Goes Without Saying - toxic relationships: it’s not me, it’s you

Episode Date: August 29, 2021

is "toxicity" nothing more than a beloved buzzword for girls that are obsessed with crystals, self-diagnosing, and andy from headspace? is there nuance and worthwhile substance in the "toxic relationship" conversation? are we all inherently "toxic", or just jaded and judgemental? all of these questions (and more!) will likely remain unanswered in this wild and chaotic episode of Goes Without Saying. sephy & wing reflect on their own destructive relationships, communication patterns, and attachment styles, whilst breaking down problematic romances, friendships, and family dynamics. alexa, play toxic by britne-- alexa, play goes without saying podcast with sephy and wing. join the conversation every monday.speak your mind on the @sephyandwing instagram!you’re invited to our discord group chat: https://discord.gg/j5HsjVCtgw Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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wherever you listen to podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Goes Without Saying, we are back for another episode of Goes Without Saying with Sefi. Hi, that's me. And Wing. Hi, that's me. That's her. This episode is all about quote-unquote toxic

relationships we go in on how to identify them if we've ever been in them how to communicate in them how to get out of them if it's possible to leave them or change them um or if we're just the problem all along and it's us that is Alexa play toxic by Britney Spears. I hope you enjoy it because I had a great old time. Sefi, did you have a good time in this episode? Yeah, it was really nice. I'm loving the episodes these days. I'm feeling very relaxed.

Oh, music to my fucking ears. Well, take it away. Take it away, Sefi and Wing. I hope you have something to say. Not really. We've just been talking for too long. So we've kind of used up all of our conversation. All of our energy is kind of gone. We did our nice things that we do where we say nice things about each other. But we did it not even we said one thing. We did a whole full course dinner of

compliments. When you say full course dinner, maybe we should explain. We literally said, okay, so here's your bread, some bread for the table to wet the whistle is I love this thing about you for your main course is this then we went right through to drink it was good cheese board we even did cheese board we got down to and then we got ice cream on the walk home yeah we're so we're absolutely exhausted with compliments uh-huh it's really nice i'm full i'm so fucking full of compliments i'm full i'm full absolutely stuffed i've been gobbling gobble gobble gobble I had four desserts Jesus so we have gone fully mad if that if you needed any more confirmation we have gone

fully insane daddy's gone mad hasn't he what have you been up to what have I been up to I don't think I've been up to anything exciting I mean I don't know whether to say it I mean I went to a funeral oh I thought you were gonna say a date that's why I pulled that face I'm not being rude I did also go on a date which was really good really fun but I also went to a funeral you know ages ago in an episode I said well we missed an episode because I was having hard personal times whatever we said I don't know but yeah assume the worst it happened so that was great but I feel a lot of relief with the funeral being over um and that i can just get on with my own like grief i guess in my own like personal way rather than having to like perform grief for like extended family yeah and stuff so i definitely feel closure

happy that it's over it went like as well as a fucking funeral can go some sense of closure i mean it was a long time not even a long time ago a couple oh i don't know it's been a process yeah it's been a whole process so i'm definitely like fragile fragile girl at the moment but also it was the right thing to happen and like it sephi can you give us some profound views on grief please it's like don't it's fine can you give us some profound views on aging and death i mean yeah no there's look like you don't it's fine can you give us some profound views on aging and death i mean yeah no there's look like you don't there's no pressure here to say anything i have no thoughts i'm just sad yeah um how are you i'm really good anyone die in your family try and fucking top me god

um yeah i could i'm good i'm really happy seffy is happy too i'm not being insensitive no oh my god in no way oh my god in no way i'm definitely happy it's just life is fucking weird as fuck isn't it a boy is it yeah the earth is a weird place we've said it before oh my god i didn't tell you go on i had a massive breakdown last night god and you had the nightmare yeah and my boyfriend also had weird dreams i think i took had a massive breakdown last night god and you had the nightmare yeah and my boyfriend also had weird dreams i think i took bad energy to bed last night my my dog probably sleeping at the end of the bed probably had bad dreams as well i'm cursing a lot of us what was the breakdown i just burst into tears because i was making noodles and i spilt like hot water

everywhere fine just tipped you over the edge. Well, okay. Let me bring it back to the beginning, which I also did say this to Zeffie Ilo, that I've been swimming in the sea. You may have seen my Instagram. I've been swimming. Love, love, love. I would say like a,

I don't even know who's a strong swimmer. Is his name something Phelps? Michael Phelps? Tom Daley. Tom Daley. I've been diving. Isn't he a cyclist? Michael Phelps, maybe.

I thought he was that cyclist that got done for like drugging no that's oscar no no not oscar pistorius oh no no no we're getting oh look let's not get into it it's great we're getting controversial no no no who am i thinking of i don't know who's the cyclist oh you're thinking of a woman why am i thinking roger federer oh no i don't know then i have no idea i don't know there's a there's a it's irrelevant you're swimming I've been swimming and I was saying to Sefi earlier I have massively underestimated how scared I am of sharks yeah I mean don't be alarmed I haven't seen any sharks and I feel like anyone in the UK or anyone who's had like I don't know like a similar life to me in my hair so far will i'm sure understand why it's quite absurd

to have quite a strong fear thing is i don't think it's absurd well i love sharks but i'm terrified and i didn't realize how terrified i was until i kind of got in the sea and i had amazing moments quite euphoric i was kind of laughing to it i was like completely on my own laughing away this is insane how alive I must be at this moment yeah feeling so alive that's the thing with swimming yeah it's amazing it makes you go mad it's like how crazy to be alive right now it's like Jesus I'm in the sea and then I got a little bit deeper I mean I was still I literally didn't get my feet off the ground and I started getting a bit scared and kind of i was really quite far

out because the sea was quite far out so it's still really shallow but like in shark land i was quite far away and i was looking over at my dog on the shore like fuck i can't get back fast i'm gonna die yeah and i kept thinking about the sharks but i think that the anxiety about the sharks actually probably brought up some anxious feelings anyway because then the whole day i felt a little bit like oh i kind of i could probably do with a cry and i watched keeping up with the kardashians nice and i watched the episode where chloe marries lamar odin and i was sobbing my nuts off wow i was sobbing just kind of not even that they were getting just i think i'm rambling now but i was just kind of thinking the whole time like god time changes things i was in a really bizarre mood and then again that i obviously hadn't shed enough

tears because then at the end of the day i was making my noodles and my water went everywhere and i started crying again and my boyfriend was like what the hell is going on and you're like it's because of the sharks yeah exactly and i said i think the sharks brought up some anxious feelings for me this morning no i don't doubt it as well like because when you were talking to me earlier about the sharks or just swimming in the sea there are no sharks but i don't doubt that there are sharks yeah just because global warming everyone's like there are no sharks in england there are no sharks in england but my logic is there was a whale in the thames that should not have been there either but it was it very much was so i just think like with global warming and everything there's only so much of this i can listen to planet's heating up

what the fuck is going on bo burnham would say yeah so true so i just think i wouldn't be shocked if there was a shark can you not and i also have never got in the sea before without thinking about sharks yeah yeah but also i was also saying like i do think it's the media as i think most things are the fucking patriarchal media it's all on jaws like eight out of ten times you see someone get in the sea in a film or tv they're getting eaten by a shark so i just think it's we're trained to think there are sharks everywhere when there aren't i love sharks i think they're amazing but so anyway this is gonna be my new thing is i'm working on the phobia and i'm gonna i'm gonna nail it every time i get in that sea yeah it looks amazing. But so anyway, this is going to be my new thing is I'm working on the phobia and I'm

going to, I'm going to nail it. Every time I get in that sea, it looks amazing. It looks so beautiful. Such a serene image, but I'm actually lying inside because I'm scared I'm going to get eaten. That's fine. We're not fine if you get eaten, but also that'd be fine, I reckon. That's fine by me.

Good way to go. Works for me. But yeah, no, I do completely get that because they are scary but i do think also if you have a if you have quite a fearful morning makes sense to have a fearful whole day and then nightmares at night i think it's just quite intense i go quite early and you're in cold water and you're kind of like essentially naked out and about also like i live in brighton like it's not i'm not on holiday do you know what i mean that's why it's weird to me i've never i'm not one of those people that has grown up in

england like being out in the sea in public out in nate i that's never been my life i don't know it's just so weird i also think that doesn't go away because i think i am one of those people that grew up kind of in the sea out and about and in rivers and shit and i still every single fucking time i go in the river i am terrified of crocodiles and shit like that beasts or like dead bodies like i just go quite grim and dark in my mind because just immediately you're out of your comfort zone yeah you don't know what's in there it's a very unfamiliar territory yeah but it's also like the most stunning thing you could do so stunning even though the whole time you are thinking about like blood and death and all of these like horrific things well i was almost quite so i quite stunning i kind of went like i was literally like wading in and i kind

of sat and it was just i was sat kind of cross-legged and it was coming up to my hips fine perfect you were sitting cross-legged in the sea yeah yeah a bit of a meditation vibe you're gonna have pure sand and stones in your bikini bottoms oh yeah it was in my bikini bottoms yeah and then i took i took my i'm not gonna lie i took them off right here in this living room and i cast sand everyone what's going on on the new rug yeah so it's had many a hoover stunning start to a day anyway yeah sorry i feel like i'm going on and on no i'll talk about sharks at any point i mean same but we have we probably spent an hour talking about sharks earlier and i could go on so maybe there is a limit yeah maybe there is

a limit we've um reached shark limit um just one more fact about sharks though just quickly yeah i told you this also earlier but i was listening to a podcast oh yeah a podcast that she hates it's not a podcast i hate i love the concept so much but i don't know how they managed just to make it not interesting in any episode so she hates it whenever she talks about it she says i hate this podcast it's so bad but i listen all the time and think oh like i would really love this if it was just executed slightly maybe you guys have a similar experience listening to this who knows yeah i'm just getting some kind of tension between the the like many hosts i think they just have too many hosts and it's like just too much this is why you want me to get eaten so we don't have the

tense dynamic too many hosts you're looking for one host of the goes without saying podcast and it's not wing i think maybe your one host podcast would work but sharks they were saying are misandrist so they hate men proportionally sharks eat way more men than they eat women and i just thought that's quite fascinating mood but also they just hate eating humans in general yeah which is why i feel bad this is why i'm gonna conquer this phobia well let's go we said earlier let's go swimming with sharks i'm up for it what do you remember something do i remember something in the last episode we said we would do something nice oh for ourselves we do we do an act of self-love god and now we've just been

talking about well i'm gonna say mine is getting in the sea and being committed to like taking that time precious moment meditating in the open water it's amazing and i'm committing to myself to not be fucking shitting myself the entire time that's really nice okay that's really good thanks what's yours i really threw i threw you in there i really did i was spinning webs around you talking about sharks distracting you and then i dropped it in you had homework to do threw it and made it all link no that's perfect i'm glad you linked that back in because otherwise it's like are we gonna cut that whole bit what we talk about yeah i was thinking that yeah i also feel a bit bad because you were talking about a funeral and i turned it into sharks so i just want to apologize no on air

no no well it's kind of otherwise it's the funeral episode it's like bring out the music like okay suddenly the most like no one signed up for that anyway okay and especially the intro hey guys goes about the same yeah how can you update us so i went to my grandfather's funeral um like jesus christ jesus christ um well speaking of funerals i think my nice thing that i did for myself was i was very kind to myself on that day like i knew i would struggle and i knew that i would be weeping crying my eyes out and it was one of those things where not a lot of people were crying other than i well i don't know it was kind of our immediate family war crime but like my am i gonna give you fucking funeral dynamics right now

give us names go on me and my siblings were very much sobbing sobbing sobbing sobbing and i was just so proud with how we all handled that with like external kind of the the like more external families like i was just really not wanting anyone to be like i didn't want to make small talk i just wanted to get in it's a pure moment isn't it so you don't want it to be tainted in any way but you don't be given fucking bullshit in that moment it's like this is a pure thing i didn't want any it was a lovely service shut the fuck up shut up and get out of my fucking face i mean it's hard to know what to say with zeffie at the best of times so i didn't want any bullshit if she's in a stressful environment best just avoid i just think what the fuck are you talking about yeah and also there's like a

lot of um there's a few members of my family with autism and i was just very proud of i was very i was just very proud of like one member of my family specifically and i think i was very kind to myself on that entire day and like made sure that i was taking care of like the people that needed taking care of and also of myself just being like i'm not gonna perform anything for you like people coming up to me and being like just want to talk to you about it it's like no sorry i'm i'm not doing that today amazing i'm proud of you as well and i'm i'm happy that it was the best that it could have been in a i'm i'm happy that it was the best that it could have been in a sad situation i'm happy that yeah you didn't have to go through something you know on top of all of that yeah no unnecessary shit just i was great to myself i wasn't a bitch which

i often am i was a bitch to other people i was a real bitch to other people that's for fucking sure as she should but to my people i actually like in my family, I was great. Okay, should we get the elephant out of the room? Yeah. Let me tell you what the elephant is. Let's get the sharks out of the room. Somebody said, quite a few people said, and this is I think the main, I just want to get this out of the way. Because to me, I have a personal gripe with the word toxic.

I wonder if you do too, I'm sure. Yeah. Not a fan. I'm not a fan. Also another thing. A word i also don't like yeah podcast really for what reason i think it's really ugly but i'm just saying just you saying i have a personal gripe with the word i just thought do you know what word i don't love podcast podcast ugly really stupid stupid word i quite like it podcast i quite like the pod

part i think that's nice pod i think it's dumb if i could change the name of podcasting or having a podcast go on what would you call it let me think it would be harry and i'll be directly to you casting yeah for sure it would be yeah yeah okay somebody said lots of people said something similar i just thought this person this person wins basically if you said something similar you suck this person won this person beat you to it cracks the first crack because they said it personally yeah they said it perfectly toxic is a buzzword like yeah people can treat you shit but does that sorry why am i putting on a voice why do you make a really intelligent point you tried to make her sound

so dumb like yeah i don't know why i put that voice on toxic is a buzzword like yeah people can sorry right this person is saying toxic is a buzzword like yeah people can sorry right this person is saying toxic is a buzzword like yeah people can treat you shit but does that always mean they're toxic question mark and a lot of people also said i'm gonna tie it in with someone something else that someone said thank you for sending these in by the way someone said i feel like people don't talk about how it brings out your toxic traits so when you're in a toxic relationship you're also being toxic often this is what i oh no sorry go on no you go i'm talking my nut off over here this is what i thought was so interesting about the responses that it's like obviously when you throw out a

question of like talk to your talk to us about your relationship with like toxic relationships everyone has a story oh my god so many messages so thank you you were saying it before this was our most ever so genuinely thank you so much so many people it was really interesting when people would talk about their own toxicity because i think that doesn't naturally come to mind because you instantly think of the ways you've been wronged and all the fucking annoying people that you know in your life i just think it was really amazing like that seeing the self-reflection in the dms and in the question boxes like i actually think i was toxic here and like and then i was putting on top of that my own analysis of it's not even so much about like toxic people but like i think

toxic dynamics between people because i've had it before where i would call this person a toxic person but actually what i think it was more was like i'm too full of shit and they're too full of shit. So together we have a toxic dynamic. Together we are full of shit, Ablisa. Literally. And it brings out the shitness in us both. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I agree with them saying like, it's just a buzzword in the sense that,

cause also like, I mean, this whole podcast is built on fucking buzzwords. There's such a need for it. It's called clickbait. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's a total need for it it's called clickbait yeah yeah well there's a total need for it to get a point across efficiently and i also think within this kind of um circle buzzwords like toxicity and boundaries and gaslighting and all of these things kind of

toxic positivity yeah it's like just put toxic in front of anything and people love it yeah yeah but i think there's so much there's been such a need for that obviously because we've been treating each other like fucking shit for like centuries yeah and now we've got an understanding of boundaries like i want the children to have an understanding of boundaries i think that's great i want these 13 year olds on instagram to know what boundary is amazing but obviously if something's a buzzword it's going to be misused and blah blah blah so that's kind of the thing with toxic i think that's my gripe that's my first crux is that i just think i don't i don't know i think it's really helpful to be able to identify when something is a negative or like destructive situation but i kind of think in part it probably

just encourages i think it does a lot to encourage people to reflect on yeah the ways that they've been wronged which is absolutely important but i think it can quite easily be a kind of point of conversation or like a just a concept that doesn't necessarily so easily allow people to like think quite critically actually about the experiences that they've had and how they feel and how they've acted and blah blah blah but it's quite simplistic it's quite an easy get out isn't it it's get out jail free card it's quite like if someone ever acts like a dick uh-huh oh you're toxic which is just such a it's just like yeah they probably are they probably are and i can probably name three ways in which we all are we're all kind of awful scummy humans aren't we yeah three ways go on give us three three ways i think it's like if i look at

the average human yeah well bread for the table would be just your starter of why you're toxic is but like the bread for the table if we're using this extended like meal metaphor we were using off the podcast and that makes no sense so if only that was recorded like bread for the table for everyone of like the first thing i would offer you that like everyone is toxic is everyone is completely selfish and like that's not our fault but it's like you're completely programmed like evolutionary lovely to be like survival of the fittest you want you and your family your like um kids to have the best fucking chance so it's like you're geared towards what is best for you so everyone

has this like quite unlikable thing about themselves which is like i'm worried about how i'm presenting and i'm worried about how i'm gonna get given the shit deal and all of that it's like okay so that's just the first way in which you were probably quite toxic to the people around you you're always in a group of people yeah you can have like you can be empathetic and all this stuff but everyone there is kind of like okay well where do i fit within this like but what if you do that then i'm on my own that it's like everyone's kind of a little bit fucked then in loads of other ways it's like you're probably a bit of a bitch as well what's this not me you're talking to all of us you're probably a bit of a bitch question mark this whole thing is directed at me no but i just think like um we all we all

have shitty qualities and and a lot of us have like the same like a lot of them are generic when i look around it's like i see some repeating um motifs here that you're all possessing the same shit and it's because you all have this kind of selfish gene well now we're all obsessed with fucking boundaries and gaslighting and toxicity yeah girl boss gatekeep what is it that thing yeah gaslight yeah okay well i'm glad we got that out the way basically we don't even like the term that this whole episode is based on yeah forgive me for creating a beautiful title around these buzzwords forgive me so sorry i hold my hands up we needed to get some listeners i think it's just important

to keep it in mind go without saying i'm saying that's what i'm saying don't love a disc it's not a pod about disclaimers but i sometimes think some things that go without saying need to be addressed okay i really like this message actually do you want to go in with the one or should i continue no no go in go in yeah this person said let me just double check because i think this person has a podcast and i think it's called the lily pod and i reckon you lot should listen to it yeah it is this person you and I think it's called The Lily Pod, and I reckon you lot should listen to it. Yeah, it is this person. You should listen, guys. It's called The Lily Pod. She has really great... I didn't actually think I was gonna do this. This was not planned. Whitewashing Appropriation and the Kardashians is the last episode. It came out on Monday. There's

an imposter among us. Perfectionism, self-doubt, great titles, great concepts. You should listen anyway. The Lily Pod. pod this person said one thing i dislike about the discourse around toxicity is that it labels people as toxic not their behavior so it labels people as toxic not their behavior which i think can be unproductive and very black and white which i kind of think is another crux that we're trying to get out is like where is the nuance in just labeling someone toxic and moving on yeah and that's the thing with i can name three toxic traits in every single person including myself what does that mean to be like that person is toxic but this person here is not toxic it's like who are you as this like moral code law yeah

the big book of moral thoughts it's like what what is this yeah you are the moral compass among us only sephie and win judge. It's fucking true. And I'll name three fucking things about you right now. I like this one. Someone said, one of my pals drains the hell out of me. Guess that's toxic because it's creating stress for me. Yeah, God. And I just thought that was interesting because we talk quite a bit about,

I don't know if we talk about this on the podcast or not, but we, I think we talk about like being drained by people a lot or like certain people can drain you and some of some people can like lift you up slightly i actually think i heard this once on the only way is essex when i was about 13 watching taoi shout out to the only way is essex you guys might not have heard of it but it's a great show or it's actually not a great show but when i was revising for my gcses i used to stay up late and watch it someone on that show said there are two kinds of people you can either be a radiator or a drain so you can either radiate you can either be a radiator or a drain and i do think when you

encounter a drain and you could someone can be a drain for you that is a radiator to someone else like it's all about absolutely matches here but it's like yeah i i don't know if that's toxic but definitely like an interesting dynamic when one of your friends like consistently like drains you yeah what do you think that is though because it's not just that they're a drain it's that something about them is draining you it depends on loads of things it's like are they is it triggering something's not being said there do you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah something there's a pattern there that's been happening and it's draining you over the course of your socialization you made the decision not to say anything they made the decision to fucking drain you what is that so that's something where i'd say

that might not even be like a toxic person but that's like a toxic dynamic they are draining you because they have realized that there's a power imbalance here and they are like yeah they've realized that they can drain you and get away with it do you think people that drain know they're draining not always no i don't think anyone who's ever drained me has known that they can drain you and get away with it. Do you think people that drain know they're draining? Not always, no. I don't think anyone who's ever drained me has known that they're draining me, really. No, they'd walk away from it saying we had a great time. Yeah.

And I'd walk away saying, God, I'm fucking drained. Yeah. Because I reckon there must be loads of times that people have been around me and they walked away thinking, God, she's fucking draining. I would never know. None the wiser. I can't relate. No way has that happened to you. Really? You're a're a radiator well we would say that about each other wouldn't we

i reckon a lot of people think we're drains you listening right now may think are we drained but that kind of that's kind of what i mean by like it's not about the person the dynamic it's kind of what that person means yeah it's not about the person it's about the dynamic and it's not even it's about behaviors yeah and and the choice to not um communicate it as well is a bit risky in itself isn't it acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend Nature. I've got a gay rooster named Francois. Is so gay. These rams are gay. I'm studying gay animals.

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ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com how the hell do you communicate to someone oh you're draining me actually like every time i walk away you're well but that's the thing i think you don't communicate oh you're draining me i think you communicate like look repeatedly like i know i didn't say anything before but actually when you bring up like my fucking insecurity about my grades it's signed is or like when you you know when you bring up this thing like i don't know if i'm just sensitive maybe i'm reading it wrong but like i reckon we should just like not go into that because it's just making it just makes me feel so shit like i've noticed like do i mean like i've

noticed when you bring that or like blah blah because it's not that they're just draining you there's something actually happening there but sometimes it's not sometimes it's just they're boring well sometimes you're not compatible with them you don't want to spend time with them yeah or like it's not even boring but it's like when someone uses you to be their therapist i find that's when i'm most drained in a conversation when it's like i've done two hours now of like intense being your therapist trying to build you up trying to build you up before you've even said oh how are you yeah there's like there's no balance in the dynamic exactly yeah i completely agree but then i think that's like you say like i'm i'm wincing but yeah you can't you can't hear me wincing but you say like like oh like or just like i actually don't have the space to to be your therapist or

you just you lead yeah you lead with like can can we talk about my shit right now i'm really going through something yeah or even like are you available tonight i've got something that i would really appreciate talking to you about because you're so like considerate and like insightful i'd really appreciate being able to talk to you about it but totally get like if you're not in the headspace to handle my shit right now and kind of show them what it is to like appreciate someone's fucking limits time i think some people just still don't get it i agree but like i'm not about to be toxic and choose to not try no true but it's like okay so you do that you come to them with the gift of like all the communication you can like muster and then they go yeah no i'd love to talk to you about your

stuff um and you talk about it for 10 minutes oh oh my god it really reminds me of like blah blah blah and it's still back and then it goes back like i do think some people just are not aware of their draining energy i completely agree i completely agree they're not aware if you can make them aware make them aware but then i also think like i reckon some people just aren't supposed to be in your life that's what i mean by like then is it to the point where it's like you're incompatible yeah like if someone's constantly draining you why why are you gonna see them again by choice though and that's the toxic dynamic it's not even that they are a toxic person it's like there might be someone whose life they are kind of interested in because i think it's when someone shows you like consistent disinterest in any of your issues and wants to use you as like um what's it like a bouncing sound

board sound board thing soundboard bouncing post soundboard for their own issues and all of this stuff and as their personal therapist which was a term that was used a lot in the question boxes in the answers whatever they're called yeah it's the relationship between the two of you that just is not working it's not even that they're wrong or you're wrong it's not working yeah yeah it's it's just what what are you getting out of this don't force it don't force it geez i think it's a really important part of relationships that they need to be worked on and like grow over time real and good relationships are ones that have been like cultivated nurtured worked on and yeah exactly

created you don't just um fall into a perfect relationship, like romantic or otherwise with anybody. Well, you might, but like it gets better when you continuously like enjoy it over time. And learn how to deal with the like hiccups. Yeah, learn, communicate, blah, blah, blah. But some people just, you don't need to, you can't force someone to see your perspective.

You can't force someone to change. You you can't force someone to change you can't i mean you can't make someone not draining or toxic or whatever um can i ask you you can choose to decline the question i can decline yeah you can always decline the call have you ever cut anyone out of your life because they've been like too toxic oh my god absolutely i think i'm quite a chopper yeah you are you're a woodcutter you're you are a chopper actually now i come to think of it yeah snip and pop and crack yeah i'm quite a lumberjack not for lack of trying no no never for lack of trying can you expand um i think it's quite a gift honestly that we all have in life to be able to choose certain aspects in all of the ways that you can't choose your life and so many parts

of it it's a gift to be able to lean into the parts that you do have choice over and i feel like autonomy in your relationships and autonomy in where you find yourself being present is something i hold very very highly and close to me totally like i just won't volunteer myself to be in a relationship or social setting that i'm not that i'm just feeling like is not working for either of us because also i don't want to be fake i don't want to yeah i'm not trying to give someone something that is not real i don't think that's fair either but i think it's really important because i do think it's no coincidence there's i just think there's a big gendered aspect to it in the sense that we have an audience of largely young women and they're all saying that they're being people's therapists

and blah blah blah and they're all in these toxic relationships that's not a coincidence to me in the times where you can choose to like no longer entertain someone who is very obviously disrespecting you or like not treating you how you should be treated which is at the end of the day just fairly yeah then it's time to go and that's fine don't you don't have to cling i'm not gonna cling wrap here's a cling wrap free zone the earth is dying cling wrap i would call it cling film cling film so would i yeah i just said that's what i took from that point that's what i took from that yeah amazing thank you that whole lovely whole lovely speech i actually call it cling film it's an honor to share my thoughts with you i completely agree it is it's one of the

things you should treasure the most i think you know taylor swift said you know when it's time to go baby baby you can't go sorry i have to quickly say i hope you don't mind me saying sephie's went on a date with this guy and he kept saying baby now i've said it in a podcast i'm taking it to the next level not just a meme in in your friendship group now but anyway i think you know when it's time to just oh you can't it's very fucking unhealthy to be dreading the next time you're going to see someone or their name pops up on your phone you're thinking fuck like the fuck am i going to say to you now or like every insecurity you have is somehow rooted in something they passed on to you or said to you is fucking unfair and despicable and i do not want

that for you you don't deserve that it's time to go and you can open the door again doors can be unlocked keep the key it's fine keep it put it in a safe place it's okay doesn't have to mean anything crazy just let it go let it be fluidity but this is why i think you're strong like you are strong with like yeah i am if someone doesn't match exactly what you require from them at that moment not that you don't try not that it's well within reason also like i love different people blah blah i don't mean to say you're ruthless because you're not you're not ruthless you're not going around chopping down burning bridges left right and center no but you you are good at leaving when you want to leave i'd rather have no relationship than a really horrible relationship that makes us both feel a bit weird and off and i totally fucking agree so if this podcast ends at any

any given moment you know what went wrong it went sour i don't want like a bitter taste especially but she will have kept the key yeah i'll keep the key like it's just it's just it's what it is it's fine it's gonna make both of us feel worse trying to continue something that's obviously not right for anyone it's horrible it's horrible it's a horrible experience and i think the worst i just think there's no reason to come away from a from a relationship or a situation with somebody and you'll find yourself talking extensively about all the negative things about that person with other people you know they're talking about you as well that has to end also it doesn't even have to be like a cut that it's like oh fizzle fizzle city yeah fizzle fucking city fizzle city it's the only way because also it's the only fucking way

i don't want no conflict but i do think if you have had a few encounters that are like negative or like there's becoming a pattern here basically that they leave feeling great you leave feeling very bad like you need to go to bed you assume they're feeling great well i mean that they've used you in some way yeah they've used yeah. You have an amazing metaphor that's like, they, go on, do you want to say your amazing metaphor? Is it the one about drowning? Drowning, yeah. Is it the one about sharks?

It's funny because when you talk about cutting someone out. You think about this person. I think about this person. I think about this situation. And this was, I felt this metaphor brewing. I had this metaphor when I was like, fucking God, nearly 10 years ago. And I was like 15

very young it i felt like they were drowning they were having a terrible time and that's fine but i was for a long time being happy to have my head be used to keep them afloat they were using my head to keep them above water so i was being pushed under drowning now now i'm fucking drowning all because you couldn't swim all because your your shore was waving your your winds your waves were choppy and now i'm drowning you didn't bring a rubber ring no you brought no life jacket with you oh there's no rubber ring there's no life jacket the only option is drown and enter the next life without them but like you have to swim i had to swim away sorry i have to swim away you're you're drowning me and also like i'm happy to be drowned for like six months a year two years

too long yeah too long no too long look i'm not gonna die here it resounds i i literally love how much that resounds i can't die here because it is just yeah it's powerful because it's like i think we all know that feeling when it's like okay i'll let myself just be drowned like you clearly need it like okay fine like i'm you're gasping for air here that's fine okay fine i'll do it for a bit but there just comes a point when it's like i can't fucking do this forever now i'm drowning too i can't just let you essentially just like beat me to a fucking pulp every time you see me because you need a bit of self-esteem someone said emotional dildo yeah they did say emotional dildo and we quite loved that

i'm quite sure what they meant by that but i do love it well that's what i said i said emotional dildo i love it but i don't understand it just sounds good doesn't it so it's like they're fucking yeah they're they want you to fuck them but this is what i don't get it's like it's weird isn't it yeah well they're just kind of fucking around with your emotions and like they're just using your emotions as something to just fuck around with yeah a bit of a buffer zone if you can work out the metaphor tell us how it works because i'd love to use it i think i think it's up for interpretation let's do some analysis the emotional dildo is yeah so you're the emotional dildo so they want you oh hang on do you know i

mean it's like i would be like the dildo almost to me has an aggressive connotation oh so it would be like they're fucking you but actually it's like they're getting all the pleasure from you being the emotional dildo that's it yeah yeah yeah that's what i'm saying you're just you're just waiting around on their bedside table they're beckoned cold to be like kind of shoved in their arsehole every now and then like annoying and now you're covered in shit no one asked for that shit and period blood what a mess i really like this person said it's just to kind of tie into what we were saying about like leaving a situation they said although it can hurt walking away you realize how much of yourself you lost while in it and this bit i really like they said they can be extremely difficult walking away from

because baby you got manipulated baby i'm just saying yeah baby so true though very hard to see when you're in it i think everyone likes to think oh you can't manipulate me yeah you can everyone can be manipulated is it like a challenge anyone you watch me walking away in itself is painful walking away choosing to be like i am leaving this thing out of my life from now on but then also on top of that yet you have the height the hindsight of going i lost myself like i where was i do i trust myself now like what am i rebuilding from what like it's not just like now i leave you out of my life and i continue it's like no no you're back to you're having to reevaluate how you changed and who you were before you met that person or before the dynamic got toxic or whatever so it's like this weird loss of them but also loss of

yourself and your perception of yourself is like change forever because now it's like wait am i this real like manipulatable moldable person that just will go with whoever i talk to but it's like that's not the case it's just fucking weird to realize that you lost a part of yourself or like even potentially quite a lot of yourself because of another person i think for me as a human being part of that experience for me is the acceptance that I'm going to be changed by other people. That's stunning. Because, well, what else is this life without it? Remember we saw it was like a world without vulnerability or like your life without being vulnerable.

Like there's a lot less pain. Yeah, fine. You're going to escape a load of pain, but you're also going to escape a load of love. Yeah. pain yeah fine you're gonna escape a load of pain but you're also gonna escape a load of love yeah i'd rather have full relationships and like commit to real love fun flawed intense humans yeah yeah i'd rather have that and know that like sometimes it's gonna hurt or like i'm not it's gonna be pleasant all the time i'd rather and you're both gonna fuck up in that dynamic yeah yeah and across all relationships completely i

entirely agree i think it's just part of it's just what it is to be human you you're wired for connection but it's also stressful i think it's also stressful to realize that you are more fluid than you thought in a way or like you are more moldable like impressionable whatever word you want to put on it than you thought like if you identify as somebody that is sure of themselves all the things you're told to be in life confident sure of yourself you're stable you're not a pushover you're authentic you're whatever then it is quite jarring to realize oh but when i'm with them i act fucking different and it doesn't mean that it feels like wrong or you're acting or anything but it's the realization that you change depending on

who you talk to in a natural way but i do think it's jarring to be like yeah wait so when i've been camping for a week i have different habits to when i'm at home for a week it's like oh that's weird like who who's the real one but the truth is like they're both the real one you're fluid so i think even like if you take that out of like camping or like life experiences, it's like, so when I'm with this friend for a week, I have different behaviours than when I'm with this friend for a week. And it's like, it's not really a problem

until any of those behaviours are like painful. Exactly. It's a jarring realisation, but I think the sooner you can have that realisation, the better, because then it's a free game for you to decide who do you want to surround yourself with? Because it has a big impact on everyone. everyone you're not exempt everybody i think the most

independent or like headstrong or confident or secure people are the ones that know that they are changeable are fluid yeah there is so much strength in that i think that's something i'm realizing because i remember actually on the pattern the app the pattern it's just one of those fucking apps that just seems to know too much it's like did they go through my diary when they wrote this like what the hell but one of the things like it says like your life your the goal of your life is it's just fun and you shouldn't take these things too seriously but I do and it said the goal of your life like everyone had like sort of lovely things that the goal of your life is self-love or the goal of your life is um joy and like all of these stunning things

and i remember going on my me like oh what's my goal life goal like click your relationships and i thought how dare the goal of my life yeah be other people i'm fuming i'm absolutely fuming even though it's written by some guy is written by like fucking elon musk like he doesn't know he's talking about but i was like annoyed that it's like why do i get the shitty like the goal of what i'm trying to learn here is to have relationships like fuck off can it not be about me it's my life i'm the star of this show but then i do think actually there is some acceptance pattern aside which obviously is an app there is something really important about learning that your relationships form you

and you're not this independent island that is like unshakable and no one else can have an input well someone who would have that reaction is seems like someone who needs to hear that yeah literally literally i think that's something about potentially having a preoccupation with like strength like independence and strength then it's like well i'm not gonna be changed by anyone like i know what i'm doing on my own i don't need anyone but then it's like actually when you open up your world to be like maybe i this person did impact me and maybe i learned a lot from that which that changed me in this way or maybe and even like smaller things like maybe i only like drinking iced coffee because i had drank it once with this person and that changed me i thought they were cool and all of that stuff it's like it's actually quite empowering to realize the impact that loads of your different

relationships had on you and formed you yeah you're a product of them it's the only way really so who are you gonna be true to yourself in each moment choose wisely that's the only option you have yeah and this is the same not the same thing but it kind of leads into the thing about the thing that we talk about like i'm a morning person or like i'm an empath yeah what label are you going to give yourself because you're giving everyone else toxic yeah so what does that mean for you what are you labeling yourself as is it positive yeah and probably the truth is that you are as toxic as them in other relationships and yeah sure there are fucking abusive relationships and i'm not saying that you should gaslight yourself out of knowing that something is abusive if something feels wrong it probably is wrong but just on the level of a friend using

you as their personal life raft that they're drowning you whilst to keep themselves afloat it's like have you not done that have you not done that because yeah you didn't in that dynamic and you know how it fell but then did you go to the did you go to your mum after that and do that it's like this stuff is a lot of this stuff is like it's easy to be like you're toxic but it's like uh-huh really are we gonna take get out our mirrors for a second well it's easy to point the finger and cancel someone i'm holding them accountable whilst your fingers are covered in blood yeah you've been fingering someone on their period emotional dildo i'm liking this app yeah i am as always loving it i do have something that i really

liked that someone said oh it sounded like you're gonna i do have something that's gonna throw a spanner in the works make you hate this episode yeah go on no no no um i have a good well something someone says i think is really good so they said my friends being subtly passive aggressive for example the use of the word little before anything oh And I thought that is such one of those things, where it's like, oh, look at you in your little outfit. I was going to say, you've said that before. Yeah, you've used that exact example, actually. Little.

Yeah. Oh, look, you've just got your little coffee. Oh, I love your little shoes. Very patronising. Yeah, yeah. You're off to your little job. Oh, you've got your little podcast. Your little podcast.

Your little podcast. That is insane. Oh, you're going to record your little podcast. Rudely accurate. I'm there with my fucking lumberjack hammer there you go you're out of my fucking literally burn that bridge but i think that is something that i've seen people i've seen i've had that in convo i've had that i'll get a little i'll love you a little top it's not a little top yeah yeah and i think that's something that you should communicate rather than that being like a toxic person of course that could be toxic that sounds like it's not going great if that's a repeated use of word that is very passive aggressive but i also think that's so something

that someone wouldn't wouldn't necessarily like realize they said well it's probably they're probably drowning sounds like it they're probably in choppy waves scared of sharks and now they're gonna use your head they don't even they don't know they just see this oh there's a little life jacket here i'm just gonna press on it's fucking rose and jack on the door they think it's just an innocent literally that but i just thought that was good a little example little example just put down her put down her example that's funny um do you have an example of what would you describe any of your relationships or any experiences you've had with someone as toxic i was thinking about this in the shower when i was washing out my hair dye just now because i knew we were recording um you need to dye her

hair for me i really well i just thought you know when you wake up with just the itch to dye it did your little hair dye put on a little outfit for me i was thinking that i i don't know if i've had toxic people but i've had toxic dynamics i definitely had some earlier in life because i think now i am quick to deal with it i'm quick to identify there's something unsaid here let's spill i definitely think i'm one of those people which in the similar way to saying like i don't like i don't want to give people fake dynamic. Yeah. I think I'm actually incapable of having people I don't like in my life. Oh my god. Brutally honest. I can't bear it. If I don't get on with someone I won't see them again. Like I like to the point where it's almost a bit like someone could say one thing and

I think I've made up my mind just like I just don't like them. I don't want to see them. Which I can be too brutal when I know. Or like that makes me sound mean no it's fine live your truth but it's kind of not my truth live your judgy truth it's not even my truth though that's the thing it's not even my truth live your bitchy truth sassy go on show them i like most people but some people just rub me the wrong way straight away and i just think wow you're never i'm never gonna see you again you're in your right it's fine and people like they're fine they're fine and i just think I don't like them and I'm not going to see them. So I think I don't have many toxic unsaid things or like there are things maybe that need to be said still, but I just think they're not inherently toxic. Like there's a lot, the only

reason I would have toxic things left in my life is because there's the amount of love I have there is like so outweighing what is unsaid and it's like I need to work through things but almost the amount of love there is like I'm not gonna cut you it's not destructive it's actually progressive you're being productive by keeping them and yeah I do think like earlier in life I've definitely had dynamics almost like a competitive relationship which is so vile like a competitive friendship and those are the pits they really are the pits yeah they are the pits because you can't win the only way to win it essentially is to drop out of the race because otherwise you do this thing where it's like you win one and it's like yes i feel great and then they win one it's like oh fuck i need to get it back and it's like it's

just this horrible thing you're competing with someone're competing with someone, it's not a friendship. It's not a friendship at all. You're competitors. You're not friends. You're competitors. You're enemies. You're enemies. So I think I've definitely had those before, which I, the only way to break this one that

I had was just to be like, you win. You absolutely win everything. And I drop out. I literally resign from this competition um she's getting her gold medal and i'm just like no i'll clap you on in the audience perfect perfect and it's the only way to do it because otherwise otherwise it's tonya harding yeah exactly exactly and i don't want to win i don't think that's a fun prize to win best person in the friendship god the winner of the the competitive friendship is like i don't want this thing anyway

and i luckily wasn't that close to this person so it was fine but if i think it would be really painful if you had like a very close person that developed like a competitive thing it's the only reason we can do this is because we're not in competition there's no competition there's no um battle between us i want what's best for you and you want what one was best for me or do i i'm saying that i did kind of want a yes back no yes of course go start saying fucking hell maybe we're done because i've actually got uh we've got a busy weekend this weekend oh yeah okay so busy thing is they're gonna hear this after but we are planning on going live on sunday from brighton so i'm gonna go see wing in brighton which is so fun see her new house see her new rug so fun yep see the rug see her new rug i

can't wait come swim with sharks with me more excited to see that rug than i'm to see i am to see you to be honest i'm gonna literally get into your house and just lie down on that rug so we've got that planned that's so fucking fun and i'm going to a festival before so i'm gonna be hungover. Yeah, very fun. Yeah, you're going to be a mess. I'll nurse you back to health. And I might see this guy the night before.

Yeah, the baby. The baby, the baby guy. So I'm going to be knackered on the Monday. It's quite the ordeal, yeah. And I'm going to drain you to fuck. Prepared to be drained. And I can't wait. No one I'd rather be drained by.

Okay, cool. What if you guys don't hear from us? Can I quickly, actually quickly actually before you assume the worst i just want to say thank you so much for everyone who listened yeah so i guess that's you and thank you to everyone who sent in things just thank you for being here i can't even explain thank you thank you thank you thank you you have no idea have the best day have the best best best best day now assume the worst now you can assume the worst now you can assume the worst