Gone Medieval - Hattori Hanzo: The Medieval Demon Samurai

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Matt Lewis presents a special episode from his podcast Echoes of History on the medieval 'Demon' Samurai.In the world of Assassin's Creed Shadows, the legendary Hattori Hanzo embodies both samurai and shinobi warriors, and earned himself the nickname "The Demon".How did Hattori Hanzo reach such legendary status? How were his loyalties tested as both samurai and shinobi? And what does his story tell us about late Sengoku Japan?Joining Matt Lewis to answer these questions and more are Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt, authors of Ninja Attack!: True Tales Of Assassins, Samurai And Outlaws.You can keep up to date with Hiroko and Matt's work on their blogs blog.hirokoyoda.com and blog.pureinventionbook.comEchoes of History is a Ubisoft podcast, brought to you by History Hit. Listen here.Hosted by: Matt LewisEdited by: Tim ArstallProduced by: Matt Lewis, Robin McConnell, Peta StamperSenior Producer: Anne-Marie LuffProduction Manager: Beth DonaldsonExecutive Producers: Etienne Bouvier, Julien Fabre, Steve Lanham, Jen Bennett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. You can keep a secret, right? You might know me as Matt Lewis, presenter of Gone Medieval, but you've been tricked. I am in fact a ninja, a Shinobi, a secret agent from another podcast, echoes of history, which dives into the history behind the worlds depicted in the Assassin's Creed games. Last week, Ubisoft launched their most recent game, Assassin's Creed Shadows, is set in feudal Japan, and it throws players into the fierce worlds of the samurai and the shinobi. Yes, ninjas. Over on Echoes of History, we've been exploring this fascinating world in some real depth. One of the brilliant and surprising conversations I had was about

Hattori Hanzo, one of the most feared samurai of the Sengoku era, who was also a Shinobi. I was thinking, who else loves a legendary historical character? And that's the most. Naturally, I thought of you guys, those who have gone medieval. So I adopted the Shinobi tactics I've learned and infiltrated the gone medieval feed to insert the story of a man known as the Demon Hanzo. So, before they catch me, here's just a taste of the riches echoes of history has to offer. I hope you enjoy it, and if you do, you can listen to the back catalogue covering a variety of games, periods and places, and subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Right. Welcome to Echoes of History, the place to explore the rich stories from the past that bring the world of Assassin's Creed to life. I'm Matt Lewis. For the next five weeks, join us as we return to the heart of medieval Japan, to the late Azuchi Mummiyama period, the tumultuous setting for the eagerly awaited Assassin's Creed shadows. With only weeks to go before the release of the game in February, we'll be delving into the era's intricate landscape. of power and ambition, myths and legends, preparing you as a player to experience it all for yourself in Assassin's Creed shadows. Later this week, I'll begin a special series of episodes

that take a close look at Samurai and Shinobi, the weapons they wielded, the battle tactics they used, their politics and culture. No stone will remain unturned as we discover just what separated and united. The two iconic warrens. classes of Japan. But first, what better way to dive back into the era of samurai and Shinobi shadow warriors than to meet the embodiment of both cultures, the legendary Hattori Hanzo? He established himself during the warring states period as a loyal retainer of Tokugawa Ieyasu, playing a vital role in Ieyasu's rise to become the first shogun of a united Japan in 1603. How did Hattori Hanzo reach such legendary status, earning the nickname the Demon Hanzo? How were his loyalties

tested as both samurai and Shinobi? And what does his story tell us about the late Sengoku period? Joining me to answer these questions and more are Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt, authors of Ninja Attack, True Tales of Assassins, Samurai and Outlaws. You can keep up to date with both their works on their blogs, Japan Happiness and Pure Invention. You can find the links to both in the descriptions for this episode. Hello Hiroko and hello Matt. Welcome to Echoes of History. Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's great to have you here. I'm really looking forward to this because this is a name that I know, but I know nothing else about this. So I'm really looking forward to finding out more. So we're going to be talking about Hattori Hanzo. I wonder if you could

just start off by setting the scene for us in terms of where and when is. Is he born? Okay. Okay. Before we're going to talk about Hattori Hanzo, Hattori Hanzo is not a personal name. It sounds like a personal's name, but it is actually a job title. So when you talk, so if you talk about, let's talk about Hattori Hanzo, the next question would be which one?

And then the Hattori Hanzo, it's a title. So the D, Hattori Hanzo, that all of us know. No, it's Hattori Hanzo the second. And I'd like to talk about Hattori Hanzo the second here. And then anyway, so he, Hattori Hanzo, his personal name is Masanari. And he was born in 1542 in the province of Mikawa. So, Eager province is something that we have come across in terms of Shinobi before, the Tensho-Iga War and things like that.

So presumably, if he's born in 1542, he's, he's, in the midst of some of those events that are going to crop up during his life too. Exactly, because Iga is a, the village, the locates in the mountain valley, and it's hidden. And that's where the ninja technique was florist. The time period is war in the state era. So there's battles everywhere. And then so the people who live in the Iga are the professionals of the asymmetrical warfare. and using surprise attack, guerrilla warfare.

And so that's the background where he was born in the, he was from. The Sen Goku-Jidai, the era of warring states that Hiroko was talking about, is a period that lasted about 100 years in Japan, and it was a time of great social unrest, political strife, military strife. It is a sort of romantic period, I think, for a lot of Japanese looking back almost fantastical,

which is why you see so many jidae geeky, which is the name for period dramas set there, are often set there. So when you're thinking of samurai and we're thinking of ninja, when you're thinking of castles and warlords and game of throne style, vying for power and unifying the country, that's all the era of warring states.

But it probably wasn't that great of a time period for the people actually living through it. So, you know. Yeah. But also, in contrast, probably a great place to set a video game like Assassin's Creed Shadows, you get to go and play in the midst of all of this and see it all going on without the actual danger. What do we know about Hattori Hanzo II's father and his family? What kind of rank were they?

What background were they from? So he was actually higher ranking the strategist, I guess, serving for Tokugawa clan. At the time, the Tokugawa clan, that at the time, the Tokugawa's name was Matsudaira, strictly speaking. They changed the name later on. But anyway, he was already serving. So when Hattori-Hanzo Masanari, the second, was born,

the father was serving for the Matsudaira clan, later on become Tokugawa clan. And does that put him in conflict with, you know, Odenobanagra is obviously a figure who is going to dominate this period? is he aligned to Nobanaga's faction or is he opposed to Nobanaga's faction at that point? The Matsudairas, well, Tokugawa was an ally. Tokugawa became an ally of Novonaga

and was up at the end of Nobunaga's life to the point where when Nobunaga was assassinated at the Honoji incident, Tokugawa had to go on the run because he was worried that the same factions that had targeted Nobanago, would be targeting him as well. There's a lot of shifting factions and things happening going on. It really was a game of Thrones.

It was a dog-eat-dog world, and there was not a kind of absolute loyalty. There was a lot of shifting alliances and things going on. Masanari, the sun, was absolutely aligned with the Tokugawa side. Leading up to that, I don't think we're 100% clear on how the history played out there, but by the time Masanari came of age, and quite young, some of his first battles are in his teens, he was very much allied with the Tokugawa side. It makes sense because even though there's not much historical story when he was a kid,

but still it's easy to understand or it's easy to imagine that because his father was a serving Tokugawa client, so he was actually fighting along with the father. But the turning point for Hatori Hanzo the second for him was the battle when he was he involved at the age of 16. So he actually fought so well in terms of a night surprise attack. The Tokugawa Iyeasu, the warlord, he saw how well the Hattori Hanzo Masanari, 16-year teenager, fought well.

He recognized that and he gave spear and then sake a cup, the Hatori Hanzo. Yeah, it's like, okay, what's the deal with the sake cup, right? But the sake cup in that era, It's actually symbolic action. It's tying up with a boss and henchman relationship. So that was his turning point to becoming Tokugat Yeas' official followers. A vassal, I guess you'd say.

Yes, it's almost like he's gone and watched all of the young men fighting. And he's got in the early in the draft and thought, I'm having that one. I'll give him the spear and I'll get him into my side. because this guy is clearly very good at what he's doing. So that's his, so the spear was his weapon. The interesting thing is that still the spear exists today. And there is, yes, there is,

and we've seen it. We've seen it. It's in the temple. In Tokyo. In Tokyo. And it's big, very long. And so you can easily imagine how strong

and how strong he was. He must have been. At 16 as well, I mean, that's impressive. I love the idea of being able to go and see Hattori Hanzo's spear. That's very cool. Yes, and you can see it. It's on display at this temple. But, you know, 16, it's like a, we think of that as like a child soldier now, practically.

But that just goes to show you how harsh this era was. There aren't any 16-year-olds in Japan picking up any spears or swords now that aren't on a video game screen. So times have changed mightily in the 500 years since then. Yeah, it's basically adulthood started very early. Yeah, with puberty, basically. You were an adult and you were thrown into it. And it's obvious that Hattori Hanzo must have been trained, presumably by his father and his family,

in the martial arts from a very young age, because not only was he participating in this battle at 16, he was excelling at the battle. Like he was racking up victories for himself that got him noticed by a much older and more experienced warlord. So that's another thing that interesting about, the Hattori Hanzo the second is that because he was a leader

he led the foot soldiers from Iga town. A lot of people think that Hattori Hanzo was ninja, but he was more like a commander rather than the ninja in

yeah, a snobie in his spine work. He's more like a commander Yeah, like a strategist. A military strategist, a soldier, a talented one. But he's He's probably not somebody who's stalking around in like black, you know, unless he needed to do it very specifically for some very specific moment. He's commanding troops, which is why he's getting recognized.

Right. So he's more like the ninja boss fight, maybe. Yeah, well, you know, it calls into question, like, what is a ninja, right? And what was Hanzo doing at this time? Now, it's true that he comes from Ega, but it's not a monolithic place. There were many different families there who are operas. kind of under an umbrella of this kind of Igashu name. And there was a lot of conflict among them, and they went about things in different ways.

So whether Hattori Hanzo was a Shinobi, as we think of one now in the modern era, or whether he was more like a kind of, for lack of a better word, a super samurai, somebody who is just very talented with the sword, somebody who understands tactics, somebody who naturally understands the element of surprise, you know, versus what the kind of

kind of the modern conception of a ninja's throwing ninja stars and using all sorts of, you know, exotic weaponry and like taking the enemy out before they even notice what's happening. He was leading actual battles, you know, of the sort that were unfolding quite frequently at that time. And he might have used unorthodox tactics, but he probably, again, wasn't dressed, you know, with the mask and the, you know, the throwing stars. The black costume actually didn't exist. Yeah, that black costume... Okay. It's a woodblock print.

The black costume actually is a really interesting thing. The... And this is... We're getting a little bit off topic here. But it's important because the reason that we know and love Ninja today all over the world, when you think about it, it's a little odd because the Japanese, you know, didn't invent asymmetrical warfare. They didn't invent guerrilla warfare. They didn't invent assassinations.

There's certainly the word comes from the Arab world. And there's a long... The Art of War talks about things like this. Sun Tzu's a book, Southern China. The Japanese didn't invent any of this stuff, yet we associate sneaky behavior and stealth tactics with the ninja. The reason for that is because in the Edo period, when things had really calmed down and settled down,

ninja were some of the first historical characters that became fictional characters. And there's a whole lot of them in the very early part of the, or the middle part of the Edo period, when the publishing industry was taking off, and that's where you get Jiraya, the fame ninja who you see in the Naruto series. And it's where you start to see this black clothing.

It's actually Hokka of the Wave, the Great Wave. He had a book called Hoxai Manga, which isn't, it sounds like manga like modern manga, but he meant it just almost like clip art. And there's a drawing, a woodblock print of a ninja, crawling up a rope dressed in black clothing. And that's believed to be the very first. depiction of a ninja that way before that they just you know in in the

illustrated books and things they look just like samurai very opulent looking samurai yeah and then before that just to you know you know back to the the war the warring states warring warring state era the where then basically where the ninja came from how the ninja established was that they they were farmers and then when the when the Sangok era started everything was just basically a mess the dog eats what dog world and then so farmers decided to arming themselves and that's basically the origin of ninja and then they use everything in a daily life you know the rake or a hoe or whatever whatever or hot water and rocks it doesn't matter it's just

that's a gorilla good guerrilla attack techniques and then so so the one so when you talk about ninja, it's not just the warfare techniques, but also the important thing is like the spy network, you know, the whispering and information, gathering and stuff like that. In order to do that, you kind of wear like, I mean, black ninja, whatever, you know, the costume, you just stick out. So the common clothes was just basically being farmer or being just a common, you know, common whatever, and then to mingle in and then just basically all ears and gather information. So, So when we were writing the ninja attack, one of the thing I learned and I found very interesting was that those people are business people.

So whoever bids biggest they serve. And then the other side of the warlord say, hey, you know, I can pay you more. You know, why don't you? You know, why don't you just works for me? They basically just turn, you know, turn them back. It just, that's how it's how you want back there. Private military. Because if you lose,

You die. Exactly. If you lose, you die. But if you win, you gain power along with the warlords. And that was the time era. And then anyway, the Hattori Hanzo the second was entire life. He served faithfully to Tokugawa Yaias. Later on, he became Shogun.

And then United Japan. And then that's, you know, the peace came. And then the story goes on. Yeah, I mean, from doing some of these episodes, I very much get the impression that sort of samurai is more like a rank or a position. Shinobi is more like a way of fighting. So you can blur the lines and you can be a samurai who employs Shinobi tactics. So the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. They're slightly different terms, really.

Yes, it just basically hired and employed in an employer, I guess. Well, it's also, it's really tempting to see it in term. of categories because so much of the way that we interact with ninja cultures, like through things like games, or Shinobi or Ninja or Assassins or a class, you know, they're like a character class. But of course, like you're saying, Matt, in real life,

the lines are a little bit blurred. You can be an officer and a gentleman. Do you know what I mean? You can be both. And Samurai is actually, you know, Westerners think of samurai as warriors. And it was a warrior class, but samurai is actually a cast

in ancient Japan. They're the aristocracy, the nobility. And there were, although you were supposed to study the arts of war as a, to be a well-rounded samurai, along with like fine arts and poetry and things like that, there were plenty of samurai who probably couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag or a cloth sack at the time. And there were probably plenty of farmers out there who could really kick some ass on the battlefield. But the warriors actually, you know, they started as a farmer's too, because before that the before the Sengok era started

the aristocrats in the royal palace in Kyoto and they were the ones who had a power but then you know but still there was a there was a power struggle thing going on game of throne thing going on and then interruption going on and then the society and that Japan got really unstable and then farmers started

army themselves that I said before and the Samuant to become the ninja and become a warrior samurai. And so Hattori Hanzai the second, we've sort of left him at the age of 16. He's caught the eye of Tokugawa Ieyasu and entered his service. Does he continue to impress

Takugawa Ieases? Does he continue to rise in service? Yes. So there are three major crisis in Tokugawa Yiyazu life. And then Hatri Hanzo actually played a major role in there. And then the one was Iko Iki that you brought up the questions.

Iko uprising. And then he fought well. But there's not much information in there about the Hattori Hanzo. There's a historical moment called the Iko Iiki, which is... 1563. 1563, it's the Eco uprising. That's what Iki means. It's kind of an uprising or a, you know, a battle of some kind.

And the eco were a group of... warriors who were associated with a Buddhist sect, the Jodo Pure Land Buddhist sect. And it was kind of a holy army in a lot of ways. And the Eco are actually just one of many groups at this time who were not affiliated so much with a warlord or a region, but with a temple. And there's a lot of examples of this. There's another one called a Nagoro Gumi. And there's many, many cases of this.

And this is where the concept of the warrior-moner. comes from out of that era. So what happened once that Tokugai Yasu was trying to unify the first, the Mikawa area, the province. And then those monks, the equal school of Buddhism, said no to it. And then the problem was that his, many of the Tokugawa Iases's followers, warlords, were actually affiliated with that school. So those guys actually left Tokhai Yasu. So it was just like, it was just, it was, it was a crisis for, you know, to have to keep that, keep the power or authority for Tokugai Yasu. And then, and then that there's a lot of battles going on. And then finally, Tokugai Yasu basically, it was just basically statement. And then, you know, he couldn't take it anymore. And so that's so, so, so that was, so, so that was. So that was. that so that incident actually taught Tokugai-Yus a lot how complicated and how difficult the religions could be to deal with to deal with anyway that there were not much information about the Hattori-Hanzo there

but because we know that the many many rulers left Tokugai Yasu and then so but he Masanari the Hatori Hans-O didn't. He stayed. So he basically that means he must have served Togaius faithfully. So that's one. And then the second one, okay, so, second crisis. Yeah, second crisis. Anyway, the equal crisis, the first one, he was only 21 years old.

And then the second one, when he was 31 years old, there's a huge battle happened again in Tukaga versus Takeda clients. and the Takeda clan had huge army 25,000 people and then the Tokugawa side is just only 8,000 it's so small and then the battle was just crazy in losing and then Tokugawa

Tokugawa Iyasu basically lost the battle he left he ran away, he might as run away anyway even though the battle ended in a huge loss that Hatri Hanso fought well and then Tokugawa Yais recognized that

And then he, Tokugayasu, ordered Hattori Hanzo to lead 150 Inga foot soldiers, ninjas. And so that's the beginning, working as a military commander. Yeah, so it's interesting that that comes out of the loss of a battle. So they lose a battle, but actually he's performed so well that he rises through the ranks despite that loss. Yes. Well, Tokugawa is, you know, he's a pragmatist. So, you know, he can recognize we're getting routed here, but, you know, we survived or we made it out because of this guy. You know, that could very well have been the case.

Yeah, so. Tokugai's life is very, actually, it's very interesting. I mean, he, you know, he became a shogun in the end. He is the absolute winner, the entire Game of Throne. But his entire life was just based nothing but struggle and nothing but patience. And he was just, you know, he could have died any time. But he somehow, he was alive. And then so then I think, this is just my talking, you know,

the, you know, so it makes sense for me that even though he's losing, and he kept losing and everything. So it's just to just recognize all the good stuff, what, you know, among the, you know, the things he had. And I think eventually that is just, you know, that brought him to the top. Right. The third crisis came, what he was.

And Oda Noonaga, who had unified Japan, was assassinated in 1582. And he had unified Japan, but under his fist, it was a very unstable alliance that was basically kind of being enforced through sheer willpower and fear because of Oda's charisma and his just incredible ability in battle. His death threw Japan into chaos again. And Tokugawa was aligned with him. At that time, Oda was in Kyoto when he was killed, and Tokugawa was in Osaka. Tokugawa needed to get to Mikawa, his home base, literally base.

That was the only, his place of safety. But there was no way that he could travel through Kyoto, which was the way to get to Mikawa at that time, because there were literally everybody was on the lookout for anybody allied with Oda and trying to kill them. This is how much people hated Oda in a lot of ways. And there was a dedicated faction that wanted to kind of rest control away from him. That's why he was assassinated. Tokugawa is no dummy. He knows that if he goes out on the open roads, he's going to get slaughtered because people are literally, you know, people who are allied with Oda are.

So he's trying to figure out what to do. And Hatoi Hanzo says, I have an idea. I can take you a back way through the mountains of Ega, which is my home. town, you know, my homeland, so to speak. And Iga is, as Hiroko was talking about, it's like a kind of basin, it's surrounded by mountains with only one or two entrances to get in or out. This is the whole reason why the people there could live in relative peace, because it's defensible, it has natural defenses. It's also very difficult to navigate. There's a lot of like really rugged terrain. So, Hatori Hanzo, Masanari, leads this group of Tokugawa and a handful of samurai because he didn't

have a huge force with him through what is known in Japanese as Igga Gouye or the Iga escape. And this is an incredibly dramatic moment in Japanese history because they're constantly being attacked. Hatori Hanzo is gravely wounded at one point, helping spirit Tokugawa to safety, even going through this area, but he succeeds. And if he hadn't, if he hadn't succeeded and Tokugawa had been killed, Japan, we know today, wouldn't exist. It just, it wouldn't So Hatori Hanso was instrumental not only in helping Tokugawa at this really, really difficult, delicate time. Arguably, he's this kind of linchpin who made modern Japan in a lot of ways, which is really interesting. Yeah, so, once again, you know, the same thing for Tokugawa Iyaz, you know, did.

So he recognized his, you know, his, yeah, Tokugai Yasu recognized Hatori Hanzo's work. work and then he rewarded and you know then now he commanded to lead 200 foot soldiers of Igga yeah so his troops are growing and then also he got

so then he got the we call it like a goku you know you know 8,000 goku it's just it's a basic rice thing but it's a it shows you that you know he got wealthy basically he got a lot of it was he was given a lot of

of what reserved Yeah, high-ranking, higher ranking is a castle. Tokugai-e-as-u has a castle. Today is the royal family's house, royal palace, at the center of Tokyo in Ode-Machie. You can still visit there. But anyway, there's one gate, the gate? Yeah.

It's a ruin. The ruin of the EAS's castle, basically. And then the major part, another major part is today is the royal family's house. house but anyway there's a gate named after the Hattri Hanzo's name, Hanzo Gate. Hanso-Mond. Hanzo-Mond Gate. And then and then and also, I guess, you know, the Japanese respect Hattri Hanzo's work, I guess. And then also because of the, you know, the gate's name, we have a subway.

It's called Hanzo-Mond-San-Hanzo-Mond line. So when you go take the train, basically you're riding the train, the Hanzo. It's just... Man, I want to get on the Hanzo train now. Exactly. Like a ninja runs through the city today. So that's a really interesting about, you know, the Tokyo. And even though Tokyo is like a metropolitan, you know, the high tech, whatever, but still

you can touch such an old history. And it's a, you know, it's a total intertwined. the historical thing and in modern. The gate is still there. Yeah, it'd be so interesting to wonder, you know, Hanzo, someone like Hattori Hanzo II, it must have been fantastic to have a gate at the castle named after him, a real honor.

It's hard to imagine what he would think if he arrived in 2024 and found that there was a subway train line named after him as well. I don't know the gate it was named after his death. I think he was using that gate. But then he was the later, yeah, but I don't know. when exactly named it, but it's still, like, because, you know, it can... But Matt is absolutely right. Like, it's his gate.

It's his gate. It's his gate. It's his gate. It's a huge arm. That was his gate, the main gate, and he was using it all the time. So, yeah, so I don't know. It was a nickname, but I don't know when exactly, officially, you know, they called it at Hanso-O-Mont, but today, it's just called Hans-O-Mong gate. Yeah.

I just, I just wonder, you know, if he arrived in Tokyo in 2024, and he was like, hang on, there's a gate named after me. There's a subway train under the city named after me. Well, this is pretty cool. What is this thing? running through the tube under the ground, yes. Yeah. So I guess we ought to get on to

what happens to Hattori Hanzo in the end. I mean, it seems almost a shame to bring his life to an end because it's been so incredible, it's been so impressive. He's done and achieved so much. I guess the big question is, having been so involved with Tokugawa Ieasu, does he see a unified Japan? Does he see Tokugawa as Shogun?

Unfortunately, no. He passed away. 1592 and the battle of Segagagahara was happened in 1600 and then Tokugai Yas officially became Shogun in the 1602 so he couldn't see it unfortunately but he was 50 years old then 55 55? 55 you imagine although it's yeah I so young very young very young by modern standards but you know there's no hospitals back then there's no modern medicine and Hattoni Hanzo was somebody who did not lead life sitting on a couch in his living room. Like, this was a person who was involved in some of the most key battles and undoubtedly carried

a great many scars with him. And we don't know why he died. The records just say the most believable record is that he collapsed suddenly when he was engaged in his favorite sport of falconry, which is, you know, it's a popular sport in many countries, but trained falcons, which you would have hunt for you, very popular among the aristocracy of Japan back then. And he apparently died. Was it a heart attack? You know, we don't know.

But because we don't know, a lot of legend has sprung up around this. Oh, somebody poisoned him, or there was a dart from a blowgun, or some rival ninja faction killed him, or, you know, fill in the blank. It's when you have that hole in the wrong, record, it is just too delicious to not try to exploit in fiction. But all we know is that he died then. And he must have really wanted to see it through to the end, I'm sure. It sounds like it was sudden, but it's a kind of sad and for a really awesome guy. Yeah, it is. I'm quite often struck by, you know, I look at various historical figures across all time and across the world, and you

look at the age at which some of them died and the things that they'd achieved by that age, and then I look at myself and I think, oh. How many battles have I fought? How many battles have I fought? Have I unified a country? I haven't helped any warlords across the, you know, the Ega Mountains. What am I doing with my life? Yeah, they lived fast and hard back then. But, you know, you've got to remember, we're talking about the absolute standouts of the era. The average person was probably living very close to where they were born, engaged in the exact same sort of work that their fathers and fathers before them or mothers before them had been.

and led very sort of quiet lives compared to these sorts of, you know, captains of battle in industry, so to speak. Also, the people wrote that wrote down those stories. That's why people, like us, the modern people, know what happened. And then, so that's the thing about the shinovi. The shnobie literally means hiding. And that's what a ninja is all about.

You have to hide to gather information because it's a spy. If that's, you know, Shinobi's a work in the public information, that means that Shinobi is not Shinobi. You're not doing a good job for that. So there has to be, there has to be a lot of nice job, but which are not written.

And we know nothing. And we know nothing, that. Yeah, I quite like the idea that the only Shinobi we know about are the bad ones. Right, exactly, exactly. And there was no, like, you know, record keeping. So it's not like, oh, well, you know, in another 20 years, they're going to unseal the JFK files, you know, like there's no files.

It's just gone. So that's why this is just only me talking again. But I think the reasons why the Hattri Hanzo, you know, the stuff is, it's written a lot, a lot. It's just because probably because he was a commander, military commander, and then using his own spy network of Inga ninja client. Yeah, so he did do a lot of interesting and exciting things, but he's also better recorded than a lot of other people. So there is something we can latch on to to tell.

his story. Absolutely. I think so. And it's been told many, many times, and that's why Hatori Hanzo is so well known. He's a staple of Japanese pop culture and has been for a long time. I'm not sure when the first sorts of stories were told about him, but certainly in the 60s, there's Ninja Hatori Kuhn, the Kid's Manga. And then in the 80s, there's a Kageno Gundan, the Shadow Warriors, an 80s television series starring the legendary Sonny Chiba, who again played Hatori Hanzo in Quentin Tarantino's movie Kill Bill. So, you know, the reason that we know him and love him and talk about him is because of all of these appearances in pop culture.

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to have to confess that my, most of my knowledge about Hittori Hamzo comes from Kill Bill. Right, right. That's nobody. It's the limit of my knowledge before. Sushi Shep. Exactly. Yeah.

But actually, it's funny because Tarantino has said that unofficially, he sees that as a sequel to the Kageno Gundan show. because Hattori Hanzo, as Hiroko said at the beginning of this, is a title. But it's also a real name. So, like, you will find people named Hattori's Hattori'san. Hattori's on. And it's like, you know, Hattori has become associated with ninja, just like Bond has become associated with spies, MI5, what have you.

So it's a really similar sort of thing. Yeah, that's a really interesting comparison that he's sort of a Japanese equivalent to James Bond in the English spy genre. It's really interesting. I've seen him referred to as the demon. Is that a nickname that he would have recognized? And if so, how do we know how he earned that nickname?

So the Hanzo's nickname is Oni no Hanzo. Oni. And then the only is not a demon. Only is a Japanese concept and a demon is not Japanese concept. only in Japanese concept is it means powerful powerful, powerful, strong, beyond human capability

and then that's what is that was his nickname was all about and actually there is a story about him that I kind of like that when when the Tokugawa Iyaz got involved in a political scandal

scandal incident or whatever He had to order his own son, his own son, eldest son and wife, to commit Sepuku, the suicide. And then the son was only 20 years old. Anyway, when you do the Sepugut, the Harakiri, there is a second to help you. A Kaishakshakening, the second. And then, well, so, but the first part, who got ordered to be a Kaishakening for for Iyasa's son, he couldn't do it. It's just too much and then he ran away.

And then the Tokugai Yesu ordered Hattori Hanzo to be the second for the Yiasu. I mean, so in the Yassu's son. And then so that but it was just too much for him too. And then the story, according to the story that Hattori Hanzo actually begged Yes, and then I, let me commit, said Puk, on behalf of your son. And he said, and he cried, shed the tears. So when he asked him, said to him that only, even only like you, yourself would shed tears. So that's the story.

And that's the only, and not the demon. And so. And it shows that Hattori Hanzo had a heart. You know, this wasn't some kind of brutal person. So that's the story really kind of, you know, that gives you another side of his personality. He's strong and powerful and blah, blah, blah. And then also he's a human being.

Yeah, I think it's really great to be able to round people like that off a bit. So we're not just talking about a guy who is militarily capable. We can see a human side to him as well. And it sounds like rather than thinking of him as the demon, what they're referring to him as is something more like a superhero. They're considering him to be beyond what a normal man is. So they're setting him apart, but not in the sense of a demon, as we would think of it today. Yeah, the hero behind the scene kind of thing.

Yeah. The Assassin's Creed games give players the opportunities to step into the animus and be transported back in time to these periods. If you could go and visit one moment in Hattori Hansa II's life, what would you like to see? Where would you like to be? Okay. And my answer, I don't want to go. The reason is why, just because Japanese people in general, including myself, romanticize that period of the war in the state. So I don't want to meet heroes in a person. It's a fact that it's a brutal era.

And then, you know, there has to be a lot of ugliness that I just simply didn't disqual. you know, don't agree with. But just because so many years ago, you know, there's a fantasy attached to it. And I just totally enjoy it. So I don't want to go. I want to just keep it as it. Can we live in a terribly polarized era?

And it would be like going back to an even more polarized era where you actually kill each other over the polarization instead of just arguing about it online. So as much. Yeah. We just we have such a, you know, the soft heart with that era, even though it's like a brutal-blooding thing. We probably couldn't survive five months.

minutes in that time period. You know what I mean? I'm going to just die. Yeah. I'm going to kill. We're like number one targets all of us. It's just like, I can imagine some bandits like, ooh, look at these weaklings, you know? Like we'd get some goals. Yeah. So I just don't. Yeah. I mean, the historian in us would love to fill in some of the blanks in the record, of course, but actually going there, no, thank you.

No, no, I quite like the idea of keeping it as a nice romantic memory, you know. We'll send you back there. can just close your eyes for a bit until we bring you home again. And just imagine that it was... Yeah, yeah. Imagine that it was still the romantic period that you remember. Yes. That's a brilliant answer. Thank you so much for joining us, Hiroko, Matt. It's been fascinating to try and get a little bit closer to Hatoi Hanzai the second.

I will remember to call him the second from now on as well. And it's been fascinating to see a different aspect of the Sengoku period, a different figure working his way through it, and also to be able to see different dimensions of him, a man who is not just a warrior, but someone who had a human side to him too, who achieved an awful lot and whose name still lives on in Tokyo today. It's fascinating. Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for inviting us. We'll ride that subway in this show's honor. Yeah, Hanzo. Think of me next time you're on it. I would love to be on the Hanso line of the Tokyo

subway. That sounds very cool. Come on, come on out and ride it. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. In the next episode, I'll start my special series examining the cultures of samurai and Shinobi with Professor Eric Rath. Then, next week, we're returning to the history of the Sengoku era with a trip to Mount Hia, the home of the warrior monks. Don't forget to subscribe and follow Echoes of History wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're enjoying it, you can leave us a review too. I'll see you next time amongst the echoes of history.