking and even now the headline will be how does pamela anderson feel about the fact that they're exploiting her once again pamela anderson is doing this isn't this pamela anderson's name has been dragged back up and all of this and all that happened all that

happened was a couple had sex so don't tell me that that's an equal thing we had sex it's not an equal it's just globally precisely that is not an equal the risk is not the same at all yeah when you also look at contraception contraception contraception or abortion or the fact that most single parents are women like you don't need to look at anything to know that that's true no these are global statistics that are screaming at you right now it's not sephie she's possessed by the voice of the statistics like come on and you can't deny it so i think then i feel frustrated when it's like um almost so flippantly would be oh we're two friends we made the decision to have sex it's like yeah like almost when i hear a guy say like oh yeah we just had sex it's like you don't you don't know almost what that meant to her like from it's it was there's an ignorance there there's a blissful

and they can um kind of almost play on their naivety of like well she told me she didn't mind and all these things and we've kind of had this conversation about consent a few times before of like what are you how much power do you have really to say yes or no when you are consenting to a situation that is inherently um stacked against you stacked against you it is in every way like why i kind of bring up contraception as well because i think that's one of the ways which oh my god is so unfair and so normalized like the amount of times that men often ask to not wear condoms or are funny about condoms and things like that when it means that the woman then has to go the next day and take a fucking morning after pill or usually paid money for that or

to not do that takes a pill takes medicine every freaking day of her life so that and it is freaking where it's a big freaking it makes me sick it's disgusting like how this is not an equal thing this is not an equal we had sex it is that but it's just getting riled up she's getting riled up no it is it's completely fucked it's completely fucked and you can do things to make things fit it more it kind of feel more equal but like i think this is why casual sex is not equal so much of the time and so god we've all between men and women exactly between women men and women of course like that's saying i just think i'm just saying it so you don't get attacked please we're getting angry i'm misdirecting my anger i'm actually angry at the patriarchy and i'm i'm pretending it's coming out as anger towards like some random person who's gonna hate listening

to this so i'm sorry guys i need to continue i kind of am already tired of it already like i know i know i've turned myself out too early we've got ourselves worn out um okay in the grand scheme of things then where do we want to go from here i don't know we've got a few options haven't we we do we've got a few avenues to walk down a few walks of shame we could which walk which walk will you do hand in hand with me i would honestly any i'd be more than happy to accompany you down any i'll walk this earth with any bridge yeah time and time again is there a way you want to take this toxic masculinity so we could do the whole poor man angle which i'm not dying to right so fair enough fair enough someone said and i

thought i to be honest i actually if i'm if i'm right and i'm i'm probably not but i think i am right this person sent a few different messages to a few different questions and i thought they were all really like hit the nail on the head sort of thing like if anyone needs a podcast it's you um but they said i hate that it's a women's labor to educate men on topics such as these like toxic masculinity and things like that and it kind of made me feel like and i kind of said this in the previous episode but sometimes we get dms and messages and stuff from you you you listener you um you person listening we get messages from people sending in like their personal messages with people that they're in a relationship

with or people they're dating or just people in their lives and they say like what do you think of this because i think it's fucked up i can't tell if i'm being dramatic or any of this you know that sort of vibe you get the vibe you have the conversation with your friends your friend will text you your friend will show you a screen and be like was i do you think i was wrong here yeah we're we're taking in we're stacking up the data and we're making our analysis yeah and the reason that message reminds me of this is because so often i completely think it's valid to be like it's it always seems to be a woman's job to educate men on this topic for example but then i also think the other like the real kick in the teeth

then is that you'll be doing your best trying to bring a little bit of insight into a man's life and you can see he's kind of looking at you as if to say god you're fucking annoying shut the fuck up he's looking at you disagree as if to say well i don't know if everyone would say that you've been listening to that podcast a lot and i think it's gone to your head a bit yeah freaks i think i think you're a bit ahead of yourself there toxic masculinity who cares like blah blah blah but it really makes me feel a bit sad because i think so often and again super heteronormative but so often i'm seeing young girls putting in the hours because they care because they genuinely have a care about these issues or about this

person and they're trying to educate this person in a fucking nice way not in an annoying way not in a uh i don't know if you noticed but they're being genuinely nice and normal i'm getting it thrown back in their fucking face because women aren't allowed to be fucking smart or insightful or encourage you to do better because or have opinions because everything is when a woman does it is inherently naggy or annoying or misplaced hysterical she's crazy and she's fucking annoying and you know what i'm sick of it i'm so sick of it because i'm sick of it i'm pissed not only um do i love a hysterical loud nagging more than anything i love them but i also turn that's not what we're being you're being smart clever you're being insightful he can't keep up i'm sorry you're being caring you're

being actually a fucking nice human being also it's like these things are important to me like also often these are the conversations people are having with people they're having sex with their own relationships with these people it's like god if you can't even listen to someone describing how they feel about whatever fucking thing it is yeah so usually something very social group has rights for example and they seem to fundamentally disagree it's like well why on earth are you allowed inside me then dot dot you can't be you can't be it's too much isn't it because it's like if you it's kind of um you go out for dinner and they kind of spit on the waiter they take a piss on the waiter it's like if you are so quick

to look down i just said basically you go out to dinner and they take a piss on the waiter it's like if you are so quick to look down i just said basically you go out to dinner and they take a piss on the waiter like yeah yeah it's like any of these ways that you see someone that you again someone you thought was your mate someone you fucking had respect for someone you did something so weird did something so weird and shitty and it's like you are just like the rest of them i'm disappointed no i think that's it's disappointing and i'm not even allowed to be disappointed because then i'm you know it's annoying yeah then so i have to be i have to pretend it's fine yeah and you're nagging girlfriend winds me up honestly winds me right up honestly it drives me honestly driving me around the bend because also i feel like i've had my eyes peeled for quite a while probably my whole life yeah or the exception i'm looking

around for the exception sure and i think i found okay so you might be an exception you might be an exception kind of that old man by the bus stop he was he really might be nice he had his act together like he knew yeah he loves his wife the bare minimum he's never cheated on his wife he cheats on his wife he only cheated on his wife once after the war he was heartbroken he was he fought in the war he loves the war he was so sad from the war it was about the war jesus christ yeah do you know what i mean give him a break bloody hell like yeah he was quite literally in the trenches i think i've been looking around this world for the exception or like men that seem to like listen and actually take it on board and actually um we spoke about a few episodes ago the jay-z lyric that's like it took for my daughter to be born to see through a woman's eyes i've been looking for men that don't do that and that actually look for a woman's eyes generally um and not wait for a

daughter to be born um and to be honest i'm just disappointed and disappointed disappointed like i love i love so many men but there are so many ways in which i feel so disappointed by them constantly it's like i love you so much like i will always love you but you i will always love you but you make no effort but you don't make it easy you don't make it fucking easy and i disagree with you on literally so many points maybe as well there's something to be said about you know if you're looking for the exception there don't seem to be any exceptions you can't find any exceptions of you know any cases of a man who's like willing to learn and all of these things i can see ones that are willing to learn i'm just seeing them that like it's still disappointing i think i just

i think it's like where are the ones that like aren't gonna like there's oh we know the fucking example it's like i can't even be bothered i know well i do think though it's kind of part of the issue probably is the fact that we have this social issue going on and i hate to make it sound it's almost quite disempowering would you say disempowering yeah yeah let's do it quite disempowering to kind of like declare like women as the victim in this situation but i hope you can just for lack of a better phrasing and stuff guys just bear with that in this situation but i hope you can just for lack of a better phrasing and stuff guys just bear with that in this situation we have this issue for example toxic masculinity is negatively affecting to be honest everybody everyone yeah and as this person

said you know the labor goes to the woman to try and educate and like better this situation and encourage the men in their life and kind of teach and all of these things and maybe the men aren't as receptive to that because part of the issue is that women are told and made to feel like they can't do that because they're not supposed to speak just generally speaking just keep your mouth shut definitely don't have a podcast just keep quiet definitely don't and don't go meddling in things. And you could get the narrative around women being, like we've said, naggy or hysterical and all of these things.

And kind of, you could say it in like a racial element. You could say like, if a black woman was to speak out about a racial issue, she's loud and abrasive and all of these things. Those narratives that are pinned often on women, and especially in like the marginalized community they're labeled as the problem when actually they're trying to fix the answer yeah they're the answer to the problem at hand but it keeps everyone in that kind of perfect um

haven of misery for the majority and like the security for in this case the straight white man for example just hypothetically speaking no one in particular but my eyes are on you straight white man um straight white man when it's when it's just because people we're not even allowed to speak about it yeah no absolutely not it's exhausting yeah i don't know why you know we keep getting ourselves in a bit of a glam old mood over here i know it's a bit stinky isn't it stinky mood this is also the thing about toxic masculinity though like i almost feel like people would have clicked on this and expected it to be like men feel like they can't cry right yeah which is so valid men feel like they can't um someone said

like i love this so much they said said their brother won't even wash his face because it's too feminine. Yeah. Yeah, this is a fucked state of the world. Yes. But I feel like people would have expected a bit of that, which that stuff is all so fucking real. But I think my crux is that it's like,

in all the ways that toxic masculinity is shit for men, it's also fucking so shit for women. And let's not forget who's to blame for this. It's the patriarchy, which was created for men by men, that then has ended up creating this huge gender divide, which then has made women so scared because they hate women so much. They're so scared of looking like women that they have to be masculine, masculine, masculine. And it's like, let's not fucking forget who did this they're victims too we're victims too everyone is suffering everyone's fucked yeah let's remember who which system created this who does that system benefit yeah so that shows you that the whole

fucking thing needs to come giving a white fragility vibe isn't it it's giving like a it's kind of um oh it's just it's i hate to keep well i don't hate to keep speaking about race but kind of the vibe of um especially in 2020 when there was a huge um like rape conversation about race which crickets tumbleweed but anyway um would love to see that back the idea that like black people and just any anyone to be honest had to censor their thoughts around how that's going to make a white person feel and it's the same thing of like we've had actually loads of men i would say like a few messages in our time of doing this podcast from girls saying that we're not considerate enough of men's feelings i've blanked those out

i don't remember them i to be honest find it quite knackering when my whole life has been pandering to my imagined feelings of men and also for the whole time recording this have you not thought about how men are going to i've been thinking how everyone's how men are gonna hear this yeah i've been thinking about the male listeners that are gonna listen to this and no doubt tell us their thoughts in the dms like i really even whilst even whilst you're speaking your mind you still have the back in in the back of your mind the like sense they're just like the the filter the censorship of like but i'm gonna get attacked for it but they're not gonna like that and it's like yeah no because

it's not like what is actually really horrid to hear how you make other people feel and how your behavior is like actually part of like a systematic problem it's not nice sure and i hate to say that feeds into the bigger issue of how we all think we are and it's true individuals on this planet yeah but we are coexisting in this human species it's kind of like um i've had actually a lot of conversations with men relatively recently, like, over the past year about they're walking down the street at night. And, like, they almost want to be like, oh, like, I'm not going to attack. You know, like, how do they, like, make it known that they are safe? They're a safe one. Like, they're not going to hurt you.

But they're not a safe one. But they can't. There's nothing you can do. Exactly. They're not going to attack that woman. Yeah, it's like, okay, okay so you i want to say by the way i'm one of the good guys is basically what they're trying to say exactly right now in this moment i'm not gonna attack you i'm not like a fucking rapist on the street like congrats i'm not violent yeah i'm not outwardly violent they probably are violent in so many ways like i there are so many ways in which so we know consent

rape all of these things sexual assault they don't just play out on the street when you're running late at night and there's a guy behind you unfortunately they do play out in that way as well but way more common yeah it's your boyfriend that fucking sexually assaults you yeah like the guy that wants to be a fucking family member by the way i'm i'm a good guy i'm not gonna um grab you from behind and fucking drag you into the fucking bush but meanwhile my wife is at home cooking my kids dinner why am i fucking out walking the dog on my own what's your wife doing oh no i'm sick of it these things play out in like the most micro ways it's like yeah okay so we can identify that they're the bad guys of the world but they also play into a system that

filters down so small like it goes down down down and down and all the micro ways and that plays out you're not one of the good guys because i don't think there can be good guys in a system that is that fundamentally puts you at the top yeah i don't think it can exist and that doesn't mean to say i don't love so many men and i think they're literally oh god can be great like it's saying nothing we love more than a man oh boy there's nothing i love more but like it is like it don't go around going oh by the way i'm not going to attack you at night thanks so much do you know what i mean thank you so much isn't it also don't believe a little conundrum we've got ourselves in a real conundrum do you ever think about i don't know why this has kind of been a bit on my mind recently i guess it's always on my mind but kind of you know the

ways that we um well not us because we don't apart from this podcast we don't have any kids but yeah the ways that we parent right okay you know it maybe not from a first-hand point of view but because you're not a mum you're not a mummy you're not a yummy mummy just yet the ways that we parent little boys and little girls quote unquote they sound horrid right little girls and little girls and little boys i don't like them the way you know i just i think at the moment i'm observing some interesting i'm making note of some interesting things to be honest i'm not even making no i'm trying to not see it but i can't help but see it it's in my fucking face that i'm seeing these young boys be parented i guess by even millennial parents at this point where we're at now so the generations you know we're getting close guys it's like it's our turn yeah and i'm unfortunately seeing things that i really wish i

wasn't seeing um and well actually someone sent a message about how i think they were saying that they work in a school and they see it on the playground like young kids toxic masculinity already and obviously it is so ingrained in children and i'm sure we can reflect on our own experiences like being young girls at school and the way that the young boys were treated and the way that the young boys treated us um and all of the really sometimes subtle but sometimes absolutely major really gendered differences between cis boys and cis girls non-binary people there are huge like discrepancies between the ways that we treat often kids actually and i like to think that if i was to have kids i would treat them all the same and be nice to all of them and

try and do my best no matter what but i think that's incredibly naive and there are loads of it's not gonna happen because you have a different idea of what a boy is than a girl it's like right as much as you can undo so much of this stuff and i feel like especially at the moment like with gender being a topic and it has never been a topic other than like men in the same way now gender is fucking this huge expansive thing which is in fucking credible and it's actually a conversation like there are so but your idea of anyone sorry well i was just gonna say even if it's always been a thing but now the conversation is cashing no exactly reality of course it's always been a thing but now actually we have wordshing out to the reality. No, exactly. Of course. It's always been a thing. But now actually we have words, like the general population has,

I have conversations with this with my grandparents. Are being forced to learn it too, right? That's a completely different thing. But your idea of gender was still fixed in a time. Of course. If the whole thing of like, all of your, what is it? Core fucking shit, I don't know,

is formed before the age of seven i'm making this up we've heard some things but like if we're time capsules of for example the late 90s yeah horrifying oh that's horrid it's absolutely horrifying can i be a time capsule of anything else it's it's insane like your idea of gender then or how a little boy um should be treated i mean it's it's pretty set in stone as much as you can literally undo that like you would have to be going against certain things but like i do think so much of us would have the instinct like oh it's so fucked up it actually makes me sick like there's so many times when i've been like babysitting a little boy and a little girl and things just come out like little things slip out where it's like oh can you help me with this

just because he's like the the boy like or right um like could you help me lift this chair or for the girl could you help me lay the table just like just small things that like teach children who they are or like yeah i don't know there's a million there's a million things it is fucked i also think it's interesting like um i don't know if this is relevant but i think it's interesting the idea of like if we were to have boys how would we parent boys how would we parent girls versus the way that we were parented as girls and even like as well this isn't really relevant but i just think it's interesting when you think about parents not knowing who their kid is going to be or like

the i feel like as well sometimes you see parents treating their children as a mini version of them or living vicariously through them and like kind of projecting their own wants and fears i suppose it was two language wants and fears yeah um projecting their aspirations and whims um but projecting onto their children and i've had this conversation with both of my parents as well like in a kind of um like in a cultural sense or a racial sense or like even a religious sense about how my mum and my dad were getting involved with someone who vice versa was on a very opposing um from a very opposing background to them like one of them is like white and catholic and like pale as ice and irish and like guinness and alcoholic and dying exactly and the other one is like muslim and not why and it's very layered and um so similar in so many ways but it creates something that there's an aspect of your child

now that both parent vice versa isn't inherently connected to because it came from somebody else and i also think it's especially interesting then when your parents aren't together anymore and i always think of like being kind of um like i don't ever see my parents in the same room and i was their only child so i'm kind of a walking phenomenon like i'm kind of a universal yeah a time capsule like a magical kind of sparkling weird thing of these two kind of beings that in lots of ways were never supposed to be tied and like mixed together yeah but i think the idea of like young women for example being raised with all of this shit about who they're supposed to be and what it means for example to be a man and then how that's and then adding like race and religion and culture and all of these things

all of the shit that we are taught from the moment we're born and even before we're born potentially that we just heard like from through the listening out through the walls how that is going to impact the way that we teach the younger generation because there's a huge obviously there are just huge generational differences and i find it very interesting even between like us and people who are a few years younger than us and the way that they can like call my bluff on all this random shit that i had never yeah never even questioned and the way that i've been doing the same to people who are just slightly older than me my whole life like it is interesting but it's also scary you know because we don't know what we're doing we're just human beings no got no bloody clue no are we wrapping yeah i think we

are i think that's all right that's that's a great time me up yeah nice okay i'm feeling like we're doing episodes that are like episodes at the moment we're coming out with some points and i don't stand by any of them i have to say i don't stand by a thing no take it with a pinch of salt like yeah everything i just said scratch it out discount that yeah like we're not doing i hope you're not actually listening if anyone's listening i hope you're not or whatever if anyone i hope no one's listening if you are keep this one to yourself keep it to yourselves guys keep it to yourselves god i mean hilarious um well cool we should go on steven bartlett's thing he should have us on we should us and cole sprouse it would be the headline would be like unstable and yeah i mean like question

mark question mark like red i love the like thumbnails all right they're so intense aren't they very intense it's kind of crime documentary goes like and it's like they put it all in black and white yeah all of a sudden the editing's kind of the budget is it's like a big explosion behind them yeah yeah who do you think it's gonna be on 80 isn't it it's like a big explosion behind them yeah yeah who do you think it's gonna be on 80 isn't it it's like my parents left me at 12 yeah like someone crying but like the whole thing is generally quite pleasant and then the whole thing is like oh god my parents are so nice my parents were great yeah they did leave me as well but not a big deal really yeah no see them all the time like Yeah, I'm over that now.

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