Gone Medieval - Childbirth in Medieval Times with Kate Lister

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

This episode contains explicit language and graphic descriptions of birthToday we're delving into historical childbirth's stark realities, facing the medieval attitudes toward childbirth, its dangers, and grizzly details. Dr. Eleanor Janega pays a visit to our sister podcast Betwixt the Sheets to be the guest of its presenter Dr. Kate Lister, and they explore the life of midwives, including their crucial role, training, and societal perceptions. They also touch on unique aspects such as the medical practices of nuns, the evolving understanding of childbirth, and the heartbreaking prevalence of maternal and infant mortality.Dr Kate Lister is a sex historian and host of our sister podcast Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society. Over on her pod, there are new episodes twice a week every week, and Kate explores everything from witch trials, to the sex lives of kings and queens, to scandals which change the course of history. Check it out if you haven’t already.MORE:The Real Joan of Arc with Dr. Kate Listerhttps://open.spotify.com/episode/2wgZwZ7RZt5d6AZOeLih2bMedieval Sex Workhttps://open.spotify.com/episode/0GDgtPZjN02v5Sf9fyv4jKGone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. It was edited by Tom Delargy and Amy Haddow, the producer is Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanorianica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were. And how we got here.

As a society, we don't really like to think about childbirth. There's good reasons for that. It's dangerous and painful, and we actually just want to focus on babies rather than what people have to go through in order to produce them. But the thing is, as dangerous and difficult as childbirth is even now, we have absolutely. absolutely nothing on our medieval forebearers. And interestingly, they were a lot less shy about talking about the often grisly realities behind the childbed. Not only were average people a lot more familiar with what the process of giving birth looked

like and meant, they were also a lot quicker to ask whether or not someone was actually ready to put themselves through all of that. I was invited out of the Gone Medieval Dungeon by my wonderful friend and colleague, the indomitable Dr. Kate Lister. to have a chat about medieval childbirth on our sister podcast betwixt the sheets. We managed to get through medieval attitudes to sex, death, and why considering saving your virginity for Jesus looked like a pretty good idea in the medieval period.

But a word of warning, because we are talking about childbirth, it can get a little grisly. And because it's me and Kate, well, the language might be a little bit more adult than usual. So you might want to have a listen before deciding whether this is an episode that younger listeners might want to hear. And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheaves. It's only Eleanor Janager. How are you doing?

Well, you know, anytime they let me out of the gone medieval dungeon, I'm delighted. So I'm doing great, babes. Great. Welcome back to the sunlight. Thank you. Wow, you've got some here. What's that like? Oh, it's very nice, yeah, in the bright world.

But we're not here to talk about such nonsense. We are here to talk about different nonsense. Medieval midwives, childbirth, all kinds of scary things. Yeah, look, I mean, the vibes are kind of not great. Yeah, if you sneak up behind the average woman in the street and just read, medieval childbirth, which goes, ah! Yeah, oh, 100%. Right?

Doesn't have to be a medieval scholar and nothing. No. You know, we know. We know. Things like, well, like even today, like one of my closest maids, Jen recently had a baby, and like I was so supportive. But even I had moments when she was talking about things like vaginal tearing and stitching and apotheotomies and just and that's today, 2025.

Yeah, you know, we have come a long way. And I mean, yeah, we're going to talk about medieval childbirth, but I'm going to be so real with you, babes. Like if it's before the 20th century, I'm not interested. No, God. Like, no. I'm not even interested now. But, you know, like, this is the thing.

It's like, all you got to do is like study historical childbirth. And you're like, you know, I'm good. Yep. No, no. It's really, it's a one-way system. That's all happening here. Just got, but there are plenty of people listening who have had babies. Yeah.

And like, God bless you. Well done. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for your service. Bravely than the troops. Et cetera. So, yeah, like, it is one of those things where if you consider how difficult and

painful and frankly dangerous, it still is. Still is. I'm still scary. Yeah, very much. So, you know, all you have to do really is ask, you know, like, what is your story from giving birth? And there's still, you know what I've noticed? Every single mate I've had who's had a baby. When I've actually asked that question, what was the birth like?

They can't remember. It's like the body, like, blocked it out. It's like something, I don't know if there's some actual scientific research behind this, or just all of my friends went for the drug option. But like, they don't remember. And I think maybe that is some kind of, I'm off script now. But I think that might be some kind of evolutionary thing, because if you did actually remember, happened if you actually yeah well i was in excruciating agony for 52 hours kate that's how well you

wouldn't do that again you know it's a conspiracy of silence in my opinion i think it is i think it's a conspiracy of silence people don't talk about it because they don't want to put other people off but you know that's the exact opposite of how medieval people are getting on with it because medieval birth is so much more matter of fact really yeah because fundamentally medieval people don't have privacy No, they don't. That's something I've learned from talking to you. That changed how I think about a lot of these people. The concept of privacy. You're not going to be going anywhere to have your child. You're going to be having your child at home. There's no medieval maternity ward. No, and I mean, there are medieval hospitals, but the concept of the medieval hospital is super different to how it is now, where it's like they're kind of like inns. They're run by, you know, monks and nuns. I mean, fully, fully.

It's like, you know, there might be someone like giving birth, someone like, you know, dying of cancer. And then also you're like, oh, I just needed a place to stay. And then like some people, yeah, kind of having dinner downstairs. Fabulous stuff already, right? Okay. Great. So, I mean, that's not what's going to be happening for you. When you are having a child, you're going to be having this child in your own home.

You are probably going to be attended by the women you know. There has been research done. And I can't think of the proper title of it that shows that. home births, the more calm, the surroundings. Actually, that hypermedicalized environment, although very safe and necessary. Let's not put people off it. But actually being calmer in a home environment

can reduce stress and shorten labor. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is if you can like chill out. Yeah, right. That's probably good. Watch the telly. And, you know, so this is the thing is like, you know, your mom's going to be there. Maybe your mother-in-law, your sisters.

And I mean, the midwife is going to be there. And that's going to be who looks after it. And it doesn't matter who you are. Like, even if you are an incredibly wealthy queen, physicians don't really deal with this stuff. You basically have midwifery as a separate skill. Now, a physician might be called if something really wild goes down. Like that scene in Robin Hood print. Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, for the most part, it's just going to be women because this is very much considered a specialist occupation. and it is one that is taken incredibly seriously. And now, to be fair, midwives do more than just deliver babies. But that is really the one where it's always going to be them who is doing it. So that's kind of cool. There's like the specific medical field for women. Is it true that some nuns were midwives or some midwives were nuns? Yeah, absolutely, because the nuns are some of the women who are trained pretty extensively

in medical care. So again, hospitals, it might just be like a nunneries got beds. You know, very famously in Paris, the hotel, you is run by nuns. And so, like, there are all these nuns who will kind of, like, look in on you there. And so if you've got some expertise, you're going to be given more expertise. And this is also something that nuns can go do. You know, nuns are supposed to be enclosed.

They're just supposed to be hanging out and they're nunnery away from the world and not participating in society. But if you're going to attend a birth, this is considered, like, worthy and fine. And, you know, the Elder Garda Bingham writes rather a lot about midwifery as well. So, you know, I mean, Hildegar Bingen writes a lot about a lot. So that's probably not a surprise. She's just like the infinite monkeys. She's just got it.

Like she probably, I don't know. She's just the kind of person. She would just deliver several babies in between composing symphonies and recording her visions and whatever the fuck else she was doing. I know. God bless her. God bless that woman. I know what you're going to tell me now.

This is, because this is women's history. No fucker has bothered to write it down. Was there training for this? How would you get into being a midwife? It's quite specialist now. You can't just rock up and go. I am a midwife. Yeah, I mean, the thing is you're going to need a reputation and you are probably going to

train in a sort of apprenticed kind of manner. And yeah, you're right, we don't have a whole lot on this because it's like lady's stuff. No, thank you. Oh, gross. You know, kind of a deal. Call us when it's baptized. Yeah, exactly. And so we do know, though, that these women form a backbone of their community.

They show up in tax records. You know, we find these midwives who are working in different places. around the shop. And they are, yes, delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized health care for the community, right? So this is going to be the woman that you go see when you've got a cough, right? The midwife is going to be called. You're not getting a physician, like, especially if, I don't know, you live in rural Scotland. It's like a wise woman type of thing. Yeah, it is. Wise woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, yo, like, if you are a trained physician, like say you went to the school at Salerno, whereas there's like one, like you didn't go there

so that you could be like, oh, I can't wait to practice rural medicine in like Northumbria. No, that's not. And those people wouldn't have been able to afford someone like that anyway. No. So it's like you go, you do that and then you go to court. Okay. Or you hang out in a city where there's a lot of rich merchants and that's who you attend to. So the great majority of medical help that is happening is by people like midwives.

And also, frankly, you want a midwife so much more than you want as a physician because yeah, here's the thing. about medieval medicine. It's not real. No, it's mad. Yeah. Properly mental. Yeah.

And I mean, to be fair, like now this is like the provisor that I always say, it's not just medieval people. You know, they were getting it from the Romans and the Greeks. And like, basically it takes until the 19th century for any medicine to be like workable.

And even now to date, you have to remember that advice changes all the time. Mm-hmm. All the time. Absolutely. You know, like all you got to do is like think about diets. Like how many times have we gone back and forth

on whether or not you should be eating eggs, right? You know, like, and these things are constantly going on, right? I was watching a sitcom from the 70s over the weekend, The Good Life, and it was interesting to a top, top tier. Top, yes. But it was interesting just to watch. That was in 1975, and it's so weird watching it of how much things have changed. So there was an episode where Tom does his back in and the advice is to lie completely immobile on the floor. And that's exact opposite now.

Yeah, they move around. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. So that is also kind of like the difference between if you've, got medicine like physicians are learning at universities, that is going to be a lot more rigid because it's going to be a lot more, oh, well, let us go back and see what Hippocrates wrote about this. Like, let us go back to the ancients because there's this great reverence for classical

medicine and an idea that that must be better. Whereas if you're going to a midwife in your village, she's going to be like, this works real good. Yeah. You know, I know, I know that if you boil up willow bark and you drink it, it's going to help your headache. You know, I know that L campaign seems to help to treat lung afflictions. You know, these are things that you see work. Yeah. And yeah, you'll be taught this by whoever it is you're apprenticing with and whoever it is you're working alongside.

But these are also things that you might be tinkering with around the joint. And, you know, you as a midwife are going to need to know how to do things like stitch things up. And so that is going to be. I know. That's a great, you know, demand, you know, being able to be. do stitches is being able to do stitches. That's great. So these women are really kind of like the front line of what health care is in the medieval

period. And every day of the week, I would rather have one of them than like some court physician who is going to be like, yeah, yeah. Without. I just think it would have been the kind of thing that like was passed down families. Like you do it because your mother did it. And you could. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's super, super common. It's really common for there to be just like a family of people who do this. So. So I'm trying to think like actually. of the birthing experience. It sucked.

It sucked. I mean, all the people listening to this that have had babies. And if you ask your friends, have had babies and all this stuff, have just taught them about their birth if they remember it. And all the things that happened that if it wasn't for modern medicine,

would have been fucking nightmare. My mate, Sam, split from fucking keel to stern. Oh, God, yeah. Like, I'm one of four because my parents are idiots. I love you. Mom and Dad, thank you. But like all of us either tried to kill our mother or almost died, like all of us.

And if it was the medieval period, she would have just been gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like my sister was breach. My mother's blood wouldn't clot with me. My older younger brother, umbilical cord around the neck. My youngest brother, 11 pounds, three ounces. Holy moly. Which is, you know, we're a big family. Wow. Wow.

So, yeah, like all of this. So, you know, if you just kind of consider how difficult and dangerous. it is now, it's even more at the time, right? But the thing is, they were super matter of fact about it. Because I think one of the big differences between like today and then is everyone goes, oh, sweetie, it's fine. Actually, it's the most natural thing in the world. Well, it's so beautiful.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, that does make it beautiful, honey, right? And I think that now we really tend to downplay the dangers of childbirth because, you know, yeah, we're trying not to freak women out. But like, I don't know, you could use a little bit of being freaked out, right? Like, I mean, there's, there's, you know, don't freak people out. And there's, like, also, let's be reasonable. Let's not surprise them. Yeah, like, this is, I think that a lot of people are kind of surprised when they get there.

And it's, like, dangerous and horrifying and you almost die. Yeah. You know, and so medieval people are like, yeah, no, it's bad, right? Okay. So there's this particular medieval document that I love that is called a letter on virginity or the helly midfitt or, like, don't get mad at me. My middle English is rubbish. And it is a specific work that is like, girl do not get married.

Like dedicate your life to Christ. And it's talking very specifically about like all of the shock and horror of what goes along with being a wife and mother. And they're like, you think you want to bang and you do. But you're going to get knocked up and then you're going to have to give birth. And it goes into detail being like pregnancy sucks. It sucks in his ass. And you're going to want to puke the whole time and you're still going to have to be

plowing the field and your useless husband is still going to be like, where's dinner? And you're still going to have like do all of these things even though you feel awful. And then you're going to give birth and it's going to be awful. It's even if you survive, which is a pretty big if. I mean, we're talking about kind of like a 50, 50 chance at the time. You know, even if you survive that, they're like, and then you're left with a kid. And then you got to look after it. And then, you know, it's going to disappoint you someday by like being a weird little slut.

and you know it's going to grow up to be just like you girl so just don't do it don't do it right and so this is like a specific thing where it just goes on and on and on and it's like and do you understand what it's like when your water breaks like do you understand what it's like when like you're woman who'd had a baby yeah I mean well or either that or who had been around it enough and just like do you get that like you are going to soil yourself in front of everyone while you're giving birth do you get that do you understand that it's going to like tear you apart do you is that something that you understand? It's not just a cute little baby at the end. This is a really visceral process. And they were a lot more upfront about that. And now, granted, this is 100% a tract that is like anti-natalists. They're like, don't have children. And, you know, a lot of religious works are like, you shouldn't be doing that.

Like, you know, the ideal medieval Christian is a virgin, right? I think it's St. Jerome says that, like, he praises the office of marriage because it gives him virgins. where it's like, well, you people messed up, but like more virgins might be born. And then I know, he's the worst. He's just such a tool. I know. Well, you know, he's like, his kink is beating himself with rocks instead of beating off. And, you know, I'm not going to kink shame.

Well, I am. He's a tool. But the thing is, I want to be careful that we don't like completely stigmatized childbirth in the middle ages. Because quite obviously, they managed it. We're all the walking, living, breathing proof that some people, at least, and quite a lot of people successfully gave birth, what was their process like? I mean, would you have had a medieval birthing plan? Would you have had like a medieval birthing pool or one of those balls to bounce on? I mean, usually one of the big things that you have is a chair.

Oh, a chair? Yeah, so like a chair is like a birthing chair is a really big thing. Is that good or bad? Is that like a mad thing that they had that they thought was good? I think it's actually pretty good because like one of the things that we're kind of learning now, for example, is that like the laying down thing isn't necessarily great. So their idea was like, yo, you want to use gravity in your favor. So it's kind of like, so if you sit up, if you can like get on this chair and you know, you're not always going to want to get on the chair because you're going to be in like great pain.

But if you can sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down along with the contractions. We need midwives and gynecologist to email into the show just to let us know if that, if the chair was a bad idea or a good. idea. And yeah, and they, I know. Gravity sounds, that sounds sensible to me. Burthing pool, not so much just because, I mean, like, granted, you could fill up the tub with, uh, with, with water, but like, it's probably going to cool down and then you're going to have to keep replacing it. And it's eventually going to, it's going to get, yeah, and when you're

carrying water the whole time. Yeah. Water's really annoying. Now, you might end up just giving birth in bed. That's super common as well. You know, uh, that's a big place to do it because you're so uncomfortable, you're like, no, I will not stand up. Thank you. No, not going to happen. But as a general rule, you're going to be giving birth in your own home and like someone's going to go get the midwife. That's what's going to happen. Like, you know, your mother-in-law or your sister or whoever is going to look after you and then someone's going to go run, get the midwife, and then she's going to come in and take over. And what that means can be, you know, anything. You know, you can have a relatively straightforward birth. and she is just going to be like, yeah, great job, girl, like rub you back, you know, kind of a deal.

There are other things that can happen. So, for example, we know that, you know, in order to avoid vaginal tearing, for example, they will, like, oil you up. Like, that's a big thing that kind of happens is, like, the hope that this is going to, like, prevent tears from happening. They will be keeping an eye on the baby, like, in case it is, you know, breach or something like that. And, you know, they'll get in there and just kind of try to manipulate it, move it around.

if it's gone into the wrong position. So that's something that they are super clear on. But for the most part, this is kind of an at-home deal where we're just going to see what we see once we get there, right? Did they do that lying in thing? Or was that a rich person deal? Like when you know, when you shut themselves away in like a little room with no windows or light and lots of incense?

Peasant girls ain't got no room. No, there's no time. No, they've just got a peasant girls live in one room, which like sometimes in the winter there's a cow at one end right you know like granted they're in like little stall thing it's not like in the same room you know but everybody lives in one big room

for the most part so no I mean like you'll probably lay down for a couple of days just because of you know the trauma but they're not it's not going to be that whole like lying in we cover up all the windows here's some incense da da da that's for queens you know that's for ladies it's not for

your average individual who is just going to have have to be in their house in the best way that they can be, frankly. Confirmament. That was the word I was looking for. Yeah. That sounds fucking awful, by the way. Yeah.

Oh, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think. And this is the thing that confinement is a really interesting one because that lasts for ages as an idea. Yeah. I mean, it's, Jesus, it's such a difficult thing in medical history because like basically absolutely nothing worked until we figured out germs exist. But they were still doing all this weird stuff anyway.

And you're like, yeah, it's not until the 19th century that any of this gets better. You just lie there in a bed for like a month, maybe more, waiting for this thing to kick off. And they're like, please don't get postpartum depression, have fun. Why would nuns make good midwives? Well, nuns make good midwives because in the first place, they are dedicated to serving their communities. They are the sort of people who can sit around and read the text in order to learn about these things. And also, in cases of extramists, where you have a baby who is, been born, but it's not looking good. And they very well may die, which is incredibly common.

You know, let us keep in mind that until we invent vaccines, 50% of all children are going to die before they are the age of two. And it's incredibly common with newborns for them to die. And so you would be happy to have a nun because a nun in this case is authorized to perform baptism. Oh, that's handy. Yeah. Wait, no, that sounds like a bigger deal than I thought that was then, because only priests were allowed to do. Yeah, ordinarily. Yeah. And you have some cases where when stuff gets really bad. So like, for example, during the Black Death, they'll be like, if you can't get a priest, just get a Christian. And then they can do these things.

And then if you can't find a Christian, like, man, I guess a woman could do it. Like if someone is dying, you can hear someone's last confession. You know, like, you can go find a woman. But here is a case where they're like, well, yeah, it's more likely that you're going to have a nun around than it is to like go fetch a priest. And then if you've got to go fetch a priest, then you're also wasting time. And everybody agrees it's really important to get the baby baptized so that they don't end up in purgatory. So, you know, that is something that it's a rare example of where women get to have a little bit more spiritual power, specifically in the birthing room.

So are the nuns trained in, I guess, not just push and breathe, but surgery as well? Like, caesarians. As caesarians, this is the big thing, right? And so let's keep in mind that a cesarian at the time, you know, like again, up until essentially like the 20th century, you do cesareans when it's like, she ain't going to make it. Right. Like it's over for wifey. Like she is probably already, she's going to be dead. Like she's dead.

And you're like, okay, we've got to get to this baby. And odds are babies also going to die. That's what the odds are. But what you want to do is make sure it gets baptized. So you get in there to get the baby to make sure that it is. baptized so that it goes to heaven. So that is when someone would perform a cesarean section. And again, this is something that's really handy to have a nun who is trained up here because she can cut you open and she can also do the baptism really quickly. And because odds are the baby, if it's got

to this incredibly difficult situation, odds are the baby is going to die as well. But we're still thinking about the pastoral needs of the baby. And this is as much a form of health. care as is seeing to the corporeal needs of either the mother or child. Because it was almost certain death, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. You wouldn't do that unless you knew it was absolute curtains. And even then, you'd probably still be holding out hoping it would be okay. Yeah, I mean, like, fundamentally, this doesn't happen unless mom's dead.

And we're worried because the baby's too far in and there's like no amount of, like, gravity that's going to get them out. It's grim, isn't it? It's grim. Don't you love having me on? Oh. Oh, so would this have been primarily a woman-only space then? I mean, for the most part, this is one of these circumstances where we just see a lot of chicks rocking, you know?

Like, you are probably going to have like your husband tottle along once or twice in certain occasions. But for the most part, they're like, get out of here. Go take the other kids and go to your dad's house or something like that, right? Like, go make yourself useful. And so that is something that certainly would exist now, probably especially for poorer families. So it's going to be a little bit less of that. But this is a kind of time and place where women are hanging out around other women. And like that is who the crowd is.

From what you're saying, it sounds like midwives are quite important people. So I'm assuming that they were very widely respected and given a lot of kudos in the community and not accused of being witches at any point. Now, I want to be clear that medieval people really don't do that. Oh, yes. Sorry. Early modern problem. Anti-early modern action.

Sorry. So, yeah, but this is... Slipping there into that myth. And this is a really important one, though. It's because we do see, when we hit the early modern period, we do see that more midwives end up getting persecuted as witches. But there's a very specific thing here, right? Okay.

Whereas it's not just any midwife. Like, midwives exist the entire time, like across the early modern period midwives are still around. Periodically executing all the midwives. Yeah. You know who you appear? Execute the midwives who do abortions. Ooh. Because medieval people are a lot more chill on the whole abortion front.

Medieval people are like, well, so true, besty. Like, you do be having to have abortions from now and that. And medieval church way chiller about abortions than you would think. They're basically like, you know, it's a freebie up to three months. Yeah, they had this idea about the quickening. Yeah. And they're like, don't get me wrong. They're not like, yes, I love abortions.

That's my favorite thing. But they are like, look fundamentally, we know things happen. You might have too many children. And what they see as probable in circumstances where people cannot feed their children, which is a real concern at the time, is infanticide. And they see that as a probable outcome because it is probable. Because infanticide is incredibly high when you can't access, you know, abortion services. And so a lot of midwives are like, also, this is a thing. that I do. And that is usually a kind of intervention that is like a, for example, drinking

penny royalty. Yeah. Am I right in thinking that like the quickening around about three months? That was when they thought that the soul enters. And to that up until that point, it's like it's not a Christian. There's no soul. No. Whatever you do doesn't care. But after that, then things then things get. And it's like from there, like it kind of like goes up and up and up. I mean, like not that women are really usually. attempting to like abort pregnancies after six months, but it's like it would get worse and worse and worse, right? Yeah.

In terms of what penance is. But penance is usually like surprisingly light for the first three months and they're just like, yeah, please don't kill babies. That would be cool. Like, you know, just get an abortion. It'll be fine. That changes after we invent Protestants because Protestants and Catholics are like, I'm the holy one.

No, you're not holy. I'm holy. No. And then they're like, you would do abortions. No, I wouldn't. you would know, I bet you, that sounds like something you would do. And then they're like, so it turns into like the spiritual arms race or slap fight, you know, kind of thing. And so then everyone goes, no abortions. That is it. Ruined it. Yeah, exactly. And so then you go after

the midwives who were doing abortions. And that is very specifically the group of midwives who are persecuted as the ones doing abortion services. Not any texts left to us by any, were midwives able to write? Was there any man that wanted to write for a midwife? We have any textual evidence, any medieval version of Calla Midwife? I mean, the number one, it's going to be your girl Trotto, Salerno and the Trotula, right? And now, granted, we think that she very well may have been an actual physician. She very well may have been educated at Salerno, but she writes this OBGYN treaties, which tells you very expressly how they're like, well, this is what you do about a breached baby. This is what you do about tearing. This is how you care for mothers afterwards. And it goes

really step by step about what it is you're supposed to do. And this is, you know, the equivalent of a medieval bestseller. This survives to us in absolutely tons of copies. I mean, after the original text gets written that tells you all these important OBGYN things, then later on, they're like, and here's how you curl your hair. And people like add to it. And they're like, yeah, this is the eminent midwife was also like, here's how you make lips. like, yeah, sure, bro. It's different people. Yeah, different people.

But it kind of travels together as like, here is the one-stop shop for ladies and things that you'll need to do. So it's interesting because there is also with this, we kind of see there's kind of an understanding that like women are going to need to know a little bit about what's due generally because you're going to be at somebody's birth at some point in time helping out. And you can't lay it all at the feet of the midwife. Do we have anything in the records about women?

what happens to them their bodies after they because sometimes you read some records of how many births somebody's had it's not super duper common but like I've come across women wasn't medieval as 80th century and she'd had 34 children you get into some clown car situations pretty quickly yeah I just think like what did that do like even if even if she didn't require stitches but how could you not like what that must have done to her body yeah I mean we certainly it's not not uncommon to see women who have had like, you know, 13 kids, 16 kids, you know, like this sort of thing. Like that is very, very common. And I mean, I think of the thing that sort of happens there is that your body does, to an extent, get used to it where it's like, oh, we're doing

this again, right? You're going to have less tearing, you know, and if you are the sort of person who has been, like, really maimed by the situation, you might not be a sort of person who gets pregnant again. You know, you might be like, yeah, that's cool that Jesus says we need to do that. Absolutely not. We are not ejaculating inside of anything. Right. Like, so you, there are ways of doing, getting around that, right? I often think like, because this, this is not a history that's, that's written down because, and it's still something that people struggle to talk about today, actually. I don't think it's spoken about nearly enough is the vaginal damage and the internal damage that can be done. I mean, they must have been like incontinent and tears and fistulers and all kinds

of internal injuries. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one of the things that we have really good records on from the medieval period that they do a lot of surgery on is very specifically fistula. Oh, wow. So like fistula and ano, the run where you kind of like get a fistula through to your anus, which is super common as a result of problematic pregnancies. That's one of the first things where everyone was like, we need to sit down and write up how you deal with this. So there are surgical practices very specifically to address that. But yeah, absolutely. And it is, though, as you say, the sort of thing that you just don't talk about, right? Like, it's a, on the first place, it's happening to women. So is it happening? I don't, I didn't hear anything, you know, right? So you

wouldn't talk about that. In the second place, you know, it's kind of like private stuff. So you're not necessarily going to talk about it. And then in the third place, it's so common that it doesn't even necessarily require talking about, right? You know, now for us in the global north, that would be a lot more of an anomaly and something that you would talk about. But, you know, it's still something that is a real problem for women in the global south, for example. So, like, access to really good health care around birth is still incredibly limited by where you live. So there's a final question then. When did things start to shift that birth became increasingly medicalized.

And I don't want to be, you know, a crusty person being like, yeah, we should all be at home on a lily pad and being worse. I think that, I think that actually medical intervention is a good thing. But also there is an argument to say that we do overly medicalize this. And now the idea that you just go into hospital to have a baby, that's the done thing. But when did it stop being like Betty up the road that you'd just go and get? That's an enlightenment issue. So, you know, with the enlightenment, you know, everyone is.

like, we're doing science now, guys. It's science time. Stand bad, ladies. It was not science. You know, like, until the 19th century, it's like, you're still just doing, like, you know, humoral theory with more steps. But one of these things that we begin to see, especially at the end of the Middle Ages, is an increasing professionalization of physicians in particular.

So whereas before, you could be like, I spent a couple of weeks at Salerno and I'm a physician now or whatever. that begins to get tightened up. And so Kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university. Fair. So that means that women increasingly do not have access. Unfair. Yeah.

Now, it still happens. You know, we'll still see like women, for example, we've got women on record in Paris, for example, who are basically suing to say, like, look, I'm trained, let me in. I should be able to say that I'm a physician, that kind of thing. Is that something you wrote about in your book? Yes. my book, The Once in Future Sex, we treat this in my chapter on, you know, women's roles in society. So, you know, like what it means to be a wife and mother, you know, so yeah, absolutely. But they were trained.

Oh, yeah, absolutely trained. And we know this and when we've got their names, right? But this becomes increasingly untenable as you hit the Enlightenment, where, you know, the universities really become much larger. And then suddenly universities begin giving medical degrees. So right, like you and I as the correct kind of doctor, the original kind of doctor, like a doctor originally met someone who had a PhD. And physicians were physicians. Right. And then you kind of start seeing later, especially kind of like 18th century, 19th century, physicians are now suddenly called doctor, whereas they were not previously.

Okay. And so when all of this comes in, that's when we see women increasingly excluded. And then like especially in kind of like the 19th century, 20th century, then it's going to be like more doctor. doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors. So particularly in the kind of post-war period in the global north, it's much more going to be like you go to a hospital, you see a doctor, there isn't really going to be a midwife so much. And that can vary from place to place.

So that's certainly more true, for example, in the States than it is here. And, you know, call the midwife is a great program for a reason. And it's a great book, actually. I read the book of that before it came out and it was fascinating. Yeah, brilliant stuff. So, you know, midwives certainly always existed along those lines. but, you know, we just kind of have changed our ways of thinking about what birth is and, you know, who is an expert. Well, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. It's been absolutely horrifying.

Oh, well, you know, I aim to horrify. Thanks so much to Kate Lister once again for having me. And thank you for listening to Gaul Medieval from History Hit. If you're interested in the world of medieval childbirth, why not check out our past episode on medieval medicine? Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film The Medieval Apocalypse, released weekly, and ad-free podcasts by signing up at historyhit.com forward slash subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions,

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